The Great Final Separation - David Wilkerson

[MUSIC] It's The Bryant Lair Show on WNYC. Good morning everyone and happy Columbus Day. And/or Indigenous Peoples Day and/or Italian Heritage Day. You know, President Biden during his first year in office declared the national holiday would now be both Columbus Day and Indigenous Peoples Day. At least informally, Congress actually has to pass really formal national holiday designation, but at least informally by proclamation. Biden said, quote, "Our nation celebrates the invaluable contributions and resilience of Indigenous Peoples, recognizes their inherent sovereignty and commits to honoring the federal government's trust and treaty obligations to tribal nations." Biden also acknowledged the quote, "Centuries long campaign of violence, displacement, assimilation, and terror brought upon native communities," unquote. He also continued to issue annual Columbus Day, Indigenous Peoples Day proclamations, such as in 2024, when he said for many Italian-Americans, the story of Christopher Columbus' voyage across the Atlantic from the Spanish port on behalf of Queen Isabella and King Ferdinand. Remains the source of pride, but no matter if their families arrived here centuries ago or only recently, Italian-Americans courage, strength, and character are woven into the rich tapestry of our country. So Biden was trying to have a both-hand approach to this day. President Trump reversed that and put it back to only Columbus Day, I imagine you're not surprised, at least as the official US government designation. Now that doesn't mean everyone else has to abolish Indigenous Peoples Day. Many states and localities do recognize it, and later in the show, figuring most of you still know less about Indigenous history than the story of Columbus. We will talk with Monxo Lopez, curator of community histories at the Museum of the City of New York, and Brent Stonefish, among other things author of the Lenape, that was, of course, the dominant nation. In this area, the Lenape, our history, our story, our future, that's coming up. Now, it's been four days since the ice shooting of 28-year-old Oscar Belgal in Marble Hill in Upper Manhattan. This has become a national issue. Mayor Mamdani and the Trump Homeland Security Secretary Mark Wayne Mullin really got into it since the shooting. Mamdani said last night, for example, or the other day, for example, ice has, quote, "killed far more of our neighbors than they could ever have claimed to save." Then Mullin said, "His words are dangerous, and in sight hostility referring to the mayor." And he says, "Well, mayor, if you abolish ice, who will take criminals off the streets of our own town?" I know that block, 225th Street, just west of Broadway. I live close by about 10 blocks away, and I am on that block very frequently to go shopping and use the train station there. On Saturday morning, I was in the very spot where it happened, as I am many Saturday mornings, as I was getting the train there to go visit my mother. The shooting took place at four o'clock Thursday afternoon. I happened to be walking past Broadway in 225th Street right around five o'clock, and saw the scrum of police cars and wondered what was up, though. I didn't go up the block to find out. If the seven shots that were fired came one hour later, or on Saturday morning, I would definitely have been in range if one had gone a little astray. But obviously, this is not about me. It's a very busy place in general. I can tell you at four o'clock on a weekday afternoon, because not only are multiple schools getting out within a few blocks, it's a transfer point between the number one train, subway station there, and the Metro North, Hudson Line station. People are always streaming on and off right there where the shooting occurred. And there's a big construction project taking place on the Broadway bridge right there. That's where Broadway goes over the Spiten-Dival waterway toward the Bronx. That's why the ICE agents went undercover as construction workers. I presume the place is crawling with construction workers now. Now, ICE says they had to shoot, because Bill Gal was trying to get away by ramming his car into theirs, and was there for an imminent threat to harm others. So we apparently had this scene where the driver and his five-year-old, his five-year-old was in the car, saw construction workers with guns drawn approaching their car, and ICE later said they didn't know there was a child in the car when they fired their shots. So on that point alone, I wonder who trains these people, right? And now it's four days later, Bill Gal is reportedly an ICE custody in Brooklyn. A judge has temporarily blocked his deportation. Multiple protests have been taking place. First, at the scene of the shooting, then over the weekend, focusing on immigration offices, Mayor Mamdani is being harshly criticized from both the left and the right will get into why both. Here are two headlines from stories in the city reporter by Gwen Hogan, who covers immigration for them, and is about to join us. ICE Supervisor at Center of New York City shooting named in multiple lawsuits alleging violent illegal arrests. The story says that's Brandon CUNY, who was seen there Thursday, brandishing, and assault rifle. Another one by Gwen, in call with Mamdani, White House demanded NYPD arrest immigrant shot by ICE agents. We'll explain why Mamdani refused even to keep Oscar Bill Gal out of ICE's hands. So let's pick it up there. With me now is Gwen Hogan, a lump of the WNYC newsroom, now senior reporter covering immigration and homelessness for the city reporter. Hi Gwen, always good to have you on the show. Welcome back to WNYC. Good to be back. Thanks, Fran. And also with us is the city council member who represents Marble Hill, Carmen De La Rosa. Council member, we appreciate your time today. Thank you for having me. Gwen, where is Oscar Bill Gal today? Here's attorneys, and according to the ICE detainee locator, he is currently at Metropolitan Detention Center, which is in Sunset Park. This is a facility that I reported on significantly. I started holding immigrants there about a year and a half, two years ago, during the Trump administration. He has attorneys put out a statement yesterday evening saying that he was being held in solitary confinement without access to adequate medical care. And he hadn't been given any food or a full meal in the days since he's been in detention. And they are sort of raising it like he needs to see a surgeon. He was told when he was discharged that he needed to go back for surgery because the bullet is still lodged in his body. And they are uncertain if he's going to be able to get that surgery. Council member, are you involved in this aspect of it following up on the condition of Mr. Bill Gal, do you have anything to add? That is the information we have up until right now. Again, we've heard that there is an attorney that has been on the case and the organization that's affiliated with that attorney is one that I have a long history with, which is make the road New York. And so we're looking forward to hearing more about his condition. Any news on the five year old after experiencing the trauma of the incident. He's apparently with his mother. I see the New York Times reported over the weekend that quote Ariana Montero, the mother of Mr. Bill Gal's five year old son said the child had been traumatized by the shooting and is not spoken since it happened. Ms. Montero is quoted saying he's having nightmares. He went through something he shouldn't have gone through. Council member, is it in your job description to follow up with with her and with them? Absolutely. Our team has been making contact with the family and you know, we can only imagine what this poor child is going through in a moment where he has witnessed something that will stay with him for the rest of his life. It is a dire situation and the family is going to need support. Gwen, do you know why my understanding is they first took us to the Delaney Hall detention center in Newark before the one in Brooklyn. Do you know why out of state from his family or why this shuffling? There's a little uncertainty about exactly where I also heard it was Elizabeth detention center, so I'm not exactly sure where he spent that night at this point, but this did come up in court, and it's something that we see very frequently when. Ice makes an arrest. There is often an attempt to move people as quickly as possible. Out of the jurisdiction and frankly, the Southern District of New York has been very friendly to folks who file habeas corpus petitions. And so we have seen and also there's just more detention capacity in New Jersey than there is in New York, so logistically they might want to do this, but I you know, I don't know, I don't have the internal workings of what happened here, but we do very frequently see people. being moved to Louisiana with an hours of their arrests, where the federal [BLANK_AUDIO] are much less friendly to habeas corpus petitions. You can imagine they understood this was going to be a high profile case and it's unsurprising to me that they would try to get him into a different jurisdiction as quickly as they could. In this case, actually brought him back. It seems like they are claiming in court that he was in New Jersey by the time his attorneys filed their lawsuit seeking his release, which was 1032 on Thursday night and they had taken him out of the hospital around 9.30 p.m. So they are arguing that federal courts in New Jersey should oversee this case and basically the judge in the Southern District who's currently assigned to the case is going to decide whether or not he has jurisdiction to weigh in. Listeners, you're invited in. Any questions or comments about any aspect of Thursday's eye shooting or the context for it? 212-433-WNYC caller text 212-433-9692. Did I do anything wrong according to you? Did Tish or Mamdani, Commissioner Tish or Mamdani do anything wrong? We're going to get into allegations of those things. If you support deporting violent criminals here illegally but not those who are otherwise law abiding, where do you fall on the attempt to deport Belgaugh in the first place? Also, what should happen now? Or anything else you want to say or ask? 212-433-WNYC for council member Carmen Delarosa and journalist Gwen Hogan 212-433-9692. Gwentier article ice supervisor at center of New York City shooting named in multiple lawsuits, alleging violent illegal arrests. Your identifier is Brandon CUNY who has seen their Thursday brandishing and assault rifle. How do you know who he is? I thought ice tries to keep their agents identity secret. Brandon CUNY is a supervisory detention and deportation officer in New York City and he has been spotted at arrest scenes all over the five burrows during the Trump administration immigration crackdown and he was early on not wearing a mask when he would conduct these enforcement operations. So, you know, he was identified months ago through a series of activist networks and I have run into him also on multiple scenes. I've seen him in person. I've met him. Briefly talked him on the phone though he didn't obviously return my request for comment for this particular story. So, I spent this spring with my colleagues at the city reporter reviewing hundreds of habeas corpus filings by immigrant seeking released from detention and Brandon CUNY was named in several of those lawsuits. So, he was a he is a because he's a supervisory officer. He is often the person that will submit testimony in court describing exactly how an arrest went down. So, we learned we're able to learn a lot about ISIS tactics through their own records of these arrests that were submitted in federal court as part of cases where immigrants wanted to be released from detention. And in particular, we came across these two cases where he was named where he in one case he was named as the officer who tased the immigrant during a violent arrest. In another, he was just named as on the scene. It wasn't clear if he was the one who discharged the taser. But in both cases, these immigrants described being kind of ambushed by these officers in plain clothes and masks beaten up, tased multiple times. And in the records that we found, ISIS, ISIS account of these arrests confirmed that they had used taser that they had used violence. So, this was something that happened. In both of these cases, I said that these men were resisting arrest. And they said that the use of force was valid because of the resisting arrest. But it is sort of a pattern that we saw across many of the years arrests, not just in New York City, of these sort of very quick confrontations that where use of force is sort of a threat of forces there, if not like out, you know, there in some cases, guns were drawn. In other cases, car windows were smashed. Sort of similar to the type of arrests that we have now seen in this video, the little video that the NYPD has provided. I will say since our story came out, more video has been released that shows Brendan Cuny actually running up to the scene with the rifle and the construction vest shortly after the shooting has occurred. So, it seems more likely that one of the other two agents was the agent that shot Mr. Balgal. But again, we haven't, is that sort of information is still coming out about exactly what happened on Thursday. And to be clear, you just reported on his record once his name and his image were already spread by, you know, via video that bystanders took and spread on social media, right? Absolutely. Yeah, we did not identify him as the shooter. We said he was a, we knew he was a supervisor who was on scene with a rifle, but that's what we knew at the time. And now we know that he appears not to be the shooter. Councilmember Luke and Inwood, who's also in the district, has a question for you. Luke, you're on WNYC with reporter Gwen Hogan from the city reporter and city councilmember Carmen Delarosa. Hi, Luke. Hi, thank you, Brian. Thank you, Carmen and Gwen, for your great reporting on this. We've been talking about jurisdiction and a question that rises for me is, was a Brian committed on the streets of New York City when the ICE officer discharges weapons? And if so, where did that happen? It happened in Manhattan, which is New York County. The district attorney of New York County is Alvin Bragg. Alvin Bragg has jurisdiction over that slice of, well, of New York County. So I guess I'm wondering, I've heard some reporting about the DA and the Bronx. They're so Clark doing investigation. I'm wondering why is not Alvin Bragg asserting his jurisdiction? Why is Darcelle Clark reaching into New York County and doing this prosecution? Thank you for your question. Councilmember Chu has specific question and an immediate follow-up. Would you call on DA Bragg to do a criminal investigation of the ICE agents involved? To answer your question, briefly, absolutely. DA Bragg should launch an investigation of the officers involved. You know, Marble Hill is an interesting location where it is technically for services in Manhattan, but you know, it is on the mainland of the Bronx. I lived near Marble Hill and literally the address is Bronx, New York, 10463 in that area. So it makes sense that Darcelle would also be involved here. We also saw the Bronx, well, President, as well as the Manhattan Broad President on the scene. So it is one of those territories where, you know, it's disputed right across the street. It's considered the Bronx. So I imagine that her jurisdiction, Darcelle's jurisdiction also encompasses parts of that. But to your question, should the Manhattan DA be involved absolutely? I will also say that when we got on the scene, we asked the NYPD, why are you here? And they said, we are investigating the shooting, but we did not subsequently see them make any arrests of any ICE officers involved in the shooting. So that was an interesting dynamic on the ground. Do you know if DA Bragg is considering launching investigation? I can jump in here, Brian. Yeah, they have said that they are working on it with the Bronx DA, but the Bronx DA is taking lead. They say because of that in this precinct, the Bronx DA typically does take the lead on these investigations, even though it's technically in Manhattan. So they're involved. They say they were at one of the precincts over the weekend. And the Bronx DA has said, you know, Darcelle Clark put out a statement saying that we're, you know, we're investigating and we're looking to ascertain all the facts before deciding how to proceed. So some sort of investigation is definitely taking place. We're going to take a short break. Oh, council member, you're trying to get back in? No, that was great, I think. Well, that was me, sorry. Did you want to add something? I was just going to say in terms of the caller's question about whether a crime was being committed. I'm not sure if he was referring to like, like, there's no, in my understanding, allegation that a new crime was occurring at the time of this arrest. They, as Ice Optin does, will go around to target somebody who has a prior arrest. And that is already being, you know, in this case, Bogal had a conviction from a couple 2025. And there was a pending criminal control sale, a substance, criminal control sale of a criminal substance pending case. And so that appears to be why he was targeted. In this case, Mark Wayne Mullin also said at this press conference on Friday that he was either had indirect or direct knowledge of this shooting of a CBP officer last year. It's a little unclear. - That's a little unusual. - Exactly. It's a little unclear what that might mean. There's somebody has already been convicted and sentenced to 15 years for that shooting. But again, they're making this allegation that he has ties to the Trinitarios gang, which was involved in that incident. So, you know, they, in what my colleague Katie Hohnen and I reported, they wanted the NYPD to make an arrest on the scene, but Mom Donnie was like, we don't, there is no cause to arrest this person for any new crime at the time. So, that's our understanding thus far. - Right, and I have a clip of that and then we have a caller on this point to your article, Gwen and call with Mom Donnie, White House demanded NYPD arrest, immigrant shot by ICE agents. I'm Donnie, was on the phone Thursday night with both President Trump and Homeland Security Secretary Mark Wayne Mullin. Here's the mayor referring to that. - When ICE agents open fire a five-year-old child, a five-year-old child was in the backseat of the court. Thank God that child is physically unharmed. For the past two hours, I have been on the phone with President Trump and Secretary Mullin. Negotiating the release of the man ICE agents shot. Those negotiations were unsuccessful. Just moments ago, ICE put the man in unmarked vehicle and whisked him away. Let me say this plainly, what happened today was an outrage. - So that was about 10, 30 Thursday night at the scene and I guess he didn't want to make the deal with Homeland Security to get Belgar out of ICE custody by having the NYPD arrest him because there was no new crime. But Councilmember, this is both legally and politically very interesting. Mom Donnie politically may have wanted to protect Belgar from ICE by having NYPD or the city somehow take custody, but as the mayor apparently pointed out, he had no warrant for his arrest. That's why he refused. But if Mom Donnie wanted to, could he have ordered Belgar detained, based maybe on suspicion of assaulting the ICE agents with his car and an attempt to escape or something like that? Then maybe the sanctuary city law would have prevented him from being detained for immigration purposes. Or is this all too hypothetical? - I think it is too hypothetical, you know. It feels like either way the mayor would have been on the hook for the decision, right? There doesn't seem to have been the commission of a crime when he was shot. And so it puts the mayor in this position where it's like if he were to re-arrest him in that moment, there possibly wouldn't be a reason to even hold him. So why engage in that type of negotiation where at the end of the day, the mayor would not have been able to hold Oscar at that time. So I think it was just a bad choice that was presented to the mayor. - Eric and Lower Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hello, Eric. - Hi, Brian. Long time listening to the first time caller, I'm a moderate Democrat. How are you? - Good, thank you for calling. - My situation as a moderate, it seems this is one of the biggest problems as a Democrat. We seem to protect criminals. This guy had a record, it's been arrested, should have been deported a long time ago. This is what we give the fire to the Republicans that we want to protect criminals. We're not talking about the man that goes to court and trying to do the right thing and gets pulled out of court and dragged off and deported. That's who we should be protesting in, that's who we should be putting on the shows. But guys like this that have been convicted of violent crime shootings, robberies, we put them all over the radio, you have segments like this and the Republicans do nothing but say, we want to protect criminals. And then moderate people like me that are not as crazy left, but don't want to vote for Donald Trump and that party wants security in their cities. We don't know who to vote for and this is what's ripping out a party to part. If we could focus more on good people fighting their immigration and the people that actually commit crimes, I'm sorry, if you come to this country and you should walk it in line. And if you do something wrong, then you don't belong here. We have enough of our own criminals. But this is who we put on a pedestal and this is what gives the fire to the Republicans to stand on the pulpit and say, how we want to be one of the police and we just want to hug criminals and let them out of jail. And this is our biggest problem. If we can get over this, we can take these guys, we can get the Republicans out of the Senate and the House and get this world back to normal. But if we keep going down this route, we're going to keep putting Republicans in the office. - Eric, thank you for your call. Council member, what do you think about his critique and the line that he's trying to draw between people with criminal records to the extent that Mr. Bogell has a criminal record. And all these people who I suggest, you know, snatching when they go to their green card hearings or offer their workplaces who haven't been accused of any crime. - Yeah, I think that I understand where he's coming from and I've heard that on the street many, many times. There's a few distinctions here. Number one, the shooting, the actual act of shooting into a crowded street in New York City is what we are protesting. We are protesting the fact that when ISIS presence in our community escalates, it escalates to the point of violence and it does not recriminate whether there is a five year old in the car or as Brian, you said, someone walking from the Metro North Station to the 225th Street train station. And so it is a reckless act that occurred on our street and ICE has been increasingly reckless in our streets. The other thing is that there is a criminal legal system that is in place in New York City and in New York State and that system says, you are innocent until proven guilty. The crimes that Mr. Bogell has been accused of, he has gone through a process. And if there's an open case, he would have continued to go through a process. That is a separate question from an arrest that is happening in the middle of the street in broad daylight that then leads to a shooting. I also think that it is important to say that at the end of the day, none of the crimes that he has been accused of are a death sentence. They should not equal a death sentence. So for an ICE officer or an NYPD officer to shoot someone dead in a city street is not an appropriate punishment for any crime that has been committed or alleged to have been committed. - Right, could both things be true? What the caller says with respect to how Mr. Bogell should have been dealt with in the first place and the inappropriateness of ICE's actions. - Both of those things are true. There is a reality where we have to contend, but there are systems in place to contend with those realities. I think that seeing a shooting in the middle of 225th Street was not the response that was murdered in any way. And by the way, ICE doesn't just come after people who have criminal records just near this site. Last year, we had a student that went to the high school nearby Dylan who was picked up in court and in the process of deportation. So it's that they don't make a distinction whether you are black, brown, orange, whether you are a citizen or a non-citizen whether you are violent or not. They are now a militarized presence in our community that does really has no regard and seems to be acting with impunity. So that is, I think, where the protests are coming in because if they come for one person, they will come for all of us. And no one is really safe when these reckless acts are happening in our communities. - Right, so Glenn, if you can put on a political analyst hat for a minute, even though you're an immigration reporter, it seems to me that DHS Secretary Mark Wayne Mullin and the administration generally have used this opportunity to elevate the claim that they're going after the worst of the worst, quote unquote, as the thing that they're doing. And protesters and Democrats and immigrant communities are resisting that. But the Times had an interesting data article with numbers that show that the agency's own data shows that a rest of people with no criminal record have soared this summer in the months after Mullin was confirmed as Homeland Security Secretary as the Times reports it. That story included a chart that showed, for example, that in July, ICE detained around 50 people with violent crime convictions. But more than a thousand with no criminal charges, the suggestion, of course, is it's just nasty portation to get as many immigrants from countries. The administration doesn't like people being here from out of the country. Is that your understanding? Actually, you don't even have to be a political analyst. Is that your understanding as an immigration reporter of what's happening in New York? - We continue to see, particularly in New York, that the vast majority of arrests that ICE make are of people who have no prior-- No pending. cases, no pending convictions, only civil immigration violations. That is in the trend, and yes, every time we see a spike in enforcement, the largest share is people with no criminal convictions. And we've definitely seen this over the past few months as we've seen more car and street stops, which are a type of enforcement activity that I've followed really closely to try to understand how it's playing out. And oftentimes, you know, this case actually seems to be different in that as far as we can tell, it does seem to be a targeted stop of Mr. Belgaal. They had tried to arrest him before they said they knew a lot about his criminal history pretty quickly. But what has been much more common in my reporting is these sort of more random stops where ICE is sneaking out a particular corner. They say that they are looking for one person, and then they will approach a person who has similar likeness and builds. This is often the way that it's described in these internal documents that ICE submits in federal court. And after a conversation, however involuntary that conversation is, if they find the person is undocumented, they'll then make an arrest anyway, and develop a justification for the arrest after the fact. And this type of arrest has been really thrown out in federal court because it's an arrest without an administrative warrant. You know, ICE has broad authority to make administrative warrants. They don't need a judge's signature in order to have justification to arrest somebody for an immigration crime, but they are supposed to have that paper and what's called a notice to appear in immigration court before they make the arrest. But we've seen this sort of collateral arrest where they stop somebody who looks similar. And you know, as though the rest have picked up, judges are increasingly sort of slamming them down as illegal warrantless arrests. And there's a separate federal lawsuit that looks into that tactic as well. When we come back from a short break, we'll talk about why there are protests from the left against how Mayor Mamdani has handled this and what they want him to do next as we continue with Gwen Hogan from the city reporter and council member for the area where the shooting occurred. Comment Delarosa, stay with us. Right there on WNYC as we continue to follow up on Thursday afternoon's ICE shooting in Marble Hill where Manhattan meets the Bronx with Gwen Hogan who reports on immigration for the city reporter and the council member from the district, Carmen Delarosa. And I want to get to the fact that despite all his differences and very passionately and you know out loud expressed multiple times since Thursday from Mayor Mamdani that nevertheless he's facing fairly harsh criticism from his left. And I want to take a caller who may represent some of that. Let's see. Abel and Clinton Hill you're on WNYC. Abel, thank you for calling in. Good morning and thank you Brian. Thank you everyone for discussing this. I want to make three quick points first. What Mayor Mamdani can do is stop allowing they want you to facilitate ICE deportations and ICE terror and violence against immigrant communities throughout the city. The first thing you could do is fire Jessica Titch. If he is not willing to do that then council members in the city council who are claim to be progressive should have her dragged in front of the city council and compelled her to answer questions about why the NYPD has been facilitating ICE deportations and why the NYPD has been assisting and coordinating with ICE in in violation of sanctuary city was. Also there are companies both out the city and especially in the Brooklyn Navy Art where which is public land that is subsidized by the city the rents for companies there are subsidized by the city that create gear and uniforms for ICE and border patrol and I'm thinking particularly of the company called Crime Precision which is a manufacturer of uniforms we know that they were wearing crime precision uniforms the border patrol was made killed Alex Freddie and you know that was made here in Brooklyn and you know that's public land they don't need to be tenants there we can kick them out and lastly to respond to the previous caller Eric who was kind of justifying this violence I just like to say that you know if you're a mother of pharmacist I don't think he was justifying the shooting I think he was saying that people with the kinds of criminal records and Mr. Bogal reportedly has and has had and you know given that that he's the kind of person who should be deported so that all that otherwise does the fines of deportation Brian that will find your defining any deportation as violence are you? it is it is it is if you rip apart families if you rip if you rip a father from his five-year-old child if you do it by firing the gun or by pointing the gun in his head and marching him off to a prison and that's violence you know that's something that is just frankly you're feeding the narrative to the Republican Party I think that all of us should be defending the dignity and humanity of immigrants and and our neighbors in this city and in this country and if you see that ground then you know I don't know what to tell you you're you're helping them in their campaign of ethnic cleansing well we're raising the claims from from each side here and council member it comes back from completely the opposite side of the caller Eric in lower Manhattan saying even people who've been convicted of violent crimes and are here illegally should not be deported because the deportation itself is an act of violence where do you stand on on that spectrum? council member here hello yes I'm sorry yes um I I agree with him I have not witnessed this separation of families to be something that is not without violence that is not without trauma I myself am an immigrant from the Dominican Republic I cannot tell you how it made me feel to hear mullin speak about people from the Dominican Republic in the way that he did and what it creates in communities like mine the feelings that it creates the tensions that it builds and it does feel racialized um and so in my opinion and I have been on this camp of you know we really do need to look at deportations as a tool for violence from a very long time from when Melissa Marri Verito was the speaker of the city council when we had this conversation about ICE and the coordination of ICE in our city with NYPD and in our and in our jail system and so I fall in that camp and I do not believe that the presence of ICE will always lead to violence in our communities and by the way ICE is a completely rogue agency who has had mass hiring of people that they have not even run background checks on deployed into our streets and then the mass firing after incidents have occurred and so in my opinion they do not have the credibility to be in our communities and to continue to inflict this type of violence on people but you are saying even if somebody commits murder or something like that and they're an undocumented immigrant um they should not be deported there I think that there is a criminal legal system here in our state and in our city and there is recourse for those people and though and prisons in New York state which I've visited so many of them as a member of the of the of the corrections committee when I was in the assembly are sitting behind prison walls right now and so there is a process the inclusion of ICE into that mix only creates family separation and violence that is the position that I have and and maintain okay to to another point that the caller made Gwen um and I'll quote here Marada Wadeh who runs the New York immigration coalition who told the intercept that even if the NYPD isn't helping ICE detain people under the sanctuary laws they're still helping them move freely around the city and carry out their operations he said they'll not cooperate or work with ICE ICE on immigration enforcement but then when they do crowd control it does end up becoming collusion because then you're still helping them do the thing you're not supposed to be doing for you as an immigration journalist is that accurate as far as you know well you know I think it is sort of a line that is being tested now under mom Donnie I mean I You know, think back to last gosh, like I guess a year ago when there was an attempted raid on Canal Street and a crowd of protesters had formed around a federal parking garage where dozens of masked agents were staging and that was under Eric Adams and the police used a pretty heavy hand to break up those protests and allow this slew of cars to leave the federal agents to leave the area and it raises a question of what you know what is a mayor to do when it has to do with streets it has to do with New Yorkers who are in those streets and I will say you know for example over at Delaney Hall when there were protests in Newark outside that facility and the Newark police really stepped back for they were like we don't want to get involved here for a number of nights and I was there you know these federal agents were not deescalating they were pepper spraying and hitting people with batons for like four days straight in a situation that was extremely unsafe like somebody was run over by a truck in that commercial street so you can sort of understand a difficult position if you were to just completely remove yourself from the situation and leave the federal agents to be doing the interaction with New Yorkers like how that could go a variety of ways and you know it's a it's a but it you know it's certainly raises questions they again cleared the way for federal agents to leave the hospital pushing aside protesters shoving them to the ground I was there when that happened and you know I think it's it's a it's a political question that is is definitely we're we're gonna see sort of what the limits are and what what he is willing to do what he's not willing to do when it has to do with street safety and so as we start to run out of time council member do you agree with the caller and others who brought this up certainly at the protests in the last few days that mom Donnie and Jessica Tisha are allowing the NYPD to facilitate ISIS activities even though they're not explicitly cooperating with them by handing over people do you is that too much cooperation for you and are you joining the calls for the mayor to fire Commissioner Tish it is too much cooperation I agree with Grace's assessment I was on the ground at the hospital when NYPD officers were pushing people with barricades to try to pen them in in order to create a safe route out of the hospital for when the time came for when Oscar was transported at the very minimum we need clear communication about what NYPD's role is and community should understand that if they're securing a scene that is different from colluding and so that information needs to come down and the NYPD has refused to even give elected officials that were on the scene right information when things are happening and second of all on the question of Commissioner Tish you know I was part of the group that that was calling on Mandani to not reappoint her as police commissioner and there's a long history of police brutality in our city but there's one case in particular the Alan Feliz case where Alan Feliz was my constituent he was shot by NYPD officers and to make the the long story short the deputy commissioner for trials found that the officer who shot Alan was guilty and police commissioner Tish came in and reversed that decision and kept up the officer on and he's been promoted to lieutenant we saw the same thing with when when Rosario's the officer who killed when Rosario who was then allowed to retire so in my opinion commissioner Tish has lost the trust of those of us who believe that the NYPD should be held accountable and therefore she should be removed that's police commissioner and I've put out a statement that says as much we thank New York City Council member Coleman Del Rosa who excuse me represents the district where 28 year old Oscar Belgaugh were shot by ICE agents on Thursday and we thank Gwen Hogan senior reporter covering immigration and homelessness for the city reporter thank you very much for coming on thanks Brian