The decline in marriage rates, Met Gala moments, Jan Brierton

Welcome back to the Women's Podcast. I'm Rochie Ningle. Hope you're all doing really well and if you want to get in touch with us as always, we're on social @ITWiminspodcast or you can always email us on the women's podcast at irishtimes.com. Do tell us what you think of anything we should be covering and we love hearing from you. Now, first of all, I have some very exciting news I have to tell you about. We have another live event coming. It's happening on Thursday, the 4th of June and it is another live women's podcast book club with our usual book club members Anne Engel, Bernice Harrison and Neve Tyree and myself. But also joining us, I am so excited to announce is award-winning best-selling literary favourite of the book club Claire Keegan. I know it is so exciting. Claire Keegan, as you all know, is the author of small things like these foster, so late in the day as well as collections of short stories and she's going to be with us in Chapters bookshop on Parnell Street on June 4th to discuss summer reads, books to read over the summer months. I know it's going to be a really, really special event and Chapters was great for our last live event. So any viewer there will remember that. And if you want to get tickets and find all the information, it's online at irishtimes.com/events. That's irishtimes.com/events. So do go and get your tickets because I know they're going to sell out quickly. We're so excited to have Claire Keegan with us and delighted that she could join us. Now in a moment we're going to talk to our great friend of the show poet Jan Bruten who is just back from a tour of the UK. So we were in this place in Barretton on Humber and it's funny. I think it was the third or the fourth date that we did and I got up and did a very kind of rural agricultural town, a real mix of people, sold out venue and men and women and the men were all big, poorly fell asleep. They were all sat back like that in the chair. And anyway, I did, you know, an icon on a nine-jail meat, blah, blah, blah, and I'm trying to throw a few efforts around and whatever else. And it's going well. And I come off the stage and I had to walk through the audience and this big unit of a man is sitting there and he just went, "God that." That was Jan Bruten there and we'll be bringing you that brilliant conversation in a while. First though, we have Irish Times opinion editor Jennifer O'Connell back with us to talk through some of the stories of the week for women. Jennifer, welcome back. Thank you. We haven't had you in here for a couple of weeks. I've been off on my halliers. I'm delighted. You need the break. And in the meantime, lots has been happening, but we're going to start with Katie Simpson and that really damning report about her murder. Remind us about Katie. Yeah. I mean, her murder has exposed these horrendous failings within the PS and I and policing and safeguarding practices in Northern Ireland. And it was an independent report issue this week that I think took everybody by surprise in terms of how damning it was. You probably remember the story of Katie Simpson. She was from a place called Tainen, which is a tiny village near Armass City. And she died almost a week after an incident at her home on August 3rd, 2020. And initially it was explained away as a suicide and that's how police treated it. So Katie sister's boyfriend was a man called Jonathan Creswell, who is an equestrian trainer. And he's very well regarded in those circles in Northern Ireland or had been very well regarded. But he had six serious assault convictions, including a six month jail sentence in 2010 for assaulting his ex partner, who was the Olympic show jumper Abbey Lyle. Now, as soon as Katie was admitted to hospital, various people in her circle and friends and family members started to raise concerns about what had happened to her. And the journalist Tanya Files actually contacted police while Katie was still in hospital to inform them of Creswell's past convictions. Tanya had coverage the case against Abbey Lyle. She told them about the domestic violence. She told them about his treatment of women. And she told them most seriously about his propensity for strangulation, which was well known. And she was told that officers would be in touch, but nothing happened. And it wasn't until a year after Katie's death that Creswell was arrested on suspicion of murder. And on the second day of his trial in April of that year, he was found dead at his home from suicide, his home in Grace Deel, County Dairy. So what did the report find? It was a whole load of failings on behalf of the PSNI. Yeah. So this report was commissioned by the Department of Justice in the North. And Jan Meleads author said this week that it was a damning report and it would be very hard reading. And I think that's a massive understatement. It found a litany of failings, including, I mean, in no particular order, the failure to preserve the crime scene, the police's acceptance of Creswell's account that it was an attempted suicide. They only consulted Creswell and Christina Simpson Katie's sister, who was in a relationship with him. And they didn't talk to her wider family at all, which allowed him to take control of the situation and establish this suicide narrative that he was pushing. They found, I mean, for some reason, this struck me as particularly distressing. I think really sexist language was used by the PSNI officer during interviews with the police armament for Northern Ireland in which they referred to Creswell as a bad boy and a philanderer instead of identifying the fact that he was a violent abuser with a history of it. And that cited in the report as an example of misogyny. And then there were things like just, I mean, things that are just obvious bungling and then things that are much harder to understand. So two probationary constables who were just six days out of training were among those who were sent to Katie Simpson's home the day that she died. Underwear found to be worn by her was very clearly bloodstained. The report says, but that was also missed by police. She was badly bruised. Her arms and legs were bruised. And that was reported by doctors. But Creswell said that she had fallen off her horse the previous day. And that was just accepted with that question. Then the report also finds like there was very poor communication, obviously, between her family and police officers, but also between medical staff within the hospital and with her family as well. And then Creswell's history of domestic abuse was totally overlooked because the PS and I officers failed to check the system properly. So only his driving offenses were found. So there was just missed opportunity after missed opportunity after missed opportunity. And even before her death, poor Katie, this was the case as well that she had been repeatedly in A&E departments. She had rowing 16 hospital visits between 2003 and 2020. And that was examined during the review. And she was found to have presented with head trauma, facial lacerations and soft tissue damage among her injuries. But there was no safeguarding referral made. And that was obviously a massive oversight. Now since her death, 37 other victims have come forward to tania files and others. And they're mentioned in the report to disclose that they were abused by Creswell. And some of them involve allegations of sexual and physical abuse. The youngest case relates to a child of just nine years of age. And of the 37 reports, 31 relate to females, women and girls and six to men. Beyond that, police have identified two other potential offenders within the equestrian sector. So there's obviously huge questions around safe guarding in horse riding in yards. And the PS and I has apologized and said that it's very clear from this report that they missed opportunities that warning signs were not fully recognized early enough. And we didn't listen to some of those who raised early concerns. And that includes tania files, who I should say has written a really strong opinion piece for us for this weekend, which will be on Friday. She has been amazing from the very beginning of this issue. And she's asking, you know, in this piece, she's asking how many other cases like Katie's have been missed. You know, was she the only victim whose death was subject to that kind of a substandor and investigation? And was Creswell the only offender who's lived through the system with what? Tania describes as malevolent ease. We were only talking recently to you and I about the amount of abuse and deaths of women in northern Ireland from their intimate partners. And then you're talking at the police who aren't just not dealing with well in this case and probably in others because it's not going to be an isolated incident. No, I mean, that's what Tania's asking like if it isn't an isolated incident, then what are the BS and I going to do about it? Are they going to reopen investigations? Where it was sort of written off despite there being some suspicious circumstances, it was written off as somebody having taken their own life or what are they going to do and how are they going to do it? And I think she feels she's been sort of stonewalled when she asks these questions of the PS and I. So she finishes up the piece with saying is the sixth anniversary of Katie's death approaches and with all the echoes of that haunting graves, graveside tablo which is, was she described seeing Jonathan Creswell sort of smiling over the grave of Katie Simpson as everybody kind of mourners drifted away. He was left standing there and then when everybody was gone apart from a couple of onlookers, she saw him smiling across at Katie's oldest friend. So she's saying with all the echoes of that haunting graveside tablo, there's at least been acceptance that the vast failures she endured in her life and ultimately death, but ensuring those failings aren't repeated is another matter entirely. Yeah, that's in on Saturday's paper. Yeah, that's very strong. I mean, it's great that the report is isolated these things, but for her family to see how much a year later your man was picked up, you know, when you think about it, all those red flags that were there. When people were ringing the police within hours of her being admitted to hospital to say this isn't right, something's gone on here. Look at this guy. It's hard not to see it as, I mean, I'm not going to say cover it but deliberate. Does something about it? I mean, there's so much incompetence here that you do kind of have to wonder if there's something more to it. Yeah, sure. Anyway, hopefully there will be more close eyes on the PS and I and their exploration of these issues, but it's not going to really help Katie Simpson's family, which is just terrible. We're moving on to, I don't know if it's, well, it's, yes, it's definitely a happier subject because weddings are happy and marriages are happy, but Jennifer, people are not getting married is much easier. - Nobody is getting married. I've called this one nobody's getting married anymore except Rochie. (laughing) - When he's young, I'm always like to be a bit out of stuff. I did get married a couple of years ago. - Very unconstable. - Yeah, but it wasn't a Catholic wedding now by any means. - No. - But all the weddings are interkind, is that what you're saying? - Yeah, weddings are roller interkind, so there's some very interesting days to release this week and you know, I do like my days. - Yep. - The CSOs changes in Irish marriage ceremonies, 2014 to 2024 publication came out. And it shows us that, the biggest, I suppose, stand out, data point from it is that the number of Catholic weddings in Ireland more than have over those 10 years. - That's incredible. - Yeah, but overall marriages have also declined, not by nearly as dramatic a figure, but they have also declined. But civil registrations and human assermonies grew, but not enough to close the gap. - What was yours? - Yes, civil registration. - Yeah, it was. - So you're bang on trend actually in this case? - I know, yes, as always. - I just step and bang on trend. That's the same time. The number of Roman Catholic weddings fell from like, so it was about 13,000, just over 13,000 in 2014, just under 6,500 in 2024. So very neat, having there. But the number of marriages overall fell by nearly 8% from 22,000 ceremonies, 22,000 couples getting married to 20,000 in that time period up to 2024. But civil registrations are still popular. In fact, they were, for the first time, the most popular choice overall. - And I think because there's a lot more places now that you can't actually get married. That's another draw for people. Because for me, it was, I was able to have the wedding in a lovely restaurant. We had the ceremony there, we had the, afters there, we had it all and we'd nobody had to go anywhere, which was amazing. - Yeah, I think that's really cool. Actually, friends of mine were at a wedding at the weekend, which was similar, it was all in a restaurant, and sounded so cool, so happy, so late. - Yeah, it just goes that no one has to, like, so none of this, like, no, we have to go here, no, we have to do that. You know, it was just, it's nice when everything's all in one place and you use different parts as the venue for different bits of it, and then turn it into something else for the dancing and all that kind of thing. - You're a good adress. - You're a best wedding ever. - Yes, I know regrets to use on. - No, no, no. - Yes. - I do think, I do think there's something interesting going on here, as having you think about, you know, why this might be. Now, I suppose the most obvious thing that you can say about it is that there's a fall in the rates of Catholicism generally. But I think some of it is societal as well. And I think what you might be seeing in that overall fall in marriage is, it's probably a societal thing and a cultural thing, right? So I think there's a kind of a disillusionment with dating generally and dating apps and dating culture has made it more difficult for people. Undoubtedly, it's made it much more difficult for people to meet than it used to be. There's also parallel thing happening, which is that, Maureen Gaffney describes this as the concept of the soulmate marriage. And she thinks, and I'm paraphrasing slightly, but she thinks that we're setting two high standards now for our other half. - That's very interesting. - So she says, we put far more demands on our romantic partners to be everything to us. So we want them to be our husband or wife, our partner. We want them to be our best friend. We want them to be our soulmate. We want them to be our sexual partner. We want them to be the co-parent. We want them to be kind of the co-manager of the household finances. And it's like it's a loss for one person. So she writes, she wrote this in a piece for us a couple of years ago. And you expect more from your personal relationships. So you want more intimacy, more equality, more support to keep growing and developing. And not only do we want all that, we want all that to last from the age of like, whatever, 25 or 30 or 35. - Which doesn't really bring into the fact that people change. - Oh, 80, five or nine. - When we might sublime. - We might sublime. - Think about it. It's not really very, so that's why I waited 25 years to get married. - Yeah. - Make sure I was really sure that this was going to work out. - And I think it's the case that like, seriously when our grandparents are getting married, and probably when our parents are getting married as well, they didn't have the same kind of expectation that any one person could tickle those boxes. So I think that is definitely part of it. And I mean, there's obviously a practical element to it as well, which is like the housing crisis, the cost of childcare, and more people deciding that they can't have children or they can't have children yet. And that removes an incentive to get married. I mean, I know for me, when I wanted to get married, I was 28 when I got engaged, I was quite into the idea of getting married. And my husband, too, is quite a bit older. He loved me saying that. He's six years older. He couldn't, wasn't that bothered about getting married, but he actually really wanted to have babies. And I was like, well, you want the babies? We're gonna have to do the next thing. Which is really kind of old fashioned now, but it was a long time ago. - Yeah. - You've evolved as well as the older. - Yeah, sure of. And then I think, I also think about this in terms of my own children and younger people in their 20s and stuff. I think there's kind of a culture of opting out among that Gen Z millennial cohort, where you know the way they kind of celebrate, and a lot of people are aged as well, but celebrate Jomo and kind of the joy of missing out. And they drink less, they date later, and they date less. They're, you know, and they're just more into kind of being a bit cautious and taking it easy. And maybe that's a result of the pandemic and also growing up in the age of algorithms and everything. - I kind of like that. I have to say, like, just looking at my 17-year-olds, I just like the way things are slower, you know, miles to other things that might be happening. I just feel like I did, if I look back, I think I was doing a lot of things too young. You know, I mean, I don't really know your threats really, but when I look at myself at, you know, 14, 15, 16, you know, I'm not very particularly happy with a lot of the choices or the things, the freedom that I had to do. And I see my children now that just taking these a lot more steady, can only be a good thing really for them, for the development of them we were. - Yeah. - They really are. But also they've more eyes on them, you see? Like, we didn't really have nobody cares. Nobody cared, Jennifer, what we were doing. And like, if one person had a camera on a night, there was 24 pictures on that camera, that was all they could take if they were encouraged to get it developed. So the risk of getting caught in anything unwise was a lot lower as well. The other thing then, but this is probably my most controversial thought on it. - Okay. - I do just think that the institution of marriage, as in the sort of heterosexual marriage, isn't really fit for purpose anymore. And particularly, I think it isn't fit for purpose for women. - Okay. - And the reason why I think this, you know, when our parents and grandparents were getting married, the contract was very clear. And yes, it might not have suited a lot of people. It constitutionally would not have suited me 'cause I'm really not a domestic artist by any measure. But it was kind of clear that like, the man brought in the salary, the woman ran the house and everybody had a role. But now you probably need, in fact, you undoubtedly need two full time salaries to have a household and to have children. And therefore, the workload at home also needs to be split 50-50 and survey after survey is finding that that is not the case. - No. - And it doesn't mean like it has to be 50-50 on every single household chore. Some people might have strengths in one area. It might be 60-40, one week and 30-70, one week, or it might be that, as in my case, my husband does 110% of the cooking and I do minus 10%. But then I do all the cleaning, he doesn't do any. We kind of work it out okay. But do you think young women, maybe, are looking at this idea of marriage and taking this is not maybe something I'm gonna be done with. - Yeah, for sure. And I think the other side of that is true as well that some young women are dying to get married and jumping into marriage and thinking maybe a career isn't for them. But I think that kind of that friction where men and women have different expectations of what's involved in a relationship. And, for example, there was a US study that found that fathers with more demanding jobs typically have wives who do more childcare. While mothers with more demanding jobs and women with more demanding jobs have husbands who sleep more and watch more television. It's really kind and depressing. - Oh, that's great. - And I think as well, people are more likely to cohabit now than they were. I mean, in my day people were also equally likely to cohabit. But I think people have a chance to rotiss things a bit and maybe go, this isn't quite working out for me. So I don't know, maybe that's a bit cynical, but but there's something going on because this is not just an Irish trend. - So it's a global trend. - Yeah, elsewhere. - And you're just not getting married. - Yeah. - The other side of it. - Oh, I did hear recently. I've heard about a few very young engagements recently. So there's always a anomalies, I suppose. - Yeah, and where is this? I actually want to do a feature on this. I want somebody to do a feature on where is a social and personal call when the Irish time is gone. We only have like one a week now. It used to be quiet, reading. - Yeah, there's hardly any now. That's a very good bit of evidence as well. - Not so. - The announcements aren't there. - Yeah. - So it's happening in New York Times had a piece about the marriage rate eating 140 year low in 2019 and never rebanding after that. - Never rebanding. - Never rebanding. And actually the only reason why it's a steady doubt is because people are living a bit longer. So there are more people turning up in surveys who are married just by virtue of the fact that they haven't died yet, but it doesn't mean more people are getting married. - Okay, well if you've any thoughts about the marriage thing, I'm maybe younger people in your lives and their views on us, let us know the women's podcast at IrishTimes.com. Now we're gonna be talking about the Met Gala very briefly in a minute, but one of the participants in the Met Gala was Blake lively and there's some news this week about her and her legal dispute with Justin Baldoni who she made that film with. - I was kind of unsure about whether to bring this one to you because it has been kind of the defining Hollywood feud of our era. - Going on and on hasn't it? - But it isn't notable for how tedious it is. Like the dirt is really, it's more like a kind of a light dust. - Messages between Blake and Taylor Swift wasn't there. - Yeah, there was, but I mean, all the revelations were a bit mere. And so it was kind of like an anti-me too moment in that like nothing very much happened and he kind of came out on top anyway, but I suppose to give the recap for people who've lost interest or were never interested to begin with, they've been at war for more than two years and it began when they co-starred in the 2024 movie, it ends with us. And it started out I think as a reasonably friendly collaboration between them, but it rapidly fell apart and ended up with accusations of sexual harassment and illegal fight, which did occupy a lot of headlines and a lot of pictures of both of them, but really was hard to find out what exactly had happened. So she says that the set was rife with sexual harassment or this is what she said, and she said that Baldoni had said in the presence of crew members that she had never watched pornography. I mean, I kind of think that, I think so what? And he called her pretty hot on set one day. I have to say, I would be delighted. (laughs) Okay, now-- - Because it's me showing that I was born in the 1970s, maybe not. - And apparently during a slowdown scene, they were filming, he leaned into Nozzle and Kisser without her consent, which is obviously totally inappropriate. But then again, they were filming. - So, I mean, it's all a bit mesmer, isn't it? - Yeah, well, yeah. - And it came to a very man- - Not a coordinate shift, it's a bit sweet. - Not a coordinate shift, but it's a bit sweet. - Yeah, no, she was very distressed by it all. - No, I think what was really notable about Ashtag I think was the way that he set out, then seems to have set out to kind of bury her once he realized that she was going to make these accusations. So he hired a company called the agency Pior and they put together this scenario planning document that outlined kind of key messaging points that he should follow and they included kind of highlighting his reputation as a feminist and a long time activist and advocate of women and for women in Hollywood. And their plan was that they would contrast that with blakes less than favorable reputation in the industry. And it is true that around the time of the primary of the film there was a good bit of negative online commentary. - That's right, you should remember. - I remember she got a lot of stick around her very interviews. It was an interview that resurfaced from years ago that made her look very bad. You remember, so if you think about it, yeah. - Yeah, and there was a lot of criticism. There was a lot of commentary around the fact that her tone was a bit inappropriate considering that the film was about a relationship that was devastated by domestic violence, which is a bit of an odd criticism because stars when they're promoting a movie or promoting a movie, they go around smiling regardless of the content of the movie. And you don't kind of expect them to come off to the red carpet looking grim. But it's open resolved anyway now, finally. - Yeah, man, with a bit of a statement. - They did. And again, very anodyne, I think. I'm gonna just disappoint it if this is the future of the century, really. We need to do better. I think this statement would have made when it's Paltrow's kind of conscious on coupling divorce statement from Chris Martin look, you know, well, it was kind of in that vein, let's say. So they said we acknowledge that the process presented challenges and recognize concerns raised by Ms. Lively, deserve to be heard. And then it went on, we remain firmly committed to workplaces free of improprieties and unproductive environments. And it is our sincere hope that this brings closure and allows all involved to move forward constructively. And in peace, it sounds like something that came from our own H.W. department, really. It doesn't, it sounds very kind of safe. You wouldn't really know what it's about, including a respectful environment online. Basically they settled behind the scenes. Yeah, something happened. We don't know any more details about that. When we never will now, the NDA is signed and that'll be the awesome. So let's move on to both careers, Will Tank. To Blake then coming in her lovely dress to the mascara. I didn't see her in the picture. Yeah, she was, I'm gonna cut my own, I felt, I can't remember, it wasn't that memorable, but I'm sure she looks lovely. She always looked lovely. She was gorgeous. Yeah, so it was amazing gear on display, but oh my God, it was amazing. A lot of controversy about this in that gala because it being seen as the oligarchs gala. A chaired by Bezos and his wife. Who himself kind of seems to have slipped in without being photographed, which I thought was interesting. Yes. So he could not be said of Lauren Sanchez Bezos, who definitely didn't slip in without anybody noticing. She certainly was there in front of the cameras and looking very sexy in a black dress. But some people were very unhappy about kind of them being the sponsor, the overall sponsor of this gala, which usually I think they have quite a big fashion brand. Yeah. Sponsoring it, but some people were in a topi. But although the stars came out in force, didn't seem to be too bothered. No, they didn't. And actually, I mean, a lot of people seemed to have got the memo that this was about dressing up and having fun, which I think was good. My favorites were Heidi Klum. Did you see her? Yes, she was. She looked like a statue. She looked like one of those people that pretends to be statue on graph and straight to get money from tourists. Like, she literally was just like a breached statue. Because we should say that the theme of it is fashion as art, wasn't it? Yeah, something like that. Yeah, fashion as art. Is that not always a theme? No. Okay. It's always different teams. So Heidi Klum, I loved bad money. Did you see bad money? He looked like an old man. He was like, he came to the king. He was on the king. He came to the king. He was disguised to the New York Times as a venerable senior. And he was dressed in a suit as a reissue, which I thought was kind of cool. I'm very cool. And he just came with like gray hair. And he looked like a very handsome older man. When we say older, I say he looks about 50 maybe. But there was an awful lot of what we said about it. There was a lot of hands attached to dresses. Hands attached to dresses. And then there was also a lot of breast plates. Yeah. And a lot of nipples. A lot of nipples. Not visible nipples, but kind of hinting at nipples. Yeah. And you know, my caracidetic in the face. My caracidetic in the face. with Mars who I love, Carrie Washington and Kate Marre. And it's good. It's about three old friends who start to discover secrets about each other after one of them dies. The other two discover secrets about each other's lives. - And where can we see that? - It has a little bit of a big little lies feeling to it. It's on Apple TV or a dodgy box near you. - Okay, none of our listeners have dodgy voices. - No. - Absolutely not. Okay, brilliant. Well, Jennifer, Connor, lovely to have you back. And we'll see you soon. - Thanks, Roachine. - Now, Jan Bruton, as many of you know, is a 50-year-old, double-woman and fashion stylist who became an accidental poet during the pandemic. She writes with warmth and humor about life, love, lipstick, and specifically about middle age and the joy and challenges of that stage of a woman's life. Her two books, "What Day Is It?" and "Everybody Is a Poem" became bestsellers. But she was introduced to an even bigger audience recently when she appeared as a guest on Tommy Ternan's show. Now, before Tommy had her in his hot seat, before he discovered her, she had been long been a regular guest on this podcast and fresh from a tour of the UK with Henry Normal. She came in to talk to us about the latest goings-on in her life, including caring for her father, life on the road, and the joy of intergenerational friendships. Jan is gonna be touring the country for the next few weeks with dates in Belfast, Go Away, Limmerick and Cork, of course, Dublin. And all the information on those dates can be found on her Instagram page @jbegoodtome. She was in brilliant form and we had a great chat. Enjoy Jan Bruton. Jan Bruton, we love having you in the studio. Welcome back, friend of the podcast. Very much. So, everyone, she and Ben, you're actually the poet of the podcast. It's that one. It was here, the women's podcast poet, Lariette. Can I call you that? Oh, yeah, I'll have that. You'll take that. Can I call that after me, Nate? (laughing) But I can't pay you anything. That's just like an honorary title. That's okay. Yeah, great. But it's kudos. It's art. I have to pay for art at the same time. But we'll just give you that honorary title and we are very happy. Poet Lariette of the women's podcast. This is amazing. And the Poet Lariette has just been on a big tour of the UK. I have, yeah, I'm just back. So exciting. Yeah, did 21 days away from home and all of the headaches and responsibilities of that. So, and then went for 21 days on the road with me, just me and Henry, which Henry normal. Henry normal, yeah, he's. Is that his real name? It's not his name is Peter Carroll. Oh, he's his parents. He's a desireist there. And he named himself, that was a stage name. So Henry started off reading poems in the 80s with like John Cooper Clarke and I'll use the tour with Pulps. So he used to open up for Pulp. And he chose the name Henry normal to try and play on that, you know, kind of the elders 'cause he was a young man at the time, you know. So, and so people would expect to see almost like a man in a suit. Right. And then he'd surprise them. No, no, no. Just killed rock and roll kind of killed poems and all. Yeah, brilliant. So you were touring with him. I'm sort of like a double bill. Double bill, my first kind of experience of a double bill. And Henry's really kind, he's really well known over there and he tours usually twice a year. So this was his kind of summer spring tour. So, yeah, so we kind of, it's gasped by the time we got to, you know, the last few dates we just had at the Ampat. So he opened up a dinner half and now are introduced me to the audience who, you know what? And it wasn't much of a surprise to me. They were primarily there to see Henry. They'd seen him before. So then he'd introduced me to them. But what I did find actually in a few of the venues, actually a lot of venues, I'm not gonna lie. People were at least one or two people in those venues were like, we came to see you, we saw you on the Tommy Tune. No way. I mean, because since we've spoken, you've been on Tommy Tune and you did amazing actually. And what I thought was brilliant, 'cause that's a really, I mean, I've done it myself. It's a nerve-wracking thing to do. And you walk out there and he doesn't know to expect you. You don't know if he knows you or whatever. It's weird. But you really took command of it. And like, what I loved about it was that you really got loads of your work out. You read poems. You kind of took control of that situation. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, thanks. I suppose, you know what? It's a bit like you're right. It is a really exciting thing, isn't it? It's a bit like, I was saying, you know, it's a bit like, wait until you go and see Santa or wait until you see the priest at confession. It's, you know, I'm gonna say that I'm really good or am I gonna tell him all my bad things. And I put, you know what? And I did say, like, sitting there in the green room, you know, I can't remember any of my poems. So I'm gonna have to bring the book. And I almost, I think by virtue of the fact they had the book beside me, I was like, right, you know, this is what I'm here for. And yeah. Well, you killed it and everyone loved it. And I mean, it's just, it's the continuing rise of Jambrut and that's the way I say it. I know you're poet Laury, so I don't know how much higher you can get really. Yeah. But Henry Normal and you, double bill, some people in the audience had seen you, which is wonderful. Like, it's amazing to be growing your own fan bases in the UK. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Like, we went all over the UK, like we were in, you know, all these cool, kind of like, small, kind of market towns, but, you know, we also did Liverpool and we did Nottingham and Nottingham was sold out 'cause that's Henry's hometown. And that was, you know, the welcome was gorgeous. We did Manchester, London. And then all these amazing kind of towns and villages, Gildford places where, do you know what ordinarily I wouldn't have any kind of reason to be gone and exploring? But the audiences were really engaged, really into what I was doing. Like, and me and Henry together just worked really well. Henry's like, you know, he's in his late 60s and I'm a 50 year old woman and he obviously comes with his kind of experience and then, you know, what he sees in the world and I come with what I see in the world. And it really worked and it, you know, it was so joyous and the two of us sitting in the car, traveling around. It's funny, a couple of people have said to me, you know, oh my God, like he's had breakfast together and all and we're gonna stick with each other kind of thing. - No, like, do you now really enjoy his company and we just have the crack in the car and there's something about sitting in the car, isn't it, your shoulder to shoulder with someone? - You get into deep chats, don't you? - Yeah, and it's really easy to just keep going with the car. And, yeah, it was lovely. So I've come away with feeling really proud of myself and with also a new friend, a brand new shiny friend who actually, I'll be honest with you, you know, like he worked with Carolina Heron and, you know, like, so I'd be sitting in the car and he'd be giving me all this advice and this, you know, he kind of said, you know what I think you should do or do you know what I think would be great for you? - So you know a little bit of mentorship going on, amazing amount of mentorship and just support and generosity and everything. So it was, all of it was good. Like I left a chaotic time at home, like my dad has been on well for the last kind of year and a half and he'd been just transferred to a new care home and then he'd been moved to a new room and I hadn't even checked the bag through security and the phone already rang to say, oh, your dad's fallen and then my dad was ringing me in the airport, he was in Dorset Street as far as he was concerned and I had to come and collect him. I'd say for the first five days, I was getting calls every morning from the care home and I literally was like, I don't think I'm gonna be, I don't think I'm gonna make it to the end of this. But I did and everyone held and my kids didn't starve and my husband said, - Well that's the thing, you know. - So 21 dates, you're away for all that time. I mean, I probably just didn't get asked of mail poets or mail comedians or anyone who tours, you know, how did they cope? But at the same time, you are the person in your house holding them things domestically. That is a big part of your life. And then you just say, see ya and you're off. How did you kind of handle all of that? - Well, I printed out a calendar with, you know, this is football training, blah, blah, blah. Like my kids are 16 and 13. So they know where they need to be on any average day. But you know, when I'm there, maybe they don't kind of, you know, gather that information themselves. But when I'm not there, you know, they figure it out. And you know, Austin really kind of, you know, was there for them. - Yeah. And obviously he works full time. So, you know, it was a huge kind of balance for him. But, you know, like he'd be sending me messages saying, you know, oh, it's really late and I've just gotten everyone to bed and I've done this and I've done that and blah, blah, blah. And I just thought, okay, you know, and I'd just say things like, you know, I know it's a huge stress to try and do work and I'll just stay at home. You know, you're doing really well. Like not patronizing them. But, you know, but I was just trying to acknowledge that it is really tough. And because he's a single parent for that time, right? I'm like, I work, but I don't work full time in the way that he does and his hours are wild. You know, but also the kids really kind of, you know, got together. They didn't quarrel in the way that they do when I'm there for some reason. So, we basically figured out that maybe it's me that walks into room and causes chaos. - Oh, yeah. - And I get that as well. - Yeah. - Everything is my fault when I'm not there. - That's weird, isn't it? - Yeah. So, I was like, okay, so maybe I'm the one that goes around and lightens the forest. But what they did find was that now they know where all the milk goes. - Right. - Because when I got home, Austin presented me with a big two liter of milk. He was like, I got you this, welcome home. - Because they don't drink milk much. - Well, because I obviously drink tons of tea. And that's where all the milk goes. Like we are used to buy like five pints of milk for the week. Apparently they survived on two. - That is really funny. Any other discoveries from you not being there. Just that it was clamor. There wasn't as much milk being drank. - Yeah. - Everyone was kind of cool. - Yeah. - Like at all, they all pulled together. - Because you've done so well bringing them up. I'm gonna say that they were able to manage on their own. - Yeah. - That's the lesson. - And I think probably a little bit of the, do you know what, independence you have to figure it out for yourself was now harm. - No harm. It's really good. - But wait, let me tell you this. I heard Theo talking to his auntie yesterday on the phone. - It's your son. - Yeah. And she obviously said, oh, you must be really happy to have your mom back. And he said, "Yeah," he said, "I'm Mr." But he said, "I really like, now I heard him in the back talking about this," he said. He said, "It's really nice having our hair, especially in the mornings, because she gets up with me. And I like that interaction before I go to school." And that just made my hair swell. Oh my god, isn't that mean? That makes me feel bad, because I'm very often not up by the time the girls go to school, then I have a start doing that. Yeah, too late. Now, like, do you know what, it's just something that-- There's all different moments in people's lives, and you don't realize that. How much that interaction meant to him. I had no idea. And also, he's at that age, and I wear I kind of repulse him as well. And he also doesn't want to talk to me, and I can't general to me, and I go to him and have food disaster. I know. So the fact that even the way he said that, I like the interaction with my mom before I go to school. And he was saying to her, like, she doesn't do anything for me. She's not spoon-feeding me or anything, but it's nice to know that she gets up at me, and she's there. That's lovely. Yeah. Well, you should be proud of yourself, Jan. It's a huge thing. And now, you're obviously not stopping, because you never stop now. You're carrying on. You're going on to do more things. But actually, first of all, creatively wasn't good for you being on tour. Did you kind of have lots of ideas for poems? Or do you ever have patches where you think, oh, you don't have any ideas? Or how are you creatively? Yeah, I think probably had quite a quiet low patch, you know, after Christmas, it in the run up to it. And do you know what I think that was? It was the anticipation of going away on tour and having to do like an hour's worth of material. So I do a half an hour at the beginning, and then I do a half an hour at the second half. Yeah. And then also trying to think about, because I always try to put the poems into context people and give people the story around it and try and relate it to them. So trying to kind of get a sense of all that, I suppose, first of all, I was like, oh, God, I'm going to be just reading all the same old stuff, but I had to get over that. I was like, this is a new audience. Do you know what I mean? They're seeing me maybe for the first time, the majority of the people. But then I was nice to be able to kind of drop in some new material. But I had this little notebook in my bag and Henry and maybe having our chats and something might come up and I might just like that. And then the other thing was the connection with people at the shows because when you read poems like, and yeah, I suppose, and you see it like with podcasts and writing as well, you know, part of the joy of it is when someone comes up and goes, that thing there that you did, oh, that got me. And then people, you find people I share in the most lovely things with you. So there was like, torrents of phrases and things that I saw. Like we met this man in Sheffield and his name was Milky. And he was, and the reason he was called Milky was because he used to look like the Milky Bar Kid when he was - Right. - So then I just - No, no. - like Milky anymore. - But he used to. - He'd always be articulated l breathes so he was this huge big iron made and covered in tattoos and he carried a photograph of himself as a seven year old boy in his wallet and the idea of this man carrying himself in his pocket I was like alright, I have to write that down, oh someone who's carrying themselves around now he then was telling us about you know He's had quite a traumatic kind of childhood, and that's why he kept that because this was a photograph of him before this trauma had unfolded and he carried that with them so as that every time he could he could just find himself back there again This was part of his you know making him like not making himself feel better but kind of reminding him reminding himself that he hasn't exactly - he wasn't always that and then he could be that again in a way It's like this child is still me, it's still who I am yeah and like that and then his wife spoke about how he held her up so tightly that she couldn't fall like that really got Henry so like there was loads of little moments like that where you're gone Oh yeah amazing you know and it was just so rich and kind of do you dig some poems do you have a new poem for us I have well I have a new one and actually that was the thing I this was I wrote this one just before I went away It was for international well it was around international women's day right it was March and everyone was of course gone and we brilliant and we deadly we can do everything and I was thinking yeah we can but aren't we also exhausted right and I over as I said over the last little while like my dad's been on well and whenever things were going wrong in my life often my dad was that man even as a 40-odd year old woman before he became on well he was the man that I rang like generally mean if something was going wrong if I was short a few quid if something was broke if I needed collecting the kids needed some two and a frown I rang my dad and so I was kind of gone while everything was up torrent you know I was like oh she's on my dad's like to be able to ring and go will you sort this out for me and so what I found was that when I'm visiting them in either a hospital or a care home when I'm with them I'm still as child even though I'm kind of his parent now as well I'm kind of advocating for a lot of people listening will recognize that and that's a sandwich generation thing that we're called the wedge I'm calling it and I'm definitely gonna write something about the wedge because you are like fully in that at the moment it's like my and like don't get me wrong like what a privilege to still have mom and dad and to be able to kind of keep going with the man to do all that work for them you know with then on the other side of the wedge is the teenagers and the husband and the relationship and you know and you're kind of there trying to be in all these different places but I found when I am with me dad in any of those places I'm his child I'm still his child and he's still my dad yes I wrote this one's called woman child okay when I'm with him I'm a child again my hands aren't small in his but then I couldn't sit on his knee now I wouldn't want to any hell because I'm a woman fully grown mature and poised children of my own independent brave and bold you can have it all we're told but when I'm with him I am a child a daddy's girl polite and mild I'd like for him to fight my wars to scare our fellas and knock on doors and warn you better leave my girl alone don't call to the house and do not telephone he brush me hair when it's a mess he twirling me round in a parity dress he buy me sweet that I don't have to share and he give me lifts everywhere so yeah I may be self sufficient an expert adult I'm life efficient resilient fierce head strong and wild but when I'm with him I am his child oh Jan I love this I love hearing one of your poems for the first time and it 's great when you read them like it's great to read the poem but to hear you say it's just it's a different experience that's amazing it's so true you're making you've actually made me think of my dad as well and thinking I wish I had a dad and just thinking what a beautiful I know he's not well and I know it's been really hard but what a beautiful relationship you had and what a privilege it is to have had a father who did all those things when a lot of people have very difficult parenting situations you know but it's great to see how you feel those all those memories when you're still with them you know yeah yeah and that never changes you know even though you're the one kind of wiping the trail from the space you know it's like he's still me dad and he can fight me wars for me or he can you know undo all my mistakes that's the way you know I feel still about him you know it's unconditional love isn't it's that you felt from him and it's beautiful that you can still feel it yeah even as you say you've changed the roles have changed and you're now helping him in a way that he helped you yeah it's just the natural order of things isn't it when we're looking enough to have parents that to get that old you know yeah it is a privilege yeah go that is a really woman child as well isn't that him what's her name Sabrina Carpenter has a man child oh does she well you see how I have him so I'll go back I'll I'll see your Sabrina and I'll raise it and name the cherry with man child yes so what a woman she was yeah I mean still in it yeah great that's gorgeous so the thing is you're off again now yeah they're gonna have to mind a few things at home while you do more touring so you're we're going to Rand Ireland yeah so feels a little bit easier this one because it's it's Ireland this time so I'm not out of your headline shows so what we'll do I'll bring Henry's coming over so still Henry and Jan we work I don't know like we were kind of we were coming up with all these funny names for our next tour I'll tell you the story actually we did a show in this place called Barton on Humber this is very kind of I love that you're going to know these tiny little yeah yeah these extraordinary places that have these like beautiful theaters yeah yeah like um you know we have churches they've got theaters and arts centers and stuff I mean they have churches as well but um so we were in this place in Barton on Humber and it's funny I think it was the third or the fourth date that we did and um I got up and did a very kind of rural agricultural town a real mix of people sold out venue and um men and women and the men were all big poorly felliss and they were all stuff like that in the chair and anyway I did you know when I get on and I'm doing me blah blah I'm trying to have a few words around and whatever else and it's going well and I come off the stage and I had to walk through the audience and this big unit of a man is sitting there and you just went good that good that and I was delighted I was like I'm putting that my next book and then everywhere we went into town I was saying to Henry come on we get a touch you and I get good on that hand and that on the hand so that's what we my color next tour I think that's a great name yeah because I have to tell everyone genres a beautiful poem for my wedding and it's called The Good Bits yeah so good is a great word actually do you know I was thinking about your poem today because I'm thinking The Good Bits could be a great kind of title for the next book And then I could have a little kind of subtitles 'cause I like the go bits. - I love the go bits. - There's go bits here, there's go bits everywhere. You know what I'm saying? - Good that is also good. - Good that, 'cause it just sounds great, don't you? - Great, good that. - You can put that in a T-shirt, you know? - Yeah, so when you're with Henry, Henry's coming in here. - Henry's coming in here. - That's another thing, you know this portman to see where I kind of started to on that when I met him for us. But now we can't, like there's been loads of funny little things that we've kind of come up with, but I had to do loads of Irish word translation too as well, which was quite funny. But yeah, so we're gonna, we're in Belfast this Sunday. That's the tent of the venue. Part of the Cathedral Arts Festival. It's the present. Is it the present? - Yeah, beautiful venue. - Yeah, it was only there recently, actually. - Oh, yeah, yeah. - That's a really nice, - The Cathedral Quarter Arts Festival is amazing. - Yeah, there's one more. - Really true, it's been part of it and everything. So yeah, so we're doing that on Sunday and it's like a 3 p.m. show. So it's really nice. So I'll whizz up, meet Henry up there, we'll do our show. And then we're in Galway on Wednesday in the Rochene Dove. I'll meet Henry there. And then we'll go to Limrich Dolan's warehouse on Thursday and then Dublin, my hometown, the ambassador on Friday. I hope he can make it. And then Saturday, Cork, Cucklin. So yeah, so do you know what? I'd love loads of people to army on Tommy Ternan. And if you liked me on Tommy Ternan, you're gonna fucking love me standing on the beach. - Absolutely, it'll be good. - I think we could accept it in Dublin. - Yeah, massive. - I'm saying to you. I used to word massive a few times for Henry. And we were going for a walk one day and I said, "I think I have that reverse body just more." I said, "Every time I look at myself in a mirror, I think I'm massive." And he went, "Oh no, you're not massive." And I was like, "I fucking am massive, Henry." And he was like, "No, no, no, you're not massive." - He didn't know you meant deadly. - And I said, "No, massive means really gorgeous." So he didn't, someone came up to me after one of the shows like, "Sorry, can I just check? Deadly is a good word, is that?" And I was like, "Yeah, deadly." So yeah, so I'm so looking forward. So we'll flip the show. So I'll open up. - Right. - And then you're in Ireland, so we're gonna open up. - I'll open up and then I'll intro him and then he'll, and like, you know, he just, he writes real love and heart and he's really funny. And yeah, it's just, it's been such a joy. And I'm definitely gonna write something about old new friends in that, you know, like, like, "I'm telling you, we can keep making friends until we die. There's no limit on it, you know?" - There really is, it's a little trick. - It's a little trick, you know, by sometimes I think, "Oh, my life is really busy. I don't have much room for anyone else." - No. - It's like, "Oh no, like, you do, you've room, "and actually you need them, and you need new." - And you know what, as well? I mean, Henry's be- - He's a bit older than me, yeah. - But you know, me, I've been making some much younger friends recently and I've just really enjoyed that. You know, 'cause you just learn so much from younger people and then maybe you can teach them a few things. - Yeah. - Like a met this woman I wrote about it in my column, who'd never heard of the Beatles. - Imagine. "Oh, no, John, what you see?" But what was your cheek? - She's from Afghanistan, she lived in Pakistan, India. She's not, she just didn't know, and I was showing her pictures of John and Paul, and she just had never seen before. - So you're basically like, "Yo, don't know, truck girl." You're like, "Great, they are." - Beatles, they are. - Like, you know. - I met another guy on a plane the other day and a lovely fella. And I was trying to explain to him what you two was. I mean, it's never heard of you two. I just don't, but anyway, this is the thing, it's not, I shouldn't be shocked. People are growing up and they're not, that's not in their cultural ether. - No. - Certain things. - Yeah. - They're not in it. So why would they know? - Yeah. - But you kind of can't believe these things that are monoliths in your life that are just nothing. - And then I'm interested now, what was the monolith in her life that she shared to you? - Well, the thing is so much. I mean, she's an incredible young woman who's making films and documentaries at the moment, but she's grew up in Afghanistan and Pakistan. She's lived with all these very cultural, culturally difficult, challenging, you know, war, all those kind of things. So just her, I'm a capacity for a dealing with all of that. And we actually had a lot of shared kind of mutual, philosophical approaches to those kind of things, to difficulties. Basically, we both realized that we're both very grateful people and just realizing what we have, rather than what we don't have or what we've lost. And it was amazing, you know. And she had read actually Victor Frankl's Man Search for Meaning and that was really inspiring to you. - That's really important to you. - And we had that as well. So lots of stuff. But also, I think just generally you get to, it's just even words. And you know, you haven't heard of it. - Yeah, language. - Yeah, yeah. And you know, it's really refreshing, you know, it's just very refreshing being around the youngs, as I call them. - The youngs. - Yeah, like I find that, 'cause like obviously my day job and that is in fashion. And so I'd be working with a lot of the, you know, the models I'll tend to be kind of 17, 18 plus. And I really love that kind of aspect of it. And I love the forward thinking of it. And I love the richness of it. 'Cause I think sometimes when you get older, you're inclined to think that kind of youth is ignorance, but it's really not. - No, and it's brightness and it's freshness and it's the possibility. - And it's wonder and kind of, you know, so it's wonderful to be around that. And because we can get jaded and we can get kind of, you know, I think intergenerational friendships either way are just brilliant. I don't know what a friend's who'd be a bit older than me, you know, as well. - And I think it just keeps everything interesting, you know. It wants to be with just all people who have sort of the same experience. You know what I mean? I love those friends as well, obviously. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - 'Cause I'm neither more listening. Oh yeah, yeah, but you know, yeah, of course, you love your little gang. - Of course, no youth. - No youth. - And the kind of you so well. - Yeah, yeah. - And you know, everything about you, but it's just really interesting. And it's also, I think with the younger people, it's just seeing how they see you, like they're observing you and they're making judgments about you in a good way. They're sort of thinking, they're telling you things about you that are great, that you might go, oh, I don't really think that or you know, it's nice. - Yeah, it is. - So, yeah, new friends for the win and Henry Normal. I hope you can introduce me. I don't want to rub them off you, but like he sounds like a great guy. - Oh no, I think you, I think you would just love him. He's just, again, like that. He's 69, so there was this thing. I felt like the young and sitting in the car, like, you know, 50. He was like, oh, tell me about this band. - No, no, we're always younger than someone as well. I've been older than other people. - Yeah, but he has a very, like that, a very, you know, kind of forward thinking, you know, kind of sense of possibilities really curious. And yeah, like it was just joyous to be in this company. - Well, I just think it's great now. And people can buy tickets on your website or work and they get tickets for all these years. - Yes, it just links on my Instagram, but the Dublin day is ticket master. Dolan's the Crescent Arts Center. What's the other one? - Cotton's in Cork. And is that the mall? - Yeah, it's a go away, the Rochendo. Yeah, they'll be on all on their kind of website, so I'll put it on my Instagram. And, you know, I am gonna be plugging away now for the next week 'cause I really would love to, do you know what, the other really lovely thing that's is that people come to, oh, would you like to come to a poetry reading? And it's like, no, like, do you know what I mean? And it's not, it's so much more than that. It's stories and fun and, you know. - It's a celebration of life. And we interacted with the audience. We do like a little Q and A thing at the end. Now I suppose when we were in the UK, naturally enough, everyone was interested in Henry. And he kind of was like, I really want you to be included. I was like, Henry. - I don't mind. - I'm standing here listening to your stories about Caroline and her, the Royal family. All like that, the cultural things in my life that were so important to me, the mighty Boosh Gavin and Stacey, like all of these amazing filamina, you know, he produced filamina. So like, he'd be telling all these stories and I was just going, this is amazing. Like it was like I was one of the audience, you know. So yeah, maybe over here, people might be a bit more interested in me. But equally, you know, it's a lovely, lovely night and it's very interactive. And yeah, please. - How do you turn up with a poetry reading? - Yeah. - Aspect of it because it's not a turn off. It's a turn on, I would say. It's very sexy. - Yeah. - Well, no, no, I don't know. I don't know, but sexy, Roshing, that's stretched too far. Henry and his card against me and me jumpsuits. But you know, different strokes. - I mean half tea, half woman half tea. - Do you drink a lot of tea on stage? - No, I mean, Henry brings his tea onto the stage. No, but I'd say I had a cup of tea in every single county in place we went into. Yeah, really. - So, well look, it's been an absolute pleasure. I hope your dad gets a bit better and I hope that challenge isn't too hard, but it is just something that's in your life now. - Yeah, and it's just I'm accepting of it. And I am where I am. And it's a bit like I think you said to me, so I'll let that whole Victor Frankl things say, you know, those two think they exist at once. You kind of have to acknowledge the really rubbish stuff to be able to enjoy all the amazing opportunity. - I'm so weak in frame at that way. There's a decision. I think that poem is really you taking something beautiful from this experience you're having with your dad, and remembering all the amazing times you had with him and how he can still be that figure for you and you're deciding to do that. 'Cause we can frame things how we want to make you better. That's the thing I take from, as well, Eda Thieger, who I mentioned on the podcast last week who died. And she also, Victor Frankl would have been her mentor, you know, and she was a psychologist who was in Auschwitz and everything, and she just says that no one can, you know, no one can take away what's in your mind. - Yeah. - You know, nobody can. - Sure, book the choices. - Yeah, that's right. Yeah, because I think you recommended that to me and I got it, yeah. - Yeah, and we all have a choice in every time. And so I think that's the way it forward and these difficult times that we all experience in our lives and write poetry about it, as well. - Yeah, well I'm up for the choice and the opportunity and do it all with an open heart. That's where I'm at at the minute, so. - Yeah, thanks for having me. - Go and see Jan, it's gonna be amazing. Okay, thank you so much, Dan Bruton. - Oh, no, yes, I forgot. - The Irish Times Women's Podcast. - Your way. - Thank you. - That was Jan Bruton there. And if you get a chance to go and see her, you won't be disappointed. I'm gonna be at the ambassador on Friday, 15th of May. So I might see you there. That's all we have time for. The podcast is produced by Suzanne Brennan with JJ Vernon Unsand. Find us on social at IT Women's Podcast or email us at [email protected]. I'm Rochy Engel, that's it for me. Mind yourselves and I'll talk to you next time. (upbeat music)