The Dental Insurance Playbook: Strategies to Maximize Fees and Efficiency

(upbeat music) - Welcome to the Dental Slang Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Resa Ardellon. Our guest today is Dr. Travis Campbell. Dr. Travis Campbell has been a practicing dentist since 2009. After graduating from Baylor University in Waco, Texas in 2005, and then Baylor College of Dentistry in Dallas, Texas, Dr. Campbell is now an author, trainer, speaker, contributor to various online dental communities and dental coaching consultants. Having gained a reputation as a resource for other dentists in the complex area of dental insurance, Dr. Campbell is often referred to as the dental insurance guide. He dispels many of the myths and misinformation around today's dental insurance policies and explains how to navigate the complexities of being an exceptional dentist, business owner, and leader while still having a life outside of work. His most recent textbook, Understanding Dental Insurance, has become a best seller in dentistry and has already sold out twice. He has also launched the most comprehensive online resource for dental insurance, dentalinsuranceguide.com. Please welcome our guest today, Dr. Travis Campbell. - What's going on, buddy? How are you, my friend? - Doing great, Resa? Always good talking with you. - Okay, so listen, you and I chat offline all the time, but I have had a ton of questions come in as I was telling folks that I was having you come on the podcast. So I don't want to take a ton of time, but I kind of want to dive into a lot of the questions that I was getting, but for folks that may be under rock and not know in the dental space, you are affectionately known as the dental insurance guide. And I have like a two-part question because I just think the story's great. - One, how is it that you ended up becoming the dental insurance guide? And then the second part is, why is this such an important topic for dental offices to master? - You know, why I became it is a technique off. I mean, you see all the churches made me mad. And so I started trying to look for solutions and most of what I could find online did not jive with the actual source documentation, like state laws and insurance contracts. I'm like, wait a minute, this doesn't make sense. So I started a lot of research and found, yeah, there's a ton of myths, there's a ton of things people say that are not supported by anything. And so we start making some shifts based on that, based on the only true documentation that's out there. And we started doing really well. And so people start hearing, hey, you've got to wait single doctor office collecting $2.8 million in network. Maybe how do you, four days a week in all hours? How do you do that, my, how much was it? - We do. - And so we started actually, you know, 'cause I started answering questions years ago and then you know, it was, there's a ton of practice management people out there, but there's really not a lot of, actually there's no dentist, clinical dentist out there that they're doing this. So it, and just means I come from a different perspective, I come from the actual clinician perspective on what do we have to do day-to-day to make dealing with the insurance company more manageable. That's it. And so I was becoming pretty successful, 'cause yeah, I don't know, I'm weird. What the insurance company does make sense to me? Not that I agree with it, but it makes sense. And therefore I can understand how to do that. Now why it's so important is, I don't care if you're in network, out-of-network should be for service. Insurance is still involved with last statistic I saw from last year is 85% of all dental services involve insurance. And so, you know, regardless of our participation level, insurance is there. It is a part of the deal. Even if your fee for service collecting full amount, you still have to document and send claims in the way that it's gonna get your patients, their benefits. So it's just the way we get paid, or the way the patient gets payment back. There's no around that. There's just, you know, try to find ways to make it more efficient and less stressful and less headaches. And that's what it looks like. - So that's great, it's funny. You know, later on, I've got one of my questions, I'm gonna bring up the idea of fee for service. I didn't know, 85%, that's a huge number. I think it's interesting that the first time I heard you speak, one of the stories you're kind of talking about is, you actually asked us, you're like, how many people here have actually read their insurance contracts? And then, you know, a couple of us kind of raise our hand, and then you're like, no, like all of it, all like hundreds of patients. There was no hand, the only hand in the room that was up was yours. And you were like, I was bored, so I started reading. I was like, thank goodness to somebody like you that's delving into the details, because the truth is most of us, you know, especially early on in our careers, I take more pride in understanding it now. But early on, you just get this big old book and you're like, well, I guess I have to sign it because there is no other option. But you talk a lot about saying, if you understand the rules of the insurance company, that that can help practices thrive with in the system, rather than feeling stuck in it, which is what so many people do. So are there any examples you have of that or a practice is doing well that understand, hey, these are the rules. This is the central engagement. Here's how you can work around it. - Yeah, I mean, first thing I would say to everybody is go find your contract. (laughing) Some people don't save it, which is crazy to me that you would sign a contract that basically runs your life in some form of fashion. And you don't keep a copy. But go read the thing. It's, and I'm not saying you have to, you can skip through a few things, but a lot of it's in English. A lot of it is not that hard to understand. I am not a lawyer, so, but I can understand insurance contracts. They're not that bad. And it's amazing how many things are in there that are a complete opposite of what some of those fear mongers are lying or talking about. So it's really entertaining to me when I see, oh, you can do this, so you can't do that. I'm like, yeah, where did you get that from? 'Cause it wasn't from the contract. And so you can learn a ton. The impact of this and the important part is, I mean, it's this little chart I use all the time that shows, you know, the different ways that an office can improve collections. Right. And so you take 100, 800 dollars, no more office. The average, the BAD says is out there. And with these different changes, most of them being insurance, you can take it to dull. Dull collections with the same office, still being a network. And I'm like, that's the impact that knowing how to do this can make. And it's huge. And it's fun. And that's how we did it. It's not that I'm going roller skates. I actually don't own roller skates. I probably would be pretty bad at the time of the war. You know, we just do basic dentistry. And a little bit of surgery, but the vast majority of what I do is basic day-to-day dentistry that everybody does is nothing special. It's just, we're very efficient with it. And we know how to deal with insurance, and we know coding, and we know how to collect. And so, I mean, the biggest failures. So, number one is collection rates. Every office should be 99% or higher. Sadly, the average is 92%. So, that's a 7% loss. Well, 7% loss, $100,000 is $56,000. I don't know about you. They already did. By the way, sorry, it didn't work. You just didn't collect for it. That sounds like a huge problem. That's pretty easy to fix. You know, I talk today, or two different meetings, that there's a lot of times that EOBs are incorrect. There's this myth out there that EOBs are always, you know, perfect. Yeah, an insurance company's processing millions of EOBs. How does anybody ever think that they're all absolutely perfect? There's errors that happen. There is an idiot system. So, but those errors from every office I've audited, and I've done a ton of them, they cost offices 10 to 20% of collections. Wow, just in EOB errors, and downer rates that weren't collected, or disallows that are illegal. I mean, things that the insurance company is cleaning on the EOB, which is not true, and it's just that EOB software does not deal with it, and therefore, sent you some bonus answer. So knowing what your rules are and not is huge. That's why I mean, hard work site, one of the first things I'll put together was all the state boss. Okay. Because there's no, I couldn't find a good location to find them. The only location I found was like a decade old, and therefore obsolete because the law's changing. So we put that up, and that's free. Anyway, go on website, check out your state balls there. You know, you can get them. So, you know, you put all these things together, and yeah, an office can vastly increase their collections without trying to deal with fraud, without playing these stupid little games I've seen. Like really crazy stuff. Without lying to the insurance company, to make it to where it's a win-win. I mean, the office collects for legitimate services and the patient's biggest thing, oh, there's one of my other little pet peeves, is somehow thanking the term estimate, solves your failure to create an accurate, you know, treatment plan. My patients don't accept that. If, you know, we try to tell the patient, they owe more after the fact, I hear all sorts of excuses under the sun, and it ends up with a really negative situation. So, it's never good when you have to come back and say after the facts. So by the way, you also owe us this. Yeah. And so, I mean, we've got language to try to mitigate that, but the biggest answer is estimated in a way that if you're ever wrong, you're refunding money, right? And then everybody's happy. And your collections are 99%. You don't get negative reviews. You're not losing patients, families, and, you know, and the team doesn't deal with the negative vibes of being yelled at for being wrong. So, but, you know, it's just one of those things. I don't know what people don't think about, you know, if you have a problem, why don't you go back to the source, figure out how to fix it, and then never have the problem again. Global learning experience. So let me, let me delve into that a little bit more. So let's stick in that, that PPO world, because there's a little more nuance there. What would you say are some of the two or three, like most common kind of specific mistakes that offices are making and what they should do instead? Number one, by far, is documentation. - Okay, and I will say this is always a touchy subject with dentists, because most of us seem to think our documentation is good. And yet, we've always heard, if you go to the state board, you're talking to the board, it's not the same. You go to the board, dentistry, I mean. - So, I think to tell you, the board's probably more accurate than you are on this, and the insurance company is only kind of utilizing that same process. So, if you document well, you have better protection, and the insurance company pays you better, like more accurately. We have the two largest services that are denied for more than anything else, is scaling and replaying, that's gum disease treatment for your pediatric illness, that's over what that is, and there's crowns of billers. Those are the top two. We don't get denied on either one. - Why is it that the other offices are getting denied on this? - Because, and I used to have this opinion. So, this is not a, oh my gosh, didn't it should be crazy? It's a, I've been there. It's the idea that, well, we're doctors. We document the way we should. The insurance company should stick to our stuff, and yes, the insurance company's money. No, if you want the insurance company's money, you document it in a way that they want it see, because you can change yourself. You're not gonna change the multi-gly dollar company. - Right. - And then everybody's happy. - The odd part is, there's this thought that insurance companies are denying stuff just to deny it, and technically, yeah, there's probably some of that with middle managers, but the company at a whole can't do that, because the state would be all over them. So, most documentation are denials, or documentation issues that if you learned the document, well, we've got proven history for a decade, that we just don't get denied on these things. And if they do, 'cause, you know, sometimes the first thing I was just an AI going, I'm not a human dial, I don't know what I'm doing, we get approval on the first appeal. So, we always get paid, and that's a huge problem. If you don't get paid, then what do you do? Do you try to go to the patient go, "Well, your insurance doesn't want to pay, so you should want to pay." - Right. - The patient's like, "Yeah, no, I don't know." It's, and the worst one I ever hear is, "Well, Doc, if I know how much this was gonna cost me before I did it, I would never have done it." I'm like, how do I answer that? So, I mean, that's one. The other one is not knowing the policies. So, you know, garbage in equals garbage out. If you don't have a good breakdown of benefits, then you will have a poor treatment plan, which will be inaccurate, which will lead to patients oweing money. So, first thing is get a really good breakdown of benefits. And if for whatever reason you don't have that, 'cause we have patients that, like, call up and go, "I get an emergency, I get a gain right now, we have no time to check their insurance, great." You assume the worst case scenario. So, I mean, some of the most common ones is, downgrades is by far the most common thing, almost any policy. So, you know, you do a composite filling insurance is paying for a mountain. You do a forcing crown insurance is paying for a mountain crown. If you are certain, the policy has that downgrade, great, assume the downgrade. 'Cause then the patient, worst case scenario, has a credit. Right. Well, hey, everybody's happy. But if you don't know the downgrade's coming, then the patient's upset. Yeah, that's that surprise that you're talking about. It's like, whoops. You also know it's this. It's like, well, you didn't tell me that. I wouldn't have done it. And it's like, a-ha, and a simple solution like that would have. Yeah, so it's just a, and I know it's, a lot of times the treatment coordinator's trying to get the patient to do it. And therefore, they're trying to give them the rosy scenario that insurance pays everything as expected. But then they deal with all the fallout afterwards. My saying goes says, don't give the rosy scenario. Give the worst case scenario. And then everything is always better for the patient after that. And you and I have talked about this on the practice management side. If you're office and as the doctors, if you've created that value, even if you give that worst case scenario, they're gonna look at it and say, well, yeah, it's still worth it because they explain why this isn't important. And it was a refund. It's like, oh, great. And if not, they were prepared for it because they already accepted that part of that, that treatment. So that makes sense. - Well, and you already have the money. That's one of those other things. The other thing I do in the room a lot and have people raise their hands, which is fun, is I ask people at what point they collect money. And the first one is, do you collect money after the EOB? I don't get a lot of people to do that, but if they do, I'm like, what's the collection rate? 'Cause it's probably like 40%. The biggest point is collect money before you start to work. - Yeah. - I mean, once you've done the work, we can't repo dentistry. Unless it's denture, I suppose we could repo denture. But you can't repo dentistry. So, but so many offices I found. And mine was, I mean, I was at fault for this for years. You gotta collect money at front. And so, and that makes everybody happier. Even the patient, they may not be happy paying at the money at front now, but then there'll be a lot happier when you never have to tell them later that they own money. - That's right. And if that expectation is set at the beginning, it should be surprising. I gotta pay it at some point. Now, it's safe from if they're on a payment plan, but that, you know, payments do a time of service. You know, we always say the store is like, you never go to the grocery store. And after you take your grocery so many, just like I'm gonna go back and pay for it. It's like, no, no, no, when you're checking out, that's when you pay. Here's something that I wanted to ask you about, which I find fascinating when I have conversations. Because, you know, I'm in private practice. I'm a very busy pediatric dental office. And we've spent years doing a lot of the things that you're talking about putting in our system. One of the things that I find it interesting that so many people don't know about, especially with PPO is the idea that you can actually negotiate your fees. So many folks just say, well, this is the fee and they just accept it right away. Now, sometimes the negotiations are not successful, but when it comes to fee negotiations, where do most practices go wrong? Other than I'm assuming like, they just don't even try to negotiate. And what would be some tips or things that they could do to try to improve their chances of success? - All right, so there is, on my side, there's a free video that goes, I want to happen to this, 'cause it does get very detailed. So go watch the video, I mean, it's free, but here's the basics. For one is, negotiations don't happen the way most people think they do anymore. It's all about affiliations. Affiliation is, you sign up with insurance A, and you automatically also get into insurance BC and D on the same fee schedule, 'cause you'd all be assigned to the fee schedule you agreed to. And that creates a lot of problems because it's this interconnecting, you know, spaghetti plate of, you know, affiliations that you've got to navigate through. And if you just go sign up with everybody, guess what? There're gonna be affiliations that have you get a lower fee schedule than you signed up with one company because you agree to a lower one with another one. So the answer is somewhat more complex and so on, easier is you should only ever be signed up with about three insurance companies. - That's it. - Yeah. - Because two of those will get you in network with everybody else at a much higher fee, naturally. So that's affiliation. So that's the first thing people have to understand. - These are these. We would let people talk about like the umbrella plans, right? - Exactly, umbrellas, TPAs, there's lots of different terms, but it all needs the same thing. As you sign up with one insurance and you get in network with a bunch of others and that one insurance usually doesn't process claims themselves. They're just trying to get you in network and then they sell your name to the other insurance companies that are willing to take that higher fee. The second part is true negotiations. It is far less common because the negotiating directly with most insurers doesn't work so well. You'll get like a two percent, five percent increase. You're going to umbrellas you get 20, 30, 40, 50 percent increase. So a huge difference. But if you go with an umbrella and don't negotiate, you won't get the high fees. If you try to negotiate yourself, it might work, but I can tell you most insurance companies at this point, even the umbrellas willing to negotiate so far 'cause they know you don't know what you're doing. You don't have any cloud off, you don't have any buying power. And the true negotiators, I don't only see a couple of them do this well. The true negotiators don't just call up random company ABC and say, "Hey, I want higher fees." They call it Stally, that company ABC. They've worked with it does another time. You know, you gave me this fee schedule before, just let's stop wasting your time in the fee schedule now. And Stally's like, yeah, I got to another people trying to call me, "Yes, sure, let's do it and move on." So it's a-. It's a relationship, it's who you know is more important than anything when it comes to negotiations. And very few companies have that relationship. I know. So yeah, those are the two biggest things. Running a dental practice is complicated. 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But literally, just that's the first thing they got to go do is drop network. Because the book, six to nine months out on hygiene and book like two or three months out on treatment, your patients are suffering because you're overblood. The best way to decrease patient flow is get out of network. And guess what, make more money, and your patients are better treated. So it's a win-win. So that's the first thing. If your schedule's just super busy and full, your patients are demanding that you're getting out of network and kind of raise your fees. The second one is, can your P&L understand it? So you've got 10 different insurance companies. The fallacy I see a lot is, well, we can't afford the fee of ex-treatment. I'm like, OK, do you understand how your P&L works? Because unfortunately in the industry, we are almost the exact opposite of most other industries. Our fixed cost are the highest of almost 80 industry and our variable costs are almost the lowest. Meaning, our cost that we're going to spend regardless how many patients we see are super high. Yeah. And so our goal is to get as much industry done to meet that break-even point before we ever make profit. It doesn't matter, the filling's $100 or $400. If you do $100 fillings and $400 filling, the 10 are going to get you there a lot shatter. Now, is it ideal? Is it perfect? No, of course not. But you've got to build the office and be busy first. So that's always the goal. The second one is to realize most offices do this wrong. They do backwards. So they start dropping all the other insurance companies and hang on to Delta. Delta's the one that houses the most problems. Delta's the one that usually nowadays has the lowest fees. And if you're in umbrellas, Delta's guaranteed the one that has the lowest fee by far. So the rule is, 'cause so many people leave Delta to last and then they kind of feel stuck, 'cause now it's like half their patients and they can't get rid of half at once and that's wrong. So the answers go back with umbrellas. Build your office to where you're busy and then go drop Delta who won't negotiate with anybody. Because it's like so many, and when I hear advice given, it makes sense at the beginning to say, hey, start with like the low hanging fruit get rid of some of those. But you're right, sometimes when you end up with one of the bigger insurance companies, paying you really well, great, that's fine. But if you end up with a Delta dental and they're a good portion of your practice and all of a sudden they cut fees, that's what happened. For years, Florida where I'm based out of Delta was fine. They just kind of didn't bother us, especially specialists. And we were able to negotiate our fees with Delta and then a couple of years ago, year and a half ago, they came and they slashed 30%. I, mine was even more than 30% 'cause I had a different fee schedule than everybody else. And it was 25% of my practice, but we did exactly what you did. We looked at the numbers and we said, what percentage of that 25%, do we really need to stay? Have we created enough value that we just said forget it? We can't deal with the service that I wanna provide for this new really low fee. So we went ahead and we were in the first ones that we dropped it and some patients leave. So many came back, we retained over 80% of the patients. And now they're, and Delta still paid out of network benefits and some of them there was almost no difference. So we played that game, but yeah, it could be scary for folks with that. I'm so glad you said that because so many people will say, well, I'll drop the little one. That's okay, but you better understand the ones that you're keeping. What is your fee schedule? If those are low, then maybe you need to look at it the other way, get those little ones up and then just look at taking that big thing. - Well, the big thing is so many people are directly contracted with like 40, 50, 60% discounts. We gotta change that first. You gotta go over those first and get like 15 to 20% discounts. And then the other ones become a no brainer. At that point, you know, I hate to rag on Delta. No, I don't. But I hate to say a Delta but your fees are the worst in comparison to umbrella is if you want me to stop talking about Delta, then go raise your fees. But it's the, it just comes down to yes, which insurance company is the lowest? When you've got all your insurance companies at 20% discount and one of them's at 60, there is no choice. You must go draw the 60. So that's the solution for everybody. Now, here's the fun part. That's the solution for literally everyone. The only difference is everyone should go umbrellas because higher fees. And at that point, it's the decision, do we drop or not? So literally every office no matter what their participation level they want, that should be step one. Step two is just where they drop from there. And it's usually below SV and whatever that low SV happens to be Delta, you know, you go with it. So that's the biggest issue on, 'cause people do it backwards and then they get stopped. Yeah, and we just say the thing. We dropped all the other entrances and then went back under umbrellas and now our fees are so much better and now we're looking at getting rid of Delta. Yeah, and you don't feel like you get taken advantage of. Travis, one of the questions that had come in that somebody wanted me to ask you is, and you obviously I think are the most perfect person that answered this, but are there any upcoming, like policy changes or trends, they you're seeing in the dental insurance world that could significantly potentially impact private practice, Dennis. - So, I mean, the biggest one, most people know about is MLR, medical loss ratio. This is, the insurance company must spend X amount of their premium budgets on claims. The sad part is, although it is probably where we spend the most amount of efforts from a national group and the ADA, it's not gonna get what we want. 'Cause if you talk to every insurance consultant that works with the insurance companies, all of the MLR rules are, you must either raise fees or refund money to your clients. What do you think they're gonna do? - They're gonna make their clients happy. I mean, it's a nowhere inner. So, while I get the idea behind it is a good idea, there are ways to get what we want. Without going that, it actually ways that don't, aren't nearly as hard to get past. So, for instance, in our state and in Tennessee, right about the same time. So, a cooist of whoever was in Tennessee that did this, is we got rid of disalabs. Disalabs are where the insurance company, for whatever reason, tells us that not only are they not paying that the patient shouldn't pay either, it's ridiculous. You just have slave labor and did things for free. It didn't directly legal in every state, but we made it directly legal in Texas in Tennessee. That's a law that have fun. There was no debate. It went straight through, no argument, nothing. 'Cause it doesn't affect the insurance company. So, what do they care? They don't. But how it affects us? It's usually a 10 or 20% loss in offices every year. - Yeah. - Hey, you just made a bunch of money back if you understand the law. And again, this is why we try to put everything I can find online on that one website with all of it. And so, those are the biggest ones. There's always little other things coming about. I would love to see insurance companies actually, and this is kind of one thing I want them to do is, if we want an insurance company to do something, we have to sort of respect the fact that they want profit margins. They're a company, just like any other company. Just like us, we want profit margins. And if we want them to do things, we need to find solutions that don't hurt their bottom line. If we do this, guess what? They say yes, we win, and we keep getting to go forwards. The best way to get insurance companies to raise fees is not MLR, because we've already seen that's not really affecting yet. It's actually getting them to start changing their policies across the board, and the biggest easiest one, where there's multiple ways, but the easiest one is reduce the coverage tables. The normal 180/50, if they reduced it to like 80/50/30, they can raise fees, pay the same check. The patients are out of pocket more, but then the fee structures go up. So there are solutions to what we want that are for ease. to get. If we just go to the insurance time and go, "Hey, let's find a reason that actually doesn't affect your pocketbook," because they won't agree to any of those. Well, that's a great thing, especially like those that are out there with organized dentistry or organization going out there and lobbying. It's nice to say, "Well, how about we focus on this?" It's funny. You've mentioned it a couple of times, but I'm going to give the shameless plug for you, but you have a website, so with a lot of this information, and as it should be, it's the demoinsuranceguide.com. You have a ton of free information on them, which I think is just fantastic. But you also have a member version too, and I know that as a member of dentalinsuranceguide.com, people can submit questions to you 24/7 directly and get pretty direct feedback. So just as a little bonus for the listeners, what are some of the most common questions that you're getting through the portal from some of the dental insurance guy members? Well, downright is the biggest one. I mean, that's the biggest one by far. I get a ton of people send the EOVs of cases they're having problems with. They want feedback. They want some changes to their narratives, what documentation are they missing? How do they appeal and get the case paid? Those are the biggest two by far. The rest of them, I mean, I get some really interesting questions every day, and they're fun because most offices have similar challenges, but they all have their own unique challenges given a case that went this way or their specific insurance or their employers in this area have some weird policy that the insurers are doing. So those are the biggest ones. I will say though, if you really want, you can go, and again, for free, just go look at the course list, and the reason most of those courses are on there is because at one point, those were the top requested questions. And then once I put a course on there, guess what? We stopped getting the questions because they could go watch the course whenever they want to get their answer. I think if somebody was struggling in their office, and let's say you went into their office, I think by making some pretty basic general changes in how they do things, those little changes can have such a huge impact. And so many people think that the insurance game is super complicated, and there are some nuances that may be. But for the most part, the conversation that we're having where you're telling me is if you did some basic things, that could have a drastic effect on your profit margin and the bottom line. I loved like, and I wanted to go back to just the idea of documentation. In this day and age, with so many of us, everything being digital, whether you're chartered, there's really no reason that you shouldn't have an impeccable chart note. I think they think that a lot of people miss out on, I'd love to get your take on it, that we, even in our pediatric office, do a lot of our intro oral photos. Like, you got your next raise you before or after, and I think you may have been the one at a meeting we talked about, talking about sometimes, listen, midway, like as you're about to start that procedure, take a picture of what it looks like when you're drilling away the decay, like, I may not have the time figures, my patients aren't always the most cooperative, but for most adults, to grab that intro oral camera and take a picture. So if somebody's denying something and you're showing in this photo, also for your patient's great education tool, but saying, how are you going to deny this? There's a huge, there's a huge illusion here. This is why I put this crown. Do you think like photos or, you know, in terms of like documentation that that should be an integral kind of part with it? I mean, I think we've all heard what's worth a thousand words. That's right. So it doesn't change anything. And the fun part is, I mean, this sort of discussed me because, you know, 10 years ago, I spent four, five, and six, three, and her camera, and now they're like 300 bucks a piece and get the same quality. I'm like, oh, it makes me sad. I've got a couple of those two. So, and they still collect us in the office because the cheap ones now are actually better than the old ones. So, you know, you're not asking out of the break, like, when my super extra blogger is going to tell us, I mean, I'm kind of sad about 300 bucks, but I'm not as sad as I would about six thousand. So, but yeah, we have one in literally every opportunity, because, and here's the one thing I think I'll ever have disagreed with you on. And I'm going to argue this one for you. Your kids, you have plenty of time to spend 10 seconds to grab that picture, let go and move on. Yeah. Oh, we do it. We do it. Just sometimes all the procedure. I was saying, we have a procedure. I like to think about it. Procedure. You have the time, I guarantee, because here's here's the biggest answer I'll say, because I get people that now legitimately go, why am I documenting this for interest? Well, you're not. You're documenting this for your own collections. You're documenting this for your own protection with the board and with yours. And probably more personally, you're documenting this for your patients or your case, your patient's parents. The fun one that comes up all the time that is really difficult to deal with as a clinician. Doc, my tooth didn't hurt until you screwed it up. Wait a minute. Well, that's really hard to describe to a patient. I don't. I just go, okay, well, let's look at what was inside your tooth. I pull up that picture, I stick it on the big screen, and I shut my mouth. And almost every time it's like the patient's like, oh, you, that was my tooth. I'm like, yeah, what's all that black stuff? That's the cavity. Because I want my tooth hurts? Yes. And then the conversation's done. I mean, it's like, okay, what are we doing now? I don't have to argue it. I don't have to defend myself because the photo does it. And the same thing for parents, it's, you know, you get good documentation for talking, you know, visual documentation. Yeah, we solve so many problems in the office for what? The cost of 300 bucks and 10 seconds. Documented didn't happen, right? Yeah, that's my best tool in the office. It's, I think my intro camera is more important than my handpiece. I mean, just edits. Especially from an education value creation, like they at least know what, so it goes come in full circle. When you're giving them that higher estimate, just in case, they've seen that picture. They've seen it on the big screen. They know what you're going to be doing, and it's a much easier cell because you're, you're showing your just selling knowledge. For those that might be on the, and I'm going to give, again, another shameless plug, I definitely would recommend everybody checking out the dentalstearnsky.com, not just for the free content, but, you know, it's actually pretty affordable to join and to have access to the amount of content and honestly to have access to you, if there's anybody that's kind of maybe on the fence or doesn't know as much about the website, give yourself a little plug, like tell them a little bit of what are some of the key factors that they can consider and, and see if that would be a resource for their, their practice. So there are over 40 recorded videos that you can watch whenever on the site. This site is super expensive at 30 a month. It is, you can do monthly. It's a little bit less expensive than you do annual, but you can do monthly. So I've had before people go, well, can I demo it? I'm like, yeah, you can. For $30, you can give one month and then access almost anything you want. If you don't like it, great. $30, whatever. So, but the fun part is the same as the background of the site. We have like a 97%. I mean, it's right. I mean, yeah. We've got pretty huge now, which is fun. And that was all ideas to make it such an easy thing to do because Michael on this wasn't to make a ton of money. It was to make a change in the industry, help people understand what needs to be done to make their life easier. This made our life easier. And so it's been a lot of fun. And we've never had complaint about the pricing. We've never had complaints about the content. By the way, we do add a new video every month. I am on their line once a month. We did it earlier today. Answer questions and giving content on some new topic. And then, yeah, I'm answering questions literally, well, almost literally every day. I mean, occasionally, I'm out of town. But every day on the Q&A that's on there, that people send me questions, or they have me look through their contract, or they have me help them with the claim that they're having challenges with. And I get a couple dozen of those a day, and they're fun because I don't know. I'm waiting. I'm right. You think it's fun because I don't think that's fun at all. And I think that's a well spent 30 bucks. And doctors, if you don't think it is, ask your treatment coordinators, or your office managers, they will gladly stop bugging you for that 30 bucks a month. So I would highly recommend it. Travis, this was a fantastic, very real conversation. Thank you for raking some of that stuff down. One of the things that I don't think people know is, you know, I'm a super dental nerd, right? So I'm on all the socials, viewing all these different dental groups. And oftentimes, questions about insurance and stuff come up. And whether that's somehow like a bat signal for you, but I love the fact that you're really active on social media, and you'll get on there, and you'll just answer the question. And it's funny because some people will be so adamant about something. And then as soon as you come in with your comment, everybody's like, well, that's obviously the answer because Travis Campbell just said so, because we know that nobody else in our industry is doing the amount of research. So If in addition to dentalinsuranceguide.com, tell everybody some of your social media Candles and following if people wanted to follow you a little bit more closely or get some more information about what you've got going on I mean, I'm on Facebook more than anything and just as stripes Campbell. That's it. I mean it is me It's funny because I hear people all the time go how do you have time and do anything? I'm like I actually spend less than an hour on social media every day And it's usually less than 30 minutes And yes, I do get to answer all our questions But a lot of it's because I figured out the background of Facebook and how to dive into the exact things I want How to do searches a lot of people now tag me. So I mean, that's an easy one is I just give an email that goes Somebody tagged you and I go, oh click. I mean perfect insurance push. I am guilty of that I any time when it comes up. I'm tagging immediately. It's fun because I used to there was a She years ago. I've probably spent three and four hours some days and that was getting my wife to be upset with me out legitimately So I spend a lot less time now But I think the reach is further just because I figured out how to make the platform actually work for me So I'm rarely just actually almost never scroll through feeds I'm answering basically answering emails because Facebook also mean email of this and I go click on it and then I go answer it And a lot of the questions I answer. I've probably answered before and so that's one of the other fun background on You know, there's guys having all this stuff is a lot of times I just go cut and paste. You know, yeah, because we tend to have the same Problems all the time with you know insurance and running of practice and things like that. I enjoy it It's it's it was originally a fun little pastime and it morphed it to you know a business and you know being a little more formal about helping people But I mean I got into the industry to help patients. I got into this to help clinicians So well, we definitely appreciate it. So to all the listeners out there go check out dental insurance guy.com Feel free apparently to tag Travis in any of your social media posts Make sure you follow him while you're at it. Make sure you follow the dental slang podcast And also give me a follow at Dr. Reza Artilan on Instagram and we appreciate having you guys listen Travis, thank you so much for the great conversation. Appreciate you having on and all of our listeners We'll catch you next time on the dental slang podcast