The Generation Fashion Forgot

(upbeat music) Hello and welcome to the Debris from the Business of Fashion where each week we delve into our most popular B.O.F. professional stories with the correspondence who created them. I'm Senior Correspondent, Shina Butler Young. When fashion brands throw a party, they often enlist a celebrity or influencer to draw a crowd. But a recent event at the Minnesota flagship of women's clothing retailer, Ever Eve, co-founder Megan Tampti turned to a different crime of guest of honor, her 82 year old mother. And the women who came along with her many in their 70s and 80s were exactly the customers that the retailer was hoping to attract. For decades fashion has been obsessed with youth, often overlooking an older generation of shoppers with something brands desperately want, spending power, loyalty and a willingness to invest in quality. But winning them over isn't as simple as featuring a few gray-haired models in a campaign. So what are brands finally recognizing about this customer? And what does it actually take to earn her business? For a recent story, I spoke with brands, including Ever Eve, Ula Johnson and Frances Valentine, about how they're courting an older shopper and what the rest of the industry can learn from them. Joining me to discuss what I found is my colleague, Diana Pearl, who edited the piece. Diana, welcome back to the Debris. - Thanks, Shina. I was happy to be here. So, Diana, when we worked on this story, I want to start with what struck you about the gap between the customer that fashion seems to want and the women that are actually buying the clothes. And this is mostly a conversation, I think, about women's shoppers. Sure, there are men that maybe would desire to see themselves in the campaign over the age of 50, but there's mostly a women's focus conversation. I should say that. But what struck you about that gap? - You know, I think it's interesting. Fashion is just an industry that has historically always been very obsessed with youth and chasing that younger customer. And, you know, in some ways, I get it. The youth set trends and, you know, are a lot of times through the ones driving cultural conversation. But what they don't oftentimes have is the spending power. There's so much discussion about how boomers are, you know, the wealthiest generation and they have, you know, half of the wealth or, and I'm not, you know, quoting any particular statistic, but they have a good chunk of the wealth in the US. And that means that they're the ones, especially in a time where people are being a little bit more cautious, but they're spend. That means that they're the ones that are still shopping. But like you said, there are very different sort of audience what they want from brands is different. They're also maybe less likely to be involved in these, you know, conversations on TikTok and around trends that really start online. And that sort of thing, there are a lot more focused on quality. And I think also these customers, because they're willing to spend more, they're also, their expectations might be higher. So that's something that brands have to think about as well. But yeah, I think that this is a large generation, a generation with a lot of money to spend and a generation that, you know, is loyal to the brands they shop at, which all of that really makes them valuable customers. - Well, the story sort of has two parts. There's the, you know, the actively trying to get the business of a certain customer and then there's like who you put in an advertising campaign. I think we can give fashion brands a lot of credit when we say that they're paying attention to youth because the young people are like a GPS, right? Like they give us ideas of where culture is headed. It's important to prioritize their voices, but I think the advertising part of this is very interesting. I think brands, well, I think you might agree with me on this. There seems to be an hesitation around displaying an older model as the face of something. And Lisa Almani was one of the experts I spoke to the story talked about like fashion thinking that if they put an older customer forward, people would be put off. What do you think brands are afraid of in terms of not just getting her business, but actually making her the face of a campaign? - You know, I think that this probably goes back to a lot of like ingrained misogyny in not just fashion, but in our society, you know, I think that there are so many industries in parts of the world where, you know, historically, it's been seen a woman's over 40 and, you know, that it's a lot, it's talked about a lot in Hollywood. The parts start drying up for models. There's not as many jobs. People are just a little bit less interested in what women of that age have to say, catering to them especially. We have seen some exceptions, you know, I think about Saline casting Joan Diddy in a campaign 10 years ago. There was a J-Crew campaign a few years ago where they put Diane Keaton and I think Julian Moore in the campaign. And these campaigns were all really well received. I do think that there is such an appetite for it. Like that, I think people, there is this, you know, belief, oh, people want to see young women. But I don't necessarily think that's true. I think that younger women a lot of times when they see older women who are chic, who are beautiful, stylish, who are successful, there's an aspirational element to that. And I think that people forget about that. And they sort of get so caught up in, oh, we just want someone who looks in this particular mold that we're willing to fit. But I think in opening your mind to older women and featuring them in your campaigns, you're really giving an opportunity to reach not just the customers that look like those women, but also the customers that hope to one day be those women as well. There's an aspirational element there too. - Oh, it's very true. One of my favorite quotes on ageism is that ageism is discrimination against your future self. Like we're all going to eventually, if we're lucky enough or blessed enough, we live long enough. I think a lot of young women to your point want someone they can look up to. You also mentioned it being an exception to the rule. So there was a stat that I pulled in the story, which is Americans over 60 account for 22.2% of the population, but just 4.2% of models and ads. So that's according to the Journal of the Academy of Marketing Science. So just wanted to like double down on that, there are exceptions to the rule, but the rule is very much still in play. Something else that came up, or that actually became sort of the anchor for the story was, a lot of the brands that I spoke to weren't just featuring, gray haired, so to speak, models over the age of 60 or 70, but they were really talking about the full range, anyone that's not 19 or 20. So millennials, even elder Gen Z, and what they describe was wanting to accomplish multi-generational selling, or being relevant to someone that is 35, but also simultaneously someone else that's 65. Can you talk a little bit about this idea of like multi-generational selling, or creating a balance that's really important right now for brands? - Yeah, I think that being a multi-generational brand is such a like a secret weapon, or it's such a strength that a brand can have. If you can sell to the mother, the daughter, the grandmother, A, I think that that just gives you access to like such a wide swath of consumers, but there's also a challenge in that you're speaking to a lot of different generations who find out about brands in different ways, and maybe they engage with those brands in different ways, but I think it's such a superpower to be able to speak to multiple generations, and really ensures that your brand has staying power, because if you're only talking to the mothers, or only talking to the grandmothers, or only talking to the daughters, when those people age out of the brand, it's not a guarantee that the next generation is going to resonate with that message in the same way. But if you have the ability to grow up with people, and be a part of this familial collective shopping experience, you know, buying something with your mom, or your grandma, that creates that emotional resonance that really builds that long-term loyalty in deep connection with the brand. - How much of this data do you think is about appealing to the customer that's already shopping with a brand? So, like, France's Valentine is one example of a brand that's very much skewing 56-year-olds, 65-year-olds. I think that's their core customer. Ula Johnson, I think the breath is a little bit wider. I think they're 35 to 65 or something like that. I also spoke with brands like Poppy and Pionis, which is more 35 to 45-year-old millennial mom. But what I found interesting is that a lot of retailers broadly in my research do rely on this customer a whole lot to, like, to nudge them over into the black every quarter. They just don't prioritize her. Do you think part of the unlock is actually, we already have this customer. We're just not taking advantage of, and that sounds really toxic, but I think that we're not leveraging and getting the most out of this cohort because we just don't feel the need to speak to them. - 100%. I think that it really is about customer attention, particularly with older customers. I think the older you get as a shopper, the more you're a little like, I like what I like, and you find those brands you like and you want to keep investing in those pieces and with those brands. But I also think if you are going to spend the more you spend with a brand, the more you feel like you want that relationship to be reciprocal, you want to be treated well by that brand. You want to feel like that brand is creating pieces for your audience, like for the audience that you are in and for your age group. It's a reciprocal relationship. So I think that really you need to think about customer attention even more. So with older consumers and what are the silhouettes that they're interested in right now? Where are the, how do they like to shop? Do they like in-store events? Do they like doing things with personal stylists and having that salesperson who's really involved in your shopping journey? I think really thinking about, and listening to them, ask them, how do you want to shop? How do you, what kind of products are you looking for? looking for this season, next season, what are the holes in your wardrobe? What do you think we're not doing enough of? I think that it's really important to focus on that retention and just listen to that customer because if you listen to them and make them feel heard, that's what gets them to come back. - I also, there's a part of the story. It's actually the lead and everyone should read the story and read it over and over again. But the lead of my story is about Megan Tamte, the founder, a co-founder and co-chief executive of Everieve, throwing a party for her mom, who's 82, and having her be the guest of honor and then having all of her friends come in their 70s and 80s. And one of the things that I think was interesting and it came up throughout the story is that everything that you hear brands saying right now, they think is important to do. This community is like ripe for all of those things. So her mom has all these friends at like a local and a clubhouse community. She brought them all there. They were willing to have conversations with stylists. If they come in for a blouse, they'll buy the whole wardrobe. Is there something to be said for the forgotten influencer that is in her 70s and 80s? Are we overlooking how influential someone like that is? An 80 year old that's the cool person at whatever clubhouse her mom's a member of and brings the whole squad? Like I think that's pretty. I don't know a lot of 20 something year olds I'm just saying. But what about that element of things? I always say that influencers are just people that 20 or 30 years ago, they maybe didn't have the channels to monetize that influence in the same way they do now, but they still had it. There's always been that girl going back to when you were in elementary school even that you looked to for fashion inspiration that you looked to to be inspired that always had the best product recommendations, always knew of the hot new cool brands. So that doesn't change. And I think that there are so many women in their communities at all ages, honestly, that maybe aren't on social media and monetizing their influence in the way that we've come to know as sort of industry standard. But it's especially true for women probably in their 70s, 60s, 80s that have a lot of influence within their local communities, people trust them, people actually know them. And there's so much talk right now about the smaller influencers, the nano influencers. I think a lot of these women are probably the prime example of that. They have a immense amount of sway over their friends and their communities. So I think really finding those people inside communities who are really valuable, even if it's not on Instagram or on TikTok or what have you. And bringing them in to hosted in store event or you going to that go to the clubhouse or the, you know, I think about like my grandma, who's 96, she plays cards with her friends every week. Like, you know, find those events and find ways to connect with that customer. I think that there are so many ways to have influence and we're a lot of times focused on that digital influence and the more, you know, the influence that we really see on a day basis on social media. But influence is everywhere. You just have to know where to find it. And by the way, a lot of these women are on social media. So one of my favorite conversations that I had was with Elise Ehrens, who is the co-founder of Frances Valentine. Elise is also by the way co-founder of Kate Spade. So her and the late Kate Spade founded that brand when they were in their 30s and they were speaking to women that were in their 30s and 40s and then they moved on and founded Frances Valentine. And now Elise is in her 60s and she's speaking to again herself. But she has 130,000 followers on Instagram and she's so she's both the model and news and spokesperson for the brand. But the interesting thing about her and many of these brands that are in the story is that the founders are the news. You've written a lot and edited a lot of stories in the marketing vertical about the power of a founder as a voice for a brand. Like what can a founder offer that a conventional campaign or marketing channel? And social media can't, especially when it comes to speaking to a customer that wants to see themselves. Yeah, I mean, I think like you said, they can see themselves in them and they have this aspirational element. You know, you look at someone like Elise Ehrens or Ula Johnson, which I know is another brand you spoke to for the story. You know, these women are these like very chic designers. You know, live this glamorous New York City lifestyle and, you know, I know Elise Ehrens if you've ever watched the home tour on YouTube. It is excellent, highly recommend. You know, they have all these aspirational elements about their life. And I think people also feel like they can see them cells in them, you know, there are so few like ways to see, and there are so few depictions of women of a certain age quote unquote in popular media. I always say real housewives feel like sometimes it's one of the only ones. And I think that these women really offer that. They offer this hint of aspiration, but also it's this perfect combination of aspiration and relatability. And also I think these women because they're designers and because they're so intimately involved with their brands, they have this intimate knowledge of the product. And I think for older shoppers, that's really important. They can speak to the quality. They can speak to the fit. They understand, you know, what are the parts that a woman maybe doesn't want to highlight? The parts they do want to highlight. They really have that intimate knowledge of the customer because they are the customer themselves. And I think that that is so powerful, especially for older consumers who really just want a high quality piece. If they're going to invest that money, they want something that suits their needs, suits their lifestyle and also, you know, is high quality, but also is stylish. And I think that these women really, you know, they can speak to the quality, they can speak to the process of, you know, the garment being made, they can speak to its construction, the design. Well, also just being very, you know, like I said, that perfect combination of aspirational and relatable. We'll be back with more of the debrief right after this. I should have mentioned Ula Johnson a little bit more earlier, but I spoke to Ula's chief executive for the store. And he mentioned a couple things that American citizen with what you said, that Ula is also in the stores in New York and like meeting the customer, that they have a 70% retention rate because she's not designing, which is incredible, by the way, we could pause on that and say, wow, 70% retention rate, because she's not designing for the idea of a customer she's designing for the customer that she's meeting every day. He also said that they have people that come back and want to buy into newness, that they're not just like I, you know, they invest in pieces, he called them like they like heirlooms, like they invest in their pieces as an heirloom, but they also like newness. Again, like you would think this is like the treasure trove of everything a brand wants from a customer, yet it's such, they're leaving money on the table. The other thing that I thought was interesting, we can talk a little bit about is a lot of the brands and every of is one that said this, but also Ula Johnson described, you know, a mature customer that has time to linger in a store. We have probably done at least three or four episodes of the debrief where we've talked about like stores as a third space that like if you really want unlock loyalty and spend, you gotta get people to linger a little while. One of the ways that you can do that is through store associates. Can we talk a little bit about how, you know, this is the perfect opportunity for brands to leverage all this stuff of like making sales associates like stylists and getting people to come in, wanting a blouse, but leaving head to toe with the shoes and the accessories. - Yeah, definitely. I think that there's also something to be said with sales associates. You know, it's really important for them to have this in-depth knowledge of the product, but I also think, you know, think about hiring older women as sales associates. Somebody who's got these with these customers, trust, feel like relatable to them. They understand what they want. You know, if I, like even me as a 34-year-old woman, if I'm going into a store and it's like a 22-year-old girl being like, oh yeah, this is so cute. I would be a little like, okay, we're different. I can't even imagine what, you know, somebody who's in their 50s or 60s would feel getting cautioned by it's necessarily from a 25-year-old. You're like, okay, it's, you know, nice to hear about the trends from you, but we are just in different places. So I think that there's a lot of opportunity there. And I think that, you know, like I said, when these customers are spending more money, they want to have that relationship with the sales associates. Sometimes they're looking for, you know, more guidance around, okay, what exactly is on trend right now? What is, you know, the special pieces that I can come back to again and again, they want maybe a little bit more hand-holding if they're going to invest this kind of money if buy something quality. And they, like I said, they're a loyal customer. They want to have that bond with a brand and what your sales associate is really the ambassador who builds that bond on behalf of your brand. So I think just making sure that the sales associates know the product really well, know the customer really well and understands what they're looking for. I think those are very important elements of all this. - I think that's a great point about even on the hiring side in stores, I covered in the workplace in talent beat the shortage of talent in stores. And one of the big themes that came out a couple of years ago was that actually if you really want a loyal sales associate, you should go to the, to a more, now that you can be ages and you're hiring, but like a older or more mature store associate has like a lot of the things you want, Mr. Nacho. are they good with people, can they do the sit and fit, do they relate to your customer, but sometimes they just want to contribute to an organization versus like trying to climb and then you have pipeline issues and all of that, like if you want to jump from a store to corporate, they're not always looking for those things. Another theme I want to talk about, you mentioned the going into a store as a 34 year old and being maybe served by someone that's 10 or 12 years younger than you. What do you think about assumptions that people make about what someone would want to wear? Because they are of a certain age. - I think there's probably a lot of assumptions around the sort of celloettes that they want to wear, you know, something that's perhaps more covered up or you know, more quote unquote, "matronly," maybe less and obviously there are older customers that probably don't want to wear a mini skirt and don't want to wear sleeveless tops and that sort of thing. I think what's probably important for sales associates is just not making assumptions and really listening to each individual customer. There are some women in their 60s who I'm sure can rock a mini skirt, you know, just like a 22 year old. So just listening to that particular customer, listening to them talk about like, what are the celloettes you feel most comfortable in? What are, you know, and we all have parts of our body that we would like to camouflage a little bit with our clothes and parts we want to show off? What are the parts of your body that you love most and you want to show off and make you feel good? So I think just really not making assumptions, taking an individual approach to each customer and really listening to them and hearing what they want and, you know, proceeding accordingly. - So most of the examples in my story and a lot of this was motivated by our independent retail that big package that we did over the end of the summer, like of these smaller indie brands that offer a certain kind of experience in their stores but maybe also digitally. Ever Eve is a little bit larger, they have more than 100 stores but some of this might sound more practical or feasible to do when you're smaller. So Anna, do you have any advice in terms of like, ensuring that you can do this at scale? You know, a lot of this sounds like personal relationships with a founder, with sales associates, you know, clientelling even a little bit, ula being in the stores in New York. You know, maybe your top two or three pieces of advice for doing it at scale. - You know, I think the first thing comes to my mind is really educating, you know, store teams particularly store managers and empowering them to empower their associates to build those relationships to really understand the product. I think like you said with the marketing, that's a great way to reach older customers and make sure that you are, you know, meeting them where they are, not just running everything on TikTok or Instagram. You know, find the channels that are the ones that these customers really are best, you know, easy to reach, whether that's, you know, streaming ads or Facebook ads or, you know, doing more in store events. And I also think like I was saying earlier, really finding those local taste makers and influencers, you know, people of, of sway in their communities and partnering with them. I think really just empowering, you know, people in each local market to really find those people partner with them and, you know, do what works best in that market for that customer base. - No, those are all excellent points. You reminded me I never mentioned that Francis Valentine Elise, that their top content are Facebook videos that must be at least two minutes long. So yeah, that you're spot on in terms of meeting them or they are, but also segmenting the market. Like you might have content for your audience on TikTok for that small group, something like Poppy and Piony's, a lot of millennial women, myself included on Instagram more than any of the other channels. So she's showing mom's career women on Instagram. So I think that I couldn't have said about it myself. Market segmentation is huge. The last thing I want to ask you about. So this feels exciting to me as a woman that is like looking up to, looking up and down. But like, I think there's a generation of women that are maybe we're not our grandmothers anymore. This came up in the story that there's so much longevity and products and like it used to say 30 is the new 20 now. It's like 40 is new 30 and it just keeps going on and on and on. And so there seems to be a lot of opportunity to push back against stereotypes around age. Like our grandmothers and our great grandmothers were amazing. We're living in a different time with more technology. And so we see some of this starting to shift. How does this become, you know, maybe a lasting commitment on the side of fashion and beauty to catering to and depicting a full range of women versus a flash in the pan where this is cutesy right now. We'll do a little bit more, but then I'll go away. What does it take to make this a long-term shift? You know, I think really recognizing that, you know, women of a certain age are not a monolith. You know, like I said, not every woman of a certain age wants to, you know, have all headlines below their knees or we'll never wear a sleeveless top again or that sort of thing. I think realizing that aging has changed. You know, I feel like sometimes you see on Twitter or, you know, Instagram, you'll see these memes. It'll be like, you know, what 45 was, 30 years ago. And it's a photo of like Diane Keaton at Restonpiece and Father the Bride looking wearing like a pearls and a sweater set and then like 45 now and she's wearing like a mini dress or something like that. I think that there is, there's a lot more social acceptance to dress however you want at whatever age you are. So I think just really recognizing that this customer group is not a monolith. It's not like you turn, you know, 30 or 40 and you're immediately like, okay, I need to, but my shirt up to the top and, you know, I become like grandma Santa's or whatever. But again, a nice blouse for the, you know, for Sunday service, Diane. - Yeah, exactly. And I think just realizing that all generations are varied and that customer is, you know, they, yes, there are, I guess like a generalizations you can make whether it's, you know, the channels you're meeting them at or, you know, this, this seeking out of quality but in terms of silhouette and what they're really looking for out of their clothes, they're not a monolith and just recognizing that and catering to them accordingly. - Absolutely. And in the spirit of the conversation we're having, I liked the phrase that ever we've seen, I don't know if you've heard this, but ever Eve uses this phrase to call the woman ever becoming rather than like calling her an age or like constantly transitioning. So I'll leave us sort of with this quote that she said, Megan Tampi said, which is that like they're ever becoming. So as they enter each phase of life, they're more excited about what's ahead of them versus trying to look back and wish that they were younger. I hope that's the case for us, Diane. I wish that for us. - Me too. I feel like it's good vibes, you know? - Good vibes. - They don't like it's better. Yeah. - Onward and upward. Diana, thank you so much for joining me. - Thank you, Shina. Listeners, you can read my full story on the brand's courting fashion's older customers at businessofashion.com. This and other stories are available to B.O.F. professional subscribers only and you could find the links in the episode notes. You've been listening to the debrief, produced and edited by Olivia Davies and Angel Nemoff. I'm Shina Butler Young. We'll be back next week with a new episode. Thanks so much for joining us and be sure to follow us wherever you get your podcasts. 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