The Downfall of Ellen DeGeneres

[Music] Hello everyone and welcome to the Goodmores Gone Bad Podcast. My name is Stuart Tysher. I am trying something different with this episode and I really need you to reach out and tell me if you think it was a good choice after you listen to it. I thought it might be interesting to mix in some stories about non-lawyers who are either engaged in scandals or corruption. I don't know why, I just thought it might be interesting stories to evaluate every once in a while. Today's episode is going to be about the scandal that enveloped Ellen DeGeneres and it's got nothing to do with any kind of lawyer. So after listening to it, do me a favor, go to the website for the Goodmores Gone Bad Podcast. Go to the contact us section and send me a message. And tell me, hey you know what, I liked that episode. I think it's good if we every once in a while cover some non-lawyer scandal or non-lawyer corruption or maybe you can just tell me that it didn't work. It wasn't on brand or it wasn't a story that you're interested in hearing. You'd much rather hear about lawyers. That's cool too. I'd like to know what you think because I really just want to deliver content that you enjoy. Anyway, today's program is about the fall of Ellen DeGeneres. So enjoy the episode. [Music] If you've ever heard me give a CLE program that you're probably not going to be shocked by this statement. Ready? In the early 1980s and 90s, I was really into stand-up comedy. There used to be this recurring special on TV where they broadcast a showcase of comedians from Danger Fields Comedy Club and I never missed it. It seemed like almost every comedian who appeared on that show eventually became a star. My favorite was Stephen Wright. I loved his deadpan delivery and I thought his one-liners were really intelligent. I was a little bit more careful at least quirky. Chariarsity killed the cat but for a while I was a suspect. I was a Rita Rudner kind of guy. I thought her sarcasm was biting and smart. Sales women always hold up dresses that are so ugly and they always say the same thing too. This looks much better on. On what? On fire? And there's one other popular comedian at the time who actually has something to do with my marriage. I don't know what this says about us but my wife and I our first date ever was to go see Eddie Murphy in concert. I feel like that's a very jersey first date, don't you? I didn't enjoy all comedians. George Carlin was big but I didn't really like him. I felt like he was a political pundit cosplaying as a comedian. It's good for you if you like it but it was too heavy for me. One other comedian that I didn't care for was Ellen DeGeneres. I found her to be too much of a nebish. You know what a nebish is? It's a Yiddish word and it means a timid sort of unfortunately pitiful person, you know? I think the best way to describe what a nebish is is if you hear a Jew look at someone and say, "Ah, what a nebish." It is the exact same thing as a southerner looking at that person and saying, "Oh bless your heart." You get it now, right? I always thought that Ellen DeGeneres' comedy was nebish like. No, I think you got to take care of yourself. I really do. I think I'm that way because I almost became a professional tennis player. That's what I was going to be but, wow, I wasn't good enough. But, well, I played one. She can't judge really but that's pretty good. I was just hitting against a wall. I was just not a wall but I had a racket in a ball and I was just bouncing it. Just not a racket but I had a ball and I was just tossing just a baseball but I was pretty good, you know. I was going to play. She was talented. She just wasn't for me. But the comedy gods didn't agree with me and in the 1980s Ellen DeGeneres got big. And she became a trailblazer. Ellen attended one semester at the University of New Orleans in her native Louisiana. But instead of continuing to pursue her major in communications, she dropped out and decided to try to make a living as a comedian. It wasn't easy. She supported herself during those lean times by taking jobs as a house painter, a vacuum salesperson, and even an oyster shucker. She was persistent though and she eventually got the gig as a full-time MC at a local comedy club. From there, she moved up to national touring and eventually got her big break in 1986 when she earned a spot on the Tonight Show with Johnny Carson. After her set, Ellen got the greatest gift a comedian could get. Johnny invited her to have a seat on the couch and told her there was an open invitation for her to return anytime. From there, her stand-up career took off. As her stand-up career progressed, Ellen tried to make a transition that pretty much every stand-up tries to make. She wanted to move into television. She got a few gigs on different shows and none of them really panned out. But then she landed a leading role in a sitcom called "These Friends of Mine." The only problem was that it debuted in 1994, the same year as another sitcom with a similar name. And when the TV show Friends became an instant hit, the creators of DeGeneres' show needed to make a change. So to avoid the confusion, Ellen's show was renamed simply Ellen. In that sitcom, she played a character that seems to be very close to her own personality, a neurotic yet delightful bookstore owner whose name was Ellen Morgan. The show ran for five seasons, but it might be best known for one single episode. To understand the impact that that episode had, you need to get a little bit of a history lesson. In 2004, during his race for Senate in Illinois, candidate Barack Obama said something that most people today would be shocked by. In a sit-down he had on C-SPAN while on the campaign trail, Obama told the interviewer, "What I believe is that marriage is between a man and a woman." Now what you need to know is that this wasn't a slip of the tongue, it wasn't a gaff, it was his position. This was 2004. Six years later in 2010, his spokesperson told CBS News that then President Obama's position had not changed. His spokesperson said that President Obama opposed same-sex marriage. In fact, Barack Obama did not come out in support of gay marriage until 2012. Such was the state of the country at the time, that the President who would eventually go down is one of the more liberal occupants of the Oval Office, would be publicly opposed to gay marriage as late as 2012. And when you think about the fact that 2012 was, well, sort of recent, that's what makes Ellen deGeneres such a trailblazer. 15 years earlier, 15 years before that, on April 20, 1997, Ellen deGeneres would take a major step for gay rights. It was the fourth season of her TV show and up until that point, lead characters on TV could not be openly gay. But Ellen was about to change that. In the episode entitled The Puppy Episode, Ellen's character was in a crowded retail store. She was having a conversation with another character played by Laura Dern. Ellen was fumbling with her words trying to get something important out, but she couldn't seem to do it. She was walking around the room in circles. She was struggling. You could hear it in her voice and you could see it in her movements. She was uncomfortable trying to to muster up some courage. Eventually, Ellen's character leaned on the counter of the store. And when she started to speak, she didn't realize that there was a microphone right there on the counter. This is so hard, but I think I've realized that I am. I can't even say the word. Why can't I say the word? I mean, why can't I just say. I mean, what is wrong? Why do I have to be so ashamed? I mean, why can't I just say the truth? I mean, be who I am. I'm 35 years old. I'm so afraid to tell people. I mean, I just. Susan, I'm gay. 42 million viewers watched Ellen's character and basically Ellen herself come out of the closet. It was the first time a lead character on a Primetime Television series came out as gay. It was groundbreaking and it made huge waves. She was put on the cover of Time Magazine and that was back in the day when paper magazines were a thing. And Time Magazine was a big thing. Unfortunately for Ellen, however, those waves took her under. Advertisers weren't too happy with the sort of attention the show created. Some viewers were conflicted as well, and the following year, the ratings on her show tanked and the show was canceled. But Hollywood is called "Holly Weird" for a reason, because it's a weird place. It's a place where people have short memories and where ideas evolve and things change. Sometimes all you need to do is just stick around and keep your nose and things, and before you know it, moods will shift and gatekeepers will change and opportunities will present themselves. And that seems to be what happened for Ellen. She just sorta stuck around found a way to keep working, and eventually things happened for her. Ellen went public with her relationships with women. The fact that she was gay just sort of stopped being controversial. Maybe it's because she was finally just living her authentic life. She was pushing forward in her personal life, and she was pushing forward in her professional life. She was just kind of keeping herself out there workwise. She tried her hand at another sitcom, but it didn't work out. She hosted the Emmy Awards as part of a team of hosts, and then went back and did it solo. Then she tried her hand at doing some voiceovers, and that definitely did work out. Ellen was the voice of the fish Dory in the movie Finding Nemo. Finding Nemo premiered in May of 2003 and became a massive hit. The film was de-generalist's first professional triumph in years, and it made her professional stock rise immensely. Her comeback was now in full swing. She got an HBO stand-up special, and she published a best-selling book of comedic essays. But while those were both exciting opportunities, it was another project that would truly cement her return to entertainment. And it would make her an A-lister in the process. Ellen appeared as a guest on Rosie O'Donnell's talk show, and as a guest, she really shined. Those who saw that appearance realized that something just clicked. What they soon realized is that all of the successes and failures in Ellen's career, combined to create a unique persona that simply worked in the talk show format. She got her own show, and she was off to the races. The show would be called, of course, Ellen, and it was so good that in its first season, the show won the daytime Emmy for outstanding talk show. Ellen's professional life was on the ascent. The show would win more Emmys, and she'd get all kinds of other opportunities. She did a cover-girl campaign. She was a host on American Idol, and she hosted the Oscars. In fact, at that event, she took a picture with some fellow celebrities, and it became the most retweeted photo of all time. Ellen's personal life was moving in the right direction, too. She was awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom, and she would start dating her future wife, actress Portia D'Rossi. The pinnacle of Ellen's success came in early 2020. Her show won over a dozen Emmys at that point, and in January of that year, fellow comedian Kate McKinnon handed her the esteemed Carol Burnett Award at the 77th Golden Globe Awards for her contribution to TV comedy and funniness in general. So here's the question. What got her there? Why did her talk show blow up? What made her the Hollywood darling on such an extraordinary level? The answer is, it was her brand. It was her brand, and her brand seemed to be just an extension of her personality. She was just nice. She was a nice person in a notoriously, not nice industry. Ellen's mantra was "be kind." It was something that she lived in her life, and it was something that she wanted to live in her TV show as well. She once said that she wanted the show to be a place of happiness where no one would ever raise their voice, and everyone would be treated with respect. And that idea was carried through into the content of her show as well. She would hold cute babies, she would celebrate the lives of super fans who died of cancer, she'd get celebrities to surprise their biggest fans. The brand was about inclusion and support and positivity and, well, kindness. It was the very foundation of everything Ellen stood for. It was the fundamental underpinning of the show, and it was an outward manifestation of what Ellen had believed in and had become. It was the result of her struggles personally, her setbacks, her triumphs, and all of her fans bought into the idea. Ellen's climb to the top of Mount Hollywood wasn't without its stumbles. Two, in particular, made her lose footing just a bit. Both of them happened to have occurred in 2019. The first was with someone well-known. The second was with someone not so well-known. Ellen got into a little tiff with actor Dakota Johnson on her show. Ellen was being a little snarky and accused Dakota of not inviting Ellen to a birthday party. The snap back with some snark telling Ellen that she was, in fact, invited, but Ellen chose not to come. A little profanity was even dropped in in the process. Ellen was visibly shocked and she came off looking bad, to say the least. The Twitter sphere gave Ellen a bit of a hard time and put a little dent in her brand as a result, but it was just a little dent and the dust sort of settled kind of quick. The other issue, however, was with someone who was very different from a-lister Dakota Johnson. In fact, Ellen probably didn't even know that this guy was upset with her altogether. Kevin T. Porter is a nobody. He's a podcaster and I guess he's somehow involved in the entertainment industry. I think he has a few acting credits and some other stuff, but by Hollywood standards, he's a nobody. Now, I know that's not a nice thing to say and I don't mean that as a human being he is somehow less than. But let's face it, by Hollywood standards, most of us, myself included, are no buddies. In Tinseltown, there's a difference between Kevin Hart and Kevin Porter. The first guy is known by everybody. The second guy is not. Well, that's not true. He actually did make a splash in Hollywood, but it wasn't for his work. It was for his anger at Ellen DeGeneres. In 2019, Ellen made a social faux pas. The owner of the Dallas Cowboys invited Ellen and her wife to attend a Cowboys game and sit in the owner's box. Ellen knew that she was going to be in the presence of some people who did not share her political views, but Ellen went anyway. That day, she posted a video of her and the person who was sitting next to her, former Republican president George W. Bush. In addition to her video, someone took a photo of her smiling sitting next to Bush and posted it online. The internet took her to task. Ellen, however, wasn't giving in. When people gave her crap about it on Twitter, she defended herself. She said, quote, "Here's the thing. I'm friends with George Bush. In fact, I'm friends with a lot of people who don't share the same beliefs that I have." She said, "Just because I don't agree with someone on everything doesn't mean that I'm not going to be friends with them." Well that was not acceptable to some people. One of those people was Kevin T. Porter. Porter was so upset about it that he wrote an essay and published it on the writing website The Medium. The editorial was called The Cheap Kindness of Ellen. He wrote, quote, "Why would the queen of daytime television and queer icon Ellen DeGeneres share anything more than a begrudging handshake with former Republican president George W. Bush?" He then went on to accuse Bush of hindering LGBTQ rights advocacy and committing war crimes in the Iraq war. A lot of people besides Kevin T. Porter were upset with Ellen. Other celebrities also said that they were disappointed. But much like the Dakota Johnson thing, the Twitter sphere barked a little and then things died down. As for the Medium article, I don't even know if Ellen ever saw it. I doubt that many people saw it all together. In February of 2020, COVID hit. When the coronavirus hit, the world closed down. But if you remember, in the beginning, we were all told that this was just going to be for a few weeks. Of course, our work eventually moved online. But in the beginning, no one knew that would happen. I think we pretty much all thought we were going to have two or three weeks of vacation. And then we'd be back at things. As the reality of the lockdowns sunk in, everyone retreated to the same place. Our phones and our screens. There was nothing else to do. Work was closed, the stores were closed, the gyms were closed, and going outside was even considered a scary situation, lest you make contact with another human being. People were simply glued to their phones, and that meant one thing. Posts that might be popular in 2019 had the potential of being super viral in 2020. I mean, the whole world had nothing to do but stare at our phones and retweet things. And that is when Kevin T. Porter struck again. In March of 2020, Kevin T. Porter was apparently still upset with Ellen DeGeneres. He decided to follow up his medium article with a tweet. He posted, quote, "Right now we all need a little kindness." You know, like Ellen DeGeneres always talks about, she's also notoriously one of the meanest people alive. Respond to this with the most insane stories you've heard about Ellen being mean, and I'll match everyone with a $2 donation to the LA Food Bank. The tweet went viral. Twitter became flooded with stories about how mean Ellen had been over the years. There were over 2600 replies containing tales from people who ran into her in the street, stories from people who said they were her neighbors, even people who used to work on the show. And there was no way to know whether these stories were true or made up. But the one thing that was clear was that the tweet was taking on a life of its own. And as people continued to pile on, Ellen's brand was quickly being tarnished. Ellen, it seems, misread the reality of this tweet. She probably thought that the thing would pass over just like the Dakota Johnson thing passed over the previous year. But these days were different. This time, the whole world was in lockdown, which meant that everyone's focus was on Twitter. Things that might pass over a year ago had staying power in 2020. Ellen, however, kept pushing forward. Cheatsheet.com explained, Ellen built a studio in her home so she could continue producing her show safely and crew members anxiously awaited news of how their positions would be impacted. When she took to the show to express concern for her crew, all seemed well. She said, "I love them, I miss them, and the best thing I can do to support them is to keep the show on the air." Cheatsheet.com continued, they said, "In reality, only four original crew members were brought in to continue the work. In place of the rest, degenerous began using a non-union technical crew." And I think that might have been one of the more important things that Cheatsheet.com mentioned in that quote. That stripped down crew seems to have left an opening for disaster. It seems that with less of a crew, there was less oversight on what was said, what was filmed, and what was broadcast. Celebrities across the board at that time were making statements that were unfiltered. They didn't go through the same writing and vetting process that they normally would. Those checks and balances that occurred with entire staffs who determined what should be said and what shouldn't be said. None of that was happening at the time. And because of that, Ellen put her foot in her mouth. When Ellen's show returned, she hosted the "at-home" edition of the show with her wife, Portia D'Rossi, serving as camera operator and director. She even joked that their dog, Oggi, was the key grip. She posted content from her home, and in one video recorded by Portia, Ellen said, "One thing I've learned from being in quarantine is that people, this is like being in jail is what it is." She said, "That's mostly because I've been wearing the same clothes for 10 days, and everyone here is gay." The joke did not go over well. People noticed that she was making that statement from a multi-million dollar home with incredible scenery from her backyard in the background and her beautiful spouse at her side. She claims that her life is like being in jail? Really? The website, nikkiswift.com reported, quote, "The comments came across as tone deaf when so many didn't have the resources the famous comedian had to deal with the situation." What's more, inmates and actual prisons were struggling to get care as COVID-19 spread through correctional institutions at the time. Ellen tried to weather the storm, but the winds and the rains just kept battering her. People were coming out of the woodwork with all kinds of different stories. A producer who worked on the show for about a year in the early days of 2003 said that everyone on the set knew that there was a bad work environment there. Entertainment Weekly reported about a black employee who described racist microaggressions that resulted in her walking off the job. Everybody who was talking about Ellen painted a picture of a behind-the-scenes culture that clashed with her "be kind mantra." The conversation was constant. As soon as it seemed as if it was dying down, someone else would pop up like a bodyguard who worked for de-genre as came forward with his own account of being treated coldly. Ellen was feeling frustrated and hurt. Someone close to her said, "Ellen is at the end of her rope." She thought this was just all sour grapes from a few haters, but it's not a passing thing. The hits just keep coming. Now there are two parts of that quote that I think seem pretty relevant. The first part is the sour grapes thing. Because when you look at the initial complaints, they all just seem like someone whining about a mean boss. And let's face it, we've all had mean bosses. And isn't that pretty much the standard in Hollywood? I mean, the sorts of things that most people were complaining about seem like the run-of-the-mill crappy behavior by your average celebrity. But the other part of that quote is also telling. Apparently, Ellen felt as if the complaints just didn't let up. The hits keep coming, they said. In that regard, they didn't know how right they really were. And that's because while Ellen was floundering in her home studio, the news outlets were investigating in the background. And things got messy for Ellen when BuzzFeed published a damning article on July 16, 2020. The article by journalist Christy Lee Yandoli said in part, "Ellen to Generous has built her worldwide multi-million dollar brand on the motto, 'Be kind with lavish giveaways and acts of charity.' But behind the scenes, current and former employees on her leading daytime show say they faced racism, fear, and intimidation. Most of the former employees blamed executive producers and other senior managers for the day-to-day toxicity. But one former employee said that ultimately it's Ellen's name on the show, and she really needs to take more responsibility for the workplace environment." She said, "They definitely don't practice what they preach with the 'Be kind' mantra." BuzzFeed continued, "There have been rumors for years about the generous being difficult and how many employees feel unhappy." I think it's a lot of smoke and mirrors when it comes to the show's brand, a former employee said. The employees who spoke to BuzzFeed news said that they worked in a culture dominated by fear. One of them said a general feeling among staffers was, "If you have an issue, don't even think about bringing it up." After that article came out, things started to move very quickly. Ellen's people must have been huddled in a situation room, most likely a virtual situation room given that everyone was on lockdown. But they had to be an intense conversation because at this point there were statements being followed by responses, responses being followed by news reports, news reports being followed by tweets. Ellen's "Be kind" brand was not just in jeopardy of being tarnished. People were starting to consider whether it was a sham completely. One gossip columnist reported that a former staff resumed the situation up bluntly. They described Ellen's "Be kind" mantra as "Bullshit" that only happens when the cameras are on. Ellen's team realized it was a dangerous time for the star and that they needed a considered response. So Ellen released an apology video. The public tore Ellen apart. They considered her apology to be wishy-washy at best if you go to YouTube and you search for Ellen apology video, what you're going to find are a crap ton of videos making fun of that apology. What was interesting though about the underlying issues was that Ellen wasn't accused of misconduct herself. She was accused of being mean and nasty for sure and we all know that nastiness and the job could rise to a workplace violation. But it seems that the allegations were really about her staff and the people that she delegated to. In a further attempt at damage control, Ellen seemed to take responsibility when she addressed the issue to her staff. But she did it in a rather impersonal way. She wrote a memo. In an internal memo to her staff, she explained, "As we've grown exponentially, I've not been able to stay on top of everything and I relied on others to do their jobs as they knew I'd want them done." She wrote, "Clearly some didn't. That will now change and I'm committed to ensuring that this does not happen again." When you read the articles and the analysis of all of this, it seems like there are a few particular individuals on Ellen's teams who were the source of the problems. They too were in damage control mode." Entertainment Weekly reported that quote, "executive producers released a joint statement to Buzzfeed taking full responsibility for the show's daily operations." They said, "For the record, the day-to-day responsibility of the Ellen show is completely on us." The statement said in part, "We take all of this very seriously and we realize as many in the world are learning that we need to do better, are committed to doing better and we will do better." The studio seemed to believe that Ellen's people were the issue as well. Warner Bros. conducted an investigation and found what they called some "deficiencies" related to the show's day-to-day management. They committed to improving the workplace. But while Ellen, her staff and the studio were all engaging in crisis management, journalist Christy Lee Andoli was diving further into her investigation. And two weeks after her initial article, Buzzfeed published another expose by Andoli that was more devastating than the first. It began like this. Being asked to join the control room inside the Ellen DeGeneres show is a coveted spot in Hollywood, but according to dozens of men and women who work behind the scenes, the office is a place where sexual harassment and misconduct by top executives runs rampant. One ex-employee said the head writer and executive producer asked him if he could give him a hand job or perform oral sex in a bathroom at a company party in 2013. Another said that that they saw him grab a production assistance penis. In May of 2017, another former employee also said that he saw the executive producer grow a production assistant in a car and kiss his neck. Nearly a dozen former employees who range from longtime senior level employees to production assistance said it was also common for that executive producer to make sexually explicit comments in the office like pointing out male colleagues bulges in their crutches or ask them questions like, "Are you a top or a bottom?" A former employee said, "It's masked in sarcasm, but it's not sarcasm." Many of his targets employees added were lower level and younger employees who felt that they lacked any power to speak up. This was a very different story than the stuff in the tweets that had come before it. It was far more serious than the complaints in that first Buzzfeed article. I mean, things like groping could be assault. This kind of thing could be crimes. When the nature of the complaints shifted from mean and insensitive to harassing and possibly criminal, the situation went from being an embarrassment to a scandal. In August, Ellen apologized to her staff again this time via Zoom. She explained that her three executive producers would be leaving. Were they fired? No, it seems that they were, quote, "parting ways" with the show. During the call, she spoke about being introverted and having good days and bad days, which caused her to keep to herself at times. And to try to make things better, she was introducing new perks for the staff, including paid time off and a generous medical leave policy. While Ellen was trying to contain things within her organization, the debate about her was playing out in the media and the public. Former employees piled on. On August 5th, 2020, Ellen's on air DJ who was with her for 11 years, released a statement, quote, "I did experience and feel the toxicity of the environment." But Ellen had some high-powered friends who would try to come to the rescue. Katie Perry, Diane Keaton, Alec Baldwin, and Ashton Kutcher all came out and supportive their friend. Fellow comedian and talk show host Jay Leno said, "The Ellen I Know raised over $125 million for charity "and has always been a kind, decent person." But those shows of support seem to do more harm than good. Of course, important celebrities are gonna come to our defense. She's gonna be nice to them. The public, however, didn't seem to buy it. That same month, one entertainment outlet said, quote, "Ellen DeGeneres might be the most hated woman "in Hollywood right now." A month later, when the next season of her show premiered, Ellen once again tried to apologize. She explained, "I learned that things happen here "that never should have happened. "I take that very seriously, and I want to say "I am sorry to the people who were affected. "I know that I'm in a position of privilege and power, "and I realize that with that comes responsibility, "and I take responsibility for what happens at my show." She said, "Sometimes I get sad, I get mad, "I get anxious, I get frustrated, I get impatient, "and I'm working on all that. "I'm a work in progress. "I am especially working on the impatience thing, "and it's not going well because it's not happening fast enough. "I'll tell you that." But it was too little, too late. Sure, some people appreciated her honesty. Some people saw her statements as the remorseful words of a person who was trying to improve, but a whole lot of others didn't buy it. Over the next year, Ellen's show lost a million viewers. There was a 43% decline in viewership. It was clear that the damage to her brand was irreversible. And in May of 2022, the show went off the air. The speed of Ellen's downfall is mesmerizing. The question is, why? How was a brand that was established methodically over 20 years, taken down by what seems to be a single tweet and in basically about two months? Let's try and answer that. First, there was really bad behavior at the root. You shouldn't be a bully, you shouldn't be a racist, you shouldn't harass or discriminate or assault, all that stuff is wrong and bad and shouldn't be tolerated anywhere, including the workplace. But that stuff doesn't always bring down celebrities. How many people do we know that were monsters but found a way to weather the storm in Hollywood? Tons. Ellen tumbled because of the nature of her brand and her own personal nature. Ellen's brand was unique in that it guaranteed failure if anything at all went wrong. Think about it, her brand was about absolute kindness. Well, when you claim to be a saint, you need to be a saint and there's no wiggle room. Anything less than saintly behavior, anything less than purity, well, that's a complete betrayal of your brand. That's why bad guys have such staying power in the celebrity world. They act like assholes and they admit that they're assholes. So when they behave badly, people look at them and say, "What'd you expect?" They lived up or down to their expectations. But when you claim to be pure and morally superior, then anything less than perfection is going to take you down. It's not gonna seem like you made a mistake, it's going to seem like you were a sham. And what compounded that for Ellen is the disastrous way that she and her team handled it. And I think it went down that way because of her personal nature. People in her organization went rogue. That's what seems to have been alleged there. Other than being nasty, the really bad stuff seems to have been done by others within her organization. And I think the downfall of Ellen to generous is a master class on what not to do in a crisis management situation where people in your organization have gone rogue. I've seen now why there are media consultants who specialize in scandal management because it requires a unique touch. It requires a delicate balance of being contrite and apologetic, but also being on the offensive. It requires someone to take decisive, quick action to deal with the perpetrators of the bad conduct and it requires some difficult self-reflection. It requires a genuine dedication to change and healing and accepting responsibility. And to make it all work, you have to act decisively. No one's gonna believe that you're truly opposed to what happened if you don't show that you're truly opposed to what happened. The people who go rogue need to be terminated immediately. In Ellen's case, they did the exact opposite. The executive producers who were alleged who have created the problem left to show months after the first allegations were made. And they seemed to go on their own volition. The statement was that they were parting ways. Why? Was it because Ellen condoned their behavior? Of course not. I think the reason was that Ellen was uncomfortable being on the offensive. I think that her true personality was a lot like the character she played. It was a lot like the standup routine that I disliked in her early years. She was a bit of a nabish. She was a little insecure and a little unsure and a little neurotic. She's probably indecisive and maybe even loyal to a fault. Plus, she was also very caring and she took criticism personally and she was embarrassed and sad and remorseful and confused. And she was also a little detached. She had been insulated from the common folk for a long time. She breathed the rarified celebrity air and she most likely surrounded herself with a bunch of yes men. And you can't get through a major scandal that way. Ellen really only had two options and she didn't do either. If you're really all about being kind and you won't accept anything less than perfect kindness, then what you have to do is you say you screwed up, you accept responsibility and you quit. You end the show immediately. That's decisiveness. You say, I am kind, this was wrong and to be true to my kind self, I am ending what has become a toxic situation for people. The other alternative is that you go on the offensive and you try to stay. You don't let people who have done bad things resign. You fire them immediately and with authority. Then you tell the world, I am kind, this was wrong and I took decisive action to remove the unkindness. Of course, there's also a third potential reality. Maybe Ellen isn't kind. Maybe the kindness stick was indeed all a sham. Maybe she behaved the way she did because she was okay with what went on. Probably not the alleged assault and that sort of stuff, but the meanness. I mean, anything's possible, right? I gotta tell you, I don't know which it is. And you know why? When I started this analysis, I was convinced that Ellen was just a nebish who didn't know how to deal with the situation, but in the end, I'm not so sure. And that's because it didn't seem like Ellen actually learned anything. Last year, she launched a Netflix special called For Your Approval and all of the parts I saw from it make it seem as if she sees herself as the victim. She made a sarcastic joke and said, "I got kicked out of show business because I mean." Yeah, you can't be mean in show business. One of the former producers from Versho said that the essence of the special was just the lie. She felt that Ellen wasn't taking any responsibilities for her actions. Instead, she just spinning things to make herself look like the victim. In November of 2024, Ellen and her wife moved to England, and as if to make clear that she didn't learn anything, Ellen said this in a recent interview. She posted pictures of her massive estate in the exclusive area in the UK known as the Cotswolds. She said, "We love it here. Porsche flew her horses here, and I have chickens, and we had sheep for a couple of weeks." She said, "Everything here is just better. The way animals are treated, people are polite. I just love it here." She said this all after providing a rare glimpse into her $18 million retreat in the British countryside. Go look at the pictures. Looks like a rough life. But that was a little different, right? Not a good lawyer gone bad, but a little bit of a celebrity scandal story. Let me know if you want to hear more stories like that, or if I should just stick to the bad lawyers. I'm perfectly happy with doing either. I just thought maybe I'd throw in a little bit of variety. Go to the website, goodlawyersgonebad.com and the contact us section and please let me know what you think. It really does mean a lot. If you don't mind, go to your podcast platform of choice and rate us and leave a review. It really does help. Thanks so much everybody. I hope you enjoyed the program. I hope you enjoyed the rest of your day, and Haley, drive carefully.