The Driver

First, a program note. The following podcast includes adult situations and language. Okay, today's date is October 14th, 2012. It's 2 o'clock in the afternoon, St. Louis time. We're at the St. Louis Police Department. I'm Detective Robert Cyril, number 31595, Los Angeles Police Department, robbery homicide division. Also, President in the room is Detective Darren Versailles. Darren Versailles, number 114, Paschule, Miss City. And also, President Anna Kimball from the Detective Anna Kimball on the task force officer with US Marshal, St. Louis City Police Officer, DSN is 3954. And we are present talking to Danny Douglas. Okay, Danny. It's late 2012, and suspected serial killer Sam Little is in a California prison serving a three-year sentence on drug charges while the LAPD is quietly putting together a murder case against him. There's DNA connecting him to two murders of women back in 1989, but this is no easy case. In fact, Sam Little has been accused of murder twice before. In his four-decade long run of violence and crime, but both times he managed to slip through the cracks and adjust the system and walk away. Free to continue his attacks on women across the country. The LAPD and lead Detective Missy Roberts are methodically building a case they hope will keep him from ever-breathing free air again. I'm Michael Connolly and you're listening to Murder Book. This season we are calling our story the women who stop Sam Little. In this episode, we're going listen as Detective Missy Roberts, conducts an interview with a very reluctant witness, a man who might know more about Sam Little's life of crime than anybody else alive. His driver. I need your help. Put them to rest. You're not killed, but you knew one. Come on, you say you like choking. Okay, so let's set the stage here a little bit. As we've covered in the previous episodes, Drifter, Conman, and Petty Thief, Sam Little was connected by DNA in 2000. The DNA in 2012 to the sex killings of Audrey Nelson and Guadalupe Apidaca in Los Angeles more than 20 years earlier. Both victims were women from the streets. They had records of prostitution and drug use. And the prosecutors at the District Attorney's Office were worried that the DNA would not be enough to get a conviction against Sam Little. They wanted more evidence and that put cold case detective Missy Roberts and her partners on a cross-country journey to find it. They talked to victims who had escaped Sam Little's violence in the past, law officers who had investigated him, and reviewed the prior murders that he had once been charged with. They were in essence putting together the puzzle of Sam Little, the MO, if you will, and the final piece was a man named Danny Beckless. In the early 80s, when Beckless was only 17, he was procured by Sam Little as a driver, taking him and his shoplifting partner, Oralia Dorsey, around the South as they moved town to town and motel to motel. By day, Oralia was a hit-and-run shoplifter. By night, Sam was a marauding predator, picking up women on the street and in bars, attacking them and sometimes killing them. Detective Roberts, New Beckless, if she could find him after so many years, would be able to give them a picture of that time. Here's Detective Roberts. He was important for several reasons. Number one, because Sam and Oralia were very mobile and they traveled across the country just like Sam did, and they were doing their shoplifting during the day, and Sam was doing his business at night and going to bars and drinking. And so they just happened to be, I believe it was in Arkansas, staying at a roadside motel, and Danny Beckless, who I believe was only 17 at the time, was living there with his family, and Sam and Oralia promised the family that they had a retail store in Florida, and that if Danny came with them, they would give him a job, and Danny could send home money. Well, basically it was sort of like a weird way to kidnap this kid, because once they had him, they had no such store, and they would force him to go into these five-and-arms or these stores and steal clothing and jewelry and things like that, and then they would sell them from the back of the car. And Sam would use that money to go out at night and drink and pick up the women that he did. And Danny told us later that he couldn't get out of the situation, because he had no money, he had no car, he basically just only had those two, and he didn't even really know where he was at the time, if you think about yourself when you're 17. And if somebody were to take you to another state, I don't think I would really know how to get home with no money, no job, depending on these people. And so Danny knew Sam's habits, and although he was only with him for a very short time, he knew his day-to-day routines, and we wanted to hear about that. Like, what did he do in the morning when he got up? What was he driving? Where were you staying? Where did you travel? What did he do at night time? Did you go with him? And then there was the chance that Beckless may have been an accomplice, that maybe he helped Sam get these women and hurt these women. So he was very important to us for those reasons, and that's why we really wanted to talk to him. Roberts first came across Beckless in the files from the 1982 murder of Patricia Mounce. Mounce brutally beaten body was found on the side of the road near Gainesville, Florida. She had been strangled, and she had last been seen leaving a bar with a man resembling Sam Little. He was using the name McDowell at the time, and he was arrested. Investigators interviewed Beckless, his driver, who revealed that he had seen Oralea Dorsey cleaning up Little's car the morning after the murder. Removing women's clothing, jewelry, and even human feces from the vehicle. He was probably the number one witness in the Patricia Mounce case in Gainesville, Florida, and what happened was when they were looking for him to go to court, he had already went home. He went into the merchant marines, and they couldn't find him, and that was really one of the big reasons why that case, why Sam Little was acquitted on that case, because they couldn't find Beckless. Even though when I talked to Beckless, he said, "I was right here." I mean, they just weren't looking in the right places for me, because he claimed he had just went home, and that they knew where he was. But for whatever reason, they couldn't find him, and he wasn't there, and he had some great information in that case about the morning after and finding the feces in the car, and Oralea Dorsey cleaned up the car. Despite not being able to find Beckless, the trial proceeded in Gainesville, and Little Slash McDowell was acquitted. Beckless didn't testify, but Oralea Dorsey did for the defense, giving Little an alibi for the night of the murder. McDowell was released in January of 1984, and by October of that year, he was in San Diego, where he would be arrested in the act of strangling another woman. That's a case we'll look at in the next episode. Roberts believed Beckless could be a key witness in the new case being put together in LA. She just had to find him. So we had his name, we had his birthday, we had enough information, and now with all the computer systems we have and all the information, it wasn't that hard to locate him, or at least kind of pinpoint him to a town, and we had pinpointed him to, you know, just sort of the outskirts of St. Louis. Roberts went to St. Louis, and with the help of a local investigator and detective Versacea from Mississippi, Beckless was located after a day-long search and brought in for questioning. By this point, Versacea had reopened the case of Melinda LaPrie, whose murder Sam Little was arrested for in 1982, only to be released for lack of evidence. So here's the interview of Beckless, edited for time. Listen as these three pros take this man back 30 years to a time he clearly doesn't want to remember. We're not trying to trick you, right? We know a lot of the answers, but let me just tell you that for almost all of the questions that we asked you today, we pretty much know the answers, okay? So that's why you should just be truthful with us. You have to trust in us at some time that you're not going to be in trouble. You're not in handcuffs. We haven't even talked to any sergeant like you're going to get booked or anything. We're not booking you. I'm from Los Angeles, here's my card, okay? You already have Darren's, he's from Pascagula, we're not going to come here and just St. Louis and book you for something, okay? You're you're you're a witness and maybe even the victim, okay? And that's what we came here to talk to you about, but you got to be honest with us. We have to at least have that rapport, okay? So it's just about having the Florida. Yeah, what happened to Florida? No, the guy, the same to what's his name? How long has been back in the 80s, really? What do you remember about that? Tell us what you remember about that. What was the lady in this guy? What was the lady's name? I don't remember the lady's name so long. I kept a record on my back because it's nothing so long. Okay, go ahead, tell us. I'll start. She was a shoplifter, okay? And he used to go out, you know, he used to go out and you know, you say there's no tales. Something happened by his, or late somebody's with a guy to get to something and he sort of been involved in it. And you need to take to that thing, what happened? I don't know because I told him the scar that he did it, you know, because he had a bite mark on his hand. Okay. The bite mark was on his hand and you hadn't seen it before? No. Okay, so he came home and he had a bite mark on his hand. He'd be able to come here and stay in the hotel at the time. Okay. So he came home from state to state. You don't remember the guy's name? I felt how old was he? I felt his age of 60s. Was his name Samuel? I don't know. If we showed you a picture, would you remember? Yes, I would. I don't know if you get to picture. I want to make sure we're talking about the same guy. I don't know if we get to face. Okay, good. That's him. Okay, just for the record, he's identified a Pasca Gula PD booking photo of Samuel Little aka Samuel MacVal. So this is the man that you remember that you were with him in Florida? Is that what you're saying? I'm feeling a lady. We don't have the lady's picture right now. No, we don't have the lady. She's an older lady than him? No, we don't. Yeah. Was her name Aurelia? I don't know. You don't remember? Okay. Okay, Danny. This is what we need you help for. This is what we need you. Seriously? And I know you've had birds on your mind for a few years. We want you to tell us everything you know about this man. I didn't even know him. What would you make you do? You would make me drive around. What else? Nothing. You drive around to different stores and stuff. Okay. Would he ever make you do anything else? No. Okay. Did you ever see this guy with prostitutes? All the time, yes. Okay. Tell us about that. Tell us about that. Yeah, I know. I think it's really all right. He really looks alike. He really looks like a little different clothes and stuff. Different nightclub type things. Yeah. Okay. No, he got me off and picked him up. Would you pick them up or would he pick them up? You pick them up. Okay. And then what would happen? He would see him to like six o'clock next morning. He would disappear. Yeah. And you said that they were investigating him because something happened to a prostitute. And you noticed by Mark? Yes. The thing that happened was she had that couch office and everything. All three of us together. Okay. And they talked to me. They had nothing to do for like a couple of days. And as they had in physical, no, talked to me, interviewed me. I told him, well, no, what I thought, no. The thing that was, no, I felt that he was, no, he was like with prostitutes and high-heat treated her. So, no. You got into it with a lady, you went down in the club. And I sat out and whatever. Tell us about that time. He was. What happened in there? He was drunk. And he, he got me the lady, cos the lady was in talk to him. So, he started cussing out and wanted to fight the lady out. I wouldn't let him have to. I wouldn't let him do it. You protected the lady? Yes. What was he saying to the lady? He cut out all over her name. You can say it. We've all heard it. You should hear how she talks. You could just tell us what you remember. He said to her. We did try to be respectful. Yeah. She's kind of happy. We know, we realize you're very respectful. You've been nothing but respectful. But we just want to hear everything. We come to the beaters and hoes. And she ain't. No. She wasn't never a tragedy. And she wasn't his type of no way. So. I talked to him and get in the car. And we've been back to the hotel that night. By the way, what kind of car were you driving? He was driving back to me. He had an old station wagon for this station wagon. And then a black Lincoln. A black Lincoln. Like a Mark V. Okay. So he had two cars. Yes. Which, and you, it used to be both? He drove the Lincoln on the ground. Okay. Tell us about the station wagon. The station wagon. There was a Liberty Shorts Model Station wagon. With Jim Pergano, they were on the highway. So he takes out driving on the Lincoln. What color was the station wagon? Thank you. It was like brown. I'm sorry? Brown. Brown? Yeah. Okay. All right. Tell us. And I know it's kind of. First of all, let me tell you something. This man. Were you scared of him? He was a terminator at times. Did he ever hurt you? No. Okay. Just so you know. We have a custody in California. Okay. And he's never getting out. If I have my way, he's never getting out. So you don't have to worry about anything like that. Like he's out here or he's out and about. He's in custody in California. So what Darren, I would like you to do is just. Even if it's scary or you think maybe you shouldn't talk about it. If you know something that you think would be of interest to us, we'd just like you to share it with us about this man. Anything you could remember, what he was doing out there, besides shoplifting and things like that. He didn't do anything they'd hurt to do it. He always beat her and made her do it. She said-- He didn't want to beat her and made her do it. You would beat her? Yeah. I mean, that's huge. The short lady is about four foot tall. She had a bare leg from him to hit on her and stuff. Yeah. She had one better cause he hit an eye. Really? Yeah. Okay. What else would he do with the prostitutes? Yeah. We needed everything. I tried me off. I mean, that I wouldn't know. That I wouldn't know my kind of life. I didn't believe in that. Believe in what? The prostitution and stuff like that. The sex part or something he was doing. I mean, I'm believing-- I feel that for me, I'll be with somebody. He won't be with them. He won't have to go do all of it. You know, let's do other women. Do what to women? Let's do it other women. Oh, so you were offended by-- He was doing it against Orelia? Yeah. I mean, no major to do that. If you got somebody at home, you shouldn't have to do it. Right. And about the prostitutes, what do you have any-- What do you think he was doing with them? He's like a mistreat winner. He was very aggressive when it came to winner. And can't tell us about that? I mean, only when I was seeing him hit on Westville lady. But obviously, you have-- you formed this-- Yeah, I mean, because you were the night that he had been-- I know he was with a lady then. Because he got something he told me. He said, then, the woman beat me. He said, the bit more, the bit me. Is this the girl that-- what happened to that woman? They said she was dead. And that was in Florida. Yes. And he told you the woman beat me. Yeah. And you were supposed to testify in court, correct? No, they didn't tell me that. OK. But they interviewed you about it. Yeah, they interviewed me about it. And they detected it. I was just-- no. I was just pumped back to the audience. We'll come back to the interview and listen to how the focus changes to murder after these words from our sponsor. Today's episode of Murder Book is sponsored by the Hashep book group, which happens to be the publishers of all my books, including the new one, The Law of Innocence. Take a listen. From the number one New York Times bestselling author, Michael Connolly, the Lincoln lawyer is back. This time, Mickey Haller is taking on his toughest client ever, himself, framed for murder. Mickey will call upon every courtroom skill he has. But a not guilty verdict won't be enough. He needs to find the real killer. That's The Law of Innocence. Michael Connolly can flat out tell a story grapes the Boston Globe. Pre-order the New Lincoln lawyer novel The Law of Innocence, available November 10th in hardcover e-book and audio, wherever books are sold. Continuing now with the Danny Beckless interview, Did he ever talk to you about what he would do with these prostitutes when he'd pick them up? No. He'd come back and tell you about it. No, no. Did O'Reilly? No. But he would say, he would say, you know what I want to say. He would say, now I will talk to you that you are there. I heard. What? Will you send it again? I'll tell you I heard on him. Tell O'Reilly, the old lady. Yeah. So he won't talk to you about it. No. Would she talk to you about it? She is a cry to me all the time. What would she say? As he treated her and he'd be going out with the wood. No, he'd be with other women and stuff. He wouldn't tell me everything. Would he go out with prostitutes a lot? Yeah. Every time they went through, he would always know what. Always. Yeah. A lot of things up in that mind. You don't want to remember anything. I just don't. It's so long. It's something. No. So how are you? Hey, Danny. This is what I tried to do. I don't really have a dog in this fight. I mean, this is their case. But I mean, you told us you could actually remember the hotel you were at in Little Rock. And you remember even that the plates were Alabama plates. So you get great memory. So what I think is. And I think you're afraid of him. No. And I can see some of the things you're painful for you to remember. But you're a good guy. I can tell you're not like Samuel was. You try to protect these people. You try to protect a really. You're the guy that wants to do the right thing. But he was older than you and bigger than you. You're a big guy. But he was a big guy too. And you try to do the right thing. And I think now you want to do the right thing too. I mean, because you can still help these women by talking to them. That's the best way you can do that. That's what we're asking. Let me ask you a question. And that's a great point that Anna brought up. And that's exactly how we filled the girl in Florida that he said he bit him. What do you think he did to that girl? Who said she was murdered? I think it was a detective. What do you think he did to her? I think he murdered her. You think he murdered her? Yeah. Okay. That's because you really get aggressive when you drink it. Okay. And you got a drunk and he was very aggressive. And listen. You seem like you're very respectful woman and what's right. You know, or really you felt like you wanted to protect her. I can tell you right now that we know of this man. Okay. Has murdered a lot of ladies. A lot of ladies that can't speak for themselves. Okay. And we want to make sure that he never does that again. But we need your help. We need you to tell us what you know about this man and things that he may have told you. What things that he made you do. He really is. You know, there's something he really want to let me do. He's a driver. And let me go. I'm nuts. He's where you win. You win by helping us. You win. I wanted him to. I mean, because I mean, he moves mostly. He's been out a couple of times. He's been out by himself. You know, we'll look at him as gone. Something small that you might remember. Something you saw later. I mean, you know he's got you told us before. You think he murdered the girl Florida. Because he's very violent. And you said women. You didn't just say really you said women. So tell us about that. I mean, we used to be in the clubs or something. The way he talked on the way he tried to treat them. You know, like on one occasion, he threw alcohol in the lady's face. In a bar. Yeah. And it was it always because they wouldn't go with him. Yeah. And it was one lady. Say he knows that he. He was a rapist or something. He mentioned. Who mentioned that? Some lady in the club in Florida. She said, you're a rapist. You know, I kept running. I was she saying that. What did he say when she called him a rapist? He said, she crazy. He said, I don't know what she's talking about. Do you think he was a rapist? You do think he was a rapist? Yes. What do you base that on? Why do you think that? The way he been he drank. And how he come on the women. And the way he tried to know. I had to get him one night. I got here. I grabbed the lady. I don't have to go to the tour. I said, man, don't be like that. You don't know her. Okay. You don't know what happened then? The lady. You tried to talk to the lady. She went to talk to him. She tried to walk away from. He grabbed her arm and tried to pull her. But it's happening. Don't do that. You shouldn't do that. Let her go. I mean, she don't want to talk to you. Let her go. Don't do that. Was this in a club? Yeah. He'd make you go out and get him, right? No. You can tell us. Oh, you know, trust me to do that. Because he, like he said, he thought I would tell her. Hey, Danny, what would you say if we told you that that's what he told us? I'll say he a lot. I would say him in the face of your life. Because he said, like I said, he's in custody. He can never say, he can never say out. Supposed stuff like that. How's that going? Okay, but listen, you know the type of guy he is. And he's in custody in LA. We've talked to him in LA. And he's told us some stuff. You know, and so it's another thing. We need your help. But you also need to help yourself to make sure that he doesn't put something on you. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? So if he did that, I'd probably say I would go to California. And I would testify that I never knew what he was doing. But he, you know, never know about that. You know, I'll say he allowed you. If you say I did anything like that, I don't believe in that. I'm going to tell me better than that. Okay. But we know that he used you to drive or really around, right? And he used you to boost stuff, right? He tried too. Okay. He's not a very attractive man, in my opinion. He's not a very. And I don't think he's got a way with the ladies. He's not a person in any way because you don't treat people like that. Okay. So, I mean, he needs somebody like you to at least get the girls talking. No. I wouldn't do it. And I'm not saying that you ever hurt these girls? Believe it or trust me. I'm not saying you ever hurt these girls. You can't, you can't give me the talk from the way I claim it because I don't do that. I don't believe in that. You listen about it. You listen about it. You should have to go get nobody else. So, it wouldn't be in the question. But you don't believe it. Do you believe in boosting stuff? No, I don't. But he's made you help with that. I mean. The point. The point is that he made you do things that were beyond your character that were against your character. Because he's a scary man. And you were only 17. And he's 40, 50 years old. And he's violent. And you didn't have any money. And you're away from home. You have no family. That's what we're trying to tell you. He makes you do things that you normally wouldn't do. We understand that. We just want to know what those things were. You didn't have to drive around. I thought you didn't have to drive around from the store to store. Did you make you drive around looking for one? No. Do you ever go to the marriage when you knew the women were? No. I didn't know none of that. When you said it. Because I don't really know what they go through. Because I got a sister. Okay? Yeah. My twin sister. Right. She's out there like that. So she. She. My sister's been with her for five times. Do well of course. So, you know, I know what they go through. I know you do. I will. We want to see what I can do today. But you were 17. Yeah. I'm sure you won't do it because my sister won't do it now. But you were 17 at the time. You were just as much a victim as these girls in a different way. Okay, we're going to jump forward a little bit here. The investigators start to use some of Danny Beckless's own words to get them to open up. He expressed the sympathy for the women who were Sam Lille's victims because he had a sister. The detectives skillfully used that sympathy to get them to finally reveal what he knows about Sam Lille. It starts when Detective Versace shows him a photo of Melinda LaPrie, the woman whose body was found in the cemetery in Pasagula in 1982. What do you think when you said that for a corrector? It's just 22 years old there. We're up and forth. It's not a kill. I need your help. I need your help to put them to rest to help that family that is still out there grieving and to help us put them away. That's what I need you to do. And I know you can do it. You have sisters, yeah? You have family members. You can tell me everything about that he did and everything that he told you or everything that he asked you to do. You can help us with that. And put him to rest. Her brothers still call Detective all the time hoping for some closure about their sister. The car amending. That's who she is. She's a real person. She played the flute. She played a guitar. She was very smart. She found herself in a bad situation like someone would do. This is what can make you feel good as you help. Are you okay? That's what we look at you as a victim. We know that. And this is a time for you to take your life by. I'll tell you what I knew. I don't know. Honestly, that's all I know. That's all I know. You know more. I just think you just having trouble with it. You can understand. If it's been burdened me for 30 years, I probably have trouble with it too. I mean, you're human. You're like us. I understand that. I understand this time. Some people need to take their life back and this is your time. And you can do it. There's no doubt about this. You can do it. Now I got a confidence in you. I think everybody hears that confidence in you. We know what you're like now. You're 100% opposite of this man. Completely. You couldn't do what you needed to do then, but you can do the right thing now. And you can help us bring justice to a lot of these families that have been waiting for 30 years. Yeah, who's longer? And make sure that he never does it again. Take your life back. And hold your head over proud and know that you didn't the right time. And you put a bad, bad guy. You traveled with this guy for three years. You know a lot more about him. Sure. You know the kind of man this was. You're not a killer, but you're a new one. It's time to just let it go. I wish you killed. You tell us what you think. I think you know how she was killed because I think you know what kind of man this was. Did he ever talk to you about sex? Did he ever talk to you of school you or tell you to talk about sex with women? What got him off? What didn't? He treated him when he treated him when they liked it. Did you tell you what he liked? What got him off? You say the way he treated him, they liked it. The way he treated him, did he like it? What's that? Yeah. What did he like? What would he tell you? Just be honest, Danny. It's okay. It's okay. You're going to it's okay. You're in a safe environment. You're going to go home tonight. You're going to know that the world is safe in place. You see he's like choking. He told you that? Danny, you're doing really good. You are. And you just need to keep hanging in there because you're doing the right thing and you're doing really good. What else did you tell you about? Do you like to do? Just like you say, he's like choking on me. I really have to say it with him. He's slapping him. Beating him around a little bit. He said they liked it too. Did he ever tell you it went too far? Yeah, exactly. Did you say he didn't have sex with him? Did he have sex with him? He liked choking on me. When he did have sex with Paul. This was every year sticks. And I wanted to do it every town, every city, every county, every study. This is over and over and over again. How many victims do you think he's got? I attribute it to him. Just give me a while, yes. Okay. Maybe think you like a serial killer. Do you think he's like a serial killer? This way he's turning out to be. Did you think that before or after he talked to us? You know, the other day I was just sitting there. Because, you know, he talked to him on that. And I was running on like, he still liked it. I was saying, because when the world kind of know how many people he really did that to. When you were with him back then, when you were 17, did you think he killed people? Room of time. You know, at the time he heard a lot of people. You know, he heard a lot of people. I felt that he did. Did you know whether they died or not? No, you know, you know, a few in the bathroom every after a while. Yeah, after you get to know him and you see their patterns and things they say off the cuff to you. Like, I like to choke women and stuff like that. And that's what, that's kind of what we're trying to get from you is the things he said to you. And things like why you gain that understanding of him of how you felt about him. I mean, for this guy to pop up in your mind just a couple of weeks ago and you to go, "Oh, good. I think he's still locked up. That's got to be a scary guy." 30 years. Why don't you keep your clothes? Why don't you keep their clothes? I don't know. What do we all do when we're close? Oh, we do when we're close. She was close and she was set in close to people she lived. She would go to places that she knew and go to houses and set up to people that she knew at the houses. Do you ever get a car find just a pair of bridges and shirt and bra and panties, whatever they come from? You've had some pins that show you some couple of times. Do I have them? Yeah, I have them. And she would like get up to, you had it squared the car out. She would find clothes. He would say, "Here's your hair. He don't know where he came from." How many times I'd have them? A lot. And he would say, "He put them in there." What about Jordan? You find your rings and stuff like that. What other kind of things? You may be particular bracelets or necklaces or brains or anything like that. The stick out? No, I mean, she would go in the car and she would train and I would pick them up and keep them up and take them in at the hair. And that's where they come from. Every time that happens, you think? How many times a lot? Right, you. Hello. You know, he says, "You found your rings and stuff like six times a week." Like, six days, you found your rings. You found stuff all the time, like six, no. And then she would be in that car. The floodgates were open and Detective Roberts had her insider. He was an important witness to us because he gave us an understanding into what Sam's really daily life was. He took us sort of on the day-to-day journey. And it's really sort of how we pieced together what they were doing during the day. And how Sam was making his money, how he was getting his money to be able to afford to go out, to buy these cars, to standing hotels. And he gave us really good insight into Sam's relationship with Orelia, which we didn't have a lot of information on that. So he was extremely helpful in just helping us figure out who Sam was. I asked Roberts when she came to view Beckless as a victim of Sam Little as opposed to a possible accomplice. Really, within the first, probably 15 minutes of talking to him. And I don't mean this in any derogatory way, but he was really kind of simple and not sophisticated. I ended up really kind of feeling sorry for him and his situation. And although he lied to us through the better half of the first part of the interview, I really think that he was really scared of Sam Little. And that fear sort of led that first hour of the interview for him to sort of deny and deny and deny and then finally come clean. So I just just just hold the meaner and talk into him. I thought I just don't think this guy is capable of that type of behavior, that type of evil. And I did think that, you know, Sam used him to do some of his dirty work and used him and took him to the bars and stuff. I didn't think that he was like 100% innocent in that way, but I don't really know that Danny really understood. The extent of his participation in it or what Sam was using him for. A Michael Connolly and you have been listening to Murderbook. We will finish Detective Roberts Road Trip next week in San Diego, where we will learn how an opportunity to put Sam Little away for many, many years, somehow slip by the chest system and the killings of women continued. I want to thank our listeners, our sponsors, and our consultants. Murderbook is produced and edited by Terri Lee Langford. Music is provided by Grace Kelly, including our theme song by The Grave. Post-production services are provided by Authentic, and Emma Cacucci is post-production supervisor. Jane Davis is in charge of our social media, and if you want to see photos and other material from the case, go to MurderbookPodcast.com. Remember, subscribe to the [email protected]/murderbook if you want to be alerted to new episodes and other announcements. And if you have a friend who likes true crime podcasts, make sure you tell them about this one. Finally, leave us a rating and a review at Apple Podcast. This is Michael Connolly saying thanks for listening. [Music]