‘The Devil Wears Prada 2’ and the Movies That Feel Like Our Lives

I'm Sean Fantasy and this is the big picture at Conversation Show about Angels and Devils. Today on the show, we are digging into two films that excavate our mid-oughts past. The big one is the highly anticipated sequel "The Devil Wears Prada 2." Later in this episode, I will be joined by Chandler LeVac, the writer-director of Not One, but two films coming out this year, Mile N. Kicks, her portrait of a young music writer in Canada circa 2011, as well as the Netflix comedy "Rumates," which comes from Adam Sandler's happy Madison. Chandler and I had eerily similar young adult experiences as music writers and movie nerds, had a wonderful talk about these worlds colliding, and how she put them in her movies. Stick around for that conversation, but first, we've got to talk about Amanda's past and her future right after this. Okay, Anna Winter, you ready for this? Yeah, it did feel very fitting to be sitting silently in my sunglasses throughout that entire intro. You know, maybe I should do that for every episode. Consider it. Yeah, I'm going to leave them on for like the big question, and then I'll be a normal person and take them off. Also, I should just say, the sunglasses are the one thing I'm wearing that's not Prada. I'm sorry. It didn't occur to me until this morning that I should source Prada sunglasses along with everything else. I don't know why. I'm in perfect. Were you just talking to? Were you just speaking to the camera? You should. Various cameras, people watching, my other selves, you know, regrets. I have a few. But here we are. I'm doing the best that I can. We're here. Your fandom has come for you in your 40s, just like it came for me. And we're here to talk about the Devil Wars promise. The film is directed as was the original by David Frankl. It's written as was the original by Analyne Brosh McKenna. It stars Merrill Street and Hathaway Emily Blunt and Stanley Tucci. They were all on the first one. And this movie is about Andy Sacks returning to the world of Miranda Priestly at the famed magazine Runway. It's also about the future of journalism, especially at magazines. So we've been waiting months to ask you, what did you think of the Devil Wars Prada too? I'm a piece. I am. And much like Miranda Priestly, I'm learning that my expectations and standards cannot be met in the same way in 2026. And maybe that's okay. Mostly it's not. Mostly it's a referendum on how the world is fucked, but it's, it's, it's not a disaster. It's not a disaster of a movie. Right? If I can speak for you, we both. I tell you what. Yeah. I liked it. I liked it too. I think that it is obviously not as good as the first movie. And, but it's not embarrassing and it's fun and very entertaining and interesting. And maybe interesting enough, at least to me and you to like reformed kind of nasty editors to make it good because there's a lot that I want to talk about. The first Devil Wars Prada is, is to me a modern masterpiece for a number of reasons. But obviously like a light, fizzy fun concoction about fashion and has multiple makeovers and you get to go to Paris and you dump your bad boyfriend. It's got amazing performances, including one of Merrill Street's best performances ever in, in, in my opinion, but also the supporting cast, you know, kind of announces Emily Blunt. It's really funny. It's really fizzy, obviously really quotable. And then is also like a very good movie about being good at your job and even what the definition of being good at your job is and what that requires, what it costs, what, you know, what you are willing and willing to give up in order to do that. This second movie is about how being good at your job doesn't matter because the world is falling apart and that is compelling, but also kind of a bummer. And so this movie is slightly more melancholy. It's, everyone is not on their A game, especially Miranda Priestly. And so I think that it's, it's smart and way more insightful about the world than I expect about the media specifically than I expected this movie to be. But you know, you don't walk out with the same high. Yeah, it gives you many of the things that the first film gave you in that fan service way, where the characters are almost specifically repeating actions from the first movie to remind you of the legacy of the film, but the tone and subject matter, huh, is surprisingly different. And a lot of times when you have a legacy sequel like this, they tend to be overly exuberant in trying to get you back to that feeling that it was so important to you when you first saw a movie. And this movie is ultimately not that interested in making you feel as happy, as, as buoyant as the first film did, which, you know, as a, as a man in his 40s, I relate to it. Like I think that there's something practical and sincerely honest about the movie in a way that I'm very curious to see how the world at large feels about it, whether or not they receive it as excitedly, but as you say, having worked at Condé Nast myself, having been a magazine editor, having watched the world of media transform in ways that have been, you know, very beneficial for us, but not so beneficial for a lot of people that we've worked with over the years, the movie is pretty real, like shockingly real for a fizzy romcom legacy. Right. It's not a romcom. But that's okay. I understand. Well, it stars. This one is a bit more than the first, sure, but we'll, you know, we'll talk about that. There is calm. There is calm, but there has been a lot of argument and discussion over whether the original Devil Wars product counts as a romantic comedy or is it just a successful movie starring and about women. There is a distinction. If it is a romantic comedy, it's between Miranda and Andy, and it is about, and it's a romantic comedy about the workplace, but, you know, potato potato. Well, where would you like to begin this, this guy's section? I'm gonna take my sunglasses off. Okay. Probably a good idea. Okay. Do I have like sunglasses, Mark? I don't know how Anna navigates this. No, you're good. David, I thank you so much. Okay. Yeah. So it's good. Like baseline, let's just talk about the fact that the movie is pretty good, not as good, but pretty good. And it is funny, it includes all of the people and the scenes that you remember in mostly clever ways, even when it is kind of recreating beat-for-beat moments from the first film. It does it like in a smart way, and it feels less forced and more winky-winky. It was very strange to be leaning over to you throughout the movie and being like, so that is a reference to the opening of the movie when she's also brushing her teeth and all the other girls are putting on, you know, counting out their all-mins. So it does have a lot of easter eggs, but it is weirdly not about fashion, which I thought was it is, it's set at a fashion magazine, and it has way more fashion cameos than the first movie because famously, the original movie had difficulties getting close and fashion personalities because of their fear of Anna Wentor and now Vogue and Anna Wentor are very much on board with the sequel. We should definitely talk about that. Yeah, so lots of cameos, but it's really just about trying to keep runway afloat. And it has that four-sequel thing where you got to bring everybody back together. It's 20 years later. It's not particularly natural that any of these people would be in the same place. And that feels a little bit of a bummer, you know, Emily Blunt, who is the Emily character and no longer works at runway, which makes sense. But that means she's always kind of a satellite to the show. And I think that happens with any sequel. There's no way to get around that. And that new people kind of feel tacked on. It's not the most beautifully photographed film that I've ever seen. Would you like to read your own comments? Yeah, thanks for writing those down so that I can have them forever. At a certain point, I did note to you that this looked like an episode of the morning show. I think there is a kind of glossy, otherworldly digital photography that has creeped into a lot of modern movies, especially movies like this that are set in the real world. And so it looked like an episode of television at times, also just a tremendous amount of drone shots. And I understand why there are so many drone shots is because this movie, which I know you love, travels all over the place. It's capturing New York City on location. It's capturing several places in Italy, on location. You know, there are these great vistas, but the way that those are all captured now are in the same kind of consistently repetitive, like you're in on a location and then you're pulling away and away and away and away and away and you're seeing the scope of the city. I think we get that shot about 10 times in this movie. And it's nice that we have that technology now to show the real world, but it just creates a kind of like saminess that feels like a hotel commercial. And so I didn't love that. I think the stars in this movie, though, look fantastic. They do. It's kind of astonishing. Yeah. And not in like digitized or, you know, what was happening here, they have all aged. And aged well, and with aid, I would say, but believably and look very beautiful. And there's just there still is that joy of getting to watch both marbles outfits and in half ways outfits, like, and in half way, just being both of them being so very beautiful, like up on screen, larger than life in these places and these outfits that we would not Not normally. - And in that way, I think it feels like an event movie, right? Like everyone looks amazing in that respect. Let's talk about Miranda and the way that Miranda is characterized in this movie because I guess I felt, I should have seen this coming, but I was quite surprised by the way that they evolved or devolved this character. And I even read a little bit of criticism about it, and it sounds like it echoes your own. So who is she in the movie in 2026? Well, she is shepherding this kind of, this dwindling empire that is runway, which just bears a startling at this point and amazing level of resemblance to Vogue. Obviously, they've always been leaning on that and the appeal of the first movie was that it was based on Warren White Spurger's novel, Devil Wars Prada, and Warren White Spurger is a former assistant to Anna Winter. And so, you know, that you were getting like an unimproved peak behind the scenes of how this very glitzy, exclusive fashion magazine and this larger than life woman operates was part of the appeal. Now, it just seems like they have their own Zoom account into every single conda-nast meeting. I thought the number of specifics from taking the town cars away to management consultants coming in. McKinsey is name checked, which for those of you don't know after the crash in 2008, McKinsey, the consulting management firm was brought into conda-nast and the days of your and the unlimited budgets and the glamorous lifestyle portrayed in the first Devil Wars Prada was cut, slashed in very much the way that is described in this film. Just for the listeners at home, you and I also began working in conda-nast right after that happened. After McKinsey, yeah, so which is, you know, which is our tragedy and maybe why this movie speaks so much to us because we were raised on one version and, you know, we wanted to be, I, you know, I wanted to be Tina Brown, you can, I don't know who you want it to be, but any number of GQ and your credit - They were living large. And by the time we got there, it was, you know, just waiting for someone to bring you back some printed out stuff at one in the morning. So that you could then take the subway home. It was tough stuff. So it is quite accurate and specific. The level of specificity that is lent to these details around what has happened to a magazine industry ultimately constitutes the drama of the movie. Like the narrative conflict of the movie is about how the magazine industry is falling apart and the ways in which it is impacting, essentially every single character in the movie. Which to us is of course an ongoing concern in something that we think about and talk about and gossip about throughout our friendship. Like I do people care about this. - So it's opened up a little bit where that at some point the magazine becomes upon between a very Jeff Bezos like character played by Justin Thoreau who's committing - So funny. He's very funny. - And, and he has an ex-wife played by Lucy Liu who's like a combination of Mackenzie Scott, formerly Bezos and Lurian Powell Jobs in terms of, she's now reinventing her own life and she has a public philanthropic arm that she's working on. So there is then, not it's pulling too much, like the next generation, there's a David Ellison like character who shows up to oversee Elias Clark, which is the stand-in for Condynast. And there is a decent amount of billionaires just playing chess in beautiful locations while the jobs and passions of many people are at stake. So it's both specific to magazines and also recognizable to a lot of us at this day and time. - In the age of consolidation. - But it is, but the specifics again, Miranda Priestly, her personal tension is that she's up for the quote unquote global content director job, which is the job that Anna Wentworth like has now. And so they're really just cribbing very specifically from this place in a way that I did not expect and was also a little bit like, to your point, is anyone who's not us gonna care? - What about the nature of Miranda, the way that? - Yeah, well, so that's the other thing because she's, you know, saddled with all of this and runway is not once what it was and the company's gonna be sold off in magazines or not once what they were. She's just reduced. And the first movie is all about her being at the top of her game and being like the best in the world and being terrifying and she's confident and funny and, you know, like a terrible boss also, but then sort of an anti-hero. And there's, she has two moments of weakness of threat. Obviously her personal life that's seen with the divorce, Rupert Murdoch should cut a check for all the newspapers he's sold off. And then also that there's a threat of the French editor taking her job, which she bats away. And she's like, no, no, I've known what was going on for some time. - And both of these things are also very closely based on real life, I don't want to experience this. - But you know, in both of those. - So the Karine Roype felt? Was that her name? - Yeah, I remember that. - So they, she's, you know, briefly humbled, but then she fixes it. This one is all humbling. This is all, she's always scrambling. She has to talk about page views, just an alarming amount of times. At one point she says the word social pins. She flies coach, which like even now a con-in-assed Anna's, like maybe if you work at Spotify, but not a con-in-ass still. - That's the one note that really strains pruduality is her sliding into a three-seater with her assistant. - And also then she's sitting in the middle next versus it, which is, you know, it's for a visual gag. And it's fine, but it's like, come on. We all know that Anna's still, still fighting first. That's fine, but she knows funny. Because she's not as competent and she's not on top, so she doesn't have the one-liners. There are almost, she's not in it quite as much, but she doesn't have, you know, that's, she says that's all once in a moment of defeat. I think it's wise to not do that many like florals for spring, groundbreaking, or like why is no one ready? But she doesn't have any of those big moments, and then she has a shocking amount of like emotion and shows gratitude to almost every character in her life. And that to me is the real sin, like by the third one, okay? I was glad that Nigel got a moment. - Yeah. - I was too. - That's really nice, Nigel's great. And for a moment actually, and I thought that they were leaving Nigel behind, and I was like, I will walk right out of this theater. That to me is all the people being like, I can't believe they let that woman in Lilo and stitch good in education. To me, like leaving Nigel behind, I'm like, that is my line. They don't need Nigel behind. It's okay, but that's fine. - Nigel is Stanley Tucci's character for the record. - Yeah, okay, I like that. - He's not a real man. (laughing) - And then it's fine that she has to have like - You're really a mom moment. - You're in your comic book era with this. - I know. - It's really really funny. - I've been training my whole life for this. This is it, you know, I got one movie, I got Make Count. But that she's nice to basically everyone else, Kenneth Branagh is her new husband, who's a concert violinist. - I believe he's in a quartet. - Ludacris character. - He only shows up to be nice to her and tell her to do what you want. (laughing) Like, I mean, I guess he's good at it. - Yeah, he can see why she likes him 'cause he has no interiority. - She's just a kind guy who's handsome and older. - Yeah, he just flies in from Stockholm and is like, you imagine what you wanna do when you wake up tomorrow and go do that. - That's what I say to you before every episode. - So to me, the greatest thing is not that she's, you know, vulnerable or reduced in status, it's that she's a deeply emotional. - Mm-hmm. - I wouldn't say deeply emotional, I think. So to me, my perspective on this is that performance in the first film, which is so interesting and that she said she based on Clint Eastwood, right? And she never really raises her voice. She has almost that kind of burning whisper when she's talking. She has the same, Meryl Streep is giving the same kind of performance here, but with fewer one liners and so that acting approach is less effective because she just seems kind of low energy, delivering lines with some degree of, maybe not sincerity is the word, but directness. It's not just about cutting people down. It's about trying to solve a problem at the company that she works at. And so it's just a little less fun to watch Miranda through the movie. - They also hinted the fact that she has been somewhat reformed and there are a few scenes where assistant is played by Simone Ashley, whose job is essentially to tell her when she's said something inappropriate and that she's no longer allowed to say anymore because of, you know. - Yeah, a lot of shared like. - Yeah, like, no, no, no, no, I can't say New Jersey, which are like moderately funny, but there is a little bit to the reconception of the character adjusting that she cannot like fully express or be herself anymore because of, you know, the world and the way it is outside. It's a very, it is a very Gen Z movie. And I find that which makes sense, right? This is, well, I think it's a Gen Z movie in so far as it's a bunch of people in their 50s and 60s trying to like throw some, you know, candy at Gen Z and be like, it's gonna be okay. Not your bosses are not gonna, you know, alienate you and punish you, which I think is not the best lesson to take out of this entire world. I don't, there's something really intriguing about Miranda Priestly becoming an iconic movie character, but knowing deep. down that there's something quote unquote wrong about that character and it's a little like making a dirty Harry movie in 2026, but he doesn't use a gun, you know, like it kind of doesn't make sense to do that. I've been thinking a lot about to me, the original Delva Wars product is sort of, it's like the girl, the suitcase of the madman episode, which is a, you know, Don Draper and Peggy Olsen in a room kind of yelling at each other about how they work together, their relationship as, you know, collaborators, but also as boss and employee, it culminates with the very famous like that's what the money's for. But you know, Don Draper is, is the main character of madman, but he's definitely not someone that you want to be ultimately or do you exactly use something interesting about that. Yeah, completely destroyed man who makes a tremendous number of mistakes, but he's swaggering your handsome and brilliant at his work. Well, they're very similar archetypes. Yeah, there you go. And Devil Wars Prada came first, I agree that, and I don't think when the movie was originally released, that Miranda Priestly was the kind, the, you know, reference point that she is today. And I think honestly, Miranda Priestly, in the film, has paved the way for Anna Winter as like total rehabilitation since, since the book itself, because over time, people started to realize, wait a second, when I watched this movie, and he's kind of annoying, you know, and she's not taking her job very seriously. I don't know if you saw one of the many, many pieces that Vogue has done about this movie was finally interviewing the real Emily. There's been a lot of speculation over the years, which is the real Emily is a stylist named Leslie Fremar, which is a very successful stylist. And she, shout out to her for giving this interview, and she says, she says that she did in fact say, the quote of a million girls would kill for this job. And she said when she read it, that she recognized a lot, but from her own perspective, which was that she felt like Lauren Weisberger, it was very clear to her that Lauren Weisberger didn't want to be there and didn't want to be doing her job. And so she was like, I probably was mean, and I definitely was very stressed out, because it's a hard job. Yes. But I could tell this person didn't care. She even kind of resembles Emily Blonde. She does. And so the more, the more that people watch it and thought about it, and I think also it's like, you know, just an age thing, the older you get, you start to realize just how annoying Amy is and how much she has to learn. Well, you know, I, I revisited the original film last week, and I don't have the same level of affection for it that you do. I think it's a very entertaining movie. I do think that there's a series of moments in the movie where I'm just like, this is just complete poppycock. And like, maybe it is true to Lauren Weisberger's experience, but that, that joke can you spell about it is like, you would never, ever, ever get that job if you didn't know what that was. If you did, then actually Anna Winter was not as impressive a person as I thought she was. It just, it just makes no sense. It's illogical in that world, which is so cutthroat. Don't you feel though, maybe this is just getting older. Like every once in a while, don't you, like, interact with your own version of like, can you please spell Gabbana, you know, when you're working with people? And you're like, come on. I do, but they're, they're almost never proximate to power. That's true. That there's something about the people who get to be in that inner sanctum, who get access to that kind of a person where like, that person needs to be vetted. They really, they really need to be vetted. So the, the movie I find is like a little wobbly. The other thing that I find very wobbly about the movie though with credit to this new movie it follows through on some of it is everything in Andy's personal life. I find to be like ridiculously overdrawn and silly. And but it might inform some of like that core theme that I think you're, you've always very smartly talked about, which is it's like a movie about being good at your job, right? And how like sometimes as a young person, you can be really drawn into the world of your work at the expense of other things because you realize how important it is and how it makes you feel alive. And it gives you a sense of purpose. These are, that's what I. And you're ambitious too. Yes. And I completely relate to that. And I love that about the movie, but like the Adrian Grenier character and Rich Summer and Tracy Thompson's characters in the movie, I'm like, I don't, who, those are not real people to me. They're, they're like very poorly written characters. Well, Nate is very ambitious because he's, he spends a week learning how to make french fries, you know, which is actually an important skill. Too many frozen, pre-frozen french fries on the market these days. And as parents of young children, of course, we know how important that is. But Tracy Thompson's character comes back into this movie actually. And it's pretty credibly. I thought I was like, yeah, I buy that they stayed friends for 20 years despite the fact that she scolded her after Simon Baker gave her a kiss on the cheek some 20 years back past. Well, sure. That, I mean, that was weird. And I was, I was explaining to you, I haven't read the book in 15 years. And the book is just, okay, that I think that both, both films improve on it, but there's a whole side plot with that character getting in a car accident or something and having a lot of personal problems that the Andy character doesn't really, yeah, it doesn't really support. I guess in the book, they're, she's maybe merged with the Emily character. But the point is that Andy is like, not a particularly good friend that was translated in the movie into sledge shaving. Um, 2006 Amanda, did you relate to Andy? Did you feel close to Andy? I, so I saw this movie, this movie came out the summer after I graduated college. And I was attending the, the Columbia Publishing course. Do you know what that is? I do. Of course. Explain it to those. Yeah. So it's essentially, um, it's a six week sort of summer school slash, I mean, finishing school for a lack of a better word, um, program for people who are interested in book and magazine publishing. And it primarily focuses on book publishing. And I think a lot of book editors go there and, you know, and in addition to teaching you like how book publishing works, there's like a lot of networking and, um, I guess it's like a field team or something. Um, I was interested in magazines. And so I remember I, I left Columbia Publishing course early one day to go sit and see, uh, the Devil Wars Prada at 86th Street, AMC, I believe, because it was closest. Um, and then also as a part of the Columbia Publishing course, like, we got to meet Anna. Uh, so I remember deeply freaking out about what I was going to wear to meet Anna. Um, I wore, I wore heels. I wore an actual outfit. I, unlike Andy, I took it seriously and I knew the target that I was going for, but in the, I think the idea that, oh, you're supposed to be an assistant at one of these magazines, like an apprenticeship, pay your dues for a couple of years, and then you get to be the New York magazine journalist writing amazing pieces was how I understood what was coming my way. Um, so in that sense, yes, yes, I absolutely did. Do you relate to 2026, Andy, sex, maybe you should situate her. Sure. So it's funny, this movie is actually mostly about her, which is the other interesting choice because yeah, well, listen, Anne halfway looks amazing. Every single outfit is dynamite, including the one that I purchased off of paparazzi photos and felt really good about. It did make it into the final cut. Um, and is that the shiny blue dress? No, but you know what? I like one of this one of the canned dresses. Do you remember the gold dress that I bought in Vegas that I told you I was like, this morning I got up and bought a dress on the real real photo. No, you didn't see it, but I told you that this was happening very similar, but gold instead of blue, but shiny. Great. So I felt really good about that. Thanks. Yeah. Um, I'll be wearing that to the premiere of paper tigers. Okay. It's good. Someone from Neon, please get in touch. Anyway. Um, we're going to be okay. Don't worry. No, I know. But the movie starts with Anne Hathaway winning a journalism award. She works for a newspaper and then she's laid off while accepting the award. Her entire newspaper team is because hedge funds are similar, a very familiar similar structure to what happens in the real world and to journalists. And so she comes back to runway because she needs a job because runway needs some credibility after a bad journalism. But after a journalism scandal, they've written a flattering piece about a company that uses sweatshops. And so she's there to figure her life out and save journalism. I sort of have my life figured out and I don't think I'm going to be able to save journalism so I don't really identify with her that much. Okay. I think I admire her. What about her emotional core, uh, where she doesn't, she loves her work. More than her personal life can attach to anything and doesn't want a renovated building. Well, those are specific details about her life, but I think there's something very unusual about Andy, where she's exceedingly confident and also completely falling apart at the same time. Yeah. And I just, just having a chat with my wife last night about that and just I feel like I encounter a lot of women in my life at this stage of my life. You think I'm falling apart? That's, that's unkind, but that there's like, you under siege, but, but powering through is like, is a, is a, is a mark of just just in the very limited experience of my life. Yeah. And we were, and you know, I mean, I called having it all, I know, I know, I'm, I'm, I'm asking you this because I'm kind of wondering like, will the people who grew up on this movie who are very excited about this sequel, will, will the decision to actually make this movie very much about Andy's conflicts and her inability to kind of go to certain, do certain things, but also her, you know, she's clearly extraordinarily intelligent, right? And she's actually able to situate herself in this job that she has not a lot of training for an environment. we're like, how long did she really spend as Miranda's assistant film, three months, six months? How long are we supposed to believe that's a place? - Maybe a year. - Okay. And she's like, you know, still able to fall in love and is very comfortable and confident in these high and high market environments pretty quickly. - Right. - But also has like a real kind of daffiness. I think this was a great character for Anne Hathaway. So I've never really been like, well, it's Miranda's movie. I, of course, love Anne Hathaway's actor. But I was happy that we spent so much time with Andy. - Perfect balance for the Miranda character. And you need someone who they both have it together in different ways, and they both have skills that the other doesn't. And that's why both movies end with, you know, a moment of reconciliation between the two of them in the back of a town car, which at least in Europe is still available to Miranda. - Yes. - So I agree with you. I think that just when I watch this movie, I watch it for aspiration, not relatability. And so I'm drawn to the Miranda character, you know? And that's a little bit about how the first movie is also about fashion, which is the ultimate like aspirational business. And this is about Andy typing it straight into the CMS, which stresses me out. Are people still, are you typing into the CMS on sub-stack? You're not doing a Google Doc first? - I've done both thus far. The thing that not that anyone cares, but the thing with the CMS at sub-stack is like, once you just drop a YouTube link or podcast link in there, it just instantaneously populates, and there's something very gratifying about that. - Okay. - Like visually while you're acting. - So you understand the format. I mean, that's cool. But publishing into the CMS, listen, I'm blogging one, I'm like 1.0. You can't be doing that. - Look, I've been in many CMSs over the years. That's a content management system for those of you at home, which is effectively the tool used for publishing platforms. And we've actually circled back to the ease of use of a blogger, circa 2006. So I enjoy that about it. But this movie is so specific about things like that. It is like no one knows what a CMS is. You know, 0.01% of the population has to pet me. - Well, arguably like an entire generation of Tumblr kids knows what a CMS is because Tumblr was a CMS. - Yes, they have certainly been inside of publishing platforms, but they don't call it that. - Anyway, I do know what social pins are though. So I'm Miranda. - What does a social pin? - You don't know what a social, when you pin a post to the top of your ears. - Okay, that's just called a social pin. I mean, of course I do that. I just didn't know it had a title. - Okay. - We're on the glacier now. - One thing that you mentioned is that the first film did not have a lot of participation from the fashion community. And this film has a lot of participation clearly from the end from the fashion community. - Yeah. - Why do you think that is? Does the movie benefit in a meaningful way from that at all? - Well, I think the fashion community and Vogue are at this point kind of different beasts. There are a tremendous number of cameos of people who just want to be in the movie. Some of them, fashion-related, Mark Jacobs, Don DeTella Versace, Law Roach, Heidi Klum, Naomi Campbell. The New York Times critic Vanessa Friedman is both name-checked and then in profile. - Huge look. - And then, you know, just people, like Carl Anthony Towns. - Love to see him, my guy. - Sarah Swisher, and then the moment where I actually started physically hitting you in the middle of the screening, Tina Brown. My girl Tina is in Devil Wars Prada too. And that's when I was really just like, I don't know what I'm gonna do right now. I don't know how I'm gonna handle this. - That was Cap catching the hammer for you. You freaked the fuck out. - But I was also like, this is weird that things are so, the things in my mind are now on the screen. And I'm pretty uncomfortable about it. - Okay. - Have you ever met Aileen Brush McKenna? I've wondered that. - No, I've never met her. - Okay. - But I've been big admirer, Morning Glory Forever. Tina wrote a great sub-stack about the experience of being on the cameo, which had great details, including that. - You subscribed to her sub-stack? - Excuse me, day one subscriber to Tina Brown's sub-stack Fresh Hell. Everybody get involved. - Just asking. - It's wonderful. Listen, Tina forever. - Okay, all right, simmer down. - But I think some of the great details included that there wasn't enough food on the set. So then Kara Swisher organized like a group delivery order. - And also they door dashed to a Hampton's estate? - I believe so. I mean, the company in question was not named, but Kara Swisher did organize the order. - What do you think of Jersey Mike's? - Probably, yeah. And then also the Tina provided her own outfit, but the accessories were provided by the film in the costume department. - Okay. - She wasn't given any lines, unfortunately. - She says, she does talk about that. She says that she did her line so many times and was so bad at it. She was like, I understand why I'm silent. - Makes sense, makes sense. - Because I just, I couldn't do it. - Acting is very hard. - She also said that she was seated next to Carl Anthony Towns at the fake dinner and that she did not know who he was. And then learned a lot about athletes' lives and how they can be traded at any moment. - Oh my. - It's really funny. - And then she just learned that. - She just learned. - She employed Brian Curtis for years. That's so surprising. - Yeah, well, I don't, I think they were talking about other things. - That's probably true. First of all, shout out to Kat. He's been having a great series. Hopefully the Knicks triumph over the Hawks before. - He's on the Knicks now. - Kat, yeah, he's been on the Knicks for years. - I didn't miss his third season with the Knicks. - Well, I thought he was great in this. I was happy to see him. - Yeah, he just recently went on a double date with your boy Timothy Chalamey and Kylie Jenner and his girlfriend Jordan Woods. - Oh, really? - Yeah, just reading about this. - Just reading about this. - After the game. - It's dressing me out. - Well, either way, it stresses me out how often professional athletes are just like out late. Even though the next day they need to use, you know, they need to be in fit physical condition. Yeah, it does. - Even the way he's been performing in this series, I don't want to, I don't want to chase it. - I don't want to hide to know. But it was nice to see him. It was nice. You know, Jenna Bush Hager was in this movie. There were a ton of people who got like one line. - Right. - And it similarly has that comic book movie feel of like all your faves. - Yeah. - They're all together at this one fun party. It felt a little cheap to me though, you know, in the way that these things often feel cheap. - Like, I agree. And it was a real like, now this is a sequel. We gotta do something. Everyone wants to be a part of this and we'll farm it out. I think that the cheapest part of it is that there's a Lady Gaga performance as well as a cameo in the, at the event that they host in Milan that is sort of like, it's, I guess it's akin to an Italian Met Ball. - Mm-hmm. - And which does often have a pop star major performance. I'm sure Lady Gaga has been the chair of the Met Ball at least once. And. - What does one do as the chair? - You put your name on a lot of things and then you get photographed. Can I tell you who two of the chairs of the upcoming Met Ball, which is on Monday, the first day in May, are? - Sure. - They are Jeff Bezos and Lauren Sanchez. - Oh, interesting. - So that is pretty interesting given the portrayal of Jeff Bezos or the Jeff Bezos S character in this movie. - We, you know, we're in full spoiler territory here, but there is a kind of Lauren Sanchez S character in the movie as well. And it's a character we know. - Yes. Spoiler, I guess. Oh, yes, her name is Emily. Played by Emily Blunt, who now is an executive at Dior. And Dior features prominently. She is shown chastising Miranda Priestly for the legitimately bad journalism and then extracting the price of several free ad pages and a feature story about the OpStore opening, which I really wonder how everyone at Dior and Louis Vuitton, LVMH, feels? - Yeah, let me ask you this. - Yeah. - All know her. Does that happen in real life? - I don't know if it happens at that level. I know this. - That is something that was often rumored. - Yes. - When I was working at Conda and asked across many publications, but certainly never confirmed 'cause it's a decision that's made at the absolute highest level. - Sure. I mean, no one ever told me, yeah, this ad page was free. I, you know, we all know that advertisers have to be featured in fashion spreads in certain ways. And I think the companies have had like an increasing amount of say there's now invoked at least what's called a full look commitment, which is that you can't mix and match as they do in that famous Cerulean speech in the first episode. You have to wear head to toe Dior or Prada or et cetera, even in an editorial. I don't, I don't know whether that happens specifically. I feel pretty confident that LVMH, the conglomerate that owns Dior is not thrilled about the portrayal of anything. And there's also a new, very cool, very movie invested designer Jonathan Anderson, who has done the costumes for some Luca Guadagnini movies, who now runs Dior. Wondering how he's feeling about that. Seems like that was all, this was all inked and scripted before he came on board. But yes, so Emily in addition to being a corporate fashion person is now also dating the Jeff Bezos character and helps Andy plot a takeover of, a runway, which Andy thinks is going to be to protect Miranda and then it turns out to be so that Emily, the Emily Blunt character can be in charge of runway. So, but there, she dresses not, she wears more Dior, but she dresses not unlike Lauren Sanchez does and is portrayed in a similar way. I mean, they even talk about how the Jeff Bezos character, I can't remember his act. actual name has had it like a real physical transformation and all of his workouts, it's really, really very specific. And in the meantime, Vogue the magazine is going to have them like on the steps that they're quote unquote, biggest night of the year on Monday. I wonder if there will be any phone calls. Vogue's decision to embrace this is fascinating to me and makes sense and is just really about how Vogue and Conan asked like have no power anymore. And I think that so there's a new American editor Chloe Mal who's been doing a lot of this work and I think she's been very savvy and just knows that it will be a big thing and that it will kind of up the profile of Vogue at a time when it really needs that. But it's a real like balance of powers has shifted situation. Yeah. Which the movie then confirms, which is what's so fascinating. It's a really unique document of the real life echoing the movie, echoing the real life. The other interesting thing about that power dynamic is that it's certainly feeling this movie is going to be a huge hit and the screening that we went to was quite interesting. It was like it was barbenheimer for cool moms, you know, like there were more, more ladies in that screening than I can recall in any press screening in Los Angeles ever. Correct. Also, significantly more stylish people in that screening. I don't know what you can talk about it in some detail. A lot of people wearing red, which has, you know, been established as the signature color of the press tour. And it's what in halfway and Meryl Streep and then Emily Blonde and Stanley Tucci when they joined have been wearing on this really extended. And to me, Barbie Esque press tour, Margot Robbie was on the road for weeks in various Barbie inspired outfits, which I thought was very clever and playing to an audience that is not usually marketed to in movies, but that them both films really deliver to. So they did a lot. We had a lot of people in red. Lots of good bags. I think bags are not dead. There's that something that's been discussed. Yeah, there is. There is or dead. Yeah, that people don't want, you know, the fancy like, ooh, the new Mark Jacobs. That's a double worst product one reference that you either need a laptop bag or a tiny bag. And I have the other way on post laptop and I have a new normal bag that I like so sitting in front of a laptop. Yeah, but I just, that's, that's, well, that's where I'm here. Okay. Be careful when you say your post something when you are using that thing actively. State of mind. Yeah. I'd love to be post laptop. Unfortunately, there were not a lot of laptop bags at this screening. There were a lot of bad bags. No. Well, thankfully no one was using their laptop during the screening. I, um, I thought that was quite fascinating. It felt like there was maybe some more influencer invites, um, you know, shout out to the AMC Burbank 16, my true, my one true home. Uh, I thought it was indicative of the fact that there's more opportunity to do this kind of thing for this audience and then not every movie is the devil worst product. It doesn't loom as large as most movies don't loom as large as that movie does. And it's not as marketable. Yeah. Are you aware of all the tie-ins? Like are you? No. But I mean, that makes sense. Of course, it makes sense. It's like Star Wars for, for, for professional women, but it is a little surprising when to suddenly be on the other side of it. And, you know, Julia Litman was talking about how she was on the GE website because she needs a new appliance. And there was a devil worst product GE. She was, she was shopping for an appliance from GE's website. I think she was just looking at the options. And some of the options were featured in the devil worst product too, which was noted on the website. Cool. And there is like a very literal, like, 30 rock vibe to that, but it also makes sense. Also, as soon as she said that, I was like, oh, I know where the appliances were. They were in the, the flip of the, you know, the new apartment. And it wasn't totally tacky the way it was included. Let's talk about that strain of the story. Colin from accounts. That's Colin from accounts. I've not seen that show. I know that's a show, but I haven't seen that show. Who is that person? So, Colin from accounts is the name that I don't know his actual name. I'm scrolling. Where is it? Let's go. Pratric Bramal, aka Colin from accounts. Who is the contractor who renovated a beautiful building on Henry Street, the corner of Henry and Amity. I know because they were filming there when I was there visiting my sister-in-law, Ruthie last summer. And they showed knock some of their cameras. They were very nice. Thank you to everyone in the devil worst product too, said. So, he's renovated this building and Andy goes to see it because she has enough resources to buy a luxury building despite being an out-of-work newspaper journalist, turned features editor at Runway, which just 20 years later, just being a features editor, that's tough. In the era of title inflation. Let's not scold Andy Sachs, please. Okay. I want more for her. She's a hard engine. She's a hard engine journalist who's telling real stories in the real world. Yeah. I'm just saying. That's tough for her. So, she goes to-- How high up on the mass head do you think she was at Runway when she got that gig? What do you mean? Like, oh, how high up is features editor? Yeah. So, as I haven't looked at Vogue's mass head in a while, but I do think that I guess features come before, well, I don't know. Maybe they do it. I don't know where it is. Not that hard. Maybe it's a side-by-side situation where the story journalist is over here and the fashion team is over here. No, it's always been that the fashion team is just so much bigger. Yeah. And then the beauty team, and then you've got all the online stuff. I assume that they've renovated this over time. But she's not in the top grouping, you know? Like with the editor and chief or global content, whatever, creative director, so-and-so. And I just think 20 years later, I want more for her. Anyways, she can afford this apartment, so she goes to see it. She says that she likes old things instead of new things in the world's most obvious metaphor. And she says it directly to the contractor himself, but it counts as a meet-cute. And so they start a very innocuous relationship that is just fine until she yells at him for no reason and goes to Milan. Okay. I guess. Did you want more for Andy's life in this movie? Well, I saw paparazzi photos of her filming outside Long Island Bar, which is two blocks from the building in question and a great Brooklyn establishment. And I wanted Long Island Bar in the film and it was cut. And I assume she went there with this guy calling for me counts what was his real name in the movie. Couldn't tell you. Sure. Okay. Good luck to him. Yeah. Sure. He seemed nice. Yeah. I don't care about her personal life. You do. What did you want for her? I wanted her to realize all her hopes and dreams. You know, I'm rooting for her. Do you think she is? Nope. Nope. I don't think so. Okay. What? I think she was fired from a dream job because an industry collapsed and she was drug-gooned for financial and quieted personal ambition reasons to return to her origin story and try to make good on it. She was very happy to have some success in that space and reconnect with some people. But by the same token, the movie is a slightly cynical about, it's kind of the inverse of the original where the original is like, goodbye to all that. What I don't need are these, you know, these, there's a cool trauma of lifestyle to feel like a real person. And I assume that that's kind of the core theme of the book as a person, as an author who abandoned that space to go pursue what she really wanted to do. But the movie is sort of like this new movie is like, actually, it is kind of great to be at the seat of power and to look beautiful and to be styled just so. But are they at the seat of power by the end? Close enough. I mean. Or are they working together? Is it a, it's more of like a found family movie, which is silly, but they're all. This is actually your Guardians of the Galaxy. We're all like there together at the end and she even has this lunch with Emily, where Emily is like, I really wanted to be friends, which what? That's the second biggest in a movie. It's just a completely false note. Completely false. No. I love Emily Bluntosa. I was like, I'll roll with this. But not not a real. Yeah. And it's tough that it's so hard to get her in the same frame as all of these people, which is always a sequel problem, right? Because characters would have moved on. But yeah, it didn't make sense, but it does feel like the movie, and it's probably just because of that like sequel mandate that we have to get them all back together, that the reason we want to get them back together is because they all want to be together, you know? Can Andy just try to go work at the New York Times or the Atlantic? Like, why are we pretending like it makes any sense for her to go work at Vogue? I, you're right. But even that is revealed as it's revealed later in the movie that it was Stanley Tucci's character Nigel, who suggested that she be hired because she's always been his number one. And that's really meaningful to her. So I've spoken to one another in 20 years. I don't think so. Let's make her listen. And also unrealistic. So I agree with you, but the movie really does seem to, this is why I'm like, it's kind of a Gen Z movie. It's about there. It's all forcing them together to be like, we love each other. Okay. Gen Z loves when you speak for them. I've learned that that's something they really enjoy. This episode is brought to you by Apple and AT&T. Scroll along enough and you'll hear it all, Miracle Diets, Fitness Trends, you name it. But with iPhone and Apple Watch, you get meaningful insights from a very trusted source, your body. Back sleep quality, cardio fitness and more, then unpack all the information and the health app on iPhone to get a picture of your overall health. These health insights are developed with clinical experts from start to finish. Find out more at apple.com/health. Apple Watch is not a medical device and should not be used as a substitute for professional medical advice. - Any other thoughts? Do you wanna make any box office predictions for this movie? - Oh no, I wanna do things that I learned about the devil or is probably universe, that I didn't know. - Fire away. - Number one, Miranda drinks Rosé, which it does, but I'm not sure I expected to see a scene of Miranda priestly in the Hamptons and they've recreated Anna Wentworth's "Mastic Estate" as pretty faithfully according to at least photographs that I've seen were in deep cut territory here. And so she's just in the kitchen pouring Rosé and telling Andy about her ambitions. Two things I never really expected to see happen. Also, in that scene, the third false note of the movie, she's wearing Pumas. - Okay. - No. - I thought you wrote down Stan Smith's was it actually Pumas? - Yeah, I investigated it. And because it had the little blue back on the, but they were flatter and smaller. So I think they're Pumas. - Okay. - It went pretty quickly. - If they were Stan Smith's, would you feel differently? - But they weren't as chunky as Stan Smith's, they have like the very, very narrow profile. - That doesn't answer my question. If they were Stan Smith's, would you feel differently? - I don't really feel that Miranda is wearing sneakers to host 20 to 30 luminaries for a lobster lunch in the Hamptons. I personally think that there would be a sandal. - Okay. - Probably an Hermes sandal, anyway. And as our friend Molly, who came to the screen with us, turned to me and said, "I guess we all have to wear ties now." - That was funny. - Yeah, which I thought was a really great observation by Molly, thank you for coming. Also, to speak to the event of it all, Molly turned down attending, not turned down, but she was supposed to go see Devil Wars Prada too. I believe with a book club and was already coming to see it with me. I have another friend who's like, well, I have tickets at this time. There's a real, people are making plans, reservation group quality to this movie that I have not seen since Barbie. So to your point, I don't think it's going to be Barbie big but I think it's going to be really big. - What does that look like to you? Have you looked at the tracking? - I know that it's tracking for 180 million globally on the opening weekend. - Okay, that's quite good. - That's quite good. I mean, what numbers do you want? Do you want what I think to domestic opening weekend? - I guess I'd be curious to know where this movie lands. I didn't really do like a leg of sequels comp thing here, but what are some recent ones? Blade Runner 2049, Mad Max Fury Road and Furiosa. We've got the social reckoning coming out later this year. So obviously something that's going to be happening more and more, where I think especially for grownups, but this is a way to kind of feed a quasi prestigious crowd but also serve-- - Right. - You know, just that childlike brain of, I know what that is, I like that. So I'm kind of, I'm quite fascinated by how this movie does. - I think it'll also have pretty broad international appeal because of the world of fashion and taking place in Europe. - Yes, and because I think these are high profile characters and they've also, I mean, they have been serving it everywhere. It has been a very international strategy, smartly, I think. - Okay, will it cross $500 million worldwide? I would make it pretty damn big. - Maybe? - Okay. - Kind of fascinating. So I mean, this dovetails into the conversation, I want to have the mile and kicks. But it is something that I have been thinking about quite a bit. Two years back when the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles movie came out, the animated movie that Seth Rogen and Evan Goldberg produced, they wrote this long emotional letter box review about it coming for us, so to speak. You know, these remnants of our youth kind of starting to echo deeply in ways that are seem cynical, but are also very personal. Like that animated Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles movie had a couple of musical cues, a couple of gags in it that felt like it was really scratching something very personal. It seems silly, but you very eloquently illuminated for an hour all of the ways in which this movie kind of tapped into or failed to tap into certain aspects of your personality and your experiences as a person or how you aspire to things and how that maybe let you down over time. And we're in this rich moment because of our age and because of the state of the movie business, where like this is going to keep happening, we're going to keep having feelings like this. There are plenty of movies over the years where you see something personal happen to a character and you connect to it. Like I vividly recall with ease the dinner table sequence in boyhood where they're seated with their new stepfather or mom's boyfriend and I'm like, that's just like a chilling movie moment for me to watch that and to feel that and to think about the characters at that table. But this is different. This is like there's something mechanized about this that also still kind of gratifies us and I'm trying to get my arms around the feeling. - Do you mean mechanized in the sense that it is so, I mean, it is so big and broad and certainly corporate and the number of tie-ins and they made a fake runway magazine that they've been handing out at Cinemacon and oh, it's here, yes, hello, hello, Emily Charlton. And at the screenings and respectfully, it's not a very good magazine. They've done tie-in articles, the Lucy Luke character is in there, the ads that are inspired by the original memes are much better than the kind of spawn-con features that they've done to tie into the movie. But yeah, it does have like a fake, orchestrated quality to it, which has been the source of most of my anxiety about this movie. I gotta be honest, I feel fine on this one. I mean, it's a little strange and with respect to GE, I'm not gonna go buy a new appliance. I don't need a new appliance right now. And most of the tie-ins and the merch and the marketing stuff is just has not really been for me, but the fact that it's considered valuable enough to spend all that time on it. And it does mean that more time and money was spent on the thing itself. And so I get to have a fun time watching something as opposed to that money and time and all that marketing stuff being spent on a bunch of things I don't care about. - Right. - It's a new sensation, but I'm okay. If it were really bad, I would obviously feel differently, but it's not. - Yeah, it's not really bad. It is a little bit duplicative at times and it also is a little bit of a downer at times, but it's very watchable and entertaining in a way that you don't usually expect from a movie like this. I think this movie has a kind of action figures quality for you and a lot of the things that you enjoy where he's popping up. And most of the movies that I'm referring to are about totems of my youth. Comic book characters in June will have masters of the universe and my own kind of personal, I don't know about anxiety, but just kind of like that personal cringe of like, "Oh, this is a thing I loved." And now it's being made for people 40 years later. There's something very odd about that sensation. But this movie, "Mile and Kicks," to me is probably the closest that I'll get to the feeling that you have with the Devil Wars product, where Chandler Lovac wrote and directed at this movie that is clearly very autobiographical about her experience working in the world of music journalism and working for music magazines. Like me, she worked for Spin for a period of time. She went back to Canada and worked for local music magazines and reviewed records. And her character in this film, played by Barbie Ferreira, attempts of 33 in a third book. I never wrote one of those, but I certainly thought about it. And I certainly thought it was important to write one. - Who would you have wanted to do? - Well, that's a generous question. I think probably check your head by B.C. Boys. I think they would have been interesting. - They have not here, so we can talk about it for forever. - I know what a shameful moment that was. There's any number of interesting albums I would have liked to have spent time on. But this movie is like, "It's Francis Hommie. It's almost famous." It's a very personal coming-of-age story about a young woman trying to find love, trying to be professionally successful, obsessed with music, obsessed with the culture of music. But then the closer you get to it, the more you realize that the people that are inside of that world can be kind of shitty, can take advantage of you, can treat you poorly. I didn't have the exact same experiences that the Barbie Ferreira character had, about obviously not a woman. But to see music journalism circa 2011. And like, kind of like the shit hole career that that was, you know, the way that you were paid for things, the things that you got so excited about, getting free CDs, going to go to a show. At the time I was having the time of my life. I wasn't having, I made all my best friends during that period of my life. I, to this day, love music and think about it all the time. But it also shows just kind of like how dingy all that is and how it's the opposite of the devilish product. - Yeah. - Where there's no glamour. - True, yes. And you find yourself just standing around cubicles with groups of men trying to get a word in edgewise. And that doesn't happen. I saw a lot of myself in this movie, even though I never worked specifically at music magazines. I worked at various websites and more general interest magazines, but you know, I knew, that's when I met all of you guys, was kind of at the tail end of that time when you were growing up. And it's, it was incredibly familiar from the perspective of being the young woman who doesn't have things figured out in this world and has a lot of interest, but her interests are similar, but not the same as all the men. She gives a great speech at the end that really, really spoke to young and old Amanda, just to, you know, the ways in which you have to feign interest in what's considered, quote, unquote, cool. And then you have all these other things on the side that, you know, basically like aren't acceptable for the canon. But just true, it's Devil Wars Prada being one of them. So, you know, it's a full circle moment. And now this is Devil Wars Prada's finally being accepted even though it's for girl stuff. Thought it was very, very charming. Is there really not a 33 and a third on a, on Jagged Little Pill? - I don't know. I haven't checked up. - I just googled and I can't find it. - Yeah, that is the, the Atlanta's Morse at Album is the one that Barbie Ferrier's character wants to write and plans to write and then things happen along the way. I think, I, I had very similar experiences. I'm not sure how much I like feigned my taste per se, but I certainly felt very intimidated in those circles. In 2000 and the summer of '03, I was an intern at spin. And that was a very, to me, a very hallowed period of time at that magazine because of all the people that worked there. Many of whom people know, you know, Chuck Closterman was working there at the time. Slyam Michael was the editor-in-chief. Karen Gans, who's at the New York Times now. Alex Papadimus, like David Itzkov, like John Dolan, Charles Aaron, who I idolized, like a ton of magazine writers and editors who knew, I thought everything about everything and whose taste was superlative. And I was really, really intimidated. And I'm really, I have no shortage of ego, but I really didn't know how to talk to, I was afraid to talk to those people. And I wish I had spent more time talking to them. It's like very, I always think of it as very fortunate that later in life I got to be friends with Chuck and got to know him because I just loved his writing so much in the way that he thought about things. But I completely related to the experience that that character is having in that way. And that sense of like, how do I contribute in any way that makes me useful, which is such an insecure feeling? But it's a very real feeling when you're in these scenarios and you're a young person and you don't know if you totally have anything to add. And then you get older and you do a couple of things for yourself that you feel happy about and you kind of like shed a lot of that anxiety. So it was really interesting to talk to Chandler so somebody clearly has like figured out who she wants to be or at least in part like what she wants to be doing with her time. And it's not afraid to just say like, I just said out loud that I like things I didn't like. And you know, there's a certain modicum of bravery and honesty about doing that that I really appreciated. - There is also a romantic subplot in this one that unlike Devil Wars product too is perfectly handled and recognizable and like archetypal in a way but also specific and funny and you're rooting for it to resolve in the right way. I really, really dug this, it was very torn by it. - Stanley Simons plays the lead singer of the fictionalized Canadian indie band. And you know, I guess this is around the time of like clap your hands say yeah, maybe like that era of indie pop rock and that guy is giving one of the most accurate performances I've ever seen that is a dude I knew. - It is so funny. - That is a guy who is in bands that I covered. And he's really, really, really funny. The other thing too, I mentioned this in the physical media high counsel episode that is coming later this month. But Julia Gareppi, the actress from Red Rooms is in this playing a completely different person and I was like, what the fuck is that? She can also be like this. She's kind of doing a Julie Delpy kind of quality to her character that I really enjoyed. I really like this movie. You know, I really enjoyed roommates as well. I don't know if you got a chance to see that. - I didn't see this yet. - Okay, this is the other movie that Chandler directed, which is Star's Sadie Sandler, Adam Sandler's daughter and Chloe East from the Fable Mins and Heretic, who I've been actress I have stock in. Very goofy happy Madison movie, just told with female characters instead of older male characters, about two girls who become roommates at college and seem like they're gonna be best friends forever and then maybe clearly they're not. - Right. - What happens from there? - That's very enjoyable. And it was like really cool hearing Chandler talk about the ways in which she got the opportunity to do that and the relationship that she now has with Adam Sandler from all people. So I hope people check that out. Very quickly, the state of music criticism. - Yeah, good, bad. Thumbs up, thumbs down. - No idea. - Where are you? - No, I haven't been reading a lot of it. I respect people who do it. - Yeah. - It's some of the hardest, easy work you can do. - Okay. - I think it's quite hard. It was never on my aspiration board, you know? - It's pretty tricky. I'm relieved to not be thinking about it too much. - You think I should write about music in the newsletter? - I think you should write about whatever you want to write about. - Are you glad to be writing again? That's the other way in which I don't relate to Annie. She's just like up all the time writing and I was like, no, no, no. - Well, I do love that feeling. - Not for me. - I do, I'm happy for you. - I, it's so hard, which it sounds like the whiniest thing everyone writers talk about this because it's like, well, don't do it. If you don't want to do it, don't do it. - It's quite literally how I feel. - And I understand that. But there is something specifically, even with this new experience that I'm having, where when something is published, it's tremendously gratifying in a way that this can't be, in a way that other stuff I do professionally can't be. So I'm liking that part of it. - I'm glad. - Which is kind of how I feel. - Yeah. - You know, when I was writing in 2006. - I need you to be doing more things that you feel happy and gratified by. And, you know, less threatening to move to mosquito coast. So let's just get to a place where we're enjoying while we're doing it. - Part of the mosquito coast thinking is like, this is something I can do from the mosquito coast. - Okay. - You know what I mean? I don't need anything else to do that. - Do they show movies with the regularity that you-- - Maybe not, but I have five thousand movies at home. - Okay. Right. - Have you considered that? - You're going to get them, well, I can't even coming up soon on the high council, some AV guy insights to be shared. - Wow, no spoilers. Okay. Let's go to my conversation now with Chandler LeVac. (upbeat music) The very first time Chandler LeVac is here with not one, but two feature films. We're going to talk about both of them, but I watched Mile and Kicks first because I am also a recovering music journalist. And this is a very interesting, sometimes very sad vocation. And I think you captured some of the sadness in that vocation in your film. - Just tell me a little bit about why you pursued that line of work before you started becoming a film director. - Yeah, I mean, you were kind of my ideal audience for the movie. I was like, what is Chandler LeVac? Is he going to think of this film? And then you just posted a letter box, one word uncanny. - Well, it is. I mean, it is like eerily accurate. Both in terms of, I think, the perspective of the characters, the scene, and just the general angst in the relationships. Like, I thought you got all that stuff so right. - Yeah, 'cause I think you were writing for spin when I was interning there under the great Charles Arian. - Yes. - And kind of my earliest mentors. - God, the coolest person. - Just the smartest guy ever. - A ball time and great writer. And so, yeah, I certainly like idolized you when Chuck Kosterman and all the, the roster. - Don't put me in that league, please. I was a lowly 20-something back then. - Maybe Riley, and there's so many great writers, Karen Gans. - You have nice tributes to various music writers in your film, actually. - Yeah. - I love that. - Yeah, I mean, other than almost famous, I don't think it's a profession that gets memorialized in cinema that much. Probably because it's something that seems glamorous, but it's actually just you kind of like, hunched over a laptop looking despondent, like seeing if your editor will acknowledge your invoice that you have been asking for for a month and a half. And, you know, I think I imprinted on almost famous when I was 15. And I just like, it's like, how do I live in the movie forever? Okay, well, I'll just become the main character. And so, as soon as I, and then it was at the same time that I was like, I saw the strokes on the cover of Spin Magazine in Blockbuster. And I was like, how, how is this on the cover of magazine? Like, I thought I only knew about the spin. And so, I bought the magazine and there was a huge excerpt from Chuck Kosterman's book, Sex Drugs of Coco Puffs. And so, I immediately got that book. And then I was like, I want to be a pop culture critic. Like, I didn't even know this was a job that existed, but like, this is what I want to be. And so, I emailed Chuck and I was like, I read your book and it completely changed my life. How do I like have your job? And he was like, instead of being like, leave me alone. He was like, well, you should start writing for your school newspaper. And he said this really beautiful thing that I'll never forget that was like, and also like, don't worry about what's cool. Like, everyone thinks that like, this was 2005. So, everyone thinks that like, Paul Banks from Interpol is like, the arbiter of cool right now, but like journalism isn't about telling people what's cool, it's just about like, saying what you like. It's all about your own critical taste in your authority. And so, that really like galvanized me and kind of set me on this path where I'm like 16 reading, like, mystery train in the back room of Blackbuster while like eating a piece of sub and just getting obsessed with popular culture. And then, yeah, I followed Chuck Kosterman's book, advice and immediately started writing from my school newspaper, The It Is Herald. And by the time we met like two years later, I was like an intern at spin. So we have eerily similar paths. Yes. Joker origin story sort sort of. Yeah. I mean, I was on Chuck's desk as an intern at spin in '03. Wow. When he was out reporting what became killing yourself to live his book. Oh, yeah, that's crazy. So I never interacted with him at that time. He's no good friend of mine. But at the time, I also really, really looked up to him. And he really, I really loved what he was doing in the way that he was kind of like colliding pop culture. Yeah. The thing that you just said, the advice that he gave you, that's so resonant because I feel like it took me a long time and really actually achieved that, like get comfortable with my own taste and talk about what I thought was good and why I thought it was good. And I feel like I've read you talk about this a little bit around this film. And in general, this like anxiety of wanting to have like the right opinion. And then getting comfortable with what you feel like is the real opinion. And I feel like Barbie's character in the film too does a really good job of sort of like knowing when it's time to try to fit in. But then also having this like voice inside of her. Like, here's what I really like. And here's who I really am. I want to hear you talk about that a little bit. Yeah. I mean, the movie is kind of about taste and like how much I think the canon of like movies and music were kind of shaped by my male colleagues who were like men in their 40s in like cold steady t-shirt. And me at the time when I was like literally 21 years old, you know, as a staff writer for this this all weekly in Toronto, like thinking that I was their peer. And like now realizing now that I'm like almost the same age as those guys, like, no, I was like a dog that could like walk on its own legs that had like cute fun opinions about like, I don't know, a pair of boo or something. And I didn't know the bands they were talking about. And I didn't care about bellotar movies. But like, I felt like if I learned all the right like nouns and verbs, then then they would they would kind of welcome me into their inner circle. Yeah, it's like a secret society a little bit where you want to feel like you're of weird guys and fedores. Yeah. And why did we look up to them so much? I don't know. I know some of them are like people that I really care about. But some of them too. I was like, why did I why was I interested in that person's opinion in any way when they don't we didn't actually didn't have that much in common even though we were pursuing theoretically the same thing. And it seems like that's you're kind of like writing through that idea too. Totally. I mean, I remember Chuck saying something. I don't remember where, but he said something about how like all criticism is autobiographed autobiography ultimately. And how like when you have an opinion about an album or a movie, it's like you are, you know, asserting like how that relates to you at that definite point in your life. And I think because I was like a really messy woman in my like early 20s, I was a lot of the time like using the passion pit CD to talk about the like 30 year old stand-up comedian who had just broken up with me for the fourth time. It was like this weird venting tool or something or mechanism. And you know both being kind of like rewarded for that by my editors, but then also kind of scolded for like at what point did my writing feel too like feminine or self-indulgent. And so it made me feel like extremely confused. It's not always the most lucrative line of work. You get paid in CDs sometimes. Yeah, which I love. Just as I love being paid in film screenings now. But so can you just tell me like how you made the pivot out, like how you decided to pursue filmmaking and maybe not spend your time as a cultural critic. Yeah, I mean, I think it was really getting like go from the all weekly and then living in Montreal for the summer in 2011. It was kind of like the first choice I ever made kind of that wasn't like a professional decision. You know, I've been this like young professional for so long since I was 18 like writing for the village voice and spin and you know always with my little like no pad at the back of the show like waiting to interview Sharon Jones with my dad there and then she'd be like, do you want to smoke weed and I'd be like, I can't my dad's. Even though my dad probably would've been cool with it. I'm like rushing back to the office to you know write the story at three in the morning before my deadline. Like it was just how I lived my life for like eight years and everything else like became secondary to that. And then when I moved to Montreal in 2011, it was like the first time that I actually realized that I was like a young person and suddenly got immersed in this incredible scene of these like underground you know shows it like DIY warehouses where like the birth of all of these incredible bands like Mac tomorrow and Grimes and tops were just starting. And I was like, oh wow, like I can have friends that are the same age as me. I can like party all night and I don't have to like write an article about it. I can just like experience things. So how do you go beyond that until like writing I love movies and or like movies and I you know want to make movies professionally? I think it was just like something I'd repressed for so long. And it was really kind of I think a collision of seeing Lena Dunham make girls and watching that like it was kind of my film school and realizing it was the first time that I was the same age as someone who was making art on such a public stage and her voice and like tone as a filmmaker. I like so desperately connected to. And then I think um, Greta Gerwig also making Ladybird. I would like watch the promotional video of her like being like, no kisser, kissful. And I just would like weep accidentally and I didn't know why. And so I think it kind of felt like I think I've said this before, but the way that like other women know they're ready to have a baby. Like I was just like I need to make a coming-age film. Like it's like my biological clock is like ticking. And so um, you know, I've gone to film school at the University of Toronto, but I just like had completely redirected my focus and like dropped out of school. And then I had my last class to graduate. It was this screenwriting class that was taught by Patricia Rosema who's a legendary Canadian director made this incredible movie. I've heard them remade singing. That's like was one of the maybe the first female Canadian film to ever go to Cannes. And Sammy Chellis who ended up writing like all the best madman at the show. It's like the suitcase. And it's just like a total hero of mine. And so they, yeah, for the class, you had to write a feature screenplay. And I think my years of like as you can probably relate to like writing profiles about people and kind of investigative features. Like that's sort of the backbone, I think, for a lot of screenwriting. You know, you get 10 minutes with someone and you have to tell the entire story of their life based on like a, you know, 10 minute call in like conversation at TIFF in like a conference room or something. Not at many times. Yeah. I always feel bad. I'm like, this is not accurate, but this is all you've given me. So how do I do my best with it? Army hammer. Let's go. Yeah. I read you had an interesting chat with him. Yeah. Yeah. I remained intact. You're safe. You're safe now. But, but yeah, it was just, I think it just was the first thing that like made sense for my brain. And I totally fell in love with screenwriting and just the structure of it and stuff. And then after that, they said I should apply to the Canadian Film Center, which is Norman Jewish since film school kind of like what AFI is in the States. Okay. And then, yeah, it was the first time I like ever saw a camera. And I wrote three scripts that got, you know, immediately produced and I got to be involved in all the sort of casting conversations and beyond set for it. And I think I was so like bossy and opinionated about stuff that it was clear that I was kind of like, I was like, oh, I should be a director because I have like too many thoughts about stuff. What year was this? Um, 2012. Okay. And. And then I started making music videos after that. So that was kind of like really the origin for this incredible punk band pup. Yes. With Jeremy Schellenrio, who was someone I met at the CFC. And we were dating at the time, he's in the Edgers program. So we kind of came together and made like eight or 10 music videos. Amazing. But at the same time, I felt like I just could never made anything that was like, honestly, my true voice. So I've had, you know, Sophie was on the show recently. And Matt was on the show earlier this year. And I'm really interested in like how you can raise funds to make movies in Canada. And if that's specifically how you've been pursuing it, I suspect roommates was a little bit different, but at least for your first two features, like, can you just kind of talk me through a little bit how that works and how you are able to accomplish something that often at least in America feels very, very hard to do. Yeah. I mean, it's so interesting talking to like American independent filmmakers because your whole process of just getting rich people to give you money seems equally bananas. Yeah. I mean, it's kind of weird that the Canadian government like gives artists funds to make films, but I also think it's like we're so so lucky. And I think the last couple of years have proven like what a incredibly rich like idiosyncratic, you know, pool of filmmakers and talent are out there that are really getting to do things like very freely. Like you don't have to pay the money back. I think I could be wrong. Maybe some of it. You know, that there's no like studio system where they're like telling you who should you should cast and, you know, stipulating like rules on your on your script, they give you feedback, but you don't have to take it in the same way that like Netflix or like I'm sure, you know, 20th century Foxwood. And it's just like very liberating. And I think you're just seeing like a lot of these movies kind of enter the world stage or for the past couple of years. And it's it's like tremendously exciting. It's really cool. - Let's talk a little bit more about my own kicks. I found that you had a real facility with the fragility of the male ego. (laughs) - I wonder why. - That's so interesting. What do you mean? - Well, there's like a certain kind of a guy who's a very recognizable guy from that time. You mentioned Paul Banks from Interpol. He was literally the first famous person that I ever interviewed. - Really? - And I think he's a very nice guy, but even some of that vulnerability I felt when I was talking to him when I was 20 years old. I was 20 years old with my friend Ryan Dombel, who worked at Pitchwork for years. Together, he and I interviewed Paul and the guitars from the band in the basement of the Bowery Ballroom. And I felt a little bit like I was flashing back on that moment watching some of the interactions that your characters are having where it seems like this is supposed to be intimidating. And then it very quickly becomes clear that the person that you're interviewing is just as nervous and awkward as you and just has just as many foibles. And maybe even more than you and how do you protect a person in that situation? Because you feel like you need to do right by their art, but also shouldn't you honestly portray who they really are? And how much empathy or sympathy do you have for the place that they find? I just thought it was very perceptive. - Oh, thanks. - The way that you mapped a lot of that in the movie. - I mean, I'm just having flashbacks to every musician I ever interviewed because you're totally right. It's such a weird, powered dynamic. Because I mean, when you're 20 years old, certainly I felt like completely powerless all the time. Like over my parents, over my bosses, over the people I was stating, like could not hold my own in like a conversation unless I, but there was something about like being on the list and having access and the tape recorder. And like as a way to like make friends and also feel like, you know, it's what almost famous says. Like that you're cool. - Yeah, I belong. - Yeah, totally. - And so, but then yeah, it's weird to be like 20 years old and talking to like Bally Drawn Boy and he's complaining about, you know, how he doesn't even like the sound of his own voice anymore. - Right. - And you're like, he's being so vulnerable with me and this is such a gift. But like, now I am like the keeper of the secrets and like, what do I do with all this information? - Yeah, I always thought like, what do I do with this? (laughing) Like I can write it down in a piece, but it's not gonna properly convey. It's like a real difficult thing to convey humanity to in those scenarios. - Yeah, it always felt myself like accidentally getting into these very deep conversations with people like, I remember Wayne Cohen telling me the least finger from the flaming lips about like, how when his wife's mother died, they had like, they were both consumed so much by grief that they just started having sex all the time and there was the combination of like, sex and death that like gave them the best sex of their life. And I like was like, wow. And then I like, wrote it in the article. My bosses were like, what are people telling you these things? - That's like amazing. - And I was like, I don't know. (laughing) - It's such a strange thing. - Yeah, I think it had something to do with maybe just how like, unassuming I seemed or something. I mean, I think that's what Joan Didian said too, that she's just like, when you're kind of like a small person that's like, I think people just want to tell you their secrets. - Yeah. I feel like a lot of people in that situation also really want to do what your character in the film wants to do, which is right a 33 and a third and somehow thinks that that's like the affirmation of your insight and that you've like, reached some sort of critical mountain top or something 'cause you've written an extended personal essay about a piece of art, like that's another thing that, I feel like if you're not old enough, you might think that you made that up. - Right. - It's like a thing that people do, but in the time. - It was the cultural currency of our day. - Isn't that quite strange? - Absolutely. Did you ever write one? - No, I never wrote one. I never pitched one. I certainly thought about pitching quite a few, but I didn't have the gumption that Barbie's character has in the movie. - Well, neither does she. - Ultimately, yeah, yeah, was a Lannis like a load star for you being from Canada? - Yeah, I mean, I remember just being on the playground and someone like coming over to me and just telling me that they'd read this article about this woman from Canada who was 19 and made this album and she's really mad and she talks about having sex and has a lot of this sort of swearing. And I was like, I gotta get my hands on this. And so after school just begged my mom to take us to the big box Canadian equivalent of a best buy. And listen to the album on like a little, and like in one of those old players where you can sort of preview the song. - Oh, yeah, the listening station. - Which I'm so nostalgic for now. - Right now, those are nice. - I would kill for a listening station. And then I begged her to buy me the cassette and then we put it on. I remember we were in Bramford, Ontario, and my mom had a mini van at the time like a forest green 1996 with Windsor. And my sibling was in the backseat probably like three and a half years old and like a, you know, baby's chair, car seat. And you know, I hit play and like you ought to know is the first song I'm jagged a little bit. And immediate awareness is like, "Would you go down on me in a theater?" And my mom is like, "What did you want me to get you?" (laughs) And I had no idea what she was talking about, but I was also like, this is like the prophecy of what my future is gonna be. Like there's something about this album that is like telling me what it's like to be a woman. And even though my problems are like having intention deficit disorder and like having a messy room and like my mom not letting me wash power rangers with my brother anymore because we got too violent. Like this is like, I relate to this so hard. - It's funny though, just hearing you tell that story with the level of specificity that you have. Like it was very obvious that you have to tell stories, right? That you remember where someone's sitting, you know, what they're wearing, what they were doing at the time, what you were doing, where you were when you heard about something. Like that's not everybody can do that too. That's like kind of a weird superpower. - Oh, thanks. - And like sort of make such specific recent history period piece is such an interesting feat. I'm always so intrigued by them because this, is it all, it's 2011? Is it on the film of set? How did you think about putting that on screen and making sure that it was right? - Well, at first it was just because, you know, that's the summer that I lived in Montreal. And when I wrote the first draft of the script 10 years ago, it was only like 2015. - Right, right. - And then over the, you know, decade that has taken me to make the movie, suddenly that's like a codified aesthetic on TikTok known as Indie Sleeze. - Indeed. I never would have imagined that's what it would have become. - I know, so it's very interesting. I mean, I think I'm always making movies to like be back in the memory of something. Like I think the reason I made, I like movies, was because I wanted to be like, have a sensation again of like, pushing the little like video store cart full of like, jangling, you know, VHS tapes along a carpet. Like, and it rewinding things and like just all the kind of like tactile, like things that I remembered about like working a blockbuster in high school. And it was like very exciting to me to like unearth all these like, like the Jones soda, they, you know, pops that we had that I remember like stacking in the back of the mini fridge. And yeah, and then with this film, yeah, it was more like, oh wow, there's those like ill-fitting disco shorts again. And you know, though like specific like vape that my friend Tyler used to smoke out of and stuff. And so, you know, I think I was really blessed with like a great costume designer, Courtney Mitchell, who's like a genius and productions I'm just hard, who's extraordinary. And like, even just to look at like the aesthetics of like Indie Sleece Photography, that was kind of like personified by like vice magazine. And the coper snake of course, all our promo fix for my link. - Really? - Yeah, like Jeremy Cox, my DP, who just shot a 21st back rooms and it's like an extraordinary collaborator. Like, it was just fun to be like, okay, what does this look like aesthetically? Like, how do we like make a memory and like step back in time a bit? - Dead. I was like, I said on cany for a reason. It's really quite something. How did, so how did roommates happen? - Yeah. So I was in the middle of editing my linkics, teaching a screenwriting class that I had originally taken at University of Toronto, teaching the same class that like made me want to be a filmmaker. - Can I ask you something about that time then? When you were, when you were teaching that class, were you thinking like, I'm gonna be a professional movie director for my life and like, I'm gonna be successful and be able to sustain myself or were you thinking like, I need to have multiple irons on the fire at that time just to pay the rent or whatever. - I have like no, I don't think of my crew anyway. I just think of it as like a random amount of things that just keep happening to me and I continue to fail upwards and that's great. - We are different in that way, okay. - I feel like I was so much more like craven and vicious when I was like 18. - So like what phone call did you receive, what email did you get, what happened? - So okay, it was 10 o'clock at night. I was, you know, marking my students assignments at this 24 hour diner in Toronto called the Lakeview. My agents call me and they're like, for Chandler. When we sign you, who is the person you said you most wanted to work with the entire world? And I was like, Adam Saylor. And they're like, yeah, well, he saw like movies and I'm like, what the fuck? He saw like movies like what are you talking about? And they're like, yeah, he really liked it and he has this project that he wants to shoot this year. It stars as well as Starter Sadie and it's written by these two really funny SNL writers, Kira O'Sullivan and Jimmy Fowley. And if you like it, you know, read it tonight and if you like, he's gonna call you on the phone tomorrow. And I was just utterly stunned. Like I didn't even, like the fact that he watched this movie that we shot in the pandemic that didn't have lights and have my parents as extras and my elder leaders. dog like in the movie and my brother doing an Adam Sandler impression of the Hanukkah song when they watch us and now like all of this was just like fundamentally shocking but the movies also kind of a a love letter to Adam Sandler. So maybe I secretly manifested it in some way. Did you did well I want to hear what your conversation with him was like but did someone slide into him and say hey there's some Sandler stuff in here. How did it come across his trance? I think one of my I think Adam has like a lot of agents at W and E. So one of his agents is my agent. So it was a wonderful and nepo agent. That's a wonderful but did he watch it and say I think there really is going to make sense also relieve that they finally got me a job after like four years. So what did Adam say? So okay so I'm freaking out I read the script and in one sitting I'm really blown away by how funny and and kind of surprising it is like it it really is like a you know it had like this kind of honesty and like felt like a real reflection of sort of Gen Z and when it's like to go to college now but then it also takes these like absolutely insane sort of happy Madison-esque turns and you know I was thinking a lot too about like female comedy directors in the 80s and 90s like women like Penny Marshall and Amy Hacker Ling and Tamra Davis who direct Billy Madison and how and how like you know there was a brief window in time when like those women got to shoot you know like and Betty Thomas yeah a million dollar like studio comedy is in now like that never happens again so crazy so um so yeah I was I just like freaked out when to bed and then woke up at noon to a call that from a number I didn't recognize and I like unlocked my phone and I was like hello and and then the other line was like jello this is Adam focus Taylor and I was like hi and um he's like I really like I like movies it's a really fucking good movie and I was like oh my god and then for like 15 minutes he like was like quoting lines of dialogue back at me and he was mentioning like specific edits in the film and like performance beats and like how I covered like a scene and I was just utterly shocked that you know this is like my idol like I used to walk around my high school listening to the Punch Run Club soundtrack of my like CD player just like imagining that I was in the movie like I just worship at the throat of Adam Taylor so for him to see me as like a peer and an equal was like absolutely astonishing and then yeah we talked for like an hour and a half and you know three days later I was like being flown to um to LA to pitch the movie to Netflix with him and we we like sat in this like hotel room and in Beverly Hills and you know luckily I made a look book in like the three days that I had to prepare um but it was just like incredible and so surreal like kind of talking about like our shared vision for the movie and one of the Netflix execs was like that's the calmest like I've ever seen someone in a pitch meeting and I was like Adam really grounds me but I think it was just because I had like felt like I'd fully gotten to like a different like you know timeline or multiverse or something like this was not my life so you know I was in like Canadian micro budget timeline you know I I read that like the gap for most women between their first and second features is like eight years and so I was like perfectly content to kind of like you know I I'd already made like my link kicks like a very quickly by those standards so to make another movie and have that like jump was just like utterly surreal so I imagine it had to have been somewhat challenging because you're making a movie for a big streaming platform plus also the producer of the movie is daughters in the film that's complicated plus you know you're making a movie honestly about a generational experience that you're now a little removed from yeah um I don't know where you want to start from that those challenges but like what was the most tricky thing to unlock in making the movie well I mean there's just so many things there's like you know he I felt like he recognized it potential in me as a filmmaker that like I didn't even know that I had you know because I read that script but I'm like okay there's like a whole like pyrotechnic like fire scene there's like crazy stunts at the ropes course there's like a turkey that explodes there's like you know this inco giant ensemble these these big spring break like set pieces where you know there's gonna be like 300 extras like I don't know how to do this and um but Adam's like oh you'll figure it out like no problem you got this and booby so I think it was really like Adam's belief in me that just kind of like made it possible and then of course you like work with such a great group of collaborators that you know you realize that like the key to doing that is like oh well you work with like an incredible stunt choreographer like Mark Fisher or are my are cinematographer Maria Rushi who shot Shiva baby in bottoms like was just so peckily smart about like how to break something down and make like something funny comically like in an image and um really innately like elevated kind of what was on the page with like like really strong like cinematic ideas and then and then yeah then it just became fun they like have all these resources like to do like crazy you know magnolia inspired like crane shots and you know setty cam winners and and have like four cameras for for you know on a day I mean it was like unbelievably like I felt like I kind of um suddenly was like doing my PhD in like studio comedy filmmaking but everyone around me was so experienced and supportive and you know it's it becomes like very collaborative and I think one thing that is interesting about Adam that people might not think is like he really is like the otor of his own movies like you know and no one thinks of those movies happy Madison film is like being directed by the director of their their Adam Sandler movies and they have a very specific like Autoristic kind of like themes like aesthetic like actors that kind of like travel case thing all that stuff yeah like no and Adam Sandler movie when you see it yep and um he's like working in the same tradition like Jerry Lewis was working and that buster Keaton was working and they're just like they've built a persona and know everything it marks brothers yeah exactly yeah so you as a you are like co-directing the movie with him you know and one thing that I was really surprised by was that oh much you know runway he gave me to kind of have my own ideas and instincts about things and if I you know but yeah of course it's it's like a very um like specific you know when it's like your daughters the lead actor of the movie and you know sometimes I had instincts about how I wanted her to play the scene and sometimes he had different instincts and then I'm like what are Sadie's instincts like and so I think we all had to kind of like just try different options and explore from from different angles and that was like kind of an interesting process because I think I've been so like monolithic in my other two movies I feel like she gives a really good performance and it's a hard character yes there's like a lot of turmoil in that character and she's like not always likeable but she's not always the hero like she has to be flawed it was like unusual like it's like logically rich for a happy Madison movie in that way conversely yeah if you like the tone is like lady bird meets you be Halloween yeah totally the way that I'm very proud of yes that's you nailed it I couldn't have said it better um I also have a lot of Chloe East stock oh my god as a Fableman's boy you know really um I think she's really quite special as a performer and she's playing like a real old-school like 80-style movie character you know where it's like why is this person such an asshole but also something else is going on under the surface and we want to know what what it is yeah she's so charismatic at the same time yeah and really likable like it's it is it is kind of like to me like a Regina George level performance and I just think she's like such a phenomenal actor and Sadie too I mean I can't imagine like finishing your first year of college when you're about to start a 30 million dollar movie and and just handling it with that degree of like a plum and preparation and just kind of like professionalism and just like commitments are really going there you know yeah so the two films which came out on the same day which is crazy which we couldn't could we locate a single person who's released two feature films on the same day we were talking about it yeah um I don't think so to Burke maybe with traffic and Aaron Brock of it I think same year but not same exact day so like same exact day is that good or was it bad is it is it do you worry about one blotting out the other would you like to have had six months in between is it easier to just pack up all this promotional moment up and so you know a couple of weeks of time um I really can't say I mean I was making both movies at the same time so in a weird way it kind of feels fitting that that they're both coming out on the same day because you know in in prep for roommates I was still finishing like the score and sound mix and color correct so I was like on an iPad you know in like a frat house like trying to get you know Wi-Fi to like approve the effect shots and stuff and um you know while I don't you know Spielberg when he made um drastic park and chinners lists at the same time both excellent comps to my two films yeah we're similar um he I think George Lucas did the post for um drastic park to kind of help him out while he's making shinners lists yes and I'm very lucky that my wonderful editor um Simone Smith like really stepped in for a lot of the the sound mix and kind of post stuff because she yeah she really like is my best friend and like invaluable and also just that my producers like were willing to kind of accommodate it I think they realized it was like like an offer I couldn't refuse. - Yeah, so now what? Like these are two very different movies, but obviously they have a tremendous amount of crossover with your point of view. Is there one path or another that you wanna try to pursue? Do you have, are you doing another movie? Like what's next? - Yeah, I think that's a great question. Like I always considered myself like, I wanna be like a personal filmmaker, like writer-director. And you know, if I can make like two personal kind of semi-autobiographical films a decade until I'm 80, like that would be just great. - Oh, I like that. - And then when I'm 80, either retire or like find a younger like host body that I can sort of like being John Malkovich my way into. And so I never thought that I would be making like any kind of studio movie or, you know, yeah, like it just, it never like kind of occurred to me. And it, but like this was such an incredible like challenge and I'm so like grateful for the experience and just all the genius people that I got to work with. I mean, every day it was like an embarrassment of riches to direct, you know, Carol Cain and Steve Bussemi and Jeanine Garofalo and like it just goes on and on as well as this like really brilliant young cast. I don't know, like I think I'm really inspired by like filmmakers like Zach Kregger who kind of really retain their voice while like going to bigger, bigger stages or yeah, or Greta Gerwig who I, you know, was again like curled up in the feudal position being like, I just want to make a movie. And especially Matt Johnson who, you know, like produced my lane kicks with his producer Matt Miller as well as my producer's Pat Kylie and Julie Grillo and like really for 10 years was like telling me like we're gonna make this movie like don't give up on it. And just to see him like, you know, work with Neon and go into these like bigger stages, like it inspires me. I think I'm always like torn 'cause like, you know, it's funny that Sophie's movie is coming out 'cause I always feel like I once was Sophie has. I want to be like a, a yawness film girly and like be having lunch with Iris Sacks and like, you know, this like, you know, I remember like seeing her like take a selfie with Jafar Pannoni. Meanwhile, I'm like talking about the effects on the dogs, but, you know, but it's like, I don't know. No one's path is like linear. No, I mean, I relate to you. I think it's very normal to like and want both, you know? I think all filmmakers like we all project on each other and everyone's career seems like it's different and better than ours. And, you know, like the films I really love are just like, like Tony Erdman and, you know, the apartment and almost famous and Punch Drunk Love. And like I just, I don't know. I want to like sort of maybe straddle that line. There's like a genre blur going on in all of those movies. Yeah, that totally makes sense. I was trying to situate how I like movies in my own kicks was making me feel. And it was like a little bit of Mike Lee, a little bit of Albert Brooks. Like, you know, like kind of like, there's like some social discomfort and you've got this really kind of like charismatic but strange person at the center of the movie, you know? Which like, like naked, yeah. Like naked, like, well, hopefully not as devious. But yeah, I don't know. I just, I think it's, I think you have a singular perspective especially on those movies. So you should definitely keep pursuing that. Oh my God. Thank you. Well, from one spin in turn to another, you know, we, I remember we worked in, did you have to work in this basement? That was called the pit. No, no. In fact, I was working by, when you were at spin, I was at vibe. And I think we were using the same building and it was a 215 Lex. Is that what it was? That's right. You're all the Yashima schools. Yes, exactly. And then we split and we moved to different offices. Like a year or two later, you might have gone back to Canada at that point. I was back in Canada. But that was very traumatic. Because I interned at spin as a college student. And then what was exciting to go back to that building. Absolutely. When I got the vibe job. But then it was not, it felt like things had changed. A lot of the people had left that I looked up to and things were revolving. And then that's the other thing too, is like you get to the center of this stuff and you're like, so this is it? This is what it is? Is that how you feel? It's every day. Really? Every time just getting trying to dig deeper and deeper. Like looking for the heart of it. What do you mean by that? Just waiting to see who's, you know, what's really going to wild me? You know, what am I really going to be knocked out? Spielberg itself, I wasn't enough. Well, that was a rare exception. You know? No, it's not about that. It's not about like the people that you encounter when you're doing the thing. It's more like when you're inside the machine. What is inside the machine? Which I actually wonder for you, similarly, when you're getting, now that, I feel like making a big movie like this for Netflix is a big step in a person's career. It's like a big opportunity. Yeah. It's a little bit closer to like the center of how some of these things work. I have no idea. Okay. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's interesting. Ted Serrano's was like sitting behind me at the roommates premiere and I heard him laughing through the whole film and then afterwards, I like shook his hand. It's the softest hand I've ever felt in my life. Right. Not picking up a lot of lumber. Ted Serrano's like, you know, like, see you on the next one. Like, great job. And I was like, like, everything is just so surreal to me, like, I don't know. I think I, because I have no expectations, maybe it's like an easier way to go through through I'm sure my managers and agents are like, what are you doing? You're doing this, but it's like, I just kind of want to tell, like, personal, weird stories and characters that I love and like, can't see enough of and kind of just like continue to make movies and grow and like collaborate with interesting people, you know? And I think that's the same reason I loved journalism was like, you get thrown in these like amazing kind of situations that are so unlike your regular life, like, you know, where all of a sudden you're like, you know, on the, on the road with a band or talking to Nicole Hall of Center over, like a buffet at the Rajson hotel or something. And then, and, and in same with film, like, I'm always like stepping on like a 40 foot ladder to like, you know, riding on a crane or something. And it's like, so unlike my real life, which is literally just like looking at my phone. Have you had a chance to meet Cameron Crowe? I met him very briefly at his, his book launch in LA. And I paid $350 to get the like, you know, extra, extra pass. Oh, okay. I'm going to, I'm going to try to get you guys in touch. I feel like you should talk to him. He's a very special person. I would be very grateful and respectful of his time. I think the way that you are living the legacy of almost famous would probably touch him. I tried to not lose it when I met him earlier this year, but I feel similarly. I could tell from his aura that he was wonderful. He's very kind. It was just like the wrong way because I idolized him so much. And, you know, I think I'm a filmmaker because of him and, you know, writer because of him. And like partially a human being because of all of the movies he's made. And so I think I just put too much pressure on him. And like he was really nice, but like it was like the wrong way to meet him. Yeah. And Adam had like told him that I was coming. He's because they're buzz. Yeah. I think he just like texted him because like a picture of like Eddie Vedder's drum set. And he's like, oh yeah, my friend trailer's coming. He's a nice girl. And then I went and I was like, and he like I met him. And he was like on stage and I walked over to like greet him. And, you know, I was so like I've been imagining this moment for like 20 years. Yeah. And he was just like the lady was like, oh, I really like your dress. I'm like, thank you. And then he was like, hi, I'm Cameron, which is also the same name as my dad. And I was like, I'm Chandler. And he's like, where are you from, Chandler? I'm like, Toronto. He's like, oh, is Bloor Street still around? And I'm like, the largest street in Toronto? Yes. And then I am like, yeah, you know, like the Yorkville music scene from the 60s. Charlie Bishop, he's like, wow, you really know your stuff. But I'm like, he's like, so you want to take a picture? I'm like, okay. And then we like took this picture. And then I was like, this is going to be over in 25 seconds. Like, what do I do? That's not, that's never the right way to do it. It needs to be a little bit more prolonged experience, you know? But, you know, like I'm, yeah, I'm, you know, I would be, I don't want to, no one owes me anything. His movies have already given me so much. He should watch your movies. That's the next step. Let's, let's make this like a campaign. Okay, Chandler and episode of the show by asking filmmakers, what's the last great thing you've seen? Oh, wow. That's such a great question. I'm rocking my brain. I want to say a pillion. Yeah. I love that movie so much. What did you like about it? I keep describing it as like heated rivalry meets the office, like the British office. No, like they're, or I don't know, maybe like an intonation movie or something, but I just thought it was so funny, so moving, so tender at the heart of it. Like, I keep thinking about it. And like, I think the way that it just like, yeah, I love that it's so like auditiously queer, but it also just feels like actually, you know what movie it really reminds me of? What was Johanna hogs the souvenir? Yes. Like, just a formative heartbreak and someone who really transforms out of a very painful relationship, but is in some way liberated and closer to the identity of who they really are. So well put. And similarly, like, withholding and mysterious partners who are like, unable to really give themselves over. Yes. Yeah. And like, you're just like, do you see me? Do you see me now? It's a great comparison. Can I, can I debase myself a little bit more for you? Yeah, yeah. And like the body, I think we like these movies. Oh, let's not do that. I think I made a film about that. Chandler congrats on on two films and in great 2026. Oh my God. Thank you Sean You're your greats in a file and thank you for consistently repping Canada. We we love you. I'm doing my best. Thank you Thanks to Chandler thanks to Jack Sanders for his production work on this episode Thanks to Lucas Kavanaugh for his production work on this episode. Thanks to Sarah Ready for filling in for us Next week. I'll be talking about Andor Which is it's a TV show yeah I've seen several episodes and quite enjoyed it But then I had to get on with the rest of my life. I understand that on Chris Ryan's gonna join me Chris Chris is covered and we're quite well on the watch if you want to hear that you should check it out But we're gonna dig into that we're on the precipice of this Mandalorian and Grogu movie some tracking came out today Yeah, not great Bob. Yeah, quite like could be an issue In my home we're also getting ready for it. I'm I am solo parenting right now, so My new trick is in them in the mornings to Carole everyone into the kitchen and get them to eat their breakfast I just start playing the Star Wars theme as loud as possible and everybody runs in and then starts galloping around So we'll be there. I don't know if anyone else will but that's okay. We'll be there as well. We'll see you soon You