The Death of the Male Popstar (ft PopSamCam)

We are witnessing the death of the male pop star. We went from years of the Beatles, Freddie Mercury, Elton John, Michael Jackson, Insink, Basque Street Boys, Justin Timberlake, Justin Bieber, One Direction, Harry Styles, and then just none. After Justin and Harry, there have been zero men to ever reach that upper echelon of pop music. And I genuinely feel bad for the young people of today. They don't get to have that same experience of collectively fangirling over things like One Direction, or the 1975, and how that creates such a deep love and passion for music in the community that it brings. And this void continued for nearly a decade until finally this year. With artists like Sombra and Roe Model, it feels like we're finally starting to see glimmers of this re-emergence of what is a main pop boy. And you may see this as just luck or coincidence, but I cannot disagree more. This was the result of a deliberate marking strategy, and frankly, a genius one at that. So what exactly did these artists do to break through? And what exactly does it mean to be a man and pop today? Well, that's exactly the question we set out to solve here. With my guest today, Pop Sam Cam, I'm so excited to have you, and welcome back to Nikki and I here. - Thank you, I'm so excited to be here. This is the perfect topic. - I know, you know it. - I know, and also like longtime friend of the show, even before you came on. But I, this is like something I think you and I actually even talked about before, like prior to. - I feel like in text messages, it's like a current, it's a common thread that we have going. - Yeah, and that like, like the place of men and music is so interesting right now. And it's like also not that we don't have men with like popular appeal, right? Like I think, like what you think of like massive, you know, men and pop, you think of like Drake and Post Malone and the weekend and Ed Sheeran. And like I would say they have made pop music, but I wouldn't say they are like pop stars in the same way. You know what I mean? Like to compare Drake and Justin Timberlake feels like wrong. Or like there's a difference there. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think that's a big part of it is defining like what actually is a male pop star today. - Yeah, it's such a broad definition. And I think what we'll discuss, like the most is how much it's changed from like growing up with people like NSYNC and also like, obviously Asha and like the pop stars that danced and like had full almost the theatricality to what they did. - Totally. - And how that has just been totally left at the door now and we're at a point where that stuff maybe doesn't matter to define you as a pop star. - No, it's so, men used to do choreography. Like it's so crazy how like it's just like acceptable now for like a man doesn't have to do choreography, but like every girl in music absolutely has to where it's like not an interesting show. And also like this lack of choreography, I think it's like why just doing a backflip is impressive. - Honestly, people just want some movement and they're like somebody is moving so we'll take that. - This much movement one time in an hour long set is like so much like, you know, like acceptance. And also it was so interesting. Like I was really thinking about this with like the Coachella performance too. You know, like I remember people getting kind of mad that like Charlie was by herself and like not doing anything. And then after it was like Green Day, and I'm like all they do is stand there with a guitar. - Yeah, exactly. - There's no like plan like performance or like choreography. Like this entire like visual identity in like performance aspects of a male artist has kind of like completely disappeared. - I mean, I can almost think of no festival headliner that's male who has like brought choreography. - Tyler the creative performance. - I literally think that's it. - Totally. - I literally think he's the only one. He's like those lines between what we thought was a pop star and what is a pop star now. And I think that has a lot to do with like how rap has kind of like overtaken pop as one of the like really dominant genres. - Totally. - And I also think like, you know, like if I were to compare someone like a Tyler creator to like a Drake. Like when Drake was really like on the come up and also at his peak was also simultaneously the peak of like rap pop crossover. - Yeah. - You know, like there was like this era where like, you couldn't have a successful pop song with like out Amigos feature or like a Drake feature. - You know what I mean? - From like 2014 to like 2017. Honestly, me too kind of like beauty and a beat. Justin Bieber and Nicki Minaj. Like there was just this obsession with like someone pops our doing the chorus and then a rapper would do the verse and like that was a song. - And that never happens now. - It never happens to disappear. - It's really really interesting. - They become. - They become it with Bon Appetite Migos. They were like normal. The Migos feature was magic. Like there was a period of time where like it didn't matter what your song was, but there was a Migos verse on it. It was like the best song of the year. - Exactly. - It was so good. - They run such a strike at that point. - They were on such a streak. And like when thinking about, you know, like this sort of like what is the male pop star? I think there were like a few things. One, I was trying to think in my head like okay, who would I classify as a male pop star? And then like what is the difference between these types of people, right? So like the ones that like I really would be like pop stars, like Michael Jackson, Justin Timber like Justin Bieber, Harry Styles, and comparison to like a Drake Post Malone the Week and Ed Sheeran. And I was really trying to think of like what do these people have in common, right? Like or like what is the difference? - Yeah. - Three things I had thought of. One, I think it's very interesting that like, they had a primarily female audience. Like that I think is the difference between, like when I think of this, like it was really interesting not to say the music now is like men make music for men and women make music for women, right? Like rap is so male dominated. Country is so male dominated. Pop never been more female dominated. Like that has like diverged, which is very interesting because I think like every other aspect of music has become like more diverse than it ever has been. - It's hard to lay. - But it's like weird that specifically gender is the thing that has like distinct each other more. The second thing I think is like this clear adherence towards like being marketed as a heartthrob, honestly. And with that like playing to a younger audience. Those are really like the three things that I had thought of of like what of like a Justin, a Justin Bieber Harry Styles like Michael Jackson all did. - Yeah. - Also I think this element of choreography even you could include it there. - Yeah, I think there's something intentional about what a pop star does and they define themselves in a way. Like in terms of when you think about Drake or Ed Sheeran, they've always like very kind of like, they've been very intentional in making sure we knew they were not a pop star. Like Ed Sheeran was a relatable singer songwriter and Drake was a rapper and there was no way they were ever gonna like take on the pop star kind of title. But when you think about Justin Bieber, like choreography is such a big part of him straight away. Working with major pop producers is a major part of his brand straightaway. Like whether it was hit, I mean I doubt it was him at like 15 years old. Like I am a pop star. But the label made a very intentional decision that this is a pop star. This is what it looks like. This is what it's packaged as and there's no way you can move outside of that kind of box. And I feel like what we see in the like last decade or so is that box kind of just like destroyed and now nobody knows what it is. - No, like there was a clear formula for sure. Also definitely contributing factor of like, that was like a byproduct of like us coming out of the wave of child stardom. And I think like post Miley Cyrus and that type of thing there was a big like over correction. - Yeah. - So like in the 90s and 2000s, it's like all child stars, right? Like and even earlier than that, we go from like Jackson Five to then like the Disney Channel era with like the Britney's and the Justin's and all of them. And then Justin Bieber and Jonas Brothers and Miley Selena Demi, blah, blah, blah. And I think like after all that happens, people kind of woke up to the idea of like, maybe like child labor is not so cool. And like, so then like if you think of the 2010s, I think there's like a stark over correction, right? And like we don't, like there's like a cut off is like what happened with Disney Channel and then like after a certain year, it's like there's no more kids, right? - Yeah. - So I think that was like a very, very big part of it when I think of these sort of you know, like Justin Bieber, Harry Styles types or at the very least, even though Harry Styles was not from Disney, he was from X Factor. But like it was part of this thing of like, they got famous as kids, which is not something that happened with like the Ed Sheeran and the weekend types. - No, and it's something that happens so rarely these days, like I was thinking about Sombra the other day and I heard he's 20 and I was like, oh well, that's young. - Yeah. - And then I was like back in the day, that would have been like in another age bracket with pop stars. - Totally. - Totally. - Basically on the charts. - And I think this was also like, like I remember when Olivia Rodrigo was really blowing up, like for the Fert, like driver's license blowing up and like explaining to people I was like, I don't think like you understand like, kids on stage is like, no, there's no one else writing about their driver's license. - Yes. - There's nobody, like as like we, like the kid, I think we grew up with like, Miley and Taylor and Ariana and like all of these, the incredible artists that got so big and so massive that like no one else came in after that. So like we are very much accustomed to the idea of like listening to music young and aging with them, right? Like I watched Ariana Grande on Victoria's and like I listened to Ariana Grande's most recent album, right? - Exactly. - And like that doesn't exist for kids until Olivia Rodrigo. Like she is like the first one who's like, wow you're thinking about being in high school, like thank God. - It's totally true. like even think about chapel, she's like 27. 28 Charlie is in her 30s all these pop stars who are like really relevant right now then not I mean when I was 13 I had like maybe four or five like pop artists who were in my age bracket that I could listen to yeah that's just not the case anymore and I think that like ties right back into the male pop star thing totally where it's like a male pop star needed to be kind of like conceived in a lab in some kind of way and it's so much easier to do that with a teenager than it is to get a 25 year old and be like hey we want to make you a pop star and we're going to like basically just smooth over your entire brand they're like no yeah no that's like a very very interesting point like this idea like the male pop star having to be made almost in a factory yeah I very much agree with and also like I mean there's weird things to like I think about this all the time with like the way that these sort of like male pop stars were marketed like especially I think at all times Justin Bieber of like how crazy it was normal at the time crazy now we're like he would go on these like talk shows like like cable television and he would be like 16 and there would be like a woman in their 30s or 40s and like the entire gimmick of the segment was like her hitting on him you know like that was like the point like he would go and it's like that is so crazy one but like um you know I think it's like so interesting that I think after that stopped working and being allowed the music industry was like well why try right like that's like really what it feels like to me it was just like we can't do this formula anymore so let's give up as opposed to like there's too many roadblocks they were like this is too hard yeah as opposed to just like thinking of like what does it take to make a successful male artist yeah which then begs a question like what do you think it takes to make a successful male pop star like now or now now it's so difficult to define because there's no dominant sound of pop so whereas like back in the Justin Bieber days even the producers that you would get to work with him had a track record of working with a bunch of other people yeah making a similar sound there was that lineage with Asha and then another man who comes before them yeah yeah but like there was that path whereas now when you think of somebody like somba or role model there's no kind of unifying producer or sound or look to make them a pop star so it's just so difficult to land on what it takes now and it the only thing I can land on now of what it takes is charisma like yeah that's it for sure still so many of them don't happen well I think like something interesting that we're something very interesting about the era music we're in is like you don't have to make good music to be a super famous artist like or you don't have to have super massively like successful music like there's a lot of people who I think are more famous for being famous than they are any particular one song yeah I feel like this honestly I can at the very beginning like how role model started like I think he was just like so charming and charismatic and he did like Jake Shane and like just a bunch of things where people kind of fell in love with him yeah more than they did like any of the music then like Sally you know like was his like first the word hot 100 charting song but like at the initial blowup like he was just famous for being role model you know exactly he also doesn't have hits in the way that we would have said that like Justin Timberlake had hits or Asha had hits or even Harry Styles like this is a totally new definition whereby you can play massive crowds and have a huge following and still not have any like ubiquitous hits which is what would it would have taken to be a pop song right before it's like you had to have a hit to like build a community and now it's like you can build a community of people who like you like before they're even as a hit yeah and honestly I think most of the time it works better the second way like there's a lot of people who I feel like I'm like oh they're just like one album way you know like they just need like like role model is one of those people like I think the second he has like one big song that's like more commercial eating also I think like he's kind of like in this like weird like I identity crisis of sound like I don't think he particularly knows where he wants to go um and it's kind of nice because it means he has time to figure it out without being at the level that Justin Bieber was whether you don't have time to figure it out you don't get to pivot yeah yeah you don't get to pivot it's like you're this forever um and then that's also why Justin Bieber like experience like a lot of dark stuff like I think as he grew up it was because it's like you've been trapped in high-flighting against the machine basically yeah literally I mean that's how we get to this album now which is the first album to me that feels like he's free and he's making an artistic statement that's like really important to him rather than just like compromising with the label in some kind of way yeah I agree I don't know like I have mixed emotions about this album I really really liked it I think it's a good album yeah but I was like I just wanted something to like make me feel an emotional attachment to it I think it's what I was missing like when you do this sort of like uh like you're famous enough to just drop it with no marketing right like you have 200 million Instagram followers and you can just like post like oh I have an album and it'll get like 10 million streams yeah is great and it's cool and it's exciting but like I don't like we're even just like looking at the album right like the songs are like daisies and butterflies and go baby and you know never gonna walk away but then like the album cover is like black and swag and like you know what I mean like I like I I felt like the in like when you listening to the music is very like warm and endearing but like the external and like marketing of it is very like cold and shut off yeah and that created like a disconnect for me you know what I mean that's just this like confusion between that he always has this like push and pull between being really inaccessible and then also being cool yeah also playing the pop star game like there's all in the past few records I've always seen this like going on where they give him a little bit of rope to go one way yeah pull him back to the pop star thing and yeah I feel like the blackness of the album cover is him like shutting off and being like I'm like done letting you in this much you know yeah or honestly like I was kind of thinking like it is kind of like reflective of him you know what I mean like the way he looks is very like tatted man yeah you know he's always kind of like I feel like a lot of the times we see him like on the internet it's like disgruntled in him yelling about standing on business or whatever you know what I mean like like that's what he looks like on the outside yeah but like who he is on the inside is daisies and butterflies exactly like that's kind of like how I interpret it of like you know what I mean he's like kind of like letting in that window but I don't know I mean it's just like a me issue of like I love when they really try yeah which I think is exactly this conversation where like the male pop star doesn't appear to be trying as much anymore yeah and by trying I mean we kind of define trying as having like a really distinguishable era very strong aesthetic the dancers to go with that the music videos all tied together like it was a total package right and I just don't think you see that anymore one because music moves so quickly that like having a full era is almost impossible because people's attention spans are like what a month at most for an album and also like we've just started appreciating people's like the way of showing charisma is very different to what it was back then in that we will watch a tech talk and we will like listen to an interview on a podcast rather than look at their music video and be like oh wow their star power is just like shining through you know yeah that's why I think we leave all that kind of stuff we would define as traditional male pop star stuff at the door now interesting um I agree thought I mean like when I think about like what it takes to be a male pop star like I have a theory that there's three things that make our break a new artist it is ethos number one like what do you stand for what is your unique point of view number two is like persona so like who are you and who are the people that like you and why do they like you yeah and then three is like some sort of artistry so like what is the visual how are you building the world yeah and like I can clearly tell you in like women like how women are doing all those things right like ethos is like like when it thinks of like a point of view is like the eternal example I always use is like Sabrina Carpenter versus Taylor Swift right like if they were to both write a song about heartbreak or the end of a relationship Taylor Swift is like sad girl poetry this is everything I learned from him this is what he did for me this is like why I'm upset where Sabrina Carpenter is like you're a man child I feel like you're like then a feather and like when you kiss your next girl you know you're gonna taste me when he's kissing you whatever right like they're they're they're gonna be talking about the same thing but like the way they are discussing the point of view that they go at that topic like could not be more opposite but like you develop this sort of like expectation of like what you like from them right like that's why people like Sabrina Carpenter yeah is it's like giving them that like it's cheeky it's witty it's self-aware but it's also kind of like I'm so hot and like you were lucky to be with me in the first place yeah and like I don't think like a lot of men have like cracked like a defined point of view and anything you know what I mean like but I do think that was really what role model did well like I think the beauty of role model was that he had this like heartbreak album and it is about a very public relationship but like never once did he shit on the girl he only shits on himself He talks about how like, She is insecure and how he messed up and how he is heartbroken and how he will always love her and how that changed him as a man, like as a human being. And I think that was like so refreshing for young women to hear in this time of like, insult culture and like, all right, pipeline on the internet. And you know what I mean? Like to see like a man from Michigan just like making music about why he was not good enough for a girl. It is like so rare. Yeah, that's so true. And I think that's like why it resonated with people, right? Like that's why he became like this sort of like underdog. Like you wanted him to win and you wanted to, you know, seemed, and that's why like him going on things like Jake was so good too. Because I think it really made you like view the human behind this person of like, wow, this is somebody who is like, not just Emma Chamberlain's ex. This is like a man who is heartbroken by like a relationship with a woman. Like, do you think like male pop stars have had difficulty getting used to this new like reliance on law when it comes to music? Because the females really are good at it. Like we've seen it with Olivia Rodrigo. It's Sabrina Carpentare, Miley Cyrus with flowers and the whole Liam thing. Like they're so good at packaging it. And I wonder if male artists are seeing vulnerability very different in like a more edgier and way than I can still make pop music. I think that's yeah, I think your model does well. I think they're having a problem with lore. I also think they're having a problem with references. Like they men don't have like great references in music until like somebody just makes, right? It's like the Benson Boone thing in Freddie Mercury. Yeah. It's like there was no like adherence to a consistent vision there. It was just like this worked for another man do this. And like I don't think like women don't feel like they're doing that. I also feel like they are a lot more deliberate and strategic with kind of like picking lanes that aren't occupied right now, right? Like you're talking about like Olivia and Sabrina. As you just mentioned, like Olivia really went into that lane of like paramour, you know, like a little pop punk type music. Like a little bit more edge, a little bit more teen angst. Whereas Sabrina went a little bit more like Dolly, like Dolly Parton type sounding music. Yeah. And like those were two things that nobody else was doing. Whereas like men have the subsession with like only doing things other men are doing. The Freddie Mercury thing like we need to leave it at the door. We need to leave it at the door. So does it. It's so weird, like this obsession with him. It's because Harry Styles is the only kind of modern exam, like the only example we have right now of a pop star. Yeah. And I feel like all the men look at him. And obviously they've seen the audiences really relate to this kind of like flashiness on stage and this kind of like exploration of gender through fashion and all this kind of stuff that Harry Styles embraces. And I think just so many of them fumble it. And like him being the modern poster boy of what a pop star is doesn't tell people enough because his references are so reliant on like 70s and 80s pop stars anyway. But I think that there is this like authenticity to taste. Yeah, right. Like you can tell like he's an eccentric man, right? Like they're like that little like picture got leaked of him in those like short short red shorts or whatever. And like you know what I mean? Like you see these random pictures of them and you're like he's got something going on there. Right? Like they're like it feels real. And I also think like a very interesting thing too is like what with Harry specifically is like that sort of like credibility has to be earned. You know like Harry did experience the same type of backlash Benzen Boone experiences now. The reason Harry doesn't get it anymore was because he's like adhered to the same vision for six years. Yeah. So like there is at some point you have to be like, well I might not like this or I might not love it. But like it's very hard to like look at it and say that's not him, right? Like if you've been doing something for that amount of time. He's not switching lines because of criticism. Right. I mean, he never has. Right. Or like to sell an album, which was like also the other I think like issue with the Benzen Boone thing was it was not about it being one or the other. It was trying to be both, right? It was like I want to have a blue jumpsuit when I know I'm going before Lady Gaga. But when I know my album is in a Walmart in Kentucky, I want the cover of it to be me like dirty holding an American flag. Right. And it's like you don't get to be both, right? But no gay actual like queer person gets to like have that experience of you know, like when this is not costume that they get to take on and off. Yeah. When they're in the mood to sell a record. I think how his packages are so distinguishable. Like you look at the album cover, it matches the music, it matches like he's speaking about it. Whereas this like flipping back and forth on what your music actually means to me is how to kind of not define yourself as a superstar. And I think that's exactly like the persona and like artistry factor. I was talking about before earlier, right? Like that's like why somber is so good, right? Like he looks like the music he makes, you know? He looks like dark and sad. And like he's this like super tall skinny guy, right? Like he just like looks like in like even like the single covers are very like noir and black and white. Yeah. And I also think it's very interesting that he sounds like a band, but isn't a band. Yeah, and it's in this age where bands in terms of like bands who have commercial success are almost completely gone. Yeah, completely. Like his influence feels like it's more like Julian Casablanca's from the strokes. Yeah, it is like a pop star that was existing around that same time. And I don't think we would have labeled him pop like we do now if he was making it back in that time where there was Justin Timberlake and other people like that. No, absolutely not. Um, there is also honestly, it's like he's rock. Like I do like something about it. Like literally what is a Gen Z rock star? Yeah, it doesn't exist. It's somber, right? Like somber is the closest thing to like a like a what rock has become. Um, and is very cool. Like that his references are so like 80s rock. You get you even feel like beach boys influence. And the way he like layers his vocals and stuff. And that's what is like very, very interesting is this idea of somber is a solo artist following a lot of the blueprints and tropes of bands. Yeah, which is really interesting. Like no one has been able to crack that. Um, because a lot of the men like I'm like talking about, you know, even Michael Jackson and Justin Timberlake and Harry Styles came from bands. Yeah. And like in this era of like post band world, nobody knew how to like develop a front man, I guess. Exactly. Yeah. Well, I think you even see it with Harry Styles. Like he essentially treats his on stage performance like he's like Mick Jagger in the Rolling Stones. Yeah. Rather than being a solo artist. And I feel like that's a similar thing that sombers doing with a different influence of like alternative music. Maybe even time in Paul is like the best. Yeah, honestly, I always think like, it's like 80s rock mixed with like the neighborhood is another one that I would or like curse the bail even. Like I could see that sort of influence. Another interesting thing I think about somber is like somber is yearning. You know, like you see all those TikToks about girls and like men need to bring back like romance and being helpless for man tics and yearning over women. And somber is literally like, I don't want the children of another man to have the eyes of the girl that I won't forget is the song. Like he is like down bad. Like down a gregiously bad. Which is way better to go. Yeah. And it's like the pendulum of culture swings. You know, it's always like, and it's not a surprise to me that in a time when there is the most, you know, like misogyny and animosity towards women, especially on the internet. And this sort of like all Ryan Pipeline that has developed that like the men in music doing the best are the ones that are like heartbroken and sad and yearning over a girl, right? It's like somber and role model. The two I always think of. And also, I think it's very, again, like talking about this pendulum of culture. Like what differentiates them from like rap and country? Yeah. Like I feel like the rap country perspective is very like, I want a girl who drives a tractor or like, I want a girl who like, you know what I mean? Like I don't know, like the obsession of like, like trying to have like the perfect girl as opposed to like, I am not the perfect man. Yeah, that's very interesting. And like comes into play a lot when you talk about Morgan Wallen. Yeah. Yeah, it's wow. I'm having trouble like thinking about why I mean, there's no right or wrong answer. And why I would not consider like Zach Brian or Morgan Wallen a pop star because essentially they are at the center of pop right now. I do think that there is this thing that we, and like where music is now is like we, if anything gets to a certain size, it's pop. Yeah, right. Like that's what we like Morgan Wallen, like you can say is pop. And like it's not because it's pop music, but it's because it has popular appeal. Like most people, over 50% of people know him. So that's when they're just like, it's pop now, right? Whereas someone like Drake has like made pop, like best I ever had is a pop song. Views is like, has like pop songs, you know what I mean? But I guess like the reason I would say somber is pop. At least to me is like this primarily female audience. And this marketing goes like a heartthrob. And also like has really like leaned on this idea of being very personality forward. I think there's another thing, right? Like you see him doing interviews and clips on TikTok. Like he's like very like funny and young sounding. And that's not something that like the weekend is doing. Yeah, I actually think you've kind of nailed it in terms of us trying to bridge together pop stars of like the Y2K movement with them now. And those are like the three things that still makes them a pop star. Even though they're not doing any of the things like choreography and like doing the kind of poster boy dress up thing, they still have those three things that every male pop star throughout history has had. Right. And like not every man has to do choreography. I just want them to do something, like anything at all, you know what I mean? Like Harry doesn't do a choreography, but he gives something on stage that feels like it replaces the choreography in a way. Yeah, and there's a hiding behind a guitar. And there's like a clear vision for the show and what you would wear to the show and what other people, you know what I mean? Like some sort of artistry component as we're talking about before. Yeah. Where it feels all encompassing in some way. Whereas like, what would you wear to a Benson Boone concert? Yeah. Like, even then it's like, you're saying, I would wear the American flag, because like, I can name 70 people you would wear an American flag, sure, like two. And it's like, it could be Morgan Wallen or Wanda Del Rey, right? And they're like, not at all similar. Right? Like there needs to be a deeper like edge to that. And like, that's like, I can tell you clearly what I would wear to a Billy concert versus what I would wear to an Olivia Rodrigo concert versus what I would wear to an Ariana Grande concert, right? Like, there's three completely different outfits. Yeah. And like, I would know totally. That's it. It's something that you, I don't, I haven't been frequenting Drake concerts recently, but I would imagine there's not that kind of defined outfit of what you wear outside of what's defining kind of the broader hip-hop culture, you know? Right. Like, are they wearing something that's uniquely Drake? Right. But that's why I would say, like, same as Zach Bryan. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was going to say like, um, comparing like Drake to Tyler the creator. I know what I would wear to Tyler a creator show. Exactly. And it would change based on the album. And without the beauty of it, right? Like, he has a unique character and a unique story and color palette. And like, like, he spends so much time crafting this vision before you've even, like, heard the music. And like, that is, you know, something that he has really, really, like, figured out. What's interesting, though, is I do think that there are some men who are like close, but have not figured it out. Yeah. Some of the ones that, like, I just popped my mind. And honestly, interestingly, pretty much, they're all gay, which is the interesting thing we can discuss of, like, Troitobon, Omar Apollo. Yes. You can say Sam Smith, even, or especially like, like, at one point, Lil Nas, another example of like, people who are close, but not there. But I also don't know why they've had a brief moment. And it hasn't lost it. You know, like when you think of Troy, who is technically doing everything that a pop star, shorter and does do from the choreography to the wild building. Yeah. Has his moment with Rosh, and it doesn't linger as long as something like Bratzama. Yeah. You know, I really felt that with sweat, like sweat was such an interesting example where it was so, like, like, Charlie was so branded, so uniformly, like, there was that giant green curtain at the start of the show. And like, Troy had incredible moments, such good choreography. The part where they, like, lift him up and do the keg stand, everything. But like, his choreography is, is right. Amazing. Yeah. But there's no consistency of vision. There is no consistency, even like Troy, like, in terms of, like, ethos, like, what does he stand for as an artist? Yeah. I'm not sure I would say outside of him being like the gay pop star. Right. Like, he doesn't, he hasn't found some sort of, like, profound statement that he's like trying to make with his music. And I think that's like where it, I don't know. I totally agree with that. And I think that's the issue that they all have is there's this expectation. Maybe it's a pressure or somewhat of being a queer artist that they need to be making queer music in some kind of way. And that comes with pressures that, that makes them constantly be, but feeling like they're playing towards two different audiences. And I feel this a lot with Lil Nas X, where his marketing's been very heavily reliant on like the hate train and kind of going at the right wing and trying to like stir that up, rather than just like focusing on what he's got there, like, adoring fans kind of thing. Their very existence is provocative in a way to many people. And I just think that that becomes a difficult thing to figure out how you're going to play that. And how you're going to navigate that. No, totally. I think with like Lil Nas specifically, what was interesting about him was like, he really found this sort of edge that works, like what you're talking about, like really poking the bear of controversy. And he was like, I remember when he did those, I think it was like a Nike club of shoes. And like, there was like a devil star on and people just hate, like they just hate it. It's like everything he did was so like, there was somebody's mom in like the Midwest at church who was like complaining about it, you know what I mean? And like that worked so well for him. But I think what's there was no like, what else? Like it felt like something like he did it like three times for three albums. And it's like every time it's going to be less exciting than the first time. Yeah. And there was no like, what do you stand for? What is different about you? Yeah, because there's a lot of people who hold the same opinions that he has. And once you've really made a statement about that, like when he released that song J-Christ, for example, it was like, we know you stand for all these kind of things. And even the people you were stirring up have moved on from you. Like they know that you're so far in like resistance to them. And you've pushed the boundaries so far that they've kind of like turned away anyway. So like that attention's gone now. And now the other side's wondering like, what do we have? What what what like aesthetically do you have to give us that's like unique or a different point of view, I think. And I think he kind of did it with hotbox like this year, but the attention like the hype is. Yeah. I feel like he's somebody who's like had that epiphany and is like on their way back to like, I was right. He was watching like making a lot of take talks about it. And I was listening to him talking. I like, I very much felt like he like understood that now. Yeah. It was like, okay, like what is Lil Nas X beyond this beyond Old Town Road and like satirizing what is, you know, very like the music culture of middle America. Yeah. Building something beyond that. Someone interesting that I've had a lot of conversations about is Omar Apollo. Yeah. Because he's one of the ones where like, like I think the interesting thing about like a Troy, for example, compared to Omar is like, like the reason Harry has really, really worked with this eccentric like persona. I think it's because he like, it works for the girls in the gaze, but also like my mom would find him attractive. And like, I don't think my mom would find Troy attractive. Yeah. I do think she would find him more Apollo attractive. Do you know what I mean? Like something about this like ability to balance like the masculine and feminine presenting persona has really, really worked in pop. Yeah. And Omar is somebody who I think could really, really do that in a way, but hasn't like found like the proper like footing or branding or like image. I don't know. For him, it comes down to the sound for me, like he really sits in more of an alternative kind of lane, I feel. Whereas maybe if he was coming through now with the sombers and like role models, there would be a different positioning of him. But I think when he was doing it like the fact that Evergreen when crazy was kind of just such a bit in a bottle moment, it didn't really have to do with people out large investing in him and his brand. You know, it was more about the song going viral on TikTok. I just wonder if he's like come at the wrong time because I think he makes incredible music. Me too. I think that he has that like heartthrob thing. Yep. On lock. He's like in movies. He has a good presence on like social media. I just think he's like one kind of world building album away from people really understanding what Omar Apollo is about. Whereas right now people just think like he's cool. Yeah, that's no, that's that's a great thing. I feel exactly how you described about Conan Gray. Yes. I feel like Conan Gray is going to be one of those one of those artists where like people don't actually listen to his music that much. And then one day he's going to have some big song and everybody's going to claim that they always listen to him. 100%. Like that is how I feel is like what's going to happen with Conan Gray? You know, like his most recent album was incredible. It was actually one of my favorite albums of last year. Like found heaven. He's the only one who like did this like sort of like Freddie Mercury reference. I felt like well. Yeah. And in a way that like didn't feel like just ripping off the sound but was like completely new. Yeah. So good. So good. Yeah. Some of the best production he's ever had. Like it was such an incredible album. But he's just like I think he's a hit away from having his short and sweet moment. Yeah. A short and sweet moment is what it is. Is right. Or like consistency. I think too. Like like that is like another thing. Like he needs to have a like a short and sweet but also with the consistency of what short and sweet was. Like all of the songs were so similar on the album are like touched on the same themes and had a specific color and a kiss mark and a uniform and the short skirt and like you know what I mean? Like short and sweet was like the most like branded album I've ever seen in a beautiful way. Yeah. And like that's like what the magic of it was. Yeah. And right now like when I think of Conan Gray, you know he's talking about how he wrote a song called vodka cranberry but like doesn't drink. Right. And I'm like, I'm like, okay. So like what did you like that? Like that's not like the consistency of of whatever something else would be. I don't know. I felt like his last album was really good but I struggled to know who he was through that album. Whereas I got a really strong idea of what Sabrina Carpenter's personality was from Short and Sweet, where it's not one, I feel like the aesthetic was almost heavier than what he was, or almost louder than what he was saying on the album. It was difficult to come away from that album and be like, "Oh, I know Conan Gray." Whereas I feel like his new music, he is actually locking into something that feels like we might be getting closer to the heart of what Conan Gray is. And once he zones into that, then I really think that Conan is potentially the next massive male pop star. Totally. But I don't think it's for sure. I don't know either. I don't know what it's going to be. I literally think it's going to be one song. Literally that is my take. It's going to be one song. Yeah. He eats an espresso. Bokka Cranberry doesn't have the same ring too. No. No. Close. We're going to try a few more drinks. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, whatever. Then the last thing I really wanted to talk about is what I call the genre with my friends is white people wedding music, which is literally like Alex Warren, Benson Boone. It's like them trying to recreate the model of Ed Sheeran is literally how I feel. It's a label trying to recreate that and what blows my mind is I don't know a single person in my life who listens to those artists. But they are constantly like number one on like every chart ever made, and I don't know. Like what is happening? Well, you need to take a road trip through the middle of America. I don't think we do. I'm sure that's like where it is, but like I don't want to. Yeah. I mean, this whole brand and the reason why it gets embraced by the people it does is because there's something very anti pop star about it, even though we see that in like a kind of lame way, almost. Yeah. A lot of people see that as being a very intentional resistance to manufactured music and Ed Sheeran when he comes, he represents relatability in a new kind of way in the same way that a lot of artists were like a Dell around that time. Interesting. And so I think that because he was able to show some kind of vulnerability and I'm not even talking about the lyrics. I'm talking about just having an acoustic guitar. Yeah. For some reason, people see that as such a like rebellious show of like being vulnerable and being relatable and that has just continued on to where we're seeing it right now like more than ever, I think in the charts is that this idea of people like, I can relate to that more than I can relate to, I can't even think of a map, but they they think they can relate to it more than they can relate to someone like Sabrina Carpenda because her music to them, they perceive it as being like too smooth, too like to introduce, who just like conceived in the machine. Yeah. And because these guys have like more of an earthy kind of walk to them and like a really acoustic vibe. Yeah. People are like, oh, that registers is relatable and real and they're organic. They're not realizing that these people are just as cooked up in the machine. Because what's crazy is exactly the way you are describing why you think that like people would dislike someone like a Sabrina or something is why I just like them. Like that kind of music is so like especially if you've like been in the music, you really understand how like factory produce that music is and how like it is created for radio consumption. Yeah. It's like, it's not country music, but it can get country radio play because there's like an acoustic guitar there. It's not Christian music, but like they say Jesus once so it gets Christian radio play. Like it's just so much of like this. And then also like specifically like the like the Alex Warren types, too. Like then it becomes there's like these random collaborations that emerge, right? Like where we see like you like Benson with Brian, thank you. And then like Alex Warren was like Rosé from BLACKPINK, you know, I'm like, these people have nothing to do with each other at all. There's no overlap of fandom, right? But it's literally just like we have middle America guy who we need to be a pop person. And we have K-pop pop girl who we need to get liked by middle America. So like, yeah. But this is the Ed Sheeran model like down to the ground. His was always about random collaborations that would make this genre that was perceived to be a little too edgy for certain parts of the country. Ed Sheeran like made it palatable. He wore it down a bit and then suddenly like a Travis Scott collaboration could be played on commercial radio like before he had made that crossover. And he had Ed Sheeran like Ed Sheeran is like the drop of milk or something. No, literally. And that's like such a great way to think about it. It's like turning down like the spice to speak. And that's why it's like desirable from a collaboration standpoint. Yeah. And it's like you're getting a window into this very vanilla world. And I think if they were to embrace the pop star thing, it would make them less relatable in that kind of way. You know, if Ed was suddenly to do a fully choreographed, two hour where he like flew across the stadium and stuff like that, people would be like, what's happening? Yeah. I don't feel connected to you anymore. Like I'm used to you with a loop pedal on stage, like feeling like I'm your best friend. And now I feel like I need to idolize you, which I think is like a different. Very interesting. Whereas I don't want to feel like I can relate to you, you know, I want my pop stars to be larger than life. I want to feel like they're doing something that I could never do in a way. Oh, I think it's a mix of both. I think it's a mix of both. It's a mix of both. Yeah. Yeah. Or people who have like really romanticized the come up. Like that was the magic of Dogey. It's like, you relate so deeply to who he who she was, which makes who she is now even better. Yeah. That makes sense. 100%. But yeah, thank you so much for coming on, dude. I love talking about this topic. I don't feel like we could go forever. Oh, we could. I didn't like scratch the surface of things I wanted to say. Yeah. And it's so interesting. Like, I really want a man to figure it out. I want sombre. We invest in Marcus, please. Like somebody. Yeah. Who is your like, if you've got a horse in this race, who are you betting on? Sombre. Sombre. For sure. One album away, I think, but he needs to like, have us sound. Like I understand who he is as a person now. I don't understand anything about who he is as an artist. Yeah. I don't think there's any consistency in music and that I think is like the last thing he's missing. But what about you? Who's your horse in the race? I think Conan will be where I'm putting my money. There you go. That's a good idea. I think he's got, he's set up the law enough, yeah, that it's like ready to pop with one record. What? And I hope it's this one. Yeah. It's a Taylor thing. No one else is doing it. Yeah, exactly. It's a good, tight thing like that. Yeah. He's good at that. He is good at that. Yeah. Like he's just not, there's not as much like overarching coherence. I also don't feel like he like, like I don't see him posting a TikTok as much as they see like role model. Like he is not as in the trenches and stuff. Yeah. Anyways, it's such a pleasure to have you on. Thank you for having us. We're going to do it again sometime. Yeah. Thank you so much y'all for watching. Don't forget to subscribe. And we'll see you next week. Bye.