The European Parliament and the US

[Music] Hello and welcome to EU Today, a podcast from the Center for European Studies, a Jean Monnet Center of Excellence at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Thank you to the Erasmus+ program of the European Commission, the EU delegation to the US, and the US Department of Education for supporting our center and its programs. On this podcast, we sit down with scholars and policy leaders to discuss pressing issues facing the European Union. We hope you enjoy it. Hi listeners, my name is Alison Haskins, and I am the International Education Program Coordinator for UNC Chapel Hill Center for European Studies. In this episode of EU Today, I will be interviewing Joseph Dunn, Director of the European Parliament Liaison Office in Washington D.C. The European Parliament Liaison Office in Washington D.C., also known as EPLO, is responsible for facilitating the development and strengthening of relations between the US Congress and the European Parliament on issues calling for transatlantic legislative and political cooperation. It contributes to the development of a transatlantic network of legislators and legislative staffers focused on issues that require legislative and political cooperation. Joseph Dunn is Director of the UPLO office. In 2018, Joseph was a senior resident fellow at the German Martial Fund in D.C., and a visiting fellow at the Scharr School of Policy and Government at George Mason University. Up to that time, Joseph was a Director in the Directorate General for European Parliamentary Research Service. He was previously head of Secretariat for the Internal Market and Consumer Protection Committee and Deputy Chief to Cabinet for E.P. President Pat Cox. Before the Parliament, Joseph Dunn served in the Irish Department of Foreign Affairs. He edited the first edition of Mapping the Cost of Non-Europe in April 2014. Hello, everyone, and welcome again to another episode of the Europe Today Podcast with UNC's Center for European Studies. My name is Allison Haskins, and I am the International Education Program Coordinator for the Center, and today I'm joined by Joseph Dunn, Director of the European Parliament Liaison Office in Washington, D.C. Welcome, Joe. Thank you. Well, thank you very much, Allison. Thank you for having me today. Yeah, you're so welcome. We're thrilled to have you. I think I'll go ahead and jump into the conversation here just by asking you if you could tell us a little bit about the European Parliament Liaison Office and its work. Sure, Allison. Thank you. Yes, we call ourselves APLO, which is the abbreviation for European Parliament Liaison Office, and we're the only office of our kind in the world, in fact, the only European Parliament office outside of the European Union. The European Parliament has offices which do information work, but they don't have any other office quite like us, and it's significant because, of course, the representation of the European Union and by definition also the representation of the European Parliament is part of the European Union. That's done by the network of embassies that we have, by the European External Action Service, and they have in Washington as everywhere else, they have an embassy in which they call EU delegation. So we're embedded in the EU delegation, but we're separate, and we were created for the purpose of developing and sustaining the very special relationship between the US Congress and the European Parliament. So if you like, we're responsible for looking at the parliamentary dimension of the EU-US relationship. Go ahead. Yeah, I know I was going to say, and we've been here for 10 years, just after the Treaty of Lisbon came into force at the end of 2009. The office was established here in April 2010, so we've been celebrating our 10th anniversary this year. We made a little video for the website, and we would have had a large reception and dinner if the circumstances had not been dictated by a coronavirus, and we'll have to wait a little bit before we can celebrate our 10 years. But we have used this time, I think, very well, but essentially to establish ourselves on the landscape in Washington and become a known actor to our colleagues in the Congress, and we worked very closely with them. Very interesting. Could you talk a little bit more about that relationship between the Parliament and US Congress? Why specifically, of all the places to put a liaison office, why US Congress and why you put it in Washington, D.C.? Sure. I think it's essentially a tribute to the special importance of the US Congress, and perhaps even to take a step back, it's a tribute to the special relationship we have between the European Union and the United States. I mean, I never get tired of repeating that the relationship between the United States and the European Union is the biggest single bilateral relationship in the world, so we're talking about the trillion-dollar annual trade relationship, which dwarfs every other bilateral relationship, regional relationship in the world, and then we're both continental democracies, as our Secretary General often describes it, so for us, for the European Parliament, which sees itself as the representative of the peoples of Europe and the peoples of the European Union, the US Congress is the obvious first and natural interlocutor. Professor Henry Farrell in his book, well-known book, I think it's called Privacy and Power, he mentions that, in his view, the parliamentary bureau, as he calls it, was set up in Washington because of the increased powers of the European Parliament in the Justice and Home Affairs area, so he links the establishment of the office to the coming into force of the Treaty of Lisbon, which vastly expanded the powers of the Parliament in the Justice and Home Affairs area, and of course, at that time, there were very, perhaps the biggest issues in our bilateral relationship, were the issues around privacy and, you know, data and so on, and remember the passenger names, file all of the swift question, all of these kind of the constellation of issues in the area of Homeland Security, where Europe and the United States took radically different views, and the point in his book, he explains how important the parliament was, and then he says that one of the difficulties was that the congressman didn't see members of the European Parliament as their equivalents, and this was one of the motivations behind setting up the office, so I've tried to verify this hypothesis, and I think it's a generous one, I think the reality may have been that the establishment of the office was coincidental as much as intentional, but in any case, whatever the reason, the timing was excellent. Yeah, that's really interesting, yeah. Maybe talking a little bit more about that work with US Congress, when you guys liaise, right, between the Parliament and Congress, what does that really look like, you know, what kind of services are you offering, and then what issues maybe going off that are the ones that are really easy to talk about with congressmembers, and which ones are more difficult? Yeah, there's a lot in that. Yeah, sorry, lots of questions. Up until now, up until the coronavirus lockdown, the lifeblood of our work here was the stream of visits. We have, I think on average, about 150 members of the European Parliament come to Washington every year, so that in itself is a tribute to how important they, how much value they attach to the US Congress, and so we are obviously be heavily involved in drawing up programs, providing content for the programs, and you know, developing our networks here to make these programs as productive as possible. So that has evolved in the last couple of months, so we've been working more on virtual contacts, and with some success developing what I've been calling Parliamentary Conversations, so we've had some success in getting members of Congress to engage in virtual meetings with their counterparts in the European Parliament, but it's taken a little bit of time to make the adjustment, so it hasn't been easy, but we've moved from a situation where we had, up until the end of February, we had very intense person-to-person contacts, and now we're slowly getting to the stage where we're having a much higher level now of virtual contacts, but it doesn't quite substitute, but you know, it does at least help to advance and sustain the relationship. So that's in terms of the personal contacts, and in terms of what you asked and your question about the issues, I don't, I think there's a difference between the relationship between the, let's say the US administration and the executive, and on the one hand, and on the other hand, the relationship between the Congress and the Parliament, and I wouldn't say there are any issues that are difficult to talk about. I think what you perhaps could say is that two issues that loom large and where agreement is more difficult maybe than in other areas are the issues of trade, on the one hand, where Europe and the European Union tends to, at least these days, sees things in terms of multilateral solutions and sees the reform of the World Trade Organization as the important way forward. So that's an important dimension, which is, let's say, more difficult to talk about than other issues. The second issue is, of course, China, where the US and I think Congress also, in a bipartisan way, would like to see the European Union more closely aligned with US policy positions in relation to China. So this is developing day by day, this is very much the front and center of the debate at the moment, and while I wouldn't say it's difficult to talk about, I think it's maybe that the positions are more difficult to reconcile than in other areas. And then there are many issues, I think we definitely see eye to eye on human rights and the way the treatment that has been given to the Uyghurs in China, including the concentration camps, the situation in Hong Kong, these are issues which are very easy to take, very difficult issues, but very easy to talk about because we have very converging views on them. I have to talk of course about Black Lives Matter, the parliament resolution which was adopted on the Friday before last, I think is a very significant and very powerful development, and there are other issues we need to talk about such as the regulation of artificial intelligence, where we possibly have different approaches, the Green Deal where Europe is pushing ahead with what we're calling the European Green Deal. Certainly. I was going to say, let's say less salient issues. There's no shortage of policy questions to deal with. Yeah, certainly. So what would maybe, from your point of view, be the most important issues in the parliament right now that might affect EU-US relations? Well, I take the first part of that question first. Let's say the most important issues in the parliament, I think, are to some extent European Union issues, because the coronavirus crisis highlighted the fragility of the European Union, as I think Mrs Merkel said recently, just at the moment when we felt we were strong, and then the crisis struck, and it struck very deep, and we came to the situation in the discussion on the multi-annual financial framework and the question of how we were going to finance the reaction and the recovery plan for against COVID-19 and the effects of COVID-19. That really risked bringing the European Union to its knees and the division of opinion over having a collective approach to debt and allowing the more effective member states the way in financial terms rather than just giving them loans with heavy conditions. This issue, I won't say almost brought down, but it certainly was a very difficult issue to deal with, and we're not out of the woods yet, but thanks to the leadership of France and Germany and I think the strong unanimous support of the European Parliament, it looks as though we're heading out of the woods there, and hopefully the European Union will emerge as a stronger entity as a result of the crisis and in the time-honoured way that European Union seems to thrive, ironically seems to thrive on crises and the amount of crises is stronger than before and more resilient than before. So I think that's probably what is behind the Parliament has been calling very strongly for a convention on the future of Europe, and in the last session they asked for this to happen in the next months. I have the feeling that the member states are a little bit less enthusiastic to sit around the table and talk about the future design of the European Union, but it's clear that the events of the last months, the last six months have really brought a focus on this issue, so I would say that's a kind of central issue. Then in terms of issues related to the United States, I think Black Lives Matter is a big issue, the question of a break of how you deal with racism and how you deal with abuses of power by police agencies or other people in positions of power. That's something where I think there can be a very strong, there's a very strong basis for a dialogue and for moving ahead. I would say I'm amazed is the wrong word, but let's say very struck by the strength and comprehensive approach of the European Parliament resolution. The first paragraph just simply states, affirms that Black Lives Matter, which have a very, very powerful parliamentary language, and then goes through the different steps which the Parliament sees should be taken. I think these include action at multilateral level, and I'm personally hopeful that something like a summit on racial justice or some high-profile event which will have concrete follow-up will emerge from these discussions, so there's something I'm also actively working on, have been working on today, in fact, to make sure that this moment leads to concrete outcomes and also becomes another area where we can come closer as EU, US, and come closer together. Yeah, so from your point of view, you see that as a way for the two, like you had said before, what continental democracies to maybe share some common ground? Absolutely. I mean, I think we have, as a general rule, we share and have common ground on human rights and we share the same values, so we agree on fighting human rights abuses in China, and I think we also agree on fighting human rights abuses in our own countries, because racism and xenophobia are not problems which are exclusive to the United States, they are immune, so we have our own fair share of problems in Europe and we're very conscious of that, but also remedial action needs to be taken in our own countries, and I think we can learn from each other and we can help each other. Yeah, certainly. Another big topic in the news would be the coronavirus pandemic, correct? You know, we've talked a little bit how these protests have affected the parliament, how that maybe is in term affecting the EU-US relationship, so how has the coronavirus, which is kind of a completely different type of event going on, how is that affecting or, you know, what does that do for the EU-US relationship right now? Yeah, I think there are multiple levels and you could answer that question. I think at the most superficial level, it's up when it comes to difficulties in the coming weeks and days, because it is beginning to emerge that the US, at least in part, has not managed to deal with the crisis, at least in terms of the data which has been coming out in the last number of days, so it does appear likely that the European Union will impose travel restrictions on United States citizens, and that's obviously a very bad thing in terms of our relationships and complicates issues enormously, but at least from the EU standpoint, it's simply a reflection of objective data, so we would be hopeful that the United States would start again reducing the number of cases and, you know, it's not a question of action against the US as such, but simply a desire to protect the gains that Europe has made, because it does appear and, you know, everything one says in this regard has to be contingent, but it does appear as though the European Union has brought the crisis under some kind of control, even if I see in the papers this morning that hot spots in Austria and such things, and also a need factory in Germany, but it does appear overall, so the epidemic or pandemic has been brought under control, so at that level, obviously there are difficulties. At a higher level, the European Union has tried to foster an international approach to dealing with COVID-19, so also try to encourage an international approach towards developing the vaccine, and the response of the United States has been, at least of the United States administration, has not been enthusiastic on the scope of the, I don't think that doesn't reflect the attitudes in the Congress, and certainly on both sides of the aisle in the Congress, you get much more positive interest and positive desire to do something in terms of international cooperation on COVID-19, and there have been statements to that effect from multiple chairmen and women in the Congress, and yeah, then we talked earlier about how the crisis had affected the European Union in an almost existential way, so hopefully we would be coming out of that, and hopefully the monies that we're spending on recovery on both sides of the Atlantic will lead to positive outcomes. Yeah, certainly, and hopefully we'll also see ourselves out of this pandemic soon enough as well. We very much hope so, yeah. I know that the coronavirus has put a lot of stop on this, so this question might be a bit difficult to answer, but it's interesting to see that the European Union sees itself kind of at the beginning of a new, you know, they've just recently come out of an election, so there's a brand new agenda, you know, I guess we're a year away now from that previous election that had happened at the May 2019 election in Europe, and so now we've got new commissioners, new parliament, new MEPs in parliament, and a whole new agenda, whereas in the US we find ourselves in an election year, which is a lot of people know it's not a great year for policy or any sorts of new agendas from administration. How does this kind of affect your work with Congress or maybe with, you know, Americans in general? Do you take a step back from policy or do you engage more with it? Like, how does the US being an election year affect that? Well, just before I answer a question, I should say that as an Irish person, I have politics in my blood, so being here in an election year and having a front seat as it were is a terrific experience for, you know, elections in the United States are such phenomenally interesting and exciting events. It's a great privilege for me to be here in 2020. In terms of the Congress, I mean, yes, of course, on the one hand, you have a great focus on completing what legislation can be completed, so currently it's the NDAA, which is absorbing basically much or possibly all of the energy of the Congress and they're desperately trying to complete this must pass legislation before the recess. So yes, on the one hand, the attention of the congressional colleagues is very much on that, but there is still room for them to listen to our views. We organize briefings on issues that are important for us. I mentioned already the Green Deal, the question of regulation of artificial intelligence. These issues where the congressional colleagues are very happy to enter into debate. One I didn't mention, of course, was the and one very concrete impact of the COVID-19, which I probably should have mentioned earlier, is the remote voting and remote participation. So the European Parliament has gone quite far in terms of adapting its way of working to allow, has been meeting since March on the floor in a remote form and has been voting essentially by email and has put mechanisms in place which are of great interest to the Congress. The Congress adopted legislation to permit remote voting by proxy, as you probably know, so although it's not being challenged legally, but all of these subjects are still subject of active debate that we're having. And another perhaps one positive aspect of the election year is there may be a window, I'm personally hoping, in October when, let's say key officials or key staff members in the Congress, they might have a week or two break or downtime before the election campaign starts in earnest for them. And we're hopeful that some of them at least might use that time to come and see the European Parliament or to, you know, to get to know a little bit better about how we work on the other side of the event. Yeah, that's really interesting. Maybe kind of as a final wrap up question, if you could see into the future, you know, with all your experience working with the Parliament and working in the U.S., what do you see as the future of EU-U.S. relations? And how has it maybe, how has it changed and what's it going to look like? Yeah, you saved the easiest question to ask. It's difficult to say anything other than that the relationship, broadly speaking, is at a low point and possibly the lowest it's ever been, which is a great shame. But we're obviously in day-to-day basis, we're working against that and trying to weave links and bring the tissue together. But behind that there is, you have the basic undeniable fact of an administration which states publicly that the European Union is full and basically has stopped treating the European Union as the ally, strategic ally, that it feels it is and has perhaps pushed the European Union or has strengthened the idea of strategic autonomy. And you mentioned the new program, the new commission, the new legislative term and certainly the idea of having a geopolitical commission and the idea of a stronger strategic autonomy for European Union is partly driven, let's say, by the new reality or the new attitude on the part of some on the US side. So my feeling is that we can only go up from here in the sense that I feel that I'm, of course, a born optimist, but I feel that our objective, what the objective reality is such is that we have no choice, in a way, in the global context, but to be allies and it absolutely makes sense for Europe and the US to work together, to join together and work together even more closely. We do, we do share values in a way that no two societies in the world do. So I mean, it's undeniable that we, we don't, I can't say, you can't say we see things the same way, but we say we see things through similar lenses and we have objective reasons to work together. And there are no two, to use the expression again, there are no two continental democracies quite like the US and the European Union. Do I believe that as the European Union gets stronger, I think it possibly would be easier for the US to work with us. Part of the problem is always a problem of understanding. The European Union is difficult to understand, even for, even for European citizens. So, you know, it's, it's more than just a collection of the member states. So my feeling is that we are going to, we're moving to, I can, of course, be wrong and you can talk to me a year from now and tell me how it's completely, tell me, to who you are, if you're wrong. But I feel, I feel that the European Union is, is coming together in a strong way and, and I, I think the relationship will, will become stronger and, and I feel uncertain that I will become ever busier here in my position in Washington. Well, we hope you stay busy up there and we hope that the EU's best relationship stays busy and positive. Yes, good thing. I share that study. Yes. Well, I really appreciate you joining us today for this conversation. This has been really, really enlightening. Thank you. I enjoyed it very much, Alison. Thank you very much. So it was a pleasure. Great. Thank you very much. Thank you. Please note that any opinions expressed in the EU Today podcast are solely those of our guests and our hosts and not of the UNC Center for European Studies, which takes no institutional positions. Be sure to tune in for more episodes and subscribe to EU Today wherever you listen to podcasts.