The Deep Well of Kosher Wines w/ Gabe Geller, Royal Wine

Hey listeners, I want to tell you a little bit about Offset, a proudly independent commerce platform and brand studio based in wine country. I've personally used their ecommerce platform, Offset Commerce for over a decade, and I've found it to be one of the most intuitive and functional platforms on the market. Don't just take my word for it, establish luxury brands and leading independent producers and merchants like Brian Estate, Bedrock Wine Company, Arnold Roberts, and Acbee Fine Wines use Offset Commerce and Love it. Go to OffsetCommerce.com to learn more. That's OFF-SET-Commerce.com to learn more. Welcome to X-Shadow. The podcast that navigates the business of wine with unique perspectives and insights with your host Robert Vernick and Peter Young. Welcome to X-Shadow. Today we're talking about exploring the business of kosher wines with Gabe Geller, Director of PR and Wine Education for Royal Wine Corp. Gabe, welcome to the show. Wow, it's great to be on. Thank you, Pete. Kosher Wines is not something I know a whole lot about, so really interested to understand the market for it and all that, but before we get into it, you help our listeners understand yourself a little bit, a brief background on you, and your company, Royal Wine Corp. Sure, absolutely. My name is Gabe Geller. I've been with Royal Wine for over nine years now, and I'm the director of PR and the manager of Wine Education. I have been personally in the wine industry for about 16 years right now, in all different capacity, at retail, at consulting, and the aspects of marketing, so really quite comprehensive experience in the industry. What is Royal Wine Corp and what does it do? Royal Wine is the world, not just the US, but the world's leading holder, manufacturer, and distributor of kosher wine. Okay, so you both make it imported into the US, I guess, and distribute. You don't import to other countries or export to other countries. So we carry in the US, specifically, we carry over 1,000 wines, all kosher wines that are produced in every major rand region in the world. Some of those wines, a small amount, relatively speaking, we produce ourselves by our own wineries. We have a winery, absolutely, York Colt, Cadam, and we have a winery in California called Herzog Wine Sellers. And we also own a number of brands that are produced by third-party wineries in different parts of the world. And we also represent many, many wineries, independent wineries, and every possible wine region, such as Israel, France, Spain, Italy, and so on and so forth. Never knew there were that many kosher wines out there. So we want to learn a little bit more just about what the kosher wine is in the market for it. First, what is kosher wine? What makes a kosher wine? How's it different from any other wine? Okay, so this might surprise some of our listeners' viewers. So kosher wine is basically the same as any other wine. It's made the same way, it tastes the same. You cannot taste, even if you're the biggest expert in the world, you cannot taste wine and say, "This is kosher, this is not kosher." It doesn't have a specific recognizable taste. It's the way it is produced. So basically, since the moment the grapes are picked off the vines during harvest until the wine is produced, fermented, aged, and finally bottled, all the hands on aspect. So since the moment the grapes are crushed, so since the moment they become grape juice must and until the wine is finally bottled, all those operations must be handled by Sabbath-observant Jewish workers. So not just Jewish, they have to be the Sabbath-observant, they have to be Orthodox Jews, and that's what's going to make the main difference. None of these operations, by the way, can take place on the Sabbath or Jewish holidays. And of course, there cannot be no ingredients in the wine-making process, such as certain types of feast, for instance, or finding agents that would not be kosher. But in this particular case, it's very, very rare that the product that's not kosher comes into the production of wine. So it's really about who handles the wine and when, and that's what's going to make the difference. Of course, all kosher wines have a certification on the bowel. So for instance, I have here, this is Herzog wine cellars, it's a little hard to say with my camera, it's a special reserve cabinet, so we know from Alexander Valin Sonoma, fantastic wine, by the way. So this has on the label, you can see here a little OU, a U-circle, which is a symbol that you can see actually on many different food products, or beverages, and pretty much any store across the US and beyond. And that's a certification that's product-discosher, that this wine is kosher, that it has, it was produced under kosher, rabbinical supervision, by the, like I said, by people who are authorized to handle this process. Well, then there's a subset of kosher wines that are mevushal, I don't know if I'm announcing that, right? That's correct. What is that differentiation? There are kosher wines that are mevushal, there are kosher wines that are not mevushal. The difference between them, so mevushal means literally boiled or cooked, which back in the days we were talking over 30, 40 years ago, they would simply take the wine and boil it, which is harmful to the quality of the wine. Nowadays, they use flashed pasteurization with really high-end equipment, which does very, very little to the quality and taste of the wine. In most cases, when it's done properly, one is not going to see any difference. What I perceive me as someone who actually tastes a little wine, and understands is that most of the time, and the wine is mevushal, when it goes through that flash pasteurization, it's going to be a little bit more approachable at the gate. It's going to team down, but very, very in a very subtle manner, the acidity and the tans are going to be just attached softer. But in my experience, what I've done, especially with a great red wine, such as this one, which is mevushal, tied away, is that it's going to be a bit more approachable at the gate. So perhaps it ages it artificially in a way for a couple of years, but then the wine is actually going to age normally, like any other wine, and often it will age even longer, because it slows down the aging process. So it accelerates its adegate, but then, over time, it goes more slowly. So this is a wine in particular that historically, the track record, almost every other vintage goes 20, 25 years, and no problem when it's set art properly. Interesting. So not to the extent of cooking like Madera, but a little bit of the accelerated aging and then, kind of, stiller for a longer period of time. Correct. By the way, this is a process. The flash pasteurization process is actually used by many wine eras, outside of the kosher aspect, to remove bacteria. There's famous wine eras in the Rondelli, for instance, Chateau-Bouquet-Stel, which I'm sure you're familiar with. They also use this process. So they don't necessarily do the exact same time as required by the kosher process, maybe not at the exact same temperature, but it's pretty similar. It's much more common than most people would imagine. And you mentioned that you import wines from all over the world, all the major wine growing regions, where are most kosher wines made in terms of volume? Is it still Israel or is it just where any wine is made? Sure. So, for instance, here I have the Darum Bayetteur Cabernet Sauvignon. So this is a Cabernet Sauvignon that's made in the Saferne Israel region that's very dry at hot and where they have developed growing techniques. And me, if it's to really produce high-quality grapes that make these very fine lines. So Israel is the number one producer of kosher wine nowadays, which might be surprising to too many because, you know, a lot of people do not think of Israel as a wine-tracing country, but it actually is very fine wine region that's going through a renaissance. It was one of the first countries in history to produce wine thousands of years ago. And over the past century, especially since the establishment of the state of Israel, I believe, before that, a wine industry has been recreated, vineyards were replanted and wine has made there now for decades. It's getting more and more recognition, high scores by all the most famous wine critics, wine spectators, wine enthusiasts, James Succling, etc. Who would be like second or third after Israel? So it's probably equally between California, so America and France. Israel produces a lot of wine. They produce around 60 million dollars, a family in case this year, of which 95% is kosher. There's also non-kosher wine here in Israel, but it's the minority. And America produces produces somewhere around 300,000, 350,000 cases a year of Corsion wine, most of the majority of which is produced by Erzog wine cellars. There's a few boutique wineries as well. France has a production that is overall of similar size, similar volume of Corsion wine, but across many, many, many different wineries, all of which are not Corsion wineries, but they have special Corsion and across all of those references, all of those labels. You have a product, so you have the same volume made annually of Corsion wine as in California. We hope to release this episode in April of 2025, so around the time of Passover, Jewish holiday, which has wine very much integrated into the event. Can you explain to us who aren't familiar with that culture, what the ceremonies are, and how they pertain to wine and why they exist? Of course. So Corsion wine or observant Jewish people, such as myself, is something that we consume year round, of course. I only drink Corsion wine, and so do most observant Jews. However, Passover, which is in about eight weeks from now, is a holiday which is very centered around wine. The first night of the holiday, there is a ceremony called the Seder, at which we have the requirement to drink four cups of wine. So that's why, especially this time of year, it's allowed in the media, there's a recommendation for Corsion wine, because that's prime time for the Corsion wine market. Are the cups like measured cups, or are they different sizes? So the requirements has to how much wine, there's different opinions, people are more or less strict about those requirements. I won't get into that specifically, but as far as the wines that can be used, there's a lot of people who will use exactly the same wine to the four cups, and there are people who will use a different wine for each one of those four cups. And it can be any Corsion wine, so it could be a rosé, it could be a white, let's say a museum, so in your blog, for example, can be a California Cabernet or a Bordeaux, can be a port, really you can choose whatever you like, and there are, of course, any different, not opinions, but many different ways to go at it, people focusing on lower alcohol, because that's a lot of wine, just that one meal, people focus on red wine only, people have rosé wine only, and there's really everything in between, but the basic requirement is that can be any Corsion wine. And what's the purpose in the culture, the religion for having doing this four cups during Passover Seder? In the Jewish religion, Jewish practice, we use wine for nearly every religious ceremony, so at the wedding ceremony, for the Sabbath, every Friday night, every Saturday morning, for a circumcision, we use wine at each and every one of those ceremonies to sanctify the holiday, the ceremony itself, wine is really the holy beverage in Julius. For the Passover Seder, each and every one of those four cups symbolizes an aspect of redemption, because Passover celebrates the redemption of the Jewish people from slavery in Egypt. It's a very spiritual, mystical aspect, but each and every one of those cups symbolizes one of the ways that God came to the rescue and salvaged the Jewish people from slavery, each of those cups really symbolizes each and every one of those of those steps. And is it all people who observe the Jewish faith that do this or is it different if your orthodox or conservative or reformed or any of the other types? Most Jews celebrate the Passover Seder in a similar manner. There are of course, the nuances between different families, different denominations such as orthodox and slavery, reform, et cetera. At the base, it's pretty much the same. There are people who will be less stringent about if they don't usually consume kosher food or kosher wine in general, some will not be as stringent about using kosher wine and then they will use any wine. But at least in the US, perhaps it's different in Europe, for example, but culturally speaking, the US, a lot of people who don't usually abuse kosher wine or kosher food will make a special exception for Passover specifically. And they will get at least one kosher wine, at least from a symbolic perspective. These days non-alcoholic wines are starting to get more popular. Are there kosher non-alcoholic wines and are they allowed for these ceremonies? So they are allowed for these ceremonies, absolutely. So there are people who, for whatever reason, do not drink alcohol, cannot or do not want to. They can use grape juice and they will use grape juice as a substitute for wine. As far as non-alcoholic kosher wines, I am not aware of any currently, but I know that it's in the making. It's in the process. And I believe that within the next couple of years, we will start seeing some of those in the market. This is a strong trend, as you know, in the wine industry in general. And the kosher market is no exception. It's just a little bit behind. And so 40% of kosher wines are purchased and consumed for Passover. Is this growing or relatively stable market? So I would say that it's not growing. It's decreasing in the sense that in the past 60% of all kosher wine was sold leading up to Passover. Now we're done to about 40%. Not because there is necessarily less wine that is sold. It's just that people drink it more during the rest of the year, buy it also during the rest of the year. So the purchase of kosher wine is spread out throughout the year a little bit more than it used to be. But it's true that leading up to Passover, that's like the biggest wine holiday, Jewish calendar. And that's when there are the most sales of people tend to stock up and really take advantage of also some discounts out there and buy it this time of the year. But nowadays people buy also the much more than they used to any other time of the year. And is the 40% number, is that a US number or is that a global number? Well, I would say it's a US number. It's probably not very different in the rest of the world, but it's a US number. And so you said people are buying kosher wine now, 60% of time outside of Passover. What are the reasons they're doing that? Why is it growing outside of Passover versus what it was historically? So that's a great question. I think that it's a matter of generations. So like I said, there have been quality kosher wines, dry kosher wines from every possible region produced in the past few decades. If you go back to the 1980s and earlier, you had very, very few kosher wines out there, especially quality dry from any given region. That's what has changed more recently. And the current generations, generations, the genics, et cetera, those are generations that have grown up at times where there was a lot more kosher wine available and have more of a wine culture than their parents or grandparents used to. So they will drink more often, not just for the Sabbath or for holidays, but dinner and restaurants, et cetera. It's become something less ceremonial, less religious and more cultural. And the consumption habits have changed. I guess you probably know for the US more than others, but what are the top markets then for kosher wines in the US? So number one is probably, I would say more or less equally Israel and the US. If I had to choose between the two, I would say Israel first, then I would say the US, then I would say France. And then there is smaller markets like the UK. There is Germany, Switzerland, Belgium, Italy, Spain, and every country that has more or less of a substantial Jewish community, Argentina, for instance, that's the way it's usually spread out. And within the US are there particular markets that are stronger for kosher wine? Absolutely. So the two states that have really the largest Jewish community, especially observant Jewish communities is New York and New Jersey, that's going to be number one in the US. And then you have Florida, which is quite substantial as well. California, then a little less Illinois, Texas, Maryland, New York, New Jersey is definitely the strongest market. I guess interesting that California is not number one given for wine consumption in general. It's by far the biggest. It's interesting because there is a very large Jewish community in California. However, consumption habits there are, for some reason, at this weaf in the Jewish community, a little less strong with wine than in other places such as New York and New Jersey, despite the fact that they are in the prime, growing region of the US. It's a part of what you're saying. Yeah. Is it just that they drink more non-c kosher wine, or they just, for some reason, California Jews don't drink as much? I think that California Jews, for some reason, don't drink as much wine as their East Coast counterparts. Oh, wow. Weird. It is weird. It's believed that it's something that I have personally been, you know, trying to get to the bottom of for a number of years, not just me individually, but our company. It's going in the right direction from our perspective. It's got a way to go. So, where do people actually buy kosher wine? Is it just the same stores, like Total Wine and Costco, which are the number one and two retailers in the US, or do they have to go somewhere special? Okay, so that depends, you know, also on if you are in a region that has a strong Jewish community. So, if you are, for instance, like I live in New Jersey very close to New York City, we have a Total Wine that has a very large kosher selection. If you go to places where there is less Jewish people, you will see less kosher wines in the local Total Wine. If you go to California or Florida or in the New York New Jersey area, you go to Total Wine, you will very frequently see a large kosher selection. If you go to every other liquor store, so of course, again, in New York City, for instance, you go to areas of Manhattan or Brooklyn that have large Jewish communities living in the area, you are going to see more kosher wines and you also going to see fully kosher wine stores. Those exist too in those areas specifically. Additionally, online there is several kosher wine retailers. Some are exclusively kosher, some are like wine.com, for instance, have kosher wine, you know, among their selections. But basically, if you live in New York, New Jersey, you have a lot of different options where to buy kosher wine. If you live in the little of Kansas or Kentucky, or there is less of the strong Jewish community, online retailers would usually be the best way to access the largest selections. Got it. In 2023, I think the estimate for the people who follow the Jewish religion was 15.7 million or so, is it that the total market potential for kosher wine or is it also bought by non-Jewish people? And I guess differentiating Jewish ethnicity versus Jewish religion as well. Great question. The majority of that 15.7 is million Jews in the world. There is only a relatively small portion to keep kosher and drink kosher wine on a regular basis. However, there are some wines, some kosher wines that are sold the general market as well, but that people purchase because they are probably wines that just happen to be a huddy kosher. So for instance, we have a very famous wine. The Bartonura Mosquato from Italy comes in a blue ball, very popular wine. It is the number one, and it's been the number one imported Italian Mosquato for the past 15 years more or less. Number one, so I would say that 90% if more than that purchase that wine, purchase it because they like it, they don't even know or care that it is kosher certified. There are other wines like that, but that one is really the, we have a number of wines in our portfolio that are very popular beyond the kosher market. We also sell, of course, a lot of wine to people just looking for good wines, also the wines. We do not necessarily purchase them because they're kosher. And Israel is a little bit of a geopolitical hotbed at the moment. How does that impact the market for kosher wines? Maybe people want to buy them to support or boycott them to not support? I would say to anything people buy them more now than they usually do to support Israel. There, there has been a lot of focus on that. It depends. Again, it also depends in which community is regions of the country. Some are sort of more aware and supportive and focused on that aspect of things and will make a special effort to buy Israel wine over kosher wine from different regions. In other areas, people just know they buy what they want to buy and they don't necessarily consider geopolitical aspects into their purchases, but it really depends. Where I live in Tinek, to Jersey, that's a community that is very supportive with Israel and very active. People are very mindful of that when buying wine. I guess if your market is primarily not solely Jewish people, have you discovered any marketing techniques that are more effective than others and getting the word out for your brands to your customer base? I would say yes. We really like market wines. Why is it having that appeal beyond the kosher market, for instance, or really going to push all those aspects that are of interest to basically anyone? We have wine called Jeanette's Cabernet Sauvignon. It's the Jeanette series that's produced by Herzog wine, so it's in California. It was launched in the late to 2000 and it gained traction way beyond the kosher market because it was a relatively innovative product. It's got a lot of competition right now as well, but it's pretty strong. It's a semi-dry Cabernet Sauvignon, which has been extra bold now. We just announced a Pinot noir, semi-dry Pinot noir, all grown and produced in California with a semi-dry char de net. So those are popular wines in many different markets and they were initially discovered, so to speak, by wine critics and journalists who were surprised by the quality of the product and that's how the ward got out. Understanding those aspects, of course, when we have products that cannot peel, beyond being kosher, we of course take the necessary steps to push those wines or they're going to get good exposure and the any tourists from local consumers. And I guess I'm not being Jewish or fully understanding all the elements, but I guess I was thinking are there maybe things you do to partner with certain rabbis or synagogues or other things that really have been effective in marketing specific kosher wine brands to the target customer? Yes. Within the offered-tox community, there are different sects, I would say, who follow more strict rules as far as kosher goes. We are discussing in the Wushal before, so there are requirements or wines to be called in the Wushal from a Jewish perspective and there are different opinions. Some say it has to be at 101 degrees Fahrenheit. Some say it has to be 105 or 110 degrees Fahrenheit and different kosher super visions are going to be more strict about those requirements. And that's just one example. There are also different aspects with the wine-licking process that can be concerned. We are going to have some kosher wines in our portfolio that will have a specific kosher super vision that's going to be marketed to those specific sects or really looking for the strictest standards of kosher super vision and will focus on specific wines which have such a super vision. It's a little unique in the sense that a lot of the advertising, the promotion of such wines, happens in the print advertising. There's a lot of different publications in English, some Yiddish, also a target really of the offered-tox Jewish community. And the reason why print advertising is so strong, whereas in every other market print is in decline, very typically decline. Those offered-tox Jewish factions use less the internet and also they don't use a phone or the internet at all on the Sabbath. They are going to get their news, to get their community news, to get ads for products or events, etc. on the Sabbath, which is the day that they cannot use TV, internet, etc. So print advertising is still very strong within your flexibility. And every small community has its own publications with its local community news and stuff like that. And that's what we're going to advertise. Very strongly in the next eight weeks, especially leading up to Passover. There's going to be a lot of ads in those spaces. That's where it's seen. There's also a lot of that that's done on WhatsApp. WhatsApp has become in the open-docs Jewish community. The number one social media, so people don't use, say, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, etc. But they are all on WhatsApp. They get news on WhatsApp statuses, WhatsApp groups. They communicate a lot through WhatsApp or Telegram, for instance. And there's a lot of advertising that goes on those platforms that targets the Jewish community and that includes, of course, kosher wine. Wow. That's super interesting. I would not have thought about that. So what are you most excited about for the kosher wine market over the next two to three years? What's great is that there is more and more of a diversity in terms of regions, types of wines are produced from true at the world. And we have up and coming regions within the kosher market, such as South Africa, for instance, or Italy. We're talking about countries both in the old world and in the new world. That didn't up there for a long time already. However, but did not have that much of an offering in terms of kosher wines. And that's been changing in the past few years. And I'm really looking forward to additional regions beyond those, but also way more different types of wines coming from those regions. So until very recently, for example, example until like two years ago, there are very few quality coastal wines from South Africa. And now there's there's a number of them that's really excellent stuff. It's fantastic both in terms of, you know, having something new in the market, something interesting, and something that is also very good value. Wines from South Africa are really great quality and you get their value than many wines from California are from France, for instance, that's something that the coastal community did not have access to until until now. And so is Israeli wine New World or Old World? That's a great question. It's the oldest word. However, Israeli wine, nowadays, is a Renaissance, like I said, like I said earlier, so for hundreds of years, there was no wine in Israel. And they restarted that the late 19th century, but really the revolution started in 1980s. So quite recently, and I would say that's majority of Israeli wines are produced with newer methods, newer train winemakers, there's also Old World Trade Winemakers, but the style of the wines, but the majority of them at least is new word going to be closer to what you see from South America, California, Australia, for instance, than what you see out of France or Italy. But those exist too. They're just a small minority. And so we love to end each episode on a personal note. What's the most cherished wine in your personal wine seller? And when you plan on tricking it? Wow. Hey, great questions. Awesome. Love it. The answer is easy in this case. It's a French wine that's, you know, anyone who is, you know, really into wine and knowledgeable is a well known winery. It's a château, Ponte Canne from the region of Poiaquine, Bordeaux, the 2003 vintage specifically. That's one of my favorite wine periods that's been produced kosher. So château, Ponte Canne, that's a great example of non-coach or winery that produces special kosher productions. They did in 2002, 2003 and 2004. And then there was no kosher wine from them until 2019. And they resumed making a small kosher production in 2019. And it's still going. Wow. That's really interesting. Well, Gabe, thanks so much for sharing all your knowledge and insight on the kosher wine market for our audience. And yeah, hope that the holiday eight week push goes well. Thank you so much, Peter, and looking forward to the next time. Hey, listeners, if you love the show, support it by buying a show notes book. 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