The Epstein CANNIBAL Email is Very Real... | RocaNews

Hey guys, if you're not following me on Spotify, please hit that follow button and leave a five-star review. They're both a huge, huge help. Thank you. Story man. Man of the hour for all the wrong reasons, Jeffrey Epstein. I gotta tell you guys, I have obviously been covered in this case a lot. It is the biggest story of my lifetime, I think, but for all the wrong reasons, obviously, you know, I've studied it religiously since 2019. And yet, when this latest tranche came out on January 30th, it blew my mind. I mean, I really, I knew this was the worst thing. I knew it was total depravity. I knew there were all kinds of powerful people involved. I knew there were all kinds of governments involved, people above cover. I knew that. It's beyond even what I knew. I mean, what was your reaction? I think that the first thing that surprised me was the breadth of it, kind of what you're referencing, where you have everyone from Peter Atia to, you know, all kinds of diplomats, all kinds of businessmen, all kinds of elites involved in one way or another. And it was, it was sort of starting to see, you know, all the post conviction interactions. And that jumped out of me. And now there are some, you know, kind of stories we're following right now that I think are important in terms of the ban and relationship. I guess, I guess my big thing in the, in the large rep scene discourse that we're focusing on is we're a news company. So we, we try not to play the theory game. Some people have to and we think that's an important role. Our role is to focus on the substance. And if I may, I think that it's important for people who really care about this issue to not let the crazies derail it because I think there have been some crazy theories that have gained a lot of traction and you look at them. It doesn't take a lot of research on justice.gov to see how, you know, how, how wrong or misleading or, or weak some theories are that I think are getting a lot of attention. What are those theories to de Caprio eating kids, you know, they're saying the caprio viral to eat tens of thousands of likes. I think cannibalism in general is weak from the latest files. I get that, you know, the reference to the cannibal and that, you know, there is testimony from one guy who, who himself seemed a little deranged and was post-empting death where he claimed there was cannibalism. I think that one's pretty weak. I think there are a lot of kind of red herrings that are popping up. So I think that is where you can, but I think there are some aspects that deserve. If you want real change, if you want heads, you have to be adherent to facts. Because otherwise, I think you made a great point. I think like Howard Lutnik, I think that if I were, another problem is the guy in the White House does all so have kind of a complicated relationship with Epstein over the years where you hear on the one hand, he's his best friend and Virginia Goofrey comes from Mar-a-Lago and you also, he's regularly calling the pad at the Palm Beach House. And then you also have him reporting the crimes to the sheriff and you also have him talking to journalists and you also have him sort of, you know, and in another sense kind of being one of Epstein's biggest rivals. So you have, like, he has a complicated, but Howard Lutnik, you know, I thought you made a good point. Like, why does he still have a job, you know, I think he lied in such an obvious way about his relationship with Epstein? I think we have gotten at this point of like, you know, not caring enough to issue real world consequences. And for some people, you need criminal proceedings for some others, you just need adults to step up and go, you're fired, you know, you, you, you, you know, should not be a leader in a country having kept ties in line about ties with a guy like Jeffrey Epstein. I guess, I don't know, there's so much to talk about. I don't know for us what you would say were your initial thoughts and kind of where you are now. Obviously, thankfully, I was in the Middle East for most of the stuff. Yeah. So I was always taking it from a distance. Coincidence. Yeah. Coincidence? No. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, to me, someone like Howard Lutnik, it's just ridiculous. It's just absolutely ridiculous. I mean, to lie about this, it's obvious the Trump administration's policy with everything is to never show weakness. And if you fire someone and you force a nation, you're showing weakness and you can't do that. The fact that Pam Bondy still has a job, like all these people, I mean, it's just discrediting to the entire government. Beyond that, I mean, I don't know. I read the stuff. I read obviously all the pizza references, the grape soda references and everything, and you're like, what the fuck is going on here, the jerky? But I don't know. I mean, that's like, I've read it. I've read the emails. I've read the stuff. There are a writer, Max Huggins has put up a bunch of stuff. It's been really good. But beyond that, I don't have like a comprehensive theory of it. So let me ask you, so like the jerky thing, I like we've read the same emails. Like I read that and I'm like, okay, this is really weird. Yes. I don't know how to go beyond that, because I'm like, yeah, it's possible they're cannibals. That also seems like a quite a large jump. So I'm, that's kind of where I'm like, well, I don't know. Well, this, this is exactly what I was going to reply to with what you were saying, Toe is that there are things that in the past, even as it pertains to this case, if people brought it up, I would have been like, come on, get the fuck out of here. Please stop. Like you're the crazies are taken over. It does not mean that all those things have now happened though, and people want to run with that. However, there are things, and I have to admit this, that in the past, I would have dismissed and ruled out that on a zero to 100 probabilistic scale, I can no longer say or zero. I cannot say cannibalism is that a zero. Do I think it's at a 90%? No. That's where I'm with you. I don't, I, I think the people are like, or the people are like 100% this happened. I'm like, I need more. Yeah. But what's in those other three million documents that they're holding back? Why is Timber, I tend on to trust people from fucking Congress and governments, so let me put a big, you know, asterisk on this, but why are people like Timberchett who have seen some of those files throwing around terms like cannibalism and stuff like that? You know, like you see these people talk and you're right. The jerky thing could be a lot of stuff. There was a guy I cited on the Karyaku podcast, Steve. Can we look it up? Epstein, jerky, documentary, it's like Dr. Something reacts. I really appreciated how this guy broke down the emails because he didn't draw any conclusions. He just said, here's the emails, here's what they're saying. Here's all the references to jerky. It's weird. Yeah. I will say part of this and at the end of the day, you have to pursue truth. And so even if it makes you like nauseous, like reading the discourse around pizza, for example, where on the one side of you people saying, well, almost all of it was in conversation like most of the pizza references were Epstein talking to his urologist. And therefore, pizza and grape soda in those contexts were referring to medicines used taking for like STDs and other things. And most of the pizza references when you break it down. And then you read other ones and it's not as convincing. And so all of a sudden, you just sort of feel nauseous having to do the due diligence for this story. I also do think a lot of the people who show up to Congress, I mean, there are, you know, a few of them have certainly changed their tune dramatically in the last three years and there are hundreds of millions of dollars at stake. But it's also true that I think that some people who are so micro focused on this story are missing the larger picture. The larger picture being over that from not having a college degree, taking classes at NYU to becoming the most trusted tax estate planner in the world and getting 100, however many million dollars from Leon Black alone and getting the most expensive townhouse in Manhattan for one dollar and being friends with A. Hood, Barack, and two presidents that like that journey is bizarre. And there are just so many profound oddities about the Epstein case. And I just, I'm still in, I don't know what to make of it. I really don't. I really, I know that might sound, you know, like everyone's kind of expected to have a theory. I don't. I really don't like parts of it lead to yes, there are evil people and they have some friends who may or may not know the, the extent of their evil. And they kept up affiliations for one reason or another. Maybe they didn't want to have an explosion, a public fallout, whatever, or maybe they were deep in it. And then there were other parts like the complain Maxwell of all people. His companion is the daughter of Robert Maxwell of all people of all people. You know, and it's like in the connecting and his line to Putin and, um, what do you make of that? I just don't know what to make of it. Well, he, he was connected with, what's clear, Dave Smith actually had a really good tweet on this. I'm not even saying I agree with, but it's a very interesting point to put out there. And he said, I used to think Jeffrey Epstein worked for Mossad. I now wonder if Mossad worked for Jeffrey Epstein. Yeah. I'm not there. But he draws a good point in the sense that it is very, very clear. It is crystal clear that Israeli intelligence. is involved with this, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a fucking duck, and that's an issue. It is also clear to me now that our intelligence is involved with it, too. That was already clear to me, but it's more than I thought. And it is also clear to me that this guy was a peddler like a Robert Maxwell, who peddled intelligence, we know, to multiple different intelligence agencies around the world. I have no doubt that Jeffrey Epstein did things like that. That's why I think Tucker is really spot on about this, about a super government where he's like you elect people, but they work for people who are fixers who work for the real people. And Jeffrey Epstein is the fixer who works for the real people. But why do you think, I mean, like, Robert Maxwell had ties to Soviet intelligence, UK intelligence, Israeli intelligence, American intelligence, right? I don't know about ties to American intelligence, but the first three. Certainly the other three. Yes. So then why, I mean, don't you think they share and tell, I mean, don't you think they just find these, these people and like, I don't understand the thing of being above that. I've heard Tucker's super, super national stuff. I don't really get that compared to, yeah, they've got a guy who's who shares them information and they all identified the same guy. And on the super, I know there's always that clip of like the guy I'm Patrick Ben David, who said, "Heard the most powerful people in the world and you don't know him." I'm like, I get how that's catchy. I don't know if I buy it. And I also think that let's, if you assume that, a lot of things about our world don't make perfect sense. It's also true that the Jeffrey Epstein story needs explanation and there were a lot of bizarre. But like, there are just so many public dissenters. You'd think that they'd be a little better at weeding them out or at least controlling the system more. I'm thinking if they were a super government, what was that? Public dissenters. Just people like, you know, would Tucker be able to speak the way he does if there were this all-powerful? Okay. So here's the difference. The world has changed in the last two years drastically. You couldn't talk about this two years ago. If I put the word Epstein spelled incorrectly in a title, boom, demonetized. We've talked about this. You can go back to episode 39 with Mike Spear. We've talked about this case and have videos demonetized by the way. It's, there was a real lit on this. And what happened is the volume of people rose so large and the story got so out of their control. These people that used to think they could just run the world without any, you know, any of the little people bothering their order of business at all finally got caught with their hands in the cookie jar that they can't put a total lit on this anymore. The world has changed and the fact is and this is just the fucking five hundred pound elephant in the room. You have a guy who was associated with Israeli and American intelligence for sure for sure. That is at this point, if someone does does not say that as a baseline, I can't really have a conversation with them about the case because they haven't studied the case. And we now have three million files that are, oh, it's locked away in violation of federal law, by the way, we're never going to show it to people. We have files that protected people who are tied to these intelligence organizations and now they've had to unredact some of those things because they got caught doing them. And the fact of the matter is when you put this all into context with the fact that the, the Israeli government has had an awful PR campaign for over two years now to where basically the entire world is against the government and what they're doing there. They ain't like that no more was shutting people down. I could have put out a video two years ago. Remember Mr. Beast used to do those videos where when he was young, where he would just say the same word, fucking, I'm going to say this. I could have done a video where I was like, fuck Biden, fuck Biden, fuck Biden, like over and over and over and over again. And it would have, you know, maybe done a million views or something like that. But if I had said that and replaced the word Biden with Israel, you'd never hear my channel again. That is not the case today. That is not the case. You have people who there is such a volume of people speaking against their actions that they cannot put a lid on it. And sometimes, and this is the fucking 60 chest play, sometimes I wonder if that's the idea. Well, I mean, just to like we ran a three part or four part series on Epstein back in 2021 on Instagram. I got over 100,000 likes across and we were smaller pages and we probably had like 600,000 followers. And it was just about about essentially, you know, the argument for why Epstein likely was murdered. But it got out there. That's it. Did you get to like the, did you get to the Intel stuff? I honestly, it was 2021. Yeah, I can't remember. But it did, but it got out. I mean, I think we covered a cost. Yeah, we got that stuff. I just sit like, like, when I look at it, again, I don't, I just don't know. And I haven't gone through it nearly as closely as I will at some point. But isn't it, it's definitely, to me, when I look at it, I don't see evidence. I haven't yet seen evidence that the most egregious things that the child sex trafficking stuff to all these powerful people happen. Well, I have seen evidence of is that he is a lot of people coming to him for prostitutes, coming to him, trafficking, other kind of women. Is that, I mean, I don't know, like, to me, like the whole, you have this, you have this thing. Kids in those trafficking. Huh? There were kids. It's in the emails who's trafficking young kids too. It's in the emails. Fuck yeah. What does it say? They're not even the ones in code. I got an 11 year old. I got a 13 year old stuff. The stuff that Michael Tracy forgets how to read. Well, wasn't the Howard, let Nick one, wasn't that him talking about his own kids when they were dealing with it? That's different. I'm not even referring. That was disgusting to me, but like, that's, that's different. I'm, there are literally emails that I'm going back and forth talking about this. And then, Dave, can you pull up the email of Jeffrey Epstein saying, I'm that guy about the movie? Great. Just, this is all you need right here. Well, yeah, I, can you put up on the screen? Yeah. Yeah. He's going to, he's trying to find it where he's like, where's the other one? God damn it. I thought this was it. I'm sorry. The other one where he's, he literally says, I'm that guy. Hold on. Hold on. He go back. Just trying to read that again. Oh, this email made my blood boil. It's, it's like, you couldn't even write this in a movie. He's like, I almost, I almost, he was like, I almost fell over because I'm that guy. She had no idea. I'm that guy. And it's from the same time, we've got to find that email. December going out of the right now. The friend of a friend's guy, because they want some advice. She said she was working. I just had an Epstein survivor in that chair, by the way, too. Really? Who was traffic to that island? Damn. Yeah. This is a case. This is left and right. It is the most bipartisan case of my lifetime. They're guilty. Yeah. And, and it is such a fucking red line that makes my blood boil when people cannot go look like, when I talk to other people in my life, we're like, I want to say, I'm like, you know what? I get it. You're going about your daily life. You know, I'm trying to look into this, like I do, but like, please read some emails. Please just, just go look at the depravity of what the guy was doing. Listen to the people who survived it and are brave enough to talk about it. It's just, it's beyond the payalty. But my question that I come back to is, is I feel the outrage about getting some justice, getting some heads to roll. But my question is who's? You know, you have to start with actual, you know, targeted. It's not enough to say like, we need the system to like, if we want justice, I always wonder, who do you start with? Like, is it Bill Gates? Well, to my understanding, I don't think Bill Gates went to the island. I think he kept close ties and went to the townhouse a few times in Manhattan. I just always wonder like who goes down and in what order? Because I think that the, my thing is the collective outrage, I think is totally legitimate. It's absurd that, you know, this was blocked out for so long. But like, you do have to be tactical in terms of who to go after. All right, it looks like we're getting another picture up. But I do want to hear your thoughts on that. Like, who do you go after in what order? You go after the people that are clearly implicated in this. But you go at, you go after the people that start with the ones that already have witness testimony all over them. I shout out to the UK for at least arresting Andrew. It's over probably the Al Yamama deal and not this yet. But it, that involves Epstein. But you start with the people who are clearly implicating themselves in here. You start with the fact that you have a guy who was listed as a fucking co-conspirator in the documents that covered up for like Les Wexner, who's fucking in the emails going back and forth with this guy who gave him all his money inexplicably to a fucking college dropout. You start with the people who were traffic in these girls through modeling agencies. Some of them apparently are already dead because they unalive themselves and stuff like that. But you go and dig into the case like you would dig into any other case. And you don't protect people simply because they pay the right people and are very wealthy. I am with you, Max, that it, like my instant reaction, right? Like I'm an emotional guy first and you see some of it coming out right now. I train myself to be logical. I usually don't lose it on camera. I've lost it a few times since this case has come out and I don't, I make no use for that. But like I have to train myself to get it all out, which is usually on a phone call to someone close in my life and then pace around, calm down and look at the logic. So now I'm calm down. And I'll look at the logic now after my little freaking. And the logic is that there is significant evidence against a lot of people who happen to pay all the right people who are wealthy that has been covered up. And that needs to be uncovered up. And we are talking about the most basic fucking thing that everyone should be able to agree on here, which is that you don't abuse anyone, but you especially don't abuse kids. So the fact that they are not that their body has said they're not going to bring any cases about this already. Are you fucking kidding me? What the fuck up about the doubt? Yeah. The doubt. Do you think, is he pulling up the line about the kids? So this is my, this is essentially my understanding of this. So like the way I've understand it, like the stuff that I've seen and I look at it, I'm just like, okay, what I understand from what I've read and what makes sense to me. Jeffrey Epstein was trafficking women. I'm not saying that, you know, whatever. Just like if I like go to the scene, because I haven't seen this one, but I've seen other ones. He's trafficking women to other powerful people and you have these people like the, like the Emirati guy, you know, who's saying, who's, I think they're going to Istanbul, I'm saying, you know, can you bring me some girls here? Like it's very obvious, like what's going on there. The kids thing, that's where I look at it and I'm like, I just, I haven't, to be honest, I just haven't seen the stuff. I'm not saying it's not there and the stuff I've gone through, I haven't seen that part of it substantially. I'm not saying Jeffrey Epstein himself. I mean, he literally went to prison for soliciting a child prostitute, right? Child prostitute, raping a kid. But, you know, in terms of the overall thing of the, of the, of the cabal of these people, you know, taking their turns with these, with these children, I have not seen that substantially. I'm not saying it doesn't exist. I'm not, I'm not rejecting it. But well, I mean, I've gone through a bunch of them. I haven't seen it. But Julian, like, I always, I think that with some of this, like, I hate Bill Gates. I would beg you to look for a news company to that, that has hit AI, I think a heart, like, um, has given it the scrutiny deserves and all these companies making fortunes and all the leaders behind them and the tech world, I'm deeply skeptical of, I'm shocked. It doesn't get more coverage. There's part of me that wonders if Rokana who represents Silicon Valley isn't pushing this issue so aggressively partly because it's a huge distraction, Elon Musk begging for the file release when he's in them in an embarrassing and stunning fashion. And yet he still wants discourse to be Epstein focused, like, there's part of me that wonders what their angle is and all this. But I'm also like, I looked at all the Bill Gates stuff, all of it. And I can't pin him and I can't imagine prosecutors can't pin him to a crime. Should he be societally canceled? That's another question because he associated with this guy. He got divorced over his, this relationship and people warned him about Epstein. So, so maybe on a societal level, we start to look at Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation or the Bill Gates Foundation and just go, okay, we, we, this is no longer a treasured thing. Maybe he shouldn't be speaking at all the Emirati summits or Davos or, um, you know, or the, uh, what's it called, Sun Valley, um, maybe he shouldn't be speaking at all these. But is Bill Gates criminally implicated? I bet less. No, I, I don't know. I bet he would be. I bet he would be, um, Leon Black. I bet he would be, um, JP Morgan. I'd like to see more there. I mean, they, they paid up a big settlement. I think it's like two 90 or something, two 30 or whatever, but, um, I, I do want to see more investigations. I just, I guess I, I'd like to, I don't know, see more, and I don't trust Pambani to do it. Like I don't trust Pambani to do it. But I would like to see some more criminal proceedings, but it's gotta start somewhere. It's gotta start somewhere. It has to start somewhere. And to be clear, there's some powerful people that are fun to talk about because we hate them for a lot of reasons and we hate the fact that they're associated with the guy where right now we don't yet have evidence that could say definitely was with a 15 year old or something like that. Yeah. Off the top of my head. Maybe people in the comments can correct me if they've found something in the emails, but like Bill Gates is a guy that I cannot say right now is someone that we have any proof that he was with a 15 year old or something like that. There's a lot of smoke around it. I'll say that, but there are other people like Prince Andrew where we absolutely do, but like with Bill Gates too, it's like even the Russian prostitute, that was an unsent email from Jeffrey Epstein to Jeffrey Epstein. Is it, do I believe it sure? That's everyone's judgment. I tend to think it's compelling. I mean, Bill Gates, we know cheated on his wife. Yes. That was known. Melinda was very concerned about his Epstein relationship. And that's quite a detailed thing to type to yourself. I think there's not some substance to it. So like to me, everyone can draw their own conclusion on that one. I think it's going by, but like with the underage, that's where I'm like, I mean, also there's Russian girls. I think, I think, I looked into how they were procured in what they're, I don't know. So they would go get 15, 16 year olds from over there. Yeah. Like, so I think there's a lot to look at new and I think Pambani's handling it poorly. I was surprised at how much of Trump world was caught up in this. And it made me almost trust the DOJ a touch more in that they were willing to, and like how would let Nick would have, you know, probably given his life for all that to not come out and Elon as well. But still, I would like to see all the files out, you know, um, yeah. They Nancy Mace, who's been one of the few brave people on this, going after it tweeted out last night that they're not, they're not releasing the rest of the files because it would implicate intelligence matters. And kudos to her for doing that. No shit Sherlock, but I appreciate someone like in her position saying that publicly, but it's like with who? Yeah. Who's it implicating? Yeah. And why is, why is that such an issue? Yeah. You know, and it's because if there's one thing in society, fuck, there's people who have come back from the homicide, you know, in some cases. But if there's one thing that if it's written in stone, you are not coming back from it's being a petal. Yeah. It is the ultimate, as it should be, it's the ultimate scarlet, scarlet letter on all of these people. Yeah. And so, you know, sometimes do we try people on the court of public opinion before we have facts for sure, for sure, and that's not fair, but it is the ultimate blackmail weapon. And by the way, and this is a conversation that, you know, especially right now people don't want to have because there's just more burn everything down, and I get that. But like, are there guys who are probably sitting on hard drives and probably fucking Tel Aviv that show proof that they had sexual relations with an underage kid and had no idea when they were doing it that that was an underage kid. Yeah. I've no doubt about that. But their proof won't matter. There's still going to be, if it ever came out, there's still going to be labeled that way. And there are so many ways to get people with this. And this guy, you are talking about a guy like, in Jeffrey Epstein, obviously a six-sidistic individual, but it is very clear to me, from all the accounts we've heard of him, and, you know, I just had one of them in here personally. He was a master class manipulator. He knew how to, how to, hmm, be like a parasite on your desires and your biggest weaknesses, your biggest touch points, and just attack them. And so we've seen what he can do to so many people, and it's like the rabbit got out of the hat at some point, and these agencies decided, oh my God, we can never let anyone else know about it. And now, people know. And I think it's a, listen, there are enough people who are totally uninformed on this, who haven't kept up with it, which is what the government is counting on, to make this go away while they distract us with fucking wars and ran and all that. There are enough people that if things don't happen soon, sadly cynically, this will drift off and nothing will happen. If that is not the case, though, and a bunch of people keep their voice loud and proud about this and say, we are not letting this go, this is a civilizational threat of a story. And this is the point I wanted to make to give you guys a chance to fight this off. But like, as much as my emotional reaction is like, burn it all down. I know that that ends really badly. If you burn down all of Western civilization overnight, because you've decided that a bunch of people are satanic pedophiles, and therefore everyone is, well, the world as we know it ends. Instead, the harder thing to do, but the right way to go about this is imagine the greatest, biggest, most historical mansion you've ever seen in your life, like from the Roman times and it's sprawling, and it's got a million rooms in it. And you know that a bunch of those rooms are filled with asbestos and turnmites and cockroaches. And they got to go. The easy thing looking at the task in front of you is to be like, I know it's a story, just burn it all down and we'll figure it out later. It's the easy thing to do. The harder thing to do is to put on a hazmat suit and go room by room, one by one and clean it out. That's what we got to do. What about, I mean, all the people who aren't implicated, like in that world view, I mean, that's to say, that's to say that, you know, you have the entirety of the elite, but it's not the entirety of the elite. That's right. Let's look at the Bush administration. For everything George Bush did wrong, George Bush's name isn't in there, is it? Bro, he bombed brown people for the love of the-- Yeah. Sure, but like that, but I'm not I'm not talking about that, but just like his name's not there, right? Or Obama's name isn't there. And like, there's a huge number of people who aren't there, which is to say, okay, then what's the, if, you know, if there is a, so for me, like, look, I guess I struggled to put together the coherent narrative, 'cause if the coherent narrative is everybody's compromised. The idea here was to compromise everybody with power, who has a lot of people who aren't. So, you make it my point. This is what I'm saying. What, you gotta go after those ones who are. That's right. You gotta go room by room. But I guess I'm the rooms that actually have asbestos. But how does that, if, okay, 'cause if there's two ways of looking at this, one is that Jeffrey Epstein is a, you know, essentially a rogue individual who loved me at the center of the social circle. Here is peddling women to all these people or girls or whatever it is. For the love of, let's just say, if you're saying George Bush is bombing them for the love of the game, Epstein's doing this for the love of the game, right? That's one worldview. And then the other is that it's a concerted effort to blackmail everybody, right? And yet most powerful people are not implicated. I mean, there are legions of super, super, super powerful people. I'm talking about Jamie Dimon, right? Talk about, there's all these people who shaped the world in many ways who aren't involved here. Jamie Dimon is implicated. - I was gonna say J.P. Morton's a better guy. - But J.P. - Yes, sure, yeah. Okay, sure, but okay, but you know, whoever. I mean, there's lots who aren't. - Yes. - So how does that, just like I'm not saying this, like whatever, but how does that, like in your view, how do you explain all the people who aren't implicated? - Yes, you're making my point for it. We are seeing so many powerful huge names across culture, across different levels of society, be it politics, be it banking, be it tech, be it international diplomacy, whatever it may be, who are implicated, and the easy angry response to that is to be like there for all of them. I'll give you another example on this. On November 22nd, 1963, the United States government whacked the sitting president. That's a fact. Let's say there was a hundred thousand people working at CIA in Pentagon at the time. You think it's reasonable to say 99,000 fucking 985 of them had no idea that was gonna happen? - I would say yes. - Okay, meaning like it was a small group of people, a little cabal, if you will, that decide to make that decision. - Yeah. - Therefore, and there's a lot of other things that CIA has done very wrong with that's a long conversation. But if we're just looking at this issue, does that mean that you should therefore the next day bulldoze CIA and bulldoze the Pentagon and not have them there? - No. - Exactly. This is my point and you're making the same point as me. We are in agreement. I want to go room by room and find the people who actually are against it. - But my point just because I also, I'm not a big, I think Tucker is, I don't trust him in many areas. I think that first of all, he himself, I mean, talk about it by, he loves to analyze people in their incentives and they're like, sketch you background. I mean, talk about him. Like a frozen food heir who's dad ran the biggest propaganda foundation, got him his start in media, worked with the CIA for decades, voice of America. Yeah, his dad, I mean, in like, he remained very close with them. He goes up the ultra establishment route, calls out people who are pseudo populists and dressed like populists, even though they're of the elites. He's kind of done that reinvention. Some people say it's an authentic conversion. You can sort of read the man for yourself and his biography for yourself and see when he made the pivot. It was after Rox News and getting fired and all that. There were a lot of things about his deed to biography where I just do not trust him. I do not trust him. And I think he's bad faith in many ways. It doesn't mean everything he says is wrong. I think like a lot of people, he may cover things very well and he's just smart guys. He's a very smart guy, he's a good writer, all that. But when he talks about this super government, I'm like, I then start to read American history through that lens. And on the one hand, it's unfulsifiable. Like if that's your worldview, you can probably justify every event through that lens. You can say, well, they planned it this way and yeah, they wanted you to think it wasn't really one of them. But I'm still like, really, you would have picked Trump of all the leaders like to come out into it. Now you make the really good point of the world has changed. So that to me is an interesting theory. We're like this entity may have had more authority 20 years ago or 60 years ago. I love the belief that the CIA used to be a lot more treacherous in the like 60s and 50s. I think they were a lot more emboldened and it's harder to pull some of these things off these days. I guess my entire point there is like, as Ross said, like Obama, I mean, Catherine Rommler, you know, the top lawyer in the White House. That doesn't mean Obama's implication. Exactly. Doesn't mean he surprisingly Biden pretty clear. I mean, you know, like hunter, all that crack and no Epsi. But he, you know, like he had like in bush pretty, the bush is pretty safe. So you have a lot of people and I know people will say, well, something there or a bit we're caught, but still the meat of the operation wasn't. So I'm like, I still think there's a, there's a group like this Larry Summers, Bill Gates, across Harvard, Davos, like I do think there's something there. I am not saying there's not. And again, we've covered the story since the beginning of Roca. Aggressively, you can look at everything from our memes to the number of times we've covered it as a deep dive. All this, my point in that is there's a ton to this story. I just am still like, I still feel like it's, it might be. I just haven't personally pieced it together. And I'm, I'm stuttering over my words just because I, I want to like have some tears and every time I think it's it, I, I just feel like you have to have a really good case before you, you launch it. And I'm still like struck in that, stuck in that spot of like piecing it all together. When I, when I had John in here the other day, the third hour of that podcast is 388 is essentially me. And you know, John's looked at this case for a long time. And there's new information and stuff. And he's looking at some of it. But it's just the third hour really shook me afterwards because much of it is essentially me narrating emails. And looking to John, whose head was just turned to the screen like this with his hand like this. And John Kiryaku, the man who, I mean, he never runs out of things to say, the first two times I ever had him here, they were both two podcasts of peace. He was sitting there for six hours. And I had to like stop him. You know, he was speechless. He was, he was genuinely speechless. Like I knew this was bad. I have talked about how bad this is for a long time. I've talked about how much deeper this may go than we think for a long time. This is worse than even I imagined. Yeah. And you are absolutely right. This and, and it's not a popular thing to say. And I don't care. I won't just say the popular thing to say. Burning everything down at once is not the answer because there are plenty of also people who might, like if you want to use the sake of argument, who might be really bad people. Dick Cheney was a really bad guy. Dick Cheney's not in these files. Right now he's also dead now. But think of the people who are alive, right? Like that's where you have to say, even the people I don't like, if there's not a there there, then don't create one because that's where they win. That's where the people who pool the strings win. They want you to believe everything without evidence so that they can discredit you. And that's why I get really firm on the stuff that very clearly does have evidence. Can you find the email at the one you're talking about with the kids on that guy? Or is that this one? By the way, as we look for that, the number of tech people in the email surprised me. If you want to talk about, by the way, it is that I was frantic earlier reading this. It is that, let me read this again, Max. It is that bottom email right there. I want to read this so I read this too fast, but this is damning. It's from December 28, 2018. A friend of a friend, a friend of a friend skied me because they wanted some advice. She said she was working on a sex trafficking movie. She said she met this really beautiful girl that used to be a sex slave for a guy with a private island. She met this pilot slash girl at Burning Man. I asked her if she had ever met Epstein. She said she hadn't, and I said, yes, you have. She almost fainted. So it sounds like Epstein is sending this to a woman, to another, to a woman he was trafficking. I believe I had seen somewhere he was talking about. He was talking to Moshe Drogovic. Who's that? She was like, I don't really know what to call her. So actually a huge shout out to Sean Ryan and their team because this was a fucking unbelievable call. He recorded a podcast with Moshe Drogovic, who's like this Russian dissenter Putin who's involved in a lot of shit. I actually have to look more in turn to be perfectly honest. But he records this podcast with her. Maybe a year ago, eight, nine months, something like that. And Sean just had a gut, something's off. Something's wrong here. Never tells anyone, never puts it out. She comes out in the emails as not only being tight because then he asked her on camera about Epstein. Because after the emails, he put it out for people so they could see it. Where she denies really no in Epstein much at all. She talked with them a couple times, but whatever. She was one of his main fucking people. She's one of the most cited people in the emails. She's talking with him about racial supremacy and getting DNA tests and then only having parties with people who match a 98% in this case, Jewish blood or more so they can procreate together 'cause they're smarter than everyone. And she was extremely, extremely tight with this guy. And Sean had an inkling. that something was off and he never ran the episode and that is a God tier level fucking that feels a shoutout Sean. - So, but, sorry. Julian, do you think all these people, like I'm just asking just, I'm not at, this is not a leading question. - Yeah, yeah. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Do you think all the people who he corresponds with were involved with the sex traffic? - No. - Absolutely not. And that's not, people want to believe that. The problem is, I'll give you a personal example. Lawrence Krauss is set in that chair. - Yeah. - Lawrence Krauss. And I asked him about it when he was here. I got connected to him through another guest on the show, brought him in here and like when he was coming in, I'm like, we already knew at the time, he was friends with Epstein, but Epstein funded fucking everyone in the Edge Foundation like whatever. So I asked him about it and he answered it. He was kind of, it was quick on the podcast. He was like kind of flipping about it, but he was like, he came in and funded stuff. We take money from people that fund stuff. He was like, very direct about it. And we got along well. 7,500 emails, trying to get Jeffery Epstein on the Joe Rogan experience after he went on himself in 2017. Like the chances of him not knowing something are low. Does that mean he's guilty? - No. - 7,500 emails. - 7,500 emails. - That's a lot. - Okay. - That's a lot. - Like, that's a lot. - That's a lot. - Like 11,500 emails. - Yeah. - What was he doing all day? - But your question is exactly what you should be asking journalistically. The thing is when you're so caught up with this guy many times post-conviction, - Yeah. - You have to be like, it's just, the burden of proof is on you to prove that you didn't. - I am, I, but yes, maybe in a social setting, but in a criminal setting, that's why I like the proof. To me, I have like a laundry list of stuff to look into. I still think his tech ties are crazy, especially in later stage Epstein. Like the number of people, one area, like if you look at president, it was actually like, you know, I mean, Trump and Clinton, but again, Obama, Biden, Bush, pretty clean. But if you look at the, the wealth list, it's pretty surprising. It's pretty surprising how many of like the tech people are implicated or at least involved. So to me, like less Wexner is on my lot of like the people who need a closer inspection. Steve Bannon, oh my goodness. I mean, that interview. Well, I just say, what's your guy? I haven't watched it. What's your guys take on the Steve Bannon? - Well, he's rehabbing Epstein and trying to get him through this system. Now, to what, what, you know, Steve Bannon also seems to have like this weird streak of wanting to be a villain. So maybe this was, I think the most, ironically, the most generous reading is he wanted to be like an edge lower and get involved with that. I think though that the degree, which, I saw an interesting read that the Epstein belong intelligence line, because that was an Alex cost on a mic that was a senior White House aide saying a cost to set it and that they now think that maybe Bannon originated that and that basically, he deserves a closer inspection. I mean, if you're his PR guy down the stretch, that's pretty well. - Is this Bannon's standing with his audience? - I would think so. It should have. I mean, he talks about the global elite all day and he's working like advising that is insane to think about. I think Leon Black, I think, how about Leon Blacks? You just want to talk about optics, Leon Blacks. And by the way, sons are not guilty of what their father is, but from an optics perspective. - Yeah. - These allegations have been out against Leon Black forever and his son works in the administration. It's like a, it's like, dude. - Yeah. The William Barr dad's built by the way. - Yeah, by the way, who's in charge of the transition to the administration? How would Lutnik? Lutnik, to me, I think we have like overthought some of this too, where like that was a big lie, you should get fired. You're fired. I think some presidents say what you want about like Obama and Bush, they would move people out of there. If there was like a scandal, and I know people are like, they were so deep state, they'd, I mean, Eric Holder, I guess is an exception. - Trump too? - Obama. But Neuron, I'm saying Trump. - A costa? A costa? - Oh, that's true, that's true, that's true, that's true. But I'm sorry. It's 10 days. - Well, Trump term won fire at everybody. - But yeah, this term, he's like, what is Cash Patel have to do to lose a job? - Yeah, that's what, that's my question. - I think the weakness point is one reason he doesn't want to be perceived as weak. I'm saying he should be moving them out. - So why is he not? - Why Pambondi? I think it's probably either the weakness point or he doesn't want them to rat on what they know, and maybe they know more than he'd like us to believe. Like, if Bondi hit the podcast circuit, who knows what she's seen that they don't want out there? Who knows what Tell All book she could put together about what Trump said about releasing the files and calling the American, I'm sure like Trump was like, these fucking idiots won't drop this story. Guess what, I was friends with them. Everybody was friends with, who knows what Quotie has? I'm making these up, obviously. I bet you Pambondi could write a pretty explosive Tell All. I think that's another reading. I'm sure the audience will have some more theories, but I don't know, but I think that like, there should be some basic accountability. Elon Musk on this, I'm not looking past that either, by the way, I don't think he's - Should have answered for them. - I don't think he's like criminal per se, but like to want the epic parties, girls for the win, and to consistently insist and they get rejected from the Pito party. Not that it wasn't Pito party, I do. I do, again, we're in a different position. Like, I don't want to say things that aren't true, but going to the island is like, it's like that college party where like, whatever house it is, whether it's the wildest frat or like my college didn't have frat, but there was always a house where like, you didn't know what was going on there, but you knew the hardest drugs were happening. You knew the girls that ran around there was a little weird and whatever. Like, when you walk into that house, you kind of know what you're signing up for. You don't know exactly what's going on. I think a lot of people knew vaguely what Epstein was known for, like Trump in the early 2000s saying that younger women, even younger than I like 'em, you know, that line like in the New Yorker profile. Yeah, I guess a lot of people knew what he was about and still ran into circles. Not too, so last weekend in our app, every weekend we do five deep dive stories in the weekend, three of them last week were about Epstein. And the, I was looking at the feedback from our readers. And it's very, very, I'd say like 70% want more of the content. They're, I mean, they're just horrified by everything. They think it's a story of the year and a story of the century and all this kind of stuff. And then the other 30% are essentially in the, it's a cover-up, it's a distraction. Red herring. Red herring thing. And I do say, I mean, the point that two may be four, I do, so again, like I really, I'm not at all, I just don't know what to make of it, right? I want to learn more about it. I want to keep re, I want to keep attaining information, just figuring out where it is. I mean, I don't think obviously nothing should be off limits and we should be pursuing the truth in every single aspect. I do worry about, dude, I think this AI stuff, man, it is fucking terrifying. It's terrifying. And it's happening. Just in the period, since like, say July, when this Epstein stuff really started popping off, dude, like the AI stuff has, it's become everywhere. I mean, it's starting to shape everything. And this is what everyone's talking about. So I do, I think two things can be true. I mean, there can be smoke and fire. And it can also be that this is all everyone's talking about. Like, I'm always to say, this is my own opinion. I'm terrified about the AI stuff. I think the economic ramifications of it are massive. I think the social to control for the government. Everything, I think we're looking at a, potentially the most destabilizing period ever for the US. I mean, like, maybe it's a great depression, but in modern times. And instead, people don't even, people don't talk about it. And it's just, to me, it's like, and I know a lot of people think if you put it up on YouTube, it's gonna get censored and everything, which I definitely, I mean, the certainly one video we did, I did not do well. So you put an AI in the title. It's done, dude, it's fucking done. Here's why I'm kind of of that opinion of, well, well, two opinions. As we just said, we did a little 600%, or we bat 600 on Epstein stories last weekend. Like, we're gonna keep covering this. You have to walk in Chugam in our business, especially when Trump spreads it. There are 15 million stories going on awards. I think that I, and so these stories shouldn't be competing. They're separate. I do get skeptical about why Rokana. I mean, why weren't they clamoring about this? Oh, by the way, listen. I don't give Rokana, Thomas Massey and Nancy Mace I will admit because of how hard they're going in on this. They are a separate entity for me. That is a separate thing. But, but don't you think they may have their own motives? Like, I don't doubt that like Nancy Mace, I look at her record and how little I trust her and how like full of shit she seems in the reports from Stanford and the Tommy G documentary about Epstein four or five months ago. It's worth watching? Yes. Because you can tell she's still trying to tow. She tried really hard to tow the Trump line and then look no farther than Marjorie Taylor Green who talked about, this is a woman who, when they were forced to wear massac Congress, wore a fucking Trump mask on her mouth. She was the biggest, mega person ever. And she talks about that conversation with Trump where she's like, I'm trying to help you guys. I believe you. I don't think you're guilty. Get out in front of this and he's like, you don't understand. I have friends who are going to get hurt. You have peto friends who are going to get hurt? You're covering up Lex, like calling Lex Wexner a friend, which we now know that's one of the people he's referring to in the year of our Lord at the time. I'm 2025 is fucking insane, but Marjorie Taylor Green allegedly did the pivot after she didn't get the Trump endorsement for George and why didn't she get it, but I don't necessarily buy because she's politically unpopular. Like I'm not a Marjorie Taylor, I know, I know, I know, but my point is my point is I'm, I, I think that those three are, I think have a grandstanding track record. I don't think Thomas Massey has that. I, and Rokhan is a guy I actually like when the Ukraine war broke out with like I felt like I actually looked at it somewhat diplomatically at the time. I don't know his voting record on all of the fucking fucking Ukraine, but he supported the insider trading bill and then it turns out he has traded. I think the second most of any sitting congressman and it's like Thomas Massey, there's always been a history of a libertarian who loves the spotlight. Does it mean everything he does is wrong? No, not at all. But it does mean like I do wonder when people are so vociferous about this. And you know, I, I just do wonder why they're doing that. I think if you're going to examine motives, you got to look at everybody's motives. You do. Nancy Mase has like the most insane track record for her ex staffers and I don't take that lightly. My point on all this is that I, I think that like AI is like in the last week, let me put it this way. There've been some disturbing Epstein revelations. There's also been Sam Altman talking about humans, guzzling up more resources than AI when it comes to acquiring new knowledge. And that comes on the heels of him saying in 2015, he thinks that AI will end humanity, but a lot of great companies will be created in the process. That's the CEO of Anthropic, Dario who also himself heads his weird track record to talk about AI destroying humanity. I mean, and we're like, I think that, that to me is more top of mind personally. I think both their massive stories and I do wonder about those pushing this aggressively. Everything is a distraction for everything, bro. The warn, the potential warner on here is a distraction for Epstein, which is a distraction for AI, which is a distraction for some other fucking government take up. Everything is a giant circle and a distraction. And I agree with you. You have to look at everything and the soup, the jurors, whatever the moment is and some people know more about other things than some other things. But like, yes, I'm not going to let this go. No, fair, fair, fair, fair, so like it is so black and white at this point. And again, there's some stuff that is not at the worst end of the spectrum that I'm rooting to not be true, by the way, as much as I hate Epstein, I'm not rooting for it to turn out to be like, yep, there was cannibalism. I'm not rooting for that. But like the fact that I can't rule that out, reading this stuff should shake people to their core. And it's just, God, I'm just, this one is really, this really, really fucking, yeah, yeah. I mean, look, I don't, I don't know what Donald Trump's the full extent of his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein. I've defended him in the past as it pertains to Jeffrey Epstein and things that he did out in front, talking to Brad Edwards, the victim's attorney in fucking 2007 and going on the record being the only guy who would do it, talking about him off-handed during the 2015, 2016 campaign about the, he got brems at that island. Now he's coming out there going, I like Bill Clinton. Why? Yeah. Why? Yeah. That is why. You guys are journalists. Why? Yeah. You guys are actually real journalists. Yeah. Like that. If you are not asking why is Donald Trump suddenly saying that about a guy who he stared in the face during a fucking presidential debate and said he raped people, why is he now like, ah, I still like Bill Clinton. Right when Bill is going to go talk like, I mean, there ain't a defense attorney in America who will, who won't tell you off the record that not to say he's guilty, but that the behavior doesn't look guilty. Yeah. I mean, Trump is not someone a client, if I were defense attorney, I would not want him as my client personally. You may not want you to pay because, because a lot of what he does is inexplicable. I don't view his moral track record as favorable even before all this. So like, I'm not, I'm not a Trump defender by any means. But yes. No. I mean, Trump has the power to free, to release all the files. Comes out to him. It's not Pambondi. It's him. Right. So it's just, it's clear. But like, that's, that's it. I mean, so, so what's going to take to get him to do something? Nothing. Right. And also every administration before this since Clinton has covered this up, they deserve absolutely no credit for this. Well, that's a thing. I don't give any political credit to people right now. I told you those three are kind of a separate category. Everyone else can fuck off. They get no credit. They covered this up forever. Yeah. Yeah. They, I think a lot of people, they love the game of noble lies. We saw this during COVID where they'd rather hide the truth from the public. So as to not make them look better, their institutions look bad. And I think that, you know, a lot of people like, trust in governments, low, trust in Congress is that a historic low, which it is. And then they're like, so you know what we can't do? We can't show that we've been hiding this for a while. And so yeah, I think there's been this, this, they are way too comfortable with noble lies in the government. Like, let's hide this from the people. Um, I mean, I do think there are state secrets. Like, I think it's dumb to just, I think some people like, open source the government and you can't do that. But there are issues where they don't trust the public and that feeds the public's distrust. And so that is outrageous. I think that's why a lot of people, we see it around the country and rural white communities and they're just like, I just don't trust the authorities. I, you know, and that's a big, frickin problem right now. Yep. Yep. There's certain things that need transparency and a light shine on them, especially when it's done. Yeah. Right. Right. Right. And this, this, this stuff has happened. Yeah. We've been in the future and we can try to prevent the environment that allowed this to happen and anyone who's involved should, should be called out on that, you know, if I can't help but think and if, if, if fucking China were involved with this, these, these documents would have been released fucking six years ago. Yeah. But they're not. Yeah. I mean, the thing that, the thing that honestly scares you now, I think we talked about this last time, but it's like, okay, well, if this is happening then, like all these people talking about 2010s, 2000s, 2010s, right? Well, since then, it's like, obviously, it's not like this kind of stuff stopped. So it's like then, and then I, I can't remember, is you who set up when you're here last time or someone else I was talking to, but the person made the point that like, well, you don't really need the jeffrey obsc now because everything is recorded on your phone and literally everything. Yeah. So it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, there's nothing's private. If, if you're doing something illegal, if you're doing something, you know, that's going to put the scarlet letter on you, somebody knows. And it's just, it's disturbing. Well, I mean, all this stuff is extremely disturbing. But like, again, dude, the combination of this stuff, the tech stuff, every, I mean, it's, yeah, it's a, it's a dark time. It's, yeah. Well, it gives me hope, our people. I think traveling the country, you see great people everywhere. I think of my loved ones and like, all the, there is like a lot of human decency and so much value to life beyond, you know, your view of your governments and politics and culture war and all this stuff. So like, I do kind of rest on that. I think this is a great reminder of not placing too much faith in government and, and, and instead recognizing the, you know, deeper truths of life and the more valuable things. Um, and I, you know, on AI and I still remain hopeful. I really do. I think that, you know, we don't see the unseen sectors that'll be created and we don't, we may underestimate the resilience of our species. Like I saw yesterday that there was the 20th anniversary that I pod many coming out and I'm like, dude, that was only 20 years ago. Think about life today. Yeah, it's nice. And I'm like, and we're okay. I mean, you know, more or less okay. Yeah. Um, and, uh, yeah, so I guess, I guess I get some hope from that. Yeah. Dude, insane time. I mean, it's like it's a good time to be in the news base. It is. It is. We didn't even get to talk about El Mencho. We did not. I'm going to be having a podcast coming out right after this with Katarina Schultz. She's coming back into town. And let's just say she was, uh, she's on this story, but it's like, she's covering it inside. But yeah, there's this so much going. It's like, you can't even decide. I appreciate you guys being good sports about this. I get worked up. Yeah. I just, I mean, I should be more informed on it, like I said, I got back Sunday and I was like, I started running. Well, yeah. Yeah. But I mean, it was just, honestly, it's like I was gone and just like being in the mountains of Lebanon, I was like, yeah, she's going down. Yeah. One of the things the Epstein survivor talked about when she was in here with, she came from the modeling world and she was, she was just talking about how obvious it was. Really? Like the whole, and it's not just Epstein at all. Like, like, like, she's like, obviously, like, he's the worst guy I knew, but they just traffic you everywhere, you know? And then she just got out of the modeling business. She was a modeling scout for 15 years after she was a model. Wow. And she's like, listen, there's aspects of the industry that I enjoy that are great. But then there's like this underbelly dark side that's just totally wrong, you know? And when you see that and what, you know, she was traffic to them all kinds of times. And she was one that was of age. But, you know, she would, she talked about the one time that she saw, like, a 13 year old girl in the car when she got in there, she talked about when she was on the island. There were girls who were under age there with Prince Andrew. She's, you know, like, she's just inviting the Prince for the views. Yeah. Yeah. It's it. It just is what it is, man. But to your point, you got to go piece by piece and real, you know, if you want to shun everyone who's in the files, because they shouldn't have been associated with them, that's fine. When it comes to the criminal prosecutions, which I want to see, which apparently they're not going to do, but I want to see them in push form, you have to get evidence on it. And you have to get direct evidence on the people involved. And we have evidence, obviously, on the people that were running it, but we got to find the evidence on the people on the powerful people who were clearly, you know, it's like running a recon case with the mob. That's effectively what this is. Thank you guys for checking out this clip. If you haven't already subscribed, please subscribe and hit the like button on this video. It is a huge huge help. And if you'd like to check out this clip, full podcast episode, that link is in the description below or right here. And finally, you can follow me on Instagram and X by using the links in my description below.