Speaker 1Welcome back to the Apostolic Classroom. This is episode nine of our 16-week semester, our installments on the Godhead. This week we are going to be talking about the general epistles and discussions about the Godhead from those epistles. Before we do that, though, we just want to ask all of our listeners, if you haven't already, please subscribe on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Spotify. Subscribing on those programs helps. It helps the show stay present in your feed. Of course, it helps us tremendously as well as Truthbook Co., and we want to give a shout out to them as well. Truthbook Co. is producing this show for us, and all the work that they've done to this point to get us here, we'd certainly thank them for that. And I'm excited this week is going to be a good conversation talking about the Godhead from the general epistles. I don't know about you guys, but this. This tends to be the source of most questions I get about the Godhead. Anytime somebody calls me or texts me or whatever about the Godhead, it seems like it's something out of the general epistles. Not all the time, maybe necessarily, but definitely stuff out of 1 John, stuff out of 1 Peter. Certainly a lot to cover here. So I think we. Do we decide we're going to start in 1 John? Does that seem. Does that work for you guys?
Speaker 2Go ahead. Knock it out. I'll just read a few verses here from chapter 1. Sweet. That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled of the word of life. For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifest unto us. That which we have seen and heard, declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us, and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son, Jesus Christ. And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
Speaker 1Okay. Some immediate things that stand out here in context of talking about the Godhead. So, number one, a little bit of similarity in theme to the opening of Hebrews. That which was from. From the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled of the word of life. Of course, talking about Jesus Christ. John, in particular, being one of the original witnesses to those things.
Speaker 3Which is a cool point. I think that's worth bringing up, is these are eyewitness accounts. And those claims are throughout the epistles and the gospels that we've. We've seen Jesus, we've handled them, we've been with him, we were witnesses to these things. Even Paul's letter in 1 Corinthians 15, over 500 people saw the resurrected Jesus, most of which are still alive, and you can go confirm it. So, these are the claim, and I say this as we believe this claim, the evidence is there, that these claims are made by eyewitnesses.
Speaker 2Yeah, and I think one thing, too, to point out is, like, there's clearly in the text a dispute. That John is addressing, in this sense, he's saying, if you're going to have fellowship with us, you have to know the Jesus that we knew. You can't have fellowship with us if you are preaching another Jesus, or if you are following another Jesus. And so, there is us versus them kind of language here.
Speaker 1And the other thing is this insistence throughout 1 John on fellowship with the Father and the Son. And this is important for. For Christians everywhere, this question that has come up before from people asking about all of this, you know, talk about, well, how do you have fellowship with the Father and the Son? And why would John spend so much time? And he does. So many of the general themes of John are, you know, warnings against false Christ, the insistence on brotherly love, some key phrases that come out in this reading, you know, God is light, God is love. But this focus on fellowship with the Father and the Son, something that John says in chapter 2, he says in verse, I'll start at 21. He says, I have not written unto you because you know not the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth. Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is Antichrist that denieth the Father. And the Son, whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father, but he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. This is important because if you think about the context in which John is living, the irony of this passage for people to ask about it, and they might be confused about, you know, they're trying to maintain a, you know, they're trying to maintain some connection with the oneness of God, the insistence on the oneness of God. And they see this distinction. And so it makes them question, they're like, well, if, okay, so there's, there's two, are they known separately? Are they different person? The irony is, is that if you think about what John said, when he says that whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father, but he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. That statement, of course, makes no sense if you're reading it from a, like a Trinitarian mindset. The idea that you could know one person of the Trinity and not the other is nonsensical from a, like a Trinitarian persuasion. I don't know of any Trinitarian Christian thinkers that are drawn to the idea that you progressively, that the Trinity is progressively revealed one person at a time. That first you come to know, you know, the Father, and then over time you'll get to know the Son, and then you get to know, that's not a thing. Nor is there this idea in Christian doctrine, it's not even, and not even by implication possible that you, that you could not just know one, but accept one and deny the other. That doesn't make any sense. John didn't have a Trinity in mind when he said this. But what he was. What he was dealing with was an entire generation of Christians, and probably particularly in this case, it seems like it could have been much more pronounced among the Jews. This idea that we serve the God of our fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, but we deny that Jesus is the Christ. That this, we, we, we, we love the God of the Old Testament. We love the God of Moses. We, we read the law. We read the prophets. We love God. But this Jesus is not the Christ. And all John is trying to say here. And he, he opens, he said, he said, who is a liar, but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ. And his chief claim here simply being like, don't get this twisted. If you acknowledge that Jesus is the Christ, you have the father that this is why, because this is the father's Christ. This is, this is the Christ of God. He said, but if you deny that Jesus is the Christ and claim that, you know, God, you don't know him at all. It's, it's this, and this makes a lot of sense. If you're a, if you were a Jew living in the first century. This statement makes a ton of sense is that you don't get to say that you serve God and reject this Christ. You don't get to worship the God in heaven, but, but reject his witness in the earth. And then he, and that comes up later too about the, the, I say the six witnesses, but the three witnesses that, that he writes of that these are one testimony that this, you don't have this, you can't, you can't compartmentalize this, that this is one witness and that this witness doesn't agree with this. He's, he's trying to drive home the same point that Paul drives home so many of his epistles is that. That this is one witness and that our witness is true and that Jesus is the Christ. And if you know him, you know, the father, much like Jesus said, he that has seen me has seen the father, how sayest and show us the father. The idea was that this idea of a distinction of divine persons is, is doesn't make sense in this reading. What does make sense is that there were people who claim to love God, claim to serve God claim, perhaps even in some, in this case to be even Christians, but they denied that Jesus of Nazareth, they denied that Jesus of Nazareth. They denied that he was the Christ. And that's all John's trying to say is that if you have him, you have the truth, but if you don't have him, don't say that you love God and that you serve God, but you deny the Christ.
Speaker 3Which really shows the continuity between the old Testament and the fulfillment with Jesus and the new. And we've been hitting this concept throughout this whole series, looking at, okay, here's the old Testament passage, or here's the doctrine. And then look at what Jesus became, look at what he did. And I'm just thinking. I'm just thinking of, of Psalm two, we've talked a lot about, or we, at least we brought it up periodically Psalm two, where it says, you know, there are these rebellious kings of the earth. They rebel against God and his anointed one. That's verse two, Psalm two, two. And so you have to, some things we've been bringing this up again, quite a bit where you have to, some things you have, you have a father and you have a son, you have God on the throne, so to speak. And then you have his King on the throne. On the earth. And so I see that language here. And I think the, the issue is we, as we, as one, this believers, how do we explain that? But then even for Trinitarians, how did, how do you, how do they explain that? Because you have to, some things, how do you work through what this is? Whether you are in first John, or I'm even thinking of Matthew 28, 19, go forth, you know, and teach and preach and baptize in the name of the father, son, and the Holy ghost. That is. rooted in Old Testament theology. Because you have the God of Israel, You have the king of Israel and you have the spirit empowering the citizens to be citizens of the kingdom. Those are all promises and aspects of Old Testament theology. It's not revealing a trinity. So how do we explain these things? I think that's what we're trying to do is work through these issues because this may not be good Trinitarian theology to say that you have to pray to one member or one person of the Godhead. But in actuality, it's a very practical application because – and what I mean by that is there are Trinitarians. You talk to Trinitarians and they – ones I know of that they don't know who do I pray to or do I divide up my time between. And so figuring out how do we talk about this sonship language, this Christ language, these are very real issues. And I think, again, to your point that – John is making a distinction. This is an Old Testament promise. And I'll conclude it here. I said a lot there with here's this mediator. He is – this is the man Jesus, the mediator. He's the king. And you have to believe in him because no man comes to the father but by that mediator.
Speaker 2It's super interesting to me too because like we don't always get – when we read some of the biblical texts, we don't always get for different epistles. For different gospels, for different books of the Bible, we don't always get purpose statements. But this one gives us very clear purpose statements. We write this to you or I write this to you so that way your joy may be full, right? And you can have fellowship with us but also – His thesis statement. Yeah. And he also says like, hey, I didn't write this for this reason. I wrote this for that reason. And I think that that's super awesome because it is a clear pointer to us as to how we should read. It gives us a real clear direction of what we should be focused on as we read the letter here. And what I think is interesting that you both have brought up is that connection and continuity with the Old Testament. And so when we consider – you mentioned Psalm 2 and you mentioned the rejection of the anointed one, the Christ. When we get to a text like chapter 3, which – Which has – I find it to be just such a fascinating and incredible text. Chapter 3, verses 1 and 2, it says, Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God. And that, of course, is – this is a text that we are – I think immediately of John 1. Even in the opening of 1 John 1 where it says, that which was from the beginning. I'm thinking about John 1 and he's – there's that promise in the gospel of John.
Speaker 1And our sonship is connected with the sonship of Christ in John. So just continuing on what you said there.
Speaker 3He's the firstborn of many brethren.
Speaker 1Yeah. Yeah. And that's – he says that we should be called the sons of God. Therefore, the world knoweth us not because it knew him not.
Speaker 2Yeah. Which is a reminder of John 17, that high priestly prayer where he's commissioning them to go and sending them to go. He was sent into the world. Yeah. Right? And I don't read John 17 and say, well, we can be in unity with God the same way that Christ was because that would make us a person of the Trinity or a divine person. I read that text to say that he is commissioning us to be ambassadors. Yeah. You know, 2 Corinthians 5 where we have been called to live up to the stature of Christ, measure up to the stature of Christ. He is our example.
Speaker 1And that's interesting. The language – okay, so if son of God throughout the New Testament is supposed to be taken to mean God the son, second person, then it does complicate some of – to your point what you were just talking about is it's very evident from the New Testament that we will be like him. I mean that's – and that's what – again, the next – verse 2, chapter 3, verse 2 in 1 John, he said, Beloved, now we are the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be. But we know that. When he shall appear, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. And then once again, another statement of continuity in verse 3. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. It's – so yeah, I could see the trouble there because you are left with the question of like are we going to be unified with the Trinity? Like is this going to be – or are we going to be a part of the second person in some divine way? Of course, you know. Those questions need not be worked out from a oneness perspective, which is that when we speak of the son of God, we're talking about something especially human, that this is the human disclosure of God in the earth. And so that's – and going – some of that goes back to as well, he says in chapter 5 in verse 5 and 5, 1 John 5 and 5, Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the son of God? This is he that came by. By water and blood, even Jesus Christ. Not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the spirit that beareth witness, because the spirit is truth. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in the earth, the spirit, the water, and the blood, and these three agree in one. If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater. For this is the witness of God, which he hath testified of his son, he that believeth on the son of God. The witness in himself, and he that believeth not God, hath made him a liar, because he believeth not the record that God gave of his son. So this is a passage that gets ripped apart a lot. Ironically, you see both Trinitarian and Oneness thinkers depend heavily on verse 7 to defend their doctrine, because if you're talking to Oneness believers who are trying in this passage, they are also trying to see persons. They emphasize these three are one. And if you're a Trinitarian and you're also trying to – to defend this idea that this is talking about three persons, you say there are three. And so you get this face-off where it's like it's three, it's one, it's three, it's one. And the irony is you're both wrong, is that this isn't talking about persons. Or you just say that verse is not in Scripture and just don't deal with it. Yes. There is a third crowd. There is the argument for the minority-majority text, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. We can – we'll talk about that. Sorry, I had to throw up.
Speaker 2No, that is absolutely – You know, that's my default position. Whenever I can't explain something, I just say it's not supposed to be there.
Speaker 3Well, okay, and just – sorry. No, go right ahead. But even with Matthew 28, 19, there's a lot – I shouldn't say a lot. There are – Erasmus. There is a growing number of oneness people that are saying that Matthew 28, 19 was changed. It wasn't the original, all that. To my knowledge, there is no manuscript evidence for that.
Speaker 1No, and the argument – not to go down a rabbit trail, but the argument is largely based on a misunderstanding of how the King James Version Bible was put together. But we can talk about that in another episode. But back to your comment. Wait, the records in – so if you read this and – if you read this continuously and you understand what the writer is saying here, he never deviates from his chief claim is talking about the record of God, the witness of God. When he says there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, first of all, he could have said Son, and he didn't. And that's not – that's not random. He could – yeah, it's – when the word, word is chosen, it's for a reason. And the Holy – and these three are one. There are three that bear witness in the earth, the Spirit, the water, and the blood, and these three agree in one. If you take this to mean person. Then you have two or three spirits, one word, and then you have blood and water that are also personified in some way. The three that bear record and the three that bear witness, read verses 9 and 10. He is talking about the record and the disclosure of God's Son to his people that it is one testimony. And this goes back to what we read earlier in 1 John, is that there was this tension in the first century between is Jesus the Christ of the scriptures or is he not? And there were other men to your point. Well, we opened. We opened with about the talking about the false Christ and John talks about the spirit of antichrist and, and this tension that exists. John is, is in many ways exactly what we've been doing over the last few weeks. He is unifying the witness of the scriptures and the witness of the church that the testimony that we have, we have borne witness of. We've seen, we've touched it. We felt with our own hands. We have experienced it, that this is one witness with all that was written about and Moses and the prophets and the when we talk. And again, talking about the record in the. The spirit, the water and the blood, and these three agree in one, the, the continuity that exists between from, I would say Abraham, but really it's Adam, Adam, all the way through the baptism of Jesus, the witness of the spirit, the crucifixion, the bearer, the resurrection, the outpouring of the Holy ghost on the day of Pentecost, John is emphasizing that this is not just one witness, but that this is God's record. This is God's disclosure to man. And if you reject that, so getting back to verse nine and 10. And he says for this, uh, for this is the witness of God, which he had testified of his son. He that believeth on the son of God, half the witness in himself. And he that believeth not God hath made him a liar because he believeth not the record that God gave of his son. And this is the record that God has given to us eternal life. And that this life is in his son. My, this, this, interestingly, this, this passage, um, Michael Servetus deals with this in not restitution, Petitio. It's the first one that he wrote on his first iteration of on errors, which I think was when he was in his twenties. He deals with this passage extensively talking about for all the reasons I've laid out presently. This of course, can't be about a Trinity where he met, there are six witnesses that are mentioned here. And just for clarity, he lived in what? 16th century. Yeah. So 1500s. Yeah. He, he writes about this, that the, that these six records, these six witnesses, the heavenly witness and the earthly witness, the, the, the, uh, the witness initiated by heaven. And I guess if you could say it in, in a spiritual realm and in the earthly realm, that this is one record, one, one witness, one agreement. And his, he, he goes through in details. Um, his explanation is beginning at Abraham. He says that, um, from the day that God called Abraham all the way through the resurrection and the outpouring of the spirit. That's the point. That's the point that he's trying to make. But of course, this is, there's no talking here of persons. There is talking here of records and witnesses,
Speaker 3which in a witness. So of that eternal life and, and what the son has done, but I love looking at verse 13. So back to another thesis statement or purpose of intention, these things have I written unto you in Jeremiah. I want you to comment on this, that, uh, unto you that believe on the name of the son of God, that ye may know that you are the son of God. And that you are the son of God. And that you have eternal life and that you may believe on the name of the son of God.
Speaker 1Yeah. And that gets back to the, what he's emphasizing about there, the three that bear record in heaven and three that bear witness in the earth is that God's self-disclosure to man was always through this name that is revealed both in the law and the prophets and, uh, was manifest to us in the earth in Christ. And has we bear witness of it now in the church through the Holy spirit, that this image of court. Now you could go the other way. If you were, if you were like a diehard Christian, you could go the other way. You could go the other way. You could absolutely know. I hang my hat on the doctrine of the Trinity on this passage. You could do that if you want, but the issue that you run into is it requires you to read this passage only in isolation and not with the rest of the new Testament, because when you get to Romans chapter eight, when you get to Ephesians chapter four, um, the book of revelation, there are so many other passages that not only blur the lines between these supposed distinctions, but to your point about Matthew 28, 19 seem to disclose them in that one name, which you were just talking about. Is that true? Yeah. That is not wildly different from what John is saying here about God's self-disclosure to man through this record is one. And it's all revealed in one. And this is you are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power,
Speaker 3you know, so, so what, what is the significance then of, of writing so that there can believe on the singular name?
Speaker 2Yeah. One of the things that I immediately go back to too is for, or John one 12, but as many as received him to them, gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name. What I think is incredibly interesting is you get to chapter two and you have that first sign, right? The, the, the, the first miracle, the John two, John two, John two. Yeah. Uh, where, uh, Jesus is at the wedding in Cana of Galilee and you have there picking up in, uh, verse 23 to, I think it's verse 23. Um, I can cheat. I've got my Bible in front of me. Um, yeah, yeah. Verse 23 to verse 25, where it says now he was in Jerusalem at the Passover in the feast day. Many believed in his name, but there's a caveat there. It says when they saw the miracles, which he did. And there's a little bit of a word play there in the Greek, because it says in the next verse, but Jesus did not commit himself unto them, or he didn't believe in them because he knew all men and needed not that any should test them. And he did not commit himself unto them, or he didn't believe in them to testify of man for he knew what was in man, which is why we get the next chapter where it's not a coincidence that Nicodemus comes to him and he has questions. And Nicodemus is a, a roller, a teacher of the Jews. And, um, when he has questions, Jesus answers what was really in his heart because he knew why he really came. So it's not confusing. And, uh, I, I also think about Colossians two where it's because all the fullness of the Godhead was there in the in the man, Jesus. Right. And that's why he has a name that is exalted above any other name. It's because he is the, the testimony of the Lord in the earth. And sometimes maybe, maybe it's a little bit, um, uh, just because of this theology that we get from the new Testament. Uh, but sometimes I get a little bit frustrated when we sing songs and I'm not going to pick on our musicians. I think our musicians do a fantastic job. Uh, but when we sing songs and we never make it to the name, you know, we sing about the name, which name I'm going to get there. I'll make it. I'll make it. Uh, I call it rounding the basis. You know, it's one thing to get to first to, to the first base and, uh, have partial revelation or to even sometimes we sing songs and we, we get to, to, to sing about the revelation that the patriarchs had and the Lord visited Moses and said, I'm going to show you, I'm going to reveal myself to you in a way that the patriarchs had not known me. And then we get the revelation of the fullness of the Godhead and the name that's exalted high above any other name, the name of the son of God. And we get to that point. And sometimes we have songs and we stop short in a way that it sounds like we still are living with the theology or the revelation of the patriarchs. And we miss that. John wrote this and says, Hey, we got to, we got to get to the name. We've got to, I want you guys. And if our music is singing a theology, if it's preaching a doctrine, we should be considerate of what doctrine we're preaching through our music. Because I think that that's what it is, right? We, I think with our music, our songs, they are, it is such a gift to have fantastic music, because they are catchy bits. And I don't mean it just in the sense of it's just catchy, but they are distilled sermons. Songs can be distilled sermons and people can grab onto those things and learn a lot of theology that they just sing to themselves regularly. And if we're not careful about the theology that we're producing in our songs, we can produce songs and we only say Yahweh. Yeah. Andrew
Speaker 1ruined a song for me a while ago. It was actually hilarious. And it just, this is just your point that it can happen to anybody. And we don't always think about it, but it does happen. I don't remember the name of that song, but the one that says there is no weapon that has ever left a mark on you. And we were like, I think we were sitting at maybe Quincy's or something. And you had said something to the effect of like, you know, like, how crazy is that? I was like, do we sing that? And I was like, they jabbed a spear into his side. Yeah. Like actually,
Speaker 3and I'm so bad with lyrics because
Speaker 1our doctrine hangs on the belief that a weapon did wound like a weapon left a mark. He even told his disciples, look at the marks.
Speaker 3Just to be clear. Okay. I, that I always, and anytime I bring that song up, I always have to ask, okay, how does the chorus go? Cause I always forget, but I love the chorus. The song, the course of that song is amazing, but it's just that, that one line because yeah, the nails and, you know, he got whipped too.
Speaker 1And I think that when like, you know, whether it's songwriters or sermon writers, what happens is the message they're trying to send is the unconquerability and invincibility of God. Which is, is, which we believe, which is wonderful. But the words that were chosen to display it were words that shade part of the scripture, even accidentally. And we do that in sermons too. Like we, there are times where people, was it you that told me about the book, uh, right message, wrong tech as I was called GK Beal. Yeah. Um, right. Doctrine, wrong text, right. Doctrine, wrong text is like where people have a good sense of what they're trying to say. And they know that what they're trying to say rings true from the scriptures because it's testified in many places, like the, whether it's the thematic or archetypal or whatever, but they may maybe rest the scriptures in doing so. I think songs, we do that too. And but to your, what you were just saying though, about, um, about the, the revelation that we've got to get to this revelation. That's all John is trying to say when he talks about the records and witnesses in the heavens and in the earth, as he's talking about the one thing, all of these have in common that everything that he said, the father, the word, the spirit, the spirit, the water and the blood, the one thing that he's talking about is the one thing that he's talking about. And the one thing that all of this has in common is the name Jesus. And it's really that
Speaker 3simple. And maybe just to, to build on the significance of why that even matters and why you can't, you cannot deny the sonship of Jesus is just, again, we're, and maybe just for clarity amongst ourselves, we, we often say like, we're looking at the Godhead in Genesis or we're looking at the Godhead in Exodus where I think we're right now in the general epistles, we're, we're using certain texts and kind of using that as our base. And then we kind of branch out. So I know we're, we're looking to go back into maybe first Peter or something, but specifically looking at first John two, where it talks about if we sin, we have an advocate with the father. And that is what is so critical because if we lose the sonship and what do we mean when we say sonship, we've, we've talked about this in other lessons. I know sometimes we, you know, we're, we're thematic. So some of these things, keep coming up, but he is the propitiation for our sins. He's the one that turned back. the wrath, right? Propitiation. He's the one that turned back the wrath of God. He, as the son, the man, the obedient, and it even, he even says Jesus Christ, the righteous. So when we're talking about sonship, we, we are talking about Jesus in his humanity. And I want you guys to maybe comment on this too, because, you know, just in reading Trinitarians, our Trinitarian friends, they often are going to say that sonship automatically means deity. They're, they're, we're, we're using sonship here as humanity, but they oftentimes are going to look at sonship being something divine. So how can a text like this, if we're talking about Jesus as the son, how can we look at that and say, we're not denying he is God in the flesh, but what's being focused on when we say son is the flesh.
Speaker 2Yeah, I would, I would say my, my first, kind of reaction to that is that we lose the death of, of, of Christ, right? That is the, that is what we've been, not just aiming at, that's what we've been discussing when we talk about his humanity, right? Something had to die. And it wasn't just that something had to die, but it pleased the father, right? That he would. And so when I read Isaiah 53 and that coming suffering servant, of course, when we start to get into John's gospel and John's epistles, we start to see where the suffering servant will also be the resurrected King. If he's going to resurrect, he has to die. And it takes a, it takes a man to die or a human, I should say, it takes a human to die. And if God had never manifest himself in flesh, right? If he first Timothy three 16, then we would not have had that, uh, that surety, that confidence that he, he made a way to that last thesis statement that we were just looking at. And now we have, because of that, we have eternal life. And that's why we go into verse 14. It says, and this is the confidence that we have in him, that if we ask anything, according to now, it doesn't say according to my wishful thinking, it doesn't say according to my imagination. It says, according to his will, he heareth us. And what's so important about that is that I, I think that sometimes we limit the will of God in our lives because we don't have big enough imaginations. Sometimes we've his, his, uh, eyesight, his eyesight, right? His, his, uh, knowledge is far greater than anything that we have. And sometimes we can limit what God would like to do for us. Or even sometimes we can expand what God would like to do for us. Right. For us in a way that he never intended because we are asking something that is not according to his will. And if he truly is King in our lives, then we should be willing to say, Lord, your will be accomplished just as he did when, when he, when he took on that cup of suffering.
Speaker 1Yeah. And the other, I think that when it comes to discussing it with Trinitarians, the irony is, I think, and I, I don't think I know, um, from, uh, doing, uh, Bible study a couple of years ago with a guy who was, uh, he was Baptist and he was going through a Christian education program of some kind, and they were working through, uh, early Christian heresies. And, uh, one of the ones that they had to cover was from, again, from a Baptist school, it was civilianism. And they were teaching these people that, um, these, uh, modalists that they believe that God died on the cross, that, that God, the father died, that God, and, and of course, um, they called this heretical. The irony for me was when he was explaining it to me, I kind of let him finish. And I was like, I think that it is, if you're articulating Trinitarian doctrine to the letter, if you're, if you're articulating it the way that it is generally presented, I believe it is the Trinitarian persuasion that would have to say that God died on the cross, specifically one third of God, because to your point, sonship is something divine. Now we, from a oneness perspective, we say that the son died on the cross, but when we say son, we don't just mean God wrapped in flesh. We don't just mean a spirit being that look like a man. We don't just mean that he, uh, was God who came in the appearance of a man. We're talking about truly man and truly God. Now the ironically to caveat this, any Trinitarian that you talk to will say they believe Jesus Christ is truly man and truly God. So I'm not trying to straw man. What they believe about the Christ. My only point being is that generally when they talk about the crucifixion, they will say that the man died on the cross. And the irony is, is that from a oneness perspective, that's all we're saying is that it was Jesus Christ, the man truly man who died. And he had to be man because God is a spirit. A spirit of course, cannot be crucified. A spirit can't die. God can't die. And I think most Trinitarians would agree. It would be nonsensical for them to say one third of God died for three, one third of God ceased to exist for three days. That doesn't make any sense either. So the irony is like, we're actually coming to a point of agreement on this principle is that maybe stop saying God, the son, like, I think that that would be like a good for the other than water baptism, which seems very evidently to me to be the first thing that you can address positively with any Trinitarian thinker, discuss water baptism with them. And you'll generally get somewhere quicker. But the second layer would be maybe abandoned the language of God, the son, because it's not in the Bible. Son of God. And we all agree that the son of God died on the cross. We all agree that the son of God is truly God and truly man. I think that the barrier in languages, it kind of exists in that realm. The funny thing is, I'm not sure that we always agree on what we mean by man. And so when I say that he is truly God and truly man, when nobody, one is Trinitarian, nobody has any problem discussing his divinity. I don't think everybody wants to talk about, Jesus, God with us, et cetera. But the Jesus truly man part is those are the passages that both camps skirt around quite a lot. Even like second Corinthians five, I pulled up here. Second Corinthians five and 20 says, now, then we are ambassadors for Christ as though God did God did beseech you by us. We pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God for he has made him to be sin for us who knew no sin that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. That's a radical statement that gets rolled over very quickly is that when you talk about Isaiah's suffering servant, he, he bore our transgressions. What does that mean? He, he carried our transgressions. He became sin for us. Is that, well, when you start thinking about this, literally, of course, this had to be a man. Oh, only a man can bear sin.
Speaker 3Well, in a lot of things we've talked about in the past where Jesus is baptism, God doesn't need anointing, but a man does. We talked about that. Jesus praying in the garden. No, he was not praying to himself. Okay. But as a man, he was praying. He's not, another member of the Trinity asking another member of the Trinity for help or submission. He is praying as a man. And I think a lot of these distinctions, when we have problems or I shouldn't say problems, but when we have questions looking at, well, what do I do with, you know, there's two some things. Well, I, I think it'd be safe to say that a majority of those can be answered by saying or asking, is he doing this in his divinity or is he doing this in his flesh? And I think that would solve a lot of, of questions.
Speaker 2I would just say, and I know you mentioned a part of this, right? Like for, I don't think it's odd that there's general uncomfortable, like we're uncomfortable with some of these texts on all sides of the aisle, right? We recognize and know that Jesus, truly God, truly man, right? And the uncomfortableness I think comes in trying not to make a statement or say something that sounds like you are. Jehovah's witness or Aryan. Aryan or yeah. And one of these crazy heresies, you know, where, where you're saying, or, or is it, is it a binatarian? I think that's the view, right? Where you're saying that Jesus was just a man. He was not God. And so I think.
Speaker 1Or the other side of the Teclemarium doctrine that he is, that he was not a man. He only appeared to be a man. He was a spirit being like wrapped in a meat suit kind of thing. And, and I ironically Teclemarium, doctrine was in principle rooted in what they perceive to be a radical defense of the oneness of God. That if you speak of there being distinction in any way, you are violating the oneness of God. If you speak of Jesus as anything ever than less than God, you are in a, you're an apostate, you're a heretic. And they approach the oneness of God in that way. The problem is the scriptures while simultaneously defending the oneness of God, don't present the oneness of God that way. You know, Jesus is the one that said, why call us thou me good? There's none good, but God, like how could he say that? You know, if you, if you're, if you're truly trying to draw this, you're trying to blur, blur all the lines and the boundaries and say, no, no, no, no. It's just a ventriloquist act. This is just God talking to himself. He's just appearing to be a man. Cause he's trying to trick people or something. It's like, no, like if you have to, you have to acknowledge that Jesus Christ is obedient. He is a servant. He is, he is sent, you know, like all of this stuff. He's, he is a prophet. He is the priest. He is a King. It's, you know, those are all human roles. The priesthood being among them, you know, one of the most important for the general epistles. is this attitude of, uh, Christ, not just the priesthood of Jesus Christ, but how it relates to our relationship with him. And I didn't mean to cut you off, but that, yeah, teclamarism is, is a big, um, you know, it was a big, obviously it caused a big controversy in the UPC.
Speaker 2So I think this will, where you went with that will help us transition maybe to first Peter, right? Because like, I think quote unquote Christendom today, and I don't mean Christendom in like the, uh, the, the weird, like conquer idea idea that comes with that term. I just mean like generally speaking, Christianity is uncomfortable with, with exploring what the text is saying about the humanity of Christ, because there's that, that sense of, of danger that we're going to commit a heresy, but the
Speaker 1apostles didn't share that
Speaker 2fear. Yeah. And it's almost to the extent where we create a heresy on the other side. I'm not even almost like you mentioned a few, right? Like there is that. That heresy that you fall into on the other side, because you're unwilling to say what the text says. And the, the largest, and I think even for, uh, teachers or preachers that we have listening to us or someone who's just giving a Bible study or someone who is, and I say, just like it's, uh, I don't mean that as like a negative thing. I mean, like you might, you might not be involved in, in like some kind of pulpit ministry, but no matter who you are, you have to be comfortable. Yeah. Living in the text and being grounded in rooting and rooted in what the text says and what the text is trying to, to communicate to us. Because to your point earlier about the importance of he, he really did die and three days later he got up and that was what we aimed at. Uh, when we looked at something like Hebrews, right, he wasn't just the high priest, he was the sacrifice as well. And he presented himself as both the high priest. And he was prepared as the sacrifice. And because of that, and us now beloved, are we the sons of God? And because of his priesthood, now we can get to a text like, uh, first Peter two, where he, he starts to call back to the old Testament and looking at Exodus 19, uh, that's that text that is really within in here and, and maybe a few others, uh, but we can get, uh, wherefore. So it is contained verse six, uh, first Peter two, six, uh, in, in the scripture, behold, I lay in Zion, a chief cornerstone elect precious. And, uh, he that believeth on him shall not be confounded unto you. Therefore, which believe, uh, he is precious, but unto them, which it would be disobedient, the stone, which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner. Some of the Psalms, right? And the stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, even to them, which stumble. At the word being disobedient, where into also they were appointed, but ye here's where Exodus 19 enters a chat are a chosen generation, a Royal priesthood in Holy nation, a peculiar people that ye should shoo forth the praises of him who has called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.
Speaker 1Yeah. A couple of things that are there that stand out to me. Number one, um, I believe it was Paul who specifically described. Jesus Christ, he said to the Greek, to the Greeks, it's foolishness, but to the Jews, he says, it's what he says, it's a stumbling block. Well, the same language is used here by Peter when he says, uh, when, again, to your point, quoting some of the Psalms, uh, talking about the Jesus being made the head of the corner and a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, even to them, which stumble at the word being disobedient, where into also they were appointed, but you are a chosen generation of Royal priesthood and Holy nation in a peculiar people. There's a couple of things. Here, number your point about the, there's a continuity of language here about the Royal priesthood, the Holy nation that comes out of the Exodus. Um, but also just that, uh, that affirmation, the same thing that we saw in John is that in the emphasis on Jesus as the anointed one, Jesus is the Christ. He is the one that was spoken of in the law and the prophets and the rejection of Christ while it was known by God. And while it was, uh, something that of course, uh, and according to the writer here, an appointed thing, um, he says to those that believe to those who are, to those who are, uh, what was the words that he used? He said he had to, he is precious and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Um, this, uh, this language of priesthood is not different from John's, uh, to, we were just reading together, beloved. Now we are the sons of God and it does, and it does not yet appear. We are the sons of God and it does not yet appear. It does not yet appear. and they've received the Holy Spirit. What did the first century church believe about the outpouring the Holy Ghost. Well, the denominational world has for a long time hung their hat on this idea of confession and belief, but we don't agree on what we mean by confess and believe. And beyond that, when we talk about even this last line here, unto obedience and the sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ, grace into you and peace be multiplied. When we talk about obedience is a four-letter word in a lot of the denominational Christian world, but the work of the Holy Ghost is a work that will lead you to obedience. And the idea that you talk about holiness, be holy for I am holy. If your theology about being in Christ, if it is at odds with obedience, or if you see holiness and separation, as a works under justification that you need not, you need not do, then not only do you not, not only are you not in alignment with the teaching of the apostles, you don't have the Holy Ghost. And that, and that's just something that people have a hard time squaring with is this idea in both camps. And I've seen it, I've seen it from the denominational world that just believes in confess the sinner's prayer and you're saved. And I've seen it from the Pentecostal realm that says, as long as you have been dunked in water in Jesus name, and you talked in tongues one time, your salvation is secure. Well, both missed the mark because the purpose of the Holy Ghost, this work of sanctification, it, it's, it calls you to obedience. And when Jesus told his disciples, if any man cometh after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross and follow me. These, this, if you love me, keep my commandments. These injunctions are repeated by his apostles that I was thinking about this day reading first John, John repeats that it's like, it's crazy. John was there when Jesus said at the first time, I was thinking about this day reading first John, I was thinking about this day reading first time that if you love me, keep my commandments. If any man come after me, let him deny himself.
Speaker 3And it's not, it's, it's not an earning. It's not merit. And that's what I think is so interesting. Sorry to cut you off, but just like when we say works, we're saved unto good works that doesn't works and earning. They're not the same. They do not. They're not connected. That takes us to James, but we can get there. Right. But does that make sense? Yeah. Because we, we, sometimes we just say, well, if we're working, that means we're trying to earn salvation. No, we're saved. To good works. And, and, and the Holy ghost is trying to shape us into that, that obedient saint, the called out one, right?
Speaker 2Yeah. A while back I was listening to a podcast. Um, it was someone interviewing, I think it was Tim Keller. Um, I'm, I'm working from, from, this was probably 10 years ago. And for all of our listeners who are questioning that I am older than, uh, 18 years old, how many students just in today, I've had weeks of school today. Today alone, I've had four students say, ask me, they're like, you're not 21.
Speaker 1Someone told me yesterday, they thought Andrew was the youngest one on the show.
Speaker 2I'll take the oldest. I'll take that. I'll take that. Um, so, uh, I was listening to this podcast and, uh, Keller made a similar point about, uh, the things that you are saved to do. And the interviewer, uh, who, who regularly is, as I remember, uh, kind of ragged on the Dutch Calvinist type, um, uh, kind of had a callous response and said, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa. That, that sounds like, that sounds like work triteousness. That's, that's not, you know, even though he regularly rags on, on the Calvinist type. And it was funny because Keller, I thought had a brilliant response. He said, no, it's not works. It's effort. And today in American Christianity, we are, uh, we turn a, a, uh, a nose to effort. And we accuse people of saying that you have to, you have to have some effort of preaching a works righteousness doctrine. And the big point is that, uh, either salvation works and it changes who you are and you're saved unto good works or it doesn't.
Speaker 1Something else though, that I think people miss is most of the time. In the epistles, when it's talking about not of works of righteousness, which we have done, this is always framed around the law of Moses. When we talk about works, he is not talking about good behavior. He's not talking about ethical behavior. And if you don't believe me, read first Corinthians, like the entire epistle is this demand. It's a demand. It is prescriptive, not descriptive. It is, Hey, this, you, you should not be doing this. You should be doing this. If you do this, you'll be fruitful. If you don't do this, you'll be lost. And so people could say, well, if you're going to pit James against Paul and say, James was pro works and Paul was anti works, you haven't read any of Paul's epistles. I dare say not in their entirety. Anyway, works of righteousness, which we have done, listen, you could have kept all 613 commandments in the law perfectly. And without the cross, you were still dead in your sin by the works, but by the law was no man justified. All right. And the blood of bullocks and rams was never enough to save any, the entire, this is the message of Paul, by the way, is that his brethren had misunderstood the purpose of the law that you think that by keeping the law, you're going to achieve salvation, sanctification, whatever. And he was simply trying to teach them. The law was our schoolmaster to lead us to Christ, that this was a means to a Christ end. And when, when we mix these two things and we say, well, if you say that I have to be obedient to be saved, then you believe in salvation by works. Well, if you're saying by works, if, if by works, you mean obedience, then yes, I think that you need works. Um, I don't find anywhere in the scriptures where the apostles gave an adjunction against works as moral behavior or works as obedience by that very definition. Repentance is a work. If you, if your definition of works is simply obedience, then no man even need repent. You are a true Calvinist. I mean, you are a true reformed theologian. If you believe don't even you, don't you dare even repent because if you, you're totally depraved, you can't repent. Like it's this attitude of like, it's, it's an abdication of responsibility is what it is. When in reality, the works that are being talked about most of the time, and certainly in the context of what we're discussing is works, the law, which were never a means of justification.
Speaker 2Yeah. I would make a small, just maybe even a small caveat point here. Uh, like, like you mentioned, uh, the, the pitting of Paul versus James, um, I think that comes down to maybe even not so much of people who have not read the epistles of, of Paul in their entirety. There is a, and we come back to this often, right? There is a hermeneutical, a difference between, uh, for us, as we read these, we see that they are both looking at the old Testament, uh, in the same way. And they are preaching. They're not preaching contradictory things. They are focusing our attention on distinctions, uh, distinctive things that we need to take a heat to, whereas you might have a methodological difference with someone who, uh, they are looking at this text through a different lens. And they're saying, well, these are contradictory things. And that's why it's so critical that I think that we started with the old Testament as our starting point, because when you do that, some of these things in the new Testament that may have, we, we might have been able to make sense of, um, they, they come, they are illuminated in a different way. And to that point, right, James, when he opens his epistle, uh, if I, if we can go there, um, he, he starts to, uh, pretty quickly, uh, talk about that. And so he is saying, uh, there, there, there is something that, that we have to follow and it's that perfect law of liberty. And so when he gets down into, uh, verse 19, uh, or, or read verse 12 first, cause that he says it twice. So read verse 12. So he says, he says there in verse 12, uh, blessed is the man that endureth temptation for when he is tried, he shall receive the kind of life which the Lord hath promised him. And so he's saying, uh, there, there, there is something to them that love him. Uh, I'll just read down a little bit. Excuse me. Sorry.
Speaker 1Two 12. I apologize. I was, I'm on the wrong page, but you were talking about the law of liberty. One 12 is important for that too. Actually, that actually worked out really well. Um, because, uh, this gets back to Jesus. Uh, if you love me, keep my commandments, but, um, two 12 is what I was talking about. I apologize. Yeah.
Speaker 2So, uh, maybe even building to two 12 here, uh, when, when he starts off it, maybe verse 22, I'll just start there so that we can get there quicker. Um, but, and not hearers only deceiving your own selves. Uh, for if any be a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is likened to a man beholding his natural face in a glass for he beholdeth himself and go with his way and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was, but who so looketh into the perfect law of liberty and continueth therein. He being not a forgetful here, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. So that is telling you that you have to be a doer of the work as you look into the perfect law of liberty, which is distinct from that, that old covenant law that showed us the sins that we lived in, but did not give us the empowerment to do that.
Speaker 1But now in Christ, well, and think about too. So he says, he says he deceiveth himself. How are you to see like, stop and think about that. What does he mean by you're deceived? It means you believe in God. That is not true. And this gets to what you just said about the law. The law was our schoolmaster, Lisa. Christ. It was given for two reasons to point out our sin, lead us to Christ. Okay. To point out our sin. Jesus said, you have heard it said he is written in the law. When he, when he goes through this in Matthew, we read this in more thorough going, but he says, if a man committed adultery, if a man, uh, takes a woman, that's not his wife, he's, he's committed adultery. But I say to you, if a man looks on a woman to lust after he's already committed adultery in his own heart, you know, uh, same thing with murder, um, hating your brother in your heart. And so I, I, somebody asked me one time about this. They were like, well, it seems like Jesus injunctions are actually harder than the law. And it's like, they're actually, they actually have continuity with the law. If you understand what the law was given to do, the law was given as that silhouette, that contrast to our sin to show us our, you couldn't see sin without the law. And now that you can see your sin, you see all Jesus is, all Jesus is teaching is the law is that, Hey, you think that by keeping the letter of, I didn't sleep with that woman. That wasn't my wife. Right. But the, the seed that that begins in is in the heart is that if a man looks on a woman to lust after he's already committed adultery, why? Because to your point about where your affections and your devotions lie and what the spirit empowers us to do is that unto good works doesn't just mean, well, the Holy ghost, just like, it's just this gradual, you know, like, okay, like just, you know, tomorrow you're just, you're going to be a little better in that, you know, it's like, but it's okay. If you, if you sin, it's okay. Like it'll just, it'll all be good. No, the, the purpose was to genuinely call it. Like we are saved people. I talked to my students about this in Hebrews. If I came up to you and I said, or if you were attacked by a bear and I saw you being attacked by this bear and I jumped in and I'd somehow stopped the bear from attacking you. Thank you. And you, you went free and, and somehow the bear didn't eat you. And you go to tell that story to somebody the next day and you say, Hey, Steven saved me. Their next question is probably going to be from what? Okay. Jesus, our salvation is not just salvation just so we can go to heaven and be in eternity. We were saved from something or we saved from sin and the penalty of sin. We're saved from sin, not in sin from sin. And like, that's the, there's that, that's distinction between what we teach and what much of the denomination world teaches is that you're, they, they teach you're saved in your sin. That when you come to Jesus and confess him as your Lord and savior, you're, your behavior doesn't change, but your feelings about your behavior change. That's not what we teach. We, we, I, I believe when you come to Christ, not only will your feelings about your behavior change, but your behavior will change. It must change actually.
Speaker 2Yeah. There are two things I would say first, if you see me fighting a bear, I will not
Speaker 1be any actual help. So yeah, yeah. I helped the bear.
Speaker 2Um, uh, that, that was a meme our viewers will probably get it if they're young enough, I think. Um, but, uh, the second thing I would say is it is not just scripture teaching us here to do better. It's teaching us to be better. And that's the big thing. It's not just Jesus in his teaching is pulling back, back that mask and saying, it's not just enough to look like you're doing good. Now I need you to start thinking good. I need you to just start behaving good when people are not looking. You've got to have the character and the integrity to line up with what this is teaching you. Why? Because
Speaker 3if we don't James two seven, that's blaspheming that worthy again, singular name by which he are called because you, if you are in covenant with the name, you better live up to what the name is commanding you. If the name redeemed you, then you, you better live accordingly. Otherwise you, you are taking his name in vain. It's not just a, a verbal taking in vain, but if the name saved you from, from something, Stephen, then if you go back to those things, you are showing that the name really doesn't, doesn't have an impact
Speaker 2to your point there about Exodus 20 verse seven, right? We don't just bear the image of God. We bear the name of God and we have to hold those two things. Well, we have to carry those things with honor and we've got to glorify him as we carry those two things because we represent him in this world, right? You went to, to, to, uh, second Corinthians, uh, six, right. Or, or, or second Corinthians five, sorry. And just before where you started reading, um, it teaches us that we have this ministry of reconciliation because God was manifest to us and he had that ministry of reconciliation. So we, we carry that responsibility now where we have to show and demonstrate to this world, the witness of the Lord. So we have to show as a witness. Now we can show other people that you can have life everlasting because I have life. My life has been changed because I have found the Lord. My life has not stayed the same. And I struggle through things and I've got to have a 12 step process. I'm not saying that, you know, building disciplines in your life is bad. That's not what I'm saying at all. But what I'm saying is he did something for me and believers, right? When you are filled with the Holy ghost, he, he does something for you.
Speaker 1He changes you. And James, his attitude is that faith is confirmed by works is that when he uses Abraham as that example in two and 14, we it's read all the time. Um, but if you read it throughout through the remainder of that chapter, what he's trying to say, he says, what does it profit my brother? And though a man say he has faith, he says he has faith and have not works. Can faith save him? What does he mean by can faith save him? Because this is where people put James against Paul. They say, um, through faith. Well, think about what Paul said. He said by grace through faith, not great in that. Now the Luther translation says by grace alone through faith alone, which is a contradiction in terms. But if you say by grace through faith, what do you mean by through faith? As in faith is a, you might imagine that faith is a path that you're walking. Well, he says it here. He says, what does it profit my brother? And though a man say he has faith and have not worked, can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you say to them, depart in peace, be warm, be filled. Notwithstanding, you give them not those things which are needful to the body. What does it profit? Even so faith of it, I have not works is dead being alone. Yeah. A man may say thou has faith and I have works. Show me thy faith without thy works. And I will show you my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God thou doest well. The devils also believe in tremble, but wilt thou know, O vain man, O vain man, that faith without works is dead. Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? In other words, when you think about that story of Abraham and Isaac, God speaks to Abraham, says, take thy son, thine only son. If Abraham's response had been like, Lord, I believe that that is what you were telling me to do. I believe that you told me to take my son up that mountain. I believe that's your voice. And when people ask me about this, I'm going to tell them, that's what you spoke to me. And I know that I believe it. But if he had stopped there, then not only would he have been disobedient, but he would have proven that he didn't want, this is the problem with our conception of faith. If I say I have faith in you, I think I've done this exercise with you guys before, but if I say I have faith in you, nobody thinks that means I acknowledge you exist. That's ridiculous. If I say I have faith in you, I am saying I have a confidence toward you. I have a confidence in your character. I have, that I would stake my reputation on you. Well, when he says that Abraham, when he's talking about Abraham offering Isaac, he's saying Abraham proved it by saying, I have confidence that what God has spoken. If it's the voice of God that I'm going to listen and obey, I'm going to prove it by doing what he said. He takes Isaac and says, I'm going to march him up that mountain. And the way that you know that he believed what God said is by how he responded to what God said. That's the problem with people's conception of faith is they think, well, okay, I've got to obey. You're saying if I have to do all these things and that's how I earn salvation. No, you could do all of those things. And without Christ, you're still lost. I don't care if you are, if you, you know, give to charity, you know, twice a month and you, you know, pet your dog three times a day. And, you know, you've, you're faithful to your wife. That's all good stuff. It can't save you. The point being is that in Christ, if you really say you have faith and he called, why does he call him a vain man? He said, cause he said, it's just like somebody who, you see somebody in need and says, Oh, let your needs be met in Jesus name. And then walk away. It's like, well, hold on. Your talk is cheap. Like you've through empty words. You've acknowledged what you've seen. Like you've acknowledged their need, but you've done nothing to prove that you actually believe that they're in need. Cause if you actually believe that they were in need, you'd have done something about it. Abraham and Isaac is no different. He says, if you really had that kind of confidence toward God, that's what we mean. When we say I have faith in God, I have faith. Okay. Prove it. And James didn't have any problem telling people prove it.
Speaker 3And what I love about this, I'm teaching former prophets at IBC and, and love this fact. It just kind of hit me the other day was you have the father of faith right here. And then who's the second person? It's a prostitute, right? Is Rahab in Jericho. And what an amazing testimony that look, here's two examples. And they're both in the lineage of Jesus. They're both these, these faithful examples. And I love that. Likewise, verse 25, likewise, also was they have the harlot justified by works. And again, to pinpoint this, again when we say works we're not talking about what we've earned this is the grace of god through faith but they demonstrated their faith i think is what we're trying to say here there was a demonstration of their faith to show i'm not just saying this with words yeah but there's an actual belief in what i'm doing because what did the spies tell her you you hang out this the scarlet cord if that's not there your whole house is going to die it's very reminiscent of the passover right you got to keep everybody in the house if they're not in the house their lives are forfeit and we are you know we're not guilty of what happens to them but you hang this out then the whole house is going to be saved yeah and she does it and what happens and what caused what caused her
Speaker 1to do it was because she had faith she was confident that what they said is right god has given you this land why hang that scarlet thread out the window because i believe yeah and and that's that's all he's saying about works when i love the ending for is the body without the spirit isn't it dead so faith without works is dead also works is the animating quality of faith your faith should be animated by works and if there are no works i can guarantee you there's no life in that body there's no faith there
Speaker 2yeah and i like that that we go go back to that phrase about obedience and verse 19 there thou believest that there is one god thou doest well like that's not just a commendable thing like you're doing well if you believe there's one god thank goodness you don't believe that there are ten gods or or two gods or three or four right but the devils also believe and they tremble yeah and and that's my problem
Speaker 1with the way we conceptualize faith we say oh faith means i believe god
Speaker 2exists no and i think part of that is because uh through the history of thinking we have come to the place where belief is a mental ascent with no with no uh personal responsibility and i i love that phrase of that the title of that book responsible grace maddox right um i love the title because grace is response enabling and it's re it makes you responsible to act and so if god has called all people the act 1730 right the times of this ignorance god winked at but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent that means everyone is responsible
Speaker 1to act
Speaker 2we've been granted
Speaker 1access to faith is what it says and i know this is
Speaker 3not you know we're not getting into soteriology salvation uh issues here but i i've heard the accusation of people more in on our side of the aisle um that are rather that are pitted against us to say well you're making god weak you're making salvation contingent on what humans do when in reality i think it's the opposite because god is offering this he's providing the opportunity for us to choose in a way that's it's showing god to be even stronger that he can offer this and then he can say this is this is free will that has been given to you what are you going
Speaker 2to do with this yeah to your point there i i when i read especially like i think about the davidic covenant um and how david wanted to build a temple for the lord and he's wanting to do these things and the lord's like pause i will be the benefit of the devil and i will be the benefit of i will be the benefactor i'm the one who's going to build you a house right the great king the high king is saying i'm the one who's going to do this and he has already extended to us the invitation to come and because he's extended to us the invitation to come now it is our responsibility to choose whether or not we will follow that that invitation that he's given to us that high level maybe higher level than we need to use but that technical term universal provenient grace or that that thing that god gives that extension of god's that call from god that has happened for all people everywhere it is not that we have weakened the lord but that we have recognized that as the high king he has extended an opportunity for us to sit at his table and
Speaker 1that's the that that right there is what the last thing you just said he has extended us an opportunity is this is the issue because that the two major competing conceptions of salvation and especially and this matters of course to the priesthood we're talking about the two competing conceptions are christ was obedient so i don't have to be or christ was obedient so i could be and those they that we are at that point of convergence in what i'll just generically call evangelical christianity is either christ was obedient so i don't have to be he's absolved me of responsibility or christ was obedient to grant me access and i read this in ephesians chapter 3 verse 11 and 12 and say i know this isn't general epistles but ephesians 3 and 11 says according to the eternal purpose which he purposed in christ jesus our lord in whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him boldness he said we have access that doesn't demand and this you know going down a rabbit trail with the reform stuff i suppose but the bottom line is you just said it access he has grant he has given us and the opportunity to have the seat at the table he has invited us but that's a call to responsibility that's a that's a call to action and if you have faith you'll respond and
Speaker 2we and we are responsible if we don't that is we are culpable that is our choice if we choose
Speaker 3not to i don't know how much further we we want to keep digging into the general epistles but just maybe to um bring in some concise comments with when when we have the god the father language son of god christ jesus's death and then the working of the spirit we see god is working in in this salvation plan it was it was god's plan from the very beginning he's going to come as a man and die and then it's the spirit that's going to come and empower us and we see this through the epistles and and i love how both of you presented this that it is because of what he did that now we can be like him to kind of bring this out again because throughout the epistles there are these these instructions don't do this because you are not in that old world anymore yeah you're under you're under christ you have a name called over you yeah so i just think kind of to bring those elements uh in all together because he still is the king he's still on the throne and he's made a way for us to be with him yeah and i think even
Speaker 2if we conclude there with that right like it is such a beautiful thing to be a part of and i think it's such an honor and high privilege that we have been invited to uh into his family right uh we are we are part of uh the brotherhood if i can use that term from first peter ii we have been invited to be sons of god and we bear the image and the name of a great king and what a privilege
Speaker 1that is yeah awesome well i enjoyed this this was a good episode on the general epistles before we close a couple of things again thank you to truthbook co uh for producing this episode and then as well uh i believe uh uh our uh our resident um uh director of online learning from indiana bible college uh hedemius azunaga is uh going to uh give a quick uh a quick mention about uh about that program he's working with right now oh i'm i'm just finding out about it oh
Speaker 2um uh no uh there i know that that we've gotten some questions and comments about hey where can i study some of these things more in depth and there are great avenues to do that and one of i think one of the best uh avenues to to grow in your ministry um even if you feel like you might that that time of study has passed because you're you've aged out of the college experience or something uh there's not able to move or just not able to move yeah uh i think that there's no better opportunity than to uh indiana bible college does offer uh the the great option of taking some of those courses a number of those courses and working towards a degree at indiana biblecollege.com we have an online
Speaker 3learning program because you just were working on harmonetics right and then brother kilman has several i know you've got um some of brother henderson's leadership classes and then there's a few other professors i know that have worked on some great classes so
Speaker 1cool opportunity awesome awesome well thank you all again please uh subscribe to the show if you're if you've been listening to the show uh please subscribe apple podcast spotify youtube um that helps helps us it'll help you and we'll see you back for our next installment uh covering the book of revelations so it's gonna be a good one all right thank y'all
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