The Exit Edit: Money Marketing, AI, consolidation & work-life balance

Hello, and welcome back to the exit exit, nope, the exit exit. Oh no, we've got two people, two or three of us are suffering with some kind of laggy we have contracted on our travels last week, so we're suffering, so please bear with us. I'm Gaina, and joining me today are Ben and Vicki. Each episode we get together to talk about what's happening across the financial planning profession, from exits and acquisitions to the news, trends. These trends and contractions are not our attention. It's real, this is all guys. I'm the not ill one. We're going to get through. It's going to be okay. We'll share what we're seeing. What we're hearing and are taking on what it could mean for firms, owners and the wider profession. Today we've got some conversations around AI, advisors, satisfaction in the hours that they're working, and maybe a little bit about minority-staking, Amber Rivers. So shall we get to it? He wants to go first. Over to Ben. Ben. Pick me. Pick me. Well, after, I don't know about you guys, but every time I go to a presentation somewhere at the moment, AI is in the title or discussed in the thing, and the overriding message from everybody, especially the AI providers, those don't worry, AI won't take your job, it will make you more effective. Well, headlines today, for HSBC, they have announced they're going to cut 70% of their UK advisor roles in a move to AI. So for the first time, AI is indeed taking advisor jobs. Really interesting this, because I came through HSBC, that's how I started my advice career, and loads of people used to come up with the banks. You got a train in a bank, and then you disappear off into an IFA firm. It was a great kind of nursery almost for new people into their profession, and then they really cut all of their sales forces, and then a couple of years ago, they announced they were going to get back in heavy. They were going to go in, they were going to quadruple your assets and the management were in a massive hiring spree, so they've now got 420 advisors across the country, and they're going to get rid of 70% of them to replace them with an AI solution. So yeah, AI may actually take advisor jobs. I just want to pick up on what you were saying there about like the training ground being the banks back in the day, because you're a similar age to me, aren't Ben and were the wrong side of 40 now, so we learned our trade in that way, and I think we're really seeing the impact of that now on leadership, because I spend so much time in the succession and the exit space. This desire that firms have to want to pass the business on internally, actually the finding there's a bit of a leadership drought, because 2010, 2011 when I was on the horizon, that when the bank started to pull back and not bring through that new blood that the profession needs and fast forward now were 15 years on, they'd have been the leaders, right? And actually, whenever you hear stories like this, it's like, yes, we're progressing, we're moving forward, we're using the technology to be able to service more people and create leaner businesses, but there's always easel and intended consequences, isn't there, because the reality is we still need these advisors. But actually, could this be a thing where all of a sudden there's a load of advisors that come into the independent space, you know, I assume they're going to be looking for jobs, right? And it's now for the independent space, hopefully to pick them up and yeah, keep them in. I was thinking it might start to impact some of the wage stuff, because the wages for employed advisors are kind of off the chart right now, you know, salaries plus bonuses are absolutely crazy, and you know, if suddenly 400 advisors drop into the marketplace, that might start to make it a bit more competitive for advice roles, although there are so many people looking for employed advisors, maybe they'll just get snapped up and it is what it is. Interesting. Just a bit of a segue, I was at the Oh and James event last week and we were talking about growth and it was one of the things that came up about that whole, like, people being advisors, but actually not knowing how to sell now, I know there's that whole thing around like sales and is it a bad word or is it a good word? But the skills that people learn to, you know, reading body language, how to close all of that and that there is a generation of advisors that are very good like farmers in a great at servicing, but don't know how to win new business. Well, did you say Ben, you got hundreds of thousands of like a lot of money in training that you went that you went through, where it just be see and I know that you still use it to this day. So we're not in other firms. Well, I kind of came through into it just to be say I was a trainee. So training for an advisor was what they took me on. And in the first year, I reckon I must have had, I don't know, like actual offsite full on training days, maybe 30, 40 days and then, you know, going forwards, there was probably at least, I don't know, four or five courses a year that you went on to kind of improve your skills and people don't believe me now when I tell them, but when I was kind of coming through on that training stuff, probably 70 to 80% of that was sales skills, 20% was compliance. Yeah. You look at the new guys coming through now and their training is 95% compliance and how to research funds and how to disclose properly and there's just no training, which is why I created all the sales training stuff that we now kind of do with firms and push out there. It's just trying to give them some of that old school how to actually have a conversation and the challenge for me is that financial services, you need to have sales because some products are not self-select, people don't self-select protection, protection is sold not bought. Yeah. And you have to convince somebody and get them in the right mindset to be like, you do realise that if you don't do this, you're going to bugger up your future and without having the skills to do that, people just won't protect themselves, bad outcomes down the line. You know, there is a real value there and it's going to be interesting to see what happens and whether some of the other banks will follow suit now and close down some of their sales arms. I thought they were going to go more towards simplified, but they just constrict AI and cut out the whole human completely out of the equation. Very interesting. It was also going to say on that was, sorry, I was also going to say on that was, I've had a number of conversations with firms recently who are looking to grow without hiring. So, they're looking to expand the number of clients they service, expand their AUA, but they're not looking for any new staff members because they're going to be using technology to assist. So I do wonder whether this might be the first time for a while that the kind of paradigm shifts and there are, in fact, enough advisors, rather than the petrol problem of not having enough advisors. Yeah, yeah. Well, there was another article this week that was that money box. So we don't, I haven't really heard of money box. Maybe that's just me, but money box, big, big firm out there are going to be launching an AI led advice service. So again, back in the, you know, it looked like we had like the Robo advice bit and people tried it and it didn't really work and it kind of went away and people retreated, but there seems to have been quite a few instances now of like AI advice, guidance, is this going to be the era where technologies in such a place where they, we actually, you know, nail this and people that percentage of people beyond the 9% that get advice are actually there are going to be able to access additional support, advice, whatever we want to call it because the technology supports it. So, and now you've, so Vicky, you know a little bit more about money box, money box, yes, money box. Yeah, they're a direct consumer mainly, so they've got loads and loads of clients, really great marketing comes across as a lovely culture and it's given that first kind of stepping stone into, you know, saving and investing to a lot of people, right? And so they've now got a huge database and it absolutely to me makes sense and I'm not surprised that we're seeing the article coming out saying that they now want to start to move more into financial planning and, you know, when you're a very tech focused firm like, like they are, you know, they've, they've got the skills to be able to do that. And yeah, I think with crypto advice, you still sort of sometimes hear advises saying that they'll go, well, crypto advice never worked or the all reference that company is it nugget? What's it called? No, it's not called that. It was called nugget. Yeah, that's not quite sitting. That don't feel quite right. But anyway, they were a company. You'll find it. I was talking and I don't think it's ever made any money, you know, I think it's still losing money. It's being acquired now. But my view is sometimes you can have a really good business idea. It's just not the right time for that business idea because you've got to have an idea at the same time as you've got to have the people that want that solution. Well, that's actually paved the way. Yeah, to go at a speed, because I think people have tried this in the past, but I think to even just, you know, write the program and build the solution was so time-consuming and expensive it became prohibitive and a bit clunky but we're going at such a speed right now with AI and you know what it can do and how you can train it that you know is this are we at that critical point where the technology and then people's receptivity to it because everybody uses chat GBT or Claude or whatever like where everybody's using that now so that's not a foreign premise or a hurdle that you have to get over feeling weird that you're taking advice from something is not real because we all do we've all asked chat for advice on something real but especially if you have teenage children yeah so that's kind of not a weird thing anymore um yeah I think you've hit an nail in the head there Jay I mean when when real-world advice kicked off before the cost of acquisition for clients was just astronomical which is why it all tanked um and interestingly it wasn't the attracting clients in to into the environment wasn't the challenge where people fell out was when they pressed proceed so they got all the way through the entire journey and it was like do you want to go ahead that's where everybody dropped because they wanted to look in looking the whites of somebody's eyes and get them to say yeah it's okay to gonna go on and continue with this journey and we've not really had that since and um I was talking about this the day with somebody but I think we're now at the stage where um where AI is kind of passing the touring test to a point where we don't even know whether we're talking to it or not so you know the touring test is you know if AI can do certain things then it kind of it it passes the test and it's assumed to be human and you know we've now got AI stuff which you can have a bot which will phone a call center and chase your L.O.A. for you and the person in the call center has got no idea they're talking to AI they think they're talking to a person so you know if you even look at the kind of the younger people from today there's an AI girlfriend is there I think so you know you're supposed to be like you date in a chat GPT or whatever but kids are starting to kind of get into this stuff it's we're getting to the place now where you stop thinking it's a robot and start just believing it's a person I think that's the tipping point yeah so when you get to the point and you're like is this okay should I go ahead and the AI comes back to you and says yeah don't worry about it I understand you concerns but loads of people know this before your AI does a wonderful close they're going to press yes aren't we so I do think we're now at a point where we're going to see more of that watch this space watch this space yeah and I think you know whilst we're talking about is this the solution that we can now start to service more of the adult population and you know that 91% that aren't receiving anything is tragic and that needs to be sorted out it I think these solutions will start to serve those but then they'll start to nip at the heels of what's going on in the planning space because I think we've covered this in previous podcasts but you know these businesses you take somebody like a money box right you know millions of consumers millions of clients big marketing budget right so all of a sudden naturally consumers are going to start to have that basis for comparison they're going to start to hear more about AI led services about the costs because these firms that are leading with AI are also going to be quite proud of where they're pricing their proposition to attract the mass market and that's what we've got to be careful of as advisors we can't rest on our laurels and go right we'll bear over here doing that and we're over here doing this we've got to go wherever here doing this but what else can we do how else can we improve how else can we you know do more with these families so that our businesses aren't at risk from the developments in AI because it's not all of a sudden going to stop it's not just going to get to this point and go right that's it it's going to keep going and go in and go in and you've just got a big go in in your head if I'm building a business for five years time what might it look like and that can be terrifying but the firms that are going to be the best prepared are the ones that are happy to sort of you know go in suit with the rise wide open and scenario plan like you do for your clients I think it's it's almost going to be I I do wonder I'd be interested to get both your texts on this how are we going to start finally seeing fee compression on advice fees because we haven't so far everything else in the in the stack has gone down platform fees fund fees it's all compressed advice fees have gone up to fill the gap that's that the compressions had from the side of things are we going to start seeing pressure on that I think I think it'll depend on where you you sit I think obviously if you're just you know if you're meeting with your advisor once a year and they're just telling you to put some money in your pen I mean you know me yeah yeah yeah okay is that worth whatever assets you've got invested percentage did it out probably not if you are a complex family with money and you've got intergenerational and you've got education and maybe you feel anthropic and did it out well you would just assume that that definitely is value for money with all that you can be you know the the advisors bring into it well then that leads into the skills of the advisors that are functioning at that end we're you know you're back to is like you know you want qualifications in coaching and all of those skills not like did you pass an exam where you can regurgitate back some rules like that's not going to be the qualification that you want from the person yeah yeah yeah yeah experience I think it's the experience of taking advice is going to become more important going forward in each to feel like an experience yeah you need to feel like the person that you dealing with is kind of a trusted friend and mentor and almost like a psychologist and yeah it's that kind of style of relationship and well I suppose it comes back to what we said before about stuff if if you're if you're in an advice firm right now and you're like no I don't want to do that not necessarily I don't want to do more psychos stuff just want to kind of do what I'm doing now maybe it's a good time to think about getting a valuation yeah and that's not scare people but it is generally it is moving that pace and I think that you've got a responsibility to your clients to you know kind of move with that as well and I think if you if you what you're doing is if all you're doing is what tech can do then you know you've you've potentially got an issue and certainly around the cash flow modeling and what pots should money go into and how is it taxed and stuff like that you know that the technology can do that with the right prompts and the right technical knowledge going into it then you know the technology can can run that output but this is where we've just got yeah go deeper with families and and go beyond their investments as well right you know I think it is financial planners it's going to become more and where you're going to earn your value is by going actually we're here to support you as a family oh so you've got those business assets there and you've got that property portfolio there and those trusts there and you know like mini like a family FD almost right and and that sort of service only used to be available to the really wealthy but actually now it almost feels like that service can become more you know available to people who maybe don't have that level of wealth because now tech can deal with people who are more in the mass affluent space so we've just got to adapt haven't we we've got to adapt to changes and adapt to conceive needs and just never stay still in business it's like trying to sit on a bike that's not moving I know we've been talking about this for ages but my last my last kind of thread in it if you're not doing it already as an advisor spend time working out what your clients actual goals are and then what's the emotional driver behind the goal so what are they what are they trying to work towards trying which even why is that important to them as an individual person you know if you look back at your clients you're like their goal was tax relief you've not got them you you've not you've not got to the point where you've actually under covered the important stuff behind it oh you know I still see now what I want an access to a greater range of funds said nobody said nobody ever other than if someone trying to get a report pass complaint it's time working out what is it they're trying to get there and what and that's the important bit is why is it important to them if you can get it out of that if you can get that to that level of detail with them it creates a whole new level of relationship where you can help them work towards achieving the things that matter to them rather than just a product or service which is a better tax position than what they're in there yeah so yeah a bit sideways with the next article then that you found because we've been talking about AI just here about you know it can do all this other stuff and you know what is left in the advice process for actual human interaction but the article was some stats from a survey that AI who did AI in teleflow sorry which one tell us what they've said actually um so in teleflow ran a survey um across their quite large membership obviously they support around what 60% probably of all advice businesses in the UK so they got quite a good a good data set to work from and people who took part in the survey were asked to score their work-life balance between one and five so one being terrible five being amazing and the key finding was that as people work more hours they feel worse about their work-life balance on an almost direct kind of linear trajectory so the stats in the article said that for people who worked [BLANK_AUDIO] 35 to 40 hours a week. They were 3.61 out of five. When that went into 41 to 48 hours, it dropped to 3.2. And for those working 49 hours or more, it went down to 2.9. So generally speaking, the more time off you've got, the more happy you are as an individual. Shock horror. We've definitely a different culture now, isn't it, so when we started at work, when I started off as a trainee, I was working 60, 70 hours a week, every every week, guaranteed. And it was very much, if you left the office at five, people were like, what's wrong with them? What's wrong with that person? Why they gone? It was almost like a bravado in staying late and stuff. And I don't see that anymore at all, to the point where, I mean, so I obviously used to work a tenant group. We introduced a couple of bits of tech, which was quite time-saving or process change, which was quite time-saving for the advisors, so we were trying to increase their productivity. And what we found was, every time we introduced a time-saving, they played more golf. Nobody ever took on more clients. And I do wonder, with all the kind of stuff in technology going forwards now, are we going to see more clients? Are we going to see lower-handy caps on the golf course? Who knows? Well, how people are compensated? Again, on Jameson, we had a conversation around this whole percentage of assets, is like, if you could take on more clients, but you were making this money because you've got a percentage, you're like, what's the motivation to do that? Because it's fun, it's like, in a choir world, and I get it, right? The oldies are often the goodies, right? So you pay a third to, so in terms of turnover coming in, you pay a third to the people that are generating the revenue. You pay a third, hopefully, in all of your other costs, so your office, your licenses, your support staff, yada, yada, yada, yada. And then you kick off a third in terms of profitability. And so when you've got all these acquisitions happening, essentially, these consolidators, they've got client banks, right? They've got, you know, John Sally, whoever is selling, they want to exit. They're bringing in new advisors and going, right, you're going to take over, you know, John or Sally's client bank. John or Sally might have spent the last 25 years building their business, and they've got that business to a point of generating, you know, 400,000 recurring income, let's say, over 100 clients. And then advisors are walking into these firms and they're being offered 20, 25% of that recurring income as a basic wage, you know, bonuses on, on top of that. And it's no wonder then that the smaller firms that want to hire people, they can't compete because they're going, well, we don't have a client bank to give, you know, and it's going to take us two, three, four years to make a profit on that advisor and where comfortable to commit that time. But actually, that advisor's just been offered a job by that consolidator, who's going to give them a six figure salary, and all they've got to do is look after, after a client bank, right? And that's, that's really tricky. And one of the reasons, I think, why the smaller firms find it's so hard to recruit and why they've got to start to become more creative around how they attract in in good talent, you know, through, I don't know whether it's potential for future ownership or through some form of options and stuff like that. But yeah, to compete with the consolidators when they've got the profit, you know, in these client banks that they've acquired is super hard. I'm seeing more, more success in the kind of training advisor roles recruiting in. Not necessarily, you've been a power plant for 10 years and now we'll move you into an advisor role. But people who have shown some aptitude, they've either paid for their exams themselves, maybe they've gone through a training academy, through like Quilt to SJP, someone like that, but then they don't want to stay in that particular environment. That's where I'm seeing more success for smaller businesses is bring them in a bit green and then teaching them your way of doing business rather than trying to find a super experienced person and having to try and pony up however much for a salary and finding a client bank to walk into to try and compete with the consolidators as you said, Vic. What's interesting though about that work life balance thing is I wonder maybe I've got some information that sits behind this. Who is it that they surveyed? Because actually there's a real risk that those advisors that sit in the group where they're doing more hours and their satisfaction is lower. If they're employees in businesses then there's a real risk to his business owners that those employees are going to go and look for another job, they're going to find something where they do have a better work life balance. Probably a week doesn't go by that a regulated advisor on LinkedIn doesn't have a recruiter in their inbox going, "Hey, I've got this opportunity." If I was a business owner I would be looking at those stats, I would be thinking about then the workload of my advisors and trying to just make sure that we're doing something about that because nobody can sit at a motivation score sub three when there's so many more opportunities out there. They will have their heads turned at some point and that's the worst thing for a small business is to spend years investing into somebody handing over clients just for them ultimately to leave. I think the culture shifted a bit though now because it's almost like the culture is not working over. I know a few firms that we've engaged with and one in particular, brilliant firm and then the MD of that's like, "I don't want my staff to work any overtime ever." Family is important so if people haven't started working overtime we're staffing up. That's why the culture they're trying to ensue and I've seen a similar type of message in other businesses. It's like, don't work yourself to death just do what's expected and then enjoy your rest of your life. There's a balance to that though because you don't want burnt out people who have nothing else going on as a collective but you do want a firm that when in moments of like it's an all hands-on deck everybody gets that it's an all hands-on deck and everybody will stay and do what it takes to get stuff done and then I also think like there's a subsection of that is if you are at the start of your career, your career is about knowledge and experience and the easiest way to fast track that is to put some hours in. Ah, absolutely. At a point in your life when what else are you doing? You don't have children, you're not on pick-up, you're not, you don't mean. So this, well I don't work like extra hours at the point of your career. It's like, okay, that's fine but then you can't complain on the other end that your career is taking a lot longer and you don't know, you don't mean like you've not got the experience and you don't know things. There is a balance there and I'm not saying we go back to a culture where you know, 100 hours a week and all of that stuff and everyone's burnt out and fried and on their last nerve. But equally, if you are ambitious and want to get ahead, there are stripes you have to earn. There is experience that you need to have and the best way to do that is get your hours in. Yeah, be in the office, put your hand up, be seeing. It brings up the debate of work from home or not. Like we have flexible working, of course we do. I'm in an office, G.E.R. over your home, then you're over where you are. I don't think work from home is good for people that are starting in their career. There was nothing like being in the office and just hearing what's going on or just being visible to your managers and in front of them, you know, so that you can expedite that part of your career. So yeah, this whole other debate is that one. Yes, for it. That's for another episode. Okay, so another article that we pulled out this week was about Amber River and Penter Capital maintaining a minority stake when they've resold onto Stone Point, which I thought was uninteresting and maybe Vicki, you know, is that a common thing that happens or will it be more of a common thing that we see going forward with the consolidators and the PE guys and where is the value in this cycle and chain? PE kind of has its limits, which is why firms get to a certain size and they outgrow that PE investor and then they move up to sort of a mid market and then, you know, so ultimately when you're a smaller private equity firm like Penter Capital, you can get to the point where if you've got a big investment, somebody like Amber River, they can become a big waiting in the overall. And of course, you've got shareholders, right? They want them anyhow and they want the liquidity. But at the same time, Penter Capital then has to go and, you know, find new investments. See what else is going on? Where are they going to make their next return for their shareholders? And I just think it's great that they obviously have so much confidence in the business that they've taken or assisted to sort of take from zero to where they've got it to, that they still want to be part of that next leg of the journey. So absolute shows confidence in the business that they've supported today. It shows confidence in financial planning as a market. to still earn a good return over the next five years as well. So you know good good signs and I'm sure the people at Amber River are delighted as well because it must also demonstrate they had a really good relationship with their investor and that there's a there's a lot of difference out there in terms of what that relationship piece looks like. We see some private equity investors, you never you know you never really get involved with the devolved responsibility you know to the people that are running the firm and everything works really well and it's tickety boo but there are there are firms out there where the people that are leading the business and the people that are investing in it they're not quite getting on they're not quite on the same page as one another and that leads to a real slowdown and real issues in defining culture and working out kind of where you go in right. So you hear a new story like this it's it's really positive they obviously got on well they obviously see lots of opportunity whoa let's go again yeah I think they might have a positive sorry Ben yeah I think that might have a more I mean ultimately like the amount that a private equity firm kind of wants it all comes down to a commercial negotiation right you know so how what percentage do the new buyers that are coming in actually one other people to retain so yeah it still comes down to commercial decision ultimately but yeah I think if people are still interested in financial planning if they are still interested in backing that business then then then they may well are you taking another private equity firm somebody like August capital for example so August capital they backed AAB wealth and then they Goldman Sachs have now come in and and and and create that liquidity and bought our August capital August capital still love the profession still saw a lot of opportunity what they've done is they've gone and backed another business that essentially you know is of that smaller size that they can take on their exciting sort of trajectory that they did that they did with AAB so still it's money that's not staying in the original firm that they were backing but it's still money that's going but we still see opportunity here in financial planning and we enjoyed it the first time you know let's go again so that can only you know signal good thing that's coming from private equity world in terms of their um their interest in us and a nice again little segue as to yesterday you were at a money market event money marketing event money marketing yes that apparently was a feisty debate was that the right word we got a little bit wild yeah it was late in the afternoon as a bunch of panelists we'd all been knocking around together all day as well and we we do get on with one another so you know with it it was fun shall we say to sort of debate what was the topic just so everyone understands what you were actually the topic was is consol it is consolidation reducing consumer choice and you know I think all four of us that were on the panel kind of see things from both sides right so it wasn't a straight up debate in terms of these two are for it and these two are against it because that's just not how it works but I was I was sat on the on the side of you know yes it does reduce consumer choice but I made the point that it's meant to right like consolidation and one of the reasons why private equity was so interested in our space was because they saw all of these disparate businesses doing different things and when well actually if we can bring you know if we can sort of integrate some of these businesses together and start to harmonise you know what's going on then we've got repeatable processes that we can scale so the nature of consolidation of course is about simplifying and reducing choice you just hope that it's not for negative client outcomes but nobody can say that the world of consolidation is not going to reduce down consumer choice because that's what it's trying to do I did see some stats today about the amount of assets held by businesses and the larger businesses are holding more assets than ever so we are starting to see kind of overall assets across the profession drift towards those large businesses which is a direct result of consolidation however there's still a super active market out there so you know we're not kind of saying that there's going to be five providers and that's it there's always going to be all the little little firms doing their own thing in their own place specialities different ways of working so there's still going to be that choice out there I suppose but for many I would argue almost that if you are service by one of these kind of larger firms then you have a lot more of you know what you're going to get because it's it's the way that that firms operate so you know that it's going to be done this way you're going to get access to the latest technology you're going to get access to online portal to be able to go view yourself you can always phone in and get access to somebody straight away because there's a course that you can talk to so there are real benefits of being a client of a large firm as opposed to kind of Bob's IFA around the corner when he's off to Tenerife for a month and you can't contact him there are some real benefits in that so yeah I'm pretty pro consolidation I think there are yeah yeah I am but I want to still see a boy and it's a tapestry right there's a tapestry of different firms and different firms are right for different people and actually there's so many people that need some form of advice guidance support that you know there's a space for everybody and it ultimately comes down to as a seller you understand you know your clients you know what their value you know the service that they provide and if you look out at a consolidate and you say this is brilliant right because they can reduce my clients charges my clients do want more more technology they're going to service those clients in a similar way in terms of whether it's face-to-face or whether it's remote then you've checked out those important alignment pieces for the client and that's great right but actually if you go do you know what my service is more bespoke I don't just look after the assets I look after the business and whatever else I'm used to these clients are used to seeing before times a year and I get together with the accountants solicitor and yada yada right then you're not going to fit that that model because that model over there has 400 advisors servicing 20,000 clients and believe me if I were running a consolidate it would be a process-driven machine because I'd want to know that I was controlling the output right it doesn't mean it's a bad thing but it just means that as a seller or as an owner of a business you've just got to get that match right and as we know there are more there are more than ever a lot of privately owned firms that want to acquire you don't have to sell to a consolidate you need to but but maybe well we've had firms come towards and they've said we don't want to sell to a consolidate we've done a whole market search they've ended up selling to a consolidate because you know they've they've made their decision based on their own experiences after they've been going through the process so it's consolidation is not good or bad small is not good or bad big is not good or bad you've just got to get the match right and it's horses for horses is that the right phrase yes it is yeah that'll do that'll do all right so I think with with me and with AI we've consolidated we've looked at you know time we've been all over the place today so I think we can wrap this up thank you for joining us everybody in the exit exit no got it wrong again exit edit what's the tea I see you next week we're hopefully not ill