The Day Caroline Hales Surrendered

Speaker 1 Life can change in a day. A betrayal, A diagnosis, A devastation, a breakdown. Speaker 2 This is That day, the podcast where women tell real stories of the moment life changed, the chaos that followed, and the strength they found along the way. No subject is off limits. Speaker 1 I'm Jack, the former coroner turned empowerment coach. Speaker 2 And I'm Kylie, once an HR manager, now a published author. Speaker 1 Together, we help women tell the stories that matter. Speaker 2 By the end of each episode, you'll feel it, you'll learn from it and carry it with you. Welcome to that day. This podcast contains conversations about difficult life experiences. Some episodes may include coarse language and themes such as illness, suicide, infertility or childhood trauma. Please take care while listening and prioritise your well-being. Helplines are listed in the show notes. Speaker 1 Today's guest is Caroline Hales. Caroline is an intuitive healer and somatic therapist who helps people see themselves and their lives with greater compassion. With over 26 years in private practice, she brings decades of experience in healing, counselling, meditation and yoga. But long before this work, there were two defining moments that shaped who she would become on her 18th birthday. A night that began with celebration ended in a near death experience that would stay with her for life. Years later, after multiple miscarriages, she faced another unimaginable loss. The death of her daughter That day brought her to a place of deep surrender, where grief, love, and acceptance coexisted. These moments didn't just change Caroline's path, they became the foundation of her work. Today, she helps others navigate trauma, loss, and healing with honesty, compassion, and a profound understanding of what it means to rebuild a life. Welcome, Caroline. Speaker 3 Thank you. Speaker 2 Welcome. We're so excited to talk to you. Take us back to your 18th birthday. That was just a couple of years ago in Ireland. Can you set the scene for us? What was life like? Speaker 3 So I was 18 in December in the early 80s and Ireland as it was then was so different to the Ireland we have now. My celebrations circled around pub life. Yep. So even though technically I was just at the age of legally being able to drink, I remember that it was quite a common practice for me to be in the pub with my friends in the afternoon. Speaker 1 Having crack? Speaker 3 Yes, having laughter, you know, singing, dancing. And I, there was a group of us who were all in school together and we used to go and mostly travel either through hitchhiking, are on bikes, the back of bikes. Speaker 1 Well. Speaker 3 Motorbikes. Speaker 2 Motorbikes with no helmets I'm guessing. Speaker 3 I'm not sure about the helmets. That wouldn't have been an important aspect of the bike. It was the color of the shape of the bike, the brand of the bike and the voltage. They were really important. OK. Speaker 1 And the guy that was? Speaker 3 And the guy, so there was. So yes, so that was our Sunday afternoon haunt. And it happened that my birthday was on a Sunday. OK, so we met and I remember, you know, the fun and the laughter and where we used to meet was away from my where I lived. So it was about 20 K So I remembered that we came back and we got back into the city, but for some reason three of us decided to go back down there. Speaker 2 So this wasn't a formal party that was organized by your family? Speaker 3 Nothing. No. So this was my, my ability to, to celebrate me, right? So I'm not sure why my family hadn't celebrated. Maybe people didn't celebrate their 18th. Speaker 2 And you're 1 of many. How many siblings do you have? Speaker 3 There I've I have seven siblings. Speaker 2 Wow. And where? Where do you come in the order? Speaker 3 Third, OK, Third child, second girl, OK. And so in Ireland, I think your 21st is a bigger deal than your 18th. So I'm assuming that's what it was. Speaker 2 Right. But did you feel at the time that your parents weren't celebrating you and this was a little bit of rebellion? Or was this, No, I'm just, it's my birthday and I'm going to go to the pub. Speaker 3 I think it's probably it wasn't ever a rebellion against my parents. I loved my parents and I saw the big task that they had in their lives with eight children. Yeah. You know, even at that young age, I mean, I was very connected to financially helping out, you know, I had part time jobs. So it was like it wasn't really a rebellion. Maybe the rebellion was the bikes, the motorbikes, might have been a rebe, the rebellious part and been with bikies. Yeah, You know, that could have been it. It could have been the drinking. But alcohol was fairly, you know what, That wasn't a big deal in my family as far as there was no big deal if you were drinking, there was no shock. There was nothing like that. Speaker 1 Cultural, yeah. And before you go on with the story, can you tell us what part of Ireland just to so we can see? Yeah. Speaker 3 So I was born and raised in Cork and in Cork city I grew up in a beautiful community of people, all with big families, very connected to each other, looked aft out for each other. And my mum was one of eight children as well. So we had a great kind of extended family and lots of love for my aunties. So even though my parents were always overwhelmed and had a lot of responsibilities, We Found Love in all different ways and. Speaker 2 And you were all in, all of you. It's just expectations that you all helped out financially, physically. Speaker 3 When you could, yeah. Do you know when you could and take care of the younger ones. And plus, we, we had a a family where, you know, friends were welcome. We had all the children that would come and be with us and stay with us. And like, that was the community. Yeah, really. Umm. But to be fair, it was also like, it was a dark time too, financially for the country. You know, we hadn't had the Celtic Tiger. That came later when I was an adult there. There were tough times and the church ruled a lot and made a lot of decisions for the families. Speaker 2 Catholic. Protestant. Speaker 3 Umm, I was brought up Catholic and I remember the kindness of people and the generosity of people. Speaker 2 Yeah, and the Spirit. Speaker 3 Yeah, and the care in the, in the hardships, I remember the women showing us how to care for other women and how to look out for women. Umm, you know, in the times that we lived in like 198182, you know, it was a very different time in the world. Yeah. Umm. Speaker 1 So weren't complaining about menopause or. Speaker 3 Know that menopause might have been a relief. You know, menopause might have been a relief because there was no more babies because that option wasn't there. So you have to change your lens when you look back because it was a different world then. Absolutely. And, you know, I find value in that because it helps me understand why I love community. I love people because I grew up, you know, with women who just looked out for other women. Yeah. And cared. Speaker 2 For them you were shown. Speaker 3 Yeah, that's what the women did for us. Umm, And if you didn't have it, somebody tried to give it to you. And if you were lacking in something, then you were certainly, you know, somebody tried to, to, to support you with that. Yeah. Girls weren't really raised to be educated, to be honest. Like girls were raised to get married and have children be. Speaker 2 The caregiver. Speaker 3 Yeah. And to continue that, I mean, I loved education. I loved studying, umm, I got a full time job when I was 15, like say between November and January. So literally I didn't go to school then, but then I'd go back and catch up. So I loved learning. I still love learning, you know, I love the idea of learning about people, but also learning about situations that that I might not understand unless I keep an open mind and an open heart. Speaker 1 Yeah, I just wanted to set the scene because bikies, the 80s, umm, the rebellious Caroline getting on the back and riding around celebrating her 18th. So we're back there now. Speaker 3 So what I remember and it is over 4 decades, you know, but what I remember was obviously haven't drunk too much and it wasn't my first time having alcohol or anything like that, but haven't drank too much. And also there was three of us in the car and I wasn't driving. I didn't know how to drive then. Speaker 2 So this is when the three of you came back? Yeah. So you'd had a celebration. People had left on bikes. Speaker 3 And cars and. Speaker 2 Cars and then three of you decided to go back to the. Speaker 3 Pub, yeah. Speaker 2 Fair enough. I mean, it's your birthday. Speaker 3 It's my birthday and on the way home we were all fairly intoxicated and there was no seatbelts. Speaker 2 No. Speaker 3 And we all fell asleep in the car. Speaker 2 Oh, including the driver. Including. Speaker 3 The driver well, and so luckily for us, I learned afterwards that he woke up as we were going towards a wall. Oh my God. And it was probably like one or two in the morning and umm, I walk as we, as the car turned over and went down the side of the road and the person that was in the back with me fell on top of me. And like the pain of that woke me. And from there, what I next remember was just excruciating pain going right through my system. And this the most beautiful light appearing in front of me and I was out. I was out of my body. I, I knew I wasn't on the earth. I could feel like I was out somewhere, but it was somewhere that was safe and beautiful and quiet. And I remembered there was a choice given to me of either to stay or to leave and to go further towards the light. Speaker 2 And that was the leaving to go towards the light was the leaving. Speaker 3 The leaving. Speaker 2 And it was a very welcoming feeling. Speaker 3 Beautiful feeling calm. I remember the quietness and like I can still feel it as I talk about it now. It's it's not something that's really foreign to me or left me. It's just, I often will get it in meditation where it's just this oneness and I can't say it was a voice, but it just felt like there was an option for me. There was a choice for me and I remember right through my physical body, I felt this power come through me and I chose life. I chose to be here. And like you got to remember, I was asleep, I was already drunk and I was a young girl. So I. Speaker 2 This was an unconscious, clearly. Speaker 3 Yeah. Speaker 2 But resisting that feeling, that pull and that warmth and that welcoming, how do you, how did you do that? Or was it the power that overcame you it? Speaker 3 Was the power from within me right? Speaker 2 To stay. Speaker 3 Really, it was a deep choice in me to choose life. And that's something that's not left me. Like that's something I, I do a lot. I choose to get up, I choose to try again. I choose to live. It's it's, it's something that was birthed in that moment that I I'm still familiar with. Speaker 1 Can you explain how it felt in your body? Speaker 3 It was like an enormous power so that I had the pain come through. But when when I came to this, it was just the most beautiful serene place and it was quiet and there was light and it was it. It didn't feel like it was nowhere but somewhere. And when I made the choice, when the choice came through me to live and to choose life, it wasn't to live actually, it was to choose life. It was just in, it was like there was a lion's roar. It was just like a full bodied like through me and I remembered waking up and climbing out the side of the car and gone up the side of the ravine to get out of the car as it was on its side and to get some help for us. Speaker 1 So you just had this energy to save your life, then you made the choice, and then you did extraordinary things to get out of the car, despite the pain, despite you. Speaker 3 Just didn't even exist really. It was just more there was this is power to survive and go and and also the intellectual understanding of I got to get us. I got to get out of here before it topples or if it topples and also to get help for the others in the car. Speaker 2 So were they unconscious as well? Speaker 3 I don't know. I don't remember. I think no, because we all got out, but I think it was just more of the shock. I mean, they might have been asleep, but obviously the driver woke, but it was more of the shock. And then I remember a car stopping, a woman stopped and picked us up and brought us back to one of the houses and. Speaker 2 Were you injured? Speaker 3 My back was injured from I think the impact my face, my nose was broken. Like I had a lot of facial injuries because I had no hands to support myself. I just literally flopped over. The other thing I remember clearly was I didn't go to the hospital. I wouldn't go to the hospital. Speaker 2 Why? Because you'd chosen life. Speaker 3 No, because I didn't want to upset my parents. I didn't want them to get that call in the middle of the night to say something's happened to her because, I mean, I wasn't a wild child, but I certainly would have been someone you'd be keeping an eye, you know? So I didn't want to upset them. Speaker 1 Wow, my God, did you ever go to the hospital the next? Speaker 3 Day or the next morning? Yeah. Speaker 1 And did you have breaks and? Speaker 3 Umm, I was actually, I was meant to have plastic surgery, but on the day when I did go, they decided I'd healed well enough and that it wasn't going to be that. They might have done further damage with just the impact. Once my eyes stopped. I mean, my whole face was blown up. Oh. Speaker 1 My God. Speaker 3 So I ended up getting out with surface kind of and muscle damage. So there was nothing severely but the impact, the impact of that person. Speaker 2 Landing on you. Speaker 3 Landing on me with him asleep and me asleep and just that's something that I have worked a lot on energetically to clear from my body because that is lived experience that we store in our body. Speaker 1 Right. And does it come back occasionally? Does mean ever come back? Speaker 3 No, no, I I have no pain. That's amazing. Amazing, because I'm sure umm, my, like if I was to get X-rayed now my, you know, my neck would have taken a lot of it too. Speaker 2 Yeah, I'm wondering if you so you didn't break your back. Speaker 3 Or no, nothing like that. I mean, it was it was a muscle that he hit. OK, but I think anyway because I just remember the pain. Speaker 1 And what did your parents say? Speaker 3 On the right side to see how my hand went, like my body remember. Our bodies always remember. But it's also the memory. It's the imprint of the memory. It doesn't have the intellect to kind of understand what it's about, but it's just an imprint. You know, my poor parents were shocked. You know, they were devastated. They were devastated. Speaker 2 Were the other two passengers OK as well? They got out of the car. Speaker 3 Yes, so they were two boys men and so they were fine. Yeah, they were rugby players, they were big men. Speaker 2 You had a rugby player land on you. I mean, obviously listeners can't see Caroline Irish. Tiny, Like tiny. I would not, I would not like a small child to fall on you, let alone a rugby player. My God, an Irish. Speaker 1 Rugby. Speaker 3 Player. Speaker 2 And toppling down the side of a road. I mean, wow. OK, so how did this kind of change the way you went on then? Like, you just turned 18, you've had this major accident. You've had this incredible life force. Really. Yeah. Were you a kind of believer before that we. Speaker 3 Know I've always been connected to energy and being able to kind of see it and feel it and it was something that my I grew up with my mother, you know, she was very, that was our conversations with we talk about those things. So it wasn't foreign to me, but the I suppose what it did for me was that what I seen in hindsight is be before that I was lost. And this, this, this incident helped me to find myself and my deeper nature and brought me on the path towards yoga because that was when I after the pain, you know, when the subsided and also the shock for my body. I went from a real kind of wild child to a very quiet, introverted woman who didn't work. I took time off work. I didn't socialize. I didn't really go out much. I didn't like travelling in cars. I had a lot of what they would now call panic and trauma in me. But and I've tried medication and. Speaker 1 Was it also shame? Did you feel shame that you were celebrating and having fun in in defiance of potentially, I don't know. I'm just wondering if there was a sense of Oh my God I I did this to myself. Speaker 3 I wouldn't have had the awareness. I think what it was was I regretted. Maybe that's maybe I was at that level of regret and also confused about like life as I knew it had ended for me, but I didn't know what my life I didn't. I was in between in transition. So I knew that there was something that I'd experienced, and it also kind of helped me to see how precious life was because things can change. Speaker 2 Yeah, it could have ended very differently. Speaker 3 Yeah, and also, I suppose when you look at like taking responsibility for your behaviour, you know. Speaker 2 I mean, you were 18. I know you were young. It's. Speaker 1 You know I'd. Speaker 3 Already. And I'd already finished school, you know, I'd done my final school exams. So it was that transition that I see in young people where they don't know who they are yet, you know, and. Speaker 2 What path did you think you were on that changed? Like you said, you knew that the life you had had now closed that chapter. So what? Where did you think you were headed? Just working full time? You're a bit lost, but. Speaker 3 Yeah, I didn't know. I really didn't know. Yeah. And all I knew was I didn't want to stay on the medication because it only works short term and that wasn't going to work for me and my personality. It just wouldn't work. That I. Speaker 2 In terms of pain management. Speaker 3 Pain and also the anxiety. Anxiety, just the anxiety of the panic. I think it was the shock and so luckily my mother found a yoga class that was starting up in the city like that was in January of 1982. Speaker 2 That would have been incredibly rare. I would imagine a yoga class in Ireland in the 80s. Speaker 3 They just had started to bring yoga in, so I was in a hall it. Speaker 2 Was meant to be. Speaker 3 It was meant to be and she came with me. Speaker 2 You told her about the light and did you tell anyone about that? Because I feel like depending on your audience, that. Speaker 3 I'm not sure I told anyone about that. Speaker 2 Yeah. Speaker 3 To be honest. Speaker 2 Even your mum, who you knew, kind of. Speaker 3 No, I'm not sure. I couldn't say for definite that was. I mean, the thing was I had survived. Yeah, I was probably just trying to survive and get through today. Today about what am I doing? How am I going to manage these sensations that were coming through me and the fear of being on a bus or a car or yeah, you know, I mean, I didn't learn to drive till I was 28. Speaker 2 I was going to ask actually, did you ever get your license? Speaker 3 Yeah, so I did, do you know? But it was in Australia, right? Yeah. So. So you, I had worked out, I could walk places and you know, so our lives were quite small. So it wasn't like you needed a car like here. Umm. But I'm forever grateful for my mother for reading me and understanding me enough and knowing how determined I was even then that I wasn't I. I wasn't going to do one thing, but I didn't know what I was going to do. Speaker 1 And she was OK with that. Speaker 3 Yeah, well, I mean, there was. That was who I am and who I was then there wasn't. Whether she was OK or not, that was the way it was. Speaker 1 You know it is what it is. And so she's heard about the yoga class. Speaker 3 She found it. Speaker 1 Somehow thought let's go and try this. Speaker 3 Why don't you try this, You know, Also for clarification, yoga was like meditation then, and it was hatha. And it was probably like 90 to 120 minutes of a class was in a cold room. We probably had our jackets on because it was so cold, because it was January. So it's nothing like the glossy magazine versions. Speaker 2 But it worked. Speaker 3 I can tell you it worked. Speaker 2 So what? What about yoga tapped into what you needed at that time? Speaker 3 It just it calmed my system, which now we call the nervous system. It calmed me it chain it. It really helped me to come back into myself but with light and when we used to go once a week, we went for a while and. Speaker 2 Your mum did the class with you. I love that. Yep, she did. And did she enjoy it? Speaker 3 Yeah, well, we used to. They used to separate us because we used to laugh so much. I mean, if you think about it, she had five daughters, three sons. So to have a one-on-one time with your mother, Yeah, so special. Yeah, and I remember she came for the first term. I stayed on. It was very much towards meditation, mindfulness, affirmations and movement. And so it became a much bigger part. I used to help out there, take the money at the counter eventually before I left for Australia. So it became a big part of my next life. Yeah, You know, so I think that's what I got from it was that I was in a, an in a lost place. And then I found myself through adversity in from what I went through and I found myself and my yoga sustains me to today. I mean, it's not like the traditional yoga we see around now, but I mean, I can still do those classes and love them. But my yoga is inside me. It's the philosophy. It's how I look at people, how I care for myself, my breath. Meditation, that's my yoga practice. Yeah. So it's not something that you do. It's something. It's who you are. Speaker 1 Yeah, it's the life force, the Pran. Speaker 3 Yeah, the philosophy of yoga it. Speaker 2 Started off as a physical healing, really. Yeah. And then it became much more. Speaker 1 Yeah, the integration of body, mind, soul is phenomenal and. Speaker 3 Phenomenal. Speaker 1 Once you get that feeling, you can't ever go go back. You can't not have that feeling. And then you need it. You kind of know that you need it to sustain you as a life force. Speaker 3 Yeah, it's a reminder of our truth inside this and I'm so grateful for. I mean, it's it's the meditation and yoga. It's been my practice right through my life. You know these. Speaker 2 Four much better than drugs. Speaker 3 I think some. Speaker 2 Might say I don't know. Depends who you talk to I guess. Speaker 3 And each their own, yes? Speaker 1 Exactly, you know. Speaker 2 So how? How did you come to be in Australia I. Speaker 3 Think it's, it's like all of my life, it was a step by step process, but I really wanted to go to America. I loved the idea of America but I could never get the visas when they were released. OK. And then someone said do you know Australia have opened for young Irish people can go there now. Speaker 2 Yeah, and like all our convicts are here, so come, please. Speaker 3 And so that was 1988. And so I waited till my visa was nearly up and I thought, ah, I better give it a go. So I was never engaged to do it, but once I landed here and I came on my own. Speaker 2 And how old were you by now? Speaker 3 24. Speaker 2 OK. Speaker 3 So I was did. Speaker 1 You come to Melbourne Fest? Yeah, Yep. Speaker 3 Yeah, so I landed in Melbourne and there were local people that were here and umm, they put me up for a week and then I got a job in an Irish pub and perfect. Before I left, a friend of mine was just back from Australia. I was like, I'm going to Australia. He said, oh, there's this guy's name, he'll get you a job. I was like, oh that's great. And so I had a few interviews and then I rang this guy and he said, oh, why don't you come in for an interview? And I was like, oh, fine. And so it end up being Paul Wonderful and so yours. Speaker 2 Has to be who? Speaker 3 My lifelong partner, so I'd see him, yeah. Speaker 2 He interviewed you for a job. Speaker 3 Yeah, and he, he got me a job. Speaker 2 OK, does this matter? The boss? Is this what you're telling me? Speaker 3 No, no, no. He worked for an employment agency. OK. And we, we got on Yeah, we were friends. We. But. Speaker 2 Even though Australia was the poorer cousin to America, you accepted. Speaker 3 That well, you see, America is the fantasy, but the reality was Australia. Speaker 2 OK. Speaker 3 And so it, it's kind of like what it's what we want, but it's what we're meant to have can be different. So I, I did end up going to America with Paul and I went on my own, but there was something we wanted that and I was determined. Yep. And I wasn't giving up. And so then it was like, but life said no. So that's that's how I see it now, is that we can keep going for what we want and keep banging our heads against the wall and get rejected, or we can surrender and go, oh, here it is. Speaker 1 I'm meant to be here. Speaker 3 And there's an easier route. Yeah, because I think too, when life's hard and you get used to hard, you look for hard. Speaker 1 It's familiar. It's a default. I heard recently someone say swimming against the tide is just like you're feeling exhausted. You're always going against, against, and as soon as you, as soon as you surrender and turn around, you just go with the flow of the river and life becomes very smooth and you find where you meant to go and you just trust that you'll be looked after. And it's such a nice analogy to think of and the calmness that comes with that. And then if you turn around again and you're going against the tide, it's exhausting. I think so many people wait like that. Speaker 2 To be determined and don't be put off by adversity and a challenge is a good thing and sometimes we find it hard to differentiate between. Is this just challenging me now because I need to find something in myself to get through it, or am I literally banging on a closed door when I could just go to the open door? Speaker 3 And I suppose that's what discernment is, really. Yeah. But when I go back to who I was at 24, I knew hard. I mean, I know what a hard life's like. Yeah. Like I grew up in Ireland at a hard time. So my nervous system knew hard. So it didn't familiar was. Yeah, it was familiar. And so it is because, you know, if it's all going with the flow, it can be scary. Yeah. This is like, who am I now? So it's always about that growth of who am I becoming now? Like, what does life want for me now? And I, I got that at 24 and I, I've had a beautiful life here and I've, I know there's been pain, but nobody gets through life without adversity and pain. Speaker 1 And through adversity and pain comes growth. You don't experience that, and you try to rush through it or ignore it or suppress it. You miss a golden opportunity to grow. Yeah. Speaker 2 Yeah. So you met Paul who interviewed you and he gave you the job which you were very qualified for and you were the right candidate. It wasn't just because he had the hots for you, obviously. Speaker 3 So it was a bad Packer job. There was no qualifications needed. OK. I was packing boxes. OK, You know, So to be fair to him. Speaker 2 And then tell us what happens next. Well. Speaker 3 I remember that when I met him, like I felt something move on my heart. I was like, he's, he's a good person. He's a good man. Yeah. And he's caring, he's kind. We got on really well together. And I mean, we literally met and I, we've been together since. Yeah. It was easy. We're very different people, so I don't mean this. There's not difficulties, but there was no kind of will we won't we? It was just. Speaker 1 We are. Speaker 3 We are, you know, we, we got together. Speaker 2 Was your intention to just travel here and see what happens or 20%? And were you always going back to Ireland? Speaker 3 Always going back to Ireland. Speaker 2 Right. Always. Speaker 3 And yeah, I mean, I was literally on a backpacker's visa and I wanted to have freedom. I did 24. Then there's a lot of friends settling down. I was starting to go to loads of weddings. Speaker 2 Yeah. Speaker 3 And I just didn't want that. No. And yet again, how ironic that I got here and and I met the person that I was to spend my life with. Like there's a backhanded joke. And that too, because it's like, again, I surrendered and thought, I'm I'm getting, I'm getting away from this. I don't want to do this. And he's there waiting for me at the other side. Oh. Speaker 1 Beautiful. Speaker 3 Yeah. So, so a lot of this can be unconscious. We're not really aware of what we're thinking. It was, it was a learning curve because I hadn't planned on staying here. I didn't have a dream of a house. I was kind of like free or free spirit. And I'd found my yoga community here in Melbourne when I came and it just, it happened and we happened and we ended up getting married and. Speaker 2 Did you marry here or in Ireland? Speaker 3 Now we went back to Ireland. Speaker 2 So he was happy to moved to Ireland. Speaker 3 And no, we went back and got married and then came back here. Speaker 2 OK. And so how did the discussions go around? Where are we going to settle your families here, My families in Ireland? Speaker 3 We didn't really have those logic discussions. Speaker 2 We were just in love. Speaker 3 We were just in love and we were going with the flow. We're a couple that don't have that long term plan. We just go with the flow. Speaker 2 OK. Speaker 3 We're kind of like, we'll see what happens. Speaker 2 Was he open to living in Ireland if you had wanted to go back? Speaker 3 At that time we wouldn't have been able to live in Ireland. It was like it was too tough and there weren't many foreigners there. It's different now, but we hadn't planned that. Speaker 2 Right. OK. So you got married in Ireland, you came back here and did you start a family or you don't plan? Speaker 3 We don't plan, umm, we, we, when we came back, we started to save. We had nowhere to live when we came back. So we stayed with Paul's parents. And then we rented and thought, oh, we might start saving, buy a house and settle into our community. And then we thought that we might try for a baby. And I suppose for me being one of eight children and haven't had babies in my life, all my life, I mean. Speaker 1 Caring for the siblings and their cousins. Speaker 3 And also the philosophy in our end was don't get pregnant. Like before you get married, everything. Don't get pregnant. Yeah, You know what I mean? You know, the the idea of not being able to have children was never around for me. So I remember getting pregnant quite easily. We're delighted. I think my parents were here visiting at the time and just absolutely on air. I was like, my life has opened up for me, you know, I'm having this baby. I'd booked into the birthing centre because it was going to be all natural. Speaker 2 How old? How old were you by this stage? Speaker 3 28 And then I, I felt off and I was, I was up the first pregnancy, I was about 12 weeks and I just felt that something had shifted in me. I went to the doctor and booked him for a scan and so it was a missed, what they call a missed abortion, you know, where the pregnancy had stopped, but it was still in me. So then I had to go for AD and C It's. Speaker 2 Rough. Speaker 3 And you know, that that experience that that really, I think it was such a shock for me. It was like I had no, I had no skills for it. I had no concepts. I had never thought that something that could happen to me. Speaker 2 Your your frame of reference didn't include that. And if women had miscarriages in Ireland, maybe they didn't talk about it, did they? Or I? Speaker 3 Mean you like in in those years there wasn't really it wasn't wasn't out in the open. Speaker 2 No, you just got on with it. Speaker 3 And I feel, I think that's where the shame comes in now because it's like people look to the woman like, what did you do wrong? Maybe I looked to me and thought, my goodness, like, did I eat something? You know, so it's more that and the embarrassment. Umm, you know that you celebrated and told people and then it's like it's not going to work. And then also the, you know, the grieving for the dream again, like that fantasy of what I thought this was in that was going to be in that month and and the procedure was terrible. And I'm posted. They put me into a which it still hurts my heart. Like they put me into a ward with women who had just given birth. Oh. Speaker 2 Wow. Speaker 3 And I remember there was six of us in the room and I just said, can you please close the curtain? Speaker 2 That's horrendous. That just shows the lack of understanding we had. Speaker 3 You know, back then, and this in Australia, you know, in a Catholic hospital, I left within hours. I was like, oh. Speaker 1 Get Me Out of here. Get Me Out of here. Speaker 3 And I think that was that was traumatic, you know, because just the lack of understanding of how could they put me in there. And also for those poor women who had birth it like to have me in the corner with this tragedy, you know. So that was kind of something that's still like my heart for other women too, that it must have happened to the lack of care, an understanding for what that must have been. Speaker 2 Well, it's just the body, and the body was getting rid of a pregnancy that it couldn't, you know, wasn't viable or whatever. Like a lot of the language they use around it. I find it quite offensive, really. I think we're getting much better at that. Yeah, but it would have, particularly if it was Catholic hospital, probably run by nuns. Was it? Speaker 3 I don't know. I mean, it probably was, but there certainly wasn't the care. No, obviously in that moment. Speaker 2 And this is where the idea that you don't tell people till you're 12 weeks probably arose from. But my argument used to be, although I have been lucky enough not to have a miscarriage, but I always thought if I have a miscarriage, I want the support around me as well. But I totally understand what you're saying about you make this big announcement and then you have to make another announcement. That is awfully tragic. Speaker 3 And it's the joy, like you're kind of more vulnerable because you're joyous. And it's like, oh, my goodness, we did this and they didn't do it. And again, because of the woman is the carrier. Yeah, that that kind of replaying. Was it like something in me? Was I lacking something? And why would this happen? And also the innocence be just the innocence because you can never be the same again in pregnancy. Umm, so that happened. And then we had another one after that that was also a miscarriage. But that was a bit gentler because I didn't need a procedure. So. And it was earlier, so I felt like that was more private. That was just us, me and Paul. And of course, like we have mentioned him because it's his dream too. Yeah. And it's also the person he loves. Speaker 1 Going. Speaker 3 To suffer. So by the time we came to the next pregnancy, we were probably more grounded and practical around the reality of life and and that we still chose to go ahead and see if we could have another baby, you know? Speaker 1 Once again, you chose life. Speaker 3 Chose life and. And yeah, you know, like that, the courage it takes and the, the vulnerability of we'll, we'll try, you know, and. Speaker 2 The strength because you're putting yourself out there again. Speaker 3 Yeah. And also the strain on the couple, It's, it's, it's an extra layer of pressure that sometimes isn't understood. And this time for me, I felt the third time I felt much stronger in myself because I had got to know myself through what I had gone through. And it was a routine scanner, 12 weeks that they said was, they brought us into a room after the scan. I'd gone in and said, oh, come, we have a recording. You know, those times you'd bring a tape and you'd get a recording. And I remember the person doing it was, and I had, I'd moved to a different hospital and everything. And I remember she was quiet. And I thought, oh. Speaker 2 This is when there you wanted a recording of the Doppler, the heartbeat. Yeah, yeah. And could you the heartbeat? Speaker 3 Yeah, but she had, it was quiet. She had a heart, She had a heartbeat. But there was something of. And then they said it's done, but we want to bring into the room. Fine. I mean, most people know what the room is, but I still didn't kind of understand. But the pregnancy had developed. But the baby had Turner syndrome, which is a chromosome abnormality. And so it was. It was a girl, and it only happens to girls. Speaker 2 Right. Speaker 3 And so, like, it sounds strange, but that didn't shock me, but that's all right. So like, can we ever, yes, we're gonna, is it gonna like continue? And of course they don't tell you all the news in one go. And they were like, well, there's a possibility. We'd have to see how it goes. And it looks like there's a heart defect. And it's like I remember sitting there going like, just give me somebody hope. Just give me one, give me. And I'm still like that even in dark times. Just give me one glimmer of to hang on to her. And they said, come back in two weeks and we'll have another look and we'll see what's going on because we'll know by the progress. And so there and then I decided and I spoke to Paul that I didn't want to tell anyone. I didn't want to tell anyone about us. I just wanted to keep it between US and that we'd wait and see. And as it happened, it turned out her condition was it was very severe. And we knew like within another two weeks that she wasn't going to ever survive outside the womb. So basically it was just how long she'd have inside in the womb. And so I mean, that just broke her heart of. Speaker 2 Course. Speaker 3 You know, it just broke. Just broke our yeah, broke us who we were. And I remember naming her. I'm just, I'm going to name her. I'm going to make a reel for us. And that's what we did. And every day we got with her, it was like, Oh my goodness, it's the best news. Speaker 2 What was her name? Rebecca. Rebecca. Speaker 3 You know, and so in the scanning area they said, look, you don't really need to be coming back because we know what's going to happen. But they said we we'd love to have the opportunity to record for like, umm, research, you know, how long it'll go for and what it'll be like. And I was like, definitely. Speaker 2 Wow. Speaker 3 So I used to look he, I mean, I now I think, my God, what did they think I was to get so excited because I could see her. Speaker 1 Every time he went in. Speaker 3 Yeah. And so I used to kind of think like, Oh my God, I'm going. Speaker 2 I get to see Rebecca. Speaker 3 And I get to see her and I get to like, she didn't move much, you know, she was just it's. Speaker 1 A big ask, you're going through loss and grief and knowing that she probably wasn't going to be born alive. Is that when you were told? But here while you're doing that, can we just monitor you and research? I get what you're saying that you got to be with her, but did you ever think that, oh, this is this is my babies? Speaker 3 No, no, no, I didn't because the kindness of the people there, yeah, it transferred. OK. So they were very generous in their kindness. Speaker 2 And also, if you can separate it out, I guess it's a gift to the Community of Science and Development that maybe someone doesn't have to go through this, or if they are going through it, they have some knowledge to be able to brief you on it. Speaker 3 Can live with it. Speaker 2 Yeah, right. So. Speaker 3 You can live with Turner's right, but she couldn't. But there are people in the world because we did the research afterwards. Speaker 1 Wow, and her life meant something so she could actually contribute to research and helping others. Speaker 3 Yeah, and and helping the medics that were so kind to us. Speaker 2 So did they say to you how many weeks you might carry 2 or what? What were there? Or did they make recommendations? Speaker 3 Or no, because we were both strong in that. We just wanted to let her be for as long as she wanted to be. We would wait. And so that's what we did. That's amazing. And so we waited and we chose again, not to tell anybody because there was other women in the family pregnant at the time. We, I just wanted to hold her. And I think what I got from that was, and I'm still like, this is the protection, the MO, the kind of protective mother, because unfortunately a lot of people don't have language for tragedy or they, they say the wrong things. And, you know, when you're open and vulnerable, things get in easier. So I wanted to protect us and protect her just from ignorance and judgment. Yeah. And people who didn't know what to say so either didn't say anything, which is making it a non advent, which is painful, and then saying something that could really be inappropriate because that happened to, you know, afterwards. And it's human nature. So. But it's the vulnerability of the person. And I wanted to protect myself. Yeah. I mean, it's beautiful. Speaker 2 You. You'd made it about the three of you. Speaker 3 Yeah, we were strong. Speaker 2 You were a unit. Speaker 3 You know, we were a strong unit. And then we went in one day and there was no heartbeat. So that was I'm. Speaker 2 So sorry. Speaker 3 And then that's another part of the journey thing. You've got to make decisions about how and when and where. And there again, like our strength was just to the fore. And I I knew what I wanted and luckily the medical staff were amazing and I gave birth to her on Sunrise. Speaker 1 Beautiful. Speaker 3 And. Speaker 1 You got to hold her. Speaker 3 And got to hold her and spend time with her and then my sister the only person that came in was my sister and held her I. So when I found out that we were, I was going to give birth, I instantly went into a baby shop and I was looking for dresses. And I told the woman I said, I've got a, you know, stillborn baby. So I just need the smallest dress I have. Wow. And like, I was just so brave. So I went into the hospital with this tiny little dress. But what came out of me was a tiny, tiny little creature. Beautiful being. And so we've kept the dress. So we have the dress. Speaker 2 That's a gorgeous symbol. Speaker 3 So it's kind of again, the symbol of what I thought would be and what arrived and how you manage life. And this is what we're doing. The reality is against the fantasy. And I just again, made clear directions that there was no more testing. There was no, no autopsy. And she was going to be left intact. Yeah. And we ended up putting her coffin in the back of our car and bringing her to her own cremation. And we got her cremated. So I think when I look back now, I think, my goodness for a young couple. Speaker 2 Yes. Speaker 3 To go through that. But I think that's our strength, you know? Then I, I knew after that that, umm, I needed to go home to Ireland. Yeah, right. So I brought her in my luggage, my hand luggage. I felt like I needed to bring her back to Ireland. Her ashes. Yeah. And so in between that, I had to have another procedure because I had complications after the birth. And that was the day. That was the day. Like when I speak about Rebecca and when I think of her, she's still very alive. And me, like I, you know, she's alive. Our children grew up with her because we kept her ashes. And they were always in our bed. Speaker 2 So in your bed? Yeah. What do you mean in your bed? Speaker 3 Down the end of the bed and our children got used to that. There's Rebecca. There's Rebecca. OK, so she's a very live part of our unit. Speaker 1 Yeah, I get that. Speaker 3 The day, if I was to reference the day was when I got sick again and they the doctor said you have to come and we'll have to do a procedure on you. Speaker 2 This is before you went back to Ireland. Speaker 3 And I said I'll, I'll do that, but please don't put me into the like the last time. But he said, he said, umm, look, we ain't got any more beds. We haven't got any more beds, but I could put you into pallet of care. You know what I said? I said that's that's OK. Speaker 2 That's better than listening to the babies crying. Speaker 3 So I was with the real women at the end of their life and I was, I was there and he came in to see me and that was the day. And he started talking about pregnancies. And I said, I've had enough. Yeah. I said I, I can't take anymore, I need time. You know, that was my defining moment of surrender of I've done enough. I've, I've had enough pain. And he was very respectful of that. And umm, I took work off and took time and grieved. And you know, the grief we feel is often not reflective of what's happened. Like grief is, is it's not like a maths equation. And I think again, misunderstanding of grief that we can grieve for, for situations like there's not just grief for one thing. Grief can be for many, many things. And the grief I experienced was profound. I mean, I remember the darkness and the loneliness and the sadness and the aloneness of, of my life without children and without her, you know, And I think she, you know, was so determined because they'd be like, gosh. Speaker 1 Like your mother? Yeah. Speaker 3 I was like, yeah, she's determined. Yeah. And then I went on to have three more determined daughters. Yeah, that's wonderful. So that was when I went to Ireland. My family were so kind to me. Speaker 2 Yeah, that's what you needed. Speaker 3 You know and and caring and not even understanding when cremation wouldn't have been in Ireland. Speaker 1 By that not an acceptable. Speaker 3 Kind, you know, but they were just so loving and caring and accepting and, and I'll never forget them for that. The good news was before I went back to Australia, I got sick and the doctor told me I was pregnant. Speaker 2 Oh, so it was Paul with you in Ireland. So you just came back by yourself with Rebecca? I was. Speaker 3 Back for two months. Speaker 2 Oh, OK. And that would have been hard for him to. Speaker 3 To be 100%, yeah, yeah, it was a very lonely time for us. Yeah. It was a very, very tricky time for us as a couple, you know, But yeah. So I ended up not getting back on the flight. I stayed in Ireland and he came from Australia to Ireland. Speaker 1 Was that intentional? You thought I'm going to have this baby here? Or what was the thinking? Speaker 3 I didn't want to risk a flight. Yep. And so I literally walked out of my house and my job and never went back to either of them. And he packed up the house and we rented out our home. We'd bought a home by then and we rented it. And he came and we lived in my sister's spare bedroom. And our first daughter was born in Ireland. Speaker 2 Congratulations. And what was her? What is her name? Speaker 3 Stephanie. Speaker 1 Stephanie And then you stayed there for 17 years? Yep. And you had two more. Speaker 3 Two more. Two more girls, Holly and Courtney. Speaker 2 Beautiful. I did ask Carolyn why didn't you give them Irish names? But Paul was quite strong on that, wasn't he? Speaker 3 Well, there was more protecting them from people not understanding their name and not being able to pronounce it. I suppose at that time that was that was a small thing. You know, we'd been through so much as a couple and we also had to restart a life there and rebuild a life together. Speaker 2 And that pregnancy must have been full of anxiety for you. Was it? Or had you just accepted whatever happens, happens? Speaker 3 Well, I had huge complications, so I didn't really have a restful pregnancy. It was a very complicated pregnancy, but we did get her in the end. That's beautiful. So that is definitely the the, the light after the dark. But sometimes we just have to make a boundary of I don't know if I can keep doing this, of course, and surrender. And then sometimes it works out like it did for us. Yeah. But the ironic thinking is coming from Ireland and then having so many brothers and sisters and to like, we have different learning curves and different times in our lives. And even though I talked to my daughters about this, that, that experience changed me forever. Uh, it's made me a really great mother. So much empathy, compassion, unconditional love. But also it's, it's helped me to understand like pain in a way I couldn't have and heartbreak. Yeah. And it, it helps me to not sweat the small stuff and not to put up a bullshit. Yeah. Other people can suffer their own losses that I might not recognize as a big loss, but it's a big loss to them. Yeah. You know, that understanding of having to leave your own idea of what's a big thing and respect other people's right to have their lives and have their challenges, which look different to my challenges, Yeah. Speaker 1 It's so important that compassion for others and no one knows what it's like to live in someone else's shoes or to go through something. Speaker 2 See part of people's story, don't we? Yeah, this podcast is a really good example. Like our episodes have come out, Jack and mine, and I've known people for nearly all my life that might not know my story. So that's the first time they might be hearing it. And I'm sure there's many people who don't know this part of your story. So that's why compassion is important, because we just, we see the tip of the iceberg, don't we? Speaker 3 Yeah. And that everyone's got a lived life, whether they're able to identify some challenge and also some growth and some joy. And. And yeah, when I step out and have a broader view of life, I'm able to understand more but myself and other people, because when we get too involved in the middle of it, we can get lost and confused about what's going on. Yeah, but it's to step out and see it. Speaker 2 Did you accept after Rebecca we might not have children that children are not? Speaker 3 100%. Speaker 1 Yeah. So the moment you kind of gave up that. Speaker 3 And the fight, you know that fighting me, that determined fight, that guy. I want what I want and I'm gonna and and and it was just. Speaker 2 What is the difference between giving up and surrendering? Speaker 3 I think surrender was like, if I give up, it's like I'll stop it. That's my idea of giving up. It's like, it's kind of like a backhanded disappointment or anger. It's like I'll stop you. Yeah. So if when I surrender, there's a lot more grace and acceptance and knowing as a as a woman, this is what I thought my path would be. And it's not. And some people are really good at surrender. They're like, Oh my goodness, this is where I'm meant to go. And I'm like, I'm going to fight every bit of the way. Speaker 2 Yeah, that's me. I'm with you. Do you know why I get feel it? That's why I get fortnightly remedial massage, because it's all in my muscles. Your rage. Speaker 3 So the challenge, I suppose if I go back to the 18 year old, the strength that brought me through that can be a challenge if I'm too involved in what I want, if I get lost in what I in the eye. Speaker 1 The attachment, yeah, yeah. It's like the Buddhists talk about attachment. And that's where pain is because you can't release yourself from it. But the moment you detach, you can't hurt yourself anymore. It is what it is. And I'll, I'll get through this. Speaker 3 And it can still be painful and challenging and disruptive and all those things, but there's just a layer of pain that's removed from it. I think that's what the how I would see it. And I mean, there again, we don't really have a lot of skills and people showing us how to surrender because we live in a world that says get up and do it, especially in personal development. Like, you can do it. Yeah, you can keep forcing. And it's like sometimes you just got to sit it out. Yeah, take a break and see what's really going on and take a broader view. Speaker 1 So true, yeah. Speaker 2 Very wise advice. Speaker 1 It's the best advice, actually, coming from someone who has been a striver and a goer and a hustler. And the moment you do stop, the wisdom kind of it just settles and you can connect with yourself and realize what you need that you can't see when you're like, fighting against everything, you're just too caught up in the moment and just being quiet. And so, yeah, it's hard to do, extremely difficult. Speaker 3 And it's a practice is to remember I'm, I'm struggling. So I've got to step back and see what's the bigger picture here. Speaker 2 Right, so Jackie yelling surrender at me is not usually the process. Speaker 1 I think I yelled surrender. Speaker 2 I just surrender, Kylie. I don't. Speaker 1 Yell at you, I was yelling. Speaker 3 But that's like saying like, just let's stop when I'm on the side of the boards, like not wanting to jump into the pool. Yeah, just let go and I'm swearing. Yeah. That's not it's not an option. That's a good vision in that moment. Do you know what I mean? In the in that moment, it's not an option. Yeah, you have to step back. You have to step back and go, Oh my goodness, I'm struggling. Got. Speaker 2 To stand on the diving board and have a look down, yeah. Speaker 3 Yeah. And know whether you want to actually do that or whether you want to walk back down and go down the steps. Speaker 2 Yeah. Speaker 3 Your choice. Speaker 2 So the light that you saw from the accident, I know you say you carry it with you, but with Rebecca and then all the other hardships you've had, does that come into play, do you think? I, I chose to be here and here's another challenge for me and I'm choosing, is it that conscious or is it just something that sits within your subconscious that you carry? Speaker 3 It's a conscious. It's it's like, it's how I live. Speaker 1 Right. Is it like a flame in you? Like an internal light that just keeps. Speaker 3 And also that idea of choosing life. So life presents something and then to choose the the path that's from a broader perspective. Speaker 2 Yeah. Speaker 3 But that light is, is that that experience is still in me. And I mean, what they would say is that with youth, you have a lot more strength to choose to come back. But when we get older, to really work on keeping our lights and keeping our strength and our vitality so that we live longer and don't get old because living, living longer is different to aging, you know? And I think that's why I continue living, making the choices I make is so that I can remain light, light hearted, like minded and aligned with what I would call now the intelligence of life, the bigger picture of life. Speaker 2 You've already imparted so much wisdom, but if somebody's listening who's in that dark phase right now, how would you help them through? Speaker 3 I would acknowledge it. I would say to him, for them to acknowledge this is tough. This is a tough time, it's a tough day, this is a tough decision and to get real about it and authentic with yourself and honour the toughness of this situation and the challenge. And also just remember it will pass. And then to step away from the intensity and just ask for guidance or be curious or see what's my part in it? How can I bring more ease to myself in the challenge? So it's not about changing the challenge because the challenge is there. Yeah. But what could I do or what could I not do that's going to ease the pain of it and help me to relax into it and know that it will pass and there will be, like, calm. And sometimes we just got to stay in the dark and trust that it's going to shift. Yeah. Speaker 1 And it's so hard to stay in the dark, so hard, so easy to run away and do the opposite. Speaker 3 And the it's to me, it's part of life to have adversity and challenge in dark times. And it's not because you're bad or you've done anything wrong. It's actually part of being human and and learning as a human being. And to watch that self judgment and that critic and watch it for other people too, that you're not facing it on them. Turn out they must just like stop, stop judging. Like let people alone. Speaker 2 Except if they cut me off in traffic, then I'm judging them. Speaker 3 Really. Speaker 2 Oh yeah, I want like a loudspeaker on my car. I told my daughter that would be a funny TikTok. She didn't think the same. Do you? Speaker 1 Think you're a frustrated police officer? Speaker 2 God, no, no, it's not about that. It's about abusing people. You know how I was talking before about let's have compassion? Maybe they've had a bad day and got bad news and they cut me off, but I don't think that. Speaker 1 In the way they're in their darkness. Speaker 2 Maybe, and maybe I'll try to think that when I drive home today, maybe it's best I don't get a loudspeaker. Speaker 3 And maybe you just say a little affirmation before you turn the key or press the button that please keep them all, keep them away from me. Please just make the path clear for me. I like it so I can be kind to myself and kind to others. Yeah, just move them away from me. Thank you. Yeah. You know, while you're learning, while I'm learning, while you're learning at. Speaker 2 51 years old. You're young, Yeah. Speaker 3 Yeah, you're you're, you're young and you're learning. Speaker 2 OK, still learning. I like it. Speaker 1 What advice do you have for women who do sit in judgement of others every day? Oh, she's got 4 kids or works full time, or she stays at home. You know the choices we make. People are projecting their judgment on us all the time. Speaker 3 People are projecting, we project onto each other. But but the question I would ask myself if I was judging somebody is but why am I doing this? But it's getting. Speaker 2 Me off in traffic. Speaker 3 But what am I getting from this? Like what what, what charge are you getting? So if you were to look at the traffic, what charge are you getting? Speaker 2 Getting angry and sore neck muscles to be honest. Speaker 3 So you're, it's an opportunity because you're connecting to your anger that's in their residue. And you know, you might want to channel that another way, as enthusiasm as like compassion. Speaker 1 Put some 80s music on and start singing Cyndi Lauper or Gloria. Yep. Speaker 3 If if women are interested in learning and wanting to expand and change and become more authentic, like ask yourself why am I judging this person so harshly? What's the harshness about? Why does it matter to me that she's got 4 kids or she's doing that? What's what's happening in me? What's the deficit in me? Because we're hooked in when we judge, you know, and it's quite addictive then to get that charge and the charges, the addiction and the kind of familiar, when you think of those of us who've had hard upbringings, like it's, it's easy to get stuck in that familiar pattern and. Speaker 1 So how do you stop? Speaker 3 Well, awareness is the first thing and then the willingness not to do it. And pull yourself up and click your fingers and say stop. Let those, let them alone. Speaker 2 Also, the people you surround yourself with is important I think. Speaker 1 Yes. Speaker 2 Because sometimes you do, it's, you have these patterns or relationships with people where that's the way you connect. Like you get together, you have a laugh about whatever. And if there's judgement in that, it's, it's what you know about each other and that's the basis of your connection. So maybe as I get older, I'm starting to look a little bit more intentionally about where I spend my energy and who I spend it with. And yeah, if that's a pathway you're on to more self-awareness or whatever, I think that who you associate with is telling. Speaker 1 Wasn't that your word of the year? Speaker 2 Intention and yours was discernment, and you've used discernment today. Speaker 1 So is there any other piece of wonderful wisdom that you would like to pass on to our listeners about life? Speaker 3 If somebody in your life is going through a rough time, whether you understand it or you don't understand it or there's a reason or there's not a reason, it's really important to acknowledge it. Yeah, acknowledge their suffering or their challenge. It mightn't be what you would how you would respond, but acknowledge them because the there's the pain of of the struggle and then there's the pain. The added pain is that people avoid speaking about it like, but I don't want to bring it up because if I bring it up, it makes it worse. Sorry, I don't want to upset you. And so it comes from a kind place maybe, but it's kind of diminishing the experience of somebody. And it's like just acknowledging you've seen this, I've noticed that, and it makes room for them to be validated rather than invalidated. And let's stay positive that invalidation, we won't talk about that, you know? So I think that's what I've learned is to find the courage to just to just acknowledge something just quietly and it kind of validates the experience for the person. Speaker 2 Yeah, and I really just reflecting back on what you were talking about, I'd love the idea that your concept of that day when we spoke to you about this, which of course we would naturally think is the day you lost Rebecca. But actually you said it was the day you learned to surrender. And I think that's incredible wisdom because you see Rebecca as a gift, even though it was so sad. That day was a turning point in your life, which is really what we're trying to get out here. And that's what you chose as that day, which I'm really impressed by that. So congratulations on your enlightenment. Speaker 3 Thank you, Carly. Speaker 1 Well, that was magnificent. Thank you so much. It was beautiful. Speaker 2 You've been amazing. And when I was driving here, you know what song came on my playlist? All that you have is Your soul by Tracy Chapman. And I feel like beautiful. That should be the theme of this, right? All that you have is your soul. You were telling us before that you wanted to tell us the story from your belly. You had to connect the soul, not just from the head and the heart, but your whole being. And you did that. Thank you very much and in memory of Rebecca. Speaker 3 Yeah, Thank you. Thank you. Thank you girl. Speaker 2 Thanks for listening to That Day with Kylie and Jack. If this story stirred something in you, if you've had that day, we'd love to hear from you. Find us on Instagram at That Day Podcast or get in touch via e-mail [email protected]. Your story matters. We're listening. Speaker 1 We record that day in Nam on the lands of the Warandry Boyarung people with the cooler nation. We pay our respects to elders past, present and honour their enduring tradition of storytelling.