24: The Delphi Murders: Did They Get the Wrong Guy?

Of all of the cases that we've covered over here on 10 To Life, there are very few that are more publicized, more controversial, or more heartbreaking than the case we're talking about today. And it is the case of the brutal murders of Abby Williams and Libby German. Abby and Libby, they were best friends and they were only 13 and 14 years old when their lives were viciously taken from them. Taken from them when they were out on what should have just been a normal happy walk along the trails in Delphi, Indiana. And one of the most shocking things about this case is how long it took for an arrest to even happen. Despite massive searches and despite intense public attention, I mean, it took five years before anybody was arrested. Five years. I mean, that is a lot of time for rumors to spread, for people to start questioning the investigation, and also for some extremely sketchy characters to just like crawl out of the woodwork. Now, the last time that we covered this case, it was back in 2023 when a suspect was finally arrested. But since then, this case has literally exploded. There has not only been a huge trial, but a huge country or, you know, world divided. Because yes, many people believe that justice has finally been served for Abby and Libby, but others are convinced that the police, they got the wrong guy. And in the meantime, there's also been leaked photos, crazy jail calls, recorded confessions, rumors about cults, alleged setups. I mean, it has been absolute chaos. Also, when I was out on my live tour last fall, one of the most highly requested cases that I reopen and re-examine is this case. The Delphi murders. Just because I think how controversial it is and how so many people do believe that they got it all wrong, that Richard Allen isn't the guy, that it's somebody else entirely. So today, we are reopening this case and we are breaking down everything, the suspect, the confessions, the trial, also the evidence on both sides of the argument. This case is incredibly complex and incredibly controversial, so my goal today isn't to tell you to believe one thing over the other, but rather it's to break down all of the facts and really walk you through the arguments on both sides and determine what you think is true. As always, I encourage you to please do your own research, form your own opinions, come to your own conclusions, and please keep it civil in the comment section over on YouTube as well. The ultimate goal is always to honor Abby and Libby by telling their story, and I think we can all agree that that can't accurately and successfully happen when other people are just like attacking one another. So please keep it respectful even though I know that there are a lot of very passionate opinions out there. Also, as a quick reminder, in these reopened episodes, we revisit the original deep dive and then we drop in every new update along the way. I also will jump on and give some hindsight as to previous things that I've stated or shared or if my opinions have changed. So you may hear some differences in the audio just due to the equipment changing over time, but so you know, also in one of my very first episodes, when I ever cover this case, I completely mispronounced Delphi Indiana and I called it Delphi, Indiana. So you might hear that a little bit too. It is Delphi. So bear with me, bear with past Annie on that, give her a little bit of grace. She doesn't always get the city names, right? That was very, very early on like that was even before 2023. I think that that was like, I don't even know, it was forever ago. So anyway, with that said, we have a lot to get into today. So get ready because this is a really complicated one. I'm Annie Elise. This is 10 to life and today we are reopening the Delphi murders. Let's jump right in. Abby Williams and Libby German were two best friends living in Delphi, Indiana. Abby was 14 years old and Libby was 13 years old and Abby was apparently an absolute animal lover. I am talking she loved everything outdoors. She loved all sorts of animals and just was you know, one with nature. She lived with her mom full time and loved spending time with her grandparents as well. And Libby, Libby was described as just the sweetest and kindest little girl. She lived with her grandparents and with her sister Kelsey, who she was extremely close with. And she was just a pretty happy, go lucky little girl. So the two of them were best friends and they went to middle school together and really just had all of the same common interests. They were excited about the upcoming softball season. They were excited about playing the saxophone, which it's like how hard is it to find somebody else who loves playing the saxophone at a young age like that. They loved photography, painting, really just everything. Any hobbies that one of them had the other loved equally as much. So the two of them spent so much time together and they really were truly just the best of friends. Now Delphi, Indiana, let's talk a little bit about that location. Delphi is a very small town in Indiana. It's less than three square miles in size and has less than 3,000 residents according to a census that was done back in 2019. So a very, very tight-knit community. And that's where they loved. That's where they grew up and everybody was friendly with each other and it was just, you know, reportedly a great town to be a part of. But on February 12, 2017, everything would just start to unravel and rock these two little girls world and their families lives. So on February 12, the two little girls decided to have a sleepover at Libby's grandparents house. The next day was actually going to be a school holiday from unused snow days. So they wanted to hang out, have a sleepover and then spend the entire next day together. So they ended up spending that evening with Libby's older sister Kelsey. They hung out with Kelsey. Eight pizza stayed up and just had, you know, a typical girl's sleepover night. You're watching movies, you're talking about boys, you're, you know, messaging people, you're eating pizza just like an innocent happy sleepover. But they had absolutely no idea what the next day would bring. The next morning, they woke up and they enjoyed pancakes for breakfast and they then just started their day. They helped Libby's grandma Becky actually with filing some of her filing work because they wanted to make a little extra money, possibly go shopping later that day. So they did this, they helped with the filing, but then they decided that they wanted to head out and go enjoy the day outside. And they wanted to go to Monin High Bridge Trail. And this trail was essentially like the spot for teenagers to hang out at. We all had one. We already, we everybody had one in high school and even in middle school. And here everyone always wanted to hang out there and it was really well known. It was an old abandoned railway bridge and it had trails all along it. And it was just the spot that people would go to. So Abby and Libby asked grandma Becky if they could go and grandma Becky told them that they could go, but only if they could find rides to and from the trail. She did not want them walking on their own. So Libby asked her sister Kelsey if she would take them. And Kelsey initially had said no, she had afternoon plans with her boyfriend that later that day. But then she ended up having a little bit of guilt for not spending a ton of time with Libby. So she says, you know, I'll take you guys and I'll drop you off if you can find a ride home. So then Libby decided to call her dad Derek, who happened to actually be taking photos of grandma Becky later that day. And she asked him if he could pick them up. Her father Derek said that once he was done with grandma Becky, he would pick them up and that it would be approximately, you know, two hours in total. So now Libby and Abby had their rides. They were going to head out to the trail and have a fun day out away from school. School was closed and they were just going to enjoy the outside. So they all piled into Kelsey's car around 1.30 p.m. and Kelsey drove them to the trail. On the way, Kelsey had received a phone call from her boyfriend while she was on her way to drop the girls off. So she takes the call around 1.38 p.m. and then she was still on the phone with her boyfriend around 1.40 p.m. when she dropped the girls off at the entrance to this trail. So she made sure that both girls had their jackets and Kelsey and Libby told each other that I love you because their family always made sure to voice their love for one another. And she stayed watching the girls enter the trail before them driving off. At 205 p.m. Libby posted a photo on her Snapchat story of the bridge and then she posted another photo at 207 p.m. just two minutes later of Abby walking on the bridge. And at some point Libby began taking a video on her cell phone through her camera roll app, you know, the video app. And in the beginning of the video, they were talking about, you know, typical teenage stuff, just girl stuff. But then in the video, you can actually see a man walking with blue jeans and a jacket on and he's walking along the bridge. But the angle of the video almost makes it seem like Libby took this video of the man behind her. Then you hear the guy say, "Guys, down the hill." Now since our last update, the entire video that Libby took has been released and it really does give us more insight into the girl's last moments. See, this is the path. There's no path going there, so we have to get on here. So who was this man? It seems as though she was purposely videoing him, was this something that she was doing for her own safety to like video him to make sure he was on film, was she doing it out of fear? Why was she filming this man? And more importantly, who was he and why was he telling them to go down the hill? And this was the last time that the girls were ever seen alive. At 3.11pm, about an hour and a half since they were dropped off at the trail, Libby's dad, Derek, called Libby's phone to let her know that he was getting close and he was going to be there to pick her up. But there was no answer on her phone. So he pulled into the parking lot at 3.14pm and then he called her. Again, there was still no answer. And the girls were also not at the meetup spot that they had originally agreed upon. So obviously her dad, Derek, is very concerned because what teenage girl is not answering her phone or her text messages, especially this day and age when teens are literally always on the phone. And we know that she was very active on her phone on Snapchat, posting photos, taking videos, all of these things. So Libby wasn't the type of girl to just blow off family phone calls or texts either. So Derek decided he was going to walk these trails and see if he could find the girls because something felt wrong here. Derek passed a man who was in a flannel on the trails and asked him if he had seen the two girls. The guy said that he did not, but that he did see a couple up there. Now this area was an intersection of the trail where the 505 and 501 trail meet. So when this man in the flannel shirt, whose name has never officially been released, said that he didn't see the girls, Derek decided to take one of those paths, the 505 trail, thinking that maybe they must have gotten on that one instead. But when he couldn't find them on that trail, he became much more concerned and knew that something was not right. He called Becky, Libby's grandmother, and asked her if she could try to get a hold of Libby. And Grandma Becky was actually with Libby's aunt Tara at the time. So they began calling Libby trying to get in touch with her, texting her, but they had no luck. They were completely unsuccessful. So then Derek, as he's continuing to search these trails, decides that he's going to check the Freedom Bridge Trail, and this was part of the area. But the girls weren't there either. But this was frightening. He was extremely nervous, and this is when the family started freaking out. Nobody was answering their phone calls. Nobody was answering their text messages. He couldn't find them anywhere. It's beginning to start to get dark. This is a problem, and they are panicking at this point. Where were these two young girls? Something had to be seriously wrong for them not to answer their phones and not to show up at the meeting spot. So Grandma Becky calls Libby's grandpa Mike, who left work to come and see if he could help. And Grandma Becky also called Libby's sister Kelsey to let her know that they needed help searching for these girls. So Kelsey immediately leaves her boyfriend's house who she had plans with that afternoon. She called into work and she went to help search. Everyone made their way over to these trails to go and search for these girls. Kelsey and her uncle Cody were paired together and they were searching the southeast end of the bridge. They were actually near a private property and spent about 20 to 30 minutes yelling the girls name, just trying to search for them anywhere they could be. Kelsey also called Libby's phone thinking that if Libby was there, she would hear the phone since it was relatively quiet outside. And Grandma Becky spent her time calling AT&T to see if they could ping Libby's phone to see if there was a known location. But of course, cell phone companies get very, very finicky about this kind of stuff. And legally, they're not able to give you the ping until they have a formal request from the police. So this was unsuccessful. Grandma Becky even tried downloading certain apps like Find My Phone, Things Like That. But she realized that it wouldn't have worked because Libby didn't have those apps installed on her phone. So now hours have gone by guys. And at 5.20pm, literally over two hours later, the family decides it's time to call the police and report the girls is missing. By 6pm, news had gotten around that small town and people were obviously freaking out. It was a very small town. And how could these two girls just mysteriously vanish? In such a small town where everyone seemingly knew everyone. And the big positive about living in such a small town was definitely the sense of community. Because everybody rallied together and started volunteering and searching for these girls, trying to crowdsource information, trying to hit the trails, trying to do anything they could to figure out what had happened. Police were paying so much attention to this investigation. They were not letting a minute slip by. They had Libby's grandpa Mike go back to his house and get every single electronic device from that house so that they could search it. They were also beginning to process that formal request for AT&T to ping the cell phones. So not only were volunteers and police on the ground searching, they had also pulled out drones. They were firefighters. They were even trained water personnel out there searching. But by midnight, it became way too dangerous to continue the search, given how dark it was and given how woodsy the area is. So law enforcement called off the official physical search of the girls with plans to resume the search the following day. And at this point, they had said that they did not suspect any sort of foul play. Because at that point, they really didn't have much to go off of. But still, this is so scary. They're now closing out the day. You're calling off the search. There's two young teens out there missing. Even if there isn't any sort of foul play to be suspected, you know something is wrong. And then to just, as a family member, try to go through the night or sleep that night, which you're obviously not sleeping. But knowing that nobody's out there searching, it's, that has to be just extremely devastating. The police continued working on paying the phones. But at some point, the phone had died, meaning that there were not going to be any sort of updated pings done or in the area or anywhere for that matter. And even though that official search was called off, it didn't stop the family, the volunteers, or the firefighters. And they all stayed and searched throughout the night. And that is again just a huge testament to the sense of community in this town. That morning, the search was called back on. And more and more volunteers were showing up and helping with the search efforts. They were being split up into search groups. And then they had a meeting at a command center that was set up to where everybody would go and then get distributed and then come back and report back information. Well, at around 1215 PM, footsteps led searchers to a horrible discovery. And it was the discovery of the bodies of Abby and Libby. A volunteer searcher had found a shoe of Libby's. And when he looked up, there were actually two deer in the grass. As he got closer, he saw the two girls laying in between the trees in the woods. The girls were found on a private property near the high bridge. And they were about 50 feet from the shore of deer creek, which wasn't far from where Abby and Libby had actually initially been dropped off. But it was also somewhere that they would not have wandered off and gone on their own. By 2 PM, law enforcement had a press conference stating that they did in fact find two bodies, but they did not confirm that it was Abby and Libby. And from there, the FBI immediately got involved. Autopsies began on February 15 in Indiana, and a positive identification was made on both girls. And then the search was officially over. From there, this now turned into a double homicide investigation. On February 22nd, a press conference was held about the murders and law enforcement pleaded with the public to come forward with any information that they had. They assured the public that the investigation was just getting started. So that they needed to be patient and that they would absolutely not give up. And they would find whoever was responsible for these two deaths. They also released the audio clip to the public during this press conference. In July of 2017, they ended up releasing a sketch of who they believed to be the suspect. Tips continued to come in, but no real leads were generated. For over a year and a half after that sketch was released, investigators combed through thousands of tips, but nothing generated. And on April 22nd, 2019, over a year and a half later, in a press conference, investigators replaced the original sketch. And this was a brand new sketch, but who was this person in this brand new sketch who looked entirely different from the person in the first sketch? It caused a lot of controversy and people were, of course, very, very upset by this. And they were very confused wondering how something like this could have happened. So the first sketch could look so much like one person and now it's being replaced with this new sketch who looks like somebody completely different. Had it they been looking for the wrong person this entire time? Then after years of essentially no new information, the case seemed to ramp up again after a new person of interest and turned at the public eye. 29-year-old Keegan Klein was an internet catfish that would use various fake accounts to chat with underaged girls. It was also discovered that he was actually chatting with Libby the day of the murders and had even told another girl that he was supposed to meet up with Libby that very day. Keegan was later arrested and charged with possessing child material and given 43 years in prison. But since then, he has been ruled out as a suspect in the murders of Abby and Libby. Many people believed that the fact that an online predator just happened to be the last person to speak with Libby before the murders was too coincidental. Some thought that even if Keegan didn't commit the crime himself, that he was somehow connected to the real killer. And some people thought that the real killer was right under the police's noses the entire time. It turns out that Abby and Libby's bodies were found on property belonging to him. to a man named Ron Logan, and Ron's history, it was not exactly squeaky clean. On March 8, 2017, law enforcement interviewed an ex-girlfriend of Ron's. The two of them hadn't spoken in two years prior to this interview that law enforcement had with her, and this woman had actually told law enforcement in this interview that she had left Ron because he became physically abusive. She alleged that he had actually gone so far as to drag her out of the car by her hair. She said that once she left Ron, he stalked her and harassed her. And Ron's alibi for where he was at the time of the murders, it turned out to be really sketchy. On February 14, the day that the girls were found, Ron called his cousin and asked him to tell the police that he had picked up Ron around two to two thirty in the afternoon on the 13th, which was the day of the murders, more specifically the afternoon of the murders. And he asked his cousin to say that he had picked him up to take him to an aquarium store in Lafayette, and that then they returned to the house around five or five thirty that night. Now what was Ron doing that he needed his cousin to lie for him and provide him with an alibi? When law enforcement searched Ron's phone, they found that at two o' nine p.m., just two minutes after Libby posted the photo of Abby walking, Ron's phone made a call. They could not confirm his exact location, but the phone appeared to be in or around his property and around high bridge where the girls went missing. He then sent a text at 7.56 p.m. the night of the murder. The analysis of the phone showed that he was likely outside of his actual house and in the area where the girls' bodies were found. He also received a text that night at 10.16 p.m., that same night of the murder. And yet again, the analysis of the phone showed that he was likely outside of his actual house and in the area where the girls were found on his property. Perhaps this is when he was moving the bodies or was finishing staging them. But as compelling as that evidence was, Ron was never arrested or even named as a suspect. And that's because in 2022 Ron actually died from COVID. So as other suspects came to light after his death, many people started to believe that Ron had nothing to do with the girls at all. But other people aren't so sure, with some even claiming that Ron actually confessed to the murders. But now that Ron has passed away, we may never know the full truth about whether he had any involvement. But honestly, I have to say, regardless of who committed the murders, it is pretty insane how many gross men these two innocent girls crossed paths with in like a single day. I mean, there was a known child predator actively trying to set up a meeting with Libby on the day of the murders. And then, both girls are found on a property belonging to a man with a history of domestic violence who was also lying about his alibi. So even if neither a Kegan nor Ron was the girls killer, it's crazy that these poor girls were even near them on the day of their murder. It's just such a scarier reminder of how many dangerous people are truly out there hiding in plain sight. But with Kegan apparently ruled out and Ron dead, the investigators were basically back to square one. And there was intense pressure from the public to finally find Abby and Libby's real killer. And then finally, on October 26th, 2022, more than five years after the murders, there was finally a huge break in the case. Police announced the arrest of a new suspect, a man named Richard Allen, a 50-year-old CVS worker from Delphi. "Sell them do I have prepared remarks, but today is different because I do not want there to be any confusion or ambiguity with what I will say. Today is not a day to celebrate, but the arrest of Richard M. Allen of Delphi on two counts of murder is sure a major step in leading to the conclusion of this long term and complex investigation." And as it turns out, the name Richard Allen, it wasn't new to the police either. Richard actually gave a voluntary statement to investigators just a couple of days after the murders. He admitted to being on the bridge that day, but he said that he was just there to walk around. "Then you almost understand what was going on on Monday, February 13th. We kind of saw what you were doing that day and remember the day the girls, okay, I don't know, it's real. I went over to my mom's in Peru, Mexico, earlier in the day. I think my mom had a hip surgery back then or something that, regardless, my life is working from November, but today, not the day. I spent the morning with them. Much of it should come over and they were going to go eat lunch and stop, and I wasn't about that. So I went home and I remember it was very early one day, or the normal. So I think I just put it back on and went back out to the trails. Usually when we go, we walk down the high bridge and walk back and walk down the other side and come back. I mean, it wasn't a bridge at all, but I remember walking down to the bridge. The time, I left them longer, probably around the 11th and 11th and 15th. So I think I've been out there because I didn't do anything else that were there around me and I thought it was when I was out there. Walked down the high bridge, always went out just a little ways, a little way, went out a little ways and watched the fish. See if I see any fish down there because I like fish and walk back and sit on the, when you turn around, go down the other porch, there's a bench that overlooks and sit there for a few minutes and walk down the, walk back out and left. I think I was there probably around noon. It could have been a little bit warning or a lot of noon. Walked down back an hour, so probably 113, 145 depending on exactly what time it was that I got there that day. I just remember walking down the trail and I told him that when I was approaching the trail, the trail had I guess is what I'd call it. There was three girls walking off the trail and I just remember looking like one of them was probably watching them. They said, "Look, watching the other two because they looked a little younger." And they looked very similar. I don't know if they were, if there's no one I ever but the other one didn't necessarily. But I remember seeing them walking off the trail head and I didn't really see anybody. I walked down, like I said, I look at the water, I walk back and I said, "Look what if they walk behind me?" I guess, but I said on that bench that overlooks the creek bed and all that. But the evidence started stacking up against Richard pretty quickly. For starters, the clothes that Richard admitted he was wearing that day, they just so happened to match exactly what the man in Libby's bridge video was wearing. There were also surveillance photos of a black 2016 Ford Focus that had been parked outside the trails that day, the day of the murders. And it turns out that in all of Delphi in 2017, there was only one black 2016 Ford Focus. And it was registered to Richard Allen. There's a lot here that we need to get clarified, okay? As you well know, we have pictures of an individual who is on the bridge. And to some degree, you describe that individual as wearing yourself as wearing a blue jeans jacket of the same color as that. They described it hat, hard to dispute, but they're 10 brown, okay? And this picture was taken with a phone of one of the girls. Okay, I understand that. And the question needs to be, is that you? Is it taken with the girl's phone? I mean, it's not me, but I never have met these girls before, so even if I thought it looked like me, if it's taken with the girl's phone, there's no way could be. I've never met her. I've never seen them. This image, this person right here, he's wearing like a card heart jacket just like you just told us. Okay, he's wearing the same clothing that you just told us. We just need to know what happened. Why church? I mean, I said I was wearing blue jeans. Now, I think blue jeans is a pretty common thing that people wear. And I said I was probably wearing a black or a blue coat. It could have been a card heart, a zip up with a hoodie in it. I had black ones, I had a blue one or a blue one or a black one. I guess, you know, I told you I was wearing the same that that's me in it. So, the other kind of, in your service, you wear only the, like that is a, you want me to say that's my car. We look at the, we're not wearing a car. It matches everything. That's not, that is your car. Okay, well I'm saying that picture, it's like, okay, yeah, no, there's zero doubt. What was that, you know, I don't even know what we have and why we need to eliminate it. And then there was a witness who saw someone matching Richard's description walking along the side of the road on the day of the murders. They saw this person covered in mud and blood. They have people that saw him. Okay. They said you were out on the bridge yourself. There aren't that many people that saw me. I mean, I'm starting to miss that many people. If they walked behind me, I guess, you said that you were out on the bridge, this bridge, yourself that day around the time when this happened. No, I didn't. You said you walked out onto the bridge. When we talked to you earlier, you said that you walked out to about the first platform where it's in that area of the bridge. That's what she's told us. So we know that you were on the bridge. Okay. And with that, I mean, we can say that is this person you, that's the question. Is that person you? That's the question we have to answer. Sure. Okay. So if that person is you, we know this person follows the girls all the way to the others by the bridge and then told them to go down the hill, the question is, is this you? No. Okay. So if you're telling me that this person was out there on the bridge, it's the same clothing that you have. You can't tell that the black carhark told a blue carhark told a pole over. I told you I could have been wearing this. The two kinds of clothing you said you wore that day was a either black carhark or a blue carhark. Okay. You said my blue jeans, right? I'm okay. And I've had it. Okay. So put yourself in my chair. I'm not going to say I wasn't wearing a black carhark that day. I told you I could have been, I didn't know if that was a black carhark and if it was not mine, it is. And you said you had a half, you normally wear a 12-cap, it's every day, I said I carry one. There is. So if I was wearing one, it would be like a 12-cap or a small one, if I had a half or something. Okay. So this is the situation we're at. Okay. You're not going to find anything that ties me to those murders so I'm not really that concerned. You know, you went from trying to, I don't know what you want to say, get my truck and then we were in the town and I killed somebody and I'm not going to do it. After the initial interrogation, police got a search warrant for Richard's house and car. And inside, they found a jacket matching the one scene in the bridge video, a huge collection of knives and also over 20 different cell phones, which why the hell would anyone need that many cell phones, right? They also found a gun, specifically a SIG sour handgun. And this was a huge red flag because an unspent bullet was found at the crime scene between the two girls' bodies. And according to police, that bullet was a perfect match for Richard's gun. I want to talk about the results of your handgun, okay? So we took your gun. Here's where we got our SIG and we sent it down to the lab to have it match with an item that we located on February the 14th when we found the girls. And that item was a 40 caliber Winchester round. We found that at the scene. The extraction marks on that round match your gun. So this is the round, there's the extraction marks. That's the best picture of them, there's actually three of them. That's the other, that's the somewhere around that we found, okay? And like I said, the methodology that they use a scientific and they're telling me, and this is the report, you can read it if you wish, I don't need to read it. Okay. Well, I'm just trying to help you, and let me tell you, you know, the prosecutor and the other investigators, they want to, they want to see you lock, lock you up, throw away the key. I don't think you're ridiculous. Listen, just listen to me for two minutes, let me explain this to you. I'm on your side. I talked to you a little bit out there in the scene. I know. I know you mentioned a couple times, you don't want to be the fall guy for this. You also mentioned to me the other day when I was telling you, hey, I want to check the property out, make sure there's no damage and you said, it doesn't matter, it's over. You know, you make comments like that to me that really concerned me. Sure. Right. It's concerning. And I mean, by its over, is that you've already started something here that there's no backing out of, so you've done, the damage is done, I guess, is what I'm saying. That's what I would have been referring to. Okay. And I agree with that. We have started this. We've been working on this for a long time and all the evidence is clearly indicating you're involved in this. And listen to me, Rick, I don't believe you should be the fall guy. But all the evidence, you say you're out there, we have witnesses out there, we have your vehicle, we have experts, we have experts to say that's you on the video and that's your voice on the video. Okay. Experts. Not me. I'm not an expert. Okay. And now we have your round. Mm-hmm. I have to see him. I'm not on the bridge. You said you're on the bridge. I don't even know how my bullet, we're gotten out there, if that's my bullet. There's, it's without a doubt that this is very okay, scientific. So let me show you a picture of this round where it was found. That's the round right there. It had been out there very long. That is Liberty's put. It's within six inches of one of the dead girl's bodies. There's no way. There isn't. I'm telling you, there's not. How did, how did that round get there, Rick? I don't know how the round got there, but I'm telling you is, if that is truly what you're saying it is, it's not my, it's not my round. The scientific experts are saying, I got a report saying that that round came from your death. Okay. But understand this, you were on the bridge. I told you I was on the bridge. Listen. Right now, like I said, I got a prosecutor and investigators right now. I'll knock you up. And if you don't give us an narrative, if you don't tell us your side of the story, there's two sides of every story. Hang on. I'm trying to help you. I get that. The media is going to portray you as a monster and you don't want your wife. And it's all right. I'm going to get there anyway. Yeah. So this is your chance to tell us exactly what. I like some, some people, most people. I care what people think about me and. And you do. Have you already set that ball rolling? Yeah, but there's only one way to get out in front of it and that's to tell the truth. What happened that day? I can't tell you why happened that day. You can't tell us. There's no doubt in my mind that the evidence clearly indicates that you're involved in this. Are you the mastermind behind this? I don't know. Mastermind. Okay. Did somebody else set this up? I don't know, Rick. I want to know. And only you know. The truth will set you free. That's it. Yeah. The truth will protect you from them. Well, that's what I would have thought. Well, tell the truth. Tell me how this round got next to one of our girls in between both groups. I don't know. You do know. And if you don't tell me, you're going down for this. Okay. The only person I think can explain it all this is you when you're not explaining it to me. I don't know what it is. You want me to explain it. What were you doing on the bridge? How did you around get there and why did you kill these two girls? Hey, why were you involved in this? What was your involvement? I had no idea. I don't think, Rick, listen, Rick, I don't think you're the one that killed them. I don't think you're the one that stuck to life in them. Are you? I do. Are you going to die? Really? Are you? No. I, anybody that knows me knows I could never, even if I wanted to do something like that. That's not who I am. Then what happened? I can't tell you. How do you expect me to tell you want me to make up a story and-- No, the truth. The truth is simple. You don't have to make that up. You just go back and tell me the truth. I've told you that this event has not been weighing on you for years and years and years. You're out there. I told you that I don't know what you want me to do at this point. I did not murder two women. I don't think you realize this is a barrier this year. You realize the death penalty is on the table for this? You know what? I don't really care about living at this point. I dealt with not wanting to live for seven, eight years now. It's been a long fucking battle. With what you guys have done to me, kill me. I don't give a fuck. You'll make my wife rich. So is there a reason why you have this ground in your little keepsake box? What kind of ammo did you have for your cig? I don't know. Laser. I don't know. I'm telling you. At that time, you had Winchester. Okay. The Royal Leaf Alice Winchester, the ammo you had in. Your gun and for your gun at the time was blazer, but this was a winchester said right there winchester. Same exact type around. We've been saying this. I know I'm just giving you opportunity. Like I said, the wife's me a least please talk to me. You know, she says ever since 2017. She's saying that you didn't want to go. She didn't you wouldn't let her go on the search party. She wanted to help. Oh, she's saying that I think I know my wife. Well, I'm just telling you. She wants me to bring her in and tell you she's telling the truth about what happened. You didn't tell her, but you've lied to her for years is how she feels right now. Because in your depression is getting considerably worse since this incident, which is this has been going on for seven, eight years now, but it's getting worse since since it's got really bad. I could see why I filtered two girls. Oh my God. I would have depression too. Well, I'm going to have mental issues too. I'm sure you will live in with this. I'm sure you would. And that's where you are. Here's what I think, Rick. I don't know. Only you know, but here's my theory. You're out there. Maybe somebody set this up. Maybe they didn't. Maybe you're out there. Maybe we know you're out there. That's that's not a theory. That's a fact. We know you had a gun. We're all sold. We're gone in there. We know you. We know you have anger issues with your wife towards before that you have some anger issues and you have depression and you have, you know, those types of issues. And maybe this girl said something to you. I don't know. Maybe you said go down the hill, which we know the experts say you said go down the hill. You get down there and they, you know, they piss you off the whatever reason you racked the gun. You didn't realize you racked that gun to scare him and that round popped out. He didn't realize it. Because maybe do you carry that gun with a with a round chamber? Or do you not have a chamber? When I carry it, I would have a round chamber. So you don't have to carry. Well, you were carrying it that day because you were sick. So if you have one chamber and what I'm saying is if you have a round chamber, which I do and I racked this gun right now, where I'm fully intact, ramble popped out. Correct. I said no. Well, that's what's happened. You didn't realize it. Okay. And that's what it sounds there. And this is your opportunity. And you say that you don't want to do this. And then you please stop giving me opportunities. I'm not going to say I'm going to tell you I did something I didn't do. Okay, tell me I'm not going to tell you I'm involved with something. Tell me what you do. Tell me what you do on that day. Help me. I didn't help my two little girls. What did you do? I went for a walk on the trail. Can I went on? Then Richard's wife Kathy was brought into the interrogation room. Now she is so devastated by the evidence that it is difficult to even hear what she is saying. So if you're listening to this episode on audio and you want to follow along with captions, feel free to hop over to the YouTube version because I know it could be a little bit difficult. But one especially crazy thing from this part of that interrogation is that apparently Richard originally told Kathy that he wasn't even on the bridge that day. Which we definitely know was a lie. They're trying to tell me that you actually believe that I did it. And I just can't believe that. I know. Do you think I'm not? And that's what I told them. But I can't explain something. I don't understand. I tried to explain to him that there's no way that a bullet from my gun. It was at a murder scene because it didn't happen. I didn't even have my gun that day. I want to help her. You know me. You know this isn't something I could do. And I know that you know that you don't have to tell me that I know. They really think I did this. And they want me to believe that. I know you know I didn't do this. I guess that's what I'm saying. I don't know what they're trying to do here. But I'm not going to say something that's not true. And I can't explain something that I don't understand. Then we went for me to explain it is that I don't know. Because I'm saying it's not possible. There's no way that a bullet from my gun ended up at a murder scene. I didn't murder anybody. I didn't help somebody murder anybody. You know I'm not even I'm going to say I'm trying to convince you. I know you know me. I know you know that I didn't do this had anything to do with it. Talk about scheming or something. I haven't a bullet from your gun get out there. I don't know. I know that's what they believe me. That's what they're telling me. I don't know. They said there was one in your box of that you're transferred to much. They showed me that picture too. I can't explain that. And I don't I can't either. You know what I'm trying to tell you. You want to keep asking me and I just keep telling you I can't explain it. I don't know how to explain something that isn't possible. But I know this is what I do know. I know that no bullet from my gun was connected with a murder in a shape or form. And there's no way a bullet from my gun would have been near Abby and Libby's murder or or anything else because I never even seen those girls. Period. And I didn't even have my gun that day. So that's what I'm trying to say. I don't know how to make that any clearer. I don't know how to make that any I don't know how to make somebody understand I get what he's saying. I don't have a way to explain it. And they're like there's a witness that said it was you out there. I don't know how did they know it was you and so they said they showed everything. But I'm like, of course, you're out there. If they see me out there, they see me out there. And I told him on the bridge. I told them I was on the bridge. I went out to the first trussle. That first thing that he told me so I told you weren't on it, but I didn't. It doesn't. I you're not in any trouble. You didn't do anything. I didn't do anything. Huh? I didn't know you were on it. I'm sorry. Well, don't worry about it. I don't. Huh? You told me where it's. No, I told you that I walk. I love you, baby. I don't know what they're trying to do, but I know that that's not what I told you. At this point, both Richard and the detective were getting very frustrated and things really started to boil over. Like what she do. There is no way that evidence is going to show that I can hear it. You got one piece of evidence that I can't be seen. Multiple. I'm not showing you my whole fucking hand here. I don't care. I'm showing you I've done talking. Now you're going to drag your fucking wife and your daughter through this because you're too fucking bullheaded to get out in front of this and you make a mistake. And what are the fuck happening out there? We'll never fucking know because you're too big of a fucking. So tell you I did something. Tell me that I did the truth, Rick. I told you the truth. You don't want to hear it. The evidence tells me otherwise. The evidence clearly indicates you're involved in this. I said it fucking does. It doesn't. I'm telling you that there is no way that a bullet from my gun was used in these murders. And I'm telling you that we had this fucking round on February 14, 2017 has been secured in a fucking laboratory. And we've tested other guns that people that we. I understand what you're saying. What I'm telling you is I can't explain something I don't understand. Oh, the scientist explained it for you. The lab analysis and the analysis. have explained that for you. They're saying that this round without a doubt came from your gun. Then you told me to take it from somewhere else then, because it's not possible. I did not take it from somewhere else. It was what? And it was taking us photograph. You think we fucking took us away from the fucking round and threw it down by a fucking dead girl's blood? The same fucking TV. We're involved in this. You're fucking round, say Rick. No, if you see it, you're getting pissed off, I understand. I'm going to stress off. Did you not see my wife? Did you not see these fucking two girls dead? No, it's not happening. You got fucking pissed off at them. You fucking drag them down, fucking it all. Are you fucking terrible? That's a reason, not because I'm trying to do it. Somebody. You're trying to tell me that I'm not making the fucking round shit up, Rick. It is what it is. I'm done talking, arrest me. Pass me two. Be fucking happy, too, because I try to fucking help you and you wouldn't fucking do it. Despite maintaining his innocence, Richard was then indicted by a grand jury on the murder charges. With all the evidence against him, I mean the bridge guy video, the car, the bullet, his lawyers really were scrambling to come up with a solid defense. And then in September of 2023, we got a look into their strategy, the defense strategy. And that was when they filed a 136-page document that basically laid out their theory of what they think happened to Abby and Libby. And they threw the blame in a completely different direction than anybody expected. Because what they were claiming was that Abby and Libby were sacrificed by a cult. Rumors from an alleged witness at the scene stated that there were sticks arranged on the girl's bodies, which sparked the initial speculation of a cult's involvement from the very beginning. And the new documents state that there was actually evidence discovered at the crime scene that indicates cult involvement consisting of symbols resembling runes made out of sticks and constructed with tree branches. So the defense is arguing that these symbols were clear signatures left behind by individuals in a cult called Odinism. They accused both prosecutors and several law enforcement officers of concealing information regarding the Odinist ties to the murders. I think all of us assumed that this crime scene was horrific and knew that going into it. But I don't think anyone would have been able to imagine just how heinous it actually was based on the description. According to the document, Libby was found at the base of a tree with four branches intentionally placed in a very specific and arranged pattern on her body. Libby was positioned flat on her back, nude, with her left arm stretched above her head, touching the base of the tree. Libby's hands were covered in blood. Blood spots and blood drippings were seen all over Libby's body from head to toe. Libby's right arm was placed along the side of her body. One large tree branch had been placed over her left shoulder. This branch was so long that it extended above Libby's head several feet and below her legs for several feet as well. Two smaller branches formed a V where her legs joined her body near her pelvic region, with both sides of the V extending upward toward Libby's head. The last of the four branches extended across Libby's body in a line from her right shoulder to her left shoulder. This fourth tree branch also connected with the other three branches and was placed under both branches that formed the V. Libby's neck was partially covered by this fourth branch. There appeared to be no blood spraying or dripping onto the leaves or the tree near Libby's head or near her sliced neck, making it likely that Libby had been killed at a nearby tree and then dragged to her final resting place where she was staged. The murders treated Abby very differently though. She was found just a few feet away from Libby, placed at an angle with her legs a few feet from Libby's legs. Now unlike Libby, Abby was fully clothed. In fact, Abby was dressed in Libby's sweatshirt and jeans. No blood appeared on Abby's clothing, either, meaning that she was likely murdered while naked and then dressed by the murderers after she died and after the blood had stopped coming out of her neck. Abby's hands and feet also had no blood on them. Other than the blood found around Abby's neck area where the murderers would have inflicted the fatal wound, very little if any blood was found anywhere else on Abby's body or clothing. The murders appeared to have gone to great lengths to keep Abby's body and clothing clean from blood. Abby was found on her back, however her elbows were bent, with her right and left arms both placed on her chest. Abby's left hand in arm near the left side of her face and her right hand in arm near the right side of her face. Also, her left leg was straight while her right leg was bent at the knee. The murderers also placed her bent right leg under her left leg. Then, like Libby, those involved in the murder had placed tree branches in a very specific pattern on top of Abby. The pattern looks very similar to an asterisk consisting of three tree branches all joined in the middle. At least one of those tree branches appears to have been cleanly cut by some sort of instrument, such as a saw. Rather than being split or broken by a hand or a leg or something like that, indicating that this was a preconceived plan. Then above Abby's head, there were smaller sticks that had been placed over her hair, crudely mimicking horns or antlers. The amount of blood that would be perhaps expected at this kind of crime scene based upon the location of the injuries of both girls was not visible at all. In addition to the unusual way that the girls were posed, including the stick formations placed on their bodies, another unusual marking was found on a nearby tree. A symbol that looked similar to the letter F appeared approximately four feet above the base of the tree. The F was red in color, and later DNA testing showed that the F had been painted on that tree using Libby's blood as the so-called paint. Additional blood spatter was found at the base of that same tree. All of the blood at the base of the tree appears to have been Libby's blood as well. The stick configuration on Abby resembles the ruin called Hegel. This ruin is used to depict the word "Hail". Therefore, the combination of the Hegel ruin found on Abby and the ruin that was found on the tree, when combined, would proclaim "Hail Odin". The defense team speculates that because of the lack of blood visible in the crime scene photos, especially the lack of blood concerning Abby, that the murderers may have saved the blood to be used in future rituals. But just as the defense was building their Odinism theory, a very serious wrench was thrown into their plans by Richard himself, because while in prison, Richard confessed to the murders. And I don't mean just once or in a fleeting moment or under pressure, he literally confessed over 60 times, in person, in writing, even in recorded jail calls with his wife and mom. I did it. You didn't know I did it. What? I killed Abby. I killed Abby and Libby. No, you didn't. Yes, I did. No, you didn't there. Yes, I did. I don't know why. No, you didn't. You're not feeling well. There's nothing wrong. They've messed up your mess or something there. No, I mean, I never, never did it. No, you didn't. Why would you say that? Because maybe I did. I think I did. No, you didn't. They are screwing with you there and I'm trying to get to the bottom of it. There's something wrong. You know, I'm messing with you. They are messing with your mind. They have done something to your food or they've done something to your med. They're something wrong. Did you ever say you did it? I think I know you didn't. I think I did. No, you didn't. I think I did. No, you didn't. I wish I had said it. No, you didn't. You don't know. So, exactly. They're screwing with you. They're trying to get you to say a thing. They're trying to. That's what you're lying. No, they say that. I guess. I mean, there's something wrong. There you go. I just wish they'd kill me or let me apologize. to the families at least. Dear. Don't talk anymore. Just don't talk anymore. Okay. You didn't know that I did that. What? Now. There's no way. There's no way. There's no way there. There's no way. Here, there's no way. Okay. I hope you still love me. I always would love you funny, but no. You have not done anything. And I think you are not well. So you don't need to be saying you did something you didn't do. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Well, I'm just the first time I've been able to talk to you and. I've been trying forever. Are you just going to love to call me or. I don't know what's going on. Okay. You definitely didn't know that I'm right now though. I'm just meeting Brad here for somebody. I love you, too, Han. I just know you don't have it in you to do something like that. Well, if they're messing with your meds and all that, yeah, you would. But according to the defense, Richard didn't make these confessions on his own free will. They say that Richard was coerced into making them after being held in solitary confinement. After being given psychiatric medications against his will and also because he was threatened by prison staff. And according to Richard's lawyers, this was all because the staff was full of odonist cult members, cult members who needed Richard to take the fall for the murders. They said that they personally witnessed guards wearing odonist patches and were the ones always seen with Richard. They claimed that the men wearing the patches on their uniforms were always with an earshot of any of Richard's. They believed that they possibly threatened to kill his family, which caused Richard to ask over and over in every meeting with them if his family was alive, if they were okay, and if they were safe. It was like Richard was afraid that someone was going to kill his family, possibly the odonist cult. The defense also stated that after it came out that they knew about the possible odon connection, that the guards miraculously stopped wearing those patches. The defense further said that the conditions that Richard was kept in were so poor and the guilt that he felt after falsely confessing over 60 times was so intense that his physical and mental health both started to rapidly decline. And it's true, he lost a ton of weight. He also refused to eat any of the prison meals and he refused to sleep in the prison beds. And it was weird. After each confession, his behavior would just get super weird. Like, he would start drinking out of the toilet. He would start eating paper documents from his attorneys. He even at some point was eating his own feces. So in light of Richard's declining state, his defense team quickly filed a request to have him transferred to a different facility. But the judge denied it almost immediately. And that was far from the only hurdle that the defense was up against. In October of 2023, private crime scene photos were leaked to the media. And they were leaked from the defense's own office. And these images, included images of showing exactly how Abby and Libby were found. And remember, Libby was found nude. So this wasn't just them compromising the integrity of the investigation or retraumatizing the families. It was basically distributing sexual and violent images of a child. Now, the defense blamed it on a third party, saying they stole the photos from the lawyer's office. That's who is responsible. But whether or not that's true. I mean, it's just gross, it's disgusting, and a huge violation to the girls truly. And the judge in the case felt the exact same way. The same day as the leak, the judge announced that Richard's entire defense team was withdrawing from the case. And not because they wanted to. But because the court was basically forcing them to withdraw after this leak. But a month later, Richard appealed that decision. He appealed it to the Indiana Supreme Court, arguing that by removing his original lawyers, it violated his right to a fair trial. And they actually agreed. And so his old lawyers were put right back on the case. However, the defense got an even bigger blow after that because the judge ruled that they were not allowed to bring up any single mention of Odinism, rituals, any cult behavior, none of that was going to be allowed in the trial at all. Now, we know that that was the theory that the defense was working on. That was the theory that they were relying on. So when that happened, a lot of people were kind of wondering what they were going to say in Richard's defense instead now. What were they going to use as his defense when the trial finally started on October 18th, 2024? So the trial began. And at the very beginning of the trial, the prosecutor laid out their theory of the case. And they also explained what they believe Richard's motive was. According to them, Richard intended to sexually assault the girls, but something interrupted him. So instead, he forced them down that hill before ultimately killing them. And according to the prosecution, in order to find Richard guilty, all the jury needed to do was believe his own words and his own confessions, which they argued were rock solid because those confessions included details that only the killer would have known at the time. For example, Richard mentioned that a white van had passed by as the girls were forced down the hill, also that their bodies were covered with branches. So we all know these things now if you've been following the case, but this apparently was not public knowledge. at the time of Richard's confession. So in their view, the only way that Richard could have known those specifics is if he's the one who did it. But the defense, they fired back. And they said that Richard's admissions were all cursed and that they came only after he had suffered that serious trauma in prison, including being locked in solitary confinement for 13 months and being forced to take a very intense anti-psychotic medication. They also showed the jury footage of Richard's treatment in jail, including clips of him being naked and physically restrained despite having no disciplinary infractions on record. The defense also pointed out that Richard didn't just confess to this murder. He confessed to a whole list of things that just never even happened. I mean, we're talking about claims that he shot the girls, killed his own family, sexually assaulted his sister and his daughter, that like a wide variety of things. Now, of course we know that Abby and Libby were not shot. Also, no one in Richard's family was killed. Richard's sister and daughter also testified that they had never been sexually assaulted. So why would he have admitted to so many different things that were simply untrue? Again, this was the defense's arguments. I mean, in other words, the defense was arguing that if someone is confessing to crimes that are completely false, that you can demonstrate our false, then how much weight should any of those confessions really carry, especially when they're coming from someone who is under extreme psychological pressure. And then they went after the prosecution's case as a whole, arguing that it was botched from the very beginning. [MUSIC PLAYING] According to them, evidence was mishandled. It was mislabeled. It was lost. Some of it was even destroyed. For example, they said that several other suspects had actually confessed to the murders, but that those confession recordings were conveniently taped over. In another example, the sticks and the branches that were found on the girl's bodies weren't even collected as evidence by the investigators, which, honestly, I have to say, I do agree with the defense on that one. I don't understand how sticks that are laying directly on top of murder victims and sticks that are covered in blood wouldn't be considered evidence. And you wouldn't take those with you. I mean, to me, at the very least, that does show that the investigators made some serious errors when it came to handling the crime scene. And finally, the defense pointed out that the prosecution's entire case and their timeline it just doesn't work, because that security video shows Richard's car leaving the trail before the murders even happened. The prosecution, though, they didn't seem too worried about the defense's arguments, because they still did have some key testimony that they were holding up their sleeves, including no less than four witnesses who saw bridge guy on the day of the murders. First, there was Riley Varice and her friend, Brienne Wilber, who said that bridge guy glared at them as they walked near the Freedom Bridge trail. Then, he was spotted by Betsy Blair, who said that she saw him on the high bridge, which later on her way back toward Freedom Bridge, she saw Abby and Libby. And Betsy's testimony was pretty solid, because she also had a fit fit that had its data to back up all of her statements and track her whereabouts and where she walked to at what time. So that was a rock solid witness. And then finally, Sarah Carbaugh testified. And she said that she saw bridge guy walking along the side of the road and that he was covered in mud and blood. This was around 4 p.m. So all in all, it painted a pretty dark picture of bridge guy's movements that day. But the defense pushed back on all four stories. Riley and Brienne claimed to have seen bridge guy near the Freedom Bridge trails at around 2.15 p.m. Yet Libby's video proved that he was almost a mile away at the other high bridge at that exact time. And Brienne also described bridge guy as very tall, which Richard definitely isn't. Plus, Riley, Brienne, and Betsy all described him as quite young, no more than 30 years old. But Richard was 44 years old at the time. And as for Sarah, the defense pointed out that her story changed several times. She had originally told police that bridge guy was wearing a tan jacket, which of course, doesn't match Libby's video or what Richard was actually wearing. So there was a lot of push and pull and going back and forth with these witnesses. But to summarize, all four witnesses gave descriptions that seemed to rule out Richard as bridge guy. But you know what gets me, all of them do describe seeing the only man on the trails that day, bridge guy. So if the defense's story is true, shouldn't at least one of them have seen both bridge guy and Richard? I mean, it's hard to not start thinking that Richard and bridge guy might actually be the same person when all of these witnesses are confident that bridge guy was the only man on the trails that day. So then after all of this, the trial then moved on to discussing electronic data. And the defense pointed out that all of the devices in Richard's house, you know, those 23 phones, not a single one of them showed any communication to or about Abby and Libby. But the prosecution was kind of like, okay, well, hold up. That's because the one phone that actually mattered was conveniently missing in all of this. Out of all of the dozens of phones that Richard hoarded, the one that he used back in 2017 has never been found, which honestly is a little bit suspicious for a guy that like hoards phones and has so many of them, like where's your main one? Then there's also the fact that Richard originally told investigators that he went to the trails that day to browse a stock trading site. Yet there was no evidence of his cell phone accessing that site on any of the nearby towers, which is really weird because we know that the trail received at least some internet connection because Libby's phone kept pinging. And that's really not the only suspicious thing that Richard did around the time of the murders. Shortly afterward, he also changed the description of himself on his own license. He added two inches to his height, and he took off 15 pounds from his weight. Which, look, I mean, a lot of people want to be taller and skinnier, I get that. I think I even am a few pounds lighter on my license, but was it an innocent change? Or could this have been another tactic to try and throw off the police? Then multiple days of the trial were dedicated to discussing each side's theory about Richard's gun and the bullet that was found between the girls. The prosecution's firearm experts said that the bullet and the gun were definitely a match. She explained that three different parts of cartilage, the ejector, the extractor, and the chamber face of the barrel were analyzed and that they matched to Richard's gun. But the defense really questioned how valid her comparisons were. For example, the firearm analyst took Richard's gun, fired it, and then compared those bullets to the one found at the scene. But remember, the bullet that was found at the scene wasn't actually fired. It had only been cycled through the gun. So the defense said it makes no sense to compare a cycled round to a fired one. We also learned that all firearm testing has at least a 2% rate of false positives, which that means in at least one out of every 50 cases, a bullet is identified as a match to a gun when it actually isn't. And that's kind of scary to think about. I mean, it's not a huge chance I get that, but it definitely is possible and all you need is a reasonable doubt. So finally, it turns out that before receiving Richard's gun in October of 2022, the prosecution's own firearm expert had already received three other guns for comparison to the bullet, and she was not able to exclude any of them as having produced the bullet. And to me, look, I'm gonna be honest, that's pretty damning evidence against Richard's gun being a definitive match. I mean, how strong of a match can it really be if a bunch of other guns could also have fired that same bullet, right? If she couldn't exclude them, that means any of them could have fired it. But that still leaves a big question. If the jury is supposed to believe that Richard didn't do it, who did? Remember, by this point, Keegan had been cleared. Ron was dead and any mention of a cult was completely off the table. So instead, the defense put forward a two-killer theory. They argued that there is no way that one person could have killed both girls without anybody noticing, especially because Abby was killed so carefully that no blood was even left behind. Now, according to the defense, Ridge Guy and another person assaulted the girls at the south end of the bridge, then loaded them up into a car and drove away. Then, about 12 hours later, they killed the girls near dear creek and dumped their bodies. Now, I know, as far-fetched as all of that sounds, the defense did have some evidence to back it up. For one, the medical examiner agreed that it was possible that multiple weapons could have been used to kill the girls, which makes more sense if there was more than one killer. Plus, the backside of Libby's legs were covered in debris. So this added weight to the theory that she was killed off-site and then dragged for a little while to the spot where she was eventually found. And there was one more big detail that supported the defense's theory. Well, I should say that many believed supported their theory. According to the prosecution's timeline, the girls were killed some time around 4 p.m. But it turns out that headphones were plugged into the audio jack on Libby's phone at 5.45 p.m. on the day of the murders. And they stayed connected for five hours before being unplugged, which really makes it seem like maybe somebody was messing with the girls' phone if not the girls themselves much later than we originally thought. Now, could she have just left her headphones plugged in the whole time and then somebody on the phone. unplugged them five hours later after they were done with everything possibly. It's, you know, for you to decide. But when it was all said and done, it was finally time for closing statements. And the prosecution highlighted their key evidence. Bridge guy video, the bridge guy audio, witnesses placing Richard at the scene, the bullet found between the girls that matched Richard's gun, and also, of course, the dozens and dozens and dozens of confessions. Which, according to the prosecution, those confessions included details that only the killer would know. The defense, on the other hand, they argued that the prosecution's evidence ultimately doesn't point to Richard. There was no DNA, no fingerprints, no murder weapon, and no real connection between Richard and the girls. The witnesses who saw bridge guy also described somebody young, tall, and wearing a tan jacket, which definitely doesn't sound like Richard. They also claimed that the prosecution's ballistic analysis was pseudoscience, and that all of Richard's confessions had been, like I said, coarsed. So with that, justice for Abby and Libby and Richard's fate, it was in the hands of the jury. Finally, on November 11, 2024, after four days of deliberations, the jury reached a decision. They found Richard Allen guilty of the murders of Abby Williams and Libby, German. On Friday, December 20, 2024, Richard was sentenced to 65 years for Abby's murder and 65 years for Libby's murder. Both sentences to run consecutively, ultimately putting him away for 130 years. And during sentencing, the judge called Richard one of the most heinous criminals in all of Indiana. After the sentencing, prosecuting attorney Nicholas McLean thanked Abby and Libby for helping catch their own killer, saying that Libby had the wherewithal to realize that something wasn't right and pull out her phone. Now, since Libby's phone was found under Abby's body, he said that Abby had the good sense to try to hide the phone from their killer, so that law enforcement could eventually find it, saying that even during the most terrifying moments of their young lives, the girls managed to provide the single, biggest piece of evidence to solve their own murders. Despite this small bit of solace, the pain for the families is endless. Libby's grandmother Becky says that she still struggles with the guilt of letting the girls go to the trails that day. Libby's mother Carrie says that even though Libby would now be in her 20s, the family can't even bear the pain of celebrating her birthday anymore. Abby's grandmother Diane said that Abby's last words in Libby's phone were, quote, "don't leave me up here." So because of those words, she didn't even allow herself to leave the trial even during the graphic testimony. She honored those words for herself. And sadly, the heartbreaking journey for these families and for everybody who has been affected by this, it was far from over. In December of 2025, Richard's defense team filed a 113-page appeal outlining why his conviction should be overturned. Their main points were first that the search of Richard's home was unconstitutional, so anything found during it should be thrown out. Second, that the confessions made by Richard while he was in jail should not have been played during the trial because he was clearly in a psychotic state. And third, that they weren't able to present a complete defense at trial because they weren't allowed to mention any of the odonism or cult theories. And while I do agree with some of the defense's points, I also think that it would be pretty wild if after all of this time, after all of the suspects, and after the whole trial, if everything were to come undone because of an appeal. I've seen crazier things happen, but who knows? Overall, this case is really complex, and it's hard to know what to think. There is so much evidence that seems to point in every single direction, and overall, I don't really know what to think. At first, I thought that the bullet evidence was kind of like the nail in the coffin for Richard, but now that we know that the ballistic analysis is kind of a question mark, it has to be second guessing a little bit. I mean, then again, the confessions, those really are damning in all of this. Yet still, there is no direct evidence tying him to the girls, so I don't know, I see both sides of the argument. Both sides have made compelling cases. I don't know, it's really hard to say. Like I said, my goal here was to lay out the facts of both sides without too much drama or bias, because I know that this is a very controversial case, but I'm really curious to know what you guys think. Do you think that they got the guy that Richard Allen is the one, or do you think maybe somebody else is responsible out there, that this wasn't Richard? I mean, regardless what you think, and which side of the argument you're on, the saddest part about this case that we can all agree on, is that two beautiful young girls with their whole lives ahead of them, their lives were taken from them, while they were scared, confused, and in pain, and that is just absolutely heartbreaking. And it's heartbreaking to think of all that they had to go through, and all that their families have had to go through. So I really hope that by reopening this case, I've been able to shed some more light on their stories and what they experienced, and hopefully maybe have you question a few things. Maybe if you were on the other side and you thought he was innocent this whole time, now do you still think that, or if you thought he was guilty, now are you questioning that? What do you believe? Let me know in the comments. Before you go, don't forget to hit subscribe on YouTube and follow the podcast on your podcast app so that you don't miss future episodes. I'm Annie Elise, and as always, thank you for tuning in to another episode of 10-to-life reopened. Stay safe. Bye!