The day everything changed

Good morning, good afternoon, good evening. My name is Liam, I'm here today with my good friend. Matthew is Liam. And you I have joined us on the Dad Still Standing Podcast. This is episode two, or at least we think it's episode two depending on how we put it out. We've decided to record a few of them in a row so that we've got some content to put out straight away so you guys aren't kind of the latest we've produced in this podcast. You're tuned in because you have in some way a connection to losing a child, whether that's you've lost it yourself or your partner or your friend or family member of someone who's lost it and we're going to be talking to you around everything that happens in the first week after losing a child. So when Matt and I were planning this episode, initially we thought six weeks didn't we Matt as kind of the first big topic we would we would try and tackle. Yeah, that was the first first segment I think we wanted to cover and then we've gradually worked down from there and scouted it down to probably the first week I think, haven't we? Yeah, we thought the first six weeks would probably be the right amount of time really and then, like I said, as we started planning suddenly dawned on us just the amount of things that we would need to cover in that first week, which is why that's going to be the real focus of what we're looking to discuss in tonight's episode. So when we'd originally decided to do the first week, what suddenly dawned on Matt and I, is that we hadn't told each other our stories and how we came to lose children. And so when we were planning it, we realised, oh, actually, we probably need to discuss it with each other and we wanted to do that live. So we wanted to talk to each other, record it, tell our stories and then at some point put that out. So you're hearing this episode in the context that Matt and I have now actually told each other our stories. So we heard it for the first time with each other last week, didn't we Matt? Yeah, yeah, I think you told me your story last week and then the week before I told you mine. And we're going to put that out. So when we're talking today, we wanted to talk to you about all of these different aspects of what happens in that first week, but we wanted to actually know each other's story first. So at some point in the future, we're going to put out that are telling each other's stories so that you can hear us experience it for the first time as a listener, but also as Matt and I as hosts of this podcast, we wanted to hear it together as well. So that's going to be coming up probably in a few weeks or so, but we'll make sure that goes out. So when it comes to the first week, we really kind of working out how do we help someone and one of the challenges that we found was where do we pitch the show? So who is the ideal listener? Who are you that's listening in? And what was some of our thoughts around that Matt? I think our first thought was that if you have very, very recently lost a baby or found out that the horrible news that you're going to lose a baby, you're probably not going to want to listen to this podcast right now. It's probably not going to be for you, but it will probably be useful retrospectively to listen to it and it will probably be helpful in that respect. But like I say, if you have literally just lost a baby, you're probably not going to be listening to us talk about the first week because you're going to be going through that yourself and you're going to be far too busy to sit and focus on what we're saying. I think it's probably one of the main takeaways. A lot of the other topics we're going to talk about over the coming weeks will be ones where you may have lost the child and then you're going to be going through this. So when we talk around about counselling, when we talk around loss through life and trying again and religion and returning to work, when we talk around those topics, I think it can be really helpful because people are thinking actually that's coming up for me. Or is this episode quite difficult because as Matt says, you don't imagine people are going to be playing this in the hospital. So in part, this will be around Matt and I talking through our experiences of what that felt like for ourselves and our partners and families. But also, if you are listening and you haven't lost a child but a friend has, this will hopefully be an idea of what they're going through or what they've been through recently and in some ways hopefully that will be helpful as well. So where do we start? At the beginning, as I like to say. Yeah. But I think the best starting place is probably that moment that you find out that you're told those absolutely horrific words of, I'm really, really sorry we can't find a heartbeat. Which words, I don't know when ever wants to hear. I think that's probably the best place to start and probably to talk about what immediately after that you're going to be feeling emotionally. And I know from my point of view, it was a mix of complete hopelessness and complete numbness at the same time, which is probably a strange way to describe something when you're talking about feelings of being numb gives you the idea that there's no feeling. But I'll just remember feeling that hopeless that I was actually numb and I couldn't actually see a way forward. So that's certainly one way of how I felt and that's probably how you're going to be feeling how you did feel or how the person you're trying to support has felt and is feeling. I don't know about you, Liam, that's certainly what I went through and what I felt. It's almost for me it was disbelief. I think it's the emotion that I went through immediately almost like I know like you're wrong. Like this can't be true. How can this be true? I'm not prepared for this. My family's not prepared for this. I'm looking at my wife and thinking I know you're not prepared for this. Yeah. And just shock. Yeah, kind of how can this be happening to me? Type feeling. I remember feeling that how can this be happening to me. Like you say disbelief at the fact it was actually happening. So yeah, you're probably there's probably lots of feelings like that at the moment of completing that to disbelief. It won't seem real. And you won't understand either about the important thing to mention is that within the first week you don't need to try and understand. It's emotionally draining for the first however long after losing a baby but to then try and put it into context and try and understand what's going on. I would just say personally having gone through it don't even bother. Yeah. You're not even bothered. That's not something for you to do. That's something for you and a counsellor and for your support network to try and do later down the line. There's nothing you need to be doing straight away. And I think that question of like why, why us, why me. Obviously I think we spoke about that a lot. And still do now to an extent. But I don't remember thinking that in the moment. So I just still didn't believe it was true. Yeah. I was a different for you guys. A little bit different. Purely because of it having lost three babies. I remember on the third one just literally that bit of my reaction. Like what have I done to deserve this? I must have been a right arsehole in a previous life for someone to be kicking me in the nuts this hard. Because that's what you feel. That's probably an accurate feeling of how I felt. Like that total winded feeling of someone running up full power and kicking me straight in the gonads. Which I'm sure a lot of people would want to do. But I just remember life thinking what have I done for life to be doing this to me. So I think probably with the first loss and then losing Harry. Probably it was just complete disbelief at what was going on. And then when we went on to lose Daisy, then thinking what have I done to deserve this? I don't deserve this. And you're still at the hospital going through this? Yeah. Yeah. And you've obviously for a lot of. Well, I say a lot. I don't know if it's a lot. I'm assuming it is. But it might not be. So obviously with our loss, when we lost Paloma. We stayed in the hospital because Daria was giving birth. Well, was in labour. That's when we lost Paloma. So we obviously stayed in the hospital. for a few hours but for other people there would have gone home in between if it was say miscarriage or yeah or then you know the new the loss was going to come but they had to wait for the contractions to start. Yeah you're almost set to um we like we went home we went home with when we lost Harry and when we lost Daisy after finding out um we went home so we almost had to pause it like pause the hospital situation get on with your get on with your life for two days act as normal as you can and then go back and then kind of re you know re don't know what the correct word is probably just rejoin with your emotions that you'd left at the hospital I suppose um but like you say there will be there will be people that like us have been sent home to come back and deliver their baby a couple of days later and there will be you know guys like you and you and Darry are that it was a continuous process up until the point of delivery um and it's um it's interesting because obviously ahead of us talking tonight I'd spoken to Darry about it and what I forgot and I don't know how you figured I figured how much time we went back in and out of hospital yeah after like in in the first two weeks after giving birth so there were there were huge complications when after Darry gave birth and she said it's okay for me to talk about this because I we didn't mention it in the when I told you my story so I did check if she said it was fine but there was um like we almost lost Darry at in the delivery room um and that was her horrific because I'm looking at my child who's died and then I'm looking into my wife's eyes and she's telling me that she's going to die and there's what felt like a thousand doctors and nurses in the room and it's all going off and they're trying to you know stabilize her um and what had happened was there was retained placenta yeah and so there was a lot of blood clotting and a lot of issues and she had ever dripped and she had a blood transfusion um but but they stabilized her and she was fine so after a few days we went home and we'll obviously go on to that in a moment but we ended up coming back in because she had um she had a a a hemorrhage at the house um and so we went back into hospital and did another night there and this is a few days later and then we got sent home and then she had another hemorrhage and then we went back in um and they realized that they'd left some placenta still or they'd left something still inside of her so we were in and out in and out hospital for ages and it all becomes a blur because I remember for a while we didn't quite process what was happening because we're still in the hospital um and she had to go in for surgery and she had the surgery and then came home and we um she came home for a few days had another hemorrhage at the house got rushed into hospital where they basically told us that whatever they had planned to remove during the procedure they hadn't removed it and it was still there but it sent us home so then we had to go through it again but I mean in the space of the two weeks after losing polymer I'm sure we were in the hospital like seven nights out of that yeah and just I totally blanked that out now but we literally were doing a lot of that grieving still in the hospital and not far from the not far from the um the maternity ward yeah to be honest yeah and knowing that's what it happened yeah you you know you probably blocks that out as a coping mechanism you've not done it consciously but as part of your as part of your like grief process you block that out I haven't honestly I haven't thought about that in so long until she said it the other day yeah but the fact that we had to return back into that back into where it happened two or three times because you know and because you know you know you know womb and and so it's like you know that's the area that's the area of the hospital we need to be and that's where the specialists are it's just horrific having to still be around other mums after you've lost the child yeah it's yeah it's um it is like you say that's where the that's where the experts in their field are when it comes to baby loss but unfortunately it's also the place where the maternity unit is um and I remember I know certainly at Harlow when you go into their specialist bereavement suite it's called star room you actually have to go into through the like the double doors actually onto the maternity wand but then star room is directly on your right but you can still if it's quiet you can still hear you know um babies cry and then you know the noises that you associate with a maternity wand um but again like I've not really thought about that and that's heartbreaking yeah I'll good yeah I'll good yeah when like the first the only thing you the first thing you hear you know when you when you when you have a child is the child crying isn't it that's literally that and that is the I say the trigger that is the well that is the trigger for you to know that everything is okay that the child is crying and for to have a a birth and then not have that sound it's a a definite silence isn't it yeah really it's it's absolutely deafening um so but like I don't think you know I don't think the hospitals sell it up intentionally that way I think it's just as you say you know I work with the delivery there can be complications with the delivery and they need the experts on hand and you know the our listeners will will realise when they're hearing us tell our story that we both had instances where we had to hit that orange button on the wall and then we filled up with you know every every um I say Tom Dick and Harried that's just a term a term phrase but you know every every nurse and every person perhaps medical staff on the maternity unit coming and effectively save your save your wife yeah yeah yeah um so that's I think you know that's that's probably why they do it but maybe I don't know maybe at some point we'll get a medical professional one and we can ask them and they will be able to tell us who knows and speaking of medical professionals like midwives play such an important role in in that moment don't they and not just in that moment and I know like I go into a lot of detail when in my story about the the midwives that really supported us during Paloma's birth um but even after that the midwives who come in and see you and speak to you and not just midwives but the nurses on site that are around to support you in those moments after you've lost the child in the in the next couple of days and however long you're there there's so important yeah oh I think they I certainly got the impression that they were they felt out lost not as yeah probably not as much as we did but they'd felt out lost um and we we had we had yeah we had to again that I talk about in my story we had one particular midwife who was just oozed compassion to be honest um and oozed you know not sympathy it was empathy because she she'd been through it um but she was still a midwife you know um that that's what really struck me was certainly my experience was they the midwives were were brilliant were supportive but also they got on and did the job that we needed them today so um but uh um yeah but I know there are there are probably stories out there where that's probably not happened as well um so I think perhaps me and you perhaps quite I say fortunate obviously we've been through baby loss sort of but we're quite fortunate in the summer and midwives we got but also that's that's one of the difficulties isn't it is whoever you talk to it's such a different experience at each hospital in terms of what was your midwife like what was your delivery like what was the did you get did they get enough drugs during what happened did what was the facilities like did they you know did you have somewhere to go afterwards was there a bereavement midwife on site it's so varied between each hospital and also each experience it's really difficult When we talk about it with the football team, there's so many different experiences out there. Yeah, absolutely. 100% right. It's, I think, well, yeah, I think they are at that, but they are all different, aren't they? Yeah, they are all different, which is why everyone's journey on, you know, the baby loss and grief is so different. And I'm sure there's going to be people listening to this who are thinking, well, I didn't have that. Well, that isn't my experience. I had a horrible experience with my form or my partner. We had no complications afterwards. There's so many different types of loss and after the care, which is why in some ways, what we were looking to do with the podcast is not just, you're not just be about mine and your, or mine and your experience. Matt, but also about, you know, how do we get those experts on who are going to tell us what it's like? Yeah. Yeah. From their side. Yeah, I mean, we are, we are not experts. We can, as our listeners will realise we can talk a lot, but we are not experts. Because it's interesting, like, I would really like to get a bereavement with Midwifer or Midwifer who has had to deal with this. Puelling to hear it from the other side because it must be so hard to be there for someone when they've lost. And I remember, I remember because I was in it, but I remember telling you the other week that when we lost Paloma, there were three other losses that day or two other losses plus ours. But that must be so hard to deal with if you're, you know, on site and you have to deal with, like, grieving parents. Not that, you know, that isn't as bad as what we went through, obviously, but there must be such a toll on that individual as well. Yeah. I'll tell you what I would be interested to find out is whether the build up kind of, not an immunity, but kind of numbness to it. And whether it's something that all midwives are expected to deal with or whether it's, you know, there are midwives that, whether it's a case of, you know, you put your hand up and say, yeah, yeah, I'll tell you that. Yeah, I'll do that. Or you say, I don't want to do that. That's what I'd be quite interested to find out is whether it is a, I use it term specialty, whether it is a, you know, something that. You have to volunteer for or whatever as part of your midwife training, you are expected to just be able to deal with it. And it be interesting to know, so if there are any listeners out there who are midwives or nurses who have to deal with this or doctor. And you want to get in touch the. It's @DadStillStanding on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter, and you can email us at [email protected] Getting in touch, we'd love to hear from you. We'd love to get you on the show. We're really keen to try and get us wide understanding as possible just because it will help other listeners to hear that side of it and to get a kind of perspective from you guys. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, be really, really good. One of the big. I say big moment. One of the big memories for me and the memory that I can associate with the feeling is leaving the hospital. And I just remember leaving the hospital feeling completely broken. Back trying to walk as tall as I could. What do you mean by a walk as tall as you could? Probably that stiff-up-alip thing, but because what I was very aware of was that I was leaving the hospital. My wife was leaving the hospital as well. So I had to be there for her. And I think, again, leaving the maternity unit when people leave the maternity unit. If you're a member of the public outside the maternity unit and you see two people will get out of the maternity unit. The first person you look at is the woman. If you think about it 100%, I'm not a better man, but I would guarantee that if you're sitting outside the maternity unit and two people will get out of the maternity unit at the same time, the first person you look at is the woman. And the next thing you look for is a baby. And when we were walking out the maternity unit, one of those things was missing. And I just remember thinking I should be walking out holding a baby carrier. And it is that image, isn't it? That's the one you see. That's the one you see on Facebook, on Twitter, on Instagram. That's the one that you share around. You've got that iconic image of dad walking down corridor with car, BBC in-hand. And you've got those double doors in front of you. That's the image. I think I remember doing it and feeling completely invincible because I was walking out when we had Freddie. First child, I remember walking out of the hospital, holding the baby carrier, feeling absolutely fucking invincible. And I did the same thing with Lily. I remember walking out, holding my carrier in my daughter, feeling absolutely top of the world. Nothing could knock me down. And then, you know, within two years later, I was walking out. The same situation completely broken. So, but I think, you know, that's why I was trying to stand as tall as I could because I was trying to show. And not. I was trying to be proud. I was trying to just kind of get through it. So, not only get through that awkward walk along the long corridor upstairs and out of the hospital to the car. Whilst at the same time supporting Lauren, I'm making sure she was okay. And she didn't have to see anything. She didn't want to see or that my upset are even more than she was. I remember when we lost polymer, we had a few days in the snow drop suite, which is where they allow you to spend a couple of days or wherever many hours with your child afterwards. I've gone into a lot of detail with Matt around what that experience was like and how really lovely it was to be around polymer after she'd passed. But I have really, really, really strong memories of those last few moments in the room with her. So, we recorded it, actually. So, we recorded having her in the bed before we put her into the cold-cut. And said our final goodbyes. I've got this really nice video of me kind of undressing her and kind of putting her outfit on that we were going to leave her with. And so we recorded the whole thing. So, I've got like giving her a kiss and wrapping her up and then us kind of crying and talking to her as we were almost saying our last goodbye. And I'm playing with this ball at 41 weeks plus two. So, she was like full-size and like a whole lit holding this baby and like putting her into this cot. I remember you could have a lid on it and I could put her in it but I couldn't close the lid because there was something about that symbolism of closing it, which was too much for me. So, we'd spoken to the nurses before and we'll like look, I'll dress her and kind of say goodbye and I'll put her in the cot but could someone just go in and close the lid for me. And then they take her away and the next time we'll see her is at the. with the funeral director, people. But yeah, I am. That was really tough. And I'm really happy that we did. So, a lot of people will feel differently about this, about photos and videos. I really wanted to take as many photos as possible and as many videos as possible with her because I always wanted to have those memories but I wanted to see it again. And so, often I'll watch these last few moments I have had with her and me talking to her and I mean I'll break down every single time I watch this video I'll break down. But it just reminds me that for a little bit of time, Paloma Dara and I had a moment together and I have that last moment altogether. And so, we sort of kind of. She's dressed in this green little bonnet and outfit and she looks so beautiful. And so, we put her down and then we walked out of all of our stuff together. And I can't remember what it was like leaving the corridor. just remember I'll just kind of try and get out as fast as possible without hearing like the sound of someone giving birth or the sound of a crime baby or and kind of trying to catch the eye of the midwife or the nurses rather that we were dealing with. But that was just, yeah, I can remember it really vividly and also I can see it whenever I want which is nice. But that was, yeah, that was so tough that leaving, leaving that room was harder than leaving the hospital because I knew that was probably the last time I was going to see it as at that moment was my last moment with her. Yeah, that I think is definitely one of the hardest physical things to do I found was yeah was leaving the hospital. Certainly for me the walk from style room to the car park was a pretty long walk and I was just going to say then and then you got a head home. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that returning back to the new normal I suppose is it's no under, we're not under-selling it when we say things will never be the same again if I'm lowering the loss of a child because unfortunately it won't, things will never be the same again. So I think that's the yeah, it's truck kind of, I suppose it's kind of finding your new normal isn't it rather than you know forget the old normal you now have to find a new normal and a new way to returning back to normal as you return home. And I think certainly for us I think people having returned home people kind of almost expected us to return to normal kind of straight away. Yeah and it's those little, it's obviously it's telling the people that you haven't told at the hospital such as like your neighbours what's happened and yeah because like I said people will notice that you've come back from the hospital without a baby and people will have how people will have loads of questions as well. And I think like for us it was really difficult because we planned a home birth so we'd had the pool set up in the front room waiting you know Dara's going to have the birth that morning the morning we lost Paloma so you know almost that we had like water in the pool ready to go and then obviously we were rushed to hospital. Unfortunately we had friends who had come around and had cleaned it all up and I've got rid of everything. You know also that's the other side of it you've got the image of leaving hospital with the baby carrier but also the moment of taking your child you know into that you know that step over the threshold into your home like this is your home yeah and and that and not being able to do that and it just I remember I remember feeling cold yeah and dark. I yeah I just remember feeling numb like I say feeling numb and hopeless at the same time but trying not to show it yeah and that people saying you're right yeah I'm fine well no I'm not fine but you know like I'll literally just lost my baby like a day ago I don't really want to talk to you about it is there kind of what I remember what I remember feeling and you mentioned you mentioned a really good point there it's like our listeners will have to tell people you're always going to have to tell but you'll spend the rest of your life telling people that you've lost a child and it does get easier yeah because you don't show your emotion outward as much yeah over time but it's still a panic in you when you get asked that question but that what was that like that initial telling people who did you tell first can you remember I know who we told but I can't remember what older okay so I remember telling my sister because I'm really really close to my sister I remember telling Lauren's mum and dad I remember telling Lauren's sister and I say I remember I remember us telling with you know we did it together I mean the one I can remember vividly having you know when we lost Harry and when we lost Daisy is like I can shut my eyes and I can just replay it is telling Freddie because when we lost Harry Freddie was five and when we lost Daisy Freddie was six five and six I remember the first time he told him and and this is the I say the beauty of kids we told him we said we googled how to tell a child and we just said to him maybe it was him and my name is Tommy not going to grab to be big and strong like you run straight up to heaven and he just went okay can I watch Telly now and I was like yeah okay and he just sat down watch Telly and then when we lost Daisy he actually asked us and he said Daddy is the baby of mummy's time he's going to grab to be big and strong with me and I said to my mate I'm sorry it is not I just remember that being completely heart-wrenching Jesus yeah that was hard and was what was yeah I can't yeah that I must have been so hard especially because you kind of I suppose in some ways you appreciate the naivety of his emotions so you tell me a bit of this last week or the week before last and when you said it it really reminded me of this I don't want to get all sci-fi geeky because I don't want to I don't want to shut the listeners off right I don't if the numbers drop after this it's because of this comment I'm about to say there we go there's a great guy mate a cup of tea right now for the I'd say two minutes few minutes Liam say you probably want at least five or ten yeah you want to switch to the podcast now's the time there's this there's this scene in Star Trek first contact right way even lost me all right so there's a scene in Star Trek first contact and there's an android called data who has spent you know his whole probiotic life trying to make himself more human so he gets emotions so he develops this thing we can have emotions and him and John Lut Picard who are who's the captain they're going through they're like almost a tense moment going through the spaceship and stuff and they're being attacked and he sort of turns the he's captain and he says something around like I'm going to turn off my emotional chip now because he's getting too scared and he just turns it off and John Lut Picard just looks him because there's times I really envy you yeah just being up a switch off that emotion and and I think that sometimes when you tell children especially young children it's not that they don't care it's just that they don't process it yeah I think is it they don't understand the emotion to be yeah um but I mean Fred like Freddy's Freddy's eight and a half now and he talks about Harry and Daisy not just you know just the other week he said I'm a bit you know a bit sad to date I really are missing Harry and Daisy and I think what me in what me in lorin really aware of is it whilst we've lost the baby he's also lost the baby yeah he's lost the baby brother and he's lost the baby sister um that we're like he's got he's got a bear he's got it's a star wars bear but shortly after we lost Harry we said to him oh is there a now we can now we can now we can bring up now now now it's okay all right you go sorry yeah not Star Trek yeah also now we can bring up the Star Trek references right can I just say to the listeners whilst we're recording this man Liam are on a video call and you didn't see how excited he got when he was talking about Star Trek no it was like you probably there's not a con you probably there's not actually there's not actually a lot there's not actually a lot a lot of Star Trek that I can quote it's just the only bit I could really remember and it resonated so strongly with me being able to switch off your motions I'm so sorry I interrupted what was quite an emotional point about you were ready and and the Star Wars and the Star Wars Teddy. But, but anyway Star Wars is calling the Star Trek, let's just get that out of there. Yep, so we, so shortly after we lost Harry, we went to Builder Bear and we bought him a teddy bear and it's his Harry Bear and he still calls it Harry Bear and if he wants to go and give Harry Bear a cuddle, he goes and gives Harry Bear a cuddle. If he wants, if he wants Harry Bear to sleep in with him, Harry Bear sleeps in with him. He's a little like a little white stormtrooper, a little white stormtrooper, Star Wars bear, or when we, when we lost Daisy, we did exactly the same thing and he's got a little bear, he doesn't call it Daisy, he calls it Ronnie but that's he associates that with, you know, his brother and his sister. But yeah, I think that's what we're, like we were really, really aware of is that he's lost as well. He's, you know, he's on, he might not, he didn't understand it at the time and as he's getting older he understands it a little bit more but he was going on the journey as well. And you, you said something earlier which really interested me which was when you're like, we Googled it. Yeah. We Googled how to tell us a sibling and as part of the planning for this podcast, we said we're going to do an episode solely on telling siblings and how you tell a sibling and and we know someone who's an expert in this area and we'll hopefully be able to get them on because it is really difficult. It's not an easy thing to do. You want to do it the right way and not just the right way for them but the right way for you. Yeah. Sorry, it was one of the first things that weren't through my mind. How the fuck are so Freddie? Because we didn't, we didn't really get an opportunity to think about it because when we lost Paloma, Lily was with us. Yeah. That's one of our daughters. Lily was with us when when we heard them on a bit heartbeat and she was with us when we rushed to hospital and she was like in the waiting room when we found out we lost Paloma. So kind of had to like go out and tell her in the corridor immediately, like a minute after we found out and then bring her in with her mum. So we didn't really get that opportunity to plan it or to think through it was just because kind of, God, this is it. Like we're now we're all dealing with it. We're all in this together. How old was she at that point? First year of secondary school. Whatever that is, 11. Yeah, 11. So old enough that she could really emotionally deal with it and she's super smart and really switched on anyway. So she was right like she was with us if that makes sense. It wasn't like telling. Yeah, she didn't feel like telling a child. It felt like telling enough her adult. And again, I think, you know, we can spend a long time talking about kids and and I think we should and so we're definitely going to do an episode on that. But yeah, it didn't feel like telling a child. It felt like telling an adult. Yeah. Yeah. So Matt, that actually feels like quite a nice place to stop to be honest because I know we plan to do the first week as one podcast. Well, I know we plan to do the first six weeks as one podcast and then the first three weeks and then the first week. And now I think we've actually probably spoken quite a lot here just about leaving the hospital and returning to home. Yeah, I think it's one of those things that as we can plan it or we or we want but as we actually talk about it, we probably realise that there's actually a lot more to talk about than we could ever note down on paper. And as we're talking to each other, obviously, we're remembering things and we're picking up little little bits that we think are important to mention. So yeah, it's probably a good place to leave it and pause it for this week's episode and maybe pick it up next week with regards to getting back home and going on from there. So we've reached home. So I said that's our sound. Yeah, it sounds like a really nice place. And I think you know, it goes back to that. The reason we set this up is a lot of you are going to be hearing this as you're at home. You've already returned back to the house that you left in such a positive mood and now you've come back and it's not the same. And again, just to re-emphasise the thing that Matt and I will say every single week, which is we're here for you. We've been through what you've been through. We're totally honest down. We get it right Matt. We totally get what's going on in people's minds and people's lives. We do. And so some of this may have been triggering and we hope it hasn't been in a bad way. And some of this will have been really difficult to hear. Another stuff you'll be going, that's not the same experience I've had. Or you'll be saying that guy, that dad is saying exactly the same as what happened to me. And I think that's really important. So please reach out to us. All the details are across our Instagram, Facebook and Twitter feeds. It's at Dad's Still Standing. They can also get us via email as well Matt. Yep, Dad's Still Standing [email protected]. And like Liam says, if you get in contact with us across any of those platforms, we will get back to you. And we are here to help you. We're here to support you. And even if you just want to have a little back and forth either, you know, messing your just a little chitchat, then we're happy to do that. And feel free to write us a review as well. If you think this is terrible, then let us know and we'll try and change it. Or if it's so bad, we'll just stop it altogether. And if you think it's really good and helpful, then yeah, please write us a review just so we know, so we get some kind of feedback as to whether this is helpful for everybody in the universe. But if you are out there, you do need support. Please get into contact. We really hope this has been helpful in those first initial stages as you leave the hospital after you've lost a child. And your returning to home. And next time we're going to catch up on everything that actually happens in that first week. So for me, Liam and for Matt. Bye bye. Have a have a wonderful rest of the morning, afternoon or evening. And you've been listening to the dad still standing podcast. Music for this podcast has brought to you by Nivell.