The Gondolier

This is Rady Lab, I'm Storm Wheeler, the executive editor here at the show. And I want to play you an episode today that we first put out in 2017. And the reason is because I still think about this story all the time. It was both a real challenge and a joy to work on. Because it's the story of a person who had to face off against literally the entire world, against our most ingrained ways of seeing the world and each other all just to be who they really are. That person is named Alex Hi. And in this episode, we meet Alex sort of in the middle of that struggle. And as you'll hear in the show, it doesn't end at the end of this story. So I got a hold of Alex to find out what happened next. So if you stick around for the end, you'll hear Alex telling me about a whole second act to this story, which honestly I found very moving. But first, I'm just going to play you the original piece, which is called the Gondelier. Hey, I'm Chad Abumrod. I'm Robert Krollrich. This is Radio Lab. Today we have the story of just how hard it can be to be who you actually are when it seems like the entire world is doing its best to make you who you actually aren't. Well, I guess I could, I mean, this could be too many details. But the story starts for us with reporter David Conrad. So for me, it was back in late 2014. I was living in Philadelphia as a grad student and at the time, David was flying for jobs. And one of the jobs he was applying for was at a radio show that was doing a series about international women's issues. And so I had this on my mind and I was taking a bus to the university and I just overheard somebody talking about their recent trip to Venice. And of course, the classic tourist thing to do when you go to Venice is to take a ride on the canal boats, the Gondolas. You know, go down the canal, maybe someone sings you a famous song. It's very romantic. In any case, the person sitting on the bus next to David was telling their friend that they had taken a gondola ride with this first-ever woman gondolaire in Venice. Yeah. And then we were like poking around and we realized like how. But how did this become a Wii? No. Who are you? I'm Kristen. Kristen Clark, also a journalist and radio producer. And she and David are partners and collaborators. I mean, and this is what was interesting is like, we realized like how big a deal it is to be a female gondolaire. This is like, it's like a 900-year-old tradition. 900 here. Yeah. And it's always past father-son, father-son, father-son or like uncle nephew down the line. So this has been no ladies now, no ladies, then no ladies ever? No ladies in 900 years. Yeah. Just think about that for a second. Almost a thousand years of all men, men, men, men, men, and then one day you get a woman. Right. As a headline, women breaks through 900-year-old glass ceiling. I thought that sounds like a good pitch. Are you kidding? It sounds like God kissed you on the left. Exactly. It sounded like the perfect empowerment story, I guess. Yeah. And so we're kind of just like Googling it and like, it's all over the media. It seemed like every outlet from the Guardian to the New York Times to the Financial Times to the Cedar Rapids Gazette. It made it all the way to Cedar Rapids. Yeah. To Newspapers in Germany and China and Australia. And they all, all the articles laid out the same basic story. It was this Algerian woman from Germany named Alex Hay, showed up in Venice 20 years ago, got around a Gondolier's association that never wanted to see a woman become a Gondolier. And eventually became the first ever female Gondolier of Venice. The whole thing, of course, sparking this giant gender war. But that was sort of it. Pretty much the headline and a picture was the story. Many of the articles didn't actually have all that many quotes from Alex. And so for me, it sounded like a great simple opportunity to go back and tell a deeper story. Yeah. Just like, who is this person? I would somebody be so hell-bent on getting into this club that just so clearly does not want them. Yeah. So we, we email Alex. Just, we're interested in your story. We're wondering if you might be willing to spend a few days with us this summer. And I was hoping it would just be like, yes, I'm happy to meet with you for a couple hours. And that would have been great. But we got to email back right away that said, if you come do this story, you have to spend a week with me. A week? Yeah. And then there are all these questions about like, who we were as journalists. What our purpose was and a bunch of demands. You have to stay in the city. You can't stay in like one of the suburbs in Margarita even though it's cheaper. Like, you have to be in the city. I want to hear these sounds at this time. I have a vision for things. Did you have the sense that there was something a little odd? Yeah. And I mean, the message was definitely, I want to tell a different story. Did you have any idea what that meant? No idea. But we had that. I had that at Kauena in my head. All right. [INAUDIBLE] So we flew to the Venice Airport. It took a bus to city center. I was really fast. We stepped off the bus. And you could smell the salt in there from the Grand Canal. And it was kind of raining a little bit. It was around midnight. We're kind of getting our bearings, grabbing our bags and we look up and across the barking lot. There's Alex. Standing under a lamp post, just leaning against it with a cigarette. Smoke kind of curling up into the light of the street lamp. Short hair. Dark. It was slipped back. Do you think you were in a Fellini movie? Honestly, I didn't know what to think. This person was legit under a lamp, smoking. [LAUGHS] Hi. How are you? Good. Good. Hey, Evan. You guys travel so quick. And up close, Alex looked taller than I expected. The strong build, kind of a face that was a little weathered, like someone who works outside all day on the water. We're finishing quite late, so when you call it, it just finished all. Oh, perfect. Almost you've light. It was good. It was long. We flew to Moscow first, which is-- And since it was late, we made a plan with Alex to meet up at 5.45 pm the next day. On the steps of La Finice Opera House. Oh, okay. Beautiful to go out for a house. Yeah. I was rushing out to find you, so I left all the mess in the gondola, and usually it's not like-- So anyway, the plan was to go out on a gondola ride. Which was one of Alex's demands in that first email. Okay. So we walk around the corner to where the gondola is parked. And-- Oh, my gosh. The boat was just like shining. So the gondola was made for three people. Lawn, narrow, jet black. This was where the noble couple was sitting. Antique cushions, golden trim. And over there there was the servant sitting. Alex had had it about 12 years. It was already quite an old boat when I got it. You know how to name? This is called Pegasus. Pegasus. And you choose it? Yes. Yes, of course. All right. So if you want to come in, raise one step. So we climb into the boat, sit a little over there. And Alex stands at the back, holding the oar. And we're down sitting in the lower seats, kind of just like pointing the microphone up. Alex, I know you were just telling us how annoying it is when people snap pictures. So I can't buy take photographs every once in a while. No. You came here to study at first? No, it's not what I said. And it was pretty much immediately clear that it was not going to be an easy interview. You came here when you studied-- I know, I know. But I was wondering. I'm the wrong. Right. You need to do a lot of taxes. Yeah, we had a notebook full of questions and things that we had pulled from all these articles we dread. And that pretty quickly became useless. That's what I was asking though, is you didn't come back. And whenever I asked about being the first female, Gondolier, the first woman in 900 years to do this-- Oh, it's a North Star. What's that? You can read that everywhere on the net, I mean, so such an over and over and over and over. It's all set already. Why would we need to repeat things which are already done? This is a very frequent journalism problem. Like, you become boring to the person you're interviewing, and you start flailing. Exactly, and we were. We were like, uh-- You don't have anything more. Why are we here? How-- what do you do? You know, we just thought, maybe we should just be quiet, probably. We are about to make the nightest turn. I haven't ever seen in a 30-foot boat. But we moved away from the tourist centers of the city and into these smaller canals. And-- As we go. around these tight turns. Alex would sing out to let the other boats know that we were coming. You know we go under these beautiful archways, past hidden gardens. You don't necessarily need eyes in order to appreciate a gondola tour. Every channel has a different sound. Some germs here have a lot of birds singing. Sometimes they fly in your face. So this is a beautiful entrance here to show you. At one point our gondola cuts through this rectangle of light. Shining from an open kitchen door. It was nice. I mean this side of Venice was unexpected and really beautiful but the whole time we were sitting on our notepads and we were definitely quietly panicking. Well you know at the end. You know I didn't know this at the time but I thought there was some you know I was like yeah maybe you're a little too young and I think Alex was testing us. It may be a little bit too uh you don't have enough experience maybe. That was my concern. What I liked the uh I liked the enthusiasm and I liked the uh there was an honesty which I liked. Did you ever figure out what you were being um sussed out for or what was going on there? No for sure not on the boat but we we actually made plans to go out to dinner that night. And considering how the boat ride went we thought at this point we should return the square one and leave the recorder at home and just try and have a conversation. Anyway we sit down outside and very few people are in the restaurant were the only table outside. They had to open. And when we got there too we should say we met Alex's girlfriend right? Yeah and we're making think we're just kind of making small talk and yeah it turns out turns out Alex's girlfriend is a photographer and she'd done this photo essay of Alex. And the photos are really striking like one of them Alex is just like drowning under the water um there's one that's just like Alex's back as to the camera. This ripped muscular back yeah like arms played like looking out the window over the city of Venice. Venice is lone defender just like so bad ass and like kind of like superhero style. So we were just chatting about the photos and asking Alex's girlfriend like you know tell me a little bit more about what inspired you to take these photos and you know like small talk friendly stuff and she kind of was like you know it was just it's so strange you know we thought we thought it was so clear we like the photos were so like they emphasized every masculine quality on Alex's body um we you know in our artist statement you know we used all of the male forms in Italian you know like Louis which means he instead of Lay which means she but everybody at the photo exhibit was like oh must have been a typo or you made a mistake and she was like which is funny because I'm Italian so I should know and I was like oh pronat pronouns. Louis he Alex she used he he Alex is a he is Alex trans like oh my gosh Alex is a transgender man whoa what did you what did that mean to you in that moment what I thought that meant um was Alex was probably born in a body that he didn't identify with yeah I mean mine was I didn't think transgender I didn't think I thought Alex is a guy of course Alex is a guy really yeah I wasn't so were you surprised no I wasn't that super I mean I wasn't I'm not saying that the the pronoun is accurate right I mean I would say that like flipping into he not a thing like like it was like Alex is Alex is a he Alex is he he is sitting at the table with us Alex and his girlfriend very quickly it was like him I'm looking at him and then I start thinking about the story that we had come here to tell um that was about all of the women things that she had done her her her her woman hero heroin first female in 900 years international symbol of female power you start thinking about that and then it's like those things are really hard to square in your head this real person is also these stories and how did that happen what has it been like for 20 years to be inside of that story when you're actually a man coming up Alex tells his side of the story which is not what you would expect at all hey I'm jada boom rod I'm Robert Crowich this is radio lab and today we're telling the story of Alex hey the first ever female gondolier someone who seemingly broke through this 900 year old gender barrier and made headlines all over the world along the way except turns out Alex is in a woman and after who knows how many articles about Alex this is the first time that he's telling his story to the public and so we should probably stop for a second and talk about pronouns because this is really important for many transgender people in moments when Alex was publicly understood as a woman and was getting international press for it we've decided with Alex's permission to only use his name or his title of first female gondolier while some of the people interviewed for the story were unaware that Alex is transgender and do use female pronouns or do refer to him as a woman we when we're talking about him we will only use male pronouns so after that dinner we made plans for the next day on his motorboat and he would just take us to a quiet spot and we would talk what's the agreement on the water on the water shut up stop it pasta elano okay and how does that begin a lot of false starts um why don't know maybe I can ask it has anybody has anyone ever asked you what gender pronoun you prefer no never never ever so after getting some of the basics out of the way Alex kind of started at the beginning well you know it's a long story I was born trust gender this is in Germany Alex tells us he was born with a female body but at a pretty early age knew himself to be a little boy I knew already before I went to school with three years I was standing on the toilet to be inside Alex says that you know for him you know he had a sense even when he was three that there should just be something on his body that wasn't there yeah yeah no I was praying for a penis every night my my parents knew about it his parents were actually both doctors they knew but they they were not supportive you know I heard them you know they were talking about all the weird stuff I did how he would rip the arms off of his Barbies culling them like you know with a black pencil like destroying them or the way Alex dressed himself when there was a swimming lesson in the school I was there only was little pencil you call them a base suit for for boys and you know it was of course very aggressive as a child a lot of fights you know I got quite I was quite violent as a kid so now I can laugh about this but you know it it was a drama at home it was a drama the constant try of my mother to get this behavior out of me Alex says pretty early on his parents basically gave up on him they ignored me as much as they could which was you know in a way it was saving me because I could wear whatever I wanted I could do whatever I wanted and then when Alex was 10 a little brother was born and that was a shock that was a terrible shock because basically it confirmed that my mother wanted desperately a boy but she didn't accept me as her son that's what it was Alex said basically you know that was the first time he saw what like like it should look like basically when a parent loves their kid so when he was 15 he ran away from home I escaped to a handbook and in handbook you have a huge district called Sampowli where they have all the prostitutes and all the bad things and that's exactly where I went. Some people kind of took him under their wing, got a job, kind of figured out how to take care of himself. I got lucky, but I know also very unlucky stories, but I got lucky. Did he ever think about transitioning to a male body? He says he thought about it at one point. But in the 80s, when I was 15, the opportunities you had to become a man were very, very poor. In particular, if you wanted to go down the road of surgery? What I can remember from my family was constant talks about how operations went wrong, how they went wrong and what went wrong and so for me to go to a hospital to do an operation, this is not going to happen. And of course, many transgender people don't end up having surgery. But anyway, after Hamburg, at some point Alex fell into filmmaking and ended up in San Francisco working in the film industry. And so in 1996, he got involved in a production that sent him abroad to go scope out locations for a film that was going to be shot in Venice. So shows up in Venice in 1996. How old is he around at this point? What, 29, I think? Oh, so he's older. He's not a kid at this point. Originally, he's just supposed to say a few days. Kind of just enough time to do some research and scope things out. But somewhere along the way, he sees these guys rowing their boats down the canal. And for reasons he can't entirely explain, he's just transfixed. I was fascinated by this kind of board and I was fascinated by the rowing style that you roll forward. So you actually see where you're going. So I was just fascinated and I just wanted to try it out myself. Eventually, Alex ends up actually meeting a gondolier and asks like, "Do you think I could do this?" And he actually ended up down at the gondolestation as an apprentice. Did they ask you why you wanted to study? I remember the first day. I was introduced by the head boss of the group. Okay, so this is Alex. She's going to be our mascot because they saw Alex as a woman. And there had never been a woman gondolier. Most of them thought for sure this was like a kind of a joke. There was a very old man who later said, "Now we have a gondolier with tits." For the first several months, Alex says he basically just picked up after the guys. You were the bus boy for everybody, so you needed to clean their boats and to ship out the water like 10, 20 times a day. He says it's really back-breaking, grueling work. For somebody that everybody sees as a woman, you think this would be like the worst place on earth. But, you know, actually. Those first, those first months in the city just kind of with the boys, dirty jokes. I thought this is great. Alex knew all the gondoliers' nicknames, walked and talked and acted like them, and cursed in the same way. And he says he felt like he was part of this tradition of learning from these old guys who worked mentors to him. It was really like maybe the best time of my life. It was like he was home. And then the trouble began. It started with the journalist. This is reporter Consuelo Turin. We met in a noisy cafe. So we started in 1996 with a translator. When Consuelo was a collaborator of the Nueva Venezia. She was a cub reporter in Venice, working for a very politically progressive newspaper. And she was out looking for her big story. And she runs into her. How did they encounter each other? Consuelo saw Alex at one of the gondolier stations, and she was like. Whoa. It looked to her like there was this woman rowing among men and like seeming to kind of blend right in. We sort of was attracted by this vision, a neutral vision for Venice. So she observed her. She said I camped out for like a whole morning and basically just watched Alex's behavior. I tried to. Alex didn't want to talk. I told him I can't talk about it. I told her basically I'm just a student. They're teaching me. Don't make this into a thing. Consuelo said listen. Recognize that you don't want to talk to me, that you're apprehensive and that this might be difficult. And I get that this might even damage your reputation with the other gondoliers. But. This is an important story. You're a pioneer. I can't ignore you. And so Consuelo said the tool options. I'm going to write the story no matter what. So you can either talk to me and we can do the story together or I can write what I think. That was the offer. I said it can't go out now and she said it will. And why wasn't Consuelo persuaded that she should wait? Well, there were journalists coming from all over the place. I think the story was going to get out there and somebody was going to write it. And Alex never sort of stopped and was like listen Consuelo or whoever. Let me just tell you the real story. The way out of this is to speak and yet he stays quiet. Right. Do you have a sense why? I mean, so just to kind of give like some like data points that might be helpful and understanding kind of where we were. So we're talking 1997. Just to give you like a corollary thing. Where we were in our discourse around LGBT issues was like Ellen DeGeneres I think that year. This is so hard, but I came out on her show. I think I've realized that I am. I can't even say the word. Why can't I say the word? And like shortly after it was canceled. Caitlin Jenner was just a few years ago. Like we didn't even really have a grip on what transgender was. That was in the conversation that we were having in public. Can you imagine what it would be like to be like guys, guys, guys, don't worry though. I'm actually a man. That wouldn't have gone over so well with the dudes at the gondola station. Yeah, yeah. So what ended up happening after Consuelo and Alex had this had the show down about the article? Well, a couple days later Alex was on the way to the gondola station. I found it in the newspaper shop, the headline. A woman is challenging the gondoliers. So I was like, oh my god, it's going to be hell. So it's in the newspaper stand. Alex shows up at the gondoliers station and of course there's a big hello. A big unfriendly hello. Yeah, just like a, oh, hello gondolierra. So it was boys that got really, really angry. We do everything to teach you well and now you're challenging us. Alex has a lot of the gondoliers stopped talking to him. They wouldn't even let him wash their boats. And then, you know, of course, there were other ones who said, I told you in the beginning. I told you she was just going to blabbed at the press. A woman is a lot of good singing. A little stone becoming a huge, huge sing. By the way, this is right. This is coming right before Alex is about to take the very first exam. There's actually a series of exams and it gets a little complicated. But eventually, anybody who wants to be a gondolier has to take this rowing test. And by all accounts, Alex was good. Like, we talked to the guy who was the head of the gondoliers association at that time. Alex, I. This guy, Fulfio Scarpo, was like. By Alex, for me, he's a more good, the other man gondolier. And this is the head of the guild? Yeah. And we also talked to this legendary rower named Franco Kreia. And he was also like. Alex is better than most of the guys. So anyway, Alex takes the test. And I failed the exam. Which wouldn't have been, that by itself wouldn't have been such a big deal because a whole bunch of people failed the first exam. But the thing was, there was a feeling that something deeply unfair was happening. According to Consuelo, a lot of people started to think maybe the fix was in. There were other boys there who failed, who were better than other boys who did not fail. Alex says suspiciously pretty much all the people that passed were sons of gondoliers or from gondolier families. Because they have had the right last name. So then I got angry. I got a lawyer. Alex thought this was going to bring attention to how corrupt the license practices, how corrupt this association is. I wanted that the exam is repeated for everybody. And this lawyer was negotiating and the gondolier's association was like. If we let everyone retake the test, that will basically be admitting that we favor certain families over us. families. That was exactly what I want. But it's not what they wanted. They said we don't want the bad press of this. But then, and this is another moment, according to Alex, where his story just gets hijacked. My lawyer negotiated without my permission. According to Alex, without telling him, the lawyer together with the Gondoliers Association dug up this old law that says because Alex is a woman, I mean, he's not, he's a man, but they thought he was a woman. And this law says that as a woman, you have the right to take the test again, this time with women judges in the boat. When she came back and said, okay, here's what we're going to do. Do you remember what you said? I was pissed. I was very upset. That was not what I wanted. That's nothing to do with man or woman. Do you think she was your champion because she identified with you? Yeah, for sure. It was not my story. It's her story. But unfortunately for Alex, as soon as the lawyer did that, it became everyone's story. Oh yeah, because the press there ran with it. In the next two months, every paper in town was writing about it. They're suspended by a Gondoliers' examination. The Gondolaban from foreign. Then the story went global. German catches a crap in her bid to become Ben's first woman Gondolier. Sexists sing first female Gondolier. Gondolier fights a male tradition. And then things escalate into a full-blown gender battle. The Gondoliers are of course super pissed because of all this press that they're getting. We talked to a couple of key like Gondolier guys. Alexandra, hey, what? No, no. They have some thoughts and feelings about it. She had to pass a test. She didn't as a disaster. Alex is at one point. Things got so bad. That was one of them who was saying, you know, going to wait for you in a small and a street and with a knife and kill you. So I grabbed the guy and I said, where's your knife? I'm here. Get it out. You know, do it. That was one episode. There are many others. So on the one side, Alex said he has Gondoliers wanting to knife him on the other. It was terrible because then feminism kicked in and Alex said he had all these women rushing into save him. Wait, when do you want me to like because they thought he was a sheep. We read in the paper that she had tried to take the test and had failed and had called fouls saying that the Venetians were mean and you know sexist and wouldn't let women become Gondoliers. This is Jane Caperol. She was active in the community of Venetian women rowers at the time. What women by the way, like there aren't any. Well, so there weren't any women Gondoliers at that time, but there's a whole community of female rowers. They have teams and they race. I've been doing Venetian Rying for over 20 years. And being a female rower in Venice was very difficult. Elena, this woman rower I was talking to. Last week I was with my rowing partner. It was like, I'm routinely when I'm out on the water like old men yell at me and say, hey, what you doing? Return back home in the kitchen, cooking or cleaning your house. Why are you here? Did you know you're just a contornal? You're just a side dish. They both told me when it comes to racing, there's a big discrepancy in the prize money. The men are getting like four times as much prize money as the women. We are now trying to convince the city of Venice who gives prices that we are like men. We are not less than them. You're all these women who are then incrementally busting their ass to try to be taken seriously in the sport. We are here. We can do this. And when they saw this press about Alex fighting the Gondoliers, they reached out. I sent one of the other considerators down to speak to her. You know, come to our club and come and work with us and help us out, help us teach people. You've got your back, but she wasn't interested. No, of course not. Because Alex, there are two problems. First of all, you cannot compare the Gondolier royes with the racing royes. There are two different styles of rowing. And second of all, the sense I got was that it was kind of like, I don't want to row with you. You guys all wear matching white skirts, like not my thing. So I remember there was a lot of resentment. You're a woman, how can you be one of us in this battle for the equality? Some people listen to me and then they are convinced that I'm a feminist, that I am one of them and I'm not. And all of this comes to a head in October of 2004. When Alex has to retake the test, in this time with champion women rowers in the boat, judging him, there was a lot of pressure. Everything about this test is supposed to be a secret. The location of the test, the path that Alex is going to row, I've had no clue where we're going to go, but suspiciously as Alex stepped into the boat, he noticed that there was a huge crowd lined up all the way down the canal. Gondoliers and their friends and their shouting and yelling. People were screaming on kinds of swear words, you know, kinds of go home. You cannot imagine the hate. He had female rowers in the boat glaring at him. There's press lined up along the entire way. Plus the tourist plus everybody. It was full of people. I felt like I'm in a ring. I tried to block it all out because I needed to do an exam. I wanted to do a good performance. And I wasn't able. It was hell, one of the worst, worst days of my entire life. I really don't, I don't wish that to nobody. That was real hell. I Hey, I'm Chad Abumrod. I am Robert Cullwich. This is Radio Apple. We return now to a story from Kristen Clark and David Conrad about Alex Hay, transgender man who became somehow the first female Gondoliera in 923 years and thus an international feminist hero sensation. And so we now find Alex being painted by everybody in town in colors that he doesn't particularly agree with. Yeah, and what's interesting, according to Kristen, is just how easy it is to do that to someone. Okay, so I'll tell you, as we were doing the interviewing and the reporting, I'm like, I'm feeling like I have a good grip on Alex's story. I'm feeling like, oh man, I know what it feels like to be inside of a narrative that feels really icky. And so I feel like I'm kind of getting it and I'm like understanding the full Alex and like, it's about all of these other things that have nothing to do with gender. So Alex's story isn't about gender at all. And for me, that made sense because I was like, in my life, gender has been a box. Like even even when you're in the right, even when you're in the right box, gender is a box and it can feel shitty to be in that box. And so I was like, yeah, let's bust open those boxes together. We're going to show, you know, we're going to show people who you are, Alex. But then we would have these moments where I would be like, hmm, wait a second. Like one night when we were in Venice, we were like trying to park our boat on the way to a restaurant and like this guy is like trying to parallel park his boat and Alex is kind of sitting there like chuckling at him. And you can hear like David chuckling in the background. And so the two of them are like, you know, joking about it. And then Alex says like, he drives like a woman. Like an old lady. And I was like, you know, and kind of rolled my eyes at it. But then later at the dinner, he was like, he was like, you know, though, like, I don't really think that like a real woman could do this job. And he was like, all like much about it. Yeah, I remember you were shocked that I was saying such a much a thing. I remember that. No, of course, you are very right. A woman can do everything, but this job is going to be very tough because it's a real, a cruel community. Amiens is very cruel and rough. But when you said that, I got so, I was like, I was so frustrated. And it was because I think I was attached to the idea of like it being equal, you know? I mean, I was, I was amazed just like super confused. Like, I don't know. I just, I just want to know a thing. I'll admit in the moment I asked a kind of clumsy question. Do you feel, but it was just because he seemed to be almost like prodding me, you know, having fun and winking at David. And do you feel like you're fundamentally on a different team from me? I am on David's team. But you can't see that because you identify with me. But that is not, I can help that. How can I explain it to you? Let's put it this way. When I'm in a group of women, for example, and they start to talk. I feel uncomfortable. The chat things they have, I call it chicken chat, it's not really my cup of tea, you know, I like it, it can amuse me. But the minute they think that I am one of them, it doesn't amuse me anymore, then I feel uncomfortable. I'm a little alien there, because they think I am one of them and I'm not. When I'm with a voice, I feel comfortable. If it is a nice group of boys, which I like, then we have the same type of humor and, you know, the same stupid jokes about women. For Alex, I think what was really striking is that whatever it is that makes him feel comfortable being seen as a man, but not as a woman, it runs very deep. For me, there is a difference between men and women. Not everybody or even every transgender person would feel this way, but the way that he sees it, if there were no differences. There would be no wish to do transition and there would be no transsexuality and sex like that, if it would be the same, but it isn't. We're seeing him as like a gender doesn't matter kind of icon, and he was saying actually it does matter. Yeah. We can just ask a simpler question. When does he actually become the first female gondaleera? Well, so Alex couldn't get one of these 400 or so special gondaleers licenses because he failed the test. Right. But. In 2005, I opened up my own business. He figured out that if he partners up with businesses in town like hotels, he can actually row for them privately. At the time, I was looking at all the laws, and I found that it was possible to open up my own business without having a license, so I did. And so, for years, he was just kind of doing this quietly. Then. Alexandra, she's a not a gondaleer. She's not a gondaleer, she works for a hotel. Some of the gondaleers began to notice that Alex was rowing passengers without a license, and of course, they didn't like it. She didn't pass a test. Saying like, you can't do that. She's not part of our team. It does not have a driver's license. You have to be a member of this organization, you have to have a specific license in order to practice. What do we can say? She's not a gondale driver. I got some threats, verbal threats, and damaging the gondola and things like that. All kinds of stupid little boys shit. So, when they understood they cannot threaten me this way, then they pressure City Hall to change the law. City Hall, basically, I said, like, you can't row a gondola with tourists in it without a license. And the law passed and was signed, and it became the real law. Yeah. And so, one day Alex is out on his boat, and he just gets pulled over. And, basically, he's told, you're breaking this new law. And so. I wanted to defend myself. So, we went on trial. In court, it was Alex, as one lawyer, City Hall and the Gondaleers Association. There are four lawyers. Four lawyers. I thought, you know, this is a lost case already. But City Hall lost. City Hall fights back. Case goes to the highest court in the land. They're lost again. In front of a court. With me, a little stranger from out of nowhere. Now, technically, the decision just said, hotels can provide for their customers the way that they need to. So, if they want to hire a chauffeur who happens to row in a gondola, they can do that. But what that actually meant was that now, for the first time, Alex could be considered a gondaleer. It was a huge deal. Massive. Along the canals, a woman pal is against the time. New York Times came in. Woman takes on Venice gondola cartel. She covered Dribbon came in. First female gondaleer rocked the boat. Female. And lemon came in. So, this is where we get all of those articles we read before we came to Venice. Hi, gondaleers. The story went all over the world. And every single one. Bravo, gondaleer. Bravo. The message was the same. We have our first woman, gondaleer. So, that was something it was unstoppable. I could not go in there and say, excuse me. You know, I'm not really, you know, identifying. No, it was gone. Okay? It was done. [Music] Alex at this point in 2007 doesn't have any other income except for being able to market himself through hotels and eventually online. And so, of course, I need to have a website. People are actively seeking out this person who has broken the gender barrier and become the first female gondaleer in Venice. So, it would have been stupid to try to go against all this. It was already written. So, Alex decides to make his email, his Facebook page, and his website. All prima gondaleera or the first female gondaleer. I'm wondering if creating a website with that name did that feel like you taking control of that narrative? Or was that narrative taking control of your decision on that website? There's nothing to do with what I want. It's a label. You know, I cannot change a label who has, you know, 20 years of history. Shut up! [Laughter] Alex told us he was talking to his therapist one day at this transgender center they have near Venice. And she said, "You are like in a cage. This is like a cage for you. You can't get really out of this." It's a difficult situation. It's a very difficult situation. But, I'm tired. [Music] [Music] By the time we met Alex, he'd been living almost 10 years like this, you know, just kind of between these two stories. At night, out to his close friends, but by day giving these tours as the first female gondaleer in Venice. And every few months, every new tour season these headlines would just regenerate. First female gondaleer, first female gondaleer, first female gondaleer. And when we left Venice, that's kind of where we left him. Kind of hanging in the middle of that. And the impression that we got is maybe that's just going to be how it always is for him. But then. It's quite a while we didn't see each other. Fast forward six months, we get an email from Alex. He says he's in San Francisco. I think things have been happening in your life. Yeah, he had some news. Well, you know, I remember when we were sitting, when we were last talking in Venice, and we were sitting on the terrace, I remember that I was already in I knew there was something coming. But I wasn't sure what it was. It was a very difficult year. And I was kind of depressed, which, you know, I'm not a depressed person, usually. And so I was hanging out, I was not moving much. I was hanging out on my sofa and I was trying to think. And I was more and more every day. I was unhappy about people telling me that I was a she and not a he. I don't know why I got completely intolerant before I was like, I don't care what they say to me. I care that they are nice. And now I was less like, I can't hear this and it was so wrong. Alex was about to turn 50 at this point. And it turns out that part of what was happening was that he was beginning to go through the early stages of menopause. I was hot, I was tired, sweat breaking out for nothing. After fighting with the Gondoliers, fighting with the feminists, this was like a final insult. So I have this idea that hormones might help with how I feel. I start to take the testosterone that was on the 7th of November, which after six hours, I get the first smile on my face in nearly a year. I felt good. And the mood swings, they stopped. Now I knew me because I was looking in the mirror every day and I was like, who is this monster? He decided to fly to San Francisco, meet with a doctor. Some people wait like two years or three years before they start to do a surgery. I wanted to do it now because for me it was something like now or never. So now I'm here in San Francisco, I've had top surgery on the 24th, that's about four days ago. And I wanted to start this year with a body which is confirming me. People see me as a first woman going to learn that means something for many people. It's not fair to them so you know I need to. I needed to say something. I changed on the Facebook side, I changed the name. Now it's Alex, I got a lot of tools and I did already a statement on my on my old website that was a statement. It says dear guests, colleagues and friends after holding myself back for three decades, it's time for me to depart from my wrong body. I am not changing who I am, I am becoming who I am. And is he back in Venice now? Yeah, and do you have any sense of what that's going to mean for his job or his life? I have no idea. I have no clue. I don't know how my voice is going to be in a month. It should drop. I have no idea how my face is going to look and my body is going to look in three years, three years from now. We all leave it as a surprise. No idea, that's scary. Thanks to reporters Kristen Clark and David Conrad also thanks to Alexis Ungerer and Summer. And of course a huge thanks to Alex for sharing a very difficult story with us. Are you worried about what the responses might be to it? Oh my god David, I'm a warrior. You think this is boring me? I've been to a worse I guess. I remember like when we were sitting out on the balcony, you had said something like I don't want to do another battle. Exactly, but I don't want to do another battle. But if I have to I will because I hope that it can at least help one person out there. Hey there, soren here again. So we released that episode in 2017 now of course is 2026. And when we last heard heard from Alex, we left him really in the middle of a moment of change. And in the years since we didn't hear much from him, but I have found myself thinking about him all the time. And I know other people on the staff have too. And then we heard that he'd written a book which is actually being released here in the US today. The day this episode comes out which is June 26. And we're going to get to that in a second, but we didn't really know anything about how his transition went for him both professionally and personally. So I decided the best thing I should do is just get a hold of him. Yes. Nine years has been I don't know where to begin, but maybe. Exactly, that's the problem because it's nine years and a lot of things happened turns out Alex has been through this sort of honestly mythic journey started where we left off in 2017 just as he's getting back to Venice after his time in San Francisco. He's starting a physical transformation, but it was at the very beginning and we weren't sure how that would affect his business. Business was really wonderful from 2017 until 2019. I really have had a blast in that period. It was a lot of fun. I've had a lot of fun at work. I think I read that you were having like celebrity people want to come ride your boat. Yes, well, I've had that before, but then you know also because I felt so comfortable finally in my body not to underestimate how that is pushing you forward in a very happy spot. And so I was in a very good place. And it was was the body matching comfort level like was that immediate or did it take time? Well, it takes time. That's why you have this period which is called puberty where you basically have a second one that is demanding. You know, obviously when you have a certain age, you do not want to get silly anymore and do silly stuff and think silly things, but that is exactly what happens because you need to basically reconsider everything once more from the colors you like, from the food you like, from your sexuality, you know, everything. That's kind of amazing. Yeah, it's a pretty amazing period of time. What's happening at the same time to your relationships? How is it affecting the way you were relating to other people? I remember one, you know, passing by and saying, hey, Alex, you need to cure this cold you have. I mean, you have this for weeks now, you need to cure the cold. Because of the voice. Yeah, I was cracking up because that was very funny. I mean, most people know what you're doing or do I have nobody to even know. Well, nobody really knew because I didn't tell anybody, you know, I was just letting people guess and but then, you know, obviously once somebody understood it, the whole city knew it, you know, it was like a wildfire. And so then I got, you know, funny questions, very, how you call it, questions you don't want to hear it and you don't want to answer to it. But as I was the only out transgenitor at the time, obviously, you know, people asked me all kinds of questions about it. Is it an awkward but friendly curiosity or sort of like a, no, it's just perfect. Okay. Yes. Unfortunately. Most of the time. Obviously, there were also some nice questions and true interest. But that was maybe a five percent of it. The rest was being very interested in a very pervert way. I find myself thinking back and being very interested in your relationship to the other gongoliers, like before everything went bad with the test and the women rowers and the lawsuits. That group of men, you described it as a very happy community, a happy home, a happy place and it was obviously felt like something that got taken from you. But I don't know if there were parts of it that you kept. That question now becomes a little bit complicated. I was very surprised that it worked and how does it work and is it longer than what I have and so on and so forth. So, you know, that was quite interested. Yeah. The business is okay. People are being perverts, but the business is so wonderful. The business couldn't have been better, really couldn't. So, I was really on my way up to the very top and then I got stopped by the police in the 18th of October in 2019 and I thought it was like a normal procedure of controlling something or whatnot. But then I understood that they want to confiscate the gongola. But they didn't told me why. So, that's what happened. My gongola got taken away from me and that for me was like if you are a musician, you do not take the instrument away, but it was not only the instrument they were taking away, they were taking away the music as well. Yeah. And the right to play on another instrument. It was like there was nothing all of a sudden zero. This was Pegasus. That was Pegasus, yes. He is now property of the state of Italy since 2019. And like why did this happen? I didn't know at the time what was happening, why it was happening. We weren't able to confirm what exactly went down with Alex's boat, but according to Alex, I found out years later, I found out that there was no reason whatsoever to do this except for Transphobia. Just discrimination and hate. Exactly. And so, you know, I needed to leave because the situation became harsh, Because City Hall. allowed the request of the Gondelier's association and executed the confiscation of the Gondelier, the association felt very gracked. They were proud. Yes, emboldened. Yes, exactly. It was becoming an unlivable situation because everywhere I was going by foot or by motorboat, I got screamed at and pointed on and my friends were getting concerned that this may be going to escalate into physical violence. I mean, as we know from so many examples, it's a very real threat. Right. I wasn't really afraid of them being physical violent because they are such cowards. However, it was for me unbearable to be in Venice and not be capable of working. And so, you know, this was like just a losing game for me. So I decided to leave Venice. So I cancelled my apartment, my bank accounts, everything. I cancelled everything and I sold everything and I went to Switzerland for a while and then COVID kicked in. Oh my god. And basically I was drifting being without a proper home for six years. I didn't want to return to Germany that was for me like to go backwards, which I hate to do. But somehow there was no other option at the certain point because I spent all the savings I had in those five years or four years and then I needed to go back into my country where I was born and where the passport from and ask the government for support. And that was not an easy thing to do. That was another very shameful idea. And I've done that only and exclusively after there was no other possibility or solution, but I couldn't find housing and I couldn't find a job. It was like I was stuck in the mud for six years. I will always be a Gondelier in the sense of your once a Gondelier, your once a Gondelier, because it is not a job, but it is a handcraft and it's so few people in the world who are doing that. It's something so unique. You cannot just leave that away. All of this needs to be cancelled and forgotten. That was very difficult to let go. That was the most difficult thing and the second most difficult thing was Berlin because I did not like Berlin and from Venice, which is very tiny, to come into a big city which is quite ugly on the first side at least. That was very difficult to swallow for me and so I got depressed and didn't leave the house for quite a while and then I needed to wake up from that, but it was incredibly difficult because I really was in such a black hall and I couldn't find my way out. I didn't saw a light. I didn't ask for help and that was the most cruel thing I've ever done to myself. You know what I mean? In the end, it was not the enemy. It was myself. I destroyed myself. By not fighting back. Yeah, I was tired. I was too tired. Obviously, you ask yourself, what did I do wrong? Did I do anything which provoked this somehow? You think there is a partially a fault somewhere. You did something wrong somewhere. Otherwise, this wouldn't have happened. You cannot imagine that people are so evil that they destroy your existence only because they hate you. It's hard to believe and so I was searching my own fault in all this. What led you or helped you or pushed you to climb out? Good question. If you remember the last time we talked, I said that I am a warrior and then whatever happens, I'm going to fight back and so, you know, there was this little tiny little very low voice knocking and saying, "Hey, you need to get the hell out of this situation. You are hurting yourself. Get your stuff together and find a way to snap out of there." And I did. What was your first move to start writing, to start leaving the apartment, to start? I needed to start moving my body somehow, just a little bit, you know, a shoulder, a foot or just to stand up and to sit down again. I was so tired and then when I got better, my health really collapsed. When I thought now I'm better, like mentally I was better, then my health was saying, "Hello, I'm here too and collapsed." Very difficult situation, which I do not wish to nobody because to snap out of this kind of depression and misfortune is nearly impossible. But at some point you do start creating, like writing, I assume, or maybe thinking about film again. Yeah, you know, when I lost my existence, the first thing I was doing, I knew I needed to stay in motion, so I made a small film, which was quite successful for what it was. But it didn't work out the way I wanted it to work out because of COVID. It was ignored in Germany, but it's shown now. Next weekend in Hamburg at the short film festival. Really? For the very first time, so it has still a premiere status and they are like four years late, but you know, who cares? So that's going to be funny because I studied visual communication in Hamburg, and it's shown in the cinema. I always dream that I wanted to show a movie there. Dad, I just got goosebumps. Yeah, that is one of those magic crazy things which happened. That's a nice return. Yes. What's the name of the film? Vinyetium. That's a Venetian saying, it means I shall come again, and so I was doing that little film and I was writing the book in the COVID time. I fed time. So I was writing this thing on my iPad with two fingers because you know, I'm a Gondolier, I'm not an IT engineer or an author or what not. So I was writing this with two fingers on my iPad, and all this was not going anywhere. There was nothing coming out of what I was doing, and I couldn't find a proper job. When I came to Berlin for me, my life was over, and it was very interesting because Berlin was from day one, very, very kind to me. I've got support from people I didn't know and I've got some job proposals and you know, things were moving in a better direction, but I was not ready for it. I was like, you know, I just want to die because I didn't, I didn't want to go back to Germany. It took me years to understand that Berlin is, how can I say, it's softer than you think it is. There's a lot of love here, there's a lot of community here, and there are so many different worlds here. Are you now happy in Berlin? Now I'm happy in Berlin. And that's this kind of new in the sense I'm like, I'm driving around in Berlin and I'm like, oh, it's not too bad. Or, you know, before I was like, oh my god, this is unbearable, this is so ugly. And now I'm like, oh, it's not so bad, come on. There are beautiful places here. Don't get me wrong. There are beautiful parts and sections here. But obviously, after Venice, everything is ugly. Do you still want to go back? I knew that question would come. Yes, I would. I would. To two roads. No, no, I think I'm physically not capable anymore to do that because I was really, really sick and it is quite a wonder that I'm still alive. However, Venice is so much more for me than the Gondoliering. It's my hometown. This is where I belong. Yeah, I understand that. However, Berlin was so kind. Even when I was rejecting Berlin, Berlin was not giving up on me. And I have a big thank you in my heart for Berlin because Berlin really saved me. And then the book? When does the book come? The book is coming out in New York on the 26th of June. I feel it feels good. It makes me happy to hear this arc of life for you. I can only tell people, never give up. I really hope that the world is going to come together and that the change is coming and that we move away from this hate because hate is absurd and so stupid and so unnecessary. There's space for everybody and I don't understand why this intolerance needs to happen and I do not need to tell you that the transgender community is affected harshly. and deeply and extremely buy it. - Yeah. - I sure that hope. - I just wonder why I need to pay such a high price just in order to be happy with myself. That doesn't make sense to me. - Yeah. - Because I became who I am and I paid an extremely high price for it. I nearly lost myself in it. And I think that is something which I hope will not ever happen again to somebody else in my position. - One final note. Just a few days before we put this episode up, Alex was traveling to New York City to have a release party for his book. And he told me that he was pulled aside by Border Control interrogated and actually detained for a while in New Jersey. And he had to go back to Berlin where he is again now. Big, big thanks to Alex for giving us his time once again for being so open and honest and direct, is always a pleasure talking to him. You can order Alex's book on the Pegasus Publisher's website is called The Gondelier by Alex High, that's H-A-I. Definitely go check it out. One last note. If you're transgender and living in the US and you're struggling or you need community or support or resources, always remember that you can call the Trans Lifeline at 877-565-8860. I'm Sauron Wheeler, this is Ray Lab. Thanks for listening. Hi, I'm Gabby. I'm from the Bay Area, California, and here are the staff credits. Ray Lab is hosted by Lulu Miller and Let's If Not, Sir. Sauron Wheeler is our executive editor. Sarah Sandbach is our executive director. Our managing editor is Pat Walters. Dylan Keefe is our director of sound design. Our staff includes Jeremy Bloom, W. Harry Fortuna, David Gabel, Maria Paz Gutierrez, Sindu Nainasambundan, Matt Keelti, Mona Morghalker, Alex Nisen, Sara Kari, Natalia Ramirez, Rebecca Rand, Joanna Stroghats, Anisa Vica, Aryan Wack, Molly Webster, and Jessica Young, with help from Gabby Santas and Maya Applebee Millamid. Our fact checkers are Diane Kelly, Emily Krieger, Natalie Middleton, Angelie Mercado, and Sophie Semyy.