The Fixer’s Trap (S2 Ep1)

Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode on Beyond Survival. Welcome to series two, which I am honestly delighted about to go back to something I love, which is being able to hear what you are struggling with and to be able to answer questions. And with that for series two, I'm delighted to be able to share with you a guest that's going to be with me for the whole of the series so that we are able to delve into your lectures, your questions and be able to answer them and most importantly give another perspective as well. So with that, I'm going to introduce you to Dr. Ruth Callahan, Ruth. Say hello to our listeners. Hi everyone, great to be here. Thanks for being with us. So Ruth is from my neck in the woods and I have known her for years. She's a chartered behavioral psychologist. She's a psychotherapist and clinical supervisor. Ruth, I think, are you, you're doing this? Is that like 20 years, over 20 years? Yeah, 21 years. I was 11 years with the Irish Sheets Justice Service and then I've been 10 years out on my own in cry for practice. Wow. Yeah, that's it. That's a hell of a hell of an experience to build up. And I think I'm just going to give people a bit of information about you because I will put your links in the show notes so where people can find like your website, you on TikTok and Instagram on Facebook as well. So you have a degree in psychology and masters in addiction studies, a diploma in counseling and psychotherapy, a doctorate in psychological science, behavioral analytical therapy and applied behavior analysis, and then a professional diploma in clinical supervision. Can you go back then just a wee bit there about the doctorate and explain a little bit to people about what that is? Yeah, so the doctorate, it was a taught doctorate in my new university. What I was about primarily was applied behavioral analysis, which is its psychology guaranteed spare nuts and bolts really, I suppose, in terms of studying behavior. It's applied a lot to ASD and neurodivergent individuals in terms of pedagogy rather than therapy a lot of the times, what has now been developed into sort of textual behavioral science, which is beginning to lean more into the psychotherapy rather than pedagogy being teaching, you know, teaching people how to speak and how to acquire language when you're non-verbal and that sort of thing. But now it's being applied more and more to mental health. My own research will have been on applying it to alcoholism, for example. So it has such a wide scope and such wide reach and just love us. For me, it's about blending it with sort of the integrative psychotherapy that I know and love and the two combined can be really powerful. Yeah, it's fascinating and then because you are a supervisor. So for what people that don't know what that is, for psychotherapists that have their own clients, they go to you then. You are the therapist then for the client. They are going to you and they're going with their case load and you are helping them with their workload also. Sure, for the therapists themselves rather than their clients. Yeah, they bring their clients work to me. We have a look through it. I suppose I like the idea of having a super vision over what the therapist is working on so that if there's any blindsides or stuff that's potentially getting missed in that kind of way, we can kind of check it out and work together to make sure that everyone's getting the best possible outcomes. I love that when I go to my supervisor, it is that like the thing that I'm asking for is what you're calling this super vision. It's like an overview that they get to see and hear something being removed from us and actually what are they noticing and it's really helpful and actually when I put that in terms of then our own lives, there are clients lives, when you are so deep into something, it's very hard to be able to see it and so then to have somebody be able to give an overview is really helpful and I mean in Ireland with the accreditation bodies, its mandatory were required to have super vision like monthly supervision and it's really important and it's required it's necessary and I think that any therapist that is really doing the work and is really involved and is being ethical, you know, that they're going to see their own supervisor. Absolutely crucial. You as well, you mentioned neurodivergence, that's one of your specialities as well isn't it? Sure. So neurodivergence, addictions, couple in relation therapy, child and adolescent psychotherapy and as you had mentioned before, the contextual behavioral science. Absolutely, yeah, but we see a lot with folks on the spectrum and with ADHD and neurodivergence folks is the level of anxiety that comes along with managing, you know, on the daily needs to be addressed for them as well, you know, and maybe different approaches suit different people differently and better ways and the adaptability is key then. Yeah, that was why I wanted to have somebody else own because there is so many different modalities and you are trained in different modalities and have different experience than me and I had actually mentioned it at the end of one of the episodes. I was saying when one person is on talking and is saying that this is the only way, my way is the only way, I was like, that is akin to a cult, like that is the narcissistic family system when they're saying, like, listen to me and don't diverge off it. Whereas there is a plethora of modalities, there is so many different ways and in saying that, but also that that is being monitored and the people are being ethical like that, being registered with a body that they are qualified and that they are, you know, behaving ethically then within the environment because when people are coming to somebody, when they are so vulnerable, serious harm can be done. So that was why I wanted to read out your credentials and so that people know that, and also I know you, I have known you years, I have huge respect for both you personally, but also in your work. So really appreciate that, thanks Katie. So I think with that, I think we're just going to jump straight into a letter then if that's okay with you. Super, absolutely. Just to say Katie, thanks so much for having me on and, you know, I really love the name of your podcast, you know, because I think having followed your own work for the last couple of years, it seems to me or it strikes me that your audience more than anyone really need and deserve to move beyond survival into thriving again. I agree with you and I really appreciate that. And I think even for the listeners, there to know that you know the listener group and you, you know this area is huge. Okay, so I'm just going to jump straight into a letter. Hi Katie, I just found your new podcast and I love it already, the title drew me in and it is so validating to hear you speak about this. I recently properly got and understood I was in a phone trauma response and I'm grieving an awful lot. I would love to learn more about the phone response, how it manifests, how to heal and grow, things to watch out for, such as being taken advantage of, taking your own responsibility, how to be a better parent as a phone people place are. Why are the motivations behind it important? Compulsive thoughts and need to fix and help, understanding why it can be selfish while also having compassion for yourself. I was also heavily identified and endured a great deal of emotional and physical abuse for my father, unfortunately, and have an enmeshed mother. I would love to know the difference between phone, CPTSD and had this can lead to codependency and phone, CPTSD and had this can lead to narcissism. Thank you for writing in. There is so many really, really good questions in that and I think to do it justice. I'm going to pick a question out of that to answer and Ruth, we've already talked about this. I'm going to throw that back to you then and if you pick a question then where you can come in and you know we can explore that as well. Is that all right? Super. That sounds great. Okay, well the one that I am going to take out of this is how to be a better parent as a phone people place are. Why are the motivations behind it important? Because I think this is going to encompass some of the other questions as well when we're talking about the phone or and why we phone, but really to look at it in terms of what is the impact of this with our children? Because I think this is where we can really you know set up a cycle that we don't want. When we say I absolutely don't want to grow up in the environment that I was in where I wasn't seen and I wasn't heard and now I'm going to do the complete opposite and I I don't even know I don't even think that it's that intentional because the phone the phone or will abandon themselves they will merge with the other person the other person's needs once preferences and they won't hold themselves they won't have their edges. But when I think then of a parent doing this with a child right so I'm thinking even physically the height of a parent I have an image of the height of the parent in my mind and the size of a child and I'm thinking if they're merged with the child how much power they're given the child and that's what it is when you're not going to say no to a child the child then has all this power and they like we hear those ains the rule the roost it's the tail wag in the dog and then really when we merge with the child the question is well then where is the parent? Exactly and there's something about boundaries I see a lot of the child and adolescent work that I do sometimes I have a wee one come in and they have so much control and they're not equipped yet to handle that it can be a disservice to the child to give too much control to them you know a happy child is one that is boundary to yeah yeah I just talk about that I think if it in terms of unconditional love with and for the child but it's structured yeah it's boundary that's held and it's developmentally appropriate at every and any stage for the child to push against these boundaries and to be in a power battle the child is gonna want to take the power but what they actually need is the safety to know that no okay I'm actually held in this I'm supported in this exactly yeah it's an awful lot of responsibility for we want to take on right yeah when we haven't developed if we don't have our capabilities to emotionally regulate or anything in in place yet to have that much control on power is it's it's it's distressing yeah it is let's take this back a step then and it was in one of the other questions with this briefly to talk about where it develops because the foreigner is the child that is scared to upset the parent right so this listener here has two parents one where the father the threat of the father being physically you know emotionally abusive and then the mother when we're talking about enmeshment so this is that the mother is not able to stand up to the father is not able to say no and the child is feeling responsible then for the mother but within measurement then and it doesn't give any details into it what I imagine then is that the mother's emotional needs become more important right so this is all about keeping the mother safe keeping the mother happy and then you know abandoning herself not even abandoning herself because it's not a conscious choice this is what happens when a parent isn't being a parent here yeah absolutely so we see that then from the child's perspective growing up how the foreigner has developed but this is actually then the same the parallels of that then between her with her parents the parallels of that now with her and her child because this is what this is what I see and then I think rhythm going to throw back to you and see what you see in your practice what I see then is that the parents are scared to upset their child they're scared for their child to have any sort of big emotion right so whether that's disappointment anger frustration annoyance grievance and want to prevent that happening at all costs because in their own childhood this was really dangerous this was unsafe yeah and so now the parallels is that this is happening here that they feel unsafe when the child is having a huge emotion so it is going no no no I don't want that to happen I want to please and appease you I want to make sure that you're okay and I think there's a real fear that if their child is upset I think anybody growing up in an emotionally abusive and a narcissistic dysfunctional family there's this fear I hear it all the time when anyone that's a parent that comes into me and have any sort of kind of normal rupture in in the relationship where their child is best off with them or where they've made a mistake and they have a huge fear that they're going to traumatize them sure like because they have grown up in trauma this real fear that I'm going to traumatize them and and damage them for life what I do see is when I get the 15 you know 17 18 year olds in and they haven't experienced any ill-ease or distress at all in their lives because the parents have kind of peered the way the whole time and then suddenly a state of sound comes up and now mom and dad can't make this stressor go away and they're ill equipped then to cope with life stress whereas you know unfortunately the parent of my child the child who's caught up in the the phone trauma response I mean it's quite the opposite right we're juggling all of these stressors but we're building our resilience at the same time I'm not saying the cuts but the ideal by any means but there the needs to be some balance in terms of you know children need to experience and build a tolerance for distress as they're growing to do I break this down into really kind of small manageable natural disappointments in life right because it's not that we're going to go back over where and be like okay I'm going to teach you a lesson to disappoint and I see you can manage that sure but in very simple ways like if the child doesn't get invited to the birth of party or I have four kids if one of my kids is being asked to go somewhere and the other isn't and naturally they're disappointed because they want to go but this is a really good learning opportunity and I don't use this language with them going oh this is a really good learning opportunity but it is going look you can't be invited to everything this so begins gets this chance I even think of you know like the cone and that idea of the ice rainfall and off the cone and this is a disappointment but you're right if they have never experienced or had to sit with disappointment you can other example like young people really struggle to tell right boredom nowadays yes oh that's a that's a really good example and it's in no way harming your child not to entertain them 24/7 and yet we feel this compulsion to fill the for the summer holidays with activities and go here there and everywhere and we have to have some sort of an activity on for our children every single day otherwise we're not good enough in some kind of a way we're not doing it right that's that constant constant striving and actually the listener had asked that you know by compulsive thoughts and maybe we might actually you know intertwine all that's because wasn't that the avenue that you weren't going to go down yeah yeah because when we're talking about that compulsion then to do something even one and I'll throw back to you then to talk a little bit a bit those compulsive thoughts because this is your area but there for people to actually have that permission to hear from somebody and be like oh wait a minute it's not harming them if they're bored yeah there is nothing wrong with being bored this is where imagination comes out of so when my kids and they say it over the summer repeatedly I'm bored I'm bored and my answer is that's okay yeah I don't try to change it I don't try to fix it now and if they ask they're like what can I do and I'm like do you want to hear ideas because a lot of the times they don't right because my ideas again are going to be boring them they're looking for something exciting I even ask them like what would you like to do right it's not that I'm going to fix it but you're right that being able to tolerate your kids discomfort and this is what wasn't allowed in your own childhood right because it was unsafe if your parent was uncomfortable or in distress this impacted your survival need it wasn't safe and you needed your parent to be okay for you to be okay yeah but this is happening in a very different way but similar like the parallels are so similar than with your child because if you can't show your child that I actually can tolerate and manage your discomfort and it's okay you're not talking about gaslight and I think the thing is is that people fear that this language sends so similar to gaslight and oh you'll be going quick your engine get over it that's the extreme that's not what I'm talking about it is answering them with compassion and understanding like I get it they are bored I'm not denying it but I'm not saying they're a bad person for being bored and I'm not taking the full responsibility saying that I have to fix this fear right now exactly and that's the key I think you know just do nothing take no action there need be no action but there's something about I hear that and that sounds rough for you maybe you could you know try something different yeah or would it be like fear to do something you've never done before what would that look like you know so you're acknowledging and respecting the fact that it sucks to be bored right yeah but we don't have to fix it rescue even when you said there you don't have to do anything you can do nothing like to the adult or the parent and the situation I straightaway even felt my legs like I could feel the tension and the fear in that because for the child when she was a child like it's not safe to do nothing yeah yeah I have to do something and this is where the phone responses is born I have to go towards this is the physical right the nervous system response when I am in fear fear if I fly phone like what am I gonna do and the phone is I have to go towards and I think this is gonna overlap then with the compulsive thoughts then that I need to fix as well so I'm gonna throw it back over to you absolutely I was really struck with the mention of compulsive thoughts because if I was to the do a straw poll on the client's I work with I would say over 90% of them have some sort of difficulty managing toxic difficult thoughts compulsive thoughts etc so and it causes so much distress let's even break this down right explain to people what is a compulsive thought and what is maybe the difference between a compulsive thought and an intrusive thought well easy I kind of feel like they're related yeah we don't necessarily ask for the thoughts that we have unless I'm sitting at the kitchen table trying to figure out my sharpness how by melting the fridge and I'm calling to to mine thoughts and in that instance for example but other than that a lot of the time we don't ask for the thoughts that we get to just land in our heads we don't call them in any kind of a way so for me an intrusive thought is usually my mind trying to shock me it's like it's like you know in a scary movie where this kind of a jump scare yes my mind is trying to give me a jump scare so a lot of the times when folks come to me with impulsive thoughts they're absolutely horrified oh my god I've had this horrendous yeah distressing thought therefore I must be a horrendous distressing person and it's not the case at all quite the opposite our mind sense is the most distressing and ill at ease with who we are as a human being thought possible to give a stack of fries or jump scare I don't work with teenagers anymore but when I used to work with teenagers this used to be a huge issue that when they would have an intrusive thought because they feared that they would one that they were bad and wrong for having it but that they would act on it so kind of examples of an intrusive thought if you're cutting carrots let's say and that it taught going I could chop my finger off right now if you're sitting in the car going I could turn the steering wheel or I could open the car door and jump out right now but they would have the fear that they would have this thought and yet the beauty of thought is that their private event it occurs in my head and unless I choose to share it with someone else it's entirely meaningless doesn't matter, poets only have the energy that we give them the meaning we give them the energy that we give them and if we choose not to give them bad energy it's really empowering for us we don't have to be ruled by them as you're describing that the way I describe poets when you're saying that they just come in they just land on us I describe them as trains right so there's trains that are constantly passing but it's up to you whether you get on the train or not and a lot of the times with this work it's acknowledging and a lot of people might even realize it when they start it until they're looping and they're in that anxiety loop but I'm like okay what's the next station that you can get off on yeah I'm doing it again I can get off yes so when it comes to the difference between a compulsive thought and a truce of thought where the intrusive thought is just you know as I say lands in on us and is there a jump scare it's to frighten us it's to jolt us in some kind of way compulsive thought is more about I must take action on so it compels us to do something in particular we can have obsessive compulsive thoughts as well which are you know even more toxic in many ways and usually that involves a behavior for example tapping or touching something x amount of times all of that sort of stuff obsessive compulsive but similar to compulsive thoughts because essentially it's our attempt to manage our anxiety about that which can't be controlled that's outside of our control by doing something that feels within our control that fear of uncertainty again when I think back to like this listener and our client group when they grow up in households that walk on an egghells it's waiting for the other suitable it's waiting for that minefield waiting for the next thing to blow and that uncertainty is again the nervous system it's just it's living in fear and as a child you have very very limited control over your environment yeah right so look how powerful that is if I can keep mommy happy if I can keep mommy safe even in the father if I can avoid if I can stay out of his way if I can be nice to him because when somebody is that extreme and volatile and physical abuse I won't say anything to upset him I won't say anything to disrupt him to piss him off to make him annoyed all right and that's not even going to work right because when somebody's volatile and abusive they're going to find ways to abuse you but the child is going to try to minimize that in any way they can this is their survival and as I'm thinking of both those two parents and now here the fear actually with her own child that if I'm going to upset the child if I'm going to do anything or if they're unhappy you have all of these memories all of these thoughts they urge the physical urge because the nervous system is activated then to go towards and fix and try to avoid the meltdown but as you were saying you're doing the child to serve us because you're not actually meeting the child's needs you're meeting your own and that's really distressing yeah I think this is where the listener if I just pull back up that letter again because she had said understanding why it can be selfish while also having compassion for yourself the way I read that was that I don't like the negative connotations with selfish church menthol yeah and I know that there's a huge kind of school of thought to reframe that as selfish that actually selfish is not a bad thing in that you're looking for the self but I think when a word has been occupied by a parent I think there's so much work to try and overcome that and redirect it and reframe it that the word selfish has just such negative connotations I don't believe the word is inherently bad but it is such negative connotations when we're talking about here it is being able to decipher or separate that actually you're meeting your own needs and that's doing your child to serve us that is not saying that you are a bad person that you are a selfish mean wrong person because here you are writing in asking for help going I want to understand this more so that I can show up for my child in the way that they need me to I mean this is meeting your child's needs you are doing us and how glorious to role model for my children yeah mommy takes time for herself therefore I get from a sheet to take time for myself and care for myself oh my god that for people here and that going oh wait a minute this is actually in my child's interest that if I model that this is okay this is where no matter what you say as a parent to your child it will never be as powerful as your behavior so most parents if it's due as I say and not as I do there's a rule for one and a rule for another but actually here we can model this for our children oh no I'm telling you that it's important to take rest or have some play and go with your friends and have rest but I'm just going to be an energizer bunny go go go go go and I'm not important that's actually what you're modeling to them and that's what you're modeling to them in a relationship you know for boys and girls when they go in their partnership oh this is actually the role of what the woman does it's setting them up for unrealistic expectations so to go back to what you said there with the what what did you say there what way did you put it just to model this to your children absolutely in doing so we give them permission to take time for themselves and to learn self-care and you know folks will often say to me oh you know am I a good enough mother and I say no I hope not because you need to be flawed human beings are flawed inherently and if I show my children that I'm flawed human being that I take accountability for my issues as and when they come up it gives them permission to be flawed human beings too so the pressure is taken down from them to be perfect yeah that's the unattainable perfectionism because I look at that good enough is good enough because in the way I look at it is good enough is flawed good enough you will make mistakes when we think of modeling I remember all this was a year ago one of the kids was talking to Frank and you know he was apologizing as I have to do a numerous times even a day and they had said to him because he was like yeah you know whatever I'm sorry but blah blah blah and they said that's not an apology that right and you know to me and I was not and he was like what if you had just right whatever it was if you had just not or if you had don't I don't know what it was and he was like no that's not apology and I was laughed and I was like yeah no you have to you have to own your shirt I'm like you were the adult yeah and I have to do it and here I'm not throwing Frank onto the bus here because they've called me out on this before as well and I am like look at that you make a mistake and you get to model what a healthy apology is and that they get to know this and understand this and they also get to know that in a relationship that I get to call this out and somebody's going to take accountability so when they're nervous system this is all safe when you were on a bet rate that we do the child at a service when we don't say no to them I think as well of the disservice we would do now it's unattainable right so this is not real to be the perfect parent but I say it to the parent right let's say it's a mother with her son for example and I say okay let's say that you are the perfect parent you do absolutely nothing wrong you do everything right I'm like no what sort of expectation does he have going in the world yeah that everybody's perfect or who loves yeah it's going to be perfect that's not true I think the example you had given like disappointment with somebody or being bored like that they have to learn to manage that you were talking a bit kind of resilience right that if they don't go through any difficult things and again we're not going to purposely manufacture difficult things but it's going to happen in life but even here in a relationship that they get to see that their parent is a flawed human being but that it's not malicious we're not talking about abuse here it's not malicious it's not harmful and that the parent can act from that space and I do I remember in in the mornings getting them out and when I would be get in the car get your shoes like you know with those last few minutes and I would be in the car and I would be like I'm I'm sorry because no matter that they weren't ready in time or that they'd move their shoes or whatever it happened that was on me you know I lost my cool I am the adult in that and I'm sorry and I'll do better and genuinely meant that and genuinely put steps in to kind of mitigate or alleviate that may have imagine if your parent had been able to say I'm sorry I didn't mean that that came out wrong my bad whatever version of that it might have been how would the parent flight child the child in the farm trauma response how would you have responded to that how would that have been experienced by you yeah I imagine that would have been a really powerful moment yeah so allowing that for your child modeling that for your child modeling accountability it's it's magic it's so powerful when it's been done to meet the needs there's so many apologies from the narcissistic parents that are done manipulatively and oh well I'm sorry then even your tone in that is vicious it's accusatory yeah so compulsive thoughts we strayed a little from that sorry about that we will that's okay stop me if it doesn't feel okay because I know that you have a slightly different way of framing your thoughts and your and conceptualizing thoughts but I wanted to kind of introduce how I happen to kind of I suppose respond to my thoughts so when it comes to behaviorism you might say well what does behavior got to do with thoughts right but they're kind of interlinked if you imagine the three indices of a triangle where thoughts emotions behavior they're all connected and I can bore you to death with research on that but I'll pass I'll let you off this time right but we know that if we change our behavior then our thoughts and our emotions also shift you know in line with our behavior so the beautiful thing about that is when we look at thoughts I mean if I was to tell you whatever you do don't think of big quite elephant you have to think of big well elephant to not think of the big well elephant I just asked you not to peek about it you can tie yourself in knots right so targeting the thoughts it can be problematic for that reason if we were to target the emotions hey just feel that well I mean it's not very tangible how do I go about that what does that look like very gaslighty isn't it it's it's a little too vague yeah right but when it comes to behavior it's very tangible whether I choose to pick up a pen and set it down again or not the reason I love targeting behavior is that it helps with our thoughts and our emotions but in a very tangible way we can see it we can observe it we can do it so how does that relate to our thoughts we can't stop the thoughts from coming as we mentioned already boom it's in your head and that's it deal with it kind of so that's really challenging but what we can do is alter how we respond to our thoughts and that's the behavior how I think and conceptualize that is when I think of autonomy and choice and freedom and again the nervous system like the fear is that I actually don't get to choose my behavior there's only one way yeah because I have to survive and I have to please and appease I have to stay small I have to stay silent I can't stand in my own power or autonomy and have choice this is like developing the critical mind being able to think of other options whereas when we're in fight or flight we're not in that rational part of the brain that's able to decipher this so for somebody now that's able to listen for this listener that's able to listen because obviously they're not going to be an immediate crisis if they're sitting listening to a podcast even if they're busy doing something if they're driving you're in a different space to be able to take this in and then to be able to think and plan of the behavior okay what I'm going to do okay so can you put this then in terms of this listener and I know that she didn't give us examples of compulsive thoughts that she has but even from you reading it and knowing where this comes from yeah I mean I think she mentioned that they were in relation to fixing and helping which is really helpful but I mean if you imagine that who I am fundamentally as a human being is that part of me that views and reviews and observes the thoughts that my mind sent me that sounds a little bit radical it's a little bit out there and a bit abstract I know but bear with me imagine what she did last Christmas this morning you might notice your mind play a little movie for you about oh we did this we did that we did that whatever else but that part of you that's watching that movie for me is who you truly are right so when your mind sends your thoughts and memory and image whatever form it takes who you are fundamentally as a human being guest picking shoes what I sit with and what I let pass by just really really difficult in practice especially with compulsive thoughts I'm really glad to say that oh my goodness this is a skill to be trained it's like going to the gym if I was to walk into a gym right now and try and pick up a way to probably hospitalize myself but if I was to build up over time perhaps I get there so if there's something about you're not going to just have this down pat tomorrow but what I would say is see if you can catch the odd thought pause with it and ask yourself how you're relating to that thought do you really have to sit with that thought say I have the thought I need to fix this I need to help this I need to to make this better because it is a behavior it's the body compulsion isn't it back even to like I have to go towards like people say I can't help myself and need your reaction it's almost automatic so how do we catch it before we act yeah how do we just create that space I am not my thought I am having or experiencing the thought and even that creates a little bit of space so just to use an example that comes up a lot in the clinical room with me this thought and it's a nasty horrible toxic thought but it's really common I'm not good enough there's a real visceral kind of a gut punch that comes with it so if I have the thought I'm not good enough and I just fuse with that and I decide that's a FACT fact about me from now on that could have a massive impact on my life because now maybe I don't pop myself up for that promotion Christian I'll never get it anyway but you know I'll not ask your man out because he's an 8 out of 10 and I'm on the 6 and all this nonsense that we I mean I call it nonsense I don't mean that to be dismissive but essentially there's no factual basis to any of these judgments that we're making of ourselves but it can have a really big impact on our lives so instead what I'm encouraging folks to do is to start to consider I'm noticing I'm having this thought just to create that wee bit of space between who I am fundamentally as a human being and this thought that I'm experiencing so what does that do it gives me pause for talk before I assume that this thought is a truism that I think it allows me to kind of question is that accurate is that a hundred percent the case for me can I reality test that some kind of way I hear what you're saying about the thoughts and people being able to pause that so that thought even I need to fix and even recognizing that the nervous system responds to fear right because a lot of this is to untrain the conditioning that it is safe not to act it is safe not to do it is safe to have this pause because again in childhood it wasn't safe it's in the pushing back against if I always do what I always did I'll always get what I always got doing something different what was once way out of my comfort zone now becomes part of my comfort zone again when you're talking about the thought that I'm not good enough a lot of people are driven that this is just an inherent belief like this isn't a thought anymore I'm not thinking that like this is just an inherent belief and it actually drives my every action and drives my every thought I think if we have these especially these really gottonshi visceral nasty judgmental thoughts about ourselves frequently enough they become beliefs about ourselves we buy into it that doesn't mean that they're accurate when you're being conditioned and told this in explicit and implicit ways and then in terms even you know what we received from the media that you know in terms of body and image and even what parenting is that everything has to be perfect and that you have to do better and do more and I think what we're saying here is do less and do it intentionally be aware of the condition and because it is it's when I think of the narcissistic family system it is a it's a brainwashing and so this takes work and this takes habits it the reason again why I think these conversations is so important because when you hear somebody else talk with a kind of a different language and different training I think all models are all similar and they're all going to it I've talked about this like the last two solo episodes I was doing the inner critic and I was also doing then how to meet our own needs and with that the inner critic it is all thoughts and beliefs right but where are these but where can we challenge them these are the bits where we're talking about like beyond survival and there's always like where can we challenge them and even with our needs it's like how can I meet my need what behavior do I need to do now like what you're saying if I keep doing the same thing I'll always get the same result so here with this listener with her child what it would be like for you when your child comes up and you're doing something in the moment to say I'm just going to pause you there I'm doing this and I'll be with you in five minutes or be with you in ten minutes that you the child cannot get your need met one hundred percent of the time yet it is okay for you to wait for a child growing up in this environment that can feel really rude aggressive neglectful traumatizing and it's like it's not because you have a tune to the child you're saying I see you I hear you I know you want me to go with you to look at something or I know you want me to do that but I'm in the middle of doing something right now but I will do it and here a visual timer can be helpful you know like I'll be with you in fifteen or twenty minutes and then that you go towards them so they can get that trust because if you don't change the behavior what you're setting your child up is it's entitled it's that they one are not able to what we talked on earlier being able to tolerate that frustration that boredom but here if you don't do what I want when I want it right now I can't tolerate that I'm going to keep nagging and so now imagine them you're talking about in a state exam but now imagine them in a work scenario now imagine them in a relationship won't be tolerated by wider society it won't yeah my partner nor my friends will when I say I want you to do something is better do it right now like it's such a rude awakening then you're not setting them up for the world and to be independent in that which is very different from the narcissistic parent which is I'm just going to treat you the way the world's straightening it no we are loving and compassionate and that unconditional positive of a guard but we are holding those boundaries and we are holding those structures and the way your approach in this is actually for this is to empower somebody that you actually have choice in this you can look at your behavior and you can change your behavior and do something tangibly different and I love the idea of the tangible difference I love the idea of us becoming social experimenters in our own lives I'm a bit of a classic geek here I challenge myself you know when I catch myself avoiding something or feeling compelled to do something I challenge myself to act differently given example to just the avoidance I'm just going to take steps to do the thing I'll get you an example right here right now it's very life for me right now as you know Katie I have I'm really never put myself out there before never public spoke before I have a pathological near avoid and solve it and because my anxiety levels go through the roof people will notice on my socials I brand you because I don't put myself out there the risk is too high for various different reasons so here today even though my stress levels are true right now I'm putting myself out of my comfort zone because I know that that's where the world is going to be so to give a very life example me engaging in this process with you right now is me trying to challenge myself out of my comfort zone I think it's hugely important I say to a lot of my clients I never offer anyone anything that I don't do myself right so I practice this in my day-to-day life all the time if I catch myself trying to avoid doing something then guess what you better do it now right I've got to push myself in that direction because that's where the growth is or if I catch myself being compelled to do something like this lady for example feeling compels to act fixed what I would be saying is sit with the inaction see what that feels like notice what you experience where do you feel it can you put an emotional word or multiple words maybe on what it is that comes up for you what kind of rating would you give it in terms of intensity out of 10 you know and sitting with the uneasiness of being outside of my comfort zone actually allows the comfort zone to stretch to accommodate us I mean even today going back to my own example I'm noticing that I feel so much more comfortable now talking than I did perhaps when we started this process so I really wanted to thank you for giving me the opportunity to work on my own healing today and thanks to the listener for being complicit in giving me this opportunity to even engage in this process because it's been part of my healing and recovery there's something just so human about what you said and shared this idea that when any sort of professionals come on and talk there can be this pediceling that oh you know will you if you're set together and you know where is there this idea of growth I fully agree with you 100% and I mean to the point that I'm like I'm fucking sick or growing it's like yeah it's like it never ends it doesn't and this is also the point for people it it doesn't it's a lifelong process for anybody even that grows up in a healthy enough family so for this listener for her child they will always be developing who they are that will be ever changing from obviously who they are from a kid to a teenager and it will change multiple times and in their 20s and they will learn and evolve and 30s 40s you know 50s 60s like we change and develop but what happens here what somebody that grows up with abuse they have to unlearn the conditioning that they've been told anybody that grows up in high organized religion has to unlearn and deconstruct what they've been told so this is what we're talking about the beliefs you know those inherent beliefs that I'm not good enough and as well this listener more than likely will have that inherent belief that it's not safe to act that will be yes not just it is a thought but it's also it's a thought that becomes a belief because it has happened so many times that kind of that in an action is dangerous that I have to go and do something and I think especially it'd be more interested even more towards the mother actually because it is this comfort that I have to provide and that I have to keep safe this is the unlearning like taking that pause and that it is safe in an inaction because what I can imagine the listener going is that okay but then what do I like what do I need to do what do I need to do whereas the learning or the growth is actually being safe in the inaction exactly and in the inaction you will be able to go back into your nervous system regulate your nervous system take that breath and then be able to make a decision from the adult part of your brain from the rational part love the idea of unlearning and there's a learning in the unlearning just to make it more complex yeah because when I don't take action and the world doesn't stop turning yeah I have this whole brand new experience of when I don't take action and the world doesn't stop turning yeah yeah that is that's the corrective experience isn't it absolutely yeah and that's when we start to build these new neural pathways neuroscience is doing amazing work we see from MRI scans and everything else that whole new parts of our brain activate when we do something different it's it's magical it's amazing right I think that's actually a really good place to end it this week absolutely and thanks so much for having me really enjoy the experience which is not something I expected to say exactly what you're talking about here you did something that was uncomfortable but not dangerous exactly the same way for this listener inaction is not dangerous yes and you learn that and the world keeps turning and now this yeah this is in your window of tolerance this is expanding the comfort zone and then in it look we get to experience the joy in the fascinating okay well on that note I hope this was helpful for you the listener and you can come back to us and share if you want again autonomy inaction is a choice here you don't have to do that and if anyone else wants myself and ready to answer your questions if you send an email in to beyond underscore survival at outlock.com I'll put the email address in the show notes and I'll also give roots links to her socials for her very new socials as she said so go and check her out thanks and we'll see you next week bye bye