The feedback pendulum

[Music] Hello and welcome to the podcast Mr. Michael Childs, how are you? I'm good, thank you, it's good to be here, hello everyone. Well thank you very much for joining us and for those that don't know you or know of you. Can you please give us a quick introduction to who you are and your background? Yes, so I've now been teaching for 13 years, so it's my 13 academic year, probably the most challenging academic year that I've encountered in those 13 years since qualifying. And in terms of my background, so I've taught in the sort of West Midlands initially when I started training, so down south just outside of Birmingham, and moved up north to sort of the Northwest, sort of about four or five years ago now. And this is probably, I've been teaching now in six different schools and taken on a trust role now with the sort of great schools trust since September, so it's an exciting new role. I've also offered a few books and obviously we're here today to talk about one of those books in particular and in a few additional roles which is quite starting really the role as a principal examiner, one of the leading exam boards and then luckily enough over the last couple of months having participated in my own sort of campaign and to get elected as Mr. Trump failed in his, I was victorious and being elected until the College of Teaching Council, which is quite exciting opportunity and I'm sure that will be interesting to see how that evolves over the next sort of three to four years. Congratulations, but I think in all of that you've, you've not told us your subject. That is true, actually, yes, you have very true, actually, yes, my main sort of subject is geography, so trying to be a geography teacher and now leading geography, I can say at this small trust got four schools and leading geography and supporting sort of heads department in the other three schools and leading the geography in one of the schools in particular. Okay, well, as you said, we're going to talk about the subject of your most recent book, which is about feedback. So on the podcast today, we're going to talk about the feedback pendulum, which is a book that follows your previous book called the Craft of Assessment and I think it's great that you followed up the assessment book with a one on feedback because we at EBE think about assessment and feedback really is two sides of the same coin. We need assessment to give us information that allows us to provide feedback, so I think that's a great sequel. So Michael, the first question I'd like to ask is why you decided to write a book about feedback and I think what I what a mean by that is what are the issues or the opportunities with feedback that compelled you to write the book. Yeah, and I think as you rightly said that it's sort of followed sort of a similar to a new series that I almost decided for me when I thought about what would I write about next and you're right when when you think about how we assess pupils, we gather that information. And although with some assessment practices is still probably not where we want them to be as we as we know them, I know you guys are working hard to sort of contribute towards that sort of reeducation about how we can rethink assessment, but you're right, I think feedback does follow naturally. And therefore it led me to this idea of that sort of analogy of a pendulum and I thought at the time last year when I was considering this is a second book. And actually we want that sort of swinging pendulum to be moving towards the people who are getting the feedback and in particular when we're assessing sort of our pupils, it's the pupils that we want to receive the feedback and we want to focus on the way in which that we sort of provide that feedback to pupils in the classroom. So sort of like for me was like sort of like a real sort of clear next step forward really to focus on feedback and I think that over the last sort of 13 years my approach to providing feedback to pupils has changed significantly. And I remember and I talk about it in craft and expand on it in the new book that actually we got sort of confused I feel as a profession with what we classed as marking and providing feedback and I think they got sort of wrapped up together and almost it got lost as to what what the process was and why we're doing it. Yeah and I think that was key really so given that you talk about feedback with different stakeholders of pupils, parents and teachers have you got have you collected a definition of the purpose of feedback in doing this book. It's an interesting question actually because when you look at the definitions they're quite very form form you like in the research papers and quite sort of non descriptive in its nature it's very very loose the definition but I think if I was to say what what do I what do we mean by feedback or for those different stakeholders for me it's. It's comes into under the umbrella of providing information in whatever form that may be to help the stakeholder whoever's receiving that whether it be the pupils the teachers or the parents to actually move forward and improve I think that's quite key it's about feedback is about enabling improvement and I think that talk about it quite a lot of the start that actually. We get feedback all the time no matter what we do whether we're in schools night in schools, we're over at home we get feedback and whatever we do we've recooked the dinner and we get feedback on how good the dinner was for that was part that we put in front of the family or we get feedback on our driving there's the whole there's old cliches and his other don't be a backseat driver so. I think when it comes to meals the absence of feedback is probably the most common feedback I get like no comment yeah I think that it's about giving information that enables improvement and I think that's what I would I don't would class as a so overarching and I think sometimes the problem is that inevitably like in the case of providing meals or being backseat drivers we as humans as the human nature for us and I think that's what I would say. I think that's the nature for us not to want to always receive feedback and we can be quite guarding and I think that that's something that we have to be mindful of in particular in schools when we deal with the different stakeholders that inevitably there are people that are not going to want to hear the feedback whether that be the pupils that we're teaching or be the parents that we're sharing information about their child with whether it be another colleague that we're working with we've got to be mindful that she they don't always want to be. They don't always want to receive that feedback. Yeah absolutely I mean it's so multifaceted isn't it there's there's different types and levels of feedback that we can give but to do that and for the feedback to be meaningful and effective it has to be used and you know if we want feedback to be used we've got to have a culture where feedback is kind of not taken as criticism and we've got to have relationships that allow for that. Message to be transmitted in the way that we mean it don't we yes absolutely I talk about the sort of free sort of elements of feedback that we can give feedback it's quite easy in some respects to give feedback doesn't necessarily mean that that feedback is is quality feedback or is what you would say is is productive feedback we can give feedback all the time. We we will we will we will even receive it or reject it and maybe we want to move towards more receiving it and then the the next step is that action bit and I think all too often we get a lot of feedback we give a lot of feedback depending on what what stance we take but how often do we action it and if we don't action it is it actually as John that he sort of said in his closing thoughts is actually making any sound. Absolutely so there's got to be opportunities haven't there for people to act on feedback I think all too often we think the job of feedback is done once it's been given. Having the opportunity for people to kind of respond to that feedback and for the person who's given feedback to check whether that's been understood taken on board and acted upon is also key to the process. So in your book you explore as we discussed not only feedback to people but also feedback loops with teachers and parents and I'd like to try if we can in a. short podcast to explore each of those on to in turn, but we'll perhaps focus predominantly on people. So if we take people's first, what do you think are the big opportunities when it comes to feedback? What's your advice in terms of how we might enhance the effectiveness of feedback we give to people and why we should focus on that as well? Yeah, so I think we've sort of touched on it already as well. That actually it's about those relationships and it's about creating those positive relationships and priming the pupils that you teach for the feedback that you're going to give them because you want them to receive it. And I think that's key because once they feel that that feedback is meaningful, it's a portive process, you're doing it to help them improve, then you're going to get that part where they're actually going to want to take it on board. And then you're more likely going to get the sort of process where they're going to want to action it. And I think that's really key. And I think that if there was one aspect of feedback that I think every teacher should work on or every teacher should invest time in is creating that culture of sort of creating a receptive feedback. Look, because I think without that, like I think too often, like you say, we can just give feedback because it maybe is what we're told to do. They're all too often we see stories up and down the country where teachers are giving their sort of looking at or they're using a sort of policy in school. That tells them that they need to mark, extra number of weeks, they need to mark this, they need to mark that. But actually is that having any impact? And is it just lots and lots and lots of information given to pupils and lots of information given to senior leaders to say yes they're on track? Yes I've marked this, yes my books are marked and they're up today. And who's that feedback for? Who's that policy for? Is it to make some people in certain positions feel comfortable that something has happened and they can prove something has happened or is it feedback to improve the learner themselves? Absolutely. Now I think that's really important isn't it because we can teach us time is so precious and even more so if the situation we're in but we don't want to be wasting teachers time and how much teachers time is wasted by just giving unnecessary feedback. And I think that's something that really needs to be addressed because like you say who is it for? Is it is it actually for the person or in this case the stakeholder which is the pupil? Is it actually for them or is it to to pacify a senior leader or is it for a senior leader to justify their position or is it for the school to track progress to maybe say that they're on on track to achieve in what they're expecting to? And I think so with the when you talk about culture and priming I really like that notion of priming students to feedback. It'd be good if we could explore that a bit sort of briefly but I'm reminded of something Harry Fletcher would said, you know I think just explaining why we're giving feedback you know that that in itself is quite a helpful mechanism you know just reminding people because in isolation when we're given comments on on our performance you know in isolation they might I don't feel like criticism and so I think he talks about Harry Fletcher would talk about saying to the student I suppose it's a bit of a primer in itself I am giving you this feedback because I know you can achieve x, y and z and I have confidence in your abilities to get to this point and then the feedback is delivered it's kind of you know it's the wrapper before in which the feedback is given isn't it if you just gave the feedback in isolation it might just be it might be received less well perhaps. Absolutely yeah and that's why I felt that whole phrase of priming sort of fitted quite well we were how I reflected um let you say how I actually would talk about in his his book that without that context like if any in any situation then people's won't receive it well and they may um and then the other thing is that there's a difference isn't between where you give feedback to someone and they receive it are they receiving the feedback that you intended on giving and I think that's quite crucial as well I think that's so to reflect on it because often you might you might think actually I know what I want to say to provide feedback for that pupil that does it come out does it end up being received in that way and it and if pupils don't understand why they're receiving feedback for that particular task or that part of the learning sequence and it can get lost and get fragmented and I suppose that's that's some of the key issues as to why we should really invest in that time to prime pupils because the more we do that the more they understand the reasons to why we're giving them that feedback. Yeah yeah I think with a lot of these things it can feel like oh this is another thing to do but if you're giving feedback anyway then you know let's make it as impactful as possible and create some meaning around that feedback otherwise it's just a waste of time in the first place. Absolutely and I think problem is as well that I talk about the fact that the feedback is not just verbal when it's not it's not just written it's often we do a lot non verbal cue feedback and I'm sure that when teachers in the classroom and you give a particular feedback can be like some facial expressions can even sort of create opportunities to give feedback. So we really want to filter out the feedback that we're giving so that it becomes really focused on helping them to improve and I love the I love the obviously some of the illustrations in the book to represent some of the thoughts that I had and that particularly one about a primal man where you've got the teacher with the watering can and you've got the student there and they're helping to grow that that plant together. Well the book is full of lots of good and practical advice and sounding we can't cover it all in this relatively short podcast. So can we explore one feedback strategy and can you talk us through how that particular strategy can be implemented and why is there any one particular thing that you'll talk us through? Yes so I thought that one of the most practical aspects of the things that I talk about in the chapter for pupils is whole class feedback and I think that is also important in sort of the remote context as well and how we can use that as a tool to support both sort of teacher workload around providing feedback and I'm trying to avoid the word marking because when I think about the phrase marking I think about marking exams or marking tests and that's really an internal barometer I suppose for a teacher or bit not necessarily as we know very reliable. I'm actually talking about whole class feedback which is around feedback relating to the process that you wanted the pupils to undertake in that particular sort of maybe application tests that you get them to do in the subject. So I think that whole class feedback has a number of guises and you see on the internet and I'm Twitter lots of people share strategies but I think fundamentally what is the purpose of whole class feedback? Well it's to reduce the need to mark 30 books and write the same comment on those 30 books first of all but I think and then I think about how has it actually been used and I suggest and as a graphic that David Goodwin did for me to represent the thoughts and it sort of goes through that flow chart and process about how we can do it so we may have a set of books and we'll look over the books and we'll look at the pupils responses that teacher will look at those responses they'll gather in just while they're looking at them some notes about okay so how how people's performed in what was the intention of that task and what are the common misconceptions so making note of those common misconceptions? Where are the areas that people's really performed well on so making note of that because we know we want to pick out some of those areas for strength because actually this is not necessarily about just praising those pupils because we know that sometimes praise can be lost with pupils and although we want to praise the success we have to sort of drip feed that praise where it's appropriate to do so but we want to keep those strengths because actually can we then when we go back to pupils to follow in lesson can we then say actually can we use these to illustrate sort of how specific pupils have been successful against that success criteria for that task and can we use that for for modelling or where we've got common misconceptions, does the teacher see that actually, and we could use maybe this idea of an 80/20 rule. So we say that, over class, we want at least 80% to be successful. And if 80% are successful, then we're on the right lines for maybe moving on. But if we're not at that point, then do we need to readdress where those misconceptions were in that task? So part of that whole class feedback process is then say, right, I'm going to reteach this at the start and access them because it's really important they didn't get this particular aspect of the task. Or there was that misconception around a concept of process that I wanted them to understand. And I think I also talk about in that, the last bit of that sort of flow chart about how to do whole class feedback as a teacher, is that you're improving the learning of the work summary. Yeah, so that improving the learning not that work specifically. Because I think as good as whole class feedback is, and as good as some other strategies I see, I think all too often, is it just that it's another trend? And then actually, are we actually using it to feed forward? Or are we using it just to address that piece of work? And not. And then are we seeing actually? And it could be a good reflection for teachers that are listening to this, maybe go back and look at some whole class feedback sheets. Our teacher's writing exactly the same. So comments or suggestions for improvement on that whole class sheet from one task to another. And actually, therefore, is it having that impact or is it just improving that work and not actually supporting the learner to make improvements moving forward? And when you talk about improving the student, improving the people, I'm reminded of Hattie and Timpley effective feedback, which tells the people, where am I going? How am I going? I have to next. But they talk about these levels of feedback as well, don't they? So different levels of feedback into feedback on the task, which sometimes is the thing that we want to focus on. But feedback also on the approach to the task. So there's self-regulation, metacognition, and how students can approach the task. So there is obviously a need sometimes to focus on feedback on the task itself, where we need to identify what is correct perhaps, or what is incorrect, and why, but also how they can check that in the future themselves. And that's-- is that what you mean by in terms of improving the student so that next time they approach this, they can think, well, how do I check what I've answered here? Yeah, definitely. And I think that it comes down to-- in a lot of subjects, we have those-- I suppose, again, it's the difference between knowledge and skills, because-- and I know that David Didell talked a lot about that in the past, but when it comes down to knowledge, you're right, we need to let them know if it's right or wrong. And that's where we address those misconceptions. But then in terms of the skills, what was the process that was intended for that particular task? So for example, was it that we were asking them to assess something? Or was we asking them to evaluate? Was we asking them to explain their ideas, to discuss their ideas? And actually, are we addressing those elements within our feedback? So that, OK, if we've got issues with misconceptions, if we've got issues with things being wrong, we know we need to get that right. So we address that the following. And that's done by reteaching it. We may do some retrieval practice. We invest some time to reteach that if we need to. But are we then looking at those transferable skills from one sort of a task to another? So are they making the same mistakes, whereby they're not explaining their ideas from one task to another? Are they not evaluating their ideas? So actually, the process to actually get to outcome of that task is that being addressed, or are they making those same errors throughout the work? So is it actually helping them to feed forward? And I think that that's where I sort of feel about distinguishing between those elements of the feedback that I've had to intimately talk about. And so if we draw to a close on feedback and pupils, I guess, as you said, teacher's time is really, really precious. How would you convince people to pay more attention to how they might enhance their feedback practices? I think it's going back to again what is-- and I said this before a few weeks ago to someone, why are you giving that feedback? So take a step back from what you're doing, why are you giving it? What purpose is it having? What's your intention of that feedback? Is that same intention sort of received in the same way by the pupils? But more importantly, how you get into action in it. And I think that's really important. So think if I was to say one of the key areas the teachers would be those building those relationships that create that receptive culture. And then considering what approach you're taking about particular type of feedback, and is it having the desired impact that you want it to have? And how he said in the book launch a few weeks ago, he said, you can give feedback so much every day, and you can do it all the time. But if you don't have that relationship with our pupil, or if you don't have that relationship with that teacher, or a colleague, if you don't have the relationship, we'll pet the parent. It just won't make the sound that you want it to make. And I think that, like we're saying, that teacher's time is so valuable. But actually, we want to take a step back and reflect and say, is that time being invested in the right way? Yeah. And we know, well, it's fairly well-known now that feedback can have such a huge impact on learning, both positively and negatively. And I think the case for it is, as you've said, it's happening all the time. It's such a huge component of learning how are we doing it, and are we doing it as best as we possibly can, because there are great gains to be made, I think, in getting feedback, right, isn't there? Just in terms of the impact on learning and seeing our pupils flourish in the classroom. OK. We'll move on to teach your feedback now. And I noticed and was police to seeing a book that user, quote, from my colleague, @eberobco. That quote is, if we want teachers to get better at something as complex as teaching, we need to provide the same conditions that we provide for our students to support their learning. I guess that is, to some extent, in terms of how I read it, that the big idea of the chapter of this book. So how would you, Michael, in your own words, summarize the issues here and opportunities for meaningful teacher feedback? What kind of change are you advocating? Yeah, I think, sort of, Professor Kose sort of comments, sort of, really stuck out to me when I read his article that, if we're saying that, right at the start, that no matter how feedback is given, how it's received, how it's actioned, and we're saying that we give feedback no matter what we're doing in our life every day. That actually shouldn't-- we shouldn't be applying a different approach to how we give feedback to teachers. Because otherwise, we're going to end up with a situation where, again, we're just giving feedback to teachers. OK, we've given them some feedback. But I've gone in and watched that lesson. I've observed that, colleague. I've given them some feedback. OK. They may have received it, or they may have not received it, probably more often than not, to be honest. And have they actually actually not? Because all too often, probably what's happened is, they've done a performance management observation once a year, they've ticked the box. And it's not actually helped that teacher. And, again, so we come back to what we've already said with pupils, why are we giving teachers the feedback in the first place? And if we're not giving it to how teachers to improve, then why are we doing it? And I think all too often. And I think that I've been subjected to it myself. It's more about a case of teachers get feedback from others. So that that particular observer can prove that that teacher is doing an effective job in a very commas. Yeah. That's the trouble at the minute. I did know, actually, in that chapter, this improved, not-prove type strategy, which I think isn't alluding to there. It's not that we need, or we should ask teachers, to prove something. The support of teachers is about improving how they teach and pupils learning, not proving something to somebody else. And I really liked that. I can't remember whether that was your saying or somebody else's. But it was good. Yeah, that was actually Chris Moise, who sort of quite. that phrase, yeah, but yeah, I agree it's a great phrase and having been part of a sort of instructional coaching program over the last few years and having been part of a completely different approach to feedback to teachers, having been in sort of school environment for 13 years over the last few years being involved in that, which actually helped to sort of prime out some of these ideas that had for this chapter. It's probably the best former feedback I've received from colleagues in my whole career. So, it had a massive impact and I think because I remember years ago that it used to be a case of okay, so we'll do performance management observation, we'll give the teacher free targets and that's it, we'll leave them to go and do it and actually we know that that's not a successful approach and we know that all that's going to do is mean that we've given it tick, we've they've received it or not maybe not as I've said and then have they actioned it probably not because again we can say to a teacher, oh okay, so I think I feel from what I've seen that you probably need to do some improvements around questioning but actually what does that mean and I talk about that idea of making it more granular for teachers as much as pupils. Yeah, all the principles that we've talked about when we talk about feedback for pupils apply here don't they? You know, there's a huge irony, teachers know what kind of strategies will hopefully lead to an improvements in students in terms of their own learning but when it comes to teacher CPD, those principles are hardly applied at all I would say, you know, the opportunity to practice, to revisit stuff, to kind of check in, to provide meaning to that feedback, it's just a terrible shape. I mean, teach a feedback as essentially the driver for our great teaching toolkit project which you talked about earlier so we're certainly working to try and encourage and support that kind of culture that you describe. Absolutely and I think it's really important because like you say, I mean the sort of stakeholders teachers who are giving feedback to pupils and are actually receiving effective feedback themselves so is it no wonder that at times that the teachers can get lost in actually how to give feedback to pupils is if I suppose it's also that learnt behavior as well. I think we and I read a number of studies while sort of writing the book that we have some learnt behaviors and we learn those from from our historical sort of childhood and the environments that we brought up in and the influences that we are sort of sort of put on us and actually if we if we as teachers if I'm getting free targets to improve then why wouldn't I give it to pupils because that's what I know that's that's what I'm giving so why wouldn't I give it to my pupils. Which is a terrible shame. So I mean if we can stop and pause that the message there I think is is the kind of feedback I get as a teacher the kind of feedback I would hope to give to my students to improve them you know and it's a shame that we can't do that obviously it's a busy profession but you talk about influences there and learnt behavior that is a perfect segue into the chapter about parents I think. There's turning to parents obviously they are a major factor when it comes to learning. The things parents do before a child starts school and during their time at school are really significant. So engaging parents in children's learning and being helpfully active in that process would be great but again it always comes down to achieving this how do we achieve this and it takes time doesn't it comes down to the teacher in their time. So I want to ask you how do you think we get a return on investment here. I think that and a lot of studies are aired over the last couple of months while I was writing the book. Primary schools do this a lot better than secondary schools and I think that's because evidently at primary school there's usually commonly one teacher per year group and that that teacher gives feedback to those groups of families for that one class over the year and maybe there's the argument that there's potentially more time for contact and so forth at primary schools with parents but I think that what's key is moving away from just giving parents information and actually involving them in their child's education whether that be a primary or secondary and I think more so when when people get up to secondary school there's also that sort of research article that I talk about in the book where I think the problem we get is that when when parents are at a stage where their child is going to high school their relatability around the work that their child is doing becomes more difficult for them to engage with themselves and therefore then that leads that to that disconnect between parents, pupils and teachers and the school so actually we need to invest the time in bringing our parents back into secondary schools in particular so it's not an information given exercise it's not okay this is where your child's at they're on this they've got this sort of grade for their assessment they're expected to get this target or and so forth and this is what's happening more about bringing them on board so that it's a collaborative approach and I talk about the idea of having regular feedback with parents not just one singular consultation even and actually I think I talk about the scenario that consultation evenings can become a very formulaic event that actually is just about ticking a box to say we've had contact with parents this year and also talk about I feel very passionate as well about this idea that a lot of the time we can't assume that parents know what to do and I think that if we do that then then we can fall into the trap of losing that relationship so actually equipping the parents with it may be guides it may be workshops where they come into school to empower them to support their child because ultimately I'm a father myself we know that on the whole 99.1% of the time parents want their child to do well and actually it's not the case that they don't want to support them I think it's more the case they don't know how to support them. No agreed I think the key to so many things is communication and meaning you know there's a lot to be gained I think in just explaining to parents this is what we do this is how we go about things in improving that relationship because remote learning has just given parents a much wider window into learning in terms of you know there are parents over the show some there are some parents who are literally over the shoulder of their child as they're being taught or they're receiving something they're instantly sort of more involved in the process and then starting to ask questions themselves oh I wonder why they're doing that and you know they'll come to their own conclusions and quite often I think if you take one example I don't know if my daughter says oh we've we're getting asked questions about this we've done this already you know as a parent you might go well that seems like a waste of time but you know just because I work in education it happens that I might think oh well I wonder if they're sort of bringing in some sort of retrieval strategy or approach you know they're they they're going back over content they've taught months ago because they really want to kind of make sure that students are particularly solid in terms of their understanding of this particular concept or whatever it might be so I could have that interpretation but many parents could be thinking well what on earth are they doing and that doesn't help the relationship does it so I think there's this huge gains to be made I think with the parent relationship absolutely yeah I totally agree okay well Michael I think we'll draw it to a close there just reminders again what the book's called and where people can find it yes so it's called feedback pendulum and you can get it now straight away via amazon you can source it through amazon or you can source it directly through john catt who are the the publishers of of the book and you mentioned john hatty as well as um absolutely yes written he's sort of given his endorsement I guess to the book he was part of your launch and he's he's written is it a forward or something at the end of the book yes so he yes so he he wrote the the closing thoughts the last chapter sort of reflecting on on what I've talked about previously but yes so he it was fantastic to have him involved given his sort of previous work over several decades on feedback and was particularly uh pleasing that he said that when he read it he said that basically he felt that I'd got it I'd got why feedback needed to be um change and and he he said that the the pendulum idea was sort of crucially that that sort of uh analogy of swinging it towards the person that's receiving it more rather than how it's being given. Well, what an endorsement. So if you want to get it as well, then get the book, I guess. Thank you very much, Michael. (upbeat music)