The Fatal Flaws of the Eastern Conference Contenders! Plus, Awards and TV Talk!

This episode is brought to you by Major League Baseball. The MLB postseason has arrived. There's no time like October. October starts with hope and then drama and either happiness or some pain. Now, the games decide who gets to keep it. It comes down to one series, one game, one pitch, one month. It's not a question of if history will be made, but when. Don't miss the moment. Tune into the MLB postseason. Learn more at MLB.com slash postseason. Before this, there's this. As you celebrate the game, take a deeper look at its roots. The people growing the grass, paving the lots, welding the goalposts, inspecting every football. The hardworking people that make every Sunday possible. Carhartt is proud to outfit the crews behind the game. Visit Carhartt.com slash join the trades to learn more. Coming up on the Zach Lowe Show, it's Jalen Duren Day. Not much more to talk about. With that, we will see what Jalen Duren does with the qualifying offer by midnight tonight, Eastern Time. Kirk Goldsberry is here, and we're talking about our trust issues with everyone in the Eastern Conference other than the Knicks and a related poll question that I threw around to tons of people around the league that I'm now forcing Kirk. And I'm going to talk to you about that. I'm going to hang on myself to answer, which is this. If you had to pick a team other than the Knicks and for the people who worked in the league and work at teams other than your own team to make the NBA Finals out of the East to win three playoff series, who would you pick? The responses, as you might expect, were all over the place. Kirk and I go through the concerns of all of these teams, and we hit them all because the responses were all over the place. Tons of teams got brought up, and then we forced ourselves to make our pick to that very question. Interesting stuff there. And then we pick defensive player of the year. If one B does not make the 65 game threshold and rookie of the year is I continue to round out my awards predictions for the year. And then Joanna Robinson is here. What a delight. And she's here in large part for me to yell and scream about the New York Times top 100 list and how they messed it up in a million different ways, but also to name her favorite shows, to name shows that we want to rewatch, to name underrated and overrated shows on the list, and to recommend me some shows that I maybe have. I've missed out on. I've got some gripes, and Joanna helps me get my gripes into the world. That's all coming up on the Zach Lowe Show. Welcome to the Zach Lowe Show. Look who it is. Kirk Goldsberry. You have never looked more professorial. The dark blazer. Does it have elbow patches? No elbow patches? Can't afford those. Can't afford those. The glasses and the, I mean, the mustache, it almost looks fake. It's so good. I mean, it's thick. Oh, thank you. It's symmetrical. There's no gaps in it. It's got a little texture I can see. I mean, you're really killing Movember a month early. Yeah, preemptive strike against Movember. But yeah, it's the result of, I told my students, if Texas beat Ohio State, I'd grow a mustache and wouldn't shave a deck until the Longhorns lost the football game. Man. At 4-0 after a big win at Tennessee, I still have a mustache. Look at that. Happy Jalen Duren day to everyone who celebrates. Today is the deadline at 1159 p.m. So about 14 hours from right now for him to sign his qualifying offer before the Pistons can pull it or vaporize it. It's 10 a.m. Eastern. I have heard no indications that the Pistons intend to strike any agreement to extend this October 1st deadline. That could, of course, change. This is Jalen Duren's. This is Jalen Duren's real leverage, this threat that expires potentially in 14 hours. If there is no deal in the next 14 hours, if he decides to not sign this allegedly, and from what I've heard, this is accurate, five-year, $200 million contract, then negotiations can continue without the threat of him taking the qualifying offer. And that is an interesting universe to live in. Not a lot of guys have done that, holding out at the training camp potentially. We shall see. Not much. Much more to say about this that's already been said. The day is here, and we shall see what happens, Kirk Goldsberry. Yeah, and I think you and I agree on what should happen. And if we were representing Jalen Duren, I think we would reach the point where we just take the money. It's not a small amount of money for a 22-year-old basketball player that struggled mightily in the playoffs. Might not be the max he can make, but I think it's a heck of a deal for a young center in an NBA that's currently obsessed with guards and perimeter skill. Stay in the East, because, you know, my big questions for the Western Conference, like my big holistic questions for the Western Conference have been, A, if anyone were to unseed one of the incumbent top six West teams from last year, who would it be? Rob Mahoney and I debated that last week. And the other one is, if we get to April and there is a team that we say, wow, okay, we've gotten all the way here, this team actually has maybe even a little more. And a puncher's chance to push the Spurs and the Thunder in the playoff series. Who would that team be? I've answered that question with Rob Mahoney or tried to. His answer was Minnesota. My answer was actually maybe Houston. Do you have an answer to that question before we pivot East? I think I would take Houston. I think with Fred Van Fleet and Kevin and all their pieces, that's the best answer if they're healthy. Minnesota, I'm just not a believer in A, losing Nas Reed, which has been underreported. And what? That's going to do the vibes there. And B, I'm not a believer in the Lomelo ball play. So I would take Houston, maybe a very healthy Denver if the injury gods shine brightly down on Colorado this season. The other options, of course, would be the Lakers. And that really kind of exhausts the options, honestly. I know. I think the East is deeper than the West, which is something you and I haven't said on many of these podcasts over the years. So here's my holistic question for the East. And it is a question that I. I put out as a poll question yesterday to maybe 30 executives and coaches around the Eastern Conference. Just that wasn't a huge poll. It's not 100. It's not. But it's not five. I just was like, let me see what these people think. And I polled you on the same question. The question is this. If you had to pick an Eastern Conference team to make the NBA finals, not win it, just make the finals, win three playoff series. That's what it takes to make the finals. Duh. And you were barred from pickings. You were barred from picking the Knicks. And for the people that I sent the poll to, you were barred from picking your own team. Who would you pick to make the finals? Kirk, I pose the question to you. You don't have your own team, so you can pick anybody but the Knicks. And then I will share the very rudimentary results from my league poll. I think the safe picks are Philly and Boston. I think the intriguing pick is Indiana. I think other people are going to land on Atlanta, Detroit, and Cleveland. But Zach Lowe, for the interest, I think. I smell it. I smell it. I smell it coming. I smell it coming. I know it's coming. Let's go. You know what I want to say, and I'm not going to say. I'm going to say the Philadelphia 76ers. The last eight years, LeBron James has competed in the Eastern Conference. He has went to the NBA finals. This is one of the deepest teams. We've ever seen. They beat the Celtics in the playoffs last year, and now they have Jalen Brown and LeBron James. So I think that's a safe pick. I'm eager to talk this through with you because I wanted to say Indiana. But what say you, Zach Lowe? All right. First of all, I'm going to call you out right now on your LeBron H-Trade Eastern Conference trips to the finals. He hasn't been in the Eastern Conference since 2018. So this is a version of the. Well, the last time Kawhi was in Toronto, he stayed healthy the entire year. So therefore, the transitive property says he'll stay healthy. That was seven years ago and zero long playoff runs ago for Kawhi Leonard. So I'm dismissing your fake stat. It's out of the podcast. So with this issue, I'm like Fox Mulder. I trust no one. I trust no one in this entire group of teams to win three playoff series. I'm in agony. Because I feel awful every time I start to pick one of these teams. Like that's the that's my answer to the question. I feel nauseous like I'm going to vomit out the window of a car. I have major trust issues. And so but I will share with you the results of my informal poll. And again, teams where people were not allowed to vote for their own teams. There was one team that was the overwhelming winner of the poll. Like I would say I didn't track the responses. I'm not the freaking pollster. I'm not Gallup. OK. I would say a majority of respondents, a majority, like a slight majority, but a flat out majority picked this team as the answer to the question. Who would you guess it would be? Well, if it's not the Philadelphia 76ers, I think you would take Joe Missoula and the Boston Celtics. It was Boston. And I was actually shocked at how at the level of optimism for Boston as a finals team. And I think when I when I followed up and interrogated my question, my respondents, a lot of it was simply based on the fact that they felt safest about Boston alongside the Knicks being a top three seed in the conference when the regular season is over. In other words, like part of the bet on a team to make the finals in this conceit I'm constructing is like, I hope they don't have to come through the play-in. I hope they don't have to be on the road in every single playoff series. And everyone's seen some downside scenarios where like, yeah, Philly could be, I saw windy yesterday, took a lot of shit for saying he doesn't think Philly is a guaranteed top 16. I think the people who are giving windy shit for that are either a crazy Sixers fans. God bless them. I love Philly fans and be just haven't sat down and looked at the, how deep the Eastern conferences, there's no universe in which Philadelphia we're lying on a center who plays half of every season at best. And a 41 year old guy who is the best passer on the team by a country mile to sort of hold it all together as the glue. There's, there's no universe in which they're guaranteed a top six seat, a top six seat in the Eastern conference. I actually think they will be one of the top six teams, but that's not a crazy take by windy. So I think a lot of the Boston optimism was like, look in a sea of unknowns. I know this is a 50 win team. That's going to be a top three seed. So I'll start there. I just don't, you know, and I think a lot of it was also Derek white will have a bounce back shooting year with less of a play making load on him. 1 : Yeah. 0 : Is he going to have less of a playmaking load on him? It's not like Paul George is like a playmaker playmaker, but Tatum is back Tatum optimism year to Peyton Pritchard, like another level breakout potential Mitchell Robinson adding another ingredient as a rim running offensive rebounding menace to society at center, all the young guys who go Shireman Walsh, et cetera, getting better. And just like Missoula ball works in the regular season. I don't, 1 : I'm, 0 : I'm less optimistic about them as a playoff finals team, but I just could be, I could be blinded by the downgrade in sort of ISO scoring, mid range scoring from jail and Brown to Paul George. And just like, why am I trusting that Paul George is going to be healthy for the entire season and three playoff rounds? Am I really going to trust him? Am I that confident? Mitchell Robinson is going to stay healthy for the entire season and three playoff rounds. And the other stuff is like, it's a lot to ask of those. 1 : Those young guys. But I, Boston was the overwhelming winner. Would you like to hear other results? 0 : Yeah, of course. I love this poll, by the way. Or do you have more Boston thoughts you want to get off? 1 : Well, I think, you know, to defend our friends in Philadelphia with the injury stuff to Embiid, I think that's fair, but you know who else hasn't finished the last two playoffs in healthy shape is Jason Tatum. And I hate to be that guy, but obviously Mitchell Robinson has injury concerns. Obviously Paul George has age and injury concerns, but I think at this point, it's also fair to levy. Those on Jason Tatum. I also think that the Celtics are a wins machine. Missoula ball is going to work. They're going to get to that top three seat. I share that. But I think it is unfortunately true. The, the, the injury concerns that we're going to put on LeBron James and Joel Embiid can equally be placed on the Boston Celtics at this point. 2 : A couple other variables before we go on to the rest of the poll. A lot of people brought up the ability to make an in-season trade as a key factor here. And Boston has picked up a decent amount of trade assets now from the jail and Brown trade. A lot of these teams, actually, most of them are hard capped at the first apron because of off season stuff they did, which makes making trades difficult. Boston has the most breathing room by far among these teams are like 10 million under the first apron. And so that gives them flexibility. But the other thing you have to look at is like, all right, what's the matching salary. And Boston has houses $11 million contract. And Mitchell Robinson's $15 million contract. And after that, it's like huge contracts and small contracts. So it's not like you gotta have the midsize salaries to really do that. Okay. The rest of the poll, I would say loosely behind Boston, there was like a three-way tie. I would give or take, give or take again, I'm not the Gallup organization. Um, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not an exit. I'm not doing an exit polling. You know, I'm not doing any of that. 3 : And the three teams that came up the next most often were Philadelphia. All the skepticism is there obviously about what we talked about. And then a little, then somewhat surprising, maybe Toronto. Wow. And there was more Miami optimism than I expected. There was, there's a healthy respect for like, Hey, look, I know not a lot of pull up jump shooting there, like playmaking on the, in the perimeter positions. How's that gonna work? But those two big guys and the playmaking and rim attacking that Giannis brings to the table, plus their defensive infrastructure, plus their coach and Rick Carlisle was the other coach that came up a lot when I asked about playoff coaching, but SPO, like there was a healthy amount of, of respect there for those teams. And I will say, uh, Indiana came next as like, just some stray Indiana. Like, Hey, remember they were in the finals not long ago, not one person, not one picked Cleveland or Detroit. I thought that was notable as well. : That's notable for sure. And no Atlanta, who I think has a case to be considered here. If we're gonna list all those teams, we just listed. Remember Atlanta finished last season, about as hot as anybody in the NBA. They beat the next twice in the playoffs. They're getting better. They added a rookie point guard. And I think Jalen Johnson and that core, you can argue is getting better. Quinn Quinn Snyder having this full off season to really prepare for, I wouldn't put them as my pick here. Uh, but I think that's like an under the radar one for consideration, Indiana, let's just, and you and I talked about this deep in the summer, um, desert of content, but like 16 months ago, they were in game seven of the finals, you know, 17 months ago, they were beating the Knicks in, in, in the NBA playoffs. And I know it's a different team and I know there's valid concerns about the health of their best player. I know they have a strong front court star. Um, but man, I feel like it's a little disrespectful that they're not even closer to the top here considering what we just saw from them, uh, not too long ago, Zach. So, you know, I think Indiana, I don't wanna spoil anybody's over unders, but like I, I have them slotted in at three or four this season in the Eastern conference. Speaker 3 : I think Indiana's track record is better playoff team than regular season team. And I think there's that's people are doubling down on that in terms of regular season win totals with, with Halliburton coming back from the Achilles and like, is it gonna take him 20 or 30 games to look like Tyrese Halliburton, the straw that stirs the entire drink in Indiana. But I, I I'm optimistic about the Pacers. Uh, I'm optimistic about the zoo bots fit. I think they're starting five is rock solid. Uh, we can, we're gonna go through each team and talk about like concerns. So I don't wanna spoil that part. Um, and they also, like for a team that's made two major draft pick out the door trades in the last four to five years with Siakam and zoo bots, they have a lot of trade assets. Like they only have one more, the Siakam deal is over for them. And they have that 29 pick that was supposed to go the Clippers that now just goes into outer space. Um, and other than that, like they're free and clear to trade all their picks and all their swaps. And they have a bunch of midsize salaries. They're hard capped at the first apron, but they have like a two and a half million dollar cushion. So I, I think your optimism, uh, is on point there. Should we go team by team and just go and I will make my pick at the end, but I, you might have to talk me through it. I, I like need counseling when I start thinking about like showing faith in the, it's like, it's I'm like Indiana Jones in, uh, in the holy grail. Like just, I have to walk over the bridge that I can't see. Like, that's how I feel like picking one of these teams to make the finals shout out Indiana Jones, by the way, what a delightful first three movies I've not seen. Oh man. Are there two more or, or, or are there four or five? I think there's four. Uh, I, I'm no expert, but I think they came back with a four. Well, there's definitely crystal skull, which I did not see. Um, the river Phoenix one is three or four. I forget. I think that's three, right? I don't, I don't even know. Um, Sean Connery is three. I don't know what, where river Phoenix is involved, but anyway, um, okay, let's go, let's go team by team and express your concerns. Let's just start with New York. We're grandfathering them in. Speaker 3 : If I had to pick, if I had to tear it out of just like regular season, faith level in the regular season to be in the top six, we're setting aside the playoffs, like my first tier. And then I would be New York, Boston and Cleveland. I actually think despite all the concerns about Cleveland, which are fair, I think their talent level is so strong that regular season, I am not worried about them like having a downside of like, oh, they're seventh in the East. Then I have a gap and we'll talk about that gap. Uh, the next tier of teams, what is your concern? If you had to pick a concern for the Knicks, what would it be? Yeah, I would, I would say it's not a typical sort of Goldsberry analytical thing. It's the fact that no team has won the NBA title twice in a row this decade, nobody's gotten, um, out of the East in consecutive years for a while. Um, and I think the loss of Mitchell Robinson and the fatigue factor is there because I love this core group. I love it, Zach. And I think one of the reasons you gave me this homework assignment for this podcast is there is New York in a basketball sense. And then there's a bunch of other that have a fatal flaw. I can't point to the departure of Mitchell Robinson and say, oh my God, that's it. This is a core where I think OGN and OB really stepped up. Josh Hart really stepped up. Obviously Jalen Brunson demonstrated. He is the most clutch player in the NBA right now. So I don't have many concerns there, especially compared to what you're going to have me do with these other teams in the Eastern conference right now. Speaker 2 : I'm a little bit more concerned about the downgrade for Mitchell Robinson to Andre Drummond. Yeah, that's fair. Drummond is a, is a very, is a great offensive rebounder. Mitchell Robinson is like an extra terrestrial offensive rebounder. Like he was an offense all by himself when he was on the floor and their offensive rebounding dipped to like below average levels. When he was off the floor, Drummond Drummond will get you to above average, but he doesn't get you to extra terrestrial and defensively the rim particular. Speaker 2 : Speaker 0 : I'm a little bit more concerned about the downgrade for Mitchell Robinson to Andre Drummond. Yeah, that's fair. Mitchell Robinson is a very, is a very, is a great offensive rebounder. Mitchell Robinson is a very, is a great offensive rebounder. Mitchell Robinson is a very, is a very, is a very, is a great offensive rebounder. Numbers are not even comparable. So I'm a little bit worried about that, but it's just backup center and they still, maybe, maybe they address it in some way throughout the season, Boston. I think we kind of hit on our concerns, right? I don't have much, much to add to what we already said. Speaker 2 : Yeah. I think their front court is pretty weak. That's the only thing I would say, and I know they got Mitchell Robinson, but compared to some of these other contenders, uh, compared to some of the best teams in the Western conference, I think it's fair to say Boston's front court, uh, is not the same as it was when it was Horford and Porzingis, uh, and the backups there. Speaker 3 : Yeah, they don't. I mean, Garza is the shooting element at the five and he's a clear third string five Keda being slotted back into a backup role, I think is healthy for them. Uh, and Robinson just health concerns, whatever he guards him beat as well as anybody in the world. And that's a, that's a, an important little thing in case they match up again, because we saw what MB did to them in the five seconds that he was healthy in the post season, he completely decimated the cells. That's fair. Yeah. Okay. Let's go Speaker 2 : To the next, the next team in my regular season success only tier. And that's Cleveland. If you had a nitpick, a concern or concerns about Cleveland in my Fox Mulder universe, where I trust no one, I don't trust the calves. What is your concern? Speaker 3 : Yeah. It's still the professor of the dark arts category. And that might be that. I mean, they've the wing depth in Cleveland has been my, my red flag with this team since like 2023. And you could say Peyton Watson is going to solve that. I need to see that Zach. Uh, but in a league where wing depth Speaker 2 : And when wing performance is very important, um, I still think that's the glaring weakness. And I say that because I love their front court, they were banged up last year and their back court deserves all the respect it gets with, with two all-stars perennial all-stars. So can their defense on the wings survive? Can their, their three and D off ball play, you know, match these other teams. Um, so I think I'm waiting to see if they can get, you know, something out of paper, Peyton Watson that is superior to the wing play they've gotten over the last few years. I heard you talking about Jalen Tyson. Now that's one of the more interesting players here. Speaker 3 : My X factor, my number one X under the radar X factor of the year, Jalen Tyson. Speaker 2 : And who saw this coming from Jalen last year, incredible breakout and gives this team more depth at that position group than I think anybody was expecting. So between Jalen Tyson and Peyton Watson, I think they have a good potential sort of answer to that question, but it's at this point in the summer or the fall, um, it's still potential to me, Zach. Speaker 3 : I flat out don't trust the calves as a playoff team. Um, and I realized they made the conference finals last year, not the most inspiring run to the conference finals. I have a ton of respect for their just sheer talent level of Mitchell Harden, Mobley Allen. And then, you know, after that we can talk about it. They just always seem to be uncertain about what their best. Speaker 2 : Combination of players is, um, what their best lineups are, how much to lean in the big direction, how much to lean in the small direction, whatever. So there's that I thought their offense, partly because they faced the lead defenses across the board in the playoffs just got so stinky and boggy and just funky and just too much dribbling too much ISO, not enough passing. And especially when you throw in the spacing issues that the Mobley Allen pairing brings. I just, I just don't have a ton of faith in their ability to get like efficient buckets all the time against great defenses. They could prove that wrong for sure. Depth. I mean, I look, I love a great Craig, Craig Proctor, Greg Proctor, Craig Porter jr. Cameo. I was Proctor Tyrese Proctor. I thought show some flashes, Mario Hazonia either more Havoc is back in the league. We'll see. I trust like two guys off their bench right now, Sam Merrill and Jalen Tyson. That's a concern. And I, you know, I, I'm not going to be breaking any news here, Kirk. I don't want to alarm people, but there's a player on this team that I really just don't trust at all in game six or game seven of the high stakes playoff series. And so I don't trust the calves. I just don't trust them. Sorry. I'm not picking them to make the finals. Okay. As if, as if you needed to hear me echo that second thought you made about James Harden, but yeah, perfectly said I didn't name names. Kirk, you, you named an aims. I didn't just in case anybody's driving and got distracted. We were talking about James Harden's inability to win big playoff games there. Folks. What's James Harden's middle name. People only do the middle name stick when they're really talking them up. Like perk would be like LeBron Ramon James or whatever it is. We should do it for, we should do it for guys when we're talking them down to, we should have a middle name, use the full like parents, like we're parents, James, Edward Harden jr. It's time for you to finally step up in a big game and the play. He has stepped up here and there in the playoffs, but I'm talking about like an elimination game in a late round series. Okay. My next tier of like faith level to avoid the top six apologies to Atlanta does not include them. I think you're higher on the Hawks than I am include six teams, Detroit, Philadelphia, Toronto, Miami, Indiana, and Orlando is in this tier for me. And you can throw Atlanta. And if you want, okay, you can throw Atlanta and if you want, okay, you can throw Atlanta. And if you want, okay, let's just go one by one Fox Mulder concerns, fatal flaws, Detroit Pistons, Kirk Goldsberry. What are you concerned about the Jalen? Excuse me, folks, the Jalen during vibes, I would say is my number one concern. My number two concern is the loss of Tobias Harris for an offense that was already pretty one dimensional. And you can try to talk me into anything they did this summer to correct that fatal flaw from last year. I don't buy it. So between the cultural sort of sketchiness of this during situation, and the loss of Tobias, I don't think this team is gonna be able to score enough to beat the other better teams in the Eastern conference. The spacing issues. Well, well known the chemistry issues. We'll see. I'm concerned about their rim defense without Isaiah Stewart, who just, they just kind of gave away. Yeah. And they're, they're both, both the amount of shots they allowed at the rim and the opponent shooting percentage on those shots was like night and day with Stewart on the floor versus off the floor. They, they have shot, shooting, but a lot of their shooting is, is, is contained in like pretty duplicative players. You know, Duncan Robinson, Isaiah, Joe, Kevin Herter, like how many of those guys are gonna be on the floor at the same time for how long? And John Collins is kind of the wild card there. They feel like a team that in letting Tobias Harris walk and replacing him with John Collins and letting Stewart dumping Stewart kind of like was like, yeah, 60 wins last year in a year where a third of the league was tanking. And I'm not sure we're really that ready yet. And we'll maybe we'll take a small step back to take a bigger step forward. They do have all their picks to trade in a bunch of trade assets. Let's do Philadelphia concerns. And then we'll take a break. We already aired all our Philadelphia concerns. They're obvious. Right. And actually kind of like, I kind of think they did a pretty good job building out their depth with Simon's and Dean Wade and KCP backup center. I mean, people want to nitpick at it because of how much time and B will miss, but the Bona hook porty and you slide Barlow up now and then trio, like that's not bad. I like Justin Edwards. I have a soft spot for him. We'll see what file on brings. Like I did the concerns for me are just obviously health and age with in LeBron respectively. And I'm a little, like, I'm a little interested in where this team can get to defensively. Like, can they be the 10th 11th best defense in the league with Embiid mobility? They were a bad rebounding team last year and not much better with them beat on the floor. That's about it. Right. I don't think there's any, we're breaking any ground there. Yeah. I think the biggest, biggest red flag is defense. And if you look at MBA history, the way you and I have through the Dean Oliver stats, if you're not a top half defense, you're in big trouble. And I, I, if I had to predict the defensive rating ranking of the Philadelphia 76ers right now, I think I would choose 19, 20. I don't think there's a lot of young, energetic defenders on that side. And then on offense, I would just add the cliche. There's only one basketball thing. That's less of a concern for me. You're going to hear that a lot this preseason, but for me, both the Lakers and the Sixers, they have that same concern. I was like, show me the defense. Cause I don't think it's going to show up. Speaker 3 : I think the offense is going to be fun. Obviously there'll be some, some things to work out. Like I think Cleveland, frankly, with the Peyton Watson fit, I think that's going to be clunky for like 30 games as they figure that one out. I think Philly has a pretty first world problem with the one ball problem. And I also think like, yeah, it's going to be fun. I think it's going to be fun. I think people are underrating the, the, just the, and this is why I have them in this tier. And I would pick them as a top 16. I think the maxi edge comb, Jalen Brown, like their durability as a trio that's a pretty stable floor if Embiid and LeBron miss maybe 10% more games than you would expect if those three play 75 games a piece at heavy minutes that's a pretty stable floor yeah the Sixers like I I get what Wendy is saying and I don't think it's a crazy take that they're not guaranteed a top six spot I'm pretty confident they'll finish in the top six all right let's take a break and we'll do some concerns concern trolling for the rest of the team before this there's this as you celebrate the game take a deeper look at its roots the people grow in the grass paving the lots welding the goalposts inspecting every football the hard-working people that make every Sunday possible Carhartt is proud to outfit the crews behind the game visit carhartt.com join the trades to learn more having uncontrolled eosinophilic esophagitis or eoe can mean you're stuck in many ways like cutting your food into tiny pieces or 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goldsberry i mean you have to start with kawaii leonard and i i think kawaii leonard deserves a lot of credit as a basketball player uh we don't talk about that very much with kawaii these days but he's not going to survive the regular season he's not going to survive the post-season grind i think that is headline a b and c and without kawaii leonard i don't think that team is making a lot of noise in the playoffs that said i think they are ascendant i think they're well coached i think their defense is going to be one of the best in the eastern conference uh but on offense with the kawaii sketchiness i would put that as the big sort of weakness either you can choose offense or you can choose kawaii leonard's sort of fragility zach here is your moment that will appear in every zach low show until it is proven wrong when i say that kawaii leonard has not finished a second round playoff series since the bubble in 2020 and between that and like if when he's out i they still are pretty light on shooting like we'll see how teams guard jacoby walter we'll see what kind of if quickly has a bounce back barrett is his shot like better than expected well you know but he's more of a bulldog going to the rim than a spot-up guy that teams are scared of murray boils plus purdle as a combination is going to destroy you on the boards and be a terror defensively like can they score enough if scotty barnes doesn't become a representative three-point shooter i mean they'll score a decent amount off turnovers and and bully ball and all that but those are the concerns miami i mentioned pull up pull up jump shooting off the dribble playmaking from non-bigs uh that would be my number one concern i actually think this team has done a pretty good job building out its depth considering the resources they were left with um they act they they have a swap or two left to trade and if they amend the pick that they owe charlotte if charlotte lets them do that and there would be a price to it they could loosen up another pick to trade and they are a team that i think profiles as we're all in and if we can make one more move we'll make it so that bumps them up in my rankings they got they've got a decent amount of shooting um it's the playmaking that makes me a little bit worried and obviously they they made up for that somewhat last year with the unique offense that spo ran the no la roche no pick and rolls just iso iso iso offense that worked decently for them what's your concern about the heat yeah i think i would say the backcourt the creativity outside of janice onto takumpo i'm going to sound like a broken record but just like your kawaii stat like janice is one of my favorite players to watch and i think you can't talk about him in 2026 and 2027 without talking about injury risks um he plays such a violent game he's such a physical player violent i like that and violent is violent violence is good in the nba i like violent players there's violent violent stuff he's fun oh he's i always i've compared him to shack for years like a young shack when you look at his interior production it's as good as anything we've seen since shack um but that that that takes a toll on a body especially when playing 82 games like this so i think they did a marvelous job surrounding this questionable core after the big trade bringing clay thompson i think what i've heard from clay is really exciting um but ultimately if i had to project their their defense i think they're going to be on offense like toronto i think their defense could be top 10 maybe even top five but that offense i think is going to be 15 16 19 something like that and ultimately that profile is not going to get you to the eastern conference finals act indiana is to me the last team who really belongs in this discussion because orlando and atlanta which we can hit them winning three playoff series feels kind of unfathomable to me even though i'm kind of higher on orlando i think they're going to be on offense like toronto i think their defense could be top 10 maybe even top five but that offense i think is going to be 15 16 19 something like that and ultimately i think they're going to be on offense like toronto i think they're going to be on offense like toronto i'm a little lower on atlanta probably than consensus but like we'll talk about them i i just i have them a tier down i'm gonna i'm gonna shove orlando into the next year i just three playoff series orlando first has to win one and so do the hawks and it just feels a little far-fetched indiana's got the track record um we mentioned all the pluses and some of the concerns like halliburton's recovery from injury introducing zoo bots but what what what are your concerns if any about the pacers that we have not hit i mean you gotta start with re-acclimating tyrese halliburton as you called him the straw that stirs everything in indiana if he clicks those act and and if everybody's healthy i don't have many concerns because i've seen what i need to see um starting at the end of the the 2024-25 season um i think they really gelled and have an offensive identity this is an offense i would expect to be top five in a world where tyrese is healthy uh that's how i would expect to be top five in a world where tyrese is healthy highly i think of him and i've told you on this podcast before he is steve nash for the 2020s that's that's where i think he is he's a hyper efficient shooter off the bounce and makes everybody around him look great then you add in zoo botch and pascal siakam and rick carlisle i love this team um so i would go to the other side of the court and is this really going to be a defense that can stop a team like the knicks or the sixers or the celtics in a playoff series and that's where i'd put my concerns with the indiana pacers interesting um turner for zoo bots obviously not a direct trade but that's the indirect transaction they made um i think is a defense first trade and maybe an offensive rebounding trade that's an ingredient they haven't had and a defensive rebounding trade too like zoo will kick it ahead and get that fast break going and get the chaos machine going um at the expense of of some spacing with now siakam has to learn how to fit without a stretch five i have zero chance of winning the game i think it's going to be a defense first trade um i think it's going to be a defense first trade um i think it's going to be a defense first trade 's at the beginning of the year and then in the playoffs they they took off like a rocket ship they're an incredible shooting team like they have been when they've been rolling they like outperformed their expected field goal percentage by leaps and bounds they're an incredible shooting team from everywhere mid-range floater range threes can they can they hit that stride can they hit that rhythm again obviously halliburton went on i think probably the greatest run of crunch time shooting maybe in the history of the nba i mean i don't even think that's hyperbole in the playoffs with the game winning shots incredible run like people even forget about just game one against the thunder yeah this is just another game winner in the nba finals for tigress halliburton at almost the buzzer um my concerns would be uh i'm not concerned about the siakam thing i'm not really concerned about halliburton reacclimating other than i no team in the east can really afford to fall too far behind the top six eight ball uh in the first 25 30 games of the season i do wonder about their depth a little bit and it's it's a little bit in the eye of the beholder right like their bench unit will be mcconnell yeah kind of took a step back last year and is entering his mid-30s and um you know he was so his pugnaciousness and one-on-one scoring was like so such a critical ingredient in them sustaining when halliburton was on the bench and he and played pretty well together too uh i think jairus walker is probably leapfrogged ben shepherd kelly uber a rock solid jay huff backups center. I don't, I don't love it. I think Toppin will play a little bit more backup five for them. And I like him a lot off the bench. So it's kind of an eye of the beholder thing for them, but I don't sleep on the Pacers. Okay. The Hawks, you would put the Hawks in this conversation. I would not tell me why I am wrong. And then I will raise some Hawks concerns. Well, let's go way back to the 2026 NBA playoffs, Aglo name, all of the NBA teams that beat the Knicks more than one time in the playoffs. Yeah. Yeah. So, and, and you, you factor in, okay, the end of the regular season and they were red hot. The way we look at the game through, through offensive and defensive efficiency, they were, they were top in both those categories. So I think they ended very strong. They didn't embarrass themselves in the playoffs, which is saying something in Eastern conference that had some pretty ugly playoff series. And I just liked it. I liked the bones here. I liked the bones of Quinn Snyder's offense and him finally getting this full season without the Trey young distraction. I think this is finally the culture and the style he wants to play. I don't think there's a real weak link on the team. I think they can be a really good defense. I think that's going to be their strength. And I think they're going to be an adequate offense. I can't wait to see CJ and the rookie sort of trade rotations in, in, in the, in the backcourt. 3 : I do. There is a healthy respect for teams. And I think the Knicks would be among this group with, with traditional point guard types or smaller guard types who are the main cog in their offense. There's a healthy respect for like, fuck man, these guys can throw Alexander Walker, Daniels and Dort at our guy in turn. And like what happens when all three of those guys are on the court together? I think all, I don't, I'm not sure who Quinn has penciled in to starting five. I would probably lean to starting all three of them together and bringing CJ McCollum back off the bench, but I could see them going back and forth a little bit because of the shooting playmaking issues. I mean, Jalen Johnson is an okay, three point shooter and a really good playmaker, but there, there does become sort of a critical level of just spacing that you might not get. And you know, they make up for a lot of that with just the crazy random style of read and react random guys, screening for random guys. Hand off here, fled like they get a lot of mileage out of that defensively. The perimeter is rock solid. We'll see how the interior is with Onyeka Congo is a sort of undersized starting five. The bench is another one of these, like take it or leave it. Like some people would be pretty optimistic about, let's say CJ comes off the bench plus Kispert plus Aaron Wiggins, who I think will help them. Mo gay jock Landale, Finney Smith is here after that random series of trades that all those teams engaged in with buddy healed, et cetera. I think it's, 0 : It's okay. I mean, we'll see if Kingston Fleming's is ready to contribute or a Zuby edge of four ACE renewal. Like those are all kind of wild cards. I don't, I gotta see the depth before I really believe in it. I just think there's a lot of push pull between defense first lineups and offense first lineups. And do they find the happy medium? But I think they're look, Quinn's Quinn's a coaching guru genius. They're going to be a good team. I just three playoff series wins feels a little far fetched to me. 3 : Yeah, I think that's far fetched. I think I'm reacting more to why they're not more in the conversation. Like I think they have a much stronger case than say Orlando and I'm a huge Sean Sweeney guy. Um, but until Orlando can shoot, uh, either an adequate volume of threes, which they have been in the bottom five of for the last number of years or a decent clip at threes, which they've also been at the, it's just a, it's a deal breaker for me, but Atlanta, uh, I think they love one Jack Lawndale. And I think they, they think they have a deep team. 4 : Um, and I think their offense is correctly like a half court offense is going to be weak there, but Dyson Daniels, Lou Dort, those long arms of a Kong Wu and Johnson, they're going to get a few pick sixes, a half that I think is gonna, that's gonna make their offensive efficiency numbers overall look good enough to compete, um, for a second round, maybe a third round appearance in the Eastern conference playoffs. 3 : The grade barrier thief. Um, just one of the great throwback nicknames. 4 : When nicknames, when America used to manufacture nicknames nicknames, um, for an Australian, of course, 5 : Also one of the more stunning stats of the year last year was his three point percentage. Did it, did it eclipse 20%? I don't think it did, right? 4 : Look, it might as well have been zero, um, for the way teams guarded him, but I've heard some optimism from in that building that his stroke looks a little bit, no, it was 19%, uh, that his stroke looks a little better and they're going to encourage him to let it fly. Uh, we shall see Orlando. I mean, you just hit on, well, first of all, Atlanta. Also really well stocked with trade assets. They have all their picks. They have, I believe the lesser of new Orleans and Milwaukee's pick this year, which like that, that's a, even the lesser of that could be a pretty nice trade check. The vibe I get from them is they're not in a rush to make the wind now move, um, particularly in an East that is pretty loaded. And they, unless something really that fits perfectly comes up, they might just prefer to wait it out till the next off season or beyond. But we'll see Orlando, you hit the offense. The offense thinks every year, nobody can shoot. Nobody's ever healthy. Yes. The theoretical starting five could be awesome. We just never see it. I, I, I think this is, this is obviously the make or break year for this, the construction of this team. They've almost publicly acknowledged that the other thing that I think people are sleeping on is like Anthony black. I love Anthony black off the bench as a six man, the rest of his bench is like, what, what, what happens here? Right. If anybody gets hurt, I mean, De Silva, who's fine, he's the seventh guy and kind of fell out of their rotation in the playoffs, like, or to the fringes of it. I mean, back up center, they've got Goga and Vooch. I mean, that's fine. I've, I've liked the flashes that Noah Penda has shown. Jamal Cain had one of the dunks of the year, Jace Richardson's in year two, like they need some of those guys. Javon Carter's always like out of the rotation for 30 games comes in, fuck shit up for 10 games. And then it goes out of the rotation. Again, Jonathan, he's alive. Pretty much the best thing I can say about his basketball trajectory right now. I don't like they have six guys. I really trust his players with almost no track record of meshing together in an efficient way offensively. And after that, it's like, Oh my God, a bunch of wild cards. So I don't, if they're healthy, I think they're going to win a decent amount of regular season games, but like, to me, they don't belong in this finals conversation. 1 : I think Sean Sweeney, 1 : Was the best hire of the year. And I will put my name on the, I love Sean. I think he was a huge part of why San Antonio found a really solid defensive identity. And I think his track record in Dallas deserves a lot of respect too, on the defensive side of the court, Orlando was built to be a great defense. So I think they can improve their ultimately for me, those act, the question, and I've talked about it on your show for years now is can Paolo Banqueiro become a real, a real all NBA caliber player? Can he find offensive efficiency? Can he blend attacking the rim and choosing his spots more wisely as a jump shooter? He's beginning to trend in that West Brook in direction where I just don't trust the decision-making as a shooter and as a shot creator himself, he's a great pastor. He's a great interior score. He has a great feel for the game. Can something happen with Sean where he finally puts it together? He's got a lot of potential. Speaker 3 : And if it does, I think this team's ceiling is pretty high. That said second round of the playoffs is that ceiling for me. Speaker 4 : That's that's fair. I mean, again, they haven't won a playoff series in the 2020s, so they would take that, but that should be a win for them. And like part of this is, you know, Paolo and Franz have had to do so much heavy lifting because Suggs is hurt all the time and they don't really have a traditional point guard. Like I do think these pieces could fit decently well together better than we've seen with if they were ever like. Speaker 5 : Like Bain, I think was the right player type for them to go after they traded the farm to get him. And it hasn't paid off that much so far, but we just haven't seen it. And even if we see it, I don't know if they'll score enough. Okay. Well, now we have to circle back to the original question, Kirk, which is if I have to pick a team to make the finals from the east and I can't pick the Knicks by Fiat that I'm making up, who would I pick? Did you finalize your selection? Who are you? I'm gonna make you make an actual pick. Speaker 1 : Well, I think the first, you know, he's a dear friend, but he's dead wrong at Philadelphia. 76ers just have too many good basketball players to not be my pick in this conversation. Speaker 5 : So I hate this whole exercise. I hate that I'm making myself do this. I assigned it and I don't trust any of these teams for reasons that we have just gone through our lack of trust there. They are set up. All of them are set up to break our hearts and hurt us. And I don't, you know, I don't want to expose myself to that kind of pain, Kirk. I just don't want to do it. I've had some heartbreak in my life. I don't want it anymore, but I made myself make a pick. We went through all the concerns. Trust no one Fox Mulder in a world of trust. No one in a world where I have like pretty serious concerns about all of these teams as playoff three series winning teams. I can't believe I'm doing this, but if I'm forcing myself to pick one and I'm doing it, Speaker 1 : In that universe, I think I'm just gonna go with the team that has the, if this actually works, holy crap upside. And I'm going to pick Philadelphia against all of my better judgment. I mean, literally this is one of the only picks I've made where as I'm making it, I'm like, this is dumb. Like, why are you doing this? Is Joel Embiid going to survive three playoff rounds? You're the one who's been saying he'll never survive three playoff rounds. I think this team understands that. And we might see between Embiid and Kawhi, the first ever playoff load management plan in basketball history. And like, maybe that's what it takes. And in this conference that is this muddled again, I'm barred from picking the Knicks. I will pick the Knicks to make the finals Knicks fans. Don't worry about it. Like that's what that's going to be my pick unless something bad happens in the preseason. But I think of all of these teams, you can make cases for, I think you could make a case for Boston, which many people did. You can make a case for Toronto, which many people did. I think there is a case for Miami. I won't make it. And I think there's a case for Indiana. I can't trust Cleveland or Detroit quite enough. People will make some cases for Cleveland. I won't, but of all those teams, I'm going Philly. I can't believe it. I just, I can't believe it. Maybe your stat, your fake stats swayed me. LeBron has made the finals every year. He's been in the East since 2010. So I'm in like, let's continue Speaker 2 : The streak. Well, it's a bullshit stat. I hope that didn't influence you. I think what should influence you is maybe Jalen brown is pissed off and he is going to just make sure that this happens. And Tyrese max, he makes a jump and VJ edge call makes a jump. And Joel Embiid can be the fourth option. The ninth option. Some nights Speaker 0 : I thought you were going to say Joel Embiid, please never jump. Like, can you minimize your physical jumping for the entire regular season and fall and fall? I actually don't mind if you fall, fall on your butt and just fall. That's what you do. That's what you like to do. This is a, I'm just, I'm instantly clip it now. And how instantly I'm going to go have a drink after this pay it's 11 in the morning. I'm going to go have a shot of vodka or something after this Speaker 2 : Cheers. But I think you framed the exercise this way for a reason. And I would wrap it up with that. The New York Knicks are the most sort of comprehensively sound team on this side of the NBA. They deserve the ultimate respect for winning the NBA championship and blasting through the Eastern conference. Speaker 0 : Playoffs. And they really haven't changed much. You can say Mitchell Robinson this or whatever, but like there is the New York Knicks in a drop-off. I think that's fair to say. Speaker 2 : Okay. Can we do some rapid fire stuff before I let you get out of here and teach your eager beaver students? Okay. Awards picks. I've done all of them except MVP rookie of the year and defensive player of the year. We will save MVP for next week. Let's start rookie of the year. Who is your rookie of the year? Pick Kirk Goldsberry. Speaker 0 : I think there are, um, hold on. I'm getting my notes. It's Cam Boozer and it's not close as a nerd. I think all of the NBA draft model guys, they were lathered up when, when this guy's stats came out and like, Oh my God, it's Cam Boozer. And I did a little research for you to justify my pick. He's not going to be the one I want to watch the most, but Zach Lowe, let me ask you this question. And I got stats to back up my answer. If you had to project Cam Boozer stats this year, just points and rebounds, what would you, what would you land on? Speaker 3 : Uh, let's go, let's go 20 and 10 right off the bat. Here's the here. I'll go even hotter than this. I think Cam Boozer is going to be in the fringe all-star conversation way through the season. Speaker 0 : Here's the stat I looked up for you. I looked at the last 10 guys to average 18 and eight. I came down to 18 and eight guys, rookies. Cam's going to do that. And if you think that too, consider this eight of the last 10 guys to do that one rookie of the year, five of the last five have done it. Okay. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. Speaker 3 : I think the top rookies have done that. Their names, Victor, women, Yama, Carl Anthony towns, Blake Griffin, Elton brand, and Tim Duncan. Those are the last five guys to go 18 and eight as a rookie. Those are huge numbers. And I will eagerly watch all these other top rookies that we're going to talk about. But for me, it's Cam Boozer. Speaker 0 : Yeah. I mean, look, the first four picks are all like going to be sensational to watch. AJ demand. So just, he has to live in this world where his team's not going to be very good. I think they could be decent, a play in team if things break right, but he's going to be the third option. And how is that going to work? Caleb Wilson is going to have all the touches he wants in a go, go super fast offense. He's going to put up numbers. I don't know how efficient they're going to be. And I don't know how good the bulls are going to be. Obviously the Grizzlies are not going to be very good, but I think they're going to be better than people expect. And I think Cam Boozer as a big man who can shoot and pass is actually going to be decently efficient. Like I don't think he's going to be one of these 18 and eight, but he should 42% as a big guy. Maybe I'm wrong. Darren Peterson, again, like complicated ecosystem for him with three established star and all-star level players around him. But I think he's going to be awesome. The other guys that I looked at, I think I would probably put Braden berries next. I think he's going to get all you can eat in Milwaukee. I loved him in my just like brief dabbling in the draft. I loved him in summer league. I think he's going to be good. McHale brown, Jr. Darius a cuff. And that's pretty much the entire rookie of the year. I mean, a cup, just cause he's going to get the ball a ton. Keaton Walker. I don't think we'll start right off the bat for the Clippers and the axle land aboard. Even if he does start, he's just not going to put up the traditional kind of rookie of the year stuff. So I'm with you. Cam Boozer is my pick. Wow. Okay. Next one is the assignment was defensive player of the year. If Victor women Yama does not reach the 65 game threshold, because if he does, I think we all would agree, he's going to win defensive player of the year. I narrowed my field down to seven candidates that I will not name yet. Who was your pick for the non-Wemby defensive player of the year? I'll go with a list of three. I think Chet Holmgren and Rudy go bear are clearly a part. Like there's this tier with Wemby chat and Rudy. And I think Wemby deserves to be far and away number one. So in a world where he doesn't get to 65 games, that would suck as a Spurs guy, a Chet Holmgren, a Rudy deserve to be there. This is a point I'm sort of increasingly passionate about for this award. Zach is that it should be somebody who protects the basketball hoop and gets rebounds. These are two of the most outsized impacts. If you look at the best defenses in the league, they have a guy that does that. And, and Chet and Rudy both do that. Now Chet's Rudy rebounding numbers are a little lower. He ranked 21st in rebounding last year, but he plays next to Hartenstein a lot. And that, that takes a lot of those rebounds away. Here's a couple of things. I think Chet Holmgren and Rudy, they're both great players. I think they're both great players. Here's my long shot stat. And it's a player who's currently 16th or 17th best odds to win it. But he's also a top five rim protector and a top five rebounder in the NBA coming into this year. And for those reasons, my friends in Portland should be excited. Donovan Klingon, I think is the dark horse candidate. Again, I'm a man who loves rim protection and rebounding for this award. So Donovan Klingon currently plus 15,000 rebounds. And 15 000 zach on the fan duel odds and way below a lot of guys who i think have less of a chance but donovan cling is a name to watch here if you were single kirk and you were on the apps whatever apps there are i'm a man who loves rim protection would be which should be high up on your dating profile in the event that you were single you are not you're happily married with a family um great great phrase not as great as mets gm david stearns saying uh an instantly iconic line i don't know if you saw that that some of the transactions they made in the off season before this disastrous season created the uh the potential for quote an uncapped downside scenario never heard that one before if i had a fantasy baseball team i would instantly change its name to uncapped downside scenario what a just hold on we're not i don't i have an answer to this i want to ask you which nba team coming into the up this upside uh this upcoming season has the highest uncapped downside scenario you know there's only one answer to this question i hope you have the same answer it's been the answer for 17 of the last 25 years in the nba and it's the sacramento kings who might as well change their name to the sacramento uncapped downside scenarios but did you have a different selection well i was looking at quality teams like the mets had real high hopes coming into this season i see so i i will reframe the question okay as so with that understood i would say the minnesota timberwolves have an uncapped downside scenario there's a lot of personality uh there's less naz read uh there's more lamello ball uh and there's a there's a bunch of uh potential what is it uncapped downside that's a hard thing to remember zach low i i was gonna say that's a hard thing to say i can't say philly because i just picked them as my whatever team and i said that as long as those three guys are healthy maxi edgecomb jalen brown i actually think their downside scenario is capped yeah speaking um i'm tempted to say detroit only because i can see a world in which they drop from like 60 to 48 wins um yeah but that's still capped at a decently high level um i don't see i hate i hate to even say this you're making me look at teams that have expectations i said this last week i think the warriors are at risk of missing the play and like just straight up missing the play and i don't know if i'll pick them but you know i mentioned the top six and i would right now put portland phoenix and utah above the warriors which would slot them in at 10th and then just open the door to like If any of these other teams overperforms, your downside scenario is uncapped. So who are you picking, Chet? So ultimately, my pick, if it's not Wemby, is going to be Rudy Gobert, the other French guy. So here were my – I lied. I had eight names highlighted for this award. Chet gets, I think, maybe unfairly penalized by the defensive infrastructure around him, but Dort is now elsewhere. Bam just always – just never gets enough love in this awards race. He's always like, yeah, I'll put him in the fifth guy in the first team all defense. Both the Thompson twins, OG Ananobi, Rudy Gobert, Evan Mobley. He did win it relatively recently. And Scotty Barnes. Those are my eight finalists for this fake non-Wemby defense player of the year. Chet's the safe pick, I think. We know they're going to have like a top two defense in the NBA. And he'll be the best big man defender on it. I am going to go out of the box and pick Scotty Barnes as my non-Wemby defensive player of the year. I thought he was sensational last year and hit another level in the playoffs. And if Kawhi relieves him and Emmanuel quickly relieves him of a little bit of like I've got to do so much heavy lifting and it's like physical and grimy and it takes a lot out of me, I think this guy could be like four stocks a game, a great rim protection numbers, switch across every position. Raptors finishing the top four in defense. I can see a Scotty Barnes defense player of the year. Okay. So I'm going to pick Scotty Barnes. I love Scotty Barnes. And one of the coolest things I could say about LeBron James at his absolute apex is I think he could guard anybody else in the NBA. And that is, they get a very big compliment from the fastest point guard to the biggest, big LeBron at his peak. And I think that's where I think Scotty's defensive strength is, is he can almost hang with the biggest bigs and the fastest guards. He's so long, so strong, willing defender. I could see that happening. Again, I'm going to prioritize guys that are affecting paint production by the opponent and getting a lot of rebounds. But if, if you're a person who really values that versatility, that's a very valid pick. I think. Just for the record. And to be clear, we're both picking Victor to win. If he flips his 65 games, correct? Oh yeah. I think the best is yet to come with Victor's defense, which is insane. Can we do a couple more rapid fire things? Yeah, let's do it. Did you see the points of emphasis video for the year on push-offs? Yeah, I did. And I saw it on yeah, the paddle move and I saw it on the, the, the, the screens. And then there was another one on flops. They said, right? Yes. I was lucky enough to see a Monty McCutcheon in-person presentation of this. And uh, there's, there's a very black and white difference between the full extension ones, where the arm comes out all the way that's going to be called every time. That's easy. I get that. And the ones when that's not, they are trying to, uh, create this, um, discussion point around the phrases firming up versus being too forceful. It's the four Fs firming up forceful, full extension. And another F that I can't, I can't remember firming up and forceful is the gray area where they're like, if you just use your forearm to firm up your defender, to like get him, to get them all balanced, to like feel him where he is. Maybe feel is the other word actually. Um, the other F word, um, not fucking confusing feel. Um, if you're just firming up and you don't fully extend, that's fine. But if you don't fully extend and you are too forceful, you've gone beyond firming up. That's going to be called an offensive foul. And let me tell you for the life of me, Kirk Goldsberry, you can show me all the clips. I don't see any difference between firming up and being forceful. As long as there's not a full extension, I think it's made up and arbitrary. I don't understand it. I think they're trying to address a problem that infuriated fans. I would expect a lot of fans to be like, they like firming up versus forceful. What does that mean? I don't, I don't get it. And it's still going to be confusing, but yes, all for penalizing flops more. Let's bring back flop. Penalties. Yeah. But that was also the most phallic, uh, eighth grade giggling, uh, conversation in the history of the Zach Lowe show, whatever you just did there with the forest. But I, I think this is a huge thing. I would say like the idea that you can use your off arm to push a pro a player away is a clear violation in every other basket. What if you're just firming up? What if you're just firming up, Kirk? I know I'm feeling up or whatever it is, but it is shout out to Monty McCutcheon for, for bringing out the eighth graders and all of us, I would say this has become a problem in the NBA and I'm glad they're taking it on. And I think there's a number of players that are doing it. And, and I said, should be doing it. This is a smart way to get space on offense. If they're not going to call it that said, if you do it in FIBA basketball, if you do it in college basketball, these would be called violations. Um, I think it's a unique problem to the NBA and I hope they get it right. I'm a little. Skeptical that this will be called uniformly across the league by different officiating crews that naturally are going to interpret this a little bit differently for different players. And so it could be chaotic, but that said, let's try to get this right. I think offensive perimeter players have been given too much grace over the last 15 years in this league, starting with a three point revolution, but they're creating a lot more contact than defensive players, which is completely different than the way we grew up watching this. Speaker 2 : And I think it's time to correct that a little bit, Zach. So I hope that they get this right with the four Fs. You just said something that is important for me. Um, you said the phrase in this league, one of my missions for the next year is going to be to eradicate in this league as an add on people use it all the time. Like in this league, you gotta do that. I'm not singling you out. I do it too. I want to have me. And my guests were like an electric dog, shock collar, that if you stay in this league for no reason, like we all know the league we're talking about in this league or in the NBA, you get a shock on live on the podcast. And I think TV broadcast game play by play and analysts should, should be subject to the same rule in the national basketball association. Then you get a double, then you're just yanked off the stage. Like with one of the canes from the Muppet show, if you've through the whole national basketball association, uh, I was a couple of more things. I'll let you go. I was very sad about something. Speaker 3 : This week. Uh, and it was the Dennis Haskins who played Mr. Belding on saved by the bell passed away. Were you aware of this news? Speaker 4 : No, I was, I w I had spent a lot of times that I want to say 7:35 AM, uh, watching saved by the bell on TBS as a younger person, a great show, uh, for, for us. I did not know that. Um, he was always getting Zach Morris. He was always catching him. And Zach was always trying to get Paul fast went on Mr. Belding. He wasn't having it. Speaker 3 : You just described the entire arc of say, by the bell in one sentence that and Zach and Slater fighting over Kelly Kapowski, uh, which no one really, well, I guess Zach ends up winning in the end. I think they get married in some movie universes. Uh, I here's my Belding story, my Dennis Haskins story. So, you know, flying, flying New York to LAX, which I do a lot, there's like an 80% chance of famous person is going to be on your flight in first class. And, uh, most of those famous people experienced a different airport ecosystem than you and I do Kirk. They're immediately ushered off the plane into like secret corridors where to no one can find them. And I understand why I once was on a flight with Tim Robbins who got off the flight and was immediately somehow people had figured out that Tim Robbins was on the flight and met him with Shawshank redemption posters that they wanted him to sign. And he like, couldn't get out of the airport. So I understand, I understand the, the secret, the secrecy and all that. I once saw Dennis Haskins in LAX and the degree of, and he's Speaker 4 : Like not experienced. Speaker 1 : The celebrity ecosystem. He's walking through the airport and the degree of glee of everyone from the ages of like 30 to 55 was as if Tom Cruise had walked through LAX, people are shouting building, building is here. And like a lot of people who get known for one role on a silly kid show, which is what saved by the bell really was. And I loved it. I think like they would get tired of just people calling them Belding and not Dennis Haskins, the actor. Speaker 4 : He was like, anyone want a photo? I'm going to call me Belding. Call me Dennis. I don't care. I almost wanted to go up to him and get a photo, but I didn't want to bother him. I love Mr. Belding. I love Dennis Haskins, RIP. And the second thing I will say is with the elimination of the Boston Red Sox, I assume your beloved at the hands of an objectively evil empire, the low family will now be throwing it's American league allegiance behind the Cleveland guardians. Speaker 1 : Uh, because they have not won the world series in a million years. So we are shifting our allegiance, uh, to the guardians. Our national league allegiance will remain with the Milwaukee brewers unless and until they are eliminated. Do you have any allegiances in baseball? Speaker 4 : I just want to say the most impressive organization in pro sports right now at a time when billionaires are cheating and giving players extra money and in Manchester city and allegedly in the LA Clippers, um, the Tampa bay, rays are the most impressive organization in sports. They do more with less than any other team. I don't know the specifics, but their payroll is fractions. of what the LA Dodgers or the New York Yankees are doing. You can say the Mets. It's fine. It's fine. It's good. It's okay. And if it weren't for their ugly AF stadium that I hate watching baseball play out in, I would be a huge Rays supporter. But that said, I'm still going to root for the Rays. I think it would be wonderful for nerds everywhere if they could really moneyball the heck out of this thing and somehow win the championship with that payroll. Especially if they're not smacking a garbage can in the back halls of the freaking stadium, Astros. Astros took a tough L to the Pope's team. By the way, the Pope has entered the fray, sending a letter to the Chicago White Sox. So a lot of people are calling them the team of destiny, the Chicago White Sox. They have the Pope on their side. I mean, that'll keep the Reinstorfs distracted into training camp when they remember that they own another team in Chicago. Yeah, Guardians, Brewers, and. Kirk Goldsberry, you've got to go teach a class. Thank you for your time and your insight. As always, you were on the Bill Simmons pod this week as well, talking about Jalen Duren and other media day tidbits. Lie detectors, only media day. Oh, lie detectors, like another shock. Did you have a shock collar? Were you zapping people? No, we detected the biggest lies, and we thought either Tim Connolly or Ty Lue had the biggest lie. Tell me what they were. I didn't see their quotes. Bill pulled these quotes. Ty Lue was saying, there's no place I'd rather be, right now, than coaching. Yeah, that's definitely a lie. I mean, I could think of, even non-NBA, I'd rather be lots of different places. That's a 10 out of 10. What did Tim Connolly say? Tim Connolly said essentially the same thing. I'm happy here in Minnesota, amidst all those rumors that he was going elsewhere, and Bill and I both called a little BS on that, but it's a wait and see if this LaMelo thing really clicks. Yeah, those were the big ones, and then I think Luca saying nice things about LeBron, and it's sad to see him go. We'll call him out on that. It's a great listen for those of you who need another podcast to listen. Bill was in fine form. Well, there's no place I'd rather be, Kirk Goldsberry, than sitting here at my desk, looking at you in a Zoom window with your mustache. Thank you for your time, and we'll see you around the block. Thank you, Zach. Have a great day. And now we'll bring in Joanna Robinson to let me yell and scream about the New York Times Top 100 TV list and recommend shows for me. That's good. Before this. There's this. The people grow in the grass, pave in the lots, weld in the goalposts, inspecting every football. Having uncontrolled eosinophilic esophagitis or EOE can mean you're stuck in many ways, like cutting your food into tiny pieces or stuck chewing food for a long time. Dupixent dupilumab, a prescription medicine for patients one year and older weighing at least 33 pounds, can help with that. It's a breakthrough treatment that can reduce inflammation in the esophagus and improve swallowing. How about this? Dupixent is not a steroid. It proactively treats EOE so you can get ahead of it. Severe allergic reactions, including skin reactions, can occur. Get help right away if you have trouble breathing or wheezing or swelling of your face, mouth, tongue, or throat. Tell your doctor of new or worsening joint aches and pain or a parasitic infection or asthma. Don't change or stop other treatments without talking to your doctor. Feeling stuck with EOE? Start treating with Dupixent. Talk to your gastroenterologist or allergist today about Dupixent. Learn more at dupixent.com or call 1-844-DUPIXENT. Coming up. Look who it is. What a delight. Joanna Robinson, Prestige TV, House of R, so nerdy on that podcast. I can't understand anything they're talking about. Joanna, nothing gets people angrier than a list. And the New York Times, with a bunch of collaborators, voters, I was not approached to vote. I don't know if you were approached to vote. Did the top 100 television shows of the 21st century, a line of demarcation chosen in part to just for its clean, the Sopranos doesn't count, that debuted in the 90s, has to debut from 2000 on, The Simpsons doesn't count, all of that. I'm fired up. I have a lot of very uneducated takes. I listened to you and Rob Mahoney, very adorable segment on Prestige TV, where you tried to guess each other's 10 favorite shows of the last, whatever, 26 years since 2000. I did a really bad job. Rob won. Rob won. I wrote down a list on paper of both of your guesses. And there's one column that's way longer than the other. And that's your incorrect guesses for Rob. How are you doing, Joanna? It's so great to see you. Rob's just an unknowable person. What can you do? I'm delighted to be here. I love talking to you about television, Zach Lowe. What a girl. And also, we had a little pre-chat about the WNBA. And I feel really excited about my ability to talk to you about basketball. So, you know. Is talking to me about TV like kind of like talking to a, a toddler about, about something like it? You just feel, it's like a relief that you can just lower your conversational level to, to a point where it's, it's less of a burden. It's just easier. No, it's like the conversation you just had with me about the WNBA or talking to me about any sports whatsoever. Okay. So to review, your Joanna Robinson's 10 best shows since 2000. I think I have it right. In no particular order, lost and or better call Saul station 11. I hadn't even heard of it. Apparently everybody loved it. You both picked it. A flea bag game of Thrones justified normal people, something called taskmaster. That's a television show. And midnight mass. Those are your top 10. Yes. Yes. Okay. And you've seen the top 100 list. And so we're going to do rapid fire questions. Question number one, the show on the New York times top 100 list that you most want to watch and have never watched. So I will say this, this is my job, right? To watch television. So there are very few shows on here that I haven't seen. That just means that I do my job. That's great. But I have not seen any of the Anthony Bourdain travel shows. So parts unknown and no reservation. So those are, those are high on my list. Pen 15 is one that I missed that I know a lot of people love. I mean, it's pretty low on, on the list overall, but, and then I don't know that I would say dying to watch, but Nathan for you and the rehearsal, which I know a lot of people really, really love. I, there's something about those shows that it's this sort of cringe factor that I can't get through this, this comfort that just does not play for me. So I feel a little out of it that I'm not into those shows. They're very cool shows to be into, but they're, they're, they're not on my list. What about you? So the Bourdain ones are wonderful. I've seen bits and pieces of them, but they don't feel like shows in the way that like, I don't have to watch all of them. I can just watch an episode. Oh, he goes to Croatia. I want to watch that. I don't have to. So they just feel like I almost wouldn't even put them in the category that we're, we're talking about. I think a lot of people put like, I think Bourdain wound up because a lot of people wanted to do something that felt like nonfiction. You know what I mean? And I think Bourdain popped up for a lot of people in that regard. So by the way, I've not watched Nathan for you. I did like the first, five episodes of the first rehearsal. I guess there's more than one rehearsal now. I just was like, I don't, I feel horrible. I don't like this. I don't want to watch this. Not for me. Not for me. It's not for me. All right. Here are my five candidates for my own, my own question of show. I want to watch, but have not watched. Lost. The Americans. Ozark. Battlestar Galactica. And Homeland. And Joe, you know, you know my spousal limitations on violence and suspense and like all and gore and all that stuff. So like a lot of that, a lot of those shows fall under that pile. Those are my five nominees. Lost Americans. Ozark Battlestar Galactica Homeland. If you were advising me to pick, I have my own pick based just on what I've heard. But if you were advising me and I only get one, what is it? It's Lost. And I'm stunned that you haven't watched Lost, honestly. I think once you start watching it, and there is some violence and loss, but of all the ones you listed, it's the one I think your wife would most, you know, be able to get into. It's such a fun show. I know you're not a huge genre guy, so I know that there's some sort of like genre obstacle there, but it is, it is so fun. So engrossing. And it's so important. Like it's such a keystone for the rest of television. Like what? What has television has done since you and we talked about a show like Severance. Severance has huge DNA in common with Lost. In fact, on this Times 100, Adam Scott was, you know, one of the, one of the people that they got to do sort of a talking head. This is why I picked this show sort of thing. And he was talking about Lost and he was talking about how when they made the first season of Severance, he was just rewatching Lost. And I was like, I know you were, I can tell because there's so much Lost inside of Severance. So absolutely Lost. That's what I would recommend. - So lost is my pick. I just, everything I've heard about it, it's, it couldn't be more up my alley. I, I actually really do love Severance. And the only reason I watched it, my wife would hate it. The only reason I watched it is she was away for a week at one point, right when it came out, it's like 10 episodes. We're going to go all in. No, it may have been a flight. Like, I don't know. Somehow I got into it. Like, all right, I'm in now. I hadn't had a mystery box show, like a true mystery, what's going on here show since peak X-Files kind of. And I, and I would put the peak episodes of the X-Files up there with anything that TV has ever produced as well. The runs a little inconsistent. You have the post Mulder episodes, which I kind of don't recognize. You have the standalone ones versus the overarching plot ones, the overarching plot ones with the smoking man and all that is as good as it gets. So loss is my pick. And I'm glad to hear it's, it's got potential. It's got potential as a spouse, a spouse friendly show. But so that was my pick. I do. I do think. Cause you know, there's some like, but it was a network show. So like the, you know, in terms of like the people, you know, get in fistfights or people get shot, like, but it's never, as far as I can remember, uh, you know, never as gruesome as something like Ozark or the Americans shows, you know, I love the Americans, but like shows that I quite like, but, but because they're on cable can get like quite grisly. Um, I really hope you watch lost and talk to me about it. I would love that. I, and I know somehow. I know like almost nothing like 20 years later or whatever it is. I'm going in like close to cold. Uh, okay. Question number two show that was criminally underrated on that is on the list, but it's too low on the times 100 lists underrated, but on the list. Do you know, uh, my number one pick was lost, which is comes in at 22. And I think that's too low. I think it's a, it's a top 10, maybe top 15 show, like, like in terms of a consensus, like I really think law should have been higher, but since we just talked about loss, I'll, I'll, I actually had hold and catch fire here and we can talk about where to save that one for me. Cause I'm good. I'm good. I'm fired up. Um, how about, uh, Shogun, um, that's a show that if it had been one season and done, cause there's a couple one and done shows on here that were on my top 10 as well. Normal people's station 11. Um, if it had been one and done. I think Shogun would have been a lot higher, but because there's a second season coming and people don't know what that's going to look like, I think they're sort of hedging their bets and putting Shogun lower. But that was just such a phenomenally successful, um, adaptation of, uh, a book that had already been made into a very famous mini series. Um, and they just did an incredible job with it. So I would have put Shogun higher on the list. I'm looking for it. Where is it? I'm looking for it on the 86, even lower than that ever. All my friends were super hyped. Hyped up about Shogun, obviously too violent for the low household. Um, okay. I had three choices for this, for myself, uh, first choice. And I, I'm just going to press it by being cheeky. Um, you brought up loss being underrated at 22, despite being quite high. I just like the wire is better than breaking bad. It's not, they're not in the same universe. The wires should be number one. I don't really understand why break. I loved breaking bad. I enjoyed breaking bad. It was the last show that I watched where it felt like the whole world was tuning in on Sunday night or whatever night, the final episode was on as the last, I didn't get that with game of Thrones. I got it with breaking bad, love breaking bad. It's in my top 10. The wires is underrated at number two. Um, I will always go ahead. You have questions for me. It's who didn't make your, I noticed it did not make your top 10, which I don't know what to make. Well, Rob and I on this week's prestige, Rob and I were talking about having like, if we had one do over on our list, what we would do. And I said, I would put the wire on my list. I think I got a little too, I'm not going to put any of the like really obvious ones on my list. And I don't know why I did that, but that's something I did. I mean, even though I have game of Thrones on there, um, but I think I should have put the wire, but something we were talking about in terms of the wire was, I think a reason why it might've made number two instead of number one is the like differences between the seasons, the way each season has its own very special flavor and how some people, like, people don't hang with the second season doc, uh, storylines. I'm a big Frank Sabaka guy, but like not everyone is never got, never got to angst about season two. Season two is awesome. I don't understand why people don't like it. It's, it's amazing. I don't get it. But you know, I feel like people have their favorite seasons of the wire, but maybe feel that inconsistency over the seasons, whereas breaking bad, even though there are inconsistencies, like I think breaking bad was just sort of on an up and up and up trajectory. And so. And so it like starts still figuring out what it is and then it ends so high. And to your point about that, like monoculture moment, which the wire never had, the wire didn't get that consensus everyone's tuning in experience. So I wonder if you award points for everyone was watching it together and how, how powerful that feels. You know? It's fair. I love breaking bad. I've like, it's one of my favorite shows ever. I just think the wires objectively, objectively better. Um, I think that's a good take. Okay. Let's see. Number four. Let me see where it came in. I don't know. This, these things are too little for me to read. Uh, the shield, um, just massively underrated show. I'm glad it made the list. I'm trying to find where it's number 70, I mean, number 70, come on, not too bad, but it should have been in the top 50. The shield is so influential. Like it changed television, you know, it, uh, like I think it, you know, it came about after the Sopranos, but it was so influential. It's one of those huge era of the antihero, Vic Mackey sort of important shows that I think got forgotten in the way that some of, you know, the Sopranos and mad men and, and breaking bad gets sort of cemented inside of that world. But the shield was so important. Um, and everything that happened at FX after the shields, like justified, which is on my list. Like you don't get justified without the shield. Cause you don't get Walton Goggins. Like, uh, you know, in that series. Yeah. Like you don't get the space inside of the effects universe without the shield. So like, I agree with you. I think it should be much higher. Uh, Shane Vendrell, one of the great characters in, uh, modern TV history, Walt Goggins, as is Vic Mackey and like a pilot that just smacks you right across the face. Like this is what the show is get ready and just, there's no dip. There's no dip. It's just a crescendo the entire way for, I think four seasons, five since I can't remember. And then we get to the thing that invalidated the entire list. I'm going to be that guy, Joe. I don't like this. I don't like the guy. Who's like, you don't agree with me on this. So your entire pile of work that you labored over for months and months is invalid. However, if you have halt and catch fire number 96 out of a hundred shows since 2000 on your top 100 list, New York times, that's when you scrap it and you start over and you look at the methodology and you ask yourself, what have we done wrong here? It is my second favorite show of all time behind the wire. I don't. I just don't understand. I'm just going to say some names of television shows that are above it on the list. And I'm not trying to be rude. I'm just saying the diplomat, the diplomat, I like the diplomat, I like to give me Carrie Russell all day long, love the diplomat. It's an objectively ridiculous television show. That's part of its appeal. I think I loved catastrophe. It's not better than halt and catch fire. And I'm, I'm leaving out comedy. It's like 30 rock and Kirby and season. Cause I love those shows. And they're just hard to compare the great British baking show. I wanted to start a great British baking show segment on this podcast to put it above halt and catch fire is a crime. It's regular people baking fucking pies, settled down the Queens gambit, modern family, Ted lasso. Look, I got a soft spot for old coach lasso. But after season one. It hasn't been the same. The bear, the bear, how about we make a show where the whole show is either people screaming at each other, but it's supposed to be funny somehow, or just 10 minute continuous montages of food being prepared for four straight seasons. Come on. I house of cards. House of cards. It's higher. Again. I have to ask about sort of Rob and I were talking about this a little bit off pod about house of cards. How some cards was so important, like this is the question is it best is it favorite is important and house of cards, which is what kicked off the entire Netflix era, right? House of cards and origins. The new black is like what started Netflix television and you know, Kevin Spacey, we do not say his name anymore, but like the fact it was at the time that they got Robin Wright and Kevin Spacey and we're executing at this high level. It's not a show that I revisit, I think largely because of the spacey elements. But like for what it did to television, how Netflix joining the prestige TV era and bringing binge to prestige television forever dramatically changed the landscape. I think you have to acknowledge house of cards. Talk to me about why. I'm not even done. I'm not even done. You're not done. I'm fine. Hat tip to the business success in whatever of house of cards, which was I watched the first three or four scenes of it and I was like, this is also like the diplomat completely ridiculous. I'm not even done. I'm not even done. I'm not even done. I'm just going to keep going. I'm not even done. the white lotus it's fantastic to look at uh it's always the same formula which works every time something bad happens at the beginning and it's resolved at the end whatever it's just and it has like interesting things to say about sexual dynamics and friend dynamics and all of this class yeah it's just not as good as halt and catch fire now halt and catch fire you've seen it i have um i just think it it clearly starts off as madman 2.0 for the tech industry with a mysterious protagonist who's hiding something and is slick and a salesman and all that and evolves into a show that is about the the costs and benefits of devoting your life to your work and what you get out of it what you miss because of it and a show that starts off about a slick classic male protagonist i think really becomes about two female business women trying to make their way in a corporate tech world of the night 80s and 90s and maybe it goes into early 2000s i don't think so though and their beautiful relationship together and anyone who has devoted a huge part of their life to their work can find things that the show speaks to them about about what that means for your own satisfaction what you miss out on what what the and the relationships are beautiful it's just a beautiful show it's beautiful to look at it has to me like iconic television moments i'm sure you remember the neon sign flashing and going out when the two of them are taught when donna and cam are talking about the business they might start together one day and i think it is the rare show and i will stop now that gets continuously better every single season and every single episode and sticks the landing on the finale to a degree that is like i didn't watch six feet under i'll take everyone's word for it that it's like the greatest finale in the history of tv or whatever great halton catch fires finale is a plus plus wrap it up done i was crying it's over i don't get it i don't get what what people are not seeing it's an amazing show so the core cast of halton catch fire lee pace scoot mcnerry but as you mentioned mackenzie davis and carrie bechet become like sort of the actual protagonists of the show and then toby huss who i also love like these are five all star incredible performers as the core cast of this show and to your point it starts as this sort of like lee pace slick 80s don draper-esque what's his mysterious past who's this guy and it does become this show about female friendship or female entrepreneurship mackenzie davis is one of my favorite actresses she's a she's one of the reasons that station 11 is on so many people's list she's incredible on that show and so um this was a lot of people's introduction to her it's just like a huge uh splashy intro of like one of my favorite performers um i agree with you it should be way higher than than in the in the upper 90s um where where would you put it would you put it to number two two number two two number two two okay what if you're being realistic about how many people have watched halton catch fire well is that i guess is that the criteria i have to consider no i just think importance and and like well why is friday night lights number 14 and by the way do not interpret that as a shot at friday night lights clear hearts clear eyes full hearts can't lose right here um nobody watched that show oh no a lot of people watch that show it's just the standards were different because it was on network it was on nbc at a time when you needed to like pull in more audience on nbc but like and people have it has grown in estimation over the years um halton catch fire on amc not a lot of people watched it four seasons people championed it you're a great champion for it i hope you get a lot of people to watch it based off of this episode but i don't think it's become like one of those library shows that people go to and return to and it's grown in people's estimation so like guess what joe guess what i am a i i i would like to think i am a good customer or a stupid customer because i have everything i have every streaming service there is apple paramount hbo max disney plus the hulu bundle all that and i wanted to um start re-watching halton catch fire on my peloton just for fun just to do it and guess what guess what streaming service it's available on none only none none not even not even amc plus i have to pay i have to pay it's available but i have to pay extra per episode or per season on amazon prime i think and i'm like yeah amazon plus yeah i'm subscribing to everything i still have okay anyway let's go do another question because i'm getting upset everybody watch here's my question for you zach when are you going to do a halt catch fire rewatch podcast with with rob and me don't you think we should do that maybe judging by the success of the show and its placement on this list i feel like that's a loss as people might say in the industry okay we will come back to this um category category number three show you were shocked did not even make the list yeah so when i saw saw that and i think this is bullshit but when i saw that they put true detective season one like just season one on the list like i didn't know that was legal i didn't know you could just pluck out one season of a show but they put true detective season one on the list and if we're just pulling out singular seasons um then i think fargo belongs on this list shocker i've never even seen it i'm like i thought everyone loved that show i mean the the seasons are inconsistent but again if we're if we're talking about anthology shows where you can just pull out a season fargo season one and for that matter fargo season two absolutely belong on a list that includes to your point the diplomat so i will i will knock the diplomat i think it is aggressively fine mediocre west wing light is what the diplomat is uh oh i like that uh my surprise omission was silicon valley uh i was i couldn't believe that was not on the list i think it's a very good comedy it's on one of my favorite favorite comedies like i don't laugh like i do watch 30 rock or curb your enthusiasm or seinfeld back in the day whatever i just given given how prescient it has been about a lot of different things and the fact that it's funny and the fact that mike judge has become like a tv god kind of surprised that it did make the list and i'm not a particular fan of this next show but it won every single possible award in season one somewhat inexplicably to me it's not my cup of tea i thought for sure the studio would be on here even though it's only one season and all of that but it it like won everything in hollywood people love the show about hollywood apparently here's here's my other pick i'm actually really shocked it's not here is gray's anatomy only just because it's like such a big deal like gray's anatomy one of the longest running shows of all time and i'm not saying it's always been a great show but it is it is it it launched shonda's career and like scandals on here and that's great but like gray's anatomy should be on this list it's astounding to me it's not on there i well i didn't even think about it's still on right yeah yes i i thought for a second maybe it debuted in 1999 but i think there's no way it did and i that's a shocker that's a that's the 20 million an episode you know for what's her name ellen pompeo uh yeah wow okay spicy category overrated listed too high yeah are you gonna get in trouble for your response to this or do you just not care no no i'm fine um the crown i think is too high i like the crown um but it's at number 20 and i think that's way too high for the crown um i put it in the top 50 but i would not put it at number 20 over lost no absolutely not um and then not to like double down on netflix but also black mirror uh in terms of like inconsistency of a run i think the first like three seasons of black mirror are like a masterpiece and then it just got progressively worse and shaky from there so those are two that i was just really surprised by how high they were never watched for black mirror never watched either but that's other we didn't we we tried the crown and it didn't stick didn't give it enough time i don't think um i'm not a big period period costume drama person but but it didn't stick i i think the first couple see you know the crown famously they recast it every two seasons as the characters age i think the first two seasons are really really good but then i think it got sort of progressively fine and i i just wouldn't 20 is bonkers to me on this list so yeah all right so i already mentioned i already mentioned the white lotus which i would have on the list but not 21 in this hallowed territory that you're talking about i already mentioned house of cards which is at 48 yeah uh those would be two of my picks i'm just i'm just gonna say i just in the interest of fairness uh by the way a lot of people have slammed fleabag at number five it's been a while since i've seen fleabag i remember being absolutely like walloped by how good fleabag was so i'm fine with it there it's just been a while and i haven't haven't seen it um yeah to sort of check myself i thought i i had to do the exercise of is it okay for a show where one of the characters killed a guy and then we just never talked about it again and it was never discussed and if it was never happened would appear all the way at number 14 in Friday Night Lights and then you know what I said you know what I said Joanna I just love it so much that I'm completely fine with it at number 14 um and I did I really agree I did some googling because it's been a long time since I watched that and like Kyle Chandler forget it I'll root for him in everything Connie Britton the whole cast it had been a while since I'd watched it and in my memory season three which is the season right after the Landry murder no one ever talked about again um was my favorite season and I it and I I googled around and I saw some reddit thread that was like season three is overrated and then everyone was disagreeing and I went back and I was like I wonder if some of these moments that I think are in season three are actually in season three you have my brain is muddling it all together the smash farewell episode is one of my favorite episodes of tv ever I don't know if you remember that at all but smash gets into college after suffering a horrible injury he goes and hugs coach Taylor at his house and he and Landry and Saracen and Tim Riggins and god damn is Tim Riggins the most handsome man on the face of the earth for like a five-year span go and play one last game of pickup football at the Dillon field and smash gets open catches a ball and he's like I don't know what to do I don't know what to do I don't know the ball scores a touchdown starts to celebrate and the camera zooms in on his smiling face and in slow motion he says where you at baby where you at and it slows down to drag out the words and it's honestly it's as good as the goddamn concluding shot of 400 blows by Francois Truffaut that's what it's like that's how that's how good it is and it's also season three is also when Tim Riggins lays his cleats down on the field after they lose the state championship game it's just an a plus plus season no television it's that it's that pickup game and then the game at the end of Friday Night Lights when they throw the ball and you cut so you don't see how it came in and you can figure out from context clues what happens but like they kind of let you know that that's not even really the point that I I will never forget but yes that that last sort of pickup game between the guys and the the magic trick that Friday Night Lights did of rebooting its premise to a certain degree of like going over to East Dillon and how East Dillon worked almost even better than West Dillon in many ways is just sort of like it's astonishing it's a masterpiece show I love it so much so I'm willing to forgive the Landry plot and I'm willing to forgive that every single game comes down to the last play and they're often crazy Hail Marys and ridiculous plays my last answer for this um and this is this is a hot take and I don't mean to like knock knock the show it should definitely be on the list somewhere I just never really got the game of Thrones mania I watched the first three I watched the first three or four I watched the first three or four seasons continuously and my reaction was generally like it's good like it should be plus I'm entertained the whole time I'm just not particularly moved or invested and I guess we're just gonna put it at number six even though the whole world agrees that it fumbled the last season so badly that everyone is ashamed to have ever witnessed it and that it ever happened I just feels a little high six six feels a little high six six feels a little high six six feels a little high I appreciate not throwing the baby out with the bath water on that one and like again I don't know if I'm if I sound inconsistent when I'm like hey should we knock a show for inconsistent seasons but like I think the last two seasons of Thrones are I think the last two are pretty bad and I actually that's 25% of the show I really don't even like five that much but I think what Thrones did for two you know just the way you're describing this like monoculture we're all watching a show together the way that Thrones like Harry Potter and even more fraught property but the way in which these shows sort of rearrange the way that people think about story the way it introduced uh fantasy storytelling to a ton of people uh the way it is responsible for my entire career Zach Lowe I just can't I can't count it out you can't it's too important to me you can't chalk up your career to the show it's it's it's like I'm too close to it if no if not for that show it would have been another show because it's your talent that is responsible for your career the show was a coincidence it would have been something else um okay last one if you had to re-watch one show right now of the list of the top 100 what's your re-watch choice now I realize you're re-watching stuff all the time you're watching episodes of shows that come out three times for your podcast for your job but just a show that's like man it would be fun to go back into that world for a I need to I need to do a Veep re-watch I think it's time for me to re-watch Veep I I haven't since it ended I like spot re-watch sometimes but I think it's time for me to do a full Veep re-watch that show is so good and um and like so funny and such a great world to be in and I think as we navigate the political waters that we currently exist in it it might feel good to laugh a bit at the absurdity uh that that the way in which Veep became essentially like a documentary or actually the way in which Veep became like a kinder gentler version of what we actually have found ourselves in uh I think it might be good to watch Veep and then uh Band of Brothers Band of Brothers is something that like maybe I should just re-watch every year like should I is that what I should do on Memorial Day I should just re-watch Band of Brothers like that miniseries is so good they just had an anniversary I was just at a TV festival where they had a panel with a bunch of the guys from Band of Brothers talking about making the the series and meeting the like real live soldiers who they were portraying and all sorts of like that and it got me really emotional so like Band of Brothers feels like one of those things that I could re-watch every year and get something out of so I think it's time for me to do that I've never seen it uh I think those are great picks it's interesting you talked about spot re-watching because I that my spot re-watch shows and I associate that with like uh we have 30 minutes left in the flight and the wi-fi is getting wonky or the food like I'm eating on the plane and I can't work uh that's already Veep or 30 Rock or Kirby Enthusiasm for me just like give me 25 minutes of just I'm gonna be laughing uproariously in my chair and people are gonna be like what's what's up with that guy um you know I will re-watch The Wire someday but it's too obvious of a choice uh I will pick The Shield as my my re-watch choice number one it's been a while and I just think it's awesome and I and enough of it has faded from my memory that like of the particulars that I it would be pretty fresh for me to like what's going on in season three of The Shield uh at the barn season three is my favorite season of The Shield um that's a that's a great choice I really want you to watch Band of Brothers I want you to watch Band of Brothers and see how many people who became famous were in Band of Brothers before they became famous that's a really fun part of it okay I mean are you are you like a are you like World War II like a World War guy is that something that you like my thing not my thing okay all right to different world different like this anyway different World War but I still like Dunkirk as a whole in my uh Nolan movie uh movie thing um not really my thing but uh perhaps one day I will watch it yeah um I think you would I mean I think Lost the fact that you haven't seen Lost and if I can convince you to watch Lost and maybe you and your wife wouldn't enjoy watching it together I would consider that one of the most important things in my career um but Band of Brothers is like pretty close thereafter so here's here's I think the to-do list we get you to watch Lost we get Rob to watch Halt and Catch Fire uh he's not coming back on my show he's not coming back on my show until he's halfway through season one of Halt and Catch Fire I love this threat I support it Joanna Robinson what what do we got coming this week what can we what can you tell us about your next few appearances oh uh we're covering so horses remind me are you are you a slow horses household no too violent too suspenseful but I watched season one on my own uh once and it was I mean as as great as everyone says and Gary Oldman's farts and his toeless socks are incredible from start to finish iconic yeah so we're covering slow horses right now on Prestige uh House of Art we're doing a book recommendation podcast this week so if you're looking for something to read um we've got a fun guest on that show and um learning more about the WNBA I think that's what I'm gonna do right now baby uh Joanna Robinson you are you are the best thank you for indulging my idiot opinions on television and um Stan Halt and Catch Fire forever Joanna Robinson thank you thanks Zach all right that's it for today's edition of the Zach Lowe Show we'll be back next week I think we're recording Monday afternoon with a couple of people it should be a fun episode thanks to Joanna Robinson thanks to Kurt Goldsberry thanks as always to Mike Billy and Jonathan on production and thanks to you all for listening to and or watching the Zach Lowe Show we will be back next week 21 or over and president select States for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas star Casino or 18 and over and present in DC or Wyoming gambling problem call 1-800 gambler or 1-800 my reset call 1-888-789-777-5177 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or is it mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland hope is here visit gambling helpline ma.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-800-327-5050 877-8-HOPE-NY or text HOPE-NY in New York. 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