The Dissolution of the Monasteries

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Mäichi in Life Life, ilsi videossa rien kanssa ruudunnistossa on tremendous разработtaa, kysTwagle sens classrooms ب торkat ja kuitenkin johan lapsiin on tullut. Tämä on tullut. often can't do without the wages or the labor of a child. - That's from this moment before, from a forum we were across the George. The education of women was, for that time, very well taken care of. We can go back to seven-centre of Hilda up in Whitby, but that was tradition went through. I mean, there was real learning, there was a study of Aristotle, there were learned people coming out, learned women able to find education there. - Yes, that's certainly true. And I really want to stress that non-arise were incredibly important as an outlet for women, as an alternative to marriage. Certainly right down through the gentry, it was possible for women to gain a really sophisticated education that was part of the mainstream of European intellectual culture in a convent. It's possible to exaggerate that, however, that wouldn't have been true of every convent in the country. And there were some small poor convent where the nuns were living lives that were very little different from the lives they would have lived if they'd stayed with their families. - Okay, George Bernard, can we talk about Thomas Cromwell, who became a central figure in the dissolution? What relation do you have to Henry VIII to start with? - Well, Thomas Cromwell was the man who'd acquired legal expertise and became a legal fixer for Cardinal Woolsey, particularly, and after Cardinal Woolsey's fall, he then moves and becomes mergers as Henry VIII's leading counsellor. Relevantly for us, after Henry VIII has broken with Rome, declared his well supremacy and got an act of parliament giving and powers to visit monasteries. Beginning of 1535, Thomas Cromwell has appointed his vice-gerant in spirituals. That's to say, the King's deputy with responsibility, particularly for monasteries. And this I see as partly as an assertion of authority of the King's authority, but also it's intended to reform to examine what's going on. And Cromwell masterminds, organises the valor, ecclesiasticalists, the great survey of monastic wealth that's carried out in 1535, '36 from Markable Administrative Achievement. And then when the dissolution, which we're going to go on to talk about, takes place. Cromwell is the organiser, the fixer, the enforcer. The correspondence is very largely to or from him. But a word of caution there, that Thomas Cromwell falls in 1540, just a month after the last monastery is dissolved. And his papers are confiscated, and they are now available in National Archives, our main source of information for what goes on in the 1530s. And there's a danger that that rich archive maybe exaggerates distorts our understanding of Cromwell's role. We talk about Thomas Cromwell's dissolution of monasteries. And I would very much want to put Henry VIII into that picture, too. It seems to me that you can explain a lot of what happens by the preferences and interests of Henry VIII. Not that I'd want to suggest that Henry is some kind of potent act on a whim. I think Cromwell and Henry VIII are part of reflect something wider, and referring to what Sir Dianne and Dermott have been saying. We have to, I think, distinguish between ideals, realities, and perceptions. And the ideals of the monastic life were very much, as you've just been describing. And to large extent, perhaps they were being realized. But in the early 16th century, there was a current among bishops, among churchmen, among scholars of whom Erasmus is perhaps the most striking, who were not so sure that monasteries were fulfilling the right functions. That they were perhaps not monks and not living up to the strict rules they were supposed to, living lives at hypocrisy, or that the ceremonies that Dianne was describing were, well, how useful really were they? And the relics were-- And the relics were-- were literally bones of contentious-- in danger of being seen as superstitious, of fostering idolatry rather than the proper worship of God. So what in your judgment as Henry VIII's part in this? Because you're right. I mean, at school, we taught this dreadful man, a Cromwell, and this passionate man, Henry VIII. And somehow Henry VIII sort of slightly got away with it, but he shouldn't have done, should he? Indeed not. Indeed not. I'm sorry, it's a bit 1066. That's not what I mean. Didn't really go into quite-- But Henry VIII was-- he had the view that he was prompting. He was alongside Cromwell. But as usual, in his Machiavellian way, he kept his hands clean. So if something fell, he would not fall-- or some personal fell, he would not fall with him. That's very much my view of Henry VIII, that he is a rather musk-gill politician than he's often given credit for. But what he's good is entrusting his leading ministers with the responsibility for policies which he's fully aware, maybe not in every detail, but essentially aware, and maintaining what used to be said in the late Reagan years is deniability, that he could deny that he'd had anything to do with. David answer a question that some listeners might be asking themselves, what was Henry VIII's decision to marry Ann Bolin and to break with the Pope in that sense? And make it a supreme rule. Was that the key lever for his subsequent next few years attack on the monasteries? Well, Henry VIII's decision to marry Ann Bolin is almost secondary to his desire to be are not married to Catherine of Erigan. And the problem, again, I'm afraid it's all God. It's always God with the 16th century. He really believed that he should not have married Catherine of Erigan. In fact, did not marry Catherine of Erigan. And the proof was that he hadn't got a son. Alongside that comes a love, absolutely passionate love for Ann Bolin. And that combination of believing that he's got to do God's will by getting rid of Catherine and wanting to marry Ann is the force which pushed him against the Pope clashed with Rome. And the only way through was to do God's will by breaking with the Pope. So I'm with George on the idea that Henry is a man with big ideas. And the first big idea is breaking with Rome. And then he's given the means by a clever minister, Thomas Cromwell. And I think that's also the pattern with the dissolution of monasteries. Big idea, Henry, practicalities Cromwell. But also perhaps more important, this is to add to what George says. Cromwell keeps him at it. Cromwell keeps him on course. Because one of the great things about Henry VIII is he keeps changing his mind. That was clear when Cromwell fell. And the '40s, the 1540s were a time of drift and changing minds all the time. So if you look at the dissolution, you've got to see that pattern. Henry, Cromwell side by side, and other actors as well, putting there three penny worth in. There is that-- George mentioned the valor ecclesiasticals, the stock taking that Cromwell did. Was that also-- was there propaganda in that? Was the idea that there's such things that were happening these dreadful corrupt monasteries, sexual license, goodness knows what was going on. We can't even talk about it, so terrible, but they have to be crushed because of that. That was another prong of the plan. The valor is separate from the campaign of propaganda, which was gathered by Cromwell's commissioners, different set of commissioners, to those taking the values. They look for scandal, as they should, because visitors like Bishops, who were visitors before, were always opposed to look for scandal. But the problem is here, what's the agenda? Is it to reform the monasteries, or is it to discredit them? And it's very difficult for us to be sure how to use their reports. We do know that at least one of them Richard Layton seems to have changed one of his reports to a more negative report than his first draft. And we don't know, but it's possible that that was prompted by the kind of response that the positive report got. That suggests that there's a degree of detraction. We don't actually have all the reports extant. We only have the surviving reports from the North and East and summary of the others. So it's a bit difficult to assess them. And the other problem that we have is that we do have surviving Bishops' reports from earlier eras that are equally scandal-ridden, actually. I mean, they're surviving reports of the 12th century with runaway nuns and priests and nuns bedding down very comfortably in dormitories together, in monks with children, and thawed a mythical monks praying on choir boys. And there's plenty of that from earlier eras. So I think it would be wrong to say, oh, the monasteries were particularly corrupt in the early 16th century, and that's why they were dissolved, which in earlier generation of perhaps rather wiggish historians were a bit prone to say. I think it would be right to say that the vistas did uncover real corruption, but it was probably business as usual. Come and move in, George Bernard, to the action as it were. In 1536 Henry was granted an active parliament to dissolve the smaller monastic houses, about 400 of them. But that autumn, 1536, there was this great rebellion in the north of England, a source of great rebellions in this country. And this one was called the Pildrimage of Grace. What they're rebelling about and how important was that in the scheme of things. Well, I do see the rebellion as very much a response to the dissolution of the monasteries, small monasteries. But if we might go back briefly to the context of the dissolution of smaller monasteries, I do see part of that concern about the condition of monasteries, a sense that perhaps the smaller monasteries in particular were not fulfilling what they should. Already several bishops in the 1515, 10, 1520s had dissolved a number of small monasteries using the revenues to found the college at Oxford or Cambridge or grammar school, Cardinal Walsy famously, often this is seen in terms of personal aggrandism. But I think it can be seen as a measure of a form as well. And it does seem to me this is the background to the dissolution of the smaller monasteries. And I would see that in 1536, not as a stepping stone to the first as it were, taste which leads to the death. dissolution of the Lord, but more or less sincere intended to reform, reforms which these surveys had been picking up. But the pilgrimage of Grace was pivotal, and I want to get to that because they came, they came, and as you say, against the closing of the monasteries, and 100 days we know started to write vitriolic letters about these terrible people from the monasteries coming trying to attack his authority as the emperor. He saw it as an attack, and we must also remember that a lot of these Amores monasteries owed allegiance to father and mother and father houses on the continent, and finally to the Pope to another power, because the Pope would become in his eyes another power. So he's got another power inside his country marching on London. It's not good, and it was very. I think that's crucial. I think the political dimension of this is very important. I mean, it shows the perceptions that clearly there are a very large number of people in England who don't share the kind of concerns about the state of the monasteries which we've just been talking about, and are prepared in the north of England to rise up against it. It does seem to me that the dissolution is central to that rebellion. When there is bargaining by the King's left hand-unce in early December, they're not strong enough to attempt to attack for them. The rebels militarily, there is a bargain. One of the conditions, one of the few specific conditions that the monasteries will stand until Parliament meets. Yeah, we tend to forget that the pilgrimage of Grace actually won. And the proof of that is that its leader, Robert Ask, was invited to court to spend Christmas of the King. That's an extraordinary thing. And Henry must have been humiliated by that. And of course he then tricked them out of their victory by not giving them the concessions he demanded and letting them rebel again at which point he could crush them. So we do have a Carlisle of a place. Yes, yes, yes. He's a key place. Absolutely. We have to be more important in English history than Carlisle. A few places. But then of course the action becomes much nastier. There are abbots who are hanged for treason. There are hundreds in the north hanged for being traitors to the King. That sense of fury and Henry, that his authority has been done. Did this only shoot down? Is this a turning point? I know we're going very fast over this territory. But was his reaction to the pilgrimage of Grace and the humiliation which made him have to ask Robert Ask the Yorkshire lawyer to his court for Christmas time? And this turn him and say these are my enemies. I think that's right. And what it does do is make him listen to those voices who are insidiously, insistently via Cromwell in particular saying, "Monestry is a no good. Monestry is a no good." And there are always two voices around Henry. There's the conservative voices talking about the tradition of the church and that must be upheld. And there are these much more radical voices listening to the Reformation and its message about monasteries. And all through the dissolution you have to hear that dialogue between two voices in Henry's mind. And also, as I think George said, one of you said, there's a feeling that these people are praying all the time when they should knock them, move out and teach and form grammar schools as Worsley was saying these. This is past. This has had it. This is relics. It's interse-irasmus is mocking the relics. The giant finger of St Peter and the blood of Christ and that sort of thing. But what happened after the pilgrimage of Grace and when you're in the church, when you move, they moved into the monasteries, the bigger monasteries there and didn't they? That's right. And you moved on to the against them, I mean. Yeah. And most Abbots and Abbas is actually negotiated with the government. It's disappointing if you're a traditionalist. But the vast majority of people complied. And you could see why they complied with it. And they're complying with it. Well, basically they tried to negotiate good deals for themselves and sometimes for the religious dependent on them, like a good pension or if they were ordained priesthood job as priest in the church where they'd previously been, for example, an abd or a monk. And we've got lots of correspondence surviving. The abdice of Godstow, for example, Neuroxford, all her letters survive diligently ringing an extra 50 quid or so a year out of the cromwellian administrators. Other people did sort of stand fast and determinedly say you're not dissolving me. And the result tended to be, as you've already heard, violence. If we take the abd of Glastonbury as perhaps the best or the nastiest example, he wouldn't comply with the dissolution at all. And they sort of dug themselves in rather like a guerrilla cell. But of course, trips were found to winkle the mountain. He ended up being hanged on Glastonbury tour and his quarters were nailed to the gate of the monastery. So he was treated as a traitor. And Glastonbury perhaps more than any other abd can claim to have been seriously blackwashed. People were determined to prove that there was something the matter with this man, that he'd stolen a domestic property, which he almost certainly hadn't. There've been all kinds of abuses when previous reports had been extremely favourable. And there is a very clear case to say. Sir, it was a bit of a show drive. So serious black propaganda. Yes, seriously, black propaganda. George Brunner. It's important for me, but the smaller monasteries were dissolved by active parliament. Passes the law and then commissioners are sent round to enforce that. The larger monasteries from the end of 1537, 3839 were not dissolved in that way. There was another act of parliament in 1539, but that simply confirmed the legality of what was being done. And the way this operated was that commissioners would go round and persuade abbots and monks to surrender their monasteries to the king. And they went round over two years doing that. And that's a hugely important point to make. And the great thing to draw out of it is that at no stage in the 1530s was monasticism officially condemned. The first act of 1536 said that monasteries are good things. We're getting rid of the smaller ones to strengthen the bigger ones. And that last act says, "Oh look, all the monasteries have gone." Now that's hugely important because it means that the Church of England, after the reformation, had never officially condemned the monastic life, which meant in the 19th century, you could revive it. And it's unique among Protestant reformations that that should be served. You made God central, quite rightly, right at the beginning of this program, don't you? Wasn't there a feeling? Or was there a feeling around the country that looked these places we've known all our lives, these places that have been here from time immemorial, have been, are being attacked and God isn't intervening. I think that, look at the prayers that are going up. Look at the battalions of prayers every more than twenty-four hours a day. And yet God is not listening. Exactly, the street cred of monasteries must have gone by the simple fact that they were dissolved. I think the other element is that it's very difficult for anyone to see the whole picture, to really believe that all monasteries could go. And it might be inappropriate, but I think, in a sense, a right comparison, to see the Holocaust in the same light. You cannot believe that such an event could take place. And only perhaps Henry and Cromwelln, the Duke of Norfolk, one or two people, really saw that all of these houses were going to go until they did. How did it happen, Dan? So I'm going to Cromwells, I should say, no, I'm going to Cromwells, I should say, so Cromwell sends us agents of the monasteries. They get there and they just, what are they saying, what do they do? With the smaller monasteries, what happened was that a bunch of people arrived on the doorstep on Monday morning and went into the chapter house, called all the monks together and said, right, that's it, you're dissolved. Go away, then, off you go. And then they basically stripped the monastery of any property that wasn't read, hortel, nail down, dismantled, in some cases dismantled the buildings physically and created sort of huge lumber piles of all kinds of things, library books. We'll come to that, yeah, so I'm going to. Timbers, everything. Let's switch to that now, but let's just give it a little hint. Let's talk about what they did to the structure of the buildings. The people, the more powerful and compliant negotiated pensions, as has been pointed out, that people who worked there as servants and did a lot of the work had nothing, they were just turved out and became vagrants, poor and so forth. But the cons, can we just spend this by talking about the consequences, first of all to the people and then to the buildings? Well, one of the things that there's been some work on is what happened to the monks and nuns. We know that some of them got pensions and some of them entered into a different form of religious life, like became parish priests, for example. Some nuns got married and we know about this because it was actually illegal to get married if you were a profess nun. And Henry was very against nuns getting married. Unless they'd taken their vows before they were 20, in which case they were given a sort of disdensation. And in the north of England we have lots of records of nuns who got married and had children and were then prosecuted for doing so. Now some of those nuns must have embraced their freedom. And of course, as well as being centres of female education, conference could be dumping grounds for unmarriageable second daughters. So that happened? So that happened? Education was second because this blocked the course of the opportunity of education women for a very long time to come, didn't it? Yes, absolutely. It's fair to say that women's education doesn't really even begin to recover till the early 18th century, certainly as far as sort of meddling all the women are concerned. What conference really offered was an education in languages. You couldn't really participate in European educated culture unless you were reasonably good at both Latin and French. And we certainly know that conference were good at imbuing girls with French and some were good at imbuing them with Latin. I mean, you don't get someone as sophisticated as the nuns of Sion among people without a title really, until the era of Prince V. firmly established. When I come to the kind of come to the, come we just go a little bit carefully now about how this destruction took place. So you're dissolved as a monastery, you can't pray here anymore, you can't practice here anymore. And then what excuse did they give themselves for taking all the treasures, the treasure, literally the treasure of the the goal, the masses of manuscripts they took, everything they could lay their hands on that had any value whatsoever. Well, it's a big legal contract. And the land, they own the third of the land in the country. Yes, and the contract is to say that all this land belongs to the king, full stock, where it had been given by Norman Harris Decratz in the 12th century. Well, it now belongs to the king. And so the Royal Commissioner turns up and the house is surrendered by its inhabitants. Again, another contract, how can they do that? A perpetual corporation surrendering themselves. It is surrendered to the king. And so the king can take anything valuable for his needs, particularly that essential job of an English king fighting the French. And so this is just taken out on those grounds, George. Yes, and Abbots and Monks had no right to grant their property in this way, but they did. One other interesting detail is that it seems as if they were asked to sign declarations in which they'd announced monasticism in principle terms. I mean, it isn't quite what Dermott was talking about as a national declaration against monasticism, but probably these statements, they're not all the same, were drawn up and they say that they've been involved in dumb ceremonies. But perhaps you can divide them into three stages. I'm going to stay with you, George. I'm going to be honest. The people involved, they go. The treasure and massive treasures from the little remains unbelievable cultural wealth, especially in manuscripts, almost all of that goes. And then the locals move in and ruin it. I mean, they stripped the lid off the roofs. They smashed the stained glass windows. Can you take that for the forward? What Dermott was talking about, what's it called at the beginning of the programme? Michael Sherbots. Yes. It would be the king's commissioners that would strip the roof. They would take anything like that. And that was presumably done to stop any attempt to re-people the monastery if something happened in the future. And of course, once a building is loosies its roof, it deteriorates very rapidly. Then I think the locals move in in the way that two of us try to. To take us down. Yes. Yeah. But what can you do? I mean, I'm not sure that one should read any attitudes to monasteries into that sort of behaviour. I don't think this is somehow negotiating or collaborating with the government. Is that making the best of a situation? Yeah. I think that's entirely right. I mean, we know from Hellsabby where we have records that people came and they took 300 and something or other stained glass windows and they took lead and they took beams. There's probably not an old house in England that doesn't have a monastic beams in it. But that doesn't necessarily imply that they didn't believe in monasticism or that they were all Protestant really. What it probably did, though, was produce the idea that the monasteries couldn't defend themselves, that we were discussing earlier. The fact that you could go and nick all this stuff and no lightning bolt came from the beyond and no sense struck you down probably did convey a message. Dermod? Well, I think Hells is an interesting case. This is Gloucestershire Arby where we have a detailed record of destruction. We have to remember that some monasteries were actually very unpopular and Hells was one. It had a very controversial relic at its heart, the Holy Blood, which a lot of people didn't believe in. I'm good Catholic, didn't believe in. Look at Berries and Edmunds. A house which is very arrogant and treats its town in an arrogant way. Now houses like that clearly had a generated hostility and there is a certain amount of glee when they go and that the destruction in such cases may well be settling scores, centuries old scores. Let's look at the consequences staying with you, Edmund. Here the consequences of this are massive and far reaching. The consequences are going to do it alone, the consequences of society, consequences of the, the aristocracy and the Gentry. Let's start with religion. How did you change the place of religion in this country? This very swift, a few years, destruction of the monasteries and nunneries, friaries and so on. This was a huge blow to the old traditional world of religion because these institutions had been so central to destroy the monasteries, destroyed a particular form of prayer. That made the reformation much easier. It meant that the way was clear for a much more radical attack on the old world because the church was now so much deprived of the past. There was a vacuum there into which Protestantism could flow. Also it changed a sort of, sorry, joy. Can I prompt you a little bit? The idea of pilgrimage, of course, which had been a great fact of the life. Of course, you're a blood-sicked barren country. It's almost fact, of course, one of the faults of our literature, with Chaucer and so on. That went. That was exactly the point I was going to raise that monasteries, particularly the larger monasteries, were great centres of pilgrimage. Again, that practice is not formally abolished, but if you dismantle the shrines, if you attack in effect the practice and if no one comes to rescue the saints, then that diminishes. That was a vital and flourishing part of the late-led religion. Yes indeed. That's right. The statue of a lady of Worsinger was dragged to Smithfield from Norfolk to be burned in Smithfield marketplace. Actually, Latimer refers to her as the witch of Worsinger and the witch of Hip-Switch. The statue of a lady of Hip-Switch has the witch of Hip-Switch. It's almost as though they're trying to display the fact that these statues don't have any power to defend themselves. It was the same with the Holy Blood of Hales, which was supposed to be the blood of Christ. I think several attempts were made to identify what it really was, slightly impulsively applying a kind of empiricism, was it actually honey that was coloured with saffron, was it actually some sort of solid? By the time they'd sort of poked and prided it empirically and it hadn't done anything dramatic to them, it was felt to be worthless. So that whole medieval system of piety through objects was discredited when the monasteries fell. But can we talk about the way it's changed the habits of Pilgrim? We've talked about place of prayers being displaced as the centre of the visible church, as it refers to in this country, talking about pilgrimages. We also mentioned relics, so to end, towards the end of the great adoration of relics. People like Rasmus have been skeptical, but this was pushed out. What about the land? Can we talk a little about what happened at this one third of the land of this country? And how that changed things? Well, to him who has shall be given as the motto and the dissolution, it's really the upper classes who get the land. The king wanted it. It seems that Cromwell's plan is to give the king a huge estate for good. And in that case, he could probably have ignored Parliament. But the king had so many needs for money, for his wars, the lands are sold off, and the people who've got them were the people with money. So it's a gentry, it's the ability who really benefit here. Can you give us some examples? So Diane, perhaps you want to come in and say, who got hell with it and what they did with it and where it is or so. I want to give you two really crucial examples of gentry who were living off what had been monastic lands. One is Oliver Cromwell, and the other is Thomas Fairfax, the architects of the Parliamentary and Victory in the English Civil War. They were back then. Almost exactly 100 years later. They were truly by family monastic lands. And it's fair to say that the class of people who perhaps most strenuously and universally oppose Charles's notion of what the monarch might be were the greater gentry who'd been enriched by the dissolution of the monasteries. John, do you want to take that up? It's certainly very, very interesting what happens to land. What is striking is that most of it is sold at market prices, something like 20 years purchase. It's not given away. And that implies that those who are buying already have some wealth. I suspect a lot of the purchase in the 1540s and 1550s are defensive. If you are a local landowner, perhaps a small one, there's a monastery in your area. It's been dissolved. Its lands are available. If you don't buy them someone else will, and that will upset the local balance of power. But the consequence of that for the family over generations may well be if the demography works in your favour to strengthen the family. The resigning idea, the old idea that Henry VIII dissolved the monotony to get the money to fight the wars. How much money did he get to fight how many wars and how did that work out, David? Well, very large sum, not quite as much as he got from debasing the coinage. Another great contract played on the English people. He used it to build a large number of forts around the South Coast. The last dissolution of the 1538 and the 1839s mostly spent on these forts, which are still there. They are very fine. As usual, with such defence systems, virtually useless, they would never really put too much use. The French sailed past them and invaded past them. So it's squandered in a sense on security issues. It's not much used, except I will say as an academic that he did found two major colleges, one at Trinity and one at Oxford, which still flourish, and are intended as the centre of the university. One's called Trinity, the other's called Christchurch, which means the same thing. So there are some good uses, but not nearly as much say as what the German princes did with their money from monasteries, which were put into hospital schools. What about hospital schools, the poor, which had been part of, so we read the monasteries function in purpose? What happened to, we know, down as briefly, tell us about women, what about looking after to the centre they did the poor? It must have had a damaging impact. 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