The Good Girl to Burnout Pipeline — And What ADHD Has to Do With It

Welcome back to The Strong With Struggling Podcast. I'm your host, Alissa Booth. I'm a licensed therapist and nervous system coach for women. I am incredibly excited to welcome our next guest and one of my good friends, Loody. We are going to be talking about the good girl to burn out pipeline, what we are conditioned to believe, and how we are taught to act, what to say, how to carry ourselves, and how that conditioning becomes shame about who we should be. And underneath all of that, for some of us, there's another layer nobody has named probably for years, especially if you were diagnosed with ADHD later in life. And that is that our brain was never wired the way we were told it should be. So the coping skills and all of those different things don't work for us. And so we've been working against ourselves even more. So I'm incredibly excited to welcome you to the podcast. Thank you so much. So excited to be here today and get to talk a little bit about this. So Loody is a licensed marriage and family therapist and she is also the founder of Heal and Bloom family therapy. For most of her life, Loody was the good girl, the one who held everything together, took care of everyone else, sounds familiar, and never asked for help. And for a long time, that's exactly what she got braced for. She found herself in highly coercive religious environments that reinforce the same pattern even more until she eventually burned out completely. It wasn't until her early 30s when she was diagnosed with ADHD that a lot of the pieces finally started to make sense. And that diagnosis became the beginning of her own journey back to herself, learning how to actually trust her own voice and body again. Today she brings all of that personally and professionally into her work. She's trauma informed and neurodivergent affirming and she works with individuals, families, children's teens and young adults with a real heart for ADHD women, moms and young adults who are still trying to figure out who they are underneath everyone else's expectations. Her whole goal is to create a space where people feel safe enough to stop performing and start coming home to themselves, which is exactly the conversation we're having today. So I can't tell you how excited I am for us to talk about all of these different things because I feel like, you know, as professionals, right, I think that people sometimes have this thought that we have our shit together. And obviously we don't. We're still working on it. We still struggle, you know, in a lot of times we've dealt with the same things or similar things as our clients. And I think that, you know, not only to bring in your professional experience and, you know, expertise in this field, but also the things that you've experienced personally that, you know, have gotten you to this place. So how does this show up in your life, like the this conditioning, you know, I knew we're diagnosed obviously later in life, like I think a lot of women kind of had this late in life ADHD diagnosis. And then we look back and we're like, a lot of things make sense now. So how did that show up in your life and how did that impact you? Yeah, I think honestly, when I think back to going back to the beginning, I think about remembering being an elementary in school and being told that I was too talkative. Maybe everything else was great, my grades, but it was like you're just too talkative or you have too many questions. And I think about this even in the sense of I remember not getting my full design or gold star, right? And so it started to make me feel like I need to hold back. I need to not be as talkative in class, right? So that therefore I can be the good girl and the good student. And so with that, I started to see as I look back just like how strong my emotions were at times where I felt that was too sensitive, too dramatic. How many of us have heard that? And as I grew up, I realized I need to suppress these or I need to find ways to kind of pull back because if not, I don't meet this like good daughter image. And I think like that though, we're happening, you know, at home. And I see now how that was out of the ADHD that I was diagnosed because we know that a lot of times ADHD has a lot to do with us regularly in our emotions. And yet that was not talked about, especially as I was growing up. Yeah, for sure. So I know obviously when we look back on things now in our childhood, we can name the patterns. And when you're a kid, you can't name, oh, well, this is good girl conditioning, you know what I mean? But looking back now, how did that conditioning show up? You said you were praised for certain things in like your environment, your upbringing, like there's all these different factors that come into it, you know, I think it's family of origin and then like school expectations and religion or spirituality or things like that that almost create this perfect storm for us. So how, what, what did all of those factors look like for you specifically? Yeah, I think I was always, I was so big on systems, right? I was always doing the right things or what I thought was the right things, whether it was at home as Hispanic eldest daughter and just being like, I needed to take care of everything because then that will keep everybody safe and everybody happy. And so the knock added to the conditioning. So as I grow up, I'm realizing, oh, even if this doesn't feel aligned with me or even if I don't have any energy to do this thing for my mom or my siblings, I need to do that because that is what a good girl does. That is what these systems look like that that then showed up, right? Whether it was sometimes helping taking care of my siblings rather than doing something for school that I know I needed to do, right? That was my priority, but it wasn't because my mom was actually choosing credible, resilient woman, but it was because these were the patterns of what was passed on as well, right? Well, it was expected. And I think the word expectations comes up a lot for me when I think about good girl things on conditioning and even just ADHD as well because there was these really high expectations that I put on myself. And until I realized I know we'll get more into that it was ADHD, it was always like, man, I just need to try harder. I just need to do more, right? Why can't I just meet these expectations, right? That are set for me and seeing it in that way. And I think that was at home and then later in life when I joined you and you alluded to it, this very emotionally and manipulative spiritually abusive religious group where acting a certain way really got praised for me. So I just kept doing that. It was like, this works. If I serve enough, if I do these things, and when I look back now, I can see how much of this good girl conditioning that was, but because I got praised for it even though internally, I was just a ball of emotion. I looked like I had everything together on the outside, but inside I was so anxious. I had ideas. I would get nauseous all the time. Physically, I was exhausted running on caffeine. So it's like I did not have it all together at all. Yeah. Well, and I I like that you bring up the physical impacts of it too, because I think when we're holding everything in, we're not taking care of ourselves. We're not taking care of our needs. We can only withstand that for so long until it catches up, right? Until our body starts responding. And I think the first thing that we do is like, well, maybe I should take a supplement or maybe I should change how I eat or maybe I should do, you know, a juice cleanse or, you know, something random like that. And it's like, well, is it actually a physical thing that is, you know, needs to be taken care of? Or is our body just like girl, you need to slow down? You know, like you're doing too much. Yeah. And that's exactly what happened. I think one of the things I learned for me was that there was so much chaos in my brain, right? There was so much going on that I generally believe that if I found the right systems, the right fixes, I could figure myself out. And I learned to cope with my undiagnosed ADHD by overfunctioning. You know, now I can name them. I did not think that it was. And I truly believe that the good girl conditioning leads to overfunctioning and therefore leads to burnout. I really saw that in my life in these last what was a seven years specifically, but then I also see it as a therapist. Yeah, absolutely. And I feel like the good girl quote unquote and doing the quote unquote right thing, especially for someone who's like already doing that, you know what I mean? Like it's not like you were this problem child or whatever who kind of like needed to get their act together. And I think that that's the hard part too is that usually, and not always right, but usually we're coming into it already with this perfectionistic people pleasing, you know, already hard working, already doing the things that we need to do essentially, and especially that we're praised for. But for whatever reason, we feel like that's still not good enough. And so then we do more and do more and do more. And then the expectation is that it's like the limit does not exist at what point does it become? Well, I'm doing good enough, you know, at what point does it become enough? And I think sometimes the limit literally doesn't exist because you can always do more. You can always be, you know, more humble, more kind, more, you know, serving self sacrifice, all of those different things. Yeah. Yeah. And that leads me to show a little bit of my story of when it all kind of came to head for me, right? Because you're right, there is such a point where you're like, there's just more, right? And I'm like, what is enough? And it's like, because I never feel enough, right? And especially when your core believe is that I'm not enough, then again, you're going to rely on systems to try and tell you, but really, especially if you are in a really unhealthy environment, sometimes like, it's not going to ever be enough, right? Because people exploit that trait that you have. And so for me in 2019, it all was cute and I was interning at this church. And it was not a healthy environment and it was just like a lot that was happening I was also in grad school full-time. I was doing a full-time student internship as a therapist, seeing probably 15 or 20 clients a week. And I was planning my sister's wedding while also working part-time since as a substitute and living social life in all of these things. And this is what, I think, my early 30s. And so I kept telling myself, I just have to keep going. Do all the things. This is what good girl does. People praise me. They're like, wow, you're balancing everything, you're handling it. You've got this. And it wasn't until I completely burned out that it's like people really saw. And even everything just came crashing down, right? It was like all the systems I had. Because I was a systems girl. I had the three planners to prove it, color-coded, all the things. And I really felt like I had everything organized. I was like, I'm a type A person. But what I didn't realize is the anxiety inside of me that I was fueled. Because that's what I knows with first, anxiety and depression is anxiety was there to hold my system. But I was a snappy person. I was stressed all the time. I was just like, people like, don't talk to her. She's leading something because, yes, I had it together. But my nervous system was so dysregulated and halted. And so through this burning out and to then at that point, really getting into consistent therapy, that was diagnosed with ADHD. And it really even, even for me, right? I was already in the process of viewing the therapist. And I was teaching things about ADHD. And I still didn't fully see myself in that diagnosis. And it wasn't until a fellow therapist that was like, hey, I've noticed these things. You might want to go and check this and really doing some work that then I came to finding that diagnosis. What did burnout look like for you? So what it led to it? Or do you want to talk about what it looked like when I was actually an active burnout? And then-- Yeah, if you feel comfortable sharing what it was like an active burnout. Yeah. So I think when I was like an active burnout, the biggest thing was I'm already tired a lot of the time. So I'd maybe need to be know with chronic fatigue as a part of it because of sleep and things. But I was like more exhausted than ever been. And it wasn't just physically. It was mentally. It was emotionally. The brain fog was, I mean, I guess I would forget things, but it was like, I just forgot things a lot more. I did not find joy in any of the things that I genuinely found joy in. It was harder to do the tasks that I knew. I mean, what school had never been an issue for me? I'd always done well in school. That was probably my biggest clue is I would just sit at my laptop and I would be frozen and I could not write papers. I would cry all the time. And I was just still anxious. And it was like, it was, yeah, there was these things that were happening. But in burnout, I could notice I would wake up at three in the morning, you know, that cortisol spike, my overeating. It was very heightened. And it was very, I think there was just, and there was just not finding any type of really relief for a long for a while in that. And just very exhausted. I depression. I went to a very depressive episode the same time. But also again, I now have learned what's the difference between just being depressed versus there's an active burnout, right? Because sometimes in depression, we start moving and things start changing. But in burnout, you actually need more of the rest and lowering the demand. And so there was, it was my sister and I remember, I think that's actually that was the night that everything changed was we were planning to make our wedding. And I was just very snappy and very rude. I even to the point that I wanted to get aggressive, which is not my thing, right? And I was so shocked by that. And I remember coming home with so much shame and just crying and spiraling. And I called a friend and I was like, I don't know what's going on. And that's actually the moment that everything changed for me. That I was like, okay, getting consistent therapy. Do I need to look bigger on medications? I need to quit these internships. What do I need to change? I think that interesting thing because I was actually diagnosed with ADHD when I was 10. And I think back then, there, I mean, I think there's always been more research and study on boys and like the hyperactivity piece and things like that. I think we're getting better. We're adding women into the mix, right? And but I didn't realize, and I don't this, this is where I feel similar in your story to that the anxiety and the trauma response was almost masking my ADHD because I had to keep it together. You know what I mean? I didn't have a choice. I had to keep it together. And so I feel like that trauma response and anxiety was really masking how my ADHD showed up. And now that those things are, you know, more manageable and better, we were just talking about before we started recording. Why do I use two different emails and write things down in four different places? And, you know, so I'm starting to notice more of those ADHD characteristics coming up because I'm not in such a, you know, fight or flight all the time phase. Is that something that you noticed in yourself? And like, I know you work mostly with ADHD clients. So is that something that you notice in your clients as well? Yes, absolutely. I think for me, right at the beginning, it's like, okay, I knew with ADHD, but we still continued first doing even trauma work. And the more I started to realize as we did that, the more my ADHD traits, if we want to call it characters, is started to pop up. And I was like, oh, okay, this makes sense because yes, we, especially going into flight and the over functioning, that would definitely mask a lot. And so I would obsess over things so that I didn't forget them. But then I was like, again, always so stressed. The cortisol levels, I feel like are so much of what sustains our executive functioning. And so when we start to heal, and that's harder, and that's what I see in my clients, is as we start doing the trauma work, and they start healing and then they start realizing, wait, these things haven't gone away. And it's like, okay, because most likely it could possibly be ADHD. And I think the specifically, I see it in a lot in my mom, right? And women, because I see what I would call high functioning women who have careers, but at the same time, they are taking care of their whole home. And then, internally, though, they're struggling. And again, before, you know, there were like, because there was like trauma and things like that, it's like, yeah, everything that's holding it together is this bonding or flight. But also, there is a big correlation with hormones, right? So we see the onset at puberty, or we see it, you know, with pregnancy, or impairment, pause, or menopause. And that's the other trend that I see is, as hormones change, your systems, which are great, but they come crashing. And now we truly see like, okay, but my main might be wired a different way. And that's why these things aren't working or making sense, you know? Yeah, I want to stick with the systems, because you could then chinderly on. I was a systems girl. I had all these things planned and whatever. So when you reach the point of your crash out, I'll call it. When you reach the point of burnout, crash out, you know, you can't go on like this. How did your systems have to change to then work for your ADHD brain? What did that look like for you? And how do you help your clients? I guess kind of piggybacking on that, right? How do you help your clients create the systems that work for their brain? Knowing that, you know, once you are, you know, through some of like this trauma stuff, once you can kind of work on more regulation and be grounded and, you know, what typically changes in the way that you have to create your systems moving forward. Hey, so to talk about this, my systems and how they change them in a little few for a second. So part of the things that I was involved in, right, taught a lot of self abandonment. And why do I think that's tied into systems? Because like what I have found and it's maybe just my connection is when we self abandon, so we don't self trust, right? So then we outsource our trust. And so we outsource them right to other people or systems as well. Systems are not bad, but I do feel like the big question is, is the system working for you or you working for the system? So before my crash out is like, I was working for the system. It was either the church group or whoever systems were telling me. And so it's like that. That is what told me my systems is like, oh, this is how often I see people, for example, because I self can be a system, right? How I take care of myself socially, right? Whether it's my planners, whether it's unsupposed to journal a certain way, right? Whether it's like all these different things of what is, how do I eat or my sleep, right? And so sometimes I feel like when we think of systems and we might just think of like the practical planner in front of you type of thing or reminders or apps and all those are great. But I also think it's a bigger aspect of how do we take care of ourselves. So what I learned for myself, and this is what I talked to clients. And oh, sometimes I cranche because I remember doctors always talking about sleep, sleep, water, and like breakfast being so important. And I'm like, don't tell me because it is so hard. I would literally do doctors appointment when they were talking to me about that because I'm like, you do not understand that like my brain, sometimes it's so exhausted that I will not eat because I don't want to go heat up my food or wash a utensil. But I can come up with a business plan in like an hour. Like that's the complexity right at ADHD. And so my systems were kind of all over. And so that I had to start with my systems about how do I take care of myself, right? So from back into I matter, my needs matter. So starting with what does it look like to go like actually get sleep and restful. So starting with those systems, right? And the practical things and a side note there for me was I started to learn about my sensory stuff with ADHD. And so creating those systems makes such a difference. Hydrating. Hydrating is so important, but I don't like the taste of water. So what do I need to do? It needs to be really cool. Maybe flavors. And those to me were systems getting on medication was its own thing. and learning about that and how does it create. And so I think that that is actually what helped me was taking care of my basis. And then I was able to rework one of the big things that I would say is breast is what is needed, right? Because in the way I was living before, is breast was like a luxury and you had to earn it. And so really being able to stop and be like, hey, actually, to be able to have these things function for me, I need these core. And then all my systems, like now they're working for me from this like regulated place type of like being rather than all over the place. And that kind of makes sense, but yeah. No, I love what you said. Are you working for your systems or are your systems working for you? And I think that is such a great way that we can check in with ourselves because and I know, I mean, you and I can't do similar but different work, right? Similar but different. And I know that a lot of times I'll have clients come to me like, well, I'm doing all the right things. I'm doing all the right things, right? I'm waking up at 5.30 a.m. before the kids wake up and I'm journaling and I'm green due seeing and I'm blah, blah, blah. I'm like, okay, but do you like waking up early? Is that your productive window? Are you waking up feeling refreshed or are you like, oh my God, starting my day in dread but you're like, I have to do this because that's what, you know, I'm quote unquote supposed to do and that's what I should do. And I feel like, you know, we kind of put ourselves into a box in a way, right? We put ourselves into this. This is the way I should be able to function and then we're also simultaneously like not taking into consideration what season of life we're in. You know, like, are we in a season of life like where you said earlier, you were working, you were helping plan a wedding, you were volunteering, you were in school, you were seeing client, like doing literally a million things. And so how are you supposed to also keep up with everything else? And so I think that also ties into the unrealistic expectations but then my God, how do you do it all? You're so strong, look at you, super woman, you know, and so I feel like it's just this like, I don't know, cycle that we just get stuck in. - Absolutely and I think thinking back on what thing you said about our systems and just when you were talking, I thought about, you know, one of the reasons too that like learning about ADHD was so monumental in how I changed my systems because now I need to learn how to make those systems work for my brain, right? Well, because like, okay, again, and that's how I always cringe. I'm like, ooh, water, sleep. But it's a thing is the typical advice never worked for me, right? Typical advises that go to bed at this time and do these things and no noise or things. It feels so painful to lay in bed for me with no noise when there was so much chaos going on in my brain, right? But then learning, so now it's like, I've learned actually, I enjoy certain type of music in the background or even sometimes I'll go to sleep listening to shit's kick a little bit 'cause I need that. And then the TV turns off and I'm like, it will be fine. The light won't be, it will be like I, there are different times where I'm in different seasons where then sometimes I love wearing an eye-weighted mask or ear plugs, but I've learned, just I know, but I think I wanna share this because I don't think we realize how much sometimes our trauma and sensory things. So when I was in hyper-villagement mode, I could never wear an eye mask or ear plugs because I realized it never felt safe enough to do that. 'Cause I needed to always be on guard in case anything happens. And I have realized how much my body has healed because now it's like, oh yeah, it's fine. I can sleep deeper through the night, right? Having pillow sprays, right? That like makes my brain as ADHDers again, when we learn about our brain, 'cause our brain needs cues. And so I turn my lights to like red light at a certain time and I kind of teach it like, hey, it's that time. So how do I do that through my senses instead of trying to do it through this rigid avenue? And I use the word rhythms and I use that with my clients a lot. We're not really building this specific structure routine, but we're building a rhythm of no matter what time you start. What are the things that you start telling your brain this, right? And I think the other thing that was a game changer was eating protein in the morning and realizing that, but I hated eating breakfast. And so it's like, how do I make it work for me, right? And that was one of the things that I think, even in your program that I did with the coaching and the different things, that that really helped me in learning itself trust and then also figuring out what things work with me, with even with food, right? Because with ADHD, we see such a, we stem through food and we self-regulate through food. And so then learning to use it differently. And so because in the mornings, I didn't always, that it wasn't, it wasn't serving that purpose. I didn't see why I needed to eat. But now I realize, hey, I can grab a protein yogurt, I can grab whatever. And that's a system that now works and makes such a difference for how my whole day will go. But I will tell you that for years, I felt so much shame because the typical advice just did not work for me. - I love the idea of starting out with sensory-led systems. What feels good in your body right now? And how can we lean into that? And I think that even kind of like looking in our notes, making sure that we're touching on some of our topics here that we wanted to touch on. But kind of going back to the religious trauma thread where it's don't trust yourself or your body. I think that part, I think the self-sacrifice self-abandonment comes into play as well. And I think that like we've mentioned earlier in this conversation of the good girl conditioning, I have to sacrifice my needs for everybody else. Therefore we start to not tune in, essentially. I'm not listening to what my body needs or what feels good for me. And I'm doing this thing that everybody says works for them. And I'm wondering, well, what's wrong with me? That it's not working for me. There must be something wrong with me. So then I need to try harder. I need to just stick with it. And so I feel like all of those things like kind of come together when it comes to like, okay, why am I so burnt out? Why is this not working for me? Why is my brain cannot compute? And it's like, well, your brain just needs a different input. - Yeah, and I think one of the things I've learned too is when we start to connect with ourselves through sensory first, it's a safer way than going, because if you've been taught to self abandon and just disconnect from self, it can be scary to go back into your body and to really feel the embodied emotions. And all these things, like there's jokes, right, of how, where do you feel that in your body, right? And these things are like, I don't feel anything because I've been taught to not feel it, right? And so I think that there's an aspect what I have learned is when we start even there and we start regulating sensory wise and we can go into behavior and emotion and cognitive and just create more change it. And so I learn because in this good girl kind of space, right? And it's this idea of you do the things that you're being told to do for a purpose, right? 'Cause it's like this is what's gonna either create people to love you or achieve the things that you wanna achieve, right, or you do the right things in the church environment, it can be like, you'll meet the right husband and you'll get all these things and things like that. But what you don't realize is what gets created is a woman who doesn't know herself, right? It's a woman who is self-abandoned, who doesn't trust herself. And so it just creates, again, more overfunctioning the loss of boundaries. And I think that that is a part where now I've become so passionate of making these connections. And this can happen to anybody, right? But when you throw in an underlying aspect of ADHD or autism or different things, where our mind, our brain is already wired differently and we need different things. And we're also more rigid and black and white thinking. So when somebody said, this is the system, this is how it works. This is how you get to live, more successful or you use something spiritual. This is how you connect to God, right? Then you're gonna be like, oh, this is what I must do. There is no if for us. This is just how it is. And I think that's also what led me in my work as a therapist, right? And I started to see the effect on people and how much this was affecting them and it was like, wait a minute. Something isn't healthy here, right? 'Cause that's not the goal. I, why would be the goal? 'Cause in some ways, we almost glorify suffering, which I feel like is what feels burnt out. So I had to really unlearn, literally EMDR, unlearning core beliefs that to love is to suffer and to love is to sacrifice. 'Cause I really believe that the more I love somebody, the more I self-sacrifice. And now I've started to really learn, well, how do I heal through healthy community and through joy and fun and play, which was so different than maybe like what I thought before. - Absolutely, I think that the road back to yourself is paved by small moments of connection. And like you said, as simple as it sounds, food, water, sleep, those are the things that we often aren't getting. And even, you know, and I know you and I did some coaching together and I think just building that trust with yourself too, like, okay, you don't need to figure out what you need for the rest of your life. Like, can you just figure out what you need today? Or right now in this moment, can it just be really super small? Something that I'll ask my clients a lot too, was like, well, are you comfortable in your chair right now? Do you need to get up and stretch? Are your feet cold? And it's been like a little chilly outside. I know this isn't, this is Texas fall, right? How it's not like super cold, but my feet have been cold. It's been colder in the mornings. And so I've been wearing my nice little fuzzy socks and I like my fuzzy socks and they feel really good on my feet. So even just really so. small things. I think that, especially when we are so used to overdoing, over-functioning, over-performing, trying to succeed the most 100% of the time, we don't take into consideration those really small moments. Because we are taught, we need a complete overhaul. We need to, you know, create this whole new routine, this better plan, this better system, where we change all of these different things, you know, it's kind of like the stereotypical new year, new you when you try and like do everything so completely different than you had before. When really, we need to start out with the basics. What do we, what do you need right now in this moment? And how can you take care of those right now needs? And then keep doing that over and over and over again. Yes, I think that the small steps are so huge, right? I'd like to emphasize that so much as one day at a time. And clients here, we say that in one moment, what's the next right step for you, right? It's like, and because everything works by everybody, I mean, even that simple as breathing, some people would like, well, that makes me anxious, this is overwhelming, or et cetera. And it's like, that's, I tell people a time like, just because one thing works for someone doesn't mean it works for everyone, right? And so I'm, as we're talking about this and we're talking about, okay, I ended up in my burnout or crash out, that was seven years ago, but I would say, I feel like I really, really started living more like the last three years. It has taken, it's been quite a bit of a journey because even after my crash, then we got COVID and that was a whole thing and learning to be a therapist, I was a student therapist, graduated through COVID, that was a whole other thing, but it taught me a lot about human nature as well, right? And I think that there was a lot about my ADHD that came up then because again, we had all these structure and systems and now suddenly it's like, you have to relearn and I do believe that that is what happened to a lot of people as well, which is why we saw an increase of diagnosis at times because people had to stop. So if you were over functioning to mass and now suddenly you've had to stop right, whether it's like a crash out coming from yourself because you're burning out or whether it's like life is literally pausing you, that is where I think why we start then you're like, what do I do? And I think one thing I want to mention is with this crash out for me came in identity law. And because I think as we talk about how do we rebuild in yourself right in the road back to yourself, it was really about rebuilding my identity, right? I realized how much I was seeking other people's reassurance, which is where the difficulty will self trust, right? And I started to learn, okay, it starts with the small things like you said, it starts with, for me, it started with even making food choices. What do I want to eat? And suddenly people were like, wow, you're a lot pickier than I realize. And they're like, yeah, because I always was like, I don't really like tomatoes, but I'll eat it because it's there and I don't want to hurt anybody's feelings or I don't really want to do this thing. And it's like the smallest thing, but it's like, actually, you can't say no, thank you. And that's fine, right? You don't have to eat the thing just because it's there or it makes you uncomfortable or et cetera. And I think starting with those small steps, what first were really helpful and then building self trust eventually to a point where it's like, I trusted myself to open up my own business and start dating and these different avenues. But it really came with the small little stuff. Yeah, I like that. I think I think something that's coming to mind is rejection sensitivity. Yeah, like kind of tight it. And I think again, like everything kind of clusters together because then it kind of fuels that people pleasing and disconnection from self. Well, if someone says this is the right thing or if someone is like, no, tomatoes are actually really good and you're like, well, maybe they are and it's me and it's a me problem. And I don't want to disappoint that person or I don't want them to think I'm weird. So then, you know, we kind of again, silly example, but abandoned ourselves over tomatoes, right? Do something that's really uncomfortable for us for like, okay, I'm eating this and it's really gross and I don't like it at all. But I'm trying to like blend in and be normal and be likeable and all of those different things like even those small things can be, you know, something that we start reclaiming our preferences. And I love how you said joy and play and all of those different things too. Like what is it that I'm eating, what makes me happy? What's the next best thing for me? That you brought up rejections and activity because I think that when I learned about that as far as with ADHD, that was the most life changing thing because I realized that is my whole life. All my issues with friends hanging out with them. I'm not hanging out with them and feeling like, oh my gosh, you're not included. Nobody loves you or just a sensitivity and all these different things. And why does I bring that up because in my during my like active burnout, my rejections and sensitivity was so heightened. That is what caused so many relational problems. But then I will say now in my, I don't have it all together, I'm still working through things. But through the healing and the more self-trust that I have, it actually, I don't really like see it show up so much. And I love, I want to share that because I think as women, we can feel like, oh man, this is never going to go away because again, ADHD is more managed. But there are symptoms of ADHD that are not at its core that do get managed the more we connect to ourselves. And there's different areas of healing that we do. And that are not always going to be there. And I think that's the other part of it is how ADHD shows up and how it affects it. Like there are parts of it that will always be there will always be an interest-based nervous system that needs like more of the dopamine and new levels to connect. But that doesn't mean that it's always going to look the same way because it really depends on how we're taking care of ourselves and the seasons, right, which is like where the connection of even engaging and enjoying community and what that does to us. Yeah, absolutely. I think for me, for me, I can definitely look back and see how, and I don't think it was just rejection sensitivity. I think there was like, obviously, and also complex trauma and things like that that kind of contributed to me being so hyperfixated of like what people thought of me and wanting to be liked and wanting to be loved and all of those kinds of things. And now I don't know if anyone is ever like, I don't care what anybody thinks ever. Now I'm kind of in the boat of, okay, people might not like me and I can handle it. And you know, it might sting. Obviously, I don't think anyone wants somebody to be like, hey, I hate you. And I think you're horrible for all these reasons. But if it were to happen, I feel like I have more capacity for it. I have more self assurance, right? I feel more confident in me. I'm not like, oh my gosh, well, you're right. I should change everything about me and, you know, bend over backwards to make sure that you think that I'm cool or whatever. So I feel like we can, we just interact with it in a different way. And it doesn't completely, you know, throw us back into the deep end where we're drowning, inspiring and all of that. Like we're allowed to still have, I don't know, symptoms or we're allowed to still have triggers or whatever we want to call them. And it doesn't feel as debilitating. Yeah. Absolutely. And I think the key is, at least for me, the way it's shown up is I don't take things maybe as personal as I did. That's how it's the biggest thing that it showed up is to someone's tone shifts because I'm in empath. I, and then that of course got heightened with trauma. And so then I will notice everything. And so if my partner doesn't say something a certain way, I don't automatically go into spiral of like, it's because I did the things like, oh, you might have had a hard day. And that's where I see that difference of where am I at and how I'm taking care of myself and within my window on how I react to it. And I think about how you were talking, I was thinking, yeah, just how much it's connected because if we think about those of us who have already inherited the rejections and activity part, and then we're turning, we're being taught this good girl conditioning. Well, we're going to lean more into it because guess what, if I follow this good girl conditioning, it protects me from this rejections and activity. And we all fear rejection, but that, but that part of the rejections and activity is we're going to feel it so deeply. And it hurts so much that it really feels like there's something inherently wrong with us, right? And the amount of shame that shows up when it gets triggered. And so I think that even led for me for a long time, taking myself so seriously. So I think that's why joint community is so important because for so long, I felt like I have to find meaning in everything. I think part of me felt that if I let go, I might let go of all my systems and everything would crash out. And through therapy, I've learned that we really do heal in community. And when we allow ourselves to feel joy and play as crucial and it's not really optional. And I think even coming from a coercive, co-dependent community on an unhealthy environment, it was really hard to be able, when I left, I had to really figure out my identity, figure out community. But now there was still much autonomy. And I get to choose my community. And I get to find, and you know, we sometimes are able to do that. And sometimes we're not. And you know, we don't choose our families necessarily, but we can choose our friends. And I think really realizing that community can look different, sometimes it looks like online groups, right? Like sometimes it looks like being able with friends that you like to read a book, sometimes it's virtual. And I think realizing how that creates just that healing aspect to and that ADHDers, we do really well connecting with others who also understand us. Yeah, I agree. I think that I love community. I love groups. I love community. I love, I feel like when we are able to really be seen in safe spaces, then we don't feel like we have to put on this front, right? We don't have to be this good girl. We don't have to have it all together. We can lay that, we can lay that role down and start rebuilding ourselves in a space that feels more authentic and almost permission to not even know. like, well, I don't really know who I am. I have a lot of clients that will come to me and be like, what is self-care? What is joy? What is fun? I've been so disconnected from that for so long that I don't even know what that looks like in my life. And so, you know, instead of being like, okay, well, now I have to figure all of that out. It's just like, okay, well, what, you know, like, let's try something out. Try it out and see if it works and see how you like it and see how it lands in your body. And if it's something that you're like, hey, I want to do that again. Or if you're like, that was a one and done, you know? Like, I did it. I came, I saw and now leaving. And we can just leave that there. So I think just giving yourself permission to not have all of the answers, to not know everything, but trust that you'll be able to figure it out. And things also change as we get older and during different seasons of life and based on what our needs are and all of those different things. - I think one of the things I learned is reconnecting to, for me, reclaiming some of my joy and reconnecting with those parts of myself had to do also with reconnecting with my inner child and my inner teen, my any young adult because those were the spaces that maybe I felt like I had to self abandon more. And so there's been, I call it my phases where I've done more things that I'm like, oh, I went back to coloring and doing crafts and just really enjoying these things, right? And just, there's no purpose. I'm not being productive 'cause I've always been crafty but it's always had a purpose. It was either for somebody's gift or something, right? Or, and now it's like, maybe I'm just, and I'm gonna throw it away, maybe, or whatever. It doesn't have to be perfect, right? I think too, I always, again, everything had to have a meaning even a fun event. And so I remember this pivotal moment in a couple of years ago in therapy where I was going to the big conference but it was at Norlando. And so I was telling my therapist, I really wanna go to Disney World but it would mean I would miss a day with the people and blah, blah, blah. And I just feel like it's not right and it's expensive. And remember my therapist being like, it is okay to have through the list line. And I was like, whoa, what are you talking about? No, I don't know what you're talking about, I can't do that. And it's like, no, it is, like that is actually a therapy homework because they can't force you but go to Disney World. Go on your own and I'm like, oh my gosh, that sounds like a scary, what are you talking about by a therapist being here? And I wanted to do that day. I met a friend who worked at Disney there and she didn't have going with me. So I didn't go alone completely but basically with her finger. And I would say it was like changing for different reasons. It was so great to just go and put myself out there and being like, I reconnected, I just was my inner child and being able to say, hey, I can do this for me. And then that started as a whole friendship and then over the last few years, I've gotten back to Disney a few times and I really, I learned from me and I don't know about you, but as an ADHD, it is so hard for me to relax. As a hyperactive ADHD, right? My hyperactivity comes out in energy but also in my mental. And so what I learned that Disney World specifically does for the music contest is it fully immerses me. So I'm doing things with my body, my sensory aspect is being immersed in my mind. And so in therapy, what we started doing too is like, okay, cool, this is how you feel there. How do you bring that into your everyday life? How do you become more present and more immersive and what you're doing as a day to, 'cause yeah, she can't, so this is the only way that much is I love it, right? - Why not? Why not? Of course she can. (laughs) - Well, I mean, she has a mix of things. Is it financially doable right now? No, right? But I think there is an aspect of that and I was like, man, just really now is a therapist. I tell my clients, honestly, that's why I named my practice feel and bloom, because I believe the goal isn't just and goal is to feel. It's to thrive, it's to bloom. So as my clients are healing and working through things, like I stopped to have sessions about, what are your interests? Tell me what's the fun thing you're gonna do. Tell me what you are enjoying life. Let's heal so that we can live a life that we enjoy, right? And I think that that's where I saw my healing really happening in our nervous system even, we're claiming the joy and I sometimes share that story 'cause this to me made it really real with, I've always hated roller coasters, okay, terrified. And when I was eight, my family made me get on, I always say that, but Tower of Terror. And I left roots on my aunt's arm, like I was just like after that, I was like, I'm never getting on roller coasters. Well then, right before I started my practice or I was thinking about it, I remember when to Disney and I got on Calls and Green wine, which is one of the more intense roller coasters. And did I love it? Not necessarily, but I remember getting on it and being like, okay, if I can do this, I can open my practice, like there's this fear thing, right? And just like you got this. So when I did it and then like fast forward, maybe another like here, like running my practice, learning a lot of self trust, all these different dynamics, I went back and I got on more roller coasters and I was like, okay, I'm actually like, they're not terrible, I'm actually enjoying them. And this August I went to Disneyland and they have a ride called Guardians, that's like, Tower of Terror basically. And I willingly gone on in their partner and actually enjoyed it and had fun. And it was like, let's do it again, you know? And I was like, well, what a life changing thing of like I hated this. And it wasn't just because people couldn't understand that it wasn't just because I didn't like it. It was like my whole system was on fire when I would get on these roller coasters. Like my brain for the longest time couldn't tell what was pleasure, what was pain, the pleasure or anything that felt good or a lot of adrenaline in my system felt like you're in danger, you need to run. This is harmful, right? And so that is why I think we're claiming joy and these different things. It really rewires and changes us. - Yeah, I love that you're able to kind of like see that over the course of time too. How healing has also been able to bring in more joy. And I have this conversation a lot is when we, you know, try to numb out the quote unquote bad emotions. We also disconnect from the good ones too. And so I know I've seen that in my own journey as well. Like, you know, the more I've been able to heal regularly, whatever you want to call it, the more fun I've been able to put back into my life. I'm actually doing Diamond Art. I was like looking at my dining room table 'cause I have all my Diamond Art stuff over there. And I've been trying to do some crafts. I tried cross stitching, cross stitching is really hard. I don't know. I need to figure out a different, I need to get a different thing because the one that I did was, I did like, I don't know, nine stitches. And I'm like, this is, this is challenging. And I don't know if my brain can focus on something that's like that. I don't know. I need to be in the right mindset or something. So yeah, I think that's so good. And I know that you've been in some of my groups and memberships and whatnot. And I think that, I don't know, just to come full circle therapists and everyone in the entire world needs some sort of safe space and community. And I'd like to say the work is never done. Not like in a, oh my gosh, you're always gonna struggle. But you know, there's always more of you to discover. And again, just in different seasons of life and even like with the clients that you work with who are being diagnosed with ADHD and asking that question, okay, well now what? What do I do? How do I move forward with this? Knowing this 'cause that in and of itself can be overwhelming. And I want to also have you talk a little bit about your process because you do ADHD and autism assessments. And I know that's a question I get asked by my clients to like, do I do assessments? I do not, but you do. So tell me a little bit about your process and how you support clients through that initial diagnosis and now what, you know, my world has kind of blown up a little bit. It makes sense, but you know, like, I don't know. So how does that, how do you usually work through that? Well, I want to first start and say this area is so dear to my heart because of my own experience of not having been diagnosed right until my 30s. And there is a lot of things that come with that, right? Reef and different things and understanding. And that's like, so I cut, I'm realizing that and realizing I was getting this population specifically women, but I also work with men, right? But specifically women who were being missed because they looked fine on the outside. They had all the systems and things. And so I decided to get specific neurodivergent affirming assessment testing where we're looking at that the brain is wired in a different way. That is not to say that ADHD is just a superpower because no, it is really hard. There are things that are really debilitating, like, again, feeding ourselves can be difficult at times, you know? But it's also not a completely like my brain is broken and I can't do anything type of thing, right? Now everybody, there are different ways that it manifests and I think that there is a lot of things that come with it as well that people don't see and that's why it shows up so differently. So in my process with all of that, I learned that we needed more than just like checklists, right? So the way I got trained is to do a diagnostic interview. So I meet with people for two different sessions. They're each two hours long and we just dig into things. So I'm learning about, literally, your sleep patterns, eating, trauma, your systems because the truth is, most women sit in front of me and they're like, oh yeah, I never lose my keys. And I'm like, cool, exactly tell me where you put them and what does the color coded system look like? And they're like, wait, why are you calling me out, right? Or what does this look like? And it's like, yes, because on a checklist, if I were just to ask you a typical assessment, you would say no to a lot of these things. But then when I'm actually asking you and how it changes and what would happen to your system for God, that's when you start to see it. And I decided to do. ADHD notches them because they actually come in hand a lot, and again, in women in that or maybe more where they've gotten good grades a lot or where we call the Gert term gifted, it's masked a lot. It's masked by people pleasing and fawning, and so really looking at that, and so I try to take the time so that we can understand, and while people are even doing the assessment, I'm also teaching on some of the things that they have, or their systems are routine that are already working and even including things with hormones because that is what we see. I see a change in that as well, and so I think in that space, and I have another session where it's like, "Hey, here's the feedback, and that's one of my favorites. I make a whole little presentation on my TV, and we go through it, and I just see that moment of the aha moment of like, "Whoa, there is a word for this, all right, so I do a strange phase, so we talk about the strength that I discover that people have, depending on the diagnosis, and then we talk about, okay, now what does this look like? Part of the systems that are already working, what not, and then if they desire, people stay on with me to do some of the work where now we're really, I love doing sensory profiles with people, really teaching, what do we do with our brain when it's wired, this way? I really teach about interest-based nervous system, so it's like when we know that, then we know that we're not going to be, maybe do things the same way, and then that's okay, and so yeah. I love that. I think a lot of times people want information, and so you know, you get on TikTok or you ask chat GPT, which I don't think is bad necessarily, there's nothing inherently wrong or that, but I think that having somebody to ask the questions that people aren't asking or to notice those patterns that aren't getting picked up just by your standard ADHD assessment checklist, which can be a good baseline for some people. But like you said, I think it's funny that you said you lost your keys whenever I was initially meeting with my new psych-NP about getting on medication. She was asking, you know, I told her I was like, I've been diagnosed, I've never been medicated, I'm interested in medication, like I'm not sure if it'll help me or whatever, and she was like, okay, so she was asking me some questions, and she was like, well, do you ever lose things or anything else like, no, I'm pretty organized because in my mind, I am. And anyways, I walked out of her office, I ended up leaving, I feel like they never leave my canteen, right? Like my canteen's like my emotional support water, and I left it in her office and I didn't realize it. And so she texted me and she was like, hey, by the way, you left your drink here and I was like, okay, so maybe I do lose things or maybe I do leave things like, and I just don't realize it because nobody's asked me those questions before. You know, like nobody's asking me like, okay, where are your keys or where do you put them? Well, it depends. Sometimes I'll put them in my purse, sometimes I put them in my closet. Why? I don't know why they go in my closet. Sometimes they're in this chair, sometimes they're in that chair, sometimes they're on the desk. Like, I don't know, it depends on how it's making sense in my brain, which doesn't make sense to anyone else except for me, and so it's just so like, you know, I love that you are so thorough in what you do because I think that that is why a lot of times it has just gotten missed because we have it together and you know, dependable, like all of those different things. But when you strip all of that away, like, how is your brain actually operating? What does it actually look like? Anyway, my brain, sometimes I tell my husband, I'm like, I wish that I could just like put you inside of my brain just so you could see, just so it could like make sense to you. It's like, I don't know if I want to go in there. The other part that I don't know if you found this is their fist, right? But I always is like, we all inherently think everybody thinks like us. We understand the concept that everybody thinks differently, but I don't think we really fully understand that, right? And so I see that with clients a lot, and so when we're asking questions, they're like, but doesn't everybody do that, doesn't everybody calculate things that way or doesn't everybody have trouble starting an easy task? And it's like, no, actually, not really. Doesn't everybody wait to last minute to use the restroom? Well, not really. There's that slow interception, right? There's these different reasons for things. And I think I just like love seeing those aha moments of slain and sharing. And for me, it even started with, because I did start with doing assessments. And I would see screeners, I would not assessments with screeners for my teenagers and kids, because I can notice things, and then I do, you know, refer them out, just for different reasons. I only do adults right now. But every time I did them with parents, one of the parents would be nodding their head, or they would be telling, ah, you, you, that's so you, huh, huh? Oh, mom, that sounds like you and the mom's like, that's normal, though. And I would be like, well, if it's once in a while, but if it's in every day thing, that's actually, and they're like, well, I'll do it. And so I started to realize how often that was happening. And that's what really led me to being like, let's explore this more, right? And now I think I have found a passion for again, I do adults, and there's, but specifically a woman. And I would say even tying it into the good girl thing, because in this good girl conditioning, you are also conditioned on how to answer things and how to come off as this person organized, has it all together. And that's where I do feel like I, what I offer is I come in, and I'm like, I get it. I am not going to shame you for it, but I'm going to see deeper. And I'm going to make you a little uncomfortable, because I'm going to see beyond your typical answer. And I'm going to push so that we can actually figure out what's underneath, because I'm not going to waste your time, and then you're going to leave and be like, oh, well, that was nothing, because that's one of the fear a lot of people have. It's like, well, what if I'm making it up? What do I have an diagnosis, and I tell people, I think it's important, and I do believe in information and screeners and things like that, because it does help. But I think if you already are thinking it, and there's a lot of things that you've related to it, it probably is worth to be a says, just for your own answers, right? And even for me, I offer where it's a diagnosis for yourself, and just the letter, and really about understanding. And then there's a whole full report and everything, because people often wonder, why do I need to as an adult? Because yes, you can actually have work accommodations or things, but not everybody necessarily wants that. Yeah. No, I think that your process is so good. I love that you offer that, and I'm going to be, for sure, putting all of your information on how people can contact you. They're interested in a screening, or want to talk to you a little bit more, have any questions about that. I'm going to put your website in the show notes. So as we wrap up today, I want to ask you, what is one thing that listeners, that these strong, but struggling women that are tuning in today, what would be a takeaway for them? One thing that you would give advice, or if they feel like, okay, well, I can recognize myself as, like, this good girl conditioning, but like, I don't know how to get out, and what if I'm ADHD, right, like, kind of coming to this conclusion of what, like, what now, what would be something that you would want them to know? I think my one takeaway would be, you are enough to trust that. Why do I say that? Because I think, like, the actual takeaway is trust yourself, right? Even if it's the smallest thing, but the core of it, I believe, is really believing that you are enough, right? Because the good girl conditioning really, and even with ADHD, we either feel like we're too much or we're not enough, right? So when we are able to really hold on to that, believe it, hey, I'm enough, I'm enough as I am, I'm enough, everything else I feel like comes from that. And then what has been, like, you know, actually practically looked like, I do think it's the starting to trust yourself in the smallest way. So I would say today, when you're going to go get ready, right? And for me, I was like, do I want to wear this? And like, sometimes people say red because I'm wearing a red shirt, they're like red, it's for anger in this. But I'm like, I really like the color red, it makes me feel really confident. You know what? I'm going to trust myself, but that's what I want to choose, right? So even for you, is it wearing a bold lip color, right? That you're like, oh, but I need to get my friends advice, right? Is it the meal that you want to eat? Is it just what's the music that you want to listen to, right? Or that fear of what all other people think? But if you post that reel that you've been having in your stories, right? The different things of just that small way of just trusting yourself, sorry, in the small things. And then that starts to build up, right? It starts to build up more and more. I love that. Yes. Doing something that is just for you. I think that's kind of a big theme for today too, like what is something that you like? It's just for you that you can do that has nothing to do with anybody else. So I know we all still struggle sometimes with survival mode or falling back into patterns where do you find yourself still stuck in survival mode? How does that show up for you today? Yeah. It's when I'm really stressed or triggered when I notice it, right, more. I think in what does it look like now? I can identify it is when I'm overbooking myself, if I'm not sleeping. So again, my core pillars, if I'm not taking care of myself, is when I notice myself launching into survival mode by stress or triggers, right? Because triggers happen, right? There's different things that I've experienced, but not always a trigger completely to regulate. I mean, I can identify it and move on or stress, right? There's stress every day. But what launches me into that survival mode is if I haven't, if I've self-abandoned and I haven't been taking care of my needs. And so that's when I notice they write and it looks like in a practical way, the overbooking, the lack of sleep, the snappiness and just like missing meals, you know, skipping things out. There's a lot of forgetfulness and that's where I start to notice it at all and start over-functioning as well. And that's what it says, the ways it can still show up. Now it takes me, it's quicker to understand it. I'm like, oh, that's what I'm feeling. And sometimes it's like a lot of emotions and I'm like crying, I think it also has to do with my cycle, and those faces and recognizing, okay, What is what? I also think that's why it's so important when we label things. Like, oh, I just got triggered, I'm in survival mode. What do I need to do? So a lot of times for me, it's fine safety. For me, safety has become connecting with myself and connecting with others. So I've done a lot of somatic work that has helped me to reconnect to my body and enjoy joy and play helped me to connect to myself and then connect to others. And that's what I like pulls me out of then the survival mode. - Yeah, no, I love that. I think the more that you start listening to yourself and start getting in tune, the more you're able to be like, there you are, hey girl, hey survival mode, we're here. What are we gonna do? So I think it becomes less of like, oh my gosh, I'm in survival mode and I need to do all these things and like, there's the pattern. So what is that shift that I need to do? They'll help me to bring me back to me in this moment. And then last question, I got these out of order. What would you tell the version of you before you knew any of this, like before your diagnosis, before you knew about good girl conditioning, before you knew the patterns? Like what would you tell that version of yourself? - I mean, that feels full circle. What would it tell myself? I think specifically the 2019 movie, I would tell her that she doesn't have to do it all to learn love or to be enough, right? That she's already enough as she is. I would tell her that there's actual explanation for maybe her responses or the way that she reacts and processes things. But most of all, I would tell her to trust herself because she already knows that she wants to leave unhealthy environments that not to be scared, that even though she'll have to restart and rebuild her identity, that that will actually create just so much beauty out of it, right? That she will have her own life and things will be better than she can imagine, but I think really that core of, hey, you're enough. You don't have to earn it, trust yourself. - I love that. It's so interesting. The last episode I did with, and it was another therapist friend too, it kind of all came back to self-trust in that episode as well. And so I feel like that's gonna be, maybe that's our theme, maybe that's our guest theme for this season. - I think something from your, what I've learned from you and the teaching you do and in your groups, right? And I think it's so much about self-trust and I wonder if we're talking like that is something that I feel you really teach and are passionate about and so we connect to the different things, right? And because that is ultimately the more we trust ourselves, the more we connect with ourselves, the more we can then connect with others. And there's just so much healing that happens and that. So just thinking even for all that you do that allows us to have resources on how to learn to do that. - Yeah, of course. I think it's such a big component and I know it was a game changer, in a life changer game changer, right for me too, like when I was like, oh, I can actually trust myself and know that I can make decisions for me and go with that and not feel like I'm running around like a chicken without a head. Although I do still feel like that sometimes, but I trust that I'll be able to find my head maybe. - Well, yeah, thank you so much for being on the show. I really appreciate you taking the time. I know a lot of women that listen to the podcast struggle with feeling like they have to be the good girl, feeling like they have to do all of the things, feeling maybe a little concerned that they might have ADHD, but don't really know where to go or how to get assessed. So I'm glad that you are able to be a resource and I really appreciate you being here. - Thank you so much for having me here. - All right. Well, that is it for our show today. Thank you for tuning in and new episodes will drop every Friday.