The Difference Between Love that Looks Right and Feels Right

I'm going to admit something that took me a little too long to realize. For most of my life, I always wanted a relationship that looked right to everyone else. I wanted a kind of relationship that most people would describe as goals, the influencer couple, the boss couple. The couple that looked so good together that everybody else couldn't help but be jealous of that. My guest today, Tamara, had exactly that. By every metric that looks like it mattered, she had the perfect partner. They were both actors, they had the same dream, the same brand. And from the outside, it's what most people would describe as couple goals. But from the inside, she describes it more like a campaign. And it wasn't until she moved to New York where everything she thought about love changed. Today, Tamara tells me a story about the love that we wish for. And the difference between a love that looks right and a love that actually feels right. And down to a different student fully understand until she was on the other side of it. Welcome Tamara to the show. Tamara, thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much for having me. It's amazing. So we spoke for two hours yesterday in Washington Square Park. And one of the things that you said that still sticks with me was the idea that you used to have about love. And you were talking about the scene in Romeo and Juliet that really crystallized what love is for you. Just have the scene for me. What does it look like? Yeah, it was that scene in Romeo and Juliet where they're looking at each other through the fish tank. And both of them have this awe and wonderment in their eyes. And everything just shifts. Everything stops, everything around them blurs and it's just them together looking at each other in a trance almost. And it's like I just, I always prayed for that type of love like that. Oh my gosh, like I know that this is my person and you can just see it from the moment that you meet them. So I really craved that. And I just, I remember getting so emotional watching that movie and that particular scene because they were like, there was no one else, nothing else, mattered in life. It was just them. And I thought that was absolutely the epitome of love. So many ways that is the pinnacle of love that I think were kind of taught looks like. And you end up experiencing the type of love at some point in your life. At an eye level, we were both actors and we were doing long distance for quite some time for eight months. He was in Tasmania and I was in Sydney and it was really, really important to me that communication was key. So I was like just at least once a day at the very end of the day, recap your day with me. And he would advocate that he's too busy. He would try and make time to like either voice note or whatever it have, you know, what have you be. But it was almost as if it was this really arduous chore and almost impossible to do. And then when I, it wasn't until I got out of the relationship that like I'd talk to people, you know, and they would talk about how basic that need was. But when I was inside the relationship, he made me feel like it was, I was asking for the mood, like I was asking for the world to just have basic communication. So then when I came to New York and I got this scholarship to come here and study acting in New York and in that very first week, I was so worried because I was like, oh my gosh, are we going to resort back to not communicating in the way that I know how and the way that I need. And then when he slacked on that, I was like, okay, well, we're obviously not working here. And then he wasn't actually seeking to apologize for it. But instead he was like, yep, okay, we're not working. For six weeks while you're doing your course, I don't want any contact. And I was like, what? What are you talking about? Are you not going to apologize? Like a men, like make any amendments for like, I'm so sorry, Tim, like I have slacked on communication. That is a habit of mine. I'm a, I'm a B there. I'm so sorry. He was not willing to do that and show up for me like that. And I was like, whoa, I literally don't know anyone in New York. This is my first week here. Like this is such a shock to my system. But yeah, I kind of realized like he doesn't actually, if he really loved me, he would check in with me, make sure that I'm okay, even if we are apart, okay, sure. But the fact is he wants to communicate, he wants to come back at the end of the six weeks and talk as mature adults. And I'm like, is there even a point in talking like you don't care for me in the way that I need. We're not trying to get back with each other. So why are we connecting again? When you got that type of love, how long did that last? Like what happened after? There was conflicts happening. I would hold onto that first image of him and how I first saw him and how that feeling is so rare that you just like, you meet your one. And so I was like, well, I had met my one. So any conflicts that we're having right now, it doesn't matter because I have met my one, apparently. So I just kind of, if those conflicts were happening, I would either push them to the side and think about that initial phase image or I would think about a future image of us. That's actually really interesting because I feel like that doesn't sound like a bad thing to me, right? It seems like you found a reason to hold onto the relationship. Yeah. Can you talk to me about like what did that relationship actually look like? Because I think from what we talked about, you said in a lot of ways it was like perfect on paper. I guess I loved the optics of us and the fact that we had very similar values or somewhat similar values, very similar ambitious spirit. And we had akin parallel interests in our fields. Like we were both actors. But I guess what it ended up looking like was I had a lot of needs for the relationship that I had to feel like I was campaigning for all the time. And I almost felt like I had to beg for. And I was like, this shouldn't be what love is. Like this should just be here. Like present. I shouldn't have to feel like I'm in the state of like, wait, because I'm in love, right? And that person should love me in the way that I know how to love that person and they should be able to reciprocate that. So many people I talk to kind of grow up in this world where we like our fed the Romeo and Juliet thing or we like, have Pinterest boards of like their wedding. Yeah. I think what I'm really curious about is what does that look like for you? Oh my God. I used to literally make vision boards and AI. AI. AI. In our future. Walking. This is. Chat GBT was like three years ago. This is, oh, so this is, this is like my relationship, you know, recently. I thought we were talking about we were like 15. No, no, yeah, I was like we're 15, but I see something so J. Yeah, I used to just make up like, you know, get these chat GBT generated images and put them on my vision board of us walking the red carpet. No. No, I wanted to see that. That's so cute. That's happening for us because like, it wasn't just like the optics of like, you know, maybe the fact that we were both actors and going for the same ambitions and wanting to make it in the US or wherever it might be, but it was also, yeah, just I guess that future of having marriage, having like way down the line, but like, I thought we just looked so good on paper. And for example, like Margot Robbie and her husband and the fact that they have their own production company, I looked at that and was just like, oh my days, like I want something like that, like where we can make work together as well and empower in each other. To do our careers. Yeah. It'd be so intrinsically connected. I really liked, I really liked the notion of that, but when I saw that he wasn't really interested in that or that, that might be detrimental to his career and the optics of what he looked like, then I started to question how much he loved me. To heart to me about the type of love you received from the family growing up. They are so proud, I don't know if that Filipino pride in my mom or just like the dedication that my dad would also give to knowing all about my life, my Nana, knowing every single detail about my whereabouts, my happenings in my life. Like she literally would have a calendar and mark when and where I was going to be. Like she'd be like, tomorrow, how was that dinner to be on 2pm on Thursday? I'm like, Nana, what, how do you remember that? How old is she? She was 90. Wow. Oh, she was 89, yeah. And she would literally have this impeccable memory and I was like, then how do you remember this and she said, well, what did I, of course, I care and everything. And I'm like, oh, that means so much to me. And I would like recap those details and yeah, that kind of love just knowing every, not missing, not missing any details and being able to be so attuned to what I was doing because she had faith in me as a person, in my spirit, in my career, everything. And that's the same as my dad as well. He'd be so attuned to, okay, how's that particular house you find out? It's like, he'd ask me, did you get paid? You know, as an actress, I'm sure it's like, he's really cares about that. things. And then, you know, my mom and dad always coming, so I was in Harry Potter in the Curse Child in Melbourne, the stage show, and I was a swing, so it meant that I had like six seven rolls. Six seven rolls, that I love it. That I had to debut. And so every time I was like, "Oh, guys, I'm going to debut in Moning Mertle," and they literally would be like, "All right, we're coming through." They'd fly for this. They literally fly from Sydney to Melbourne. And I'm like, "You don't have to do that." And it was no question. They're like, "Of course, we're going to try and make that happen." What do you mean? Of course, we're going to be that. And my sister was the same. She was like, "Your debut is like Delphi as Moning M-Of course, I'm going to be an Omer God." And it was so loud and proud. There was so in such pride for me, and for my achievements. And I was like, "It was just, it's just like nothing else. I'm so blessed for that type of love." And so I was kind of hoping to expect that from a relationship, and from being in love, someone would show that as well. Because I'd be so willing to give that, because I know this perfect, beautiful model of love that was showcased to me all my life. Can you tell me the Baptist story when you were six? I had this build-up air that was my prized love. And yeah, essentially, I wanted to baptize it because I was Catholic. And so my whole fan literally rallied behind it, and they dressed up in suits and dresses, and my sister was the priest. And literally was like, "You're the father of Son of Holy Spirit, and I'm like holding the bear." Oh my God. I was, yeah, how did your parents react when they came in? Through this, my dad was very serious and stoic and was like, "This must be done." Because we loved tomorrow. We loved her. And she knows that this will make her very happy. So we must do this task. And this is her request. We show up. And my mom was just beaming, and my sister was just laughing so hard because obviously it's just like, "All the fuck is happening right now." You know, like, why are we holding a baptism for a bear? In your living room is crazy. Yeah, so I got the photos, I got the food she banged things. But yeah, they just, should I say the embarrassing part? They were not embarrassed. They just were not embarrassed to do such a thing. Like, they were just so outwardly expressing of their love for me and whatever they needed to do to make me happy essentially. Yeah. And I didn't, I didn't like beg for them to do this. I was like, "Guys, I'm thinking of holding a baptism for a fun little idea." What a little idea. "Baptize my daddy bear." How do you feel? Can you get around it? And they were like, "Absolutely." I'm like, "What?" And so, yeah, that to me is love. I think the most beautiful part about that is it didn't make you feel weird for it because frankly, like, I was laughing a lot of the time because my sister literally wore, I think, a cloak or something. Oh my god. You know, insinuate that she was a priest. Right. And she was like, "Turtle my. " Everybody bought into this group. Everyone bought into it and it was just the most maddening expression of love. But truly vulnerable and beautiful and hilariously embarrassing. Can you talk to me about those actions of buying in? Yes. What did that look like when you got older? Yeah. That sort of love manifested in the modern, in the contemporary. Like, when I'd have a theater show, an opening night. And my sister would just like, she was just so proud of me and she would stay outside the stage door immediately as it was done and would be like, "You were phenomenal." Killed that and like, she gave me the biggest hug and she was beaming. Like, just so happy for me. So naturally, organically, post me on social media. Be so proud of my achievements. It was no question I had to ask her. I didn't even, I didn't even need her to do that, but like, it just, it was just so blatantly obvious that she's so invested in my career. And sometimes even more invested than me, like, she just had utter faith that I would excel in my craft. And I just, that's showcasing of love. Like, I know it's just social media, but like, it matters, especially in our day and age. Like, those little things really matter to me. And I'm like, "Oh, no, we thank you so much." Like, and I do that for her band too. And their logo shut out. But yeah, like literally, it's our way of, you know, showcasing love. I feel like, those moments are probably so important to you too. Right? Like, this is like, you've dedicated your entire life to this. And like, even if it's like a small thing to you, like, they're showing up. Yes, yes. Hands down in every, in every sense that they can. If they're seeing my show, like, if they want to come countless times, like, I'm not asking them, but they're like, of course, we'll be there. That's no question for us. You know, that it's so important that we're there for you. And we are in your corner. Yeah, or it's showing it on social media. And it's, it just feels like it's not a hard task. You know, it feels like because it's important to you, it's important to them. That's it. Exactly. Like, they can see that these things really matter to me. And even like a dentist appointment at 2pm, it's so important for my health, that my Nana would pay attention to these details because those things matter to me. And she'll remember these things. And yeah, that's, that's to me, is showing up for love. Yeah. Can you talk to you about what the reality of, like, the Romeo and Juliet starting relationship ended up turning into? The Romeo and Juliet fantasy or sort of, like, infatuation feeling sort of wavered and became something of, I need this. You need this. I'll be able to do that for you. Can you do this for me? Oh, you can't. You're going to make a compromise. Oh, okay. Do I have to ask you again? Oh, I, I feel guilty now for asking for those things again and again. And it just kind of became the cycle of me having to be like, why am I having to beg for these things that are so innately showing up in my normal life of my friends and my family being able to proudly, you know, support me or love me or check in with me, communicate with me. Those things were so, so intrinsically done in my life. So when I was asking my partner, it felt like I was like asking for the world. Like, I was like, why does this feel so hard? What were you asking from your partner? Yeah, I was just asking for him to be so proud of me essentially and like showcase me on social media. Like, these, these are very mundane examples and like feels like, what, why would you, but like those tiny little things matter? It was a small theater but quite a professional stage. And after the show, it was opening night and my sister would be so beaming, like, beaming and so happy that I did the show. And she's like, how was it? Oh my god. And by contrast, my partner at the time was, by contrast, my ex was, didn't say a word and he was too interested in who was in the room. And I was like, is he okay? And my sister was like, yeah, what's going on with him? I'm like, oh, he's probably just concerned about, you know, how he is presenting in the industry. It's fine, it's fine. And I would brush it aside because I'm like, I love him. I have so much respect for his career and what he's trying to do out here. It doesn't matter that I just did an opening night and that I just poured my heart out. At least I had my sister here being like, you did that shit. You know what I mean? Like, you killed that, you know? But then, yeah, by contrast, I did put whatever was happening there aside and it wasn't until after the relationship that my sister would be like, remember that night that like he literally like didn't even congratulate you. Like literally didn't even say that you were amazing. He literally was more concerned about who was in the room that he could maybe network with. It was that plus just doing long distance with him and then having to ask him to communicate with me once a day, just at the end of the day. But he said that he was too busy. I'm like, bitch, I'm a very busy person as well. But I know how to communicate. Like, I know how to make a little bit of time set aside a time to either voice note you a big recap of the day or vice versa. But I had these examples of my family being like calling me up and like, oh my gosh, how is your first day in New York? Tell me, you know? And so I was kind of expecting that would happen from my ex at the time. This goes on, but six weeks ago something happened. My heart and my mind were not in collaboration. They never are. This is how it goes. My mind was like this ain't working. I feel like I've been begging for you to communicate with me. Just lacking again and you're not apologizing for it. But my heart was still like, but I love you and maybe I should forgive it again. But my mind was like one track of like, no, no, no, no, no, this isn't working. This isn't working. And so my mind went straight to, well, okay, well, we're not working. We should break up. We should break up. Did you mean that? Oh, fuck. In hindsight, yes, because that relationship was already in. in a tumultuous way. We just brought the worst out of each other, I think, by the end, because we were continually trying to, I was continually trying to campaign for these needs and getting really triggered when something wasn't there. And I might have, I would blow up when something's quite minute, like missing a day of communication, I guess quite small in reality, but for me, at the time, I was just like, "Oh, this is our whole world, we can't do long distance, "how are we going to even cope when we get major roles, "major roles that allow us to be away for six months "at a time, whatever." So, yeah, and just really quickly, but my sister would show me that, like, she's like, "Tam, I don't even need to communicate with my fiancee "like a day in a day, like, "because I can just trust that, like, it would be chill." I'm like, "What?" And she's like, "Yeah, because I know that he's obsessed with me." - Oh. - What do you mean? And I'm like, and I just like, just have this big moment of realization, because I'm like, he's not obsessed with me, he doesn't know what I'm doing in the day, I have to continually ask him to, like, track some in my, in his calendar, about what I'm doing in the day. - Yeah. - He's actually, and I knew that fact during the relationship, that he wasn't obsessed with me, like, my sister said. - Yeah. - And so I was like, "I knew that about the relationship, "but I still decided to persist and fight through," 'cause I was like, "That's what love is, love looks like, "fighting for the relationship, "knowing that the optics of us in the future look amazing, "so we've got to hold on, we've got to hold on." And then, yeah, it wasn't until that moment in the first week of my time in New York, on this scholarship, I have six weeks here, and in that first week, he was slacking, and I was like, "Well, we're done, right?" I mean, we're done, and then he was just like, "Okay, we're done, we're done." And I was like, "What do you mean?" Like, "Are you not gonna, like, apologize?" Are you not gonna say, "Yeah, shit, I really slapped, "I'm gonna make amendments, like, "I'm gonna do this, this, this, and this." And I'm like, "So yeah, it was on my part to not, "it's really, I acknowledged that it was a really terrible thing "to threaten the relationship, if I didn't really mean it, "but my mind knew that it wasn't working." Even though my heart has so much love for this person, and care for this person, but I just realized, like, I was so much more invested in this relationship than he was. - Yeah, well, I mean, in so many ways, you were initiating the breakup was like a call for help. - Literally, yeah. - Literally, yeah. - If you're in a relationship with someone initiating the breakup, - Yes. - If they wanna be there, they'll say something. - Correct. - Right? Like, I feel like him saying, okay, said everything. - In itself, literally. And like, and then from that point on, he's like, no contact for six weeks, like all the time that you're there. And I'm like, "How the fuck do I know anyone here?" Like, I just got here, like, you don't wanna check in, you don't wanna, like, uh, what's the most inopportune time? Or is it not the most inopportune time? Maybe there's no better time for this to happen to me. Like, maybe this is exactly what I needed to be in the city of opportunity. - Yeah. - So, yeah, it was something strangely poetic about it happening not in your usual place of, strangely poetic about it not happening in your usual place of stay. - Yeah. - Do you know what I mean? - No, I mean, as soon as you move to here, that's, I mean, you're either gonna have a worse time of your life or the best time of your life. - Literally, just really quickly, I have this quote, I found, New York is the end of your past and place of rebirth. - Wow. - And that was another-- - You take that photo? - I found it online, but it did appear in my feed for a reason. - I agree. - And I'm like, that truck is a moving truck in Midtown, so, like, Midtown, Lower Manhattan, so I'm a hope to find it. - I think that's beautiful. - Yeah, yeah. - How have the past six weeks been so far? - In the initial phase, like, for the first couple of days, I was obviously shook, devastated, 'cause I was just shocked by the whole thing, and shocked that we wouldn't even speak anymore. - Yeah. - But then, as time has passed, I'm like, I didn't realize how much weight was off my shoulders. Like, I literally, I have not felt lighter. I was like, oh my gosh, but that feeling felt impossible inside the relationship, because inside the relationship, you think that your whole world is going to literally crumble, because you're like, you are so in love with this person. You know what your future looks like, you know what, you know all the sequence of events that will occur in the next few years with that person, 'cause you dedicated your whole, yeah, everything. So I thought my whole world would crumble, and I would be shattered. But it was literally crazy, like, on the second day, or the third day, I was like, oh, I was like, like, I was like, oh my gosh, I don't have to stress about my needs not being met, 'cause he doesn't need to fulfill them anymore. I don't need that shit anymore from him. I'll have it from someone who will just innately give it without me having to plead. - Yeah, when you're going through a break of it, it feels so real. Like, it genuinely feels like it's, because it's gonna work out everything is over. - And from the outside, looking in and out, it's like, just like it seems so silly. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - It just, it feels that way. - Yes. - And I'm so glad on the third day, is when it finally, like, lifted. - It did, yeah. - Everybody hits a point where like, the weight is off your shoulders. - Yes, yes. And it was crazy how instantaneous it was. I thought it would take me months. But I was like, oh, you know, maybe years, but like, I didn't realize how much stress I was going through inside the relationship. - Yeah. But what I find so interesting is like, you were obviously stressed and overwhelmed in the relationship and your needs weren't being met. And after it ended, you were able to find that, like relief. - Yeah. - Why do you think it's so easy to stay when things look perfect, but don't feel perfect? - Well, because you still love the person, you still remind yourself of the happy times. I would drill that in my mind. I was like, oh, but we laugh so good together. You know, like, I know that I'm really goofy, and that side of myself is unlocked because you work up to that stage with someone, like, you know what I mean? And then once you get to that stage, you can be a full self. And I'm like, oh, that's going to take so much rebuilding with another person, you know what I mean? And so I already got to that stage. And then also, I so tightly wound held onto this image of our future and image of the potential of marriage or, you know, what have you. - AI generated images. - AI generated vision board images of us on the red carpet. And so like, yeah, you just hold onto that. You really hold onto that. And you just, you let go of all the other stuff because you're like, well, you also, I don't know. It was also my impetus to be like, I gotta work through these things. I have to work on these challenges in my life because that will make me a stronger person. And I was like, oh, I'm going to, this is gonna be so good for my growth as a woman as an independent woman. (laughing) To be in a relationship where we can be nonchalant like you want to be. But that's not what I actually genuinely want in a relationship. Like I want love that is like pride and embarrassing and willing to maybe not too much PDA, but like hold my hand in public and not be like, - God forbid. - For bid, you know? And for like not, you know, but be so proud of that and be so interconnected, intrinsically connected in that way, you know? It's so easy to convince yourself to be in a relationship once you're already attached. It's, it's the hardest thing to leave when it's not what you're out. - Yeah, yeah, that's it. - For the last word, I just want to know, what do you want people to walk away from this knowing? - It feels so damn, it feels so scary. And I know because I've been through it to imagine choosing yourself first and being like, if that person isn't meeting my needs, you have to listen to it and you have to know that you will be brave enough and courageous enough to survive on your own and do everything on your own. I just feel like inside the relationship, maybe some co-dependencies were built and that sort of thing built and that sort of thing, but I think really importantly, at the end of the day, I chose myself, even though I felt like my mind and my heart weren't in collaboration, my mind knew that this wasn't working and knew that I deserved better and I deserved to prioritize myself and prioritize my needs and not having to do things like begging and convincing and pleading. No one ever should have to resort to that. They should be able to be like, this is something that I need, can you fulfill that? No, that's fine, okay. - You were amazing. What was your name again? - Tamara. - Preston, nice to meet you. - Perfect. - That's it for today's episode. Thank you so much for listening. And if you feel like you learned something new, please stay tuned for a new episode every single week. And if you want to see more, please make sure to follow, like, subscribe, rate, whatever. It genuinely makes a huge difference and helps us keep finding new people to talk to you every week. Thank you so much. I'm Preston and it was nice to meet you.