The Fall of the USSR, Pt I

This isn't "I Heart" podcast. Guaranteed Human. You gave everything you could give and now it's time to take the next step. Hey, it's Emily Tish Sussman and this season on She Pivots, the podcast where women share bold career moves and personal turning points. I sit down with culture shifting women who share their pivots like Elizabeth Smart. I still feel that dry that I can still make a difference, so I'm gonna keep going. And feminist legend, Lauria Steinem. All of us were trying to express women's real lives. Listen to She Pivots on the "I Heart" radio app Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. On Big Lives, we take a single cultural icon. People like Jane Fonda, George Michael, Little Richard. And we pull apart the story behind the image, discovering forgotten interviews that changed exactly how we see these giants of our culture. We're here for the messy, the brilliant, the human version of our heroes. I'm Immanuel Jochi, I'm Kai Wright, and this is Big Lives. Listen to Big Lives on the "I Heart" radio app Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Did you think you were the only one? Like no matter what you did, it was never good enough for your mother. I'm Jennifer Arnees and this is the Black Mother Wound Podcast, where we unpack and heal from the very first relationship that shaped us. We rush to accommodate other people when we have been hurt and our hurt has not been healed. Listen to the Black Mother Wound Podcast from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the "I Heart" radio app Apple Podcast and wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of "I Heart" radio. Hey and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's here too. And we're just a few Cold War kids working out our ongoing fascination with the Soviet Union. That's right. This is a, man, it's been a long time since we've done a two-parter. I was trying to remember the last time we did this. Probably ADHD. Yeah, maybe. I'm weirdly excited by a two-parter for some reason. Yeah, it is a little weird. It feels like less work, even though it's not. It's fun also to tackle something and like really understand it even further, you know? No, I totally agree. Like smashing this into a single 45-minute episode would have short-tripped it, I think. You know what we did. We scored it with a sickle and then smashed it down the middle with the hammer. Wow. Look at you. Yeah. So we are talking about the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, the USSR, for some reason, the CCP in Russia, Soviet Russia. I mean, how many times are we going to do Yakov Smirnoff in this episode? I'm going to try not to do it once. Yeah. Well, you do a better Yakov Smirnoff than me, so I hope you will. Although Branson, the very nicest time of the year. There you go. So, yeah, and in the, I think the, basically 1990 to the very beginning of 1992, this superpower, one of two superpowers in the world. The way that the world was aligned was based on these two superpowers. One of them just fell over and was gone in the blink of an eye. Like really quickly. Yeah. I mean, like just breathtakingly fast, it went away. And not just the country, this superpower, but also the Soviet communism itself. It was just gone, Chuck, just gone, gone. And the end of an ideal, the end of a Cold War. Like it was, you know, I can't think of anything that was bigger since the end of World War II geopolitically. Like this had to be the biggest thing. I think absolutely, for sure. The best part about it, though, at least as far as the world was concerned, it didn't take a nuclear World War III to make, to bring the Cold War and the bipolar, I guess, orientation of the world to an end. Yeah, and it was a top-down thing, like it wasn't an uprising. Although, as we'll see, like on the Eastern Black, there were definitely some uprisings and things that happened as a result. But the whole thing started as a top-down thing because of one guy. Because of Michele Gorbachev. It's a Gorbachev? Oh, he said Gorbachev. It was, I always heard both throughout our youth. All right, great. So I'll just say both. It was called Gorby. Yeah, that's right. It was because of a series of decisions that he made to not fully westernize the Soviet Union, but to loosen the reinsum, to get a little capitalism in there, to get a little more transparency, relax the reins on the, you know, the hard fist of the Soviet regime, to kind of just have a newer sort of softer Soviet Union moving forward. And boy, he, I don't know if he didn't fully think it through, or if it was just the domino effect was so fast, I'm sure he was probably like, wow, I didn't think this was going to happen. Yeah, he's just standing there like looking guilty. Well, the whole room has just fallen down around him because he touched something he wasn't supposed to, kind of. Yeah, for sure, but it all sort of started with these two major reforms that he set out to establish, which was in Russian, it would be Perestroika and Glasnod. But to us, that would be restructuring and transparency. And I guess we should talk about the restructuring first. Yeah, Perestroika. One more thing I do want to say about Gorbachev before we move on is, I didn't see anything anywhere that suggested that he, this was secretly purposeful. I think you're absolutely right. I think he was completely taken off guard by the, the consequences of these pretty legitimate and good ideas at the time because Gorbachev inherited a USSR that, that was in deep stagnation by the mid 1980s, right? Yeah. It was a planned economy and it had been moving along in that direction for decades. But by this time, by the 80s, it was just, it was not in good shape. And so, like you said, to kind of like jumpstart the socialist economy, not replace it, but jumpstart it, he was willing to implement some Western style free market ideas. Yeah. I mean, he was a very progressive guy for Soviet Russia. So it was the late 80s where he launched this, like we mentioned the first thing, the restructuring or the Perestroika. And that was to sort of, that was sort of the economical, political side of things to kind of loosen the grips a little bit because he was like the reality of what our ideals are and what's really going on. Like, there's a big gap there. So he thought maybe if we have this program of like political renewal and maybe some ethics and morals being introduced, like, and it's like systematically, then maybe we can improve what's going on here. And that was what Perestroika was supposed to be about. Yeah. And Glastos, both of them together. But that, so that planned economy chuck, here's what Gorby inherited. So you have the rubble, which was the official currency of the USSR. It was not accepted or recognized outside of the USSR or outside of the Eastern block, I should say, outside the iron curtain. Yeah. Big problem. It is a big problem. Number two, the Soviet government was responsible for deciding how much of what any given thing was made in any given year, right? It wasn't based on supply and demand. It was based on a planned economy. Yeah. They also set prices for those things. So if you put all those things together, the Soviet economy had no way of signaling who needed what, where, when. And so there were shortages everywhere. There was lots of waste. And there were very few businesses. All the businesses in this planned economy were owned by the state. There were very few of those businesses that didn't need to also be propped up artificially because they were just losing money left and right. Yeah. So I mean, like you said, what he inherited was in bad shape already. One of the reasons, and you know, I remember this is something we had heard a lot like growing up as Gen Xers, was that the Soviets are trying to keep pace in the Cold War and the space race and everything else. And they can't, they can't keep up that spending like we could there in the West. And that was true. All that government spending put a real dent in their financial outlook. The war and invasion of Afghanistan over a 10 year period from 79 to 89 was very costly. And then Chernobyl. I mean, we'll talk a little bit about just the cost of like the, I guess, ethical cost of the cover up and what that did to dent their image like within, you know, Russia and the Soviet Union. But it literally cost a lot of money, like at least $18 billion, like 1986 dollars to, to clean it up, to contain it. And that was on top of everything else like the straw that broke the camel's back. Yeah, that was a big deal for them for sure. Did you ever see that Chernobyl miniseries with Jared? I can't remember his last name. Jared Harris. Yeah, one of the finest actors of all time, I think. You bet your butt I did. It was outstanding. Outstanding. I wish all many series were that good. Yeah, it was one of the best ones I'd seen. Yeah, agreed. So again, Parastroika is, is Gorby coming along and being like, okay, we're in big trouble. We need some money fast and we need to just make some adjustments. So some of those adjustments were basically, this was huge. Like these were incredibly radical with the backdrop of the Soviet economy, right? One was allowing companies from outside the USSR to start up businesses in the USSR and they would be joint ventures co-owned by the company and by the Soviet Union, right? Yeah. So now all of a sudden you have new expertise, new ideas, new innovation, new stuff. Better stuff. High quality products coming in and a bunch of money outside investment coming into the USSR. That's a pretty good idea, right? Yeah, that was a good idea. As part of that, he said, or maybe we should also get like the locals involved. So hand over some of the ownerships of some of these state run enterprises that we've had, which is basically all business, right from the government only owned by the government to a locally elected workers collective or a series of them. Right. And so that meant that you could have private business in the Soviet Union for the first time. And then the other one was, you know, you mentioned that they had like quotas for companies. They didn't look at market corrections, like supply and demand to indicate how they should run stuff. They said, all right, maybe we should allow businesses to like, you know, instead of having shortfalls of stuff that we really need, maybe they should fulfill beyond the quotas for a change. And you know, you got to make the amount set by the quota. But beyond that, you could continue making that stuff if there's demand for it. For sure. Okay. So these are very radical ideas. But had he just gone with Perestroika? My money is on Perestroika alone would not have torn down the USSR. I think it was a combination and probably more than anything. It was really glass-nost that did it. The problems with Perestroika were immediately apparent. There were by investing more power into the republics that all made up the Soviet Union. They started to withhold tax payments that were supposed to go to the central government, right? They were kind of a little bit emboldened, I guess, by that little extra power they were given. Yeah, for sure. Some of the ministers who had run these places for the government were now running them kind of like as private citizens. And they started looting industry, however they could. It just immediately started. And then the old quota system was what they had in place of supply and demand. But no one under the Soviet regime had any idea what other stuff you could use for supply and demand. Plus the rubble was still artificially controlled so they didn't have any market signals. Nobody knew what the heck was going on at this point. Yeah. I mean, it was all brand new. And we'll talk about this later. But you can't just flick a switch overnight and say all of a sudden we're a more free market economy. Let's just see how that works because it had been so long. And so entwined in the government's iron fist. It was just a mess. And so the economy started just going bananas and all sorts of weird ways. And the government tried to rein that in by spending a lot to try and like outmaneuver all the weird things that were happening. And it was just a big mess kind of right off the bat. Yes. So it was a mess. But the Soviet Union's economy was already a mess. And I don't think just Perestroika would have done what happened. It took glass nots to my opinion to bring down the Soviet Union. Should we keep going right now? Are you kidding me with a cliffhanger like that? Okay. Oh man. I was like, we're taking a message break and you're like, Hey man, you convince me immediately. Yeah. That's a great cliffhanger. We're going to come back and explain what glass nots to us right after this. That call was really pivotal for me. Hey, it's Emily Tish-Susman. And this season on She Pivots, the podcast where women share bold career moves and personal turning points that changed everything. I sit down with culture shifting women who share their pivots like Para-Elimbian Allie Truett. I was like, I'm on out from a shark attack. There's no way in 11 months I'm making the verilandics advocate Elizabeth Smart. I still feel that I try that I can still make a difference, so I'm gonna keep going. Celebrity chef Carla Hall was that scary to walk away from such a stable career after just two years? No. I was more afraid of being unhappy than I was broke in a dead and job that I didn't enjoy. And feminist legend, Gloria Steinem. We need a meeting place of our own. And if I can contribute to that, I'd like to maintain that and leave this house for that purpose. Listen to She Pivots on the iHeart Radio App Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. People like Jane Fonda, George Michael, Richard Pryor. And we pull apart the story behind the image. And we do this by digging through the BBC's Fast Archive. We're talking iconic moments in broadcast history. I'm not just a boxer. I'm educating. I can talk all week on millions of subjects. And forgotten interviews that change how we see these giants of our culture. Well, if changing the system from the ground up is revolutionary, then I'm revolutionary. And we want to go on stage. I like to dress as slutty as possible, because it makes me dance better for some reason. I'm Emmanuel Jochi. I'm Kai Wright. And this is Big Lives. Listen to Big Lives on the iHeart Radio App Apple Podcast or wherever you get podcasts. Hi, I'm Dr. James Stout. You might know me as a host of the podcast. It could happen here. Now I'm hosting a brand new show called Natural Courses, where we explain how going outside is political. And look at how we can live together with nature and take care of one another in a world that's on fire. You know, we feel uncomfortable saying something like culture and wildlife, but that's what it is. I've ridden my bike around Rwanda, pecoraptic glacial rivers in Alaska, and skin dye for scallops and the Pacific. Along the way, I've learned a deep respect for nature, its traditional custodians, and the importance of preserving what we have for all of us to enjoy. I think that's long in the desert, man. Nothing goes to waste. My show we're going to explain how a tick can make you sick and how a lizard might be able to help you. And what mountain lions might be able to teach us about zombie deer? We'll get into touching grass too. The howls, y, and the wear of planning your own backcountry adventure. And enjoying the land we all get to share. Just walking back from the dancing, it's like midnight. You can see the very faint out night into the aurora. What a magical place. Listen to Natural Courses on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Alright, Josh T's Glasnost, and that was the second part of the one-two punch to try and introduce a new style of government in the Soviet Union. And this, you know, calls for this kind of started coming after the Chernobyl cover-up in '86. And the whole idea behind Glasnost was more transparency, like I said, that's what the word means. So relax some of this, you know, very notorious state censorship of everything. And so once that was done, all these social ills that plagued the Soviet Union started to be exposed a little bit in the media. So, you know, like mass famine, the gulags, you know, the Soviet history basically kind of being realized for the first time and displayed for people to make their own, like, judgments on it was a good idea. But again, once those floodgates were open, it was, like, turned out to not be a very good idea. Yes. So, I believe Gorbachev was a true believer in the idea that the Soviet Union needed greater freedom of speech and greater freedom of the press. I think you truly believe that. I do too. This was also calculated politically as well. And his position was, okay, if I can have an open conversation with the Soviet people about the need for reforms and all the stuff we need to implement because of these problems we have, they're going to support my policies and plans and me. And by doing that, I will be, I will pull the levers of power away from the conservatives who have managed to hang on to power and keep things as they were stagnated in trouble by that censorship, by the silence, silencing of critics, by intimidation and actual violence. Like, if I get people talking openly about the problems, then we can have real change. So, it was politically calculated even though we did almost certainly actually believe that it needed to happen too. Yeah, for sure. But the thing is, like what you're saying was the conservatives had managed to hang onto that power by keeping things as they were, which wasn't great, but it was stable in a way. Like, it wasn't chaos. It was highly controlled and that's the way they liked it. So to disrupt that system was, you know, it was pretty bold move. He himself, he was part of the, what was known as the Nomenclature, which was the sort of the upper echelon of Soviet society. It's like the elite bureaucrats and they had, they had perks that other people didn't have. Obviously, they had like, you know, estates and they had nicer cars and things like that. And that was not a part of the communist experiment, the communist idea or this idea of social equality. And I think he had spent so much time in his career in the Nomenclature that he really was out of touch with what was going on for the average sort of day-to-day life of the average Soviet. Yeah. So he knew enough to know that they were suffering and weren't fully aware of why, but he had no idea of just how much their suffering was promoting a desire for real, real change. Yeah. Not even like small incremental change, or even semi-big change like he was proposing, but so weeping change essentially. And that's what he found out once he opened up class nost and it wasn't immediately adopted. I think the press actually kind of hung back for a little while at first like, is this trap? Are you trying to, are we going to be arrested? And he was like, I know, I think he said at some point like, there's no subject that's off the table. Everything is open for discussion and very quickly the press started to do what they're supposed to do. They began reporting on the ills of Soviet society. Yeah. I mean, it was a crazy thing to do looking back. Yes. Because all of a sudden the media is writing about food shortages and writing about the rampant alcoholism and the pollution and the mortality rates will get to some stats later on, but the second tier sort of position of women in Russian and Soviet society, state crimes. A lot of that was like under Stalin's rule obviously, but that stuff was still going on. And so all of these sort of true believers, and as you'll see, especially in Mother Russia, the Eastern bloc sort of had other ideas, but especially in Mother Russia, like this is something they really believed in and they had never received this information. So it was easy if you were in the United States or in the West to be like, they have no idea what's going on in their own country. Because everything is being censored, but they really didn't. And you know, if you're living in a smaller town or a village and you're looking around, you might see some ills, but if you're reading about how everything is great, then it's going to, you know, slant your opinion of it all. Yeah. And even more than that, as we'll talk about in a little while, a lot of Soviets' identities were rooted in the Soviet experiment that now have been exposed as being based on torture and executions and the starvation of millions and millions of peasants, you know, like that, it would shook them to their core. It wasn't just like a loss of faith in their government. It was a loss of faith in their own, their themselves, I guess, in some cases. Yeah, for sure. And you know, like I mentioned, especially in Russia, because that was sort of the center of the Soviet Union. But once this happened in these formerly independent satellite states, like you said earlier, I think you really underestimated how ready they all were to really break free and sort of rise up. And, you know, there were some deep-seated like ancient hostilities and rivalries among some of these Soviet states that were forced to be together, because they were part of the Soviet Union. And, you know, a good example you found was the ethnic Albanians and the Serbs. They had hated each other since the 14th century, since the Battle of the Field of Blackbirds. But as a part of the Soviet Union, they were, you know, supposed to be fellow countrymen. So as soon as they got the chance to hate each other again, right, they did. And that's why there was so much fighting in the Balkans, like for basically all throughout the 90s, once this happened. Yeah, because the Soviets no longer forced them together, and they were like, okay, it's on. Let's start committing atrocities. And they all did. The other thing that really kind of happened with class notes was the exposure of Western media, Western pop culture. Yeah, yeah. Like this was not something that people had in the USSR had like really been exposed to at this point. Did you ever see that documentary where somebody was smuggling like Chuck Norris movies into, I think Bulgaria or something like that? And they credited like these bootleg American movies is essentially like creating unrest among the youth in leading eventually to revolution? No, because they were like, wow, there's a guy like Chuck Norris in the world that we don't know about. Yeah, essentially Chuck Norris Rambo, like they went crazy for it. And they also now saw the Western view of their country and their culture. And they were like, wow, this maybe maybe you are pretty backwards. We don't have anybody like that. Well, I mean, you know, and I'm not saying this ingest, because you know, how much I love Billy Joel. But that, I think it was a couple of concerts he did in the Soviet Union. Yeah. That was a really, really big deal. Like no Western artist had ever performed there. And yeah, I think that made a big difference, you know, as far as opening people's eyes to Western culture. Yeah, I think Metallica did too. Oh, did they? Later, obviously. Yeah, a little later, but you know, it might have been before the fall of the Soviet Union, but probably right around the time. And Al, I mean, once they found out that Al was on TV, they're like, it is over for communist Russia. Well, the big thing that really allowed the the satellite states outside of Russia itself to really, I guess, feel like they had a real chance at uprising was when Gorbachev renounced the Brezhnev doctrine, which was the doctrine that said, hey, we're going to defend everybody here. We're going to defend socialism with this massive army. We're all together. The Soviet bloc is as one and we will all defend each other, sort of like a NATO thing. And in its place, Gorbachev was like, you know, you guys pursue your own reforms and, you know, govern, govern with the support of the people, like all these satellite states. And again, just the pedal to the metal that happened after that. And once the they knew that they didn't have Moscow's military support, like removing that show of force, that was kind of holding everything together. So once that went away, it just started to crumble. Yeah. Now I think you've created a really good cliffhanger. No. So what do you say? Should we take our second break here? Yeah, let's do it. Okay, we're going to do that, guys. Chuck just agreed. Hey, it's Emily Tish Sussman. I sit down with culture shifting women who share their pivots, like Para Olympian Alley Truett. I was like, I'm on out from my shark attack. There's no way in 11 months I'm making the Valentics advocate Elizabeth Smart. I still feel that drive that I can still make a difference. So I'm going to keep going. No, I was more afraid of being unhappy than I was broke and in a dead in job that I didn't enjoy. Listen to She Pivots on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. People like Jane Fonda, George Michael, Richard Prior and we pull apart the story behind the image. I'm not just a boxer, I'm educated, I can talk all week on millions of subjects. We're here for the messy, brilliant, the human version of our heroes. When I go on stage, I like to dress as sluts as possible, because it makes me dance better for some reason. I'm Immanuel Jochi. I'm Kai Wright. Listen to Big Lives on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcast or wherever you get podcasts. No matter what you did, it was never good enough for your mother. Yeah, I'm Jennifer Arneese and we're talking about that and more on the Black Mother Wound Podcast. We rush to accommodate other people when we have been hurt and we have not healed. Our hurt has not been healed. We're going there. On the Black Mother Wound Podcast, we center the stories of Black women as we heal and unpack how the painful relationship with our mother impacts our choices, decisions and life in every way. These are the conversations your inner little girl has been waiting for. We're gonna go deep, cry a little, or a lot, and yeah, laugh too, 'cause baby. Listen to the Black Mother Wound podcast from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, Chuck, so where we last left off, was when Gorbachev abandoned the Brezhnev doctrine that said, "We're gonna show up with our military if there's any unrest in any of the satellite states or republics." And without that show force, that was probably, like you said before the break, the thing that really kind of gave rise or gave support to these nationalist movements. And each time one of the, like the satellite states, so we're focusing now on satellite states. We should differentiate. So there were 15 republics in the USSR, it included like Latvia, Estonia, Turkmenistan, a bunch of others. And then there were satellite states that were ostensibly independent countries like Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Poland, Albania, a few others. Those were considered satellite states. And you put all of them together, so you have the USSR with the 15 republics and the satellite states. Now you have the Eastern block in all that's behind what they call the Iron Curtain. That whole portion of the world was turned in on itself, had turned its back on the rest of the world, and was focused on its own socialist experiment, aside from helping out other countries that wanted to try their own socialist experiments, which is why there was secret fighting in like Nicaragua and why Cuba had nuclear missiles aimed at the United States. For the most part though, the Eastern block paid attention to itself and kept the rest of the world out. That's right, and kept them in, but once there was freedom of movement and travel from behind the Iron Curtain, this was like a really, really key to like the weakening of the Union. And they were like, you know what's really nice is Budapest, and that's just a handful of hours by train into Austria. So all of a sudden you had tens of thousands of East Germans defecting. Most people wanted to stay in their houses though, like people want to live where they have lived their whole lives, so it wasn't like everybody left, like citizens of other Soviet republics, East Germans, but most of them wanted to stay in their homes, but they wanted things to be different. So as soon as sort of the door was open politically, and all of a sudden you could vote for different candidates, like those candidates completely swept every election that happened. Yeah. Poland was the first one. It's also probably the best example of them all, because being in the Eastern block, there was one party. When you went to vote, you voted for one party, and that was the Communist Party of the Soviet Union. Even if you had an independent country, the Communists had your country, your government on lockdown, right? And at one point, as part of like the series of decisions that just took this rolling snowball and just turned it into an avalanche, was Gorbachev saying no longer are alternative parties outlawed, we can have other parties, and that first started in Poland with the Solidarity Party, which had been a trade union for a decade or so, and had turned into a populist anti-authoritarian party. And now that it was possible for Solidarity to run against the Communists, like you said, the board was just totally swept by then. And that, like, Valenza, yeah, I remember. I mean, all this stuff was on the news, but I was in late high school into early college, and that wasn't, you know, I wasn't paying attention, like I do, you know, as you get older, I think, same as most people. You didn't have a Solidarity Party t-shirt in the, it looked like a smurn off label, but I remember, you know, all of this stuff was in the background, always, on the news. Yeah. But yeah, once the Solidarity Party had a chance to run, it was, it was a sort of partially pre-election, because what they did was they said, all right, you can have a new party, but it's not just for 100% of the available seats. The Solidarity Party can have up to 35% of the seats in their, you know, the Polish equivalent of the House of Representatives or House of Commons. The other 65% were still reserved for the Communist Party, so they would still hold on to the power, and then they also had a newly created Senate, so 100 newly created Senate seats. And Solidarity won 99 out of the 100 Senate seats. The one independent, that one later switched to Solidarity, and they completely obviously filled the 35% allotment that they were, well, allotted in the House, and the Communists were so impopular, they didn't even get all the votes they needed to fill the other 65%. Yeah. Yeah. So Solidarity showed the rest of the world like, we have been under the Communist Thumb, the Soviet Thumb, we don't want that. Not only do we want to be independent, we don't want to be Communists anymore. And they weren't after that. I mean, once Solidarity came into power, Poland very quickly was like, we're not associated with them anymore, everybody. Come on over to Poland, we have amazing sausages, and all sorts of other good things that you'll find out when you get here. That's right. We're, please, no jokes. We've heard about all that stuff, but yeah, leave those at home. Right. Our submarines do not have screen doors on them. That's right. I've never understood that. I've always meant to look that up on why that was a thing. Oh, because if you, like once it submerged, all the water would come through the screen door. No, I remember jokes about Polish people. I never knew the background to that. I think they just got picked on. It's one of those things where it's like, so this group has all the jokes against them. So then you start to just think they're all stupid, so that just begets more jokes against them, I think. It's like Detroit. Yes, exactly. I'm just kidding Detroit. We love you. So the Berlin Wall comes down, obviously, that was a big deal. Germany was reunified, you know, sort of been a model of the West, and that was just like, that was less than a year after the Polish elections of 1989. So like things were really happening at a fast clip. Yeah. The leader of Bulgaria retired. The Czechoslovak government was replaced. The only place, kind of shockingly, that you had a bloody revolution was in Romania and I'll just ask you, yeah, took that happened in a few months in 1989, all of that. All of those satellite states just communism fell. So I mean, I can't, I wish I'd been a little older. I remember when the Berlin Wall fell, and I was like, Mom, we got to go. We got to get on a bridge. We have to get there. This is amazing. She wanted to so bad, but she just, we didn't, you're like, I've always wanted to see these Germany exactly, and this is our only chance. But I wish I'd been a little bit older, so I could be, so I could have paid attention to this because I can't imagine what it was like paying attention to this over just these few months from the time that Poland's elections were held in June to the end of 1989. Like just country after country's communist regimes fell. And like you said, only Romania's turned bloody and you can pretty much fully blame the Chesky regime for, for starting it. They started it essentially. Yeah, he was the remaining dictator there, Nikolai Chesky, and his wife, Elena, who was also appointed in a high office by her husband. So they were, you know, they were a power couple, I guess, but they had mass protests breaking out. And Chesky went to the military and he said, kill him, fire on these unarmed civilians. And he thought that would have been like, all right, we're going to quash this really quick. But the military was like, bro, that's, we're not into that. And so they defected just like a few days after he ordered them to fire upon them. Not only did they not do that, they defected to the protestor side. And he and Elena saw their writing on the wall and they're like, we need to get the heck out of here. But the military caught them, technically had a military tribunal, it was a pretty short form though. And they were found guilty and executed by firing squad. Yeah. And strong upside down by their ankles for public viewing. Yeah. Harsh stuff. There was a rumor too. Do you remember hearing this that Chesky's were fed to dogs after they were dead? And that is a rumor from what I can tell it did not happen. But the reason that rumor came about is twofold. One, Chesky was very famous, especially in Romania, for having appointed his favorite Labrador as a general. Yeah. So there's a dog theme with that. And then he was blamed specifically for the terrible problem with feral packs of dogs, There used to be family dogs roaming Romania at 10. like killing children and stuff. Right? Like it was a bad problem. And the reason why it existed was because he had ordered a bunch of villages bulldozed so he could build these new agri-technical centers. And then after he bulldozed them and before he could build the centers, he just kind of lost interest and it moved on. And so a lot of people lost their homes, so did a lot of dogs and that's where they got their feral dog problem from. Yeah. And then I remember this, I will never forget it. This wasn't like a jog my memory. I think about this joke every, I don't know, you're in a half, I would say. Dennis Miller. Yeah. Do you remember that? I do. I was, I thought Dennis Miller was very, very funny when he was a SNL news guy. Yeah, not bad, but he was never funnier than when he was on Monday Night Football. Yeah, God. Yeah, what was the Chow Cheska joke? So yeah, on Weekend Update, on Saturday and at Live like a couple weeks after the Chow Cheskies were executed and the rumor was that they were fed to the dog. Dennis Miller said that Purina had released a new product, Puppy Chow Cheskie. Yeah. And you remember that one? What happened next? Well, I mean, this is the end of 1989, basically, and the only communist state still left west of the Soviet Union was Albania. And you know, Gorbachev could have like stepped in, he had a very non-intervention no-list way about him. I think he knew also that like the Genie was out of the bottle and like trying to bottle it back up as impossible and resuming the Cold War again is a bad idea. Yeah. So he stayed out of it and you know, it felt like he said in just a handful of months, like right before the World's Eyes. Right. And so far, we're talking just satellite states, already independent, ostensibly independent nations, took their independence back in 1989. The USSR is still together. And Gorbachev is not pushing for it to break up. He's kind of trying to figure out how to balance these reforms he just introduced with keeping the USSR together and it proves impossible for him. Yeah. I mean, he sees what's happening all around. And you know, he abandoned communism basically. He voluntarily devolved power. Yeah. Which again, just all these years later, it looks like a crazy thing to do. But just seeding all that power when all they had ever known and all the west had ever known was just just how powerful the Soviet Union was in controlling everything. And to just loosen the knot on all of that was just really a pretty wacky thing to do. Yeah. I mean, especially unilaterally, I don't know quite enough about modern Russian history to know who else like who his advisors and aides were. Yeah. Yeah. So it basically just seems like this is Gorbachev doing it himself. And I'm sure he did have help. But in the end, it was Gorbachev doing this himself. Like this wasn't some coalition with other people. Like he was the head of the Soviet, the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, the CPSU, the ruling body of the entire Eastern block at one point up until very recently, he used his position as the head of the CPSU to dissolve the CPSU. It was as simple as that. And once that happened, if you don't have the party who is pushing everybody around and censoring everything, if they don't exist anymore, now it's a free for all. And that was what he did at the, I think, the end of 1990. Yeah. He created a what we would think of as the House of Reps in their Congress of people's deputies that was, you know, mostly kind of fairly elected, at least compared to what it had been. He ended like we said earlier, you know, we opened it up to other political parties, which is just going to completely weaken the grip of communism by virtue of doing that. And then he created an office of president. He appointed himself president. So it's not like he was elected, but this was in March of 1990. And it was a brand new office. And, you know, that was a big deal. It was to have like an eventual elected president. It was. And the reason why he did that is because he dissolved the Communist Party. So he couldn't be the head of the USSR because he was the head of the Communist Party. If the Communist Party didn't exist anymore. So now he's like, I call president of the USSR. He also introduced elections. So each of the 15 republics had what's called the Supreme Soviet, which was their own parliament. And he said, hey, guys, why don't you start having free elections with alternative parties legalized. And let's see what happens. I'm Gorby. I'm pretty sure that the USSR is going to want to stay together. And I hope you didn't put any money on that because he would have lost big time. Yeah. And, you know, we already covered kind of what Poland kicked off. The Baltics really helped set it on as well. Pretty much immediately. Lithuania said, all right, we're succeeding. We're not a part of the USSR anymore. That is a March of 1990. Very quickly after Latvia and Estonia said, yeah, we're going to secede to the Georgians did, the Armenians did. And these were, you know, kind of small time as far as the the might of the Soviet Union. Like, they could have still had a Soviet Union after this, even with these, I guess, secessionists. But it was really Ukraine. Like, Ukraine was a, was and is a very big and powerful country. And just second after Russia. And so that is a, that's why, you know, after Ukraine, I think they held a referendum in 90% of the voters voted for independence. And after Ukraine left, the writing was really on the wall. But that's also why, if you just want some modern context of why Putin has, why Ukraine means so much to him personally. Right. Is because Putin is, is of the old, you know, as we'll see later when he came into power. It was on a wave of nostalgia for the old days. And Ukraine, leaving was a real big thorn in his side and just the side of sort of their history, the Soviet history. Yeah. He said publicly that it's ridiculous. Estonia is an independent country. Like, he does not see these as independent countries. He sees them as, um, republics of the Soviet Union that should be brought back together with Russia. Right. And that's what happened. I mean, this is so 1989. You saw the satellite states break out of the Eastern block. And then now 1990 to 1991. Now it's happening with republics, like actual, the actual Soviet Union is starting to break up because the republics states are now saying we're independent. We're not part of the USSR anymore. And now, now, everyone's looking to Russia, which being a Cold War kid, I always basically used Russia and the Soviet Union as interchangeable. But Russia was a republic of the Soviet Union far and away the most powerful one. That's where the seat of Soviet government was. But it was still a republic, just like Latvia and Estonia. And so now everybody's like, okay, what are you going to do? You guys going to try to carry on as your own kind of Soviet Union? You're going to start World War 3. What's going on next? And I say Chuck that we end this episode here. Yeah. That's the end of part one, everybody. And as for tradition, we don't do listener mails at the end of a part one. I think we just say, you know, tune in on Thursday, right? Yeah. We go out and stun silence. I feel like we don't usually say anything. It's been so long. We know it's the one that handles this. Yeah. Yeah. I know. But it's fun watching. So thank you, everybody. 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