The Five Marks of A Methodist | What a Real Christian Looks Like

(upbeat music) - Hello everyone and welcome to The Older's Gate Experience, the podcast of Older's Gate Church in New York, Pennsylvania. I'm Pastor Bob Kaeler. - I'm Pastor Jeff Markey. - We concluded our series this week on The Wesleyan Way. - Strangely. - Strangely - Strangely. - Warm to the heart of The Wesleyan Way. And this week we looked at where all this leads, which is about developing the character of a Methodist to really-- - The five marks. - The question of what a character of a real Christian looks like. - Right, a real Christian. I mean, you talked about that. I mean, you did open with Pop Quiz on what we had talked about throughout the rest of the series. And, you know-- - Yeah, and I didn't do it 'cause I was afraid that the answers would not be forthcoming. There'd be a lot of silence and crickets. 'Cause I mean, we did go through a lot of stuff. I mean, we did. - We really did. - Over the course of however many weeks it was. - Yeah. - There's a lot to absorb, especially if it's new information. So I just really encourage people to go back and look at the sermons and, you know, to kind of digest them because I think there's so much information there that's really helpful. But if you know those basics, it really does help you to think about, all right, all of this is leading somewhere. And I try to put it in a sequence where we started talking about the nature of God, the nature of Jesus, the nature of the Holy Spirit moving into the practices of the church sacraments, getting into why sin is such a big problem, talking about Christian perfection, which is the distinctive doctrine that we're known for. But we kind of wrap it all up. And I think if you don't know all the rest of that stuff, if you need to go back and look at that, that's great. But this last one, and I think this is where Wesley really is focused. What kind of people is this desire to produce? All that theology, all that practice, very important, necessary to understand. But what is the desired outcome? And that's what he's getting at in this particular text. - I mean, you talked about it in your message a little bit. How important it is to not digest this stuff for informational purposes, but to see transformation come of it as a result of what we understand. So Wesley mentioned that all this teaching only matters if it gets lived out, just like that. So how does this idea set up the rest of that message that you shared? - Well, I think the real point for Wesley was, does it develop into character? That's why he names this tract that he publishes in 1742, the character of a Methodist. - Yes. - He's receiving criticism because his people are acting differently. They're not the standard church people. I mean, they're kind of very radical in the sense that they're very much involved in radical love of others. This sense of deep practice around the class and band meetings. They were taking their faith very seriously. And that led some in the standard Anglican church to say, okay, these people are a little weird. They're preaching in the fields, which was not a thing that was common and was actually frowned upon. - Considered uncouth. - Yeah, vile. Even that's the word that was used. - Wow. - And so they're doing all these different practices. I mean, Wesley's getting thrown out of churches for preaching the gospel essentially. And in one case, he goes to Oxford. He's there at Oxford. And he's asked to preach in the university chapel. And he basically chastises everyone there. 'Cause he's outlining this kind of faith. And he's outlining, in fact, touching on some of these things that are talked about here in this tract. I think it's in 1744 that he does this sermon. And he basically says, where is this found here? I don't see it anywhere. - Wow. - So he really kind of lets them have it in that sense, which is really fascinating. And but his point is that this is basic Christianity. This is not radical stuff. This is not off the chain. This is the basic stuff that we are to be as followers of Christ. That's not just reading the word, but heating it. Actually living it out, actually doing the stuff. - Yeah, Methodists are not known because they wear funny hats or different underwear or they carry their Bibles in a certain way or they speak in tongues or saying just particular hymns. They're known for the basics of developing Christian character. And that's one of the things I love about this movement. It's not about how much knowledge you store up, but rather about does it translate into my daily life? Am I increasing my capacity to love God and love others? Am I allowing the Spirit to work in me to do that? That's really the aim of what we're talking about. - Wow, yeah. So we're just really thinking about the five marks of a Methodist is what he says. So a Methodist loves God, a Methodist rejoices in God, a Methodist gives thanks, a Methodist prays constantly and a Methodist loves others. So those are the essential marks, but really what you're saying is John Wesley is saying that this is really what it should be for a Christian, not as a Methodist. - Well Jesus says the greatest commandment, love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. He comes right out of Deuteronomy 6. Something that people in Jesus' day recited morning and night, first thing in the morning, last thing at night, it's called the Shema, hero Israel, the Lord your God, the Lord is one, you shall love the Lord your God. And saying this is job one, is developing the capacity to love. And so when we love God, when we love others, things like joy, things like Thanksgiving, things like constant prayer, are natural outcomes for us. They're natural things that we do to continue to deepen and develop that capacity to love. - Yeah, yeah. So I mean, you mentioned though that Wesley wrote the character of a Methodist, what prompted him to do that? Were people just misunderstanding? What he was about, what the Methodist movement was about? What was the reasoning behind it? - Well, he's talking about things like Christian perfection and he writes another tract called a plain account of Christian perfection to explain that. - Okay. - He's publishing a lot of things because the movement is very much misunderstood. But think about this sort of evangelical revival that's spreading across England. And you have something parallel happening in America with Jonathan Edwards and the great awakening and things like that. So you have this really expressive, biblically based, faith based understanding of church that runs against the grain of the state churches that were so prevalent at the time. I mean, the church of England was the state church. And so, you know, it was about respectability. It was about you staying within the lines. - Right. - Doing the sacrament, you know, the poor people sitting the back, the rich people sit up front, you buy your pews, all those kinds of things. - Very ferrisacle. - Yeah, and so, well, I don't know if ferrisacle is the right word. I think it's more expected. Here's the convention of how we do things. So he's breaking conventions by insisting that there is a higher expectation for us than just to occupy pews, just to go through the motions of doing the sacraments and things like that. Remember, what Wesley's trying to do with this movement is to reform the church of England. He's not trying to start a new denomination. So he's trying to reform the church of England. - So he's not trying to be hard-nosed about these things. He's not trying to be in their face, although-- - Well, I don't think that's exactly right. I think he is trying to do that. I think he's trying to do that in a way that is shocking to them because he's really doggedly determined to say, look, if we're gonna do Christianity, this is how we do it. We don't do half measures here. - We're not willing to coalesce. - We're not dipping our toe in here. If we're gonna be more like Jesus, that's gonna require radical transformation. And there's not too many easy ways to do that. You've got to really invest your time, your energy, your relationships in doing that. And so that's why the Methodist movement was so focused on being together in that. If you didn't want to do the method, you were out because they didn't have time to mess around-- - That it doesn't fit. - With nominal Christianity. And so in that sense, you have this really, and their scene is very radical because they have a very high expectation. And even churches today, it's ironic because high expectation churches tend to grow. And that's why the Methodist movement blew up. I mean, you do think people would go, "I'm not doing all of that." But people seeking authentic faith, they really want to be transformed. And so they'll do whatever it takes. - Right, I was just gonna say radical transformation because it requires radical effort. - Yeah, exactly, exactly. The more I invest myself in this movement, the more I receive and reap the rewards of following closer to Christ. That makes sense. such an impact. So how does that focus on character, then shape what it means to follow the Wesleyan way even today? - Well, I think one, we have to get back to the orientation that it is about character. - Yeah. - I think in some ways, when Methodism grew up, it became more like the Church of England that it was trying to reform. - Yeah, you can kind of see this arc of development and growth and then there's this sustain, which can be good or bad, but then generally speaking, then you're looking again. - Yeah, if you think about-- - Milk toast. - If you think about waves of things, you always want to start another movement when they are at the top of the wave. And we went through this period where Methodists stopped doing the practices, they stopped focusing on things, they even stopped teaching their own theology. I mean, it's always amazing to me how many Methodist churches that I've served where talking about the basics of our theology, people go, wow, this is radical new stuff. Well, no, it's actually-- - The old stuff. - It's the old stuff. It's the stuff we've been talking about from the beginning. And it's almost like a revelation to people. We've gotten away from that because we got focused on so many other things. Not bad things, social justice, worship practices, all these kinds of things, church growth models, all those kinds of things, not bad in and of themselves. But if you don't have an aim for what you're trying to accomplish, what is it that we're trying to do here? And Wesley was very clear. We're trying to grow people who look more like Jesus. That's what this is about. And I think when you bring that crystal focused to the forefront, when people see that and they begin to see it happening in themselves and in the people around them, that's when the fire really starts to get going. So I think for me, the one thing is, first of all, I gotta teach the basics. And then on top of that, I've also got to live them myself. - Yes. - But we've got to help people understand there's more to this. Then simply, it's like the old thing I heard once, that sitting in church doesn't make you a Christian anymore than sitting in a garage makes you a car. - Yeah, that's a great point. - You've got to really invest in this growth and allow the spirit to really work in you and put yourself in that place where you're dealing with the means of grace, you're putting yourself in a place of accountability. You're going on to perfection as Wesley would put it. So I think to have that sort of fire again, and we had this sort of great calling, I think after COVID, and I've talked about this before, where we lost a lot of consumer Christianity. A lot of those people kind of went off to the wayside because if you're coming for religious goods and services, which was true in Wesley's day with the Church of England, hatching, matching and dispatching. - Yeah. - That's a good question. - The reality is, if we want to see real depth if we want to see more revival, then we've really got to focus on what kind of character do we expect to see in people, and how are we helping them get there? - It's really incredible when I look at all the things that we're doing, and I'm not trying to just brag on all just a church. I understand if you're watching online, you're probably seeing us from other parts of the world, but when I think about the church and what we're doing, we've got, we help out with Bell social, providing gifts for children. We help out with Operation Christmas Childs, and in gifts around the world. We help out with the, the York County Food Bank, we send volunteers every month. There's time and time again, there's places and people we're helping out with new hope ministries and providing meals for families. All of these types of things are us seeking to fully embody our faith and become the people that Christ wants us to be. Become the church that's embedded in the fabric of our community and seeing life transformation and growth and health and vibrancy within our community. And so those types of things are that fleshing out of the faith that John Wesley has been seeking for our church, for the church. - To a large degree. - Yeah. - I would argue that the United Way does things like that too. - Yeah. - You know, there are plenty of organizations that aren't Christian that do good works. - Right. - And those are vital for us. - Yeah. - They're part of our calling to love our neighbor. - Yeah. - At the same time, however, we cannot neglect the idea of transformation in our personal character. - Yeah, yeah. - Yeah, absolutely. - And I think that's the balance that the Wesley and Vision brings is that we're not simply about benevolence. We're about character development. - Yeah, yeah. - And those two things have to go together. That's both sides of the gospel. - Oh, yeah, absolutely. - Yeah. So, I mean, a lot of churches do great things. - Yeah. - And we should do those things. And we do do those things. But where we often are lacking is that sense of, where is that coming from? Is it coming from? - Yeah, you're absolutely right. - Is the tree, is it the tree? - Is it just the good word? - That's bearing fruit, you know, as Jesus would put it. How are we developing that fruit of the spirit? Because it's very possible for us to serve and love our neighbors and still be awful people. - Yeah, absolutely. Oh, yeah. So, it's really a matter of not only doing the things that Christ calls us to do, but being in character, the person we were made to be in Christ. - Yeah, I think it's essential when people, and we don't do it for ourselves, right? But Jesus did say, we are a city on the hill that cannot be hidden and let our good work shine before all men that they might see him and praise him. - Yeah, if you do, if you do that, it's gonna leak out. - Exactly, exactly. And that's why I'm so proud of that. And I know it's, so much, we're so busy, honestly, in November, but what does it mean? Let's say, looking kind of inward now. What does it mean to have the love of God shed abroad in our hearts, as Wesley would say? - It's your first movement. Wesley would say that, that's the definition of a Methodist. The love of God shed abroad by the Holy Spirit, he would say the Holy Ghost, given unto us, that our first movement is always gonna be love. Now, that doesn't mean love in the sense of, affirming everything, puppies and rainbows, it is our first goal is always to love as Jesus loves. And sometimes that love is nurturing, sometimes it's challenging, sometimes it's bearing with. Sometimes it's loving our enemies, the tough stuff that we have to do. And loving without reciprocation, doesn't come back to us. - Right. - So, that's-- - Knowing that we're giving it to God. - Yeah, that's the primary orientation. - And Wesley would say, that's the whole focus of Christian perfection is increasing that capacity to love day by day, so that it becomes natural to us. It becomes like muscle memory to us. - Well, that's powerful. How is love for God, the foundation of for all other Marks of Methodists? I'm curious about that. - Well, we receive love from God. I mean, that's the first thing. And Wesley, in talking about Methodism, he says, "God loves us, therefore we love and obey God." We reflect that love back to him. That's what we're designed to do as NT Wright uses the image of human beings being angled mirrors. You know, that we reflect the love of God back to God. We also reflect creations, abundance and love back to God as well because we're the stewards of creation. - Yeah. - So all of those things are about how we're reflecting God's love back to him and then putting ourselves in a place where our primary orientation is about loving and pleasing God. And I've said this before, and I think Wesley would put it this way in modern terms. And that is that obedience is really God's love language. When God gives us things to do, and God does give us things to do, we don't earn God's love. Let me be clear about that. We don't earn God's love. - Right, right, right. - But we respond to it. - It's a response. - Absolutely. - We respond to it. - And if we fail to respond to it, then is it really, really love? It's unrequited love. You know, we have to respond to his love. And the way that we do that is through our obedience, through our giving of ourselves, through our devotion, all of those things that are so important to us. You know, the very things that we're talking about here, through prayer, through giving, through helping others, through our worship, all those things are always that we reflect our love back to God. We love our neighbors well. We're also loving God well because we're passing along what we've received. One of the ways I always put it is, God's love always comes to us on its way to someone else. - Yeah. - And I think that's really how we have to think about it. - Yeah. - You know, that our love is quantified and qualified by the love of God that is in us. So we have to be willing to receive that love, to recognize that we're loved, and then out of that love, out of that comes an abundance of things that we're able to share with others. - Yeah, I get the sense. It's difficult sometimes we take things for granted. You know, day by day, every day is a blessing. And we. We have a tendency to just say, oh, here's another day. You're blessed to have another day. The scripture says, his mercy is our new every morning, greatest diffatleness. A Methodist is supposed to give thanks. That's what we recognize in the five marks of a Methodist. Wesley said Methodists give thanks in all circumstances. In all circumstances, that includes the days that are hard, that includes the days that are difficult when you receive a difficult diagnosis or when you receive bad news from a family member or something like that. What allows someone to do that honestly, not just as a slogan that we hear in the five marks of Methodist, but in all circumstances, give thanks? I think for Wesley, it's tied to assurance. When we're assured that we're loved by God, that we're secure in our relationship with God, then we can give thanks in all circumstances because we know that no matter what happens in the end, we are with him. We are part of his kingdom. And that sense of assurance then gives us a sense of boldness to be able to live and be content in any circumstance. Paul talks about this. I've learned to be content in whatever circumstance because of Christ in me and because he knows. And if you read Paul, you see all the circumstances that he was in and still singing while he's in prison, chains of a wall. Yeah. I'm going to be using that as an example on Sunday, too. Because he knows that he's in Christ. And he's in a place where living or dying, he's in Christ. For me to live as Christ die is gain. You only say that if you're very much assured. And Wesley was all about that assurance that the love of God in us lets us know that we are children of God. And we can live that way. We can live secure. We can live that knowledge. We can be content in any circumstance. It doesn't mean that we're just like, well, it doesn't really matter. No. But rather we can look ahead and say, where is good being worked in the midst of this, even though I am in a great place. But God is still at work. Knowing that God is with us and knowing that God is still at work enables us to give thanks. I mean, there's an emotional sensitivity when we're dealing with difficult circumstances. We're all feeling those terrible trials and stuff. But there should be that spiritual sensitivity as well that God is with us through those circumstances. And I know that that relationship with Him, that assurance that we can receive, helps us through all those challenges. So how does that gratitude, that change our outlook on those challenges that that's suffering? You kind of talked about that. Yeah, I think that's, you know, we were able to see the bigger picture and recognize, if my love of God is all about pleasing God, then my thankfulness is all about saying, God, I am yours. I trust you. I'm giving you myself in the midst of this, to use me in whatever way you can in the midst of this trial or whatever it happens to be. Just drawing us deeper. So a Methodist praise constantly. Yeah, this is the one that people go, well, how do you do that? I mean, I can't pray. I'll wreck my car. There's a great video, five killer proertives, and it's just hilarious. It's just like, yeah, there's, there's a, this one gets a lot of press because people say, how does that, how does that work? Pretty constantly. And I love the fact that Wesley really does kind of describe it more as an orientation than a practice. Yeah. Now he's going to really be focused on the practice as well, saying, this is a means of grace, daily prayer. I mean, he really used the, the Anglican book of common prayer. He wrote his own version of it for the Methodists, the Sunday Service of the Methodists. So the prayer book, he said, was the greatest thing ever done in English language. Thomas Kranmer, in the 1500s, had put it together. He said it was the greatest thing ever. So there was a regular, regularity to practice for Wesley. But when he's talking about praying without seizing, I think along with Paul, he's really saying that her whole life is oriented toward God. When I'm in the car and I'm driving, and my, or my thoughts directed toward, how am I pleasing God in the Methodist? Is that, am I aware of God's presence with me in that moment? Or are there times when I am simply compartmentalizing my life, putting God over here and then doing my own thing? And I think in our world, that's the hard part. Why we struggle with this whole idea of praying without seizing, because we're very compartmentalized. Once I switch on my computer, and I start scrolling, then I'm in another world. But if I'm watching the news, I can get sucked into that. But what if instead of just watching the news, I'm praying the news? What if instead of when I hear a siren just going, man, I really got to avoid that piece of traffic up there to say, am I praying for the person who I hear, and every time I hear a siren, do I say a prayer? - Yeah. - Am I oriented toward thinking about God in every moment of every day life? Western Christians are not great at this. We've not been great at this typically, because we do tend to live these segmented compartmentalized lives. I did a lot of study on the Celtic tradition of Christianity where, and I've got prayer books on my shelf, because they had prayers for everything. Prayers for milking cows. - Oh, wow. - And things like that. - Yeah, I didn't know. - These everyday tasks that were opportunities to be in prayer, it's really interesting to think about that, that everything that we do, because every day is a gift, as you said, every moment is an opportunity to celebrate where God is at work in the midst of that. Even in the midst of conflict, even in the midst of difficulty, God is present in some way. And it's being aware of that, not just simply, I'm gonna stop and bow my head and close my eyes and fold my hands, but rather to just be aware of God's presence in that moment. - Yeah, every moment, if we see our lives in that light, then every moment could become that. I am gonna bow my head and pray in this moment, because of this. I find for me, you know, I have the Eversion Bible app, but for the vast majority of my cell phone, it becomes a really, I struggle deeply with allowing myself to be in prayer constantly, because I've got this constant distraction, either in my pocket or in my hand, to pull me away from what God wants for my life. And I can't believe how much time I spend on social media sometimes. - For me, one of the things that really helps with that is paper and pen, you know, journaling, I've said this before, getting out of that space, getting off the screen and saying, "I'll literally write down my prayers in the morning, "because my mind is spinning 1,000 miles an hour, "and if I'm writing that I'm focused on it." - It forces you. - And that can only go so fast. - I can reflect back on it then as well. And there are practices like that that help us to, and if you keep a notebook with you, and there are times when you just have a thought or jot it down or just being aware of God or something like that, that you notice something, it tends to slow down your thinking. There's a lot of study that says that the way that we do life now with our screens and our phones is killing us. - Yeah, it's for now. - Not just physically, but spiritually. - And emotionally too. - Yeah, we need to really think about how we limit those things, so that we can be more aware, create more space, be more mindful of God's presence with us. - Yeah, so if you're watching us on your phone, I'm not gonna say stop, but. - Just turn off the video. We're not much to look at anyway, but that's okay. - Goodness, yeah. So then finally, the fifth mark is Methodists love others. And we've talked about that somewhat, and regarding the church itself, and regarding how we can do it. - Yeah, and it's my whole orientation. Because if I am aware of God's presence, and if my whole orientation is about pleasing God, it's gonna change the way I look at other people. And I'm gonna look at people differently. I'm gonna look at those who I'm opposed to. differently, those who oppose me, those who look at me differently. I'm gonna be oriented toward them, even if they never reciprocate that, as Wesley says, I'm gonna be praying for them. I'm gonna be doing my best to put myself in a place where I am not stewing in my stuff, but rather saying, how do I love these people, even if they don't love me back? - Right, whether or not we feel they deserve it or not. - Exactly. - Yeah, yeah. That's not our place, right? Our job is just to simply love and obey. - Yeah, and that's the real mark of sanctification, I think. When you're able to love your enemies, well, that's when you're getting, know you're getting close to that whole idea of entire sanctification. 'Cause I think that's probably the last part of this that's the hardest. - Yeah. So we know, you know, John Wesley hated the term. He didn't like the term Methodist. He understood what it meant. Obviously, based on what people were saying and then that's why he put out this document, but that people would understand what it meant, what it means. So what do you think Wesley would wish, if Methodists can't disappear, if that name can't disappear, what do you think he would want it to mean for people? - Well, I think he wants it to mean people who are serious about growing to be more like Jesus. That's really what it means. And that they have a method to do so. Right. every Christian would say, "Yeah, we should really probably be more like Jesus." But the thing that the Methodist did was says, "Well, we expect that to happen." Yeah. Yeah. And there's a huge difference between. That's what we're aiming for. Huge difference. That's what we're structuring around. Yeah, those who don't and those who do it, and it makes such a huge difference. Yeah. Now, you closed with the hope that Alder's Gate would continue to be a glory and a praise to the name of Christ. That was based on what was it, "Fricing Yourself." Yeah. The W.M. Freisinger, who was the first pastor of what would become Alder's Gate Church, came to York in 1861. The Mother Church was actually asbury Methodist Church, but after that church was established, they wanted to plant some other additional congregations. Wow. So the circuit writer was sent to establish a new church, started preaching on the street within six months. They had built a frame chapel and had started and had about 150 people. So when he left, those are the words he left with saying, "I hope that this church would become a glory and a praise to the name of Christ in all time." And I think, as I've said, I think Fricinger would be excited about what God's doing here. But there's always more for us to be doing. And ways for us to be growing, not only in what we do for our community, but also in the way that we're growing people who reflect the character and nature of Christ. I think it's so important that we just ask the question, "God, what is it that you have for us?" Yeah. And what can we do to align with you more deeply? Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Well, I hope you've enjoyed this series, and we encourage you to go back and archive these. And if you're wanting to dive deeper into the Methodist movement, of course, there's a lot of other great material out there. Seedbed.com is a great resource as well. There's a lot of great stuff on there about the Methodist way. There are lots of other resources. Contact us if you want to learn more. You can email us at communications.org/gatework.com. You can also just share, like, comment on the video below. We'd be happy to answer your questions there as well. And we'll be getting into sermon this week on. Yeah. Praise is our weapon. It's a one-off before we get into our Advent series in Luke. And thank you, Randy, for your help today on the podcast, as always. Thank you for joining us, and we'll see you back here next time on the Aldersgate Experience. God bless.