The Grady Babies Kidnappings, Part 6

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I asked them why I was so different from them." As far as we know, there are no missing pieces in his life. He had stories of his birth at a Florida Naval Hospital. He'd held jobs, graduated high school, and John's birth family couldn't quite understand his claims. Based on what they told the Guardian they were hurt, his sister said, quote, "My dad knows who his son is. I'm angry at my brother for putting everyone through this, turning everybody's lives upside down." The handful of articles covering the story all mentioned John's willingness to take a DNA test and his disappointment when it didn't show a match. But there's an important question left unanswered. What would John gain? In the 21st century, one can't run a long con of claimed identity like the Romanov pretenders did. We have tests that can disprove a lie in a matter of weeks. Unlike Borda, he didn't have a situation to escape. The best answer came in a throwaway line that appeared in a few of the articles on the case. John said he began searching because he felt that he never fit in. Consider the disappearance of Sabrina Eisenberg. She was just five months old in 1997 when she vanished from her Florida home. When her parents woke up one morning, they found their garage door open and Sabrina gone. So was her blue and yellow blanket. There was an unidentified footprint found in the garage along with a long blonde hair. The other two Eisenberg children were still in bed unharmed. There was an exhaustive search of the area and the Eisenbergs themselves reviewed as suspects. ABC reports that county prosecutors actually bugged their home, but a federal judge declared those tapes inaudible and threw them out. Much is in the case of Lisa Irwin. There is no clear answer. No matter what happened to Sabrina, her family has a strong belief she's still alive, whether, as some believe in the case of Nicholas Barclay, to hide their own guilt, or because they are truly victims who have lost a child. Either way, that kind of public hope attracts claimants. A number of women, maybe imposterous, maybe true believers, but most likely a mix of both, have contacted the Eisenbergs over the years. Until March of this year, nothing panned out. But in that month, two different women contacted the Eisenbergs via social media, both claiming to be Sabrina. It seems the second came forward after a news report hit about the first, who sent Stephen Marlene a Facebook message. She listed her reasons for suspecting she might be Sabrina. She's 20. She has no baby pictures of herself, at least not before she was nine months old. People magazine also reported that the woman discovered that her social security number was already being used by another older woman living in California. She was raised by her grandparents. Both women agreed to take DNA tests, but the results are still pending at this time. As many listeners know, I'm from Atlanta, and it's already very hot here. 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And since quints works directly with ethical factories, you'll feel good about what you're buying to. I know I do. In fact, I've already picked out my next purchase, an organic textured cotton peasant blouse that will get me through this heat and style. Elevät Your Summer Wardrobe. Go to Quincy. In all of these examples, the claimants themselves are actively looking at missing children's cases, searching for a photo or a story that might make sense of their own lives. Maybe some of these people are suffering with something like disassociative personality disorder. But what about the rest? What problems are they looking to solve? Like many parents as missing children, the mothers of Tavish Sutton and Raymond Green have had their share of such contact. Again, Tavish's mother is not interested in discussing her son's case with the media, but others close to the family have told us about at least one young man who thinks he might be Tavish. We don't think a DNA test has been run. Not because the GBI or APD wouldn't run it, they would. But rather because the party's involved have not pursued it. We're not even sure whether this claim has been made in any official way. He did not respond to our request for an interview, so why he thinks he might be Tavish remains a mystery. But without some communication with law enforcement or even Nick Meck, where can it go? A definite answer could close the case or close one potential path. But maybe he or the family don't want to know for sure. Donna Green, the mother of Raymond who was kidnapped in 1978, knows this better than anyone. As we've explained, four different men have at various times claimed to be Raymond. That contact began in 2008 after Nick Meck released the first missing person's poster for Raymond. Of the claimants, two actually were pursued seriously and both reached out on social media, though not directly to Donna. They went through organizations who contacted other organizations, with each thread eventually connecting to make its way to Atlanta PD. In 2010, a man with a name very similar to Raymond's contacted the Lost in Missing Foundation. He sent a confusing email, including a phone number that didn't work. That message came in 2010 and tracking him down was made more difficult by the man's location. He was in Belize. U.S. officials had to subpoena his IP address and go back and forth and back and forth through the consulate in Belize. But eventually, they found him. At that point, the official file ends. There is no information regarding what steps if any were taken. But that could very well be because further action fell under the purview of Belize authorities. Thanks to APD's cooperation, we supplied Donna Green with this man's name. And in May of 2018, she was able to verify herself that the young man had taken a DNA test and had been excluded as being Raymond. He doesn't look like Donna's other children or like the age progression provided by the GBI. Based on social media, his age is off by several years and he identifies his birthday as being in early October, not November. Of course, those details are often blurred in kidnapping cases. But outside of pictures, of soccer games, friends, new clothes, dinner with coworkers, you see all the things you'd expect to see on any Facebook account. There's also a biblical quote repeated at various points throughout the years. It's Psalms 2710. Though my father and mother forsake me, the Lord will receive me. He's only Facebook friends with a few people who share his surname, but a little exploration shows the family has deep roots in Belize, generations living in the same set of cities and towns. So why did he think he was Raymond? Or maybe the question should be, why did he want lost and missing to think that he was? We can't know his motives and his willingness to take a DNA test could be proof of good intention. But these situations are complex. Because in between the time a person comes forward and the moment when that DNA test is finalized, relationships can and often do grow between the claimant and the parents of the missing. In Donna's case, a relationship has grown with the last man to say he might be Raymond. Lenny Pignazzola, a musician who lives in Germany and professionally goes by the name One Deprints. As Lenny has publicly told his story, we feel comfortable using his name here. Donna became aware of Lenny's existence in 2014 when an Australian woman got in contact on Facebook. She told Donna that there was a man in Germany, a man in his mid-30s and of uncertain background, who thought that he might be Raymond. We're not sure whether the Australian woman reached out to Lenny or whether it was the other way around, because the story has been told to us in different ways. At first, Donna was cautious. She emailed and texted for a while, but eventually she decided to call him. That phone call led to more phone calls and soon the two were close, so close that they took to calling each other mother and son. Donna's gut told her that she was speaking to Raymond. Lenny's story was truly strange and yet it lined up with an assertion the APD had made long ago that Raymond might have been taken out of the country. As we discuss Lenny, let's start with the most important caveat. We cannot confirm many aspects of his life story. He's a difficult man to analyze. Even after speaking to him over phone and via email, we're not really sure of his intentions. We've read English and German language articles about his life, watched videos, his friends have made, listened to his music and kept up with his social media. Still, Lenny remains elusive. He presents his life as an ongoing state of inertia, that of a man with no country. He says his current citizen status is stateless. There's a picture of him that's been used in a few articles. In it, he stands in the streets of Heidelberg, Germany. He's out of focus. The camera is instead centered on the piece of paper he's holding, a temporary document of identification. As one classified as stateless, Lenny is not a German citizen. But he is also not someone who can be specifically classified as a refugee and asylum seeker, or even a foreigner seeking patriotic. This Lenny says is because he has no country of origin. To have that, he'd have to know where he came from and who he was at birth. He believes he is from the United States, but he isn't sure. It's fair to say that he isn't sure of anything. Here is the story Lenny has told, to us, to Donna, and to various new sources. A warning. The details of his tale are disturbing and are nothing that we can actually verify. It starts like this. Lenny remembers being told that he was born in the summer of 1979. Lenny says that he was kidnapped from where he's not sure, by a nanny, a Spanish woman who called herself Paloma, Pignezola. The story then goes that he was taken. Traffic is actually a better term from the United States to Europe. Lenny alleges that while in Europe and throughout his young childhood, he was the victim of a complex and widespread sex abuse ring. He tells of being moved from house to house with other children where they were all sexually abused by wealthy adults. They were kept mostly indoors. There was another nanny, one who spoke both English and Spanish, who was in charge of the feeding and care of the children. But treatment was harsh. Some were permanently maimed and others were killed. Child pornography was made. At some points, Lenny says he was the only boy in the house and so he took the brunt of Paloma's abuse. He says she punched him so hard that his eye was permanently shifted in his skull and that he was left partially blind. By 1990, Paloma had moved him to Bittburg, Germany. She called herself his mother, though they both knew that was not the case. Lenny says he had been drugged before, but during this time, the sedation was heavier. His memories of the time are blurry at the edges. He does recall that Paloma was gone a lot and that a new nanny was mostly in charge. And then, at some point, the children were gone, then the nanny, then Paloma disappeared too. And Lenny says he was left alone in the apartment. He eventually ventured out into the neighborhood and somehow or other met a group of street punks who he says took him in. According to Lenny, they taught him how to read and write in English in German. He tagged along on tour with some of their bands, including an all-girls group whose English name would translate to deep blue. He also remembers a punk named Pablo who took special pains to care for him. And he says he's been a few happy years traveling around these teenagers, working as a rote and learning about music. Something that he still has a love for and that he views is his career. He was eventually introduced to a band called Irie Revolt and his friendship with them led to his first major running with governmental forces. Lenny says that while on tour with the band, he was stopped at the checkboarder and held because he didn't have any identification. run in lasted hours and began his long in difficult relationship with the man-hime immigration office. Okay, let's pause here and sort through the facts we have so far. We have not been able to locate Paloma, although as Lenny points out, that was likely not her real name. There are no publicly accessible news reports, referencing sex rings, though again, perhaps the adults managed to remain underground. Lenny does not have contact with any of his friends from his time on the streets and cannot put us in contact with them. He says he does not remember their names. In one conversation, he said the punks actually found him in the apartment and in another that he met them out on the streets. We looked into the bands he mentioned. There is an ivory revolt who have bled all over Europe, but when we spoke to two experts on German punk, neither could locate anything by a group called deep blue. And maybe they didn't release anything or their recordings are somehow lost to punk history. Right now, Lenny is in Germany and holds stateless status. How he got there cannot be determined by any source outside himself. Lenny alleges that soon after his initial detainment at the check border, German officials showed up at his apartment, blindfolded him, and drove him six hours to Berlin. There he was questioned. They claimed he was an illegal alien from Ghana and said they had a birth certificate to prove it. Lenny says they then took him to see an ambassador of that same country, but that the man said that Lenny didn't look like any countryman of his. Lenny was then fined a few hundred euros and released. Lenny says he now lives in a state of in between and in an apartment without any heating or air conditioning and without the ability to legally hold employment or to marry. At 38 or 39 years old, he exists is what man-hime calls a tolerated person. As we mentioned, there have been a few German language articles on his case. None of which get into the level of detail we have discussed regarding his past. Most describe him as having been abandoned at 11 by an adoptive mother with no memory of his early childhood. One particular article covering deportation quotes a town hall spokesman is saying, quote, Mr. Pignazzola does not meet the legal requirements for obtaining a residence permit. Among other things, his identity and citizenship is not clear. He is no passport and his livelihood is not secured and there is no departure barrier. He has not sought a passport and has not contributed to the clarification of his identity. Lenny thinks that German authorities want to label him as Ghanian because it provides what he calls an easy answer. A way to deal with him quickly and to shuffle him off to become another country's problem. He says he has reached out to Spanish and Ghanian authorities to help him with his identity and has even paid for a DNA test to try and prove who he is. Again, we've done as much as we can to fact check the story. The man-hime immigration office hasn't issued any statement concerning Lenny's allegations of abuse. And for now, he remains in Germany, performing music and keeping up an act of social media presence to promote his brand. He often post video clips of performances or acapella renditions of the music from his upcoming album. He stylish. He wears glasses. His accent is extremely hard to place, a blend of so many things with a touch of the dubstep vocals that influenced his musical style. And he doesn't look like Raymond. We've asked Donna many questions about Lenny and she answers them thoughtfully, if carefully. She still wants to fly to Germany and meet him, even though Nick Mech's DNA test ruled out any chance that he might be her son. Donna reflects on this experience a lot, especially the hope she felt when they were first connected. I wanted to talk to him and then thought with that hope, like, it's so possible. It could be possible because they said they believe he was sold overseas. So this could be so possible. The doctor just went all the way in on that. I went all the way in on that. So after I talked to her and she asked me, maybe about three to four weeks after we corresponded. She asked that I want to talk to him and will I accept him on my Facebook? Because he wanted to talk to me and I did it. And everybody was cautioned. You'd be dead to be careful. Just that another but after that to the wind. I talked to him. I felt like one nobody else doing anything for my case. So he needs I get on it. So I talked to him and and it first, it was just casual. Hey, how you doing and it took it went from there. It went from there until I think I started talking to him in August. And by the time November, hey guy here because we was talking every day emailing and Facebook and not on from. But we was talking every day and he was telling me about him and I was telling me about me. But it was just something was changing. I felt something and so having said that I was I was just on board with him. Like I knew that was Raymond and no one could tell me the difference. And everybody cautioned me. But again, I do all that to the wind because he represented something that I thought I had. I thought that I had found Raymond and so yeah, November the 6th, 2000 and I think it was 2014. I asked him, did he want me to call him and he was like, yeah, and I called him and when I heard his voice for the first time, I just knew. You know, that was my son and the way he talked and so many things he did. Similarities to some of the things that my kids do with it again. You kind of build that in your head because that's what you want. So you're going to find everything to fit what you want. Donna said that even after the results came back, she wanted to keep loving Lenny like a son because she hoped somewhere. Raymond was getting that same kind of love from some other mother, maybe one who was also missing a child. My co-host asked Donna to address some of the hard to believe details of Lenny's story, the things that we tried to verify but couldn't. I think some people who hear the story of you and Lenny. They might focus on some of the details that he gave that have turned out to maybe not be possibly truthful. And I think there might be a protective instinct wondering if you are being taken advantage of or had been taken advantage of. Can you explain how that doesn't feel that way to you, how it feels differently? Well, perhaps some of the things that he said wasn't true but his foundation, the base of what he said is true. You know, Lenny is a street kid. He grew up in the street. Street kids they lie. They do all that. So if he lied about anything, you know, sure he's probably lied about some things that I know, that's the things that I didn't know. But that's the life he needs, that's how he do what he do. So, you know, I don't but the relationship we have on my behalf, it was genuine. Because the foundation was true. Now, the other stuff to be or from that, I can't say it was true. It was not some of it lies and some of it not. But I know the foundation of his story is true. So he's looking for his mom. You know, so I don't feel like I was taken advantage of because taking advantage of what? So you feel like if he has been untrueful, it would be less of an attempt to be predatory towards you and more of a survival. That's exactly what it was because if he asked for anything, if he asked for money and he did, it was always $30, $40 something like that. So, and I get that because if you industry, it's about survival. It's about survival. So how do you survive? You, I've been homeless, you lie to survive, you cheat. You know, you do those things for survival. So I get that part. What I don't believe and I may be wrong, but in my heart, a heart, I don't believe that his whole thing was because he actually thought I was his mom. And it really broke his heart to find out I wasn't, but I'm pretty sure he came up with some things and his head, you know, you spent a lot of time alone. You create things and you're hearing situations in your head to make it real for you. I get that, you know. So when he's lying or telling the truth or whatever like that, then I understand that because I understand he coming from a place. Just like I'm coming from a place. He's coming from a place. So, you know, I just pray for him. Perhaps Lenny is another Frederick Bourdain or maybe he truly thought he might be a lost infant from Atlanta, Georgia, who somehow made it halfway across the world. For Donna and Lenny, there's no satisfying ending. Neither story is over. But even if Lenny have been Raymond, sometimes the answers are really just a new set of questions. In the past seven years, two different abducted at birth cases have made national news. We've mentioned them both. Carlyne White, who was kidnapped in 1987, solved her own kidnapping in 2011. And just last year, a news broke that came out of my mobile. Kidnapped in Florida in 1998. had been located. For their families, for Nick Meck, for all the law enforcement who had ever worked the cases, there was celebration. But then, what came after was hard on everyone. Imagine being found as an adult. How would you understand your two lives? The one you were meant to live and then the one that you actually did. Carlyna White was pregnant with her first child when she asked her mother and pet way for a copy of her Connecticut birth certificate. She needed it for state-provided prenatal care. It took days. Some sources say that pet way handed it over to Carlyna, but others say she found it herself going through her mother's papers when she wasn't home. Either way, when Carlyna finally got a hold of the document, the insurance company told her that it was forged. She was less shocked than most of us would have been. As she has stated in multiple interviews, she looked nothing like the rest of her family. But her mother was unwilling to give her more information. She just said that Carlyna had been abandoned by a young drug addict, but those answers didn't explain away all of the other problems that then 17-year-old Carlyna faced. She had no ID, no insurance, no way to apply for help. So, she began to search missing persons websites and groups, looking for reports of the baby she might have been. It took years, but Carlyna pieced it together herself. According to New York Magazine, her relationship with Pet Way had always included an underlying tension. Carlyna described her mother as not particularly loving at some points and even as abusive, though she shied away from that description in later interviews. She says she was beaten in the face with a shoe, but there's also talk of trick-or-treating and of good times with her younger brother. And she still goes by Nettie, derived from Nadra, the name Pet Way gave her. Like the other kidnappers we've profiled, Pet Way had a past arrest record, including forgery. Carlyna has described her as a drug addict too, and the man she thought was her father as a drug dealer, though her later interviews are kinder toward them both, recasting their actions in a more forgiving light. But that came later, after she'd met her birth parents, Joy White and Carl Tyson. When adult children are reunited with their parents, it's never easy. They are strangers with connections, but all of the memories are on one side of the equation. One problem is money. In both the cases of Carlyna and Camaya, the families receive settlements. Carlyna's portion was set aside in a trust, with the caveat that it be preserved until her 21st birthday. After that, the funds reverted back to her family. Carlyna was 23 when she discovered her birth identity, and the trust had been dissolved in split between her parents who said it had been spent. And there have been varying levels of a strangenment in their relationships ever since, most specifically because she testified on behalf of her kidnapper at trial. Camaya Moby's situation has been similar, and perhaps even more complex. According to various news outlets, she knew of her kidnapping for two years before the information was made public, and before her birth family knew she was alive. She has maintained support of Gloria Williams, whom the root reports is still saved as mommy in her phone. She sent Williams a mother's day card this year, and she still prefers to go by her assumed name, Alexis. It's difficult for a birth parent to fathom why or how a kidnapped child could possibly still love their abductor. They expect their children to feel the same fury and pain that they do. Carlyna White's mother Joy expressed her feeling outside the courtroom on the day and Petway was sentenced. It felt good because I would never forget the time that I was in the hospital, and I took my daughter to the hospital once she was sick, and Petla was near on the floor, as she was volunteering as a volunteer worker but posing as a nurse at the time. And I would never forget her face. And she came up to me and said, "Don't cry. Your baby is going to be okay." And she pat me on my shoulder. And she knew what she was doing at the time. And she prayed on me when I was in the hospital. And she knew what she was doing. And daring Gloria Williams hearing, Kamiya Mowell's mother was passionately tearful. She has been equally angry and anguished in interviews, repeatedly expressing the same sentiment that she cannot accept her daughter's love for Gloria Williams. During her testimony, she made direct eye contact with Kamiya, who was seated in the back of the courtroom. Much of what she said seemed directed toward her daughter. She was so beautiful. She prayed on her child, and we would not be here if it was a grown woman. She wouldn't have until a grown woman's room had done that. Okay, you're saying because you were so young. Yeah, because I was young and she came and prayed on child. That's what she's doing to my child. Yes. I am your mother, Kamiya. As of the writing of this episode, Kamiya's birth mother was no longer speaking to her. She said that she blocked her daughter's number and that it was just too painful, but that maybe they might have a relationship someday. Donna Green has watched these stories and she understands the mother's frustration. Unlike the rest of us, she can actually relate. Well, my children and I had a conversation last week, really, because we looked at this situation with the Kamiya Mowgli on a young and fixed my life. And they were saying that we should understand its parents where the children come from because Kamiya loves her mom and her mom that raised her. And she's trying to get to know the mom, that her biological mom. And they think that we tried, we should understand that. And I was trying to explain to them, that that may be true, that Kamiya loves her mom. And she was stressed in that she don't know anything about this. Her mom raised her, what was real and what was true to her. At the same time, you got a mother over here whose child was taken away from her. You know, that's a part of her soul is missing, like. And so for her daughter to come back home and call in this woman, mom and loving on this woman and concerned in her tears is for this woman, I can understand how it would be difficult for that mother to accept that because here's the lady that calls me the grief, that calls me the pain, that calls me the sleepest night, that calls me nights and nights for tears. They had me longing for years wondering is, you know, this child did or live and what's going on with them. And so the one that calls me the pain is the one that you cling into. Well, you know, that would be a problem. Initially, I would be well because all is well, you're home, you're safe and you're loved so all is well. But I think out there a little while when you smoke, settles, you begin to understand that, you know, it might be a problem with that. I know it may be for me. For Donna, the risk of problems that might come with finding Raymond would far outweigh the pain of never knowing. Unlike many parents of missing children, Donna has every reason to believe her son is alive and out there in the world. And she's waiting for the moment when he realizes he's hers. Donna is a religious woman. So she bases her faith in that eventual reunion in the grace of God. But and this is the thing you've got to understand about Donna Green. She has not spent the last 40 years waiting. Despite the trauma, Donna has never checked out. She's raised a family, supported a husband through an addiction, buried him, worked long hours to keep her family fed, watched her grandchildren born into hospitals more secure than she'd ever imagined. She's been homeless and sick and without enough money to repair her car. But that's just the start. Donna is an advocate. She has walked into police stations with a single news clipping and relaunched her son's missing person's investigation. She has become a public speaker, traveling the country to draw attention to other undercover cases. She has worked with and been highlighted by Nick Meck. She arranges grassroots memorials and celebrations of life for families who have never received public attention. She's written in autobiography, a good one, and raised funds to fly overseas. She runs a website for Raymond and communicates with families all over the world. And now she plans to start her own podcast, one that will give grieving families the practical information they need when their loved one goes missing, or if the case goes cold. We asked Donna why she's so passionate about working with families of victims. I always, I had seen more people caring. I always had seen the police more of reaching out to me more. The news media putting it out here there. I wish I had seen it, you know, just to know that I wasn't alone and I wasn't by myself. I would love to have just seen somebody just step out and come talk to me. Just anybody. I didn't get that. I didn't get that at home. I didn't get that from the media. I didn't get that from the police department. I was just a straight, I just alone child, you know, dealing with it. Sorry. So I wished I had a seam on it, but I'm so happy now that they have a security in the hospital. I just had a grand baby a couple of days ago. And I mean they had a security blanket, I mean the security bracelet baby is, but you know everything because that's what's needed, you know, so but I don't guess. I know that when things happen, that's when you tighten in on things. You you you you set up so as much as happening these hospitals and stuff they had to come up with something. And so if Raymond being missing helped out any a little bit and it's a blessing. Many people in Donna's position might have sunk into hopelessness decades ago. And that's one of the reasons that it is so important to tell the story of Raymond Lamar Greene and of Taffer Sutton and of all the Grady babies. Atlanta born and lost in the shifting cities we have been and have forgotten being. A case never stops with the mystery. It goes on day by day coloring the lives of each person, the parents, the nurses, the doctors, the police, the social workers, who have had too much time to reconsider all the small choices that might have changed the equation. Maybe if we leave things there, the story seems hopeless. We're telling only as a cautionary tale. But that's selling Donna short. It's selling short every single family who was pushed for justice in a case that no one seemed to care about and who used that frustration to reach out rather than to shudder themselves in. So this is a story for them. But most of all, it's a story for all the mothers, the fathers, the sisters and the grandmothers out there unwilling to let their loved ones haunt the margins of a single news column. There are a thousand Donna Greens working to help every mother who was lost to child regardless of their newsworthiness or their ability to sell magazines. All Atlanta, all any city has to do is listen to them. Raymond Green, now 39 and Taffer Sutton, now 25, are still missing. If you have any information regarding their whereabouts, please call the Atlanta Police Department at 404-546-425. A special thanks to Josh Hallmark of the Karen and Ellen letters in R.A. Marra-Kana for voicing Bourdain at the top of the episode. And the fall line will be back soon. Up next we'll premiere our new series between the lines, during which we'll cover a single case per episode, and expand our parameters a bit to include more than just missing persons. After that, season three will be out. It's devoted to the disappearance of Shikini a pate of Unidela, Georgia, who went missing on September 4th of 1998. We hope that you'll join us then. [Music] Marketing is hard, but I'll tell you a little secret. It doesn't have to be. Let me point something out. You're listening to a podcast right now and it's great. You love the host. You seek it out and download it. You listen to it while driving, working out, cooking, even going to the bathroom. Podcasts are a pretty close companion. And this is a podcast ad. Did I get your attention? 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