The Failed Business - Trev Keane

[Music] Hello and welcome to TechJes, the sports tech podcast. I'm Rebecca Hopkins, CEO of the SDA Group. And I'm Alex Dibble, a sports broadcaster who's worked with tech startups in sports and other sectors. This season is all about finances and failure. We're speaking to sports tech entrepreneurs about the financial journeys they and their companies have been on. The highs, the lows and the lessons. We hope these conversations are valuable in helping other entrepreneurs and anyone thinking of taking the plunge, avoid dangerous pitfalls and set themselves up for commercial success. This season of TechJes is sponsored by sports tech HQ in Indiana. Sports Tech HQ, the home of sports, is building the largest cluster of sports technology companies in North America. In this industry, proximity matters. You want to be where the teams, leagues and decision makers actually are. Indiana is home to dozens of sports organizations that rely on technology to run smarter, move faster and stay competitive. Don't get lost in the noise, build where the sports industry actually lives. Learn more at STHQ.org. Our guest for this episode is Trev Keane, the co-founder of Phoenix Group. Phoenix works in gaming, connecting global brands to Gen Z or should that be Gen Z and Alpha audiences through immersive world experiences. On platforms such as Roblox and in games like Formula E, Electric Lab. Oh Trev, thank you so much for joining us. Trev, you worked for 15 years in the fund management industry. What made you think I've had enough? I'm jacking this in the world of sports tech enterprises calling me. I'm shifting industries. Yeah, firstly I have a chance to have me on and looking forward to our chat. Everybody when their young has ambitions and a path they want to go. I guess in some way we're even though people don't think it's your field by the decisions you make at a 15, 16, 17 year old. And my passion was always sport. And that finished my master, I finished my degree in accounting and finance. And from there, I actually hit on a 15 year journey in an industry I did not like. And an industry I wasn't passionate about, I guess, you know, it did it gave me skills like, you know, how to structure things, how to look at numbers. I was afforded the opportunity to work in Australia and in Scotland through it, but I was never passionate about it. And, you know, you fast forwards, you know, almost 17 years after that 2010. And, you know, my my my father was always kind of sick when we were going up, but he passed away. And I wasn't quite sure what to do. He was a bit more of a traditional traditional man didn't want kind of his eldest son to be, you know, too around too close to it. My mother was a nurse, my sister was a scientist, so they were very involved in the process. So I actually went and I wrote a book about football managers from in Ireland became a republic in 1953, right up to 2010. And I got picked up by merciless press, which was a traditional old school publishing house in Ireland and very rare for a non sport journalist to get picked up by them. But what I had what I had done actually was I peeled away the layers of the Irish football ecosystem boy. And interviewing everybody from managers, their wives, family, players, all the way down to create a disk, you know, in hindsight, probably poorly written book for to meet was this magical book. And I gave the money to the kidney association of Ireland, which was to honor my my father in my way. And what was happening around that time was Facebook was coming up Twitter was coming up as it was then and what I realized was when you know, writing a book is hard selling a book is probably harder. So I went and studied communications I went and studied digital marketing and I took an internship to learn all about digital marketing I I decided to quit the job. And in the middle of a recession with a young baby. And I can tell you I was a popular home doing that. So, but but you kind of have to have a bit of a bit of belief in yourself and I knew everything would be kind of alright. And yeah, it's kind of led on this just just probably crazy 14 year journey, but those early decisions. It's interesting that you said you knew everything would be alright and so many entrepreneurs just have that hardwired belief that they are going to be fine that their idea is brilliant that they're going to be alright that their decisions are sound. And it frequently they are that that that's part of what makes them tick, but how often has that instinct is obviously led you to be very right in this instance. But would you ever challenge anybody to challenge that instinct when they're when they're running a business in sport because sports such a funny old sector. You can lead you a straight I mean I've I've backed the wrong hunch before now. How do you how do you shift when to back it when not to back it's. Yeah, look, I mean, you don't know what good is until you've experienced bad. You don't know what a high is until you see the low. So like I have sat in the back yard and what my my family's been out of the house and gone, how am I going to pay everybody this month. How am I going to pay my mortgage, you know, I have I have seen, you know, you know, an empty bank accounts, you know, and I say empty with lots of reds and negatives in there. So, you know, the journey is it's it's it's not easy, you know, and I think, you know, any founder, you know, you have to have belief in yourself. If you're going to go on a journey and I think that's inherent and that's that's the 1% of everything just like you're 1% the Premier League player you back yourself you believe yourself. That doesn't mean a Premier League player doesn't have a bad game. That doesn't mean a Premier League player doesn't have a controversial part of his life. But when you look back and reflect on that whole career, you know, it works out okay. So I think that's that's the mindset you kind of have to have and I think you have to you have to kind of know in your in your kind of hearts of hearts that this is for you. And when you first took that step into sports tech, what what financially was your situation? What did you put in place to give yourself the best chance? Were you emptying your your own personal savings? Where did the other money that you had come from and and how precarious a position was it at the very start. Yeah, I mean like look back back in 2012 when I left, you know, you were on a salary just just under a hundred thousands euros and that my first year on my own, I think I took home 17,000. And you know, you have you have savings, you know, we were fortunate in that regard, you know, we had and you know, we had, you know, not that you want to rely on too much, but we've good family behind us, you know, that that that were, you know, willing to support the journey because they knew how passionate I was about it. You know, that my my father was was an entrepreneur, you know, my mother always supported him. So I think she probably saw me as an extension of that really, you know, so yeah, you're, you're constantly running on fumes when you're getting up and started. And you know, it's great to say that you know, I made 10 million, but I had one million starting entrepreneurs don't have that luxury, you know, you're out there, you'll have something in the bank account that's close to 20 25 to 50, maybe a hundred thousand, that's your, that's your life savings and you're going to going rights, I trust myself to rather than put this on a horse, I'm putting it on myself, I am the jockey. That's really interesting that you chose that route and and particularly given your background in fun manager, you must have had a very sophisticated understanding of the different ways you could set up and finance the business in the first instance. And I speak to a lot of entrepreneurs who say, all right, I've got capital or yeah, I'm bootstrapping, but it's a view to my first round is going to be in certain figure, 500,000, whatever it is. What made you think right, I'm going to self because I'm seeing you self funded for the first year or two, what made you decide right, I'm going to make the self funded or bootstrap, I'll fund it. As opposed to saying right, I'll try and get other, I'll try to build this on other people's money in the first instance, how did you come to that decision. Yeah, I think you have to, you know, if you're going to be a founder, you know, you have to, you kind of have to walk, walk the walk, talk the talk. You have to, I mean, there's no magic wand where you meet an investor and they go, right? Yeah, you fantastic, love your idea. Yeah, I liked the fact you came from, you know, a world of finance. Yeah, here you go. That doesn't happen. Or if it does, it's very limited. I think you have to, you have to be able to tell the story of, of, and look, everything, everything, whether it's an investor chat, whether it's a branch, whether it's a sports, IP write order, everything's all about storytelling and the story and the personality of it. So I think you have to, you have to kind of be able to tell a story of, well, yeah, I was in finance. That was comfortable. I took myself out of that comfortable situation. And this is what I've done. And I remember like, when I kind of got out and kind of was first deciding my journey, actually, I went from every football club in the UK. So from A to W, I went from Arsenal to walking, you know, I had no ask. I wanted to understand what they were doing. I looked at what was growing in the States at the time, did my research. So you see the lights up at the time it was daily fantasy sports. And my brother and I was a developer. We built out a concept for what was a, excuse me, a fantasy five game, a daily, fantasy game. And, and on my own, I went and got a gambling license, you know, in the UK. And like, I realized I can fill out forms very well. And but like, I didn't really have a clue, you know, of what I was doing. You know, I was kind of going right. There's an opportunity here. These guys might come to the UK at some point, you know, turned out they did, you know, they had to knock on the door. But it's funny. I don't think having the background in, in fun management and finance actually helped me other than giving me a work ethic and structure around it. So I didn't certainly know that I need numbers or looking at numbers, you know, as before I came on to this podcast, I was sitting down with her account and going to numbers. And I was actually taking them with me. I've always forgotten what numbers are. So maybe, yeah. Yeah. Um, Trevor, you mentioned a moment ago that you've had moments where you've been in the garden with your head in your hands thinking, how on earth am I going to pay everybody? How am I going to pay my mortgage? I'm really interested in, in how you got to moments like that. So you start out, you have a concept that you believe in, you believe in yourself. What is the first moment, the first real big significant thing where you think, oh dear, I think financially isn't perhaps working as I thought it might. Yeah. The minute you bring in other people into an entity, you know, employees, you know, like when you're, when you're, when you're going on a journey, like, you know, your partner boys into what that journey is, you know, so they get it. They know that it's going to be hard. But when you bring in other people, you know, suddenly their mortgages, their family become an extension of your worries because, you know, you don't want to let anybody ever be in a situation where they're struggling, you know, are there? And, you know, you, you do your best. You do your best with the information you have at all times to make sure that that doesn't happen, you know, but the worry changes when it goes beyond your own circle. You know, that's, that's very true. And in that, I mean, I don't know an entrepreneur who hasn't had that experience. But in that, that development, what did you do to change it and was there anything that you could have done not to arrive in that position in the first place? That's something I think about a lot, but I think you have to, everything, everything is part of of a journey. I don't think you, I would change any of it. I mean, hindsight, hindsight is a wonderful thing, a wonderful, wonderful thing. But every decision has been made with the best information that has been available at that time. And I can't change those decisions. And I don't necessarily know if I want to because, you know, it's like when you, if you ever watched any movies, you know, and they talk about the scars that they carry and I'm thinking of movies like Leetlwepp and, you know, Mel Gibson, he's got the scene re-showing on these scars and that. And I think these decisions are your scars, but they're also reminders, you know, and when you get to that same situation in the future, you're empowered by what you did in that, in that previous decision. So I don't think we need to be looking back and go, I would have done that differently. And that's, that's so interesting. And the point that you make about being in partnership, you've obviously got a brilliant partnership, you're building something really strong. But choosing partners, you, we'll see partnership, partnership set up in business and you think, oh, I didn't see that one necessarily being the natural, two natural bedfellows. What advice would you give to listeners about when to go into partnership, when to fly to loan and what makes a partnership? Particularly of equals work because how do you make the buck stop with someone? And if you've got 50, 50 say, you can meet, you can reach a stalemate. What have you learnt in your, through your business practices that could help other people navigate those? Because that can be, those can be such choppy waters. Yeah. And I think the, there's a couple of things actually when you break that down. I think when you work, when you work alongside somebody at that, at that level, it's, it's, it's almost like a marriage, you know, you have to trust the person. You know, you have to be able to row with them, put that route to bed and get up in the morning and go again. You have to be able to have honest chats. What I would say to anybody actually that if they're going working with somebody is, do psychometric tests on each other. You know, my seven chin eight have done psychometric tests on each other to understand how we work together or ways of working together. And what's important and values that we both, you know, understand and like my seven chin eight would have always said that we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're actually, yin and yin. We're very similar. We're both very competitive, but we both have found a way to complement each other. You know, and I look back at maybe, you know, other co-founders that would have had who are incredible people. And you know, it would have been great to understand ways of working, you know, true psychometric testing. I also think you spend time together face to face to have a dinner, you know, but also have important meetings with whiteboards and kind of make sure that that everything is aligned. And you know what? Like, you probably wouldn't like me saying this, but like which, which native and like, it felt like a courtship, you know, because it's about seven months to decide, yeah, let's go into business together. And you know, I don't think I could actually, I don't think I know I wouldn't have been able to do this with anybody else. So I think, you know, if you're going to go into into business, it has to be the, the right person. And I think to, to the point you made about staying on your own, if you want scale and you want investment, you need to be at least a two person startup team. And again, I know we're seeing a lot of, of AI startups moving very quickly. I think that's just more of a formal piece, rather than a, than anything concrete, you know, in that bubble at the moment. But, you know, if you're taking seriously and looking for investment, you need to be a minimum of two person founding team. Hmm. That's interesting. I'm interested in, you've spoken a lot about the business side of it. I want to, if I may dig into the products a little bit more, when you have something that you think, yeah, this is going to work. This is going to be something that industry will notice, will recognize the value of, will be keen on. And have you encountered any obstacles between firstly developing products and the length of time that can take and the financial challenges you have to navigate until you've got a product ready to go? And then secondly, when you then take it to industry and try and sell it, you know, the difficulties there and that can be, oh, you know, I slightly misjudged where the industry was or it could be industry was in exactly the place. I thought it was, but for some reason, and I still don't know why people didn't buy it as I thought they would. Yeah, it's a good question. I think there's two parts to it. So I think in the first part, looking anecdotically, a couple of years ago, I was involved in an adventure with Dr. Jag Basra. Fantastic. You know, worked on the UEFA training courses and, you know, was working with a lot of open coming football coaches and football managers on psychometric testing, actually, and more kind of your big five tests. I'm a seven Jag, you know, came across each other. We were put in touch and You know, we thought this could be something that could really work in the scouting world And when you look at how how players are scouted and this exists right now is you know You'll have a network of scouts. They'll go to games and you know, they will make notes about a player You know, and they will write up a report and they'll email that reported and then when it gets to the next stage is they'll go talk to the coach and we've permissioned them to talk to the players Parents and then they'll talk to the player and based on that they'll make a decision. Yeah, this is a go-y-work word-signing and we looked at that and we was there Well, what if you could put a bit of science around this and there was a company in the US called AIQ the athletic intelligence codenance and fantastic Scott That that was the founder of it and they were doing the psychometric tests on and they had this bank of information around NFL players and they they kind of had worked out a benchmark that if it and athlete fell within this benchmark He will have this this type of career So we felt we wanted to do something that but we wanted to build it in to the scouting process So you know, you would have a and that platform that would you know, take away the paper and you would have a Psychometric report that with the player's parents permission would be done by him And we went to market and we chatted and the feedback was yeah, this is great This is definitely something we'd use but that was from executives in clubs and Then when we we built the product we had a partner that helped us build on it and we got it into nine clubs Everything from crawly towel and up to you know, we had Rangers Barley, you know, we clubs like this and they were using it and What we found that was the executive teams absolutely wanted it because they saw the value of data They saw the value of testing players and understanding it and but we didn't talk to the right people because when we got talking to scouts Scouts were they you know, they have a structure that there was full-time scouts within the thing and then they had you know A sub network of scouts that were you know pen and paper merchants that were at games and A lot of times, you know, these could be older guys. They'd certainly weren't tech savvy, you know at the best of times They had a Nokia 62 10 phone in their pockets and we were expecting these guys to you know to be able to download an iPhone app and go through it and You know, it was the biggest learning and I remember when we got into one particular club and you know We talked we were there. Yeah, you know, this is what we're in we're in, you know, this is you know This is premier league championship clubs. This is gonna happen now, you know and they had talked about if this works They did they did they'd introduce us to other clubs and you know and and when we when we got in they had this young Innovative scout actually which fed down from the executive team and We started and within three weeks where we were getting great feedback, you know under product and tweaking it and work using those learnings from the pilot and then he decided he was leaving and he was replaced by You know a veteran scout we called it and and overnight that the pilot was was pulled and You know You kind of you know you you've to pick yourself up from that and And I suppose we've kind of say it earlier on I said would you do it to differently? And I just kind of said you have to do the journey you do but I think in that instance It's probably one where You we probably should have focused more on on the on the end user rather than the executive team and what they wanted To that end, I'm coming into the sport sector You obviously knew it very well and the fact that you've written about it and you've had different entrepreneurial experiences within it It's always amazing to people coming in that sector complexity and also You know the sector can be pretty siloed in that it's amazing how Often people you would expect to be speaking to each other Frankly, don't What are the particular nuances of sport that have really struck you as Rather than just being a fan being a business person within that environment Yeah You look at it from a fan and you kind of think yeah, I want to work on this. This is super. This is amazing and It's almost you know it's sports as a person. You don't meet your hero You know because when you look at a football club with football obviously be the biggest sport Sport is just so focused on operational performance You know everything is about the players and the players come first And I think you know if you're building something in a fan engagement perspective You know we just take that silo for a second a lot of times the clubs just don't have the budget That makes it hard to go into a club and kind of go right We have an amazing piece of technology here and the club immediately goes well We left it to give you a platform to use your technology You know so speaking with clubs can be very hard I think for a founder and I think it can be very eye-opening When they go to speak to them to kind of go actually our focus here is on signing these players and paying their wages If it's okay I just wanted to go back to the moment you said that you had that product You maybe should have focused a bit more on the end user But you thought you were going to get people biting on it. It didn't end up working out When the investment didn't come in or rather when the buyers didn't come through the door I'm just interested in the effect that had on you the business Maybe anyone else who was working for you financially what were the consequences of that not working out Ultimately that that that business didn't succeed you know I'm sure you know jag would have tested this as well, but like it's It's We were close to significant investment, you know based on those toilets, you know the and the you know the two biggest ones We're kind of falling true We weren't getting the kind of the the user traction that we needed and I think you know Ultimately, you know, it's yeah that business failed, you know and and we had to kind of toss yourself up We'd been accepted into an accelerator, you know program, you know, which had gotten funding We go yeah, we could we probably just have to to There's a phrase you kind of have is failed fast, you know, and we use it a lot in what we do right now and I think You know, that was one of the instances where we kind of took a step back and said look we're putting a lot of effort in here and We've got this run like the industry is not ready executives are but the industry is not and You know, let's let's just make the decision to to to to to fold this, you know and and that's you know You know sometimes you can be You can be you know And certainly a lot of founders could be accused of dragging something out and failing to to maybe put the sword in but I actually think that You know jagga jagga myself in that instance, you know, we're pretty rootless and what needed to be done and you know As hard as it was and like I cut up a jagged recently and she actually the learnings she took from that business like she She just hasn't had an exit of her own so Again, you know, it's the it's the building of the character. It was the right thing to do with the information at that time as hard as that was but like Alex like I just what I want to make one point and I think it's a point for everybody there There would be times in in somebody's life where they don't know if they will be able to pay or do bills or do anything For a hard working person with the right attitude There is always work Alex. There is always work if you have the right attitude and and you know If you don't let your ego get in the way You'll election be alright. You'll be alright. Yeah, it's It will be tough, but you'd be alright So it's a draft when you heard that situation where you had the business You call time on it How did you dust yourself off Resenter and start again. Did your confidence take a break? Or did you think no? I'm the right person that just wasn't the right initiative Yeah, so Look I'll share something I've kind of never never shared really before but like and I think we're all a bit newer diverse I'm a bit newer diverse I'm actually very hard on myself on a daily basis, you know and you know I'm always questioning myself and I've always You know going oh why did you do that or what did you do in those situations? So It's natural, you know to then with something bad like that happens to kind of go, you know And be extra tough on yourself and probably I'm doing that level of toughness on myself at this service, you know Partners and family will probably say God. He's he he can be I can be quite challenging and quite tense. And I know that. But I guess for me, you know, on top of that, I do a lot of personal work, you know, life coaches, I do a lot of work with business coaches. You know, I would urge anybody that's going to be a founder, and particularly if they've won that with an exit coming up, that's not that I do, but go to counseling, go to a psychologist, you know, and you know, prepare yourself because what like, you know, if you get through a situation where a business fails, okay, that's like the equivalent of a marriage failing or the loss of a child, not in, and I don't want to play down, sorry, what a marriage failing or loss of a child is, but it is a sense of grief, you know, and you have to have the skills to to manage that. And I think likewise, if you're about to sell a business, people probably don't realize that, you know, selling a business, it's actually letting go of something you've built from scratch. So you have to be mentally have the tools available to be able to deal with that. And I think, you know, I probably relays that more so over time, I do a lot of bread work, I do a lot of I do a lot of work on myself. Excuse me. What I did back then was ran. I turned, I turned into a mini forest gump or a larger forest gump. I'm sure Tom Hanks is probably slimmer than me, but I used that, I used to go for running every day, every day. And I'd run until my brain fell tired. And that's then when my brain fell tired, I knew that, you know, I can take a mini break here now. Interesting. Yeah. And I'm really fascinated on a couple of occasions, you've talked about the sort of, the psychological element of running a business and handling the finances of it earlier. You said that you did psychometric tests, you and your business partner. And just now you said, you know, I'd recommend doing tests and getting counseling and maybe doing psychological tests on yourself, maybe at the outset of a business so that, you know, your psychologically prepared, do you think that element of it, the mind side of financially running a business and being prepared to do what needs to be done or handling things that come at you from from left field, that that side of it is underappreciated by people who are getting into startups and they're just focusing on the product or something else. And actually, they could be focusing on their own minds more. 100% 100% I think, yeah, I imagine you'll get somebody listening to this that, you know, that is in an office and they're probably thinking about going into that. And like, even in your own, we've all worked in different environments, you know, defeating when you get when a boss says to you, can you commit to my office for a minute? Okay. And you don't know what that conversation is about in your head spirals. Am I getting sacked? Am I done something wrong? You know, well, that's every day in an entrepreneur life, you know, because you're going to get an email going, you know, at no, we don't want to work at you, no, the time that right now, no, we don't have a budget. You know, like it's, you're getting a lot of nose. So you have to be able to deal, you know, with that. And like, you know, I think over time, you know, time is a great friend, but, you know, you kind of learned to go, okay, well, you know, nose are okay, you know, but when you're starting out, and particularly, you know, if you're a bit younger, maybe or not, not that that always means the case either, but, you know, and no, could be a devastating thing because you built this, you built this product, you had this baby, you want the world to use it, you know, and somebody's just said, actually, no, we don't need it, or we can't afford it, or it's not for us. And that's a hard take, you know, that's, you know, just like nobody wants to go off to a prime and wrote it back and say, oh my god, that's an ugly baby. You know, you know, everybody wants to think that their child is perfect. And business is no difference. Yeah. And to that point, when you kind of go through the development of the business and the expansion, you've said about how important a partner is, but we've talked about the importance of people around you, the complexity of the sports sector, when you expand, not so much with the recruitment, but when you start to develop a board or a, or a series of advisors, how do you recommend other entrepreneurs go about getting the right people about them to, because that shift from start up to stay up to scale up, the business changes exponentially at each stage. How do you recruit at the top level to support you as the founder? And almost at what point do you realize my work here is done? It's time to leave it to others. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I haven't got to the point yet where I've had to make decision of my work here is done. So I would be very interested when that comes my way, actually, how that manifests out. But to the first point, like, for the most part, you know, entrepreneurs, they have very much their curious, they have a group mindset and they're driven. So when you're looking for, you know, a board or a advisory board, you're looking for somebody that you can learn from somebody that that will, you know, elevate you your knowledge and your status potentially in network, you know, but certainly your knowledge because you want to have, you want to be able to grow and learn from them. And I think these guys have, I've got to the very top of their business. They push themselves, you know, they're amazing people, you know, that, that, and if you're willing to listen, they will give you some amazing insights. Do you know what? That feels like as good a place as any to land. So, Drev, thank you so much for speaking to us. It's been fascinating to get your insight and your advice. I'm sure people listening to this will have memories flooding back based on what you said or, or maybe have a clearer vision for the future of their startup. So, so thank you very much. Ah, that's great. Thank you Alex. Yeah, thanks Rebecca as well. I hope that was okay for you guys. So, thank you. We hope you enjoyed that conversation with Drev and that it's given you some food for thought. The SDA group exists to be the link between suits, track suits, lab coats and wallets. Thank you again to our sponsor, SportsTech HQ, and thank you for listening. Goodbye. Goodbye.