The Fall TV We’re Most Excited For. Plus, ‘Lanterns’ E4 and ‘Lioness’ After Dark.

- It is time to set the world on fire. - This fall. - God. - Earn huge rewards when you visit AMC Theaters with the Focus features and AMC Passport. - I was wondering whether I might ask you. - Yes. - Join the adventure in The Uprising. - There will be no peace until we are free. - Feel the love with Sense and Sensibility. - The man who loves me must burn with it if such a man exists. - Discover the triumph of Elsinore. - When it comes to life, life. - It's quality that I want. - It's joy. - And unleash the terror of Werewolf. - Do not dread darkness, embrace it. - See all four films and unlock $100 in rewards. - Listen, listen. - The more you watch. - Come on, come on! - The more you earn. - I require so much. - Get tickets and automatically activate your Focus Passport today. Exclusively at AMC Theaters. - This episode is brought to you by the Active Cash Credit Card from Wells Fargo. That's a mouthful, but that's because it packs a lot in. Earn unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases with it, big or small, so whether it's buying tickets to the game or grabbing a coffee, it earns unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases. Say it with me, the Active Cash Credit Card from Wells Fargo, be a 2%-er. Learn more at wellsfargo.com/activecash, terms apply. - I need supports to have to clear the room. - Stand up and walk, now! - Hello, and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at TheRinger.com. Joining me in the studio, he's the Manhunter. It's Andy Greenwald! - How long have you known? - Ever since we slept together, all those years ago. Greenwald, great to see you, man, on Labor Day, but we thought, why don't you come on the show? - Yeah, that's a great idea. - Yeah, why the hell not, you know? Honestly, middle age, what are you gonna do, you know? - Hang out with the kids? - Nah. - No, no, no, there's TV to talk about. - Yeah, I wanted to talk about lanterns. I wanted to talk a little bit about Fall TV. You wanted to talk about the Creative Artists Emmy. - It's good that you include me in it. - Creative Arts Emmys? - Yeah, well, 'cause the way you were framing it suggested that I had plans and Kaya and John had plans, but you were like, "I wanna talk about lanterns." - No, this is-- - Saddle up. - Greenwald called his own number. He was like, "Monday's gotta be the day. "I'm a very busy man on Tuesday." - Not so true. - So also, like, why go on Tuesday? - I know, it's like the week's already over. - This is where we belong. And when you look at your podcast feed and it's Bill and Sal, right? And then it's CR and Greens. Greeny, no? - Do they say that? - Bill and Sal, they don't call us Greeny. - They don't talk about us at all. I'm just saying, like, I don't think-- - Sometimes. - No, those are, I love those guys. I mean, don't put me on the spot here. I got no beef. - Here's what I wanna do today. I do have a Fall television. - A Fall television preview. - Nice. - I looked at the next couple of months of releases. - That's nice. - And I was like, how do I wanna present this? I could chronologically, I could go hype, hype-- - Hype beast. - I thought I would just rank 'em in terms of how much I think you're interested in 'em. - This is gonna be a good test on both the Fall slate and also your knowledge of me and where I'm at. - Well, what I tried to do is imagine a world in which you were just a mere citizen. Flipping channels, you know? Scrolling through streaming services, but looking for something a little bit stimulating. A little bit of comfort, but a little bit of provocation, a little bit of artistic boundary pushing. - Something to spice up my otherwise anodyne existence. - And I think we as a pod need it too. We need some juice back, right? - Do you think? - No, I mean, TV does. I think we've been having some lols covering the shows we've been covering. - And by the way, I do wanna, I wanted to ask you a Linus question this week. - My silence will continue to be deafening. We're in a bit of a-- - I know. I'm gonna push you on that. - We're in a bit of a dark moment with this show over the last two weeks. - I'm gonna carve out a little space. I wanna ask you. - Please do. We could do Linus after dark if you want. - Okay, all right, I do. - I don't know anything about why the Emmys are now taking place over two weekends and why there's like a hundred categories got rewarded this past weekend. - This isn't new. - And I don't think it was aired on TV, to my knowledge. - It is odd to me that it's not just because everybody's so desperate for anything. But yes, the Oscars do this too. There's the Creative Arts Awards the weekend before. - But it's not something where they're like, oh, did you see who won the Creative Arts Awards? That means this is gonna happen next week, right? - Well, no. Basically what it is is a two night to dispense with all of the deeply essential and meaningful categories that don't play as well on television, that aren't as prestigious, that the stars aren't necessarily receiving. I think one of the changes, one of the reasons why it's more evident this year is because, for example, the guests star in a television series, Emmy, has always been given away on this weekend. And I feel like between the years of 2004 and 2012, it was just Jean Smart won all of them before she was Jean Smart star of "Hacks." So it wasn't like a, no disrespect to Jean Smart, but it wasn't a needle moving sort of pay attention moment. Because of the caliber of actors that come to TV these days, even just to drop in, it's a bigger deal. And like for specifically guest actress in a television series, Emmy went to Eddie Gilpin for "Widow's Bay," along with almost any other category that "Widow's Bay" was nominated for last night, which it won, which sort of previews, I mean, everything from "Score" to Christian Springer for cinematography. We already knew, I think we're gonna do some predictions and previews on Thursday that "Widow's Bay" was gonna clean up, but "Widow's Bay" is gonna clean up. - It seems like it. It seems like, I think the big question was, does "Hacks" get this great victory lap, Emmys run? - Right. - In comedy, and it does seem like "Widow's Bay" has kind of slingshot Pitt-esque into like, into the lead position here. - And speaking of Pitt, Ernest Harding won the highly competitive guest actor in a drama award against many other people on the pit. He played Louie. That was exciting to see, great congratulations to him. I would say the biggest thing about this award, these awards being handed out over the weekend, is it's really like throwing down the gauntlet. And I'm just gonna say this, like Katie Dippold, Hiro Murai, people who've been on our show, you can't show up and be like, "Oh no, I don't have anything prepared." You guys now, you have like six days. You gotta be ready. - Sure. - Because you're going, which camera? Matthew Rhys, you're winning an Emmy. You better be ready for it, okay? - Has Matthew Rhys ever been like, "I'm completely flat-footed, I have nothing charming to say"? - Oh, the camera's on? Which one? Yeah, exactly. I'm just saying, you cannot pretend this isn't happening. Go through your process, be nervous, but be ready, because we're excited to see you win. But the other thing-- - Speaking of Hiro Murai. - What's that? - Speaking of Hiro Murai. - Oh, sure. - The director of several episodes of "Wooda's Bay" and an essential plank of the creative team there. - Executive producer, yeah. - I did a "Adventures in Moviegoing" interview with him. - I saw that. - Where I talked to Hiro for about a half an hour about his favorite films on the Criterion channel and his life as a moviegoer. And you can watch that on the Criterion channel now. - That's great. - Just wanted to let everybody know. - I'm sorry, I didn't bring that up. - That's all right. - I like to be the one to celebrate you. - I know you do. - Whenever possible. - It's really one of your better qualities. - It's one of my two good qualities. The other one that kind of rocked it was DTF St. Louis. Linda Cardellini, David Harbour won. All told-- - Why are Linda Cardellini and David Harbour's categories not on your list? - That was the other example I was gonna give you. I guess to make more space in the big night. - For what? - For speeches, for celebrations of the medium, for like, "Oh, it's the 25th anniversary "of the 'Angellion' sitcom," whatever. Like, I don't know what they're gonna be doing. But they put the actors in a mini-series categories over the weekend as well. So they've already won, good for them. But the big totals were, oh, the other sort of very sweet thing was that Rob Reiner won for his appearance on "The Bear" season four. - Yes. - So he won posthumously guest actor in a comedy Emmy. - That's nice. - By the numbers, "Woodoes Bay" won eight already this weekend. "DTF St. Louis" won six. "The Pit" has already landed four. "Palm Royale" and "Margo's Got Money Troubles," two shows that are on Apple TV that we do not really cover, won three. But here's the one that I think is gonna be exciting for you. - Okay. - A little program called "I Love Lucy" was recognized with a Legacy Award, which is a little bit like giving a appreciation award to oxygen for helping us breathe. - Yeah. - They really went on a limb with that one. - Was that a special dispensation or was it up against a competition? - Wouldn't that be amazing? - Yeah. - This one's legacy matters more. The only other thing I thought was interesting was "Spider Noir" won five Emmys. - And that got canceled. - Got canceled right before. - Oh, I thought that was interesting. - That it got canceled? - Yeah, I mean, I wonder whether or not that show is maybe expensive or Nick Cage is busy or what the deal was. - I'm gonna answer the first part. Yeah, that show is super expensive. As I talked about when we talked about it, I can speak from some personal experience. The development of that show spans four, five, maybe almost six years. - Yeah. - I think- - They had to get it right. - But here's the thing. I genuinely think from talking to some folks who were involved in it that they feel that they did a great show and they are proud of it and that they told a story and that it's diminishing, potentially diminishing returns to revisit it and come up with another reason for doing it rather than maybe circling back up and coming up with another spider type show. - Sure. - The larger industry thing, this will filter into a lot of our other conversations, I think, in terms of just like a larger industry, trend that surprised me is that the streamers and networks are increasingly concerned about the diminishing returns for everything. Meaning the second and third seasons of shows are underperforming relative to what people expected them to. What would an example be? I mean, I think you could point to what are some shows that came back this year? I mean, we were talking about this briefly when we were talking about like Last of Us coming back, which is still a blockbuster for HBO. Neil Druckmann doing some bang-up PR for Last of Us season three. What's he been doing? I didn't see. He's just like, I have nothing to do with it. Cool. Yeah. And seems to be rather pointed in his like, don't loop me in on this. That's sort of my attitude generally about heroes, adventures, and movie going. I wasn't part of it. Good luck with it. I hear good things. Yeah. But what I'm trying to say is it's not just the reality of it. It's not just the reality of it. three-year gap between seasons that some shows are experiencing on the on the 10,000 footest 10,000 foot view of things there was a swing away from the expense of launching a show limited series big stars and whatever just for that one hit and thus we've we've seen you know people trying to crack the code of is it the pit that comes back every year is it task that goes from limited to ongoing but the pendulum in terms of development is seemingly swinging back to people saying we'd rather just have limited and I feel like the kid in the front of the class yeah it's bringing it back every year like I agree like I agree there are so many little things you can see from like this short episode order for something like adults yep uh where for fans of that show that's basically a two-night experience rather than a 10 to 12 week experience um you can point to shows that inexplicably like not vfx heavy shows that take taking two two and a half years to create a show that's not vfx heavy shows that take taking two two and a half years to come back Gary Oldman just talked about this um in some slow horses promo where he's just like the show works because a bunch of people work insanely hard to make this model that we we follow work which is essentially the British model but still like it works really well I want to do our fall tv preview yeah uh for Andy uh but thank you I do I did also do since I have you here um and I know Nathan Fielder's work is very important to you wanted to ask you about this out of nowhere news that Nathan Fielder and Lance Oppenheim have made a documentary about Elizabeth Holmes that's coming out next month um that Sean has already seen that Sean has already seen and you can see his his uh I assume glittering review he said he wrote ha ha ha ha ha on letterbox so I assume that means he enjoyed it uh well or he enjoyed the spectacle of of it happening or whatever but he keeps you guessing it makes you want to tune into the next episode it looks very intimate it looks very intimate it looks very intimate it looks very intimate it looks very intimate it does so what's the name of this thing it's called everybody means nothing to me no that's Elliot Smith everybody all the time now look at me everyone come on you can see everything I wasn't wrong uh it's an excruciating trailer okay but cool good no I I'm gonna be honest with you I have like a real um when I have a real reckoning about this okay let's do it many people know that I continue to experience this this phenomenon that you're having of of of people thinking that you look like Nathan Fielder is that what you're gonna say um I would say since the glasses went full time and I started you know just doing a lot more core work you know um no not that part but you do look good you know what I think we're both doing great thank you um I would say it has it has dissipated a little bit I think the sting of having someone ask for a photo with who they thought to be Nathan Fielder in front of my younger daughter was you know that was a tough one that one took some time um but the bigger thing that I have to say is you know one can't be cowardly about art you know one has to run towards the things that discomfort us if I may and I also feel strongly though I've yet to remedy this that I am aware of the massive mistake I made in not engaging with the rehearsal season two and that I I must you're scared of flying too or you weren't scared of were well that was part of it too no I I don't love flying not scared of it but you know there's this thing when you're on an airplane and uh it kind of like bumps a little bit what do you call that turbulence don't love it yeah don't love that part but everything else is fine you know it's great food food is delightful the duct tape you know whatever you need um anyway so I just to say that I I need to address this blind spot I admit it I'm okay with it this is great this is but that said the underlying thing why I didn't engage really with Nathan for you is because the style of comedy is him inches away from Elizabeth Holmes's face while she doesn't blink and that's intense well Batman may have met his joker in this documentary I don't know anything about it there's there's a lot of buzz about it there's a lot of speculation about it and I think that there's going to be an issue with like a cohort of critics who have gotten to see it um and then I think Lance and Fielder are relying on their their secrecy and their their you know being honest to their whatever forms they had designed to see it like to not reveal what usually happens with Nathan Fielder's work which is like major I can't believe this is happening kind of twist so I'm very curious to see what that is I um I also you know have to stay true to the other previously staked out position which was super pro Lance Oppenheim because primetime looks like one of the most exciting movies of the year looks gangbusters yeah so I want to just be held accountable um let's talk a little bit about fall television before we do lanterns so I went through kind of my usual sources to see what was coming out over the next couple of months people want to know who your sources are metacritic.com okay and then it's like slash tv release I didn't mean like in the way that the justice department wants to know who's talking to the times I just thought maybe you had some other ways of getting this information isn't it the pentagon they're the ones who are like polygraphing everybody right yeah but you know national science is a big part of it I think it's a big part of it I think it's a big part of it security um that actually comes up in in Linus I can't wait to talk about why did we lead with that okay we'll save it because you're you're worried you got to be accountable to some footsteps it's pdxf um look I wanted to put together a top 10 list of shows that I thought you'd be fired up about because I think that we have had a weird year uh not you and I but tv yeah I think we're good where um we started out very strong I thought we had the pit and we had industry we had a bunch of shows that we've liked widow's bay um furious like it's it the top end is very strong there have been years where I've been like man I already have my top 10 okay you know this year I could probably fill it out but it's not only been like um a little bit fallow in my opinion but it's also been uninspiring up until furious and widow's bay I'm especially I'm until furious I found it to be like tv is kind of like a little bit more like a little bit more like a lost its its way we have a lot of stuff that feels like it's bloated a lot of stuff that feels like it's undercooked do you I'm gonna push I'm gonna dig a little bit here now do you feel like it's because things there haven't been enough things that surprised or delighted or is it that the the volume of mediocrity has started to drown out the highs I think it also could be me I think also when you put up like if you if you spend a ton of time watching something as generally programmatic television or exotic television you can start to see some tricks and you can start to see some seams uh that maybe you don't if you're just casually watching a show at a time here or there and that's on me like I mean I have to find my joy right like it but some of it is like oh I know I'll give you an example okay there are scenes in lanterns for instance yeah uh but I could think of a couple of shows like it where there are more it's more or less a set piece of it but it's more of a set piece of it where there are more it's more or less a set piece or more or less like a piece of physical action where a character might be getting chased or a character might be trying to get into a building that they're not supposed to get into and the entire time I'm like obviously they're getting into the building like how long is this you know what I mean I see so that there's something where I think I'm hitting against the maybe limited scope of the visual storytelling but the over reliance on needing those visuals to be effective um or something like that there's a little a couple little tenets of that stuff that I'm like okay I'm banging my head against the wall a little bit here but admittedly I I I did this research on the next couple months and I'm just as excited as you will be it's interesting though because I think we're you're a hundred percent right that tv generally to be successful in a consistent way has to follow certain patterns and it has a certain established rhythm and a relationship with audiences that allow it to flourish in the margins it's kind of what our conversation was about furious where it's a cat and mouse show the cat and mouse are going to cross paths at a certain point how but so in that it becomes all about how surprising can be the way that they do it how like when how the formalism exactly and then if those delight then you stop paying attention to the familiarity of it but and anyway we should get into the list but I think this specific conversation is relevant to lanterns too in the ways that it delights and in the ways that it it can frustrate services and frustrates yeah all right this is the ranking of the new and returning shows of fall the reason why I put this together this way is because I just wanted to give it some scope. This is also a little bit like Chris GPT. Like, you could have done my columns for me at Grandland. I don't even have to change the letter. It could just be. I know. Well, I guess you might have changed the letter. Which letter? Well, you know how, like, Bill was doing, like, chat GBT? I hadn't heard about that. But he accidentally. Yeah, anyway. So the number one, two, and three shows that I have ranked here are all shows that are returning. Okay. I have The Lowdown Season 2 as our number one show of the fall. So exciting. I have Slow Horses Season 6. And I have Black Dove Season 2. This is going to be a great fall. These are. Stop there. An interesting collection of shows to talk about together because, obviously, they're all genre shows that are a genre that we care about a lot. Detectives and spies. Sometimes kind of both. Sometimes. And they are examples of the varying ways in which. Seasonal television has succeeded and failed in terms of, like, giving us reliable thrills. I don't. I cannot wait for Black Dove Season 2. It has been a while. Yeah. Since Black Doves was on. Shout out Joe Barton. I know he made Amadeus. I'm sure he's been very busy. Like, we love Joe Barton. I was saying, like. No, no, no. I don't remember why they are the way they are on Black Doves. No, but I would say this. This is a continuation, in a way, of the praise we were giving the show two years ago when it premiered. That, for me, the joy of Black Doves is Ben Whishaw sadly drinking champagne with a shotgun next to him and then going to rescue Keira Knightley or vice versa. I 100% don't really remember the conceit of what organization they belong to and where they stand vis-a-vis Interpol or British politics. Yeah, and who did what to whom to get them there. Right. But I think the sign of a well-made show like that is that I don't actually care. I can't wait to be back in that world at Christmas time. But it is an interesting. Again, it's another. It's another interesting conversation about what we look for in these TV shows. And I don't know. I think I would have accepted anything, you know, when we were waiting for a new season of Mad Men to come back. I would have accepted any kind of, like, context shaking. Yeah. And I would have been happy with the characters because we love them. But that was a different relationship where. Black Doves is like, I want my program back. Yes. With Mad Men, I was like, I see that they have disbanded the previous firm and I know Lane Price is essential in this forming of the second one. Now I am prepared for the season to begin. When will we find out when Dick Whitman and Dom Draper, like, converge? But, like, Black Doves, I'm just kind of like, please make things go boom and have, like, cool dinners. I'm really excited for this show to come back. Sam Riley and Dev Campbell are joining the cast for season two. For Slow Horses season six, some seasons work better than others. This season is based on Joe Country and Moscow Rules, the two McCarran novels. I find that really interesting, that they took two books because there are a finite number of books, right? I think he's going to keep writing them, but I think, I would bet, I think they're already shooting season eight. I'm going to guess, I think they're already shooting eight. Usually by six, usually at the end of a season, they have a trailer for the following season, right? Yeah, because I think their production schedule is such that they shoot, they're shooting in the summer, so they would have been shooting season seven this summer and wrapping up, just as season six premieres. Oh, you think season seven is a block and then they'll do. No, it's not a block. It's just that they shoot in the summers and they premiere in the fall, the following fall, to give them enough time. Okay, well. But they're probably writing eight, to your point. I'm going to guess they're going to do ten seasons. That's incredible. I'm going to guess. I think that there's plenty of material. There's also novellas that they could mess with. I'm very excited for this season. If they did ten seasons in ten years, they should get the I Love Lucy Legacy Award. Well, I think they can do it for as long as Oldman wants to do it. For sure. I think it's a staple of Apple's programming at this point. And it's like the thing that they have that people. I couldn't tell. I was looking at Twitter like a week ago or something and it was just like a tremendous amount of Slow Horses tweets that felt in the Lane Brown clipping zone of accounts I'd never heard of being like the way she looks at him and it's like Catherine Standish looking at Roddy. I am very excited for season six. That's September 17th, I believe. Also, this season has the return of. 16th. Of what's her name? Olivia Cook. Yes. Right. Now, I feel like, again, speaking about being accountable, I appreciate this. I think you let me off the hook for this, maybe, which was generous because I think you have read some of the novels. I have not read any of McHeron's novels and I really, really remember, again, there have been so many seasons since, but I really feel like I staked some ground on this podcast being like, well, she'll be back. But like I thought. Did you? Yes. I felt pretty strongly that it was misdirect. This was me like, I know how the show works three episodes in. I was glad that in the long arc of history, I was right. You didn't think it was a King's Mayor of Kingstown situation. No, but when it just. She was also not Kyle Chandler at that point. This is before House of the Dragon. And then she went to do House of the Dragon, so maybe she was unavailable. I don't know what the character's like in the books, but I thought it was cool that they. It's just an impressive thing in that you can see you can do it if you come back every three years, but it feels more exciting when you have a show that is relentlessly pushing forward, but continues to carry its own history with it. I think it's exciting. Yeah, me too. Lowdown season two, I can't possibly explain how excited I am for this. Name the new cast members. Tommy Lee Jones and Betty Gilpin. Emmy award winner, Betty Gilpin. Yes, Tommy Lee Jones, I believe, is playing Lee's father. Incredible. And Betty Gilpin, I believe, is the owner of the Alt Week that he writes for, but I'm not sure. In any case, this seems like the kind of show that will, if it was already fully taken flight in the first season, it's going to be already up and running. This is a show screaming out for, you already know and love these people, here's a new case and here are a couple of new characters. For people who are listening to us talk about this who haven't watched the first season yet, stop the podcast and watch the first season. But one of the things that I think we got away from in praising its development and delivery of the season one plot was that one of the most remarkable aspects of it was that it launched with a complete galaxy of lived-in locations and characters. That one of my favorite memories of the show is the early season interactions between Ethan Hawke's character and a character played by Macon Blair, who's a director who also, he directed that movie that was called Shitheads and is now called Idiots that just came out. And that character or the other people on his street, what's that kid's name? Josh Fadim, I said his name wrong, sorry. The Neighbors. The record store owner. Who owns the record store. Like, they don't quote unquote matter to the plot, but it is so rare to have a show that arrives with a fully lived-in world to enjoy. And I think, I'm just so glad for many reasons that it was going to continue. But for a show that could move forward but also spread out, it's just a, it's speaking to the theme of how, of having something recurring. Those are the top three. Those are strong top three. I think it's going to be a great fall. Now I have a bunch of new stuff. And I think you're going to be kind of like, oh damn. So number one, I can't say that I'm super familiar with Mackenzie Crook's work since The Office and I guess Pirates of the Caribbean. Yeah. He played Gareth on the UK Office. He has also become a show creator over in England. He made a show called The Detectorists that I never saw. And now has a show that I think I have received at least a dozen emails about over the course of the year when it was airing in England about how we needed to find this show, how we needed to talk about it, how we were going to love it. It's called Small Profits. All right. P-R-O-P-H-E-T-S Profits. Oh. And it is six episodes. It's coming to Apple on October 7th. And it stars Pierce Quigley who is also in The Detectorists who is still distraught. He plays an a man named Michael who is still distraught seven years after the disappearance of his girlfriend. So like any of us would, this is the log line, he turns to alchemy, specifically the creation of magical spirits who can predict the future. Co-stars in the Manchester set series as does Michael Palin. Michael Palin. And several other folks, Paul Kay, Sophie Willen. I don't know anything about it. The trailer seems delightful, weird, and cozy. And how is it coming to us? Via Apple TV. Apple Television. Is it? Yeah. That's why I was like, oh, Apple thought enough of this to put some coin up for it. That sounds great. Yeah. So I was like, this is cool. Maybe a new voice for us to cover. The next one that I have here after Small Profits is Tiptoe, which is a new show from Russell Davies who made Years and Years. Oh, I know about this. And it's a sin. This is Alan Cumming, David Morrissey. As neighbors, right? As neighbors. As neighbors. Feuding neighbors. Sign me up. But is it set particularly during any sort of troubles? Not to my knowledge. Troubles as in. I don't mean the troubles, but I mean more like UK. I didn't get any deep detail about that, but Alan Cumming and David Morrissey play Feuding Neighbors. It's five episodes. It's on Starz. You know I love Alan personally and professionally. I also know about the show because they were doing press together for it. Uh-huh. And I think I saw it through Alan's Instagram and it's just absolutely delightful because they've known me known each other for 30 years. And they were talking about like, and they were so cozy and and I think they play vicious antagonists in this, but it was very sweet to hear them talk about how they had that level of trust. They could do that because they know that they love each other. It's nice. It doesn't seem to be existing in any kind of historical moment other than, I think, according to Wikipedia, anti-LGBTQ rhetoric on social media leads the neighbors to become enemies. So it could be any time. But I think it's timeless, sadly. It's content. Russell Davies, I mean, he's been on the pod. We had a great talk with him about It's a Sin. Yeah. Also famous for Doctor Who and Bringing It Back. And Queer as Folk. And Queer as Folk. I mean, incredible career, but also such an interesting creator because he just does his own thing and seems to have what appears to be, I'm sure he would dispute this, but from our perspective, like a tenure track position with British television. Doesn't he live in the coolest house in Wales that just overflows? He never sees a lock and he writes. In my impression, that's most houses in Wales, but it probably is the nicest one. But yeah, he just writes it all himself. But it is like, it's the type of career that we don't really seem to be able to support in America. I mean, maybe David Simon and Pelicanos were the closest and they're like, we do what we do and we do it for HBO when we're ready to do it. But his curiosity is, not curiosity, but the range of what he likes to write about is wider, certainly, but always worth checking out. The next show I wanted to mention is Youth, which is the new show from, oh, so by the way, Tiptoe comes out October 2nd. Okay. And in five episodes. The next show I wanted to talk about after that is Youth, which is the new show from Sharon Horgan. We didn't talk about the trailer. Good trailer. Good trailer. And this is, Sharon Horgan is essentially, aside from Bad Sisters, which was clearly like a kind of like, like black comedy mystery thriller. She's kind of made a career out of chronicling, different phases and stages of her life from Motherland, which I adore so deeply. Catastrophe with Rob Delaney. Great. And now Youth, which is about love and sex and death in your 50s. Couldn't be us, dog. Looked good. Starts on September 20th, eight episodes. The first two go up. It's on HBO and it looked awesome. Every episode written by Sharon. Also, did you see how deep the cast list goes? Maybe you saw in the trailer. I didn't. First of all, great to see Rupert Friend. But among the guest stars, recurring stars are the great Harriet Walter, who played the kid's mother on Succession. And our number one draft pick, Freddie Fox. Stays working. Can't lose. The one after that, this is really interesting. I guess this is her first HBO series since Divorce, right? Which we didn't really engage with. We did not really engage with that. In fact, I don't even remember who she was getting divorced from. Thomas Hayden Church. Really? Who is now on tires. He sure is on tires. Did I tell you? I don't think I told you this, but I love to do the Thomas Friedman style of research. Just boots on the ground, man of the people. On my recent flight to Seattle, I would say I had visual. In my field of vision, I could see four other people's screens and three of them were watching Tires season three. Was one of them Kaya? Has Kaya been watching? I have. You convert Kaya? You, Andy, converted me. She knew I was already. She or you are hopeless, but it was my. I'm the swing voter. Wow. That's nice, Kaya. Thank you. I need your help on this one. Okay. For one thing, something's going on cosmically. I'm opening my heart to animation. What? Well, first of all, Blue-Eyed Samurai is coming back imminently. You like that more than I do, right? Yeah. But I. Another one grabbed my eye. Another animated show grabbed my eye. Get Eero? Eero? Oh, Get Gero. Yeah. Gero? Is it just. The J is hard? The J is hard in Japan. You were thinking more of a Greek or even a. Spanish. Sure. Animated, anime-style. That's Tony Bourdain's graphic novel. Based on Anthony Bourdain's graphic novel about a dystopian future where chefs are super celebrities. Among the voice talent, Titus Welliver and Justin Kirk. Starts October 3rd. On what channel? Adult Swim slash HBO. And it looked really cool. Did you read this graphic novel? I think I. There was more than one volume, I think. I read the first one. Yeah. I mean, it did combine a lot of my interests. The Age of Apocalypse. The Age of. Battleworld. Sushi. Pretty much me for a period of my life. Here's The Last Batch. Okay. Now, when you say The Last Batch, they are lower on the list because you think they will be less appealing to me or they're more wild cards? As we get. The lower we get, the more I'm like, this could go one of two ways. And are you including like East of Eden in this or because we already talked about that? I didn't include East of Eden. I mean, like, I think it looks lovely, but I didn't know if you were going to be like, stop the presses. East of Eden's on. What about the new Pride and Prejudice? No. I didn't have that on here. No thoughts for that? I guess I don't really know you. It's fine. It's fine. It hurts. I was like, does this new Pride and Prejudice, is this Emma Corrin is in this one? It's Emma Corrin and Jack Loudon. And Dolly Alderton wrote it. Okay. And Olivia Colman plays Mom. And when's that coming out? Soon. First week of October, I think. On Netflix. Well, you can remove either Vision Quest from your list. No, no. Keep talking. Vision Quest. Vision Quest is just weird. Honestly, it could be the last MCU show. I'm not even sure. I have it down here because you and I care so deeply about what happened in Sokovia. Some have forgotten. See James Spader come back as Ultron, or in some capacity. Isn't he just coming back as James Spader in a soundstage, living inside of Paul Bettany's mind? Is he? I believe he is himself. I don't think he is voicing a very expensive drawing of a killer robot. Wait, what do you mean he's coming back? He's coming back as himself. Have you not seen the pictures of the show? No. They've released them, maybe only to select press. There's a picture of James Spader just being blacklist James Spader. Google James Spader Vision Quest. Can we get the camera on Chris's screen, or is that illegal? I think this should be part of it. My understanding of the series is that because Vision has been through some tough times post-Sokovia, this is kind of like a Herman's Head type series. As Ultron in human form in Vision Quest. I thought that's why you brought this up. It's like a Herman's Head. And for robots. And inside of his head, ever since they defeated him, I guess James Spader has been living in his head, which does sound provocative. Well, it's Ultron in human form. I don't know if James Spader looks like that all the time. Looks like what? Well, he's got a giant beard. He looks like he's in Mastodon. I'm going to say something. I like to play it close to the vest. I like to play it safe. My guess is that Ultron in human form looks like whatever James Spader looked like the day they got him to set. He showed up. And they're like, okay, I guess we're doing this. So I'm curious about this. I'm also curious about where this leaves Marvel Television. Here's why I want to go super hard at Vision Quest. How many episodes is it? 105. Truly? I just wrote down Vision Quest bullet point finally. That's me. Here's how I think we should handle Vision Quest. I'm going to propose something to you. I think we should take Kevin Feige at his word with this. Because my understanding, when it was introduced at the D20. Eight episodes, streams weekly. What's it called? D23 or something? I feel like someone said, Vision Quest is essential viewing for Doomsday. So I think we need to cover this show like it's the second season of The Sopranos. I think we need to devote more airtime and more brainpower to the show than anything else on our slot. Okay. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. I think we need to rigorously cover this text. They told me. I don't even want this clipped for social. I want it clipped for personal use so that when you're like, episode two of Vision Quest, I'm out. I won't be out. I won't be out. You're more likely to be out than me. Yeah. This is a character whose charms have escaped me. How many episodes of Secret Invasion did you watch? I think most of it. Okay. How many episodes. Because I kept waiting for it to be like. Good. Parallax view. And it was. It wasn't. Yeah. In retrospect, like, how do we feel about. Now that we know more of this. That the Russos lie to us. Constantly. Chronically. But also just that, like, you know, more of the backstory of, like, how challenging these things were to make and then also how little they paid off in terms of their larger story architecture. What are your feelings this many years on of Captain America and the Winter Soldier? No, it wasn't Winter Soldier. Falcon and Winter Soldier. Well, I mean, I think it would be a very challenging. Challenging. Endeavor. But one could re-watch all of Marvel's TV efforts to see where, like, if there's any hidden gems, if there are any things that we judged too harshly. Right. If, in fact, the things that were good were not actually as good as we thought they were in the moment. You and I have been pretty much off the sauce since WandaVision. You know, I think we have. WandaVision was the first one. No, but I mean, I don't think we've, like, heralded. No, Loki. Yeah, Loki. Loki ruled. Loki was really good. Oh, yeah, that's right. You were crazy about Loki. Crazy about Loki. S1. S2, do you. What was your relationship to S2? Nah. Nah. Miss me with that. I mean, look, who doesn't love a protagonist slowly becoming an all-seeing story tree at the center of the multiverse? Like, that does appeal to me. But I just have. I do have some fond memories. I don't know why I have this nostalgia. It's kind of COVID-y. But, like, watching Falcon and Winter Soldier and then seeing all the lines that were ADR'd off characters' backs while they were changing the plot in real time. Yeah, I mean, like, - It's wild. Even in mid-air, it was something else. It was beautiful. And, you know, Wyatt Russell's John Walker. I enjoy John Walker. Was important. Yeah. I'm going to read you for the last two here. I'm going to read you a log line, and then you tell me if you're interested in this. Okay, hold on. Let me, all right. Set in 1977. I mean, just like us. An Indianapolis man named Tony Karitsis takes a man hostage and phones a local radio reporter and demands to be interviewed on the air. The man who takes the hostage, the hostage taker, is played by Giovanni Ribisi. The radio reporter is Jon Hamm. The television show is American Hostage, which is Sean Ryan and Eileen Myers, who did The Night Agent, and Sean Ryan did The Shield. It's their effort at creating a, like a Ryan Murphy anthology style. Oh, there could be a different American Hostage every week. Every week. Or every season. That's what I mean, sorry. This is an anthology show. Is this an original hostage taking, or is it a historical hostage taking? Historical. It's a true story. It also stars Muriel Enos and William Jackson Harper. It's on MGM Plus. Don't even know if you have that. And it starts September 20th with a two episode premiere. Just based on this cast. Yeah, good cast. The Ribisi handpiece. Ribisi doesn't get out of bed for just anything these days. Yeah. And you've always been a big Giovanni guy. Well, you see him around, and he's always got a cool camera. Do you see him around? He's around. He's around in East LA. He's in the streets. He's outside. And I just love his dedication to keeping old cameras up and working. I think he works on a bunch of IMAX cameras and VistaVision cameras. This is a whole LA I don't know about. Yeah, and he shot Strange Darling, that horror thriller from a couple years ago. He was a DP. Have you invited him on the podcast? No, I think he went on Big Pick for Strange Darling with JT Milner. But this seems cool. Is Ham's part. I mean, I haven't. I haven't seen a trailer. You're hitting me with this, Cole. I didn't even know about the show. I don't think there has been a trailer. But yeah, he plays a 1970s radio reporter, local radio reporter in Indianapolis. Does he leave the radio station? Or did he shoot out his whole season in like a week in a room? Because that would be. That would be very economical for the series going forward. Yes. If the person the hostage taker calls can just wrap out in a couple days. Garrett Dillahunt, I'm nude in my house for the entire season of Lanterns. I think this looks cool. And then this other one, I just can't believe I'm like. Like reading this actual log line. This is called Kill Jackie. And it's on AMC. Okay. Our dearly beloved AMC. Still waiting for that call to run it. The show stars Catherine Zeta-Jones. Okay. It's about a one-time drug smuggler, now art dealer, who gets targeted by a group of assassins. And then she turns the tables by going after the assassins. What? It feels kind of late 90s. It's based on a Nick Harkaway novel, who is John Le Carre's son. Yeah. And it co-stars Daniel Ings. What? This has to be a co-pro. Looks very late 90s, early aughts, kind of tongue-in-cheek comic thriller. Okay. I'm sure you're right. It is a co-pro. It comes out October 2nd. And it looks okay. It looks cool. Ron Perlman's in it. So, Kill Jackie, Daniel Ings. It says it's Amazon Prime. This says AMC. Maybe the walls are collapsing. Interesting. Interesting. Okay. Well. AMC Plus. AMC Plus Amazon. Oh, it's a Prime Video original outside of the United States. That's what you're thinking of. I see. Okay. Well. There's a lot of. And it's Freemantle, which is an international company. But interesting. Yeah. I mean, I think two things. One of the things that you mentioned is a wild card. We'll take flight and we'll be super into it. But I also think we should, in the modern parlance, hold space. Hold space for an 11th show that we don't know about that will furious or the gold us. I have it. You have it already? I already have it. God, you're good at this. High value target, colon, The Hunt for Saddam Hussein, starring Joel Kinnaman, eight episodes on TNT. We're fucking back. Dude. We're fucking back on TNT. Get inside the NBA out of my face. And let Kinnaman hunt Saddam. Was he successful? Yeah. He was, obviously. Eventually. Yeah. How long was his hunt? Eight episodes. I would say, again, I'm not a close scholar of the Middle East. This starts next week, by the way. I'm ready. I don't think. Or this week. Oh, they're waiting. We always like to get involved. It's September 13th. We like to get involved in Iraq right after September 11th. So that's perfect. Very respectful. I, in my, you know, again, my memory might be faulty. I'm not a scholar of the region. But I believe that between the years of like 1970 and his end, Saddam Hussein was. In these streets and bunkers. But like, he wasn't really hiding. You know, he was like, I'm running things, you know. So what was Joel's like pursuit? He apparently is the guy who's like, he's a Saddam expert. And he briefs Bush about it. Like, he's going back and forth. A real hero. He's like, Mr. President, as I was saying on September 10th, hunt for this guy. I'm interested in a version of this story. Yeah. You're all ashamed now. No, I'm not. You're a bit abashed. You were a little too eager. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. 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Ask your prescriber about We Go V, some maglutide injection 2.4 milligrams, a GLP-1. Call 1-833-4-WE-GO-V or visit wegovi.com to view the medication guide and to learn more about We Go V. Why wait? We Go V! Do you want to talk about Lanterns, episode four? Yeah, I do, I do. I'll tell a funny story to start us off here. I was hoping you would. I think this is going to be good for us. People make mistakes. I'm not too big to admit it. And when we, you know, we have a couple of screeners for Lanterns, although I believe. I think we're. I think this, we're cut off. We're cut off, dude. I accidentally watched four ahead of three. And I thought it was good. Because four starts at the end of two. Yeah, and this makes sense. Sequential television. And there were a couple of things that threw me off. One, I was like, you guys are treating Laura Linney's arrival incredibly. Pretty chill about this. Yeah, I was like, that's Laura Linney. And I didn't meet her yet. And yet, it seems like I'm supposed to know who she is and what she's doing here. Were you leaning in at that point? Or did you feel like it was a little bit aggressive to introduce a guardian as Laura Linney in a motel room? I thought it was surprising. Okay. Uh. I also thought it was surprising when. When Sunday's episode aired, this past Sunday's. Or the Sunday. The third episode aired, actually. Oh, oh, yeah. People were like, holy shit. What a portrait of an American family. And I was like, what? Which family? The family that paints each other nude? And then it was like. You know, Jasmine Cephas Jones is so incredible as John's mom. And I was like, was she in that episode? On the phone? Yeah, like when she just was like, John, is that you? So I was like, what am I. Was there like a. A stinger? Post-credits scene? I went and looked. Nope. Because it wasn't up. Correct. And I had missed. Missed. Miswatched them. Okay. It did, though, in a strange way, speak to this sort of like unique way that they're kind of setting up this early part of the season to go flashback episode three, to go standalone episode almost that's kind of from one perspective. It's kind of a fascinating choice. And look, I thought that there were parts of this episode that sang. And I thought that The twists are interesting. I'd like to talk to you about some of the detective work. But tell me what you thought about episode four. First of all, I did watch it thinking of your mishap. Yeah. And I thought that was very interesting for the reasons you just said, which is if you expected the show to kind of be basic paint by the numbers, this does pick up exactly where the other one left. Since I was going into this episode with that in mind, I was even more grateful for the breadth of three, to add more context to it, to get us out of Rushville, to make a larger world than this one investigation. I think that my sense is, my confidence is high that when the season is done, whether we come out loving it, liking it, respecting it, that the scaffolding of how they built a very complicated machine is going to be impressive. And I think that the flashback episode, where it fell, was really clever and really good. And as you said, it's always the relief pitcher metaphor, but playing with delivery and velocity is one of the more powerful tools in the showrunner arsenal. So I thought that was really well done. The density of information in this episode, I think, is pretty high. Both in terms of this opening Sinestro sequence. Yes. Which I thought was excellent, but was rather long. It's a pretty. If you're like a casual fan and don't know much about the Green Lanterns in general, and who the fuck Sinestro is, it's a pretty heady scene to watch. Can you give me any context to it? I know you're a DC guy. Well, no, I mean, I think I'm on the other side of it. I love those scenes, and I love their almost austerity. I think the reference that I would imagine was in the room was, um. Uh. A different Manhunter, the Michael Mann Manhunter, or any Hannibal Lecter movie. That that's how they were going to frame it, and that, you know, as the other characters talk about Sinestro and Hal and that relationship, I think the subtlety of not just his red skin tone in his little slight alien ears, but you understand that this is a father figure and a friend who he loves but can no longer trust. And, like, that's enough. I think deeper, hardcore Green Lantern core heads know, that Sinestro's betrayal involves the color yellow, which is the color of fear, and letting fear into your heart, and how that defeats green, which is all about bravery and fearlessness. And I think they're doing a relatively smart job of keeping that, um, up here. You know, like, in the sort of intellectual sense of, like, we understand that it is both, uh, heroic, but also deeply fucked up to be like, "I'm not afraid of anything." Sure. And that what happens when you let the fear in and where it, where it, where it leads you. So I thought that. I thought that was really artful. I thought, also, in the spirit of, um, the Colonel in Boogie Nights, who I know was a hero of yours, both on screen and off. Sure. You know, he's a man who knows what he likes. Let's put it that way. Right? Sinestro is or the Colonel? No, the Colonel is. Okay. Um, and, you know, to that point, like, I love a what-the-fuck Linda Lofian, uh, set piece. So. Zoe's satellite death? No. Oh. The fucking slaughterhouse. Oh, yeah. That was very, very, very Linda Lofian. There's, there's this thing, and we've been talking about it, and again, because we know him, like, I think we're, we're, we're doing a forensic read of it that maybe is, maybe more, we assume more. Yeah, I mean, even last week we were ascribing a lot of, like, Damon Riderly, like, sort of themes in Damon Lindelof's past work that may have been Vanessa Bade and Kelly or Chris Mundy or Tom King or whatever, you know? Yeah, I, I don't want to miss, I don't want to, like, to, to apportion the credit incorrectly. But again, I do think that there is a step that is a hallmark of Damon's shows and rooms that has filtered into other rooms successfully, which is you reach a point in the breaking of the episode where they're going to go detective. They're going to go after the satellite. If you think about it purely like A to B to C, and then I just have this belief that there's a moment, a pause, and maybe the pause is a day or maybe it's three weeks where no bad ideas in a brainstorm, like, what is the most visually what the fuck we could do here? To earn more of what we want the show to be and a high tech slaughterhouse where everyone's ignoring them. And then a cow comes through a lynchian hell mouth into a white room and then is gorily and bloodily vivisected for a pile of steaks. Pretty good. Is that like portal that the cow walks through the same thing that John goes through to get to his interview? Possibly. I mean, it's similar. And so, you know, if you're watching the show on a different level, you could be like, oh, does that mean that the Manhunter's technology also led John? His guardian technology. Yeah. Or that, yes. Or that John is being set up or something. Sure. There's a deeper, another card to turn. Cool. But also in that moment, it was like Lynch directing, what was the first George Lucas movie? That THX? Yes. THX 138. That one. Like some weird visual crossover of that language and ending in the room with a guy who is not an alien. Like I just, I just really, really. That sequence is awesome. I just vibrate to that. Like, I just fucking think it's so, when they do that in a show that has so many mechanisms like spinning, it just feels like a moment where you can throw your hands up like you're on a roller coaster and enjoy it. So I, for that alone, I really, really liked the episode. But I have other things to say. Well, no, but please you next. No, I wasn't, it wasn't, we don't have to go trade back and forth. I'd love to know what did you think of the Zoey stuff? My concern when you ask me stuff back to back to back is that I think there are. There are people who single channel our podcast and only listen to you. And I'm worried then they're just going to be silence. I remember when we used to do zoom recordings back in. Yeah. And we would record our own audio and send it in. I don't talk that much. Did someone else or did, was it because you were more worried about like aerosols? I was more reflective back then. You know, I wanted to ask about the Zoey stuff because. What do you think? Yeah. I thought. I thought the porno Jack and I've been seeing her, her scene with, with Aaron Pierre and the motel room was very good. Okay. I liked it a lot. I liked this idea of, um, if you take it at face value that everything is all the, all the little blinking lights are pointing to her as the manhunter. Yes. Uh, that the, you know, the Sentinel of destruction could also come in the shape of a, a great healer and a great. Hmm. Um, you know, it would be like, why should we revolt against the manhunter? He's like cured cancer. She's cured cancer. Nobody's sick here. His body looks amazing. Yeah. My body I'm cut, you know, uh, great. Um, he does a lot of protein and, and weight training. I suppose this is a question about whether or not the thing I wanted to ask is whether or not this is, do you feel like this is a lot of work to come up with a red herring? Well, cause it seems like everybody is just like, obviously. It's like, you know, we're going to have to, we're going to have to, we're going to have to, we're going to have to, we're going to have to, we're going to have to, we're going But what's weird is that the red herring was everything else up to this point and we have reached the halfway point of the season. I think that so far, and we'll see how it plays out. So this is not me predicting a reaction to it, but I will say that the, um, the Zoe, the Zoe thread has probably to me been the least successful part of the series, nothing to do with the performer, but you know, the, the relationship between her and John doesn't make any sense to me other than it's what people wanted. Yeah. What writers needed them to do, writers needed them to do so that when she says, this is the last time I'm like, why? I don't understand why it was the first time. I don't really understand why they are attracted to each other. Why someone who is so buttoned up would be relatively reckless in this case. Um, and maybe in, you know, with a brain trust like this, my questions are the questions. Maybe these are the questions we're meant to be asking, but everything was so, um, signposted for it to be her, including the way the camera. Uh, lingered on the bracelet that she left for whatever reason before she got. Vaporized. Potentially vaporized. So, so I, so it, it, and, and then in the, if you're stacking red herrings, them going to chase this guy Hammond and then meeting a guy and then being told that someone else only for them both to say to each other, we both know who it is though. Really? Right. Right. And then my next question is, is this the most interesting thing John Stewart's ever done in his pre-programmed life, which is have sex, not once, but twice with a man, with a, with a, um, pansexual intergalactic. And when did he know? And to what extent is it part of, or in a kind of continuum of behavior and cause and effect that how interrupting his assassination attempt, getting him dishonorably discharged. Oh, right. Sending him in this path to where he's going to become like an architect, but then becomes who's pulling all these strings. Yeah. Who's pulling the strings. I end. And, you know, the culpability of his parents. I'm like, is this a guy rebelling? Is this a guy doing deep undercover detective work? Like, what are we seeing here? Um, and I, I think that the, the third episode gives the fourth episode so much more color when it comes to how jumping out of the car in the last moment and allowing, allowing John to crash into a light pole. You think it'll be okay? I do think it'll be okay, but I just think it's like, for most of this episode, these guys are actually like, you know, they're like, you know, they're like, you know, they're seemingly getting along. Like, I mean, they're at least going along with each other. yeah um now there's like the whole like just take the ring and say the oath and you know that stuff but i i think it was like a a handy good middle season detective episode that had some really good human moments and it had some really good meta human moments like the idea of them being cornered by thugs with guns that shoot darkness that is a pure comic book idea yeah and i loved it and i loved seeing it i wondered though the other feeling i had to this episode was that it was funnier and funnier in the sense of like it was they made it they made a point of underlining cop stuff yeah he's like did you just make a joke because john does make a joke at one point and then there's a moment where they both say set it off as a good movie you know and there's the whole line about you know superheroes don't really lock the door and jazz this can't be good and it's a lot more buddy cop um and i enjoyed that this this is a weird thing we're like i'm not complaining about how clever the script was or how much more enjoyable it is for aaron pierre and kyle chandler to be played but it's a lot more fun and it's a lot more fun and it's a lot off of each other as opposed to playing like almost on top of one another but um the the subsequent feeling that you didn't have because you watched them out of order was that it there's an element of we got the serious stuff out of the way now we can be goofy again yeah i mean it almost felt like a season two episode you know what i mean at times where you'd be like now these two guys are investigating like a crime and this is their patter but you know you can trust that they they love each other it's also the nature of a show that wants to tackle real world issues where i think they were correct to more soberly state the facts in terms of john's role as a black man on earth and also intergalactically and his relationship to his family that wouldn't necessarily have been the time for a lot of you know wink wink jokes but the fact that like it went so if the switch flipped so dramatically from one episode to the next you just felt the difference yeah i thought that like we were asked to kind of consider the idea at the end of the second episode that john can manifest lantern-like powers independent of the ring right or we can continue to continue to right that he is more special than he may even know right like that it's not just he's been training his whole life to do this but he may have some innate gifts that other beings in the galaxy have taken note of and then in the third episode we just go back to his kind of not we just it was a it was an extraordinary like effort to go back and kind of establish why this character is behaving the way he is why how jordan might be behaving the way he is and what context brought these two people together i don't know that i came out of the fourth episode and was like and then this is what we learned coming out of the fourth episode about any of these people but that doesn't necessarily need to happen every episode no i i i and i continue to feel like i would rather have the more humorous human john stewart when we can because i continue to say to feel that like the construction of his backstory is really thought-provoking and interesting and resulted in an excellent episode but i don't believe him as a human because of it sure i don't believe him i mean maybe joel kinnaman could do it if he was hunting saddam hussein but nine months in the bush yeah with one target it's wild it is wild um no wonder he jumps into bed with the first step-grandmother that he can find do you have any other notes you wanted to share before we get we get into after dark no i guess i just feel like where where are you with this show halfway through do you feel like enthusiastic and engaged and eager to see where it goes on a level i look forward to watching it every week and i'm never bored while i'm watching it yeah and that increasingly is becoming something i'm very sensitive to uh like just the do i feel my mind wander am i locked in do i find the performances charismatic and engaging yes yes yes yes yes so even when i'm like that scene was wonky or it seemed like that was like gifted to this this revelation was gifted to them in the or in the to expedite expedite like the plot i instead of like hard work figuring out who the manhunter is i uh i just i just i i really enjoy it but i do know some differences or some basically some flaws here and there what about yeah i i'm i'm loving watching it i think never bored is a very high praise these days to give um i just like the way it handles these ideas i like the way that this this sounds pretty basic but i like the way hal jordan flies i like the thought that was given to that and what it feels like when he says point in the sky and he's gone i really like the sinestro stuff i i like a show that can give us an interesting sinestro and an interesting sheriff kelly mcdonald in the same episode that it's not over waiting one versus the other but actually the thought i had when i was finishing the fourth episode was i do have some regret for not sticking with penguin not because i feel like i missed out on oz cobblepots rise to power but more specifically people genuinely loved that show or really really liked that show let's say right and after one episode i think you and i were like this is very very well done and this might be the best version of this best case but because it is essentially using the the trappings of a crime show but instead of filling it the the new the space created by originality with what something like furious did it filled it with dc and matt reeves lore sure i was okay stepping back the reason i was thinking of it was is there a natural cap on these things you know that are cert that no matter what good intention you're putting into it and how much thought you're putting into an episode like three you are setting up james gunn's man of tomorrow you are dealing with the precepts of you know the dcu or the character's history and whatever and can you overcome them it's a really it's an interesting point i don't and also it's not a bad business model for audiences or for casey at hbo to be like i'm going to you know spend money and attract talent and make the best series of b pluses we can this is also a hit you know yeah yeah i don't this i'm not trying to damn it with faint praise i guess i'm just wondering can it there have been moments that have transcended and moments and not every show needs to i think the dc shows are working generally i mean i i'm not addicted to them like you know i watched a bit probably more than you of penguin yeah and then i think i finished it as well did you did you watch more everyone in peacemaker i i it's fine peacemaker is fun yeah um i don't think peacemaker is like the best show i've ever seen but i definitely like enjoyed what i've watched of it and then it seems like that scholar gonzando show the the jimmy olsen show like that's a really good idea for a tv show to have the american vandal guys make a true crime documentary with jimmy olsen like that's that's like let's take chances with the tv stuff rather than sort of staley going through six episodes only to have a post-credit stinger that somehow links to an avengers show isn't that crazy though like i know this is incredibly obvious but i just hadn't been grouping them together in the same way that we group the mcu tv shows like when you said dc's working on tv it i just was thinking about our jokes about falcon and winter soldier and vision quest like oh my god yes they're working yeah it is incre it is entirely successful especially compared to what marvel became and what they were trying to do and and what they didn't even try to do so i don't know if it's all gun i don't think penguin is in the gun verse it's more like the matt reeves side of things right and for now i think predates gun a little bit it does i still wonder if like the effort of introducing another batman when you have robert pattinson who's just like okay maybe well if they make one of those like every five years i don't it's gonna be six years i think i know it looks cool well that's all that matters to us um all right lioness yeah i gotta ask okay can i set this up for you sure i there were just there were rumblings and disturbances in the force because generally the ambient feedback i get about lioness is that like you know it's all go brother like everybody's having a great time i'll go like the audience or the audience on the carrot yeah yeah and recently it's i've picked up on a sense that there have been some bumps yes that people are not as gung-ho about some things that maybe the season has taken a turn and when we last checked in on joe and her team of bathtub enthusiasts killers this show i had no notes you had no notes you were thrilled um since then and i talked about it with van and we were equally like kind of delighted by the messiness of basically doing two seasons of this show and one where one is they tried to kill joe and they missed and then joe gets her revenge and then there's also another season where they've kidnapped joe and are trying to get her out of the country and her lioness team is looking for her and those are both happening concurrently this season they are and they are like two timelines in two timelines and i would not say evenly distributed and not always clearly demarcated okay so some so in this previous this episode that just happened on sunday there's basically a turn mid mid episode where they bring back our ukrainian russian double agent oh who's living happily in tulsa under the name paige weaver where she shops for one and has uh like a very airbnb'd out you know furnished house in tulsa but she has like one avocado you know just for like one one ukrainian lady who wants to hang out at night you know i mean i feel like one avocado would be pretty exciting in kiev you know what i mean no that's the bread basket of europe isn't it ukraine right now i mean generally read the news brother i know democracy is dead you should say that but i for some reason got served a video of people shopping at a grocery store in kiev and they were like don't let them don't let them fool you we still got groceries they all had six fingers I actually don't know why I got served that. Actually, I do. I know. Because you talk about lioness. And by the way, I am not, just to be clear, before I get aggregated by like pro-Putin forces here, I have no opinion or knowledge of the state of Ukraine's groceries. Yeah. It was more that from my experience, all of Europe is avocado mad and they mostly grow them, I believe, in Spain and Portugal and maybe in North Africa. Okay. Okay? Yes. Kaya, okay. Over the last two weeks, I would say this season has made a decision, a turn. And that turn is this. The CIA is conducting a domestic purge of our government, higher education, and news media to rid them of, I guess, Russian double agents, but kind of not so veiled like communists. Like it is a weird like red scare thing. Where they're like, it turns out like all these people through NGOs and political action committees are getting paid by Russia to indoctrinate our youth and our masses with like woke nonsense. Brother, that's Senator Tommy Tuberville's campaign literature. I know. I got a show for Tom if he's not already watching. And look, I think my tolerance level for stuff like that is pretty high. It is. It is. It is. I can't believe that you're blinking on this. There's been a repeated trope on this show this last two weeks where Joe's heart surgeon, thoracic surgeon husband. I love him. Dave Annabelle. Is in this safe house on an army base where they've been living since the kidnapping attempt. And he does nothing but watch the news. Uh-oh. And he's just like, honey, is this what you were talking about? Like with like these, these professors who are peddling anti-American invective. And she's just like, no, this is only the story that the news wants you to hear. And I, it is, it is like, we've gotten into like episode 400 of the lioness podcast that I'm like, all right guys, like it's not as funny as it used to be. That's amazing. It's amazing. And somewhere I just feel like JD Vance doing the Palpatine meme. Yeah. Where he's just like, yes. Yes. Yes. Uh, kidnapping people and then really delighting and informing them that they will not be Miranda's like being like where I'm sending you and get mom. Like we're doing get most still. He's like, you're going to be like listening to Metallica with no roof for like five years. And then I'm going to come back and ask you again, what I just asked you and see if you have like a better attitude about it. I honestly, that sounds like a kid I knew in high school. Like that is how he spent Miranda. No, that's how he spent high school. The teacher will be like, I'm going to come back and ask you again about fucking of mice and men. Yeah. But wow. Um, so it's tough. And this is a big deal for you to bump on some of this stuff. You know, I'll find out that Joe has been kidnapped by Iranian forces. Um, wow. So it's a hotbed that's going on. And yeah, this one, this one, I, I, I felt like this was not my favorite lioness episode. Just put it that way. And I think a lot, I think, I think a lot of people have joined me in this, in this journey of watching this somewhat very entertaining spy craft show that also has long stretches of political invective. Yes. Yeah. Not a lot of self-reflection. And so the show is sort of advocating for some, for some sort of large, like cultural revolution, if you will, where we purge the academics. Yeah. In order to achieve not communism, not communism. That's cool. Let's do it the other way. So yeah, I can't possibly see the downside. Yeah. It'd be weird, but hopefully this lady in Tulsa is going to figure it all out. She seemed to have all the roadmaps for how the Russians exfil. Oh, I thought you were saying they black bagged her and sent her to Gitmo. No, she just went to Tulsa and witnessed protection, but then they found her because they were like, the Russians are going to kill her. So we got to go find her. I hope they were like, there's only one woman in Tulsa buying fresh produce, not eating, not smoking indoors, not smoking indoors at the bar next to Sterling's house. But I continue to be seated. I'll finish the project. You know, Tim Simons recently started watching Lioness. So I take my influence seriously. What I enjoy most is that our buddy Tim is texting you about his journey with Lioness. At like 11 PM at night. But I'm on the thread. Yeah. And every, so I wake up. You haven't answered at all. Have you? I back channel with him. No, no, but like, I don't answer because I wake up sort of bleary eyed and I throw on the glasses and I look at the text and it's just like a bunch of texts from 1113 that's like, Jesus, no wonder Andy doesn't watch this. I don't know what more I can do. I don't know what more I can add. I feel seen. Yeah. But look, man, we'll, I'll give you the finale recap and we'll kind of see where we're at. Thank you. You know, you're basically doing the, like the, the, the self-reflective DNC deep dive, like what went wrong that they buried. That's right. You're doing the work and they need to hear what you say from your report from the front lines. We'll be back on Thursday. We're going to preview the Emmys. We'll do should win, will win that day. And we'll also talk a little bit about the return of the paper on Peacock. And NBC, I believe, I believe both this time. Yeah. And thanks to Kaya and John for producing us on Labor Day. Hope everybody had a nice long weekend and we'll see you Thursday. Happy holiday. Tram fire offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tram fire is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject Tram fire, proper training is required. 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