The Future of Wine Featuring Master Sommelier Ken Frederickson

(upbeat music) Well, hello and welcome to The Wine Access on Filthwerk Podcast. I am delighted to be in this brand new setting that you probably don't recognize, unless you've been to a place called Baha Mar. I'm sitting here in the Manor Bar at the Rosewood, which is a beautiful establishment. We are here because this weekend is the Baha Mar Culinary and Arts Festival. This is third year. It's my first year being here. And I have to tell you, it's pretty spectacular. But this guy next to me, he's a seasoned vet in more ways than one. This is your third-- - That is a mold. - That is not me, your old, rolled. But we're here to do a little wine thing at the festival here, which includes deaths and artists and of course what we do on the drinking side of things. But more importantly, we're here to talk about wine with you guys today. With me is Ken Frederickson, Master of Summily A, and a man who wears many hats in the wine industry and spirits industry for that matter. And so welcome. - I try, I hustle. - You hustle, we all kind of hustle. - We all do, actually. It's the only way to get ahead in this business. - I feel the same way. And you know what, you didn't have to, because you've been a Master of Summily for 20 plus years now. - Yes. - And you've found your way through multiple different industries within the wine world. But where have you landed now? - So today I am based in Chicago. I have a wholesale wine and spirits distribution company. And it's also headquarters for two separate spirits import businesses. So one focusing on Japanese whiskey and the other focusing on Italian, artigianale, family owned brands. So those imports come and go across the country. But in Chicago we sell directly into restaurants and retailers. - So two of like the fastest growing segments of our. - Yeah. - Right? - Yeah. - I mean, Japanese whiskey has been like, on the up and. - And. - It's not your wine as well. - Italian as well. So with the Japanese thing, I was actually better lucky than good. We started importing. - You need to be booked in this world. I am convinced. - You do. - Definitely. A little luck helps. So in 2010 we started importing Japanese whiskey and we had a really hard time getting people to buy. People weren't quite ready at that point. But they were very close. 'Cause by the time, 20 years was this. - 2010. When we started, when we started there was 13 distilleries in Japan. Today there's about 105 licenses. - Wow. - So in that 10, 11 years you've seen just an incredible growth and we were at the right place at the right time. So we have some amazing partners, great families that have these distilleries in Japan. And we've been bringing in Japanese whiskey for 11, 12 years now. And it's been a great run. Italian spirits are new for us. But I think that is a segment. Because some of these big companies have pushed the envelope a little bit. Compari, the Serrano, some of these. Everybody knows what a spritz is. Yeah, apparel. Though this is happening now where these craft brands are coming behind it. It's very similar to the wine world. You know, at one point in time in my career, there were just four conglomerates. Wine companies in the US that held about 70% of the sales. And you know, when you-- - Wow, that's a huge number. - Yeah, when you look at the wine company, Gallow, those companies-- - Consolation. - Consolation. They really held it all. And they pushed out there and they did a great job. And then behind it came all these artisans. And we saw, you know, for me being a sommelier at Spago and at Charlie Trotter and so forth, we were seeing brand new wines like flowers, which has, you know, grown and turned into a really nice brand and a big brand. Lots of wines I saw at the beginning and kind of see where their growth is. And I think today for me and the wine, on the wine side of things, as a small distributor or something we do, is we really try to manage the expectation of these producers. And it's great for us to know a producer that has a limit. Because we're only gonna be-- - In terms of scalability. - Correct. But we'd love to talk to a producer that says, "We have a wine relicence for 10,000 cases." Or we only wanna be 3,000 cases or 5,000 cases. You know, it's really hard conversation for us to have with a wine re that comes in says, "I wanna be the next Josh." Or "I wanna be the next me, me, me." - Right. - It's like, "Oh my God, we're not gonna be able to hang on to that." - Right. - So we know we're small, we know we're craft, artists and focused. We still follow the trends very carefully, but yeah, so that's what I'm doing today. - Busy, great. Well, this is perfect. 'Cause I really wanted to talk about sort of wine trends have a little inside baseball conversation. The last episode that we talked about sort of dug into wine distributorship and just very briefly, we came to in the weeds with him. But I think it gave people a glimpse into the behind the scenes side of our world, which is a very interesting one right now, because I'm sure you're seeing the headlines. I'm seeing the headlines of, you know, what is shifting in the wine world. - Right. - And so much of the conversation is around, you know, people are drinking less wine, et cetera, et cetera. But to me, and I don't know where you stand on this, it just seems like things have just shifted in terms of how people are drinking wine and why they're drinking wine. And so really what I want this conversation to be about today is, you know, you have people inside look at what is going on behind the scenes, what you're seeing in Chicago, both on this spirit side, on the wine side. I love that you brought up the Italian spirits because I think for me, that has been such a catalyst to bring more people into the wine world. - Yes. - These are these spritzes and all the things around mixing wine and cocktails. - Almost. - For Moose. - For Moose. - Huge, wine-based, you know, aromatic wine, essentially. And those are definitely entry into, into great wine as well. - Okay. - Or the Italian culture. - Yeah. - We're still a country in the US that imports more Italian wine than any other country. - I know that. - Yeah, we're the largest import, the largest import category is Italian. Back in his French, now the French were, in the last five years, they did eclipse Italy, but Italy's now back on top. So it's kind of neck and neck, but we drink more Italian wine than any other import category. - Yeah, well, and being a girlfriend Philadelphia, we love our Italian. - Oh, yeah. It indexes quite well there in Philadelphia. - I didn't realize until I moved back there and my fiance pointed out and he's like, you know when we go to any restaurant, if you look at the lift, the menu, it doesn't matter if it's sushi, it doesn't matter if it's steakhouse, there is always an Italian section on a Philadelphia wine, and Philadelphia menu. And I never noticed if it is absolutely right. Like we really do love Italian culture. - Look, in Chicago, we're not far behind. Further west you go, the more American it gets, the more, I think New York is maybe the exception. It's very international in New York for sure. - Definitely. - Well, that's where I started my, and I'm gonna praise them wine. That's where I started my wine career was in New York, and it was very international. And I always felt like it leaned very wrench heavy. So I didn't get a huge look into Italian wines until much later my career. And it really wasn't until I started visiting Italy that I started to understand the culture around a Italian wine. And then I think just Italian wine as a category. And I think it, to me, that was such a big aha moment and that you see the marriage between food and wine and culture there in a way that I don't think that we have fully embraced in the US. Except that we're starting to see it move in through these spritzes and through other things. So. - I hope we can find that because the pleasures of the table are so important today. - So important. - To get kids to drop their iPad and people to drop their phones. And to start with an apperateevi and to move on to a nice white wine and then a red wine and then maybe a Dutchistivo. And you know, have this sort of cultural interaction at the table is something that I really encourage because the cultures are just different. And I think we'll pick it up. People have to, and we are, but people have to really understand that there's just so much like you just said behind the entire culture of it. And that's part of what we want to push. And I think right now is a really good time to do it because younger people have this, I just read an article and I don't totally agree with it. It was written in 750 daily. It was a good article. It was really kind of on the idea that the sommelier is dead. Right. The word the sommelier. And I guess the pretense and kind of like this like hoity toityness kind of should be gone. But they moved into a place very quickly where it was like people on the, working on the four, working in wine on the four should be called like director of vibes and things like that. And that's a little too much for me, but I can see where they're going. I can see where they're going. I guess it's very millennial Gen Z of them, but yeah. I mean, it was like, I mean, you were a sommelier, I was a sommelier before, like you are kind of director of vibes. Like that is like you are. You were like in the absence of a traditional like matrede, like your job as a somm is to like really kind of curate the experience for the guest and not I think filters out into the room. So I agree with that. But I also am like, I think we're gonna find it. It's a little too much. Yeah, I think we're gonna find this middle ground because it's like a pendulum, right? So when I was a sommelier coming up, working in Charlie Trotter, I would say being a sommelier was one very technical. I was studying for the master sommelier. So it was a very technical and too really logical. And so the other end of this pendulum is really what this person was writing about. And that's this sort of illogical, very emotional. And you're right. It's exers, Zs and right behind that, when you turn the corner, it's gonna be the gen alpha like my son, who's eight years old. And giving me words I have never heard before. - No cap. - That's gonna be exactly. So that's gonna happen. And we're gonna have to kind of pay attention. But somewhere in the middle, we're gonna come back and we're gonna land somewhere in the middle. And it is gonna be maybe not as defined as it was when I was a sommelier. I was a sommelier, but not quite as loose as I see happening now. So we will find our way. I just, I find that I'm here. We'll see your strength. It smells so good. We're talking about wine and weaving and agriculture. Oh, wow, sure. This is great. Yeah, we're drinking Preskyl, which I think is maybe a winery year semi-familiar with. This is actually a winery that I is relatively new to me only within the last two years. Look at me. I just picked up and I immediately went to the back of the bottle. We did. And that is like a complete hat. That's the logical. Yeah. Technical habit. Yeah. Where a millennial or a Z, they would look at the front of the bottle. And they want that emotional connection. Yeah. And someone like me who's an ex, I'm going to look at the back. Okay, so it's what it's been meant to me. Why would you look at the back? So I'm looking for, well, I guess on the front we could probably find alcohol level, but I'm looking for any sort of technical information. I see. And you see a lot of wineries today that'll put what barrels they use. Yeah. What's the maybe even pH or acidity levels, things like that that are technical. How many cases were produced? Those kinds of things. So I'm kind of looking for that. And then I think today people are like, wow, that does look pretty cool. Yeah. That is, it looks a little Japanese. It looks a little. Well, they have the ocean on there. Exactly. I mean, it kind of exudes this sort of like freshness, maybe like coastal vibes. It looks like a woodblock print or something like this. So it's got a real nice artistic impression. Yeah. Well, we drink with our eyes first, right? We do. I mean, nobody wants to pick up a wine that has an ugly label. In fact, I was actually just talking to. I don't know if you knew Jonah and Sarah Beer. Yes. They were in tune with imports. We had them on the podcast a few episodes ago. Love Jonah. Yes, they're the best. Super good. He was saying that one of the first things they look for is a good label because people truly drink with their eyes. And I do think that is indicative of not only the previous generations, but the future generations. And I think that future generations are going to look more at the back label. Do you feel like we. I don't want to call it a problem, but maybe have a slight problem in the industry. We haven't traditionally offered enough information about the wines. Yes. I think we offered the wrong information. What's important for today, we need to explain what. Right, so it's what Demeter's certified is or what sustainability really means. People look now for coloric input everywhere. I'm not going so far as to say that we need a nutrition label on wine. But to have some sort of certification that would say where people would understand that this wine doesn't use added is, it doesn't have those kinds of things are going to be important. I think you're exactly right. And that information, people will ultimately, if they can engage in the front, they'll turn to the back and they'll find the information that's relevant to them to make a decision. So our largest wine consuming generation is aging out. The boomers are aging out and they are slowing down on wine consumption. And then you have a couple of generations where things are a little bit lost. But you still have a lot of people in control of wine, marketing that are also aging out. You see them. You see them. And they're having a real hard time to move into what's relevant. Right. So you see things like. I mean, I love Jordan, Salcedo's Ramona. Right? Yes. And so ahead of her time without her. So ahead of her time. I mean, I barely know her, but I know exactly what she was doing and the audience she was talking to. And it's been fantastic. Right? So there's needs to be a little bit less of that information that's not as relevant to today's consumer and a little bit more fun ways to say it. I mean, look at the success of like a winery like 19 crimes. Yeah. Who would have thought that there was going to be some sort of real virtual connection through the scanning of data on a mobile device that really talked about things that were really not what I would say are really super relevant to do. What's in the wine, but engage so many people emotionally. Yeah. That wine went crazy. Well, they also did something that I think is missing from the wine world, which is interacting with other markets and cultures. And I think in that we're not interacting with the music world. We're not interacting with the fashion world. We're not interacting enough with the food world. And I think 19 crimes was a great example, both with Martha and with Snoop and the label of just like getting out of our own little circle into other areas that people might not have otherwise found us. That's right. And I think to your point earlier about, you know, these more seasoned marketing executives, we have been blowing the whistle for a decade now talking about how do we get this next generation interested in wine and they keep doing the same thing over and over and over. And so when I read these headlines, like the wine sales are crashing, nobody's drinking wine. Well, listen, we've kind of been talking like this is not new news. Like we knew this is the director. And we kind of got lucky so to speak in 2020 with wine sales increasing the way that they did. But now that we are in 2024 and things have, you know, obviously consumption is down because we're not at home the way that we used to. I think we do need to relook at how we're marketing things and who we're marketing to and why people are drinking wine. People are not drinking wine today for the same reasons that they were. Right. And years ago last night, you mentioned to me that some of the bigger, we won't name names, some of the bigger Napa wines are seeing a little bit of a drop off in on premise, meaning restaurant consumption. And to me, I wonder if it's, you know, is that a shift in how people are drinking wine because it's these wines are just not integrated in their lives in the way that maybe they used to be in 2020. We had the pandemic and the pandemic provided the industry because everybody was drinking at home and you have what's called like IRI, scan data and things like that. Everybody was buying retail. All the generations. So all of a sudden you had this opportunity to really see trend data in a holistic environment which was retail. Nobody was going to restaurant. Right. So it all happened to retail. So you saw what young consumers were buying and what old consumers were still buying. So that was really helpful. And then as you come out of the pandemic, they're to see that there are like Napa wineries, Sonoma wineries, whatever, even, even, you know, imports that need to become familiar quickly with their what we call route to market. They're selling from the winery into a distributor that distributes ourselves into a restaurant or into a retailer and they're following how this is working. And once like let's say the bottle of wine comes in and it's, you know, $50 at the distributor level. Once it goes into a restaurant, we all know there's a pretty good mark up there. And then once it goes into retail, there's usually, you know, a more favorable mark up, but you don't have the experience of dining out and dining with for, you know, exact, nice class wear service, all of that. So understanding those two channels have become extremely critical to wineries for them to be successful. And once they get the data, they have to be ready to pivot. Because we've seen, I've seen we sell as a whole set of a we sell an incredible iconic set of California wines, the Napa icons for sure. And what we've seen is they've gone, yeah, they still want to go to restaurants, but when restaurants are arging a little bit more, taking price a little bit, they become much harder for people. There's only a limited number of people that can go out and buy, you know, a $2,000 bottle of wine on a wine list. Super limited. We're still in a value economy. No doubt about it. And whether that's the economy is strong. Yeah. Actually, but there is still a level of uncertainty. Even that's what people can't figure out. They're like, wait, the economy looks good, but everybody is still worried and complaining and things aren't, you know, everybody's still nervous. Yeah. So, where do you see going back to this idea of like restaurant on premise consumption? So, when we say on premise for those who are listening on premise means you're drinking the wine on the premises, you know, a restaurant or a wine bar or something equivalent with wine prices being what they are. And we just start up the economy a little bit. List are shrinking too. List are shrinking. They're shrinking. What is happening with on premise? Do you think that we are gearing up for restaurants to meet because also restaurants are struggling, right? With in terms of how they're making money, they're getting more expensive. Do you think that we are positioning ourselves or is the economy positioning itself to be in a place where we're going to see less of a markup on wines? Or do you think that's not even in the equation? It's too early to tell. We have seen, most recently this year, we have seen a couple restaurants open with the ideation that they want to be the most affordable or the most accessible. We have a really cool Italian restaurant in Logan Square in Chicago, which is kind of this hipster area that opened with cortinos. So everything on their list is served in cortinos. So those are quarter leaders. Okay. So a quarter of a leader. And it makes it really accessible. So like, let's just say the bottle was $40. You can get a cortino for 10. And so you get this access and you get people are drinking a little less and they're trying, they're trying to be really friendly and really accessible. I think they're ahead of the curve. I think that people are going to have to, if they want to stay relevant. The idea of buying a bottle of wine for $20 and charging a hundred is going to continue to be challenged because it just people just don't feel well or feel like that's, you know, favorable. Everything's on that phone. We can see it. We can see it. And everybody does. They go to Vivino and they interact. 100% to see. So I go, I worked the floor every once in a while with, you know, I've worked with the Alinea group. I've worked with, you know, whoever it is and it's to go out because I like it. Yeah. And I can't go out of the way. I can't go out of the way. I even find myself doing it when I go to places that I'm like, I really don't know any of these wines, but I'm just gonna start googling. And when I see that the market is egregious, I'm immediately like, yeah, it's tough. It is tough, but I do think you're right. I think restaurants and some of these are going to get more creative and how they're selling wine, meaning like, maybe it's not just going to be by the bottle, by the glass, there's gonna be these alternative ways to format it. 100%. So like, if you look at this psychology behind like a Costco buyer and a Costco seller, like Costco as a group, they don't get like La Croix in a 12 pack, because it's everywhere. They sell La Croix in a 15 pack, because you can't do the math. You're like, okay, I'm crew. - Right, your designs, your designs. - Exactly. So being able to offer this, like, I mean, and this is really inside, this is the inside baseball, right? So in your environment, what is the opportunity to adjust your route to market? How are you engaging with that final consumer? As a distributor, we're playing the same game. So you're the sommelier, you're my buyer. I'm coming out to talk to you. You're seeing packages and different ideas for me as a distributor that are completely, I'll give you a good example. So we're doing the math and saying, okay, by by bottles of Pintia, which is in the Vegas, Cecilia family, by five bottles of Pintia and get one free. We're just working the math a little bit different. You know, this culture is, we're a value economy. We're a discount culture. We want a free good. We want a, you know, different culture. Costco shopper. Exactly. I look for the dot 97. You got like a go for sure. So restaurants need to be, you know, in my opinion, they need to be more creative when they're going in and offering these kinds of things. Maybe icon California Cabernet's in three ounce pours where people can achieve a $30, $40 pour a wine. And then they get to try something that they wouldn't get to try otherwise. And they have Coraván and things like that that really help. Well, I was just gonna say, I mean, in the advent of wine preservation and where we've landed in the last 10 years, it's not unreasonable to do things like that now. I mean, it used to be 15, 20 years ago, but now, I mean, you've got so many different avenues to keep these rate wines fresh and safe. And to me, it just, it seems obvious that if, you know, if I were a wine buyer and a sommelier restaurant now, that is definitely where I'd be looking because I'm having a hard time going out on Tuesday night and buying a bottle of wine. It just doesn't work. And then I look at the buy the glass options and I'm uninspired. And I think a lot of people find that to be the case. And so I think that is where some of these wine cocktails and cocktails in general are starting to find a home. Would you agree with that? Absolutely. I don't see this much in the US. I travel quite a bit in Japan. There is a group called the SG Group, famous mixologist, Shingo Gokan. He has a restaurant that does only wine-based cocktails. Mm. That's it. That's cool. So it's wine-based cocktails in every way you could possibly imagine. Well, it's super awesome. And you were Patrick Capiello when he-- what was the restaurant that was all the same thing, right? Oh, really? I can't remember. Way back, I mean, the restaurant is closed, but it was the same. It only had a wine license. And so they were doing-- Wine-based-- Wine-based cocktails. So way ahead of us, no. I think people, when they go out, younger people today, that's what's kind of moving people into the on-premise in the restaurant into cocktails. So because they're looking for, hey, I can have this $14, $15 cocktail, or we can split a bottle of wine. And most of the time on wine lists, it's hard to find anything for under $30, $40, $50. So that's that value proposition. I want to shift gears a little bit into these Italian earrings. OK. I'm so curious. Like, why-- the only ones I really know are like, Compari, Di Serrano, as you mentioned, apparel. That's maybe it. Well, like the big ones. One little thing to say about our willingness in the wine business is just to close the loop. I have to say this. We have to think innovation beyond a screw cap. We'll just have to think that way. Everybody's like, oh, I'm so innovative. I get a screw cap. I'm like, OK, stop. Great. We have to think other packages. And I think that's what your point was. Let's get that wine industry to be a little bit more innovative as it comes to market. Well, an accepted-- Well, an accepted-- It's a meaner doing it. And the world is just like, aim-rich. We're so not sure if we don't know. Right. Have you ever used Gaza, olive oil? It's the sweetest bottle. You have a sweetest bottle. I love that. OK. That's putting an industry on its head. Right? Just they just showed up at Costco the other day. Totally. So it's putting-- so simple. Yeah. So I have about 100 ideas where the wine business could just be like, just get out of your mold and be innovative. And you're going to talk to a different audience. OK. Artisanal spirits of Italy. So this is going to project I've been working on for four years. I recruited and he's a great partner, a business partner, and a super sharp guy, David Lynch, who wrote Vino Italiano. He speaks the language. He's traveled all over Italy. He's just a really wonderful guy. And he believes in spirits as much as I do. And so the idea is for us to really connect with families that have these-- because it's part of their culture. They've been making these-- we have multi-generation families. We have a producer in Emilia, Romania, that's over 200 years old. And they've been making the same bitter. And they have this balsamic vermouth. They're in Emilia, Romania. They have balsamic. It's a recipe from 19.05. So they're using true Asataya balsamico with a lambrusco wine base for their vermouth. It is out of control. It is so delicious. But these small craft brands-- that brand's called Cassoni-- these will start to have a voice. Because people know they know vermouth. They know Martini and Rossi. They know these big brands. So coming right behind that is this sort of revolution. And I mean, look, it's not too creative. But the name of our company is the Italian spirit's company. And it's big. Yeah, they call it what it is. Let the producers be creative. Yeah, let the producers-- So help people walk through the door. And I bring it up because the conversations we're having with these small producers are the opportunity comes in giving people today the knowledge of how you're producing organic sustainability, your craft, right? And we'll tell the story as the reporter will tell the story. So if you go on our website, we're full of technical data, which really helps geeks, geeks, and we're full of really fun data as well. What is-- where did vermouth come from? Where did a pair of TV-- how did that all start? So we have this Italian spirit's primer. It's just pages of history and where this came from and why it's part of the culture. So we're extremely excited about it. And people think Tuscan Gen is a new thing. Tuscan Gen. Tuscan Gen. So Juniper is incredible in Tuscan. It grows wild. Native. It's native. Yeah, it's like the only other place that has as much Juniper of quality is Macedonia. But if you're in Tuscan, you can't really walk a hillside without finding-- Yeah, you smell it everywhere. Exactly. We have a producer called Jinniprile, which is over 10 years old. They've had their 10-year anniversary. They age their navy strength in Amphra. The family makes Amphra from a particular clay-- OK. --from Tuscan. So they're making this true sort of indigenous. They do their navy strength in Amphra. They have a gen called-- it's a Mediterranean gen, where the Juniper is only sourced from Mediterranean. All the botanicals and Juniper's sourced from the Mediterranean, like think of the Morema. Yeah. And then you have the Tyber River Valley, which is a different type of Juniper. So these people are really geeking out on the botanicals that are going their Jinn. Yeah. Genopriode Jinn is the best gen. It is so delicious. And those are the stories that need to be told. Yeah. It's so interesting, as you're talking. I'm like, these worlds are so connected between wine and spirits. And I just-- if we're talking about trends, it just feels to me that this is 1,000% this intersection that's about to happen in the biggest way. I was just at Charleston, Foonwine, and I was there featuring the Massacan Anya, which I'm sure Dan Patowski's wine you're familiar with. And before I went there, I was making a gen martini. I posted an Instagram and Dan messaged me. And they said, you know, you can sub out your remove for the Massacan Anya. And I was like, what do you mean? And he was like, sub it out. It's less sugar. It's lower alcohol. He was like, you're going to get viscosity. And you're going to get all of those floral aromatics that you would normally get from remove. And I was like, this is genius. And so at Charleston, Foonwine, we did a little demo of it. And people's minds were blown. And I think to me, it was so silly, but it was like that aha moment of these worlds can just live together. And I think as we're thinking about how people are starting to drink now, they will just continue to be getting more integrated. And so you bringing in spirits like this just really helps for that third wave to come on board. 100% you're at the tip of the iceberg. I see where it's going. So this last week I was a guest with Vinidali USA. And I gave a couple lectures. I had the opportunity to talk with the Minister of Agriculture. They brought some diplomatic people from Italy over to like shake hands and kiss babies. And when I had my opportunity to talk with the Minister of Agriculture, I said, listen, there was only two or three spirits producers, or maybe four at the whole of Vinidali. It was all wine. And I represent a couple of those spirits producers. We'll talk about one of them in a second. But I told him I said, listen, believe me, there is terroir in spirits. And so when you talk about like how these intersections, how this is going to come together, the interest in spirits and like you said, how you mix a cocktail and how you create complexity and flavor and so forth, How fun is it because no offense to why? because I love wine, but when you open it, you get what you get. Yeah. Right? Maybe you can decant it. Right, but it's, most wines are not going to change to an effect that will be noticeable. Through a bottle of gin, you can make 10 different cocktails and find your happy place. Yeah. How you use it. So, and I think today that's what people across any consumer product good. They won for satility. 100, absolutely. Yeah. No, I agree. And I think it's, you know, this conversation's been so helpful, even just for me, because I look at all of our worlds and I think for a long time, why I was like really trying to find its way with food and we've had some success, but not, you know, not in a way that I would like to see. And I think the wine in this spirit's world should be so much more married than they already are. Do you have it with you? This is shameless. I actually did. I actually brought it for you because that, but now that I know how excited you are, I was going to, after this podcast is over you and I are going to sit down and we're going to have a, I have a martini. But yeah, so the Mediterranean's done in like a blue bottle to invoke the, the, the, long, terranium sea. And then you have a regular clear glass bottle in the dry and then a different color label, like a black color label or the navy strings. But this is an incredible family. You can just see how they, how it's coming to market. The packaging is quite nice. It's, you know, it's own, own mold. It's beautiful. So that's ginaprio. One of the Italian spirits companies, Jins, you know, if given the opportunity, I'll come to you. I'll come to Philadelphia and I'll do a whole tasting for you. Yeah. Well, I love it. It's like counting a marino and marina, right? Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So these are going to, these are going to overlap in the wine world for sure. I mean, we're getting, we're bringing products in from Aburucho and Emilia Romagna and, and Trento and Piedmont, tons of stuff from Piedmont. So these are all languages that I think the sum of these are going to love. I love it. I think, you know, for as much as we've heard in the headlines about the Tumor and Lume of the Wine World, I think there's just so much excitement ahead. And I think the way that we're positioning right now is just opening up avenues. I think we're just, we're closing doors to open really, really big ones. I was, it's interesting. I was, I was drinking this wine and I was really nervous tasting it and I felt the acidity just like a brace down. It's so good. And I was like, can you, like, okay, so this is a $20 to $30 bottle of wine, fairly, you know, accessible, presky will makes, you know, really beautiful single vineyard peanuts and shards. They make really fun like carbonic gamis. And then they make these Santa Barbara appellated wines that are, like I said, affordable and accessible. And I was thinking back, you know, even 15, 20 years, it's so refreshing to see a wine made in this style. And that is high quality, but that's also something that we would love to enjoy it with food. Right. This is like, can you imagine 25 years ago drinking a $25 bottle of shardinay and it tasting like this? It didn't exist. It didn't exist. You're absolutely right. This wine has so much acidity. It's really delicious. And it's something that should be part of the pleasures of the table, in my opinion. Yeah. But it's fresh enough. I'm sorry about no food for us. No, no, no, no. That's on me. It's on me. Well, mine's almost gone. So apparently it's working. No, but it's fresh enough. It's, you know, it's got this liveness to it. This brightness and liftedness that it just, it's fine to drink, to drink on its own. Yeah. I do know a little bit about this winery. And this family, and they're extremely passionate. And they invest in making great wine. And that's what it takes. Yeah. And in my, in my opinion, this is right up the fairway. This is a, that's a, I don't play golf, but that's like, and people know that analogy. It's delicious. It's super well made. So if you go a little left, you get a little more, you know, natty, little, you know, there's this big natural wine movement. And if you go a little bit to the right, you're getting this more power, more oak, more, more alcohol, and there's that movement too. And we've seen both. And so like you said, to find something that's extremely well made, this wine's going to make a lot of friends. I'm sure, I don't know how long they've been making it, but you know, I mean, these guys do it right. They have this kind of old world sensibility. Yeah. I think they have a console. I think Jeremy says may have been a consultant at one point. He is or was. He is or was. He definitely was. I think he still is. Yeah. And they're also food obsessed. They're food obsessed. So there's old world sensibility, but this speaks Santa Barbara. Yeah. Right fruit. It's got a lot of texture. It smells to me a little bit like on the nose. It smells a little like Dejon clone, Chardonnay to me, Grownin Santa Barbara. Yeah. It has that little bit of that. Just a light tick of like this can corn character that I get right in the nose. Yeah. I love this wine. Yeah. And I'm really able to sit down and hang with this wine. I need to revisit these wines. I need to put a couple. I have some older, some older ventages in my cellar, but this is like yours I had to wear was. They're great. I went down maybe two years ago and visited them. Because I had, I was like less than that. I think it was a year ago. And I had the best time they were doing this like try tip cook off and. Yeah. Thurts. Everyone was there. Their whole, their every person their membership within a 50 mile radius was there. But the day before we had, we had done the full liner experience and you know, they told us ahead of time, like, K will do some snacks for you. It's a medsay board. And I was like, all right. I mean, we've all been to those wineries, right? Right. Right. Right. It's some olives and chagotery called a day. This medsay board was outrageous. It was the most beautiful, delicious, well crafted medsay board of the most wine friendly snacks that I've ever had. And it was all pulled from this garden that they their chef insisted on planting. I believe she's French. She got there and she was like, we're in California. There's absolutely no reason I should be grocery shopping. It should all be right here. And so basically everything that was on that board was grown on property and it was geared to go with the wine and the wine is geared to go with the food. And to me, this is a winery that speaks to the future of the wine industry and how they're making wine, they're approached making the why they're making wine. I think there is not enough of why are we doing this and for whom are we doing this? I've had the same experience. They are a winery that is investing in that experience, that cultural experience. And they have a chef, right? So maybe not every winery has a chef, but they have a chef with purpose. Are you saying so they're looking at it and they're doing the best that they can to put food with their wine? And I think they're from New Orleans or something. So you don't find, if you find it, most people in New Orleans love food, right? It's a food culture. It's a food family drink. Drinking culture. Absolutely, it's a great culture. No, I loved it. I'm so happy that we got to include them. And I know this format of the show has been a little bit different for those views and listening, but this is the wine from the podcast wine clumpship. It's the last one of the series. So for those of you who are drinking this at home, I hope that you grab a snack with this at the very least, like go run and grab some hummus from your grocery store and some Peter or some vegetables or whatever you got. I mean, it's the fall. So like, honestly, anything kind of goes, but delighted to be drinking this. We are about to head into a very fun weekend. We are. This is like just getting started. I went to the water park yesterday and it's like some of the surfing in the water side. This is the best place to enjoy wine and food. And I love that they're doing this at this gorgeous resort. I love that they're doing this in the Caribbean. It's bringing chess from all over. It's bringing wine people from all over. What do you think I have to look forward to this weekend? Well, this is an incredible weekend. So you have Daniel Beliu, Marcus Samuelson, Carla Hall, Scott Conan. You have this just like long list of celebrity chefs that are down here. The king of Tuscany, Dario Kachin. Dario Kachin. Is here. The best hamburger I've ever had is roadside right outside of Panzano. We have this little has this little roadside cart that he puts right. I know that. I won't even say the butcher thing. Yeah, it's incredible. So he's just a wonderful human. He's so fun to hang out with. The Dario Kachin. He's here. A lot of wine. Tonight. Rod Stewart. Now, I don't know if you know Rod Stewart. So I wasn't sure how much Rod Stewart I knew. So to this morning in the gym on the treadmill, I said, I'm going to do Rod Stewart essentials and I was like, oh my god, I know that song. Oh my god, I know that song. So he's had a lot of hits. He's had a lot of hits. He's a sexy dude. You know what I mean? He lived a pretty interesting life. And so tonight we'll see him outside. It's just going to be hit a great weekend. Baha Mar is one of the best places to get away. I think it's easy to nassau. It's an easy trip. Super fun. This has been a very surprising trip for me because I didn't win people with slain Baha Mar either. They're like, oh, it's three resorts in one. It's a nassau. I'm like, oh, that sounds cool. I mean, gotten a restart walking here and I'm like, this is Vegas in the Caribbean. It's the best Vegas resort in the Caribbean. You look out. The ocean is beautiful. It's crystal clear and blue. And then you got all of the amenities at your fingertips and the best chefs. So yeah, I'm really looking forward to it. I get to host dinner with Dario Coutini tomorrow night with some wine and then host a brunch with Cartel Hall in a Mandafrey take. And you got some seminars tomorrow. I got a couple seminars. I'm doing one seminar called Who ordered it best? Where the guests are going to get to choose like the price point of the wine. And there's some little tricky wine. It's blind. And then I have a seminar called Extreme Vineyards where we're going to cover off on some of the craziest places to grow and produce wine around the world. So yeah, I'm excited about it. You know, it's a wonderful audience. I mean, people that are here are kind of like, you know, loosen the tie a bit. I hope so. They're ready to have a good time. They're ready to drink a glass of wine or have a cocktail. And so that makes it a pretty easy environment. I mean, if I can go down a water slide, which I haven't done in easily two decades, like I think everyone should be encouraged to loosen their tie and have a great time. Let's do it. All right. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. A great way to get a little inside scoop on what's going on the Y World. You guys, if you love this, please like, subscribe, do all the things. And if you are not a member of the Wine Access Unfiltered Podcast Wine Club, you can find everything you need to subscribe below. I will see you guys for the next episode with a brand new set of wines in just a few weeks. Cheers.