The Dating Experiment Designed to Change Your Life feat. Amy Chan

Most people are only one to two shifts away from being able to create a healthy relationship. Okay, I know that sounds wild. Really hopeful. This podcast is a dear media production. Hi guys. Welcome back to another episode of Girls Gotta Eat. Welcome back. Who whipped your head up? I'm flying so quick here. What was I looking at? Like, that's what we're doing now. What? We're recording our episode. I was just over doing that. I'm getting settled in. Can't be whipping your head around too much at this age. Oh yeah, this morning I had a cramp in my ankle and I was like, I can't. It's over. I'm gonna go down. I'm gonna cancel my Denver shows. Literally just sitting the wrong way for five minutes. My leg is broken. I forgot deodorant today. You did. I just like never do. I just feel like musty. Sometimes I think I'm better than that and then I'm like, oh, I'm not. I know. I need deodorant. And I have a travel deodorant and like a deodorant that I keep in my bathroom. So it's like I've never like, oh, it's in my suitcase and it's always in my face. It's my point. It's always on the counter. Okay. Do you have, I have two sets of everything. I have just like a travel bag of just like toiletries. Okay. I have two sets of everything. I have just two sets of some things. But there's points where I'm like, Ashley, you can afford it. Like just buy literally the same thing. Buy the hair oil. Buy the face moisturizer. What am I doing sometimes? But two toothbrushes, two toothpaste, two flosses, two deodorants. Like there's some stuff that always stays in the travel bag. And then other times I'm like, why am I moving this back and forth? It's just, it is the height of luxury for me. Every time I replace something, I replace the big size and the travel size. It's like, that's how I feel like I know that I've made it. Like I don't have to steal toilet paper from my parents house anymore. And I have two sets of everything. You and I just traveled too much. I can't be like unpacking a toiletry bag every day. No, it just, it saves you time. Time is money. Packing is my least. You have, I have a fucking meltdown every time I pack. I feel like I'm getting worse. A packing? I'm getting better. I am always on point with what I pack. It's taking me longer. What do you think attributes to that? I don't know. Be more neurotic. I am getting more neurotic as I age. Really? Don't. I'm neurotic. No, I thought you hit the top and you were just there. I'm kidding. Stop. I thought we were just at the top. I actually think you can become much more chilled out in the last 10 years. I think that you have just a mellowed out. But I still fixate on stuff. Oh, you hyper fixate. Yeah, hyper fixate. And so packing like, I don't know. It just, it, I used to be a little quicker. I will say, I don't, I genuinely mean this from the bottom of my heart. I don't know how people, this is such a single person thing to say. I don't know how people pack with somebody else in the house. You and I in Shashank went out to dinner the other night and you were like, I haven't packed yet. And you guys sent me this photo because you're leaving the morning. And your bed was covered in stuff. And like, it sent you chilled on my spine. I don't know how people pack with a, like, when I see somebody in my house, I think play time. I think drinking time. I think let's be silly. Maybe let's take a nap. Let's have sex. Like, I don't think, let me buckle down and try on thought. I don't know how you do it. I had to do all the unfun stuff with him. He's there. I don't know. I just, I, I, you are so much stronger than me. Like, Brittany wanted it. So Brittany, this will have been, we go at this point, but Brittany is coming to Denver. Phoenix for me for my shows. And she was like, Friday morning after Phoenix, I think I'm going to fly to LA to get some stuff done. Can I stay at your place? And I was like, I have to pack on Saturday. You can't stay. You can't be around for this. I'm not interested in housecast because I, I, I, I, I come back for two days and you and I leave for another five days and I come back for a couple days and I leave for like eight days after that. Oh, yeah. No, it's, I'm not open to housecast. Okay. A couple things here. We will put that pick up on the screen. You guys can watch on YouTube or Spotify. It was also a lot of laundry. So this is really where I get myself into a pickle is where I'm like, have done a bunch of laundry before a trip. And then I have to bring all the, all the clean clothes are there and then I'm like, do I actually have time to put all this stuff away and pack? And it is mayhem. Yes. But I guess I'll give you a little insight in our relationship. So she's not a guest. Do you want to tell me something? Well, last year, I mean, Shashank moved in and then a few months later I started touring. I'm packing all the time and he will usually lay in the bed and he'll be scrolling or on his computer doing stuff while I am packing. So we're like spending time together. I mean, there were times where I was coming home leaving right again. So he helps me pick out stuff. I really rely on him. I do a value his opinion for sure, but also just like just having something to run stuff by. Like do you like the way this looks? Like all I have is my Instagram audience. Yeah. Exactly. So he is a real value ad when I'm packing for stuff. And I really do value his opinion. And it's also just nice to have somebody there to work stuff out to an audience. I totally agree. I do want somebody to be like this looks like this doesn't one time Brittany and her boyfriend were going to stay over overnight that one day and else you can't be here. You can't be here while I'm packing. I just when I'm packing for like seven days like so much goes into it. I'm having a melt and I have gotten a lot better. I mean, I have spent like four hours packing. Raina, it's taking hours. Yeah, take hours. To pack, I did that 11 day trip in the first weekend. I was with my family and then it was New York and I'm just like, what events do I have? What media stuff do I have? What stuff can I rewear? What stuff am I going to wash in Delaware and workouts and shoes and jackets? But I got three jackets. I just, and do you ever do this? I thought I was going to bring my smaller checked bag. No, it's not small. It's still a big checked bag. And then everything's going in. There's still so much stuff on the bed. You're like, I was sorely mistaken. You have to go get the giant suitcase. This happens to me every trip. I hate bringing that giant suitcase. It's 55 pounds and it's really difficult to maneuver. Yeah, sometimes you've a man with you to help you. I guess I'm on the road. I've a man with me. But I got to do that by myself. It's so hard. I can kind of thank our partners. Actually, this comes in a great time. I would love to thank Revolve because that is the only thing I pack. Sometimes when I go to New York, I'm like, I won't even pack anything. I'll just send Revolve. Send Revolve 100%. So thanks to Revolve. Get 15% off your first order at Revolve.com/GGE with Code GG. Thank you to OrraFrames. Get 25% off the best-selling car format frame at OrraFrames.com with Code GG. Yes, when we talk later about Revolve, I want to circle back to just their incredible customer service. Nothing's bad. Incredible there. Yeah, so I'm curious if you guys like to pack a loan or if you'd like to have an audience. It's hours. And I just used to be so much more willy-nilly. Do you remember traveling in your 20s, get home drunk and pack? So I use packing cubes, which you buy in Amazon for like $20. They're all labeled. Like pants, shirts, like pajamas, whatever. I just covered packing cubes a couple years ago. And the other day I was going to New York and I was like, I don't have time for packing cubes. I just rubbed everything in the bag. How the fuck did I use to do that? Everything is just in the suitcase. Okay. You pull out one thing, everything's everywhere. So this is a major difference between Reyna and I. You're these packing cubes? I don't use packing cubes, but that's not what I'm talking about. I unpack in full when I get to the hotel. And we stay at the standard. It's a tiny closet. I have figured it out. Like I know where the shoes go, where every shelf, what hangs. There's not that many hangers. Like games of the closet. The second I get to the hotel, my rule is usually more than three nights. I'm unpacking in full. Okay. Three nights in a little space maybe. I might live out my suitcase for three nights. But four plus nights, I fully unpack. I move in. I have two questions you more right now. She's friend. Crazy because I'm so type A in my house. It looks like no one lives there. I had a real trick on photograph and he's like, this house looks staged. Like no one lives here. I was like, that's on purpose. That's by design. The way my hotel room looks, if I am there for 15 minutes, I've never unpacked a day in my life. You're lucky if I hang a coat up. It looks like a fucking bomb. Why not? You explode all over. I don't know how I do it, but it's like stuff is everywhere. It's not dirty. There's not like dishes and makeup everywhere. But short of that, there is stuff. Wall to wall hanging from the ceiling. It's really stresses me out. You guys, every time I have to walk in a rainous room, I have to get myself a pep talk. It's going to be bad in there. It's going to be triggering. It's going to look like a teenager's bedroom while they're going through a meltdown. One time I posted a photo of my selfie and one of our girlfriends was like, whoa, your hotel room. And I was like, that's clean. I think sometimes if I brought a guy back here, what they would think. I think a lot of people do this. I think a lot of people check into a hotel room and fucking explode all over it. I can't do it. I keep it tight. Keep it right. I just unpack. I like to keep it tidy because I don't like to think about what it's going to take to gather all that stuff together and put it back in the suitcase. But I just like to really, weirdly like to live like I live at home in that hotel room and you don't. You're really, you're treating yourself. I fly by the sea in my pants and that. It's crazy. So unlike me, but I can't have my follow question. When you get back from a trip, when do you unpack? Immediately or three weeks later. But a lot of the time is which one? Three weeks is exaggeration. But it's immediately or could be up to five days. Okay. What's the decider? I don't know. Whether I had the strength. So my suitcase is sitting there now. We got back on Sunday. It's a Tuesday. I'll probably do it tomorrow. Okay. Probably two, three day is my average. Toiletries? Like you take those out of the suitcase? I think I can take out the suitcase on the floor upstairs or downstairs in my bedroom. - You're a pretty big bedroom. - Or you're a second bedroom. Like in your joint bedroom where you guys share. In front of the fireplace. I have the room, that's my side of the room. No, are we the big bedroom? When my West Hollywood house, I could not, my bedroom was so tiny, the suitcase didn't fit in the room with me. I had to pack like in the dining room. So I would come home and I would do it immediately, but I've always been this like, I do it immediately or it doesn't get done. And it's gonna get done when it gets done. And sometimes the worst is when you have another trip and you have an unpacked from the trip. Like and you are like, I have suitcase on the floor and I only got another suitcase on the floor. - This has never happened to me. - Okay, yeah, what are you? - No matter the time of day, it can be 11 o'clock at night, maybe after 10 p.m., I don't. But I walk in the door and I unpack and I have to, really, my suitcase is different with this stuff. - I don't know, we do laundry really differently also, which we will circle back to, but like my suitcase is huge, it's 55 pounds and I have to open it up downstairs, take out each pack and cube, carry them up and shift. - Oh right. - You don't care the suitcase upstairs. - No, but like I carry it up and shift, which is even crazier at like 10 p.m. - Yes. - Not at the hour of the day, I unpack, I put the stuff in the laundry. If I don't do it, the minute I get home, I'm up at like six in the morning the next day and like I like the ritual of it. I like it, it's early in the morning, I put everything away, I do the laundry, I put everything back where it's supposed to be, put the suitcases back, like it weighs on me, I can feel the suitcase in my house. - I hate it, I hate that it's sitting there right now. But sometimes it just sits there for a couple days, I just don't feel like dealing with it. - It's not an emergency, I don't really need the stuff. - But I trip over it. Why am I doing this? I stubbed my toe before. - I don't know, our friend Sally, she was like, I, as a rule, don't unpack for a week and she's the most type A person that I've ever met. - I just like all these differences, like the fact that like I get into a hotel room and immediately unpack and settle in and my suitcase will be in my home for days on the floor. - I mean, the way you do laundry also is so different, I mean, I just learned about separating whites and colors. The way I hang stuff to dry, I just throw it over a railing wherever. Sometimes I hang it on a door top. - I think I think I'm stuck to dry. - That's an improvement. - After I shrunk a 300-hour pair of jeans twice. And I had to buy it a third time. I mean, I'm exaggerating, it's $258. I was like, never again. - Yeah. - Okay, that's was the-- - The ragging on the sweatpants. - The sweatpants jeans, yeah. They drink like crazy. - Okay, well let us know. I don't even know what this says about us. Like some stuff of this type A, some stuff is type B. You know what I'm loving is the TikTok trends of like my type B friend doing something? So two that I've seen that sent a chill on my spine were my type B friend painting her room. And it's crazy. She hasn't covered anything. She's just climbing on top of the dresser, like painting. She's like just pouring the paint. - Just taking off that's been me before. - And then doing her own nails on her wedding day. - Actually a chill on my spine. - Oh my God. I can't imagine. Like I felt really rushed and there were certain things I could have gotten ahead of on my wedding day. And it was a regret of mine. And there was some things. I was like, I just should have thought about that before. But the nails to be painting your nails, oh my God. And then like what if they smudge or they're not fully dry? Like I haven't painted my nails in so many years. I get gel manicures. But like wedding day, you're painting your nails. Oh my God. I think you did your wedding day right. You were like, I'm gonna enjoy this day. I can't, I need everything else to be taken care of. Okay, the last thing I will tell you about I'm packing in a hotel room is, I don't even know if you know this about me. I don't have the maid service come in if my room looks like that. So I'm not gonna set up a bunch of obstacles up around the room and make the room gross and be like, you clean it up. Like I will keep the do not disturb sign on. - Oh. - And you like somebody to come in every single day. - Every single day, that's why I don't care. - I don't care. - It is my best life that I leave the hotel in the morning and I go work and like clockwork, the bed is made. They don't do a lot. Like the room's pretty clean. They make the bed, they might replace some towels and take the trash, if there's any trash. And like that's it. I think I'm a pretty quick turn on the housekeeping. But that is one of the reasons I'm in the hotel. It's for the housekeeping. - The first thing I do every morning is make my bed. It's, I mean, immediately, you know how tall, tall tired I am, I'm instantly make my bed a hotel. It'll never be made. I didn't use to care and now I really care. And like really nice places that do turn down service. I'm like, why are you in here? - Oh my God, to come back after a full day and the bed's been made again. (laughing) - I'll go three days without me in service. - Me too! - And I know where you're paying. Day four you gotta get that you run a towel. - Well, again, to your point, like with your pain of premium to stay anywhere in New York, for example. Okay, I'm gonna tell you one, find it. Well, this isn't like about travel, but this was the impetus for me doing this. I am so excited to announce this. I put a privacy screen on my phone. And I can't believe I've lived 40 years rolling around just letting anybody look at my phone. - It's crazy. - It's so crazy. I, and what, so this guy that I've been traveling with for my tour, he is a privacy screener of this phone and we see each other at the airport a lot. I know, and I'm like, I wanna see what's on that phone. I just, I love seeing what's on everybody's phone, but I've been like, maybe I should get one. Like, that is pretty dope. I'm sitting next to a person. I can't see what's on their phone. What a nightmare. - Yeah. (laughing) - What a nightmare for me. But then I was on the plane the other day. Landing a JFK, I was so hungry, so I'm like perusing grub hub to see what I should order. And I'm looking at the menu for pure Vita. And I, this woman next to me goes, "Are you gonna order some food for when you land?" And I was like, "Oh my God." - Look at this. - It's so weird. - It's in your business. - Let you do this. And I was like, "I, I let you do this." I know. - I know. - I know you have access to my phone. - Still out of pocket. - It was a crazy thing to say, but it was a crazy thing. - It was a crazy thing. - But yeah. - Really have my text over my shoulder in private, like a normal person, but I would just, the run is over. - Yep. - No one's gonna look at my phone. And I thought that it would make the screen dark. It doesn't. But if you turn the phone, even in an 80 degree angle, you cannot see it. And what, what are people doing rolling around that people look at their phones? - I am very mindful, like, and I will turn the brightness all the way down. And I really am not just rolling around, like texting all willy-nilly looking at my phone. Like, it's on my mind, but it doesn't matter. Like, someone can still really see. It's crazy when someone's like, for an example, in the seat and front of you on an airplane, and you can just read their text. - You know, I have lots of people on plates. - Yeah, if you know the lore, this was what, two years ago, and this guy sat next to me, texting with his, it appeared to be X, head down for two and a half hours. - And Ashley and I were ribbing. - And I only got like a few pieces, and she was with somebody else. Like, we shared this whole story, and like, as much of it as we could. He was so hot, it was crazy. - I never went to the bathroom, you cried. - Oh yeah, I went to the bathroom, and he came back all glassy-eyed. - But I can't really just roll around like this. - Yeah, I just suggested other people. Well, honestly, I suggest no one else do this, 'cause I would like to look at your phone. - Exactly. - I know why are you even promoting this? It cost me $7. - Yeah, I'm just like, I feel like I'm a different version of me. I'm just like, you can't see this. - Yeah. - Okay, so we have Amy Chan today. Such a wonderful episode for you guys about dating. We've done breakup stuff with her before. We can't wait to get into it. But I do just wanna take a moment to share that my special is coming out this week, Thursday. It will premiere on YouTube at 8 p.m. Eastern, and it's gonna be an interactive experience. So I will be live in the chat, as long as you guys are nice to me. And I'll be in the chat if you guys aren't nice to her. - She's talking about you fucking fight fight fight fight. - No, you guys are the best. So I'm just so excited. I've talked about this. I don't need to talk about it too too much, but I just really am excited for this premiere and to finally put it out into the world and have you guys see it. And then it will be on Prime Video May 1st, if you wanna watch it that way in the US only. But I really want you guys to watch it when it premieres and it's gonna be really fun and really exciting. And I have to tell you, I got this DM and I'll try to read it without crying. - I'm gonna talk about it. - I know. - I'm gonna talk about it, I'm gonna cry. And she said, "Hi Ashley, I live with the Delaware beaches, "Shadow of the Delaware," and there's a big group of girls here who would love to organize some sort of event where we could watch your special on the 30th. And I feel like it obviously needs to be at the starboard. I don't know if this is something you could help us organize, but I think it would be super fun to promote it there. Like I just, I guess I hadn't really considered that. Like you mentioned a couple weeks ago in the snack, but like I hadn't considered people like making it in an event like this and getting together to watch it. And it just like brought tears to my eyes. And if there's something official that happens at the starboard, I'll let you guys know or I will have already let you know. But I'm gonna look into it for them. I'm like, "I wanna be there." - I just, I think about all the messages that we get constantly. I'm a day one listener. I've been listening to 2018, 2019. And you guys have been together three years now. And like I think about all the people that have been on the ride every single week from like the day one of your love story from like meeting him and coming to your birthday and coming to you. I still remember like the episode you're like, I don't know what to call him. And I was like, that's your boyfriend. And then like you getting engaged and you moving in together and like all these special moments that like our audience has been along the ride for. And I hope you guys have watched parties. I hope you see me. I hope you guys wear your old wedding dresses and your bridesmaid dresses and see me and make food. And just like invite your friends over and have a special night. And I think the world just needs like comedy and laughter and excitement and happiness so much. And it's so funny. It's so personal. It's so special. The way that you shot it is so beautiful. And I'm a part of it. There's some special parts and there's some footage in it. I'm really excited for people to see. And it's just, it's really amazing. So I hope you guys like make a big deal out of it. And I hope you guys like Instagram story and tag us and do a whole thing. And it's just, I remember when you and I during COVID we're doing these virtual shows and people that have watched parties. And that's right. - First Shashank, first saw you. - First saw Christine. - Yeah, he first saw me at the 2020 holiday show. - Thank you, I love you. Thanks for saying that. - I'm so excited about it. - I didn't even say it's called, here comes the bride. So yes, and it is like a wedding theme, and you guys will see, and like Raina said, that would be so special if you guys wanted to theme parties and watch parties. And we are only successful because of you guys. (laughing) Like our very aware, like we're the best audience in the world, we appreciate your support so much. Like we only get to do this because of you guys. Like I only get to do the special cause of you guys. I only got to tour cause of you guys, Raina only gets to tour because of you guys, we only get to do the show and have two episodes a week. And we're just so lucky. And I really appreciate the support and I appreciate it in advance. And anything you guys wanna do, I'm so honored and humbled. If you wanna share it and you wanna get those comments early and it will be successful because of you guys, it will only be successful because of this audience. Like the way they respond to it early on and whether that takes off or not in certain types of ways, like a lot of this I've done on my own and it has been challenging and I feel really accomplished and I just wanna, again, like I've said, get it out to as many people as possible but just our audience is, you're the most important. And so thank you and I can't wait for you guys to see it. And we're just, we're so grateful for your support. So here comes the bride, April 30th, 8pm on YouTube. My YouTube is youtube.com/ashleyhustletine. I hope you guys have already subscribed and signed up for the countdown. And then again, you can, it will be on prime if you wanna watch it that way as well on May 1st and share it and watch it with friends. And I posted the trailer at this point and that's on my Instagram at Ash Hasse. And I just, I love you guys and thank you. - Thank you guys, love you. - Yeah. - All right, okay. I guess we have to think our partners. - Let's think our partners. (laughing) Okay, I'm telling you guys about aura frames. We have mothers day coming up. So this is the way to upgrade from whatever you usually get your mom, let's say you've got her flowers. That's me, all admitted, I'm a flowers person. So think differently this year and get mom something she is gonna love. So we love aura frames. These are digital frames. They have free and limited storage. You can pre-load photos before you gift them or ship them, personalize your gift. There's a beautiful gift box included, premium packaging, no price tag. And you are gonna set them up in your home and that there's gonna be the photos. You can add videos to it. You can, it edits some, there's some editing features that just help it look perfect and lighting and cropping and all of that. It is the top rated app. Reach number one in the app store on Christmas Day in 2025, what a flex. So these are incredible. We, all our families have them. I mean, my parents, my brother and sister-in-law, your families have them. I mean, my family is scattered all over LA, London, Pittsburgh, in Florida. And so like I was at my sister-in-law's parents house the other day and like my brother and sister-in-law, they have a baby and they're able to like upload all these photos to him all the time. And I look at the app all the time, like see new photos of him. It's just easy and quick and we all have a login and we can all send photos to it. But careful which photos you guys upload. But it's just, it's really nice to like even log in and see the new photos and it's just, it's so nice my sister-in-law's parents keeping their kitchen and just cycles for these photos. - Yes. - This is so cute. - I know. - And they're beautiful by the way, the actual frames. - The actual frames, different sizes of course, whatever's gonna fit best. Like my brother, they have this huge one and their bedroom, my parents have like the smaller size on their bookshelf and I'll just think they're watching it. Just like what's gonna come up and which ones have I put in here, which ones have an I scene. So again, you can make Mother's Day special with or frames or of course any holiday, any giftine occasion named number one by wire cutter. You can save on the gifts, moms love by visiting or frames.com. For a limited time listeners can get $25 off their best selling car format frame with the code GGE. That's a-u-r-a-frames.com promo code GGE. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout, terms and conditions apply. - And revolve, I mean, I am decked out head to tone revolve. Pretty much always and you and I have a wedding coming up in Mexico and you just go under revolve and you type in like what are you looking for? So if you want like fast wear wedding gas, if you want like I typed in vacation in Mexico and they'll curate sort of a shop for you and they have every brand, every price point, every accessory and shoes and it's all curated in a way that I really love it. So you can see everything styled the way that actually like makes sense and they make recommendations for you. Like if you like these shorts, it goes with these shoes and these accessories in this bag. And I, I mean it's my go to, it's the number one place that I shop, they have every brand that I love. So my shorts are super down, my sandals are teeks and my watches syndrome. People always ask me about this watch and I have it in silver too. - These are lovers and friends pants, but I think they're sold out. They might have like one size left I've had them for years. But I have these in a couple different colors. But lovers and friends love the brand and then super down is one of their house brands as well. Just went to a friend's 40th birthday cocktail party, got this set, this like sheer cami and skirt from super down had it sent to the hotel with that free two day shipping. And then I had a customer service issue where like this jacket had shipped and I was like, oh can I grab them and get it shipped in New York instead of getting shipped to LA and it had already shipped so they couldn't do it. But they responded so quickly, they wanted to try to make it work. - Yes, of course they did. - They just are responsive and quick and the best customer service. - So if you guys want like active work, if you want cute sets, I'm shopping for wedding guest outfits. If you want to look elevated, if you want statement pieces, sets, different textures, colors, and they really have everything at the shipping and customer support are second to us. So whether it's a big night out, a wedding, a trip or you just need something last minute that actually works, we're always has it. Go to revolved.com/gge to shop our faves and use the code gge for 15% off your first order and definitely check out the festival shop while you're there. Fast shipping, easy returns, it just makes everything easier. That's revolved.com/gge. You can shop our faves and get 15% off your first order. Offer and say 11th, so don't miss out. Okay, let's get into it. - Okay guys, we are very excited to welcome back a good friend of ours and a recurring guest. She is a relationship coach. She uses her science-backed insights and expertise on love, heartbreak and emotional resilience to encourage people to heal and date smarter. She is the founder of Renew Breakup Bootcamp and the author of the best-selling book Breakup Bootcamp. She has been featured in the New York Times Wall Street Journal, Good Morning America, Today's Show and More Her Book, Unsingle, had a date smarter and create love that lasts is out tomorrow. Please welcome back to the show, our good friend Amy Chan. - Hi! - Hi! - Fourth time. - I know, I know. - We are in a group of, we think three people. - And we released an episode. - Oh no, some technically winning. - You're five episodes in the feed. - So welcome back and congrats. - Thank you. - On book number two. - Yeah. - Breakup Bootcamp was, came out in 2020. - Okay. - Yeah. - Okay, yeah, yeah. We had you on the first time before COVID. And then the book came out and so this is just round two or we'd love it so much. - You really blew people's minds with like how to heal and how to get a more breakup and I think just creating community in general with like how painful that experience is and so many people feel like I'm the only person going through this and I think what you did was like create this experience for so many people where you're like, no, a lot of people go through this and people just imagine this episode to us time and time again. - Yeah, and so guys go back if you're dealing with any sort of breakup, today we're kind of gonna bring you on the pre-dating, dating, early days journey and then as that goes on, breakups happen then they can revisit your other. - Yeah, so that's me. - Can you tell us what inspired this book? - Yeah, you were the breakup girlie and they're like, no, get a new relationship. - Yeah, so I was like, yeah, I was like, I'm not converting in a dating funnel and troubleshoot the right thing. And then I had all these clients, some who were single for like seven years, get into a healthy relationship and I was like, okay, I've got something here. - Wow, yeah. And you also have had your breakup bootcamp retreat and you also personally coach women. - Yeah, women and men now. - Women and men, okay. And is that where you find a lot of the inspiration of like here's what people are going through? - Yeah, so I run dating boot camps as well now. I've got a lot of dates helping people with like understanding patterns and building relational skills and even just like reading nonverbal body language. All these basic things on flirting and connection that we're not taught in school. And then yeah, helping people one on one go from, you know, casual dating to committed. - And you were in a great relationship yourself. - I am. - We were just dating when I first went to the podcast at your apartment. That was like, I was like, maybe a few weeks into my relationship. - With Paul? - Yeah. - You just met him, she was like, do you even go out dinner with him? - Yeah. - In 2020? - Yeah. - That was Paul? - That was Paul. - And you guys were asking me, I'm like, I don't know. - Yeah, it's just like, 'cause then during COVID you guys were wearing-- - Yeah, during the Vancouver. - We were only dating for six months when COVID hit. - Okay. - Yeah. - Oh my God. - I know. - I know this. Anyway, we love Paul. - Yes. - He's wonderful as you guys live in Vancouver now. - Yeah. - Yeah, okay. - So like when you're coaching people and they're like, okay, I feel like I'm ready to date more. Something you bring up in the book is like, people are like, okay, how do I find more dates? - Yeah. - And that you sort of hit the pause button and you're like, let's work on you a little bit first. - Right. - And something you all say in the book is you could skip to chapter 10 about how to attract more people, be more magnetic, maximize the amount of dates you go on. But you really start with like, let's work on you first before let's go on a date, let's find more people. - Yeah. - So let's talk about that a little bit. - And. and do people push back? And they're like, no, I don't want to, I just want to date and then you're like, no, okay, I want to hear how this goes. - Yeah, so a lot of the times people like match make me and like tell me how to get that date. And I'm like, before we do that, like I could put the perfect person in front of you and there will be, maybe you'll go in a few dates but it's gonna end up in the same result, which is failure, right? And what's causing the exhaustion is people are working harder using the same strategy that doesn't work and they don't see that they're just spinning around. So most people are only one to two shifts away from being able to create a healthy relationship. - Okay, I think so. - I know that sounds wild. - It's really hopeful. - But it's like that's thing that they're doing on repeat that they're typically not aware of. So like I'll just give you an example. Like I have a client-turned-friend, they gave me permission, by the way, to talk about this. A jokester, completely like, you know, he would always be dating and doing it for the plot. And his friends would like, expect these stories from him. And so after a while, he would just be dating and almost like doing things and turning it into a story known he would tell it later. And he would never let anyone go beyond that surface, right? Like that humor was his, almost his crutch, the door that attracts someone but he couldn't hold on to a connection. And so we worked on like, okay, stop talking your friends about it. And then how can you actually reveal a little bit more about yourself even though it's so uncomfortable? Like that guy's living in Colorado and he's married today. - Oh, okay. - It is just like seeing something through a different lens. Like I'm dating just for the plot. I'm dating for the stories. Who cares? 'Cause something crazy might just happen and actually not giving somebody a chance. And so I did some coaching with you. And I did it inspired by another person that you coached who's our friend Sally and she works with some vibes only and she's been on our show. And she is so wonderful and a really healthy and amazing partnership with a partner that we love. And she told me how great it had been with you and how you'd helped her with this dating funnel which we'll talk about. And I was like, great, I wanna work with Amy. And you and I sat down and I was like, great, let's talk about how to find more dates. And you were like, let's pause and talk about what's been going on with you. And I spent 90 minutes crying. - Oh my gosh. (laughing) - Yeah. - You should have a point with Amy. - I was really upset about a situation that I was sort of coming out of and somebody who I thought I was really in love with who found somebody else. And you were like, I think your body feels like it's going through a breakup. I think you need to pause and think about why are you choosing these people? Why do you well-morown in these things? And I think it was really important to just stop me and say like, why are we leaning into these patterns over and over again? Instead of just like, let's maximize the amount of dates we got. - Right. Yeah. - Yeah. Do you see any common themes with women, for example, of the patterns that they are stuck in? - I think it really depends. So something I'm seeing a lot with women right now is the over-icking. I think it's great that we're now like all about raising your standards and empowered women. That's amazing. But we've kind of almost over corrected to the point where everything is an "ick." Right? Like, they were sandals to the date. What an "ick." Actually, that was me. (laughs) - I'm sorry, I was like, actually. I was like, I'm not proud of it. Like, back then I was like, oh my gosh, I'm so picky. But like, yeah, I, I ick to guy 'cause he wore sandals on our date. And I never saw him again. I was like, ugh. There was nothing wrong with that guy, right? It was just like a way of thinking of these things that actually don't matter if you were to go on more dates, right? So like, someone wearing sandals on date one, that's 100% of your data points on that person. If you had 100 dates, that would be 1% of your data points. Will you care that much if they're kind and loving and funny and caring? Like, you won't. - I was with a friend, my friend Kelly, who's also been on the show a couple of times. And she does coaching and terror reading. And she's just seen so many women who are really incredible. Where she's like, I have no notes. I just, it's tough. And I don't have all the answers. I'm not licensed therapist to speak to certain things. But her pattern is just like these wonderful women and a disparity in the wonderful men. And that could just be a Doomsday outlook. But we will discuss kind of how to maximize today. But are you seeing that too? Where you're kind of like, ugh. - I am seeing that. And I don't want to be like lower your standards. - No, no, no, for sure. It's just understanding the difference between your preferences and your deal breakers. And I do find that some of my female clients, they think that there is these deal breakers. The guy has to make this amount of money. I had one who's like, they have to have X million of net worth because I have a lot of money. But is that really that? Or do you need someone who's generous? And that you can have a good lifestyle together. And she's like, oh yeah, you're right. So it's not really $10 million in net worth. And so I just like, I think that people need to men and women need to evaluate like what actually matters when it comes to a long term relationship? And there is research that shows what doesn't, which are shiny qualities, like heights. - Yeah. - You know, jawline. If you like skiing and what actually does help a relationship become happy and stable, which is how well do you handle conflict together? How committed are they? Do you feel appreciated by them? Those are the things that are going to be the glue when that chemistry fades. - So let's talk about identifying your patterns. Because I like what you said earlier, like some people just like, with the same information, they just get the person going harder. - Yeah, it's just let's maximize more dates. And I do think at some point that can work. You can go on 25 dates as the same person. Somebody will be happy with your brand of whatever it is and be with you. That's, you can do that. But if people really want to work on themselves, like how do we identify the patterns that exist? - So in the book I talk about the dating funnel, there's five stages. And on the very top stage is prospecting. And that's lead generation. I always say you should have three sources of lead generation. So if you're doing online great, but I would add something where you are doing something that you're actually interested in, whether it's a run club or pottery, whatever. And you will see the same group of people over a period of time. - Are you saying lead generation? - I am. - I'm actually, - No, I don't have that sales job. - It took me a minute, 'cause I was like, I heard it, but I was like, I love that, jargon. - I like how you talk about it as a business. And I've talked about it in the show before. Like why do we not apply the same strategy to dating that we do to everything else? It's so funny, 'cause like, - I feel like it was actually gonna need clarification. - Yeah. - Lead generation, I've lead generation meetings. Like every generation. - Lead generation. - Lead generation. Okay, so I love this. - Right. - I have a marketing background. So that's why I say, I love it. - I love it. - So you want to do something where you will see the same group of people over a period of time, because there's something called the mere exposure effect, which explains how the more you see someone, the more it will amplify the base feeling. So you might meet someone and not feel like, oh my gosh, this is romantic, but you're like, oh, I really enjoy talking to this person. And over time, it will amplify that connection, which can turn romantic. But if it's just one time, you never give that a chance to grow. Also, people who could be really great at dating, they might not be good at the relationship part and vice versa, right? So someone who's more of a wallflower, maybe they're not extroverted and charismatic. They might not, while you at a bar are on a first date, but if you get to know them in a setting where they feel more at ease, then you get to really get to know their character. - Okay, so I want to talk about that a little bit more, because they're good at dating, - Yeah, charming. - Versus like, good at being in a relationship with you. 'Cause I've definitely, I mean, I'm guilty of it too, but you go out with somebody and you're like, eh, I don't know. But on paper, they are like a good person. You're like, didn't show up great on the date, but like when you think about people that are tremendously charming on a first date, they are tremendously charming on every day. - Oh, it's amazing. - Everybody, really great on, they're great on dates. I think it's a red flag. - And you think like, oh no, no, it's 'cause it's so mechanically. - Can I try it out in him? - Yeah, exactly. - So how do you tell people, like, how do you filter for that? - Here's the thing, so okay, we'll go into the other stages because this is how you filter. So after prospecting is the next stage, which is discovery, that's states one to two, that's just a vibe check. And I think the main issue people have, I think especially women is 'cause like, they're like, I don't have time to waste. And so they're trying to be like, are you gonna be my future baby daddy? Like, and even the questions they ask are leading to either judge them or pedestal them. It's too quick for the very first date. When you're like, there's a connection here, and I think like five or above is worthwhile to go again, then once you hit two dates, we get into the evaluation stage. And that's stage three to 20, or like three months. And that's where you figure out how someone is. And you can't fast forward that. Like, everyone wants to know right away. You can't, like, you get to know someone through your first fight by going on a weekend trip and the flights don't work. Like, you see how someone has integrity and they follow through on what they say. Because like the first month, it's very easy to hoodwink you. - Mm-hmm. - No? - Hoodwink. - Yeah, exactly. - Hoodwink is so funny. But John Roll tweeted that out about fire festivities that I too was hoodwinked, bamboozled, and let us try. I'd have been heard hoodwinked since that famous tweet. I mean, some people would say even two months. You know, you can really, how it depends on how good you are at it. - Right. - So here's also something interesting. It's not in the book, but it talks, like, people who have ADHD, the way that they date is also different. So their reward pathways and circuitry is different. So when they are excited about someone, they almost want to blow their dopamine load all at once. So they have the urge to text to see, to call it. They'll do all of it, right? It's very exciting, instead of drawing it out and allowing emotional connection and bonding in the thing. things that create connection to happen. Then after two months, they're like, oh, I'm like bored. And then the other person has no idea like why are they not initiating? Why are they not trying anymore? It's not that they're a bad person, but someone like that, what I would coach them to do, and like you need to draw it out. You can't blow it all up, blow it up. - Okay, yeah. - So how would you even advise them on that, undrawing it out? - So someone like that who has a history of really rushing through romantic connection and getting everything they want really quickly, I would be like, even though you want to, don't follow every urge. You want to pace it out. Don't see them five times a week. Maybe two to three is good, but you want to allow the deeper connection to build so that when the excitement and the stimulation starts to wear down, which it will, there's something else there to hold that connection together. - Yeah, that's interesting. That's a personality type. - Yeah. - Okay, what's that, do we get through the funnel? - Oh no, okay. So yeah, basically after evaluation stage, you are trying to see if someone has, I'd say four pillars for a healthy relationship. That is, there's chemistry, there's compatibility, meaning mutual core values and life vision, right? If you want kids and they don't, that's not compatible. Timing, the perfect person at the wrong time is the wrong person. And then the fourth is mutuality. And this is a big one that people tend to miss. Two people equally invested in building the relationship. It can't be you being the glue, you over accommodating, you can have that, right? And so if all four are present and it's good enough, this is where you're like, okay, I'm gonna jump in to the stage four commitment. And this is where a lot of people who have more avoidant tendencies get stuck. Because they want 100% of the signals that, oh my gosh, this is the person. Because like this is gonna be forever. Like that's not gonna happen. There's a point where it's good enough and to turn it great means diving in with two feet and going through conflict together and ups and downs. And that's how a relationship becomes great. And then the last stage is retention, which is like a whole other book and retreat. - Okay, okay, perfect. Yeah, I think you got the book, do the retreat. - Right, do all of it. So you talk about mutuality. It's interesting, you did an entire chapter about the breadcrum diet. - Right. - So why did it feel important to talk about this in a whole chapter in terms of like what people accept and what's normal to them and what should it feel like? - Yeah, I talk in the book about this experience I had with this guy named Ben. And where basically we had like this one week romance and then afterwards it was like these intermittent rewards. I'd see him for a day every couple of months. He like send me a text from Madagascar and I was like in love with this guy for three years. And like all of those little rewards kept me hooked on him. And like that's what I call the breadcrum diet. It's just enough to keep your attention and keep that tether but never enough to keep you full. And it's, it could be really wearing on yourself worth and yourself a steam. And you're basically in a relationship with someone who's not in a relationship with you. - Not at all. And then do you feel like people romanticize that? Like the just, well he called or he did this or, I don't know, you have like a fake love story in your head that it may work out eventually. And then this is just that journey to get there. And you almost find romance in something that's not romantic at all. - Yeah. And here's like the terrible thing about our psychology. The more obstacles are in your way for this love, the more it makes you want it. Which sucks. Like why did concrete is like that? - I think it's a pretty common experience. - Yeah. - You know like, and so like the inconsistency actually makes you feel more hooked. And then you start obsessing over them because your mind is trying to figure out this puzzle and get an answer. And then when you get that Instagram like, it gives you some relief. So then you start just chasing the relief from the pain versus trying to feel good. - So this definitely obviously comes from childhood for a lot of people and feeling like love was intermittently given to you and having to chase after love and you know it was earned and things like that. And I would love to hear you speak on it. But if that's the kind of person that you are, if that's a familiar pattern to you, how do we stop doing that? - I understand that it can be intoxicating for people. It's gonna be like, but when he does text me where he shows up it feels so good. And if you haven't had a love that's consistent and intentional and that's all you've had, I understand that feeling like a familiar pattern that you're like, I got this. - Yeah. - So how do we talk to people like about not being like that? - Yeah. In sex love addicts anonymously had this term called the qualifier. And for me, Ben was the qualifier. He's like that black hole. It didn't matter. It felt like, okay, I'm just gonna take five hours to respond to the text or distance myself. Anytime he was in my orbit digitally or physically, I would be drawn back in. And the only way to stop it is to cut it off completely. And so I had to do that for like two years. And like now we're friends. He doesn't always in the book. - Oh. (laughing) Surprise, Ben. - That's okay. I had to tell multiple people I wrote about them in my comedy show. - That's so true. - I was like, oh, that's the same thing. - About you. - But yeah, when you're in this hot cold cycle, the only way to get out of it is to stop. And I think awareness is the first step. And then after, okay, how do you stop getting yourself in these situations? It's why I have people do the stating experiment. Which is like really shifting your chemistry compass to go from like unavailability and anxiety and chaos to getting familiar with what stable and peaceful feels like. - When you say what stable and peaceful feels like internally or with a partner or both. - With a partner. - Okay. - You can't go from zero to 100. You can't go from going for unavailable people to going to the most loving person. 'Cause you'll find that loving person boring and you'll reject that, right? It's just like if you've never had Chinese food, I'm not gonna start you at duck feet, right? Like I'm gonna start you at fried rice, right? And then once you like fried rice, I'm gonna introduce, I don't know, green beans with garlic. Like we kind of like almost expose your therapy to Chinese food until it becomes where I feel familiar. Same thing with availability and kind. - What does it look like? - Seeking them out for dates. Like how does it just play out? - So ideally. - Walking away from people quicker when you sense it. - Yeah, so it's a combination of two. So in the book, you conduct your own dating experiment. The way you do it, if you have to date nine people and you can't get into a relationship with any of them. So when I'm working with someone one on one, I will make them date people totally outside their types. - Okay. - If they have a height requirement, I'll make them date someone shorter than them. If a lot of the guys who have an age requirement, I'll make them date someone 10 years older. And what happens is when their homework is they can't get into a relationship with them, they're like, okay, like I'll do it. - That's takes a low. - Stakes are low. They're more present. Like I'm just gonna get to know this person. - What happens eight years right now? - Eight years right now. With my one on one clients, they end up getting into a relationship. And they're like, I'm with someone I would have never been in a relationship with. - Oh yeah. - Shocker. - Yeah. - That was the goal. - Sally did that. Like Sally met Jof on date number two. I was like, you can't get into a relationship with him. - You can't. - We were with her. - Because you jump in way too quickly. So you have to keep going before you like, this is the one and then I act all like obsessive and committed before there's even a commitment. And I made her continue doing the dating experiment. - We were with her. We went to drinks with her when she first kind of met him. And she was like, I'm not allowed to move this forward. She share her whole journey with her. - Oh my god. - She's so good student. - She's the best. Also shorter. And she talks about, she may not have picked him. And she never went for super talk. - Yeah. - Oh yeah. - So you made her date in attractive person. - Oh yeah. - She's like, this is not my top. - Oh, recall. Like her, I would say her ex was objectively unattractive. But very tall. And I say, he's also a bad person on the inside. But tall. - Yeah. - Tall and ugly. (laughing) So she tall ugly bad person. - So what? - She went, she went, she went, she went, she went, she went, she went, she went, she went, she went, oh, he went, she went, she went, she went, she went, old short hot. - He's so rich. - She's so rich. Like, just, like, break it up. - She's a cheap rich kid, which is the worst. - Going back to you saying someone once a rich person, like, we know someone who was really always choosing guys that had a bunch of money, had a Hampton's house this and that, and we're cheap. Like, there's nothing worse. - Yeah. - You don't want someone broke, especially at a certain age, but generous is where it's at. - Yes. - For sure. - Yeah. - You said something in the book that really resonated with me about talking about people that are emotionally unavailable. My mom said this meal a lot of time ago. She said, it doesn't matter why people do what they do, understand why you're attracted to it, but you framed it as like, stop analyzing people's behavior and spending hours trying to figure out why they did what they did because it tethers you to them, even when-- - Right. - Oh, interesting. - Can you talk about that a little bit? 'Cause I thought that was a really interesting way to frame that. - Yeah, so the more you obsess over someone and think about them, which is why when they're hot and cold, there's uncertainty, which makes you do it more, 'cause the brain doesn't like open loops. It's going to try to close it. You will then be like, well, I'm thinking about this person so much, it must be because I love them. It must be because our connection is so strong. So that's how we rationalize the behavior of thinking about them all the time. - Okay, got it. - It's like spending time with them all, so think about them and talk to your friends about them and break down the text message with the interactions. It allows you a masturbate about them by the way. It allows you to spend time with them. - Yeah, exactly. - Okay, so speaking of closing a loop, I really just want to go back to the experiment and I just, I love this so, so much. So I just want to continue to talk about it a little more. And the way that you have strategized this, so people take the pressure off there, like I can date this short person, older person, whatever it is, 'cause I'm not allowed to get in a relationship with them. Anyway, I mean, I'm just kind of repeating what you said, but it's so brilliant because, Otherwise, we do this thing where we're like, "No, but I can't be with that short guy." Or I can't be with that person with that job, or that person of that, I don't know, that culture. When you go into every day thinking that could be my person, that sets you up for failure. So dating a bunch of people casually that are so wildly different than what you've gone for before. Really, I feel like obviously is what does the trick. And it's just really brilliant. So I just want to commend you on what you've developed. Thank you. The program you've developed. The rehab program you took out. Okay, so you tell people to cast a wide net, have a bunch of different sources of lead gen. Then do you have people, they keep a spreadsheet? I mean, some go. Talent, talent, talent. Of course, yeah. Of course, just keep notes. Basically, post date is their part of what you didn't like. Yeah, so what we do is I will give my client homework. So they can't have another session with me until they do their homework, which is usually, at least two more people. And then we come back and we dissect like what, well, what didn't, what came up for you so that they're learning along the way. And I had one client, she's in the book. She was an entrepreneur. And she's like, I can only date people who are entrepreneurs. And she had a seven year relationship that she had a breakup with. I helped her with that and then started helping her date. She did the experiment. And then I think like, Guy five was this guy who had a nine to five job. He worked at the same company in his entire life. And she was like, oh, it was fine. So I'd like keep going, keep going. And then after like eight days, she's like, I don't know, like he's not going to get my schedule. I'm like, I'm so different. And she wanted to end it with him. I'm like, stop it. I'm like, keep going, keep going. And like they've been together for five and a half years now. (laughing) And like he's such a, he's complimentary to her chaos. Yes, she was, no, if I answer her. She was so wrong. She had the complete opposite outlook of what you should have, where you want someone that's the balance, not living the same type of crazy as you. I think that's where people go so wrong. That'd be like us being like, I really need this like comedic podcaster entertainer who tours. 'Cause there's only one that's gonna get it. That's the nightmare, right? - No, I'm not. I want it. - I chose a staple person. - Right. - Like can kind of be along on the crazy life that we live. - I continue to choose comedians. And that is why I say, oh. (laughing) I continue to sleep with comedians who are just as fucked up. - You know, I wanna try it lightly. This is a client, I'm sure she's a wonderful person, but it's interesting that her mind was like, that's the only person that'll get me. I, that's not true. Like other people will get you. - Yeah. - Like, how complex are you? - Yeah. - No, I'm an entrepreneur. You won't understand. It's like, I want someone that gets my sense of humor. He has my same values and things like those are the non-negotiables, but a smart dude can understand my life. A few months of dating, he gets this, she's talking. I don't want it pretty quick. So it's just, but that's, people get stuck in that. - Yeah. - I need someone that does the same thing. So we work together and it's actually the complete opposite. - Right. They have their ideas of what they absolutely need, right? And like another one, like she was saying as well, like, well, he has a certain amount of vacation days. How am I gonna live a life like that? Right? Like, he has a boss. And like, it's fine. Like, it actually worked out okay, and like, if I just told her that on a logical level, she could get it, but she would never really get it. - Yeah. - Which is why she had to do the experiment to be like, oh, actually, this isn't so bad. 100%. - Yeah, I don't love that Shashank has limited PTO. I mean, we could be, just jet-setting all the time. But all right, he says a normal thing. (laughing) It could be worse, he could be a male comedian. It could be so much worse. - Stability's hot. - I just didn't get it, but I'm the issue. I think I finally got this shit kicked out of me and that's times the year. - Famous last words. - It's gonna be so convenient. I did send her one yesterday. I hope he saw it and I was like, oh, no, short. - So, I'd do it. - I would be like, you can't date anyone funny. - Yes, he'd be like, no jokes. - Jokes? - Nope, can't date him. - That's so funny. - When I really think about it, somebody who needs to be professionally funny, I don't need that. - Yeah, I'll handle the jokes. - I'm sorry. - I'm not the joke, I got the money, I got the jokes. - Do you have another success story you love? - These are just fascinating to me. In terms of someone that ended up with someone they never would have picked. - I do, I have one client. - And again, they all agreed to allow me to talk about it. - But one, she's like, yeah, I always eat these guys. These guys, they're so unavailable. And then the ones who like me, I don't like them. That's a common problem. And I was like, okay, let's look at who your history and she was dating guys who were like, 10 out of 10 of the traction scale, super successful tall. And I'm like, yeah, like these guys are fun and they'll have sex with you. But like there are troves of women who are gunning after this guy, right? So you can keep like competing with all of them and they don't have the attention span for you or you can just stop that. And so like I had to do the dating experiment and one of the guys, she had known this guy through like parties and stuff like that. And one day she's like, okay, like, went on a date with this guy. And she's like, you know, it was like, okay, but like I really loved how he was like so open and about his divorce and he just kept being such an open book that allowed me like to talk a lot about my stuff. And like they keep going. She's like a business woman. So she's also very like doesn't let people in easily. And so I think the fact that he was so open allowed her to be herself. And like they're in a relationship today. And like, look, he's like a teacher. Like he's totally not like the set and guy from Miami that she's used to. And like, but she's the star of the show. And it's great. - It is true. - I mean, you make like that list of like, I want him to be a sir, I want the height, I want the money, I want the income level, I want the certain career, I want the certain type of education. Everybody is going for that person. You're like on the bachelor. - Yeah. - Like literally, you're competing. - Yeah. - So going back to this, you're turned off to people who want you. That's tough. And I think we've all felt that. And I think I've overcome it too. And then there's certainly like a needyness, desperate. That's just going to be an Ick. But how do you combat that truly, you only want people who don't want you? - I mean, that's a lot of therapy. - I mean, really understanding why an activated nervous system is what gives you thrills. - Right. - Right? Like, so some of my guy clients, they date broken birds. Or people who come with a lot of chaos or drama. And when I'm working with them, I'm not like, okay, let's get you dating like another girl who's very peaceful. I'm like, where in your life are you not living a full life? Because you're outsourcing your excitement to someone else. So their chaos actually makes you feel alive. That's the problem. So that's like that foundational work before I even get them into dating. - It's like a savior complex. - Yeah. I think we assign that to women a lot. - Men really have this. - No, we never do. We never talk about this as much 'cause we also want to think like, just women are wonderful and they don't need saved and all of stuff. But I see those as the guy friends. - Yeah. - That they always go for a broken, insecure woman they want to fix. - Yeah. - Yeah. So like with some of those clients, I'm working with them on like, you got to go get guy friends. Like just because your college buddies who are not married, like you can't just accept that's your friendship destiny. Go get some hobbies. Like I'll even make them go and do like flow state dancing and stuff and get into their body. Things that aren't achievement oriented. Like get them back into play. Like when they're so serious and analytical with work, just get tapped back into their human sides so that they are cultivating their aliveness and vitality from within versus like, finding a girl and being like, let me suck your vitality and like, you know, feel good about myself. - Yeah. My gosh, I never thought about that. - Just like a vampire. People that like truly are just, that's where they're getting their thrills. - Yeah. - From their updating. - And they don't think that, they think they're just being so nice. - Uh huh. - Right. - Yeah, get a hobby. I love that. - That's true. - I mean, you probably see that with women too, without anybody where they're one priority in life is to find a partner and that is not what, the right people are looking for. People who are like healthy and stable want someone with a life and interest and hobbies and passions. - Yeah, and I think a lot of it's also when you don't have that, if you don't have a full life, your energy just is different, right? Like the stakes are so high. Like you better like me because like, there's so much on you and people can feel that. It just feels off. I mean, that's how I used to date. Like I was so good at getting the first date or the second date, you know, I knew all the tricks. I was that person who was great at dating. I couldn't hold a relationship. That was way too needy. - Mm-hmm. - I was like, I just want to be your plus one and they could feel that energy. - Yeah, the desperation. - Yeah. - So you tell people to have nine people in the funnel, not at all times? - No. - So like, let's talk, how many people should we be dating like it wants? Cause I like the idea that like, you're not putting all of your eggs in this one basket, but like, you know, can't have nine, if I ask you. - This process takes usually nine, - Nine-suitable guys. - Six months to a year. - Yeah. - In the country that there's that many. - In any city? No, no, it's not possible. - Maybe she's like, date women also. (laughing) - Okay, sorry, no. - So how does this usually play out? Cause nine feels, I know people are listening, like there's no fucking way. Tell us how this works. - I mean, so if it's over a course of six months - Okay. - To a year. I mean, like, you can do that. - That's a work of your time. Like, you're doom scrolling for longer than that. - Yeah. - And like, that's the thing, right? Like I say in my book and in life, like if there's anything meaningful you wanna create, whether it's a stand up comedy career or a relationship, you need to do 100% of your 50%. The other 50% is out of your control, luck timing, whatever. But your 100% of your 50 is like, are you putting yourself out there? If you are super busy and you have a startup, and you don't have the time or the capacity for a relationship, you probably shouldn't be dating. That's okay, right? But just be realistic. If you wanna relationship, then yeah, you're gonna have to carve out time to do so. And you might have to have your routine in your full life, but you might have to be like, no, like I'm gonna spend five hours a week, and that is gonna be dedicated to dating. - Okay. And then when you are working with clients and they're doing it and they're going in the dates, what would you say how they're finding these people? Like is it just such a mix of app versus whatever club they might be in versus being set up? I mean, are you just like, I don't care? Do, I don't care. - I don't care. - Okay, so I have three sources of regeneration. - Okay. - And I'll give them ideas on that. - Yeah. - But I will also help them with what I call green lighting. - Okay. - So green lighting is like a state of being in the world where your signals is like, I'm friendly and approachable versus like, if you come up to me, I'm gonna fuck you up. - Okay. - And like being aware of what is the energy that you're emitting? And the first thing I'll have people do is I'll have them do experiment for seven days. They have to make eye contact with everyone they come across with on the street. And they have to hold gaze. And even when they're getting their coffee, they have to make eye contact. And like make that person feel like the most important person in the room. - Okay. - And what will happen is people who are typically used to not being seen, they'll start responding to you in a positive way. And you're basically learning the art of eye contact, which is the beginning of flirtation in a low stakes environment. So that when you are at the party or the event, you're just kind of naturally doing it. - Okay. - Yeah. So when you talk about the psychology of being magnetic and that's like half of you hit the book, like is this where you kind of start? Like I've seen about the person you said had hadn't been in a relationship with seven years, which is probably pretty rare, but not completely uncommon. And if somebody's like, I don't even know what to do. Is that like an exercise you, yeah. - I would work on the basics of like sometimes like I can't make eye contact. Like it scares the shit out of me. Then I'm like, okay, we have to work on these things. How do you actually have a conversation that is engaging? So it's like a back and forth versus your tennis ball machine and you're shooting tennis balls at someone who hasn't picked up a racket. - Are you sometimes talking to people and you're like, oh, I get, like, (laughing) do you have to tell people gently, like you interrupt a lot or you don't, and like are you sometimes me with clients and you're like, oh, if you're doing this on a date, it's off-putting? - Yeah, there's that. There is this all the time. I'll look at their dating program. Like this doesn't look like you, right? Like you should actually look better in person than in your photo. Because the worst thing is it's disappointment and like the shock of disappointment is what someone doesn't bounce back from. So like if you're bald, you're bald, but don't pretend that you're not. And then you show up and you're bald. Like that gap where they're like, oh, you're not gonna recover from that. - Disappointment and also depending on how big the discrepancy is, dishonesty. - Right. - Like that's the number one way to make sure that you have a disappointing date and you never see that person. - Totally. - Right, but the over filtering of the face is dishonest. - Yeah, yeah, so. - Are there other ways to be magnetic? - We're so often concerned about like what we're doing to be magnetic and to be likeable. But really, it's about how you leave people feeling. - Okay. - It's like people are really just in their own world. So if you are the type of person who can ask questions and be present and again, like make that person feel like they're the most important person in the room. And this goes across not even just in relationships. This is a life skill of being actually curious about the person having them self-disclosed because that gives them dopamine. That will make you more magnetic. - Asking questions. - Well, I know right now 'cause it's interesting 'cause I feel like Reina is so good at that with anybody. Like friends, date partners, you know, but then what you fall for is when people ask you questions 'cause it's my love language. When somebody allows me to de-escalate and they're asking me all the questions, I'm like, how quickly can I get my clothes off? - The way you are and you are really curious and you really like to get to know people, but like do you really enjoy it? (laughs) Or do you actually just wanna talk about yourself? - I really just wanna talk about myself. I mean, (laughs) I think your strangers would say, Reina asks a lot of questions, she's very curious. And I think my closest friend would say, Reina will find anyway to make it to better. - It's not. - No, you really are the best listener of the best friend. But then I think sometimes it makes people feel close to you too soon, even with it. - Yeah, that's right. - So you know, like Reina, this one night, this girl's night, we met all these girls, Reina and this one were locked in. I was like, oh my gosh, she's never gonna leave you alone. - I know. - She thinks you're her best friend now. - But it's better to have that skill and then know how to turn it off on her than not having it all. - Yes, on her than not having it all. - My party trick, when I'm like at a party, I'm like, oh fuck, I can't. I'll just like talk to people and I'll just like tell me more. - Have fun. - And then like they love me, I'm like, fuck it. - Right. - It's an hour, I gotta go night. - I actually hate you. Yeah. (laughing) Any other test room, I do have another question. Any other test room being more magnetic. I think this is great. Asking questions, make good eye contact. - There's this really interesting study that they did in the UK where they had all these cameras at a bar and they wanted to see like who makes the first move. And what they found was it was actually the woman that made the first move. So before a guy would approach her, she would make an average of, I believe it was 13 interact and indirect glances at the guy. That guy would make an average of seven space maximization movements while checking to see if she was looking. And so this is like stretching your arms, patting your buddies back to show where you are in the social hierarchy. - Okay. - And if she noticed and there was enough eye plate, then he would physically approach her. And they've done this study in different bar settings and what they found it's not the most beautiful, physically attractive woman that gets approached the most. It's the one who seems the most approachable. - Okay. - So human beings very quickly in a millisecond. When they're meaning a stranger, they are seeing is this person safe, meaning are they gonna reject me or are they dangerous? And is this person a winner or a loser? Those are the two things that are subconsciously they're picking up. So if you are giving out signals of like, why am I here like, oh my God, no one will come up to you. - And if they do, it's the wrong type of person. - Yeah. - No one's like, man, that girl looks like a bitch. I'm gonna talk to her. That's like a guy with a good shame kink. - Right. - Like who wants to be rejected? Okay, so, but what are we talking body language? Like at the bar, like just-- - Open body language, being able to make eye contact. So there's like three different types of gazes. So basically when you walk into say like a bar or party, there's like the room and compassing glance where you kind of like serving the land, be like, is there anyone? And then if you see someone, you basically, you kind of look like this kind of direct and indirect glances. It's pretty short. And you're just trying to see if they'll catch your attention. Once you notice like, oh, they're kind of looking at me back, then you want to do like the longer glance. So you kind of hold eye contact. And like bonus points, if you could hold eye contact and then have a slow earned smile. - Okay. - And then activate something in the other person subconsciously of like, oh my gosh, like I'm special. This gazes for me and this smile is for me. And that will start creating the interest for someone to want to talk to you. - Okay. I was interested in the stuff you said guys are doing. Like there is what just kind of-- - You see it all that, when you go out, you'll start seeing it. - You might think that, like they will put their hands here as well. They'll make themselves look bigger. - Yeah. - I've gone into like business meetings with a guy and the keys just trying to do-- I'm like, dude, I fucking know body language. I know what you're trying to do. You're power moving me. I'm like, please. - Putting their arms behind their head. - Yeah. - Like real peacocking. - But you're saying in the bar, I might mean they're interested. They're looking back at what you were teaching. - They're the reason why they're trying to do it. Right? That is interest of like, like CV, like I'm mad. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Okay. - I mean, I wish you could like be on these dates and like watch. - Cool. - I think some people think they're flirting but they're really nagging. And I like a lot of people really revert. I can men say to us all the time, the number one thing I hate is when someone just kind of like pokes at me and necks me. - Yeah. - I think people think they're being funny. - Yeah. - Playful or hard to get. And the advice is men like bitches. And so I think that like, it's bad, toxic advice, but people kind of lean into it. Do people tell you like, I don't know what to talk about when somebody comes over to me? Or are you like, I can't do everything for you. - I mean, I like, look, I have like some questions that allow people to have in their back pocket to get a conversation from like, how's the weather to something a bit deeper and again, like you don't want to go from zero to 100. There's a reason why they're small talk like, oh, like have you been to this bar before? What's your favorite drink to something a little bit deeper than that, right? You don't want to like divulge your trauma like on dates one when you've met someone for 30 minutes. - Yeah, I don't want to. - I mean, I love to comment on what's happening in the room. I mean, if you're at the bar, I mean, if there's a long line, like something you can be funny about without sounding like negative and complaining but like just observational. And then at party, I think, how do you know the host? - Yes. - Like that when you answer, give something they can laugh on to. We went to college together, there's no, too vague. - What college? - Where like anything, I always think like, think of the way you respond, is there any follow up question they could ask? I don't know, I just think that's like the details you can pepper in that someone can grab onto. - Yeah, and in the book, I give a template for open door closed door questions. - Yeah, okay. - So it's like, how do you actually do that? - Yeah, okay. - Okay. - Yeah, I wrote this quote down from you about a paradigm shift. You said you invite the reader to consider. What if instead of viewing each day and experience as a means to an end, you saw it as part of the grander journey? And essentially just bad dates even. Fail connections as stepping stones. Every date, every interaction gives you insight into your desires, your priorities, and how to connect with others. Some people in our lives to show us what we don't want, which is just as important as discovering what we do. And I think that's really important because it's so easy to go on a handful of bad dates, a 10, a dozen, nine, and just be like, this is miserable. But it's like, but that's, you're on the journey. What was the goal here to meet your husband in high school? You know, like if not, you have to do the things. - Yeah. - So I think that's a great shift that you discuss. - Yeah, and I know it's hard, but like getting jaded and then grouchy and then being like, "Oh my god, dating just sucks." Like, it's impossible. The story will not serve you for the goal that you want. And you can believe it and that's fine. But if you actually want a relationship, you need to do all the work for like mental workout to keep yourself in a positive frame of mind. - Well, how do you balance that? I'm jaded and cynical and I've been on 10 terrible dates and you almost feel silly to get excited. You know, not like, "Oh my god tonight, "I'm gonna meet my husband." I think we're all like most of us, especially a certain age or not. You know, we're a little more realistic than that. But I do think about a woman, for example, that is before you even get to the date or meeting the person, you're in a really negative mindset. But you don't want to do this like, tonight could be the night. You know, and how do you find that happy medium? - So there's some signs behind this in the book, it's like a predate priming ritual. - Oh, okay. - This is really important. So right now what's happening is like, our dopamine rewards circuits are like almost getting exhausted, right? And for a day, if we're like scrolling or watching porn, we're doing all these things. That's like almost like blowing our dopamine low. And then we go on the day and we're like, "I feel nothing." So what you want to do before the day, you want to set aside some time like 30 minutes to an hour. And if you actually do something that cultivates awe, you can do this by even watching a video of the Northern Lights or listening to a song that really moves you. And just getting the presence of like, "Oh my gosh, I'm in the presence of something bigger than myself." It actually will make you more open, more connected to others. And so you want to get yourself in that state so you're actually setting yourself up for success. It's like an athlete before they are about to go and do a race. You don't just like, watch TV, like smoke weed and then you go on your fucking ski race. Like you do the thing to prep you for the best chances of success. The same thing goes for dating. I love that. Even if you go straight from a stressful day at work, straight to the day, that's not the regret. I mean, there just needs to be a transitional period or you're just bringing it into the day. But this is just not, this is all of us. Yeah. Being in a bad mood and taking it out on someone else. Yeah. I remember on the way to my first date with Paul, I was in the Uber and I'm like, I'm just gonna do it really differently 'cause I used to be that person who asked questions. Like, oh, like what area do you live in? Like Trepeca, Lienin. Right? Like, Goannis? Lino? (laughing) That's so funny. And I'm like, I'm just gonna have fun tonight. Like, I'm just gonna have fun and have a good time and like, the state's gonna go well. And I'm just gonna have a good time. And like, I really just set that intention and I do think that it primed me and it helped me have a fun time. And when I first met Paul, like our first hour, we had a drink and I wasn't like, oh my God, like what a hot guy. Like I wanna be with him. I was like, oh this is fun. Like, yeah, this is cool, it's cool conversation. He's like, hey, do you wanna grab a bite? I'm like, oh, okay, let's go. And then after bite, like, oh, do you wanna grab dessert? Oh, okay, let's go. And then we just kinda, throughout the night, the connection started to grow. - Uh-huh. I like not going into it with that attitude. I think that it is really hard to not go into it, especially when you're dating so much because so much online is about how bad a dating is. I mean, there couldn't be more articles about how terrible men are and how women are single. And the dating pool is awful. And especially when you go on three or four bad dates, you're just like, I guess I'll fucking do this, but it's not gonna be fun. I like the idea of like disconnecting, just saying yourself, I'm just gonna have fun. I'm not gonna bring all this baggage into it. It's hard. It's easier said than done. - Yeah, for sure. - Well, I think that's how the experiment plays into it too, because you are supposed to go into it. That's not my person. I'm not even allowed to date them right now. You know, this is just casual low stakes, so that helps too. And if you're going on a date every night of the week, three nights, oh, you can't imagine, but I guess I think we're doing that. I mean, maybe you're doing too much. - Right. - You know, like if you're genuinely fatigued, not even because of the people you're dating, just because of the time commitment and your schedule, you can change that. - Right. - You don't wanna go into that either. - Oh, who was it? Friend recently went out with a guy, and like, he just kept talking about how tired he was. Like, leaning up to it, and she was like, do you not wanna go? - Yeah, this, our friend Abar, he like, moved the date, which she was like, that's fine, we can do it another night. It's my second date, it's not that big of a deal, but then all day was like, I'm so tired, and then he told her he was hung over, and she was like, I don't really, she says anything like, maybe a lot of this. She said, I don't really wanna give the impression that I'm so chill 'cause I'm not. And so I don't really wanna like, keep hearing this stuff from him, I don't know what to say to him. And I was like, say to him, if you don't feel good, let's reschedule, I don't want to talk waterboarding with how you feel bad. I'm not trying to hear this. And again, we talked about like maybe he was just like, well, she's a partier, I'm relating, not being hung over, but like at a certain age. - Showing interest to what she cares about. - But she's to us, yeah, like, but I joke about this 'cause my first date, which I was unclear if it was even a date, I didn't know what it was with my ex, like 10 years ago, now at this point, we were meeting for lunch, such a weird story. Again, I was like, is this, is this a re-networking or what, what, he told me he was hung over, and I remember being on the way to meet him and being like, do you wanna reschedule? What are you, I didn't, okay, why are you sharing this? It's different if you get there and you're upbeat and you're like, I gotta be honest, last night, it was a late night or something like that. But to preface it. - No, it's crazy, you know what it kinda reminds me of is people that put on their dating app profile that they think it's stupid to have a dating app profile that like, I can't believe we're gonna find somebody on here. I'm just, like, people, I've not seen this before. I feel like I've seen this from people that are just like, if you have a question just ask me, I can't put my dating app, you're just like, what are you talking about? - What are you talking about? - I'm not a tiffity. - Yeah, like you're not supposed to on dating apps lead with what you don't want. - Right. - It's like, yeah. - Yeah, you can just use AI, reframe what you don't want into a positive statement. - That's so cool. - Is that something you need to work with clients? Like, do you pick up on like an overall cynicism negativity that needs to be shifted? - Yeah, so like, I'll pick out the pattern. Like, it's, human beings are pretty predictable. So I can tell what people's things are. Like, I have one client and I'm like, oh, like, you keep shooting way too low and that's why you date these people that treat you like crap because internally, you don't actually see how you are on the outside. Like, you're operating from like a low self-esteem world and like, her experiment was, I'm like, you need to go and approach a guy that you think is outside of your league. - Oh, right. - And then I'll have another client. I'm like, you are not interested in people. Like, you're the type of person who's like, looking over the shoulder. Like, this was a friend turn client. I'm like, you don't ask questions, you don't care. And so we worked on that first and it actually changed her relationship even with her employees. And like, she's a likable person now. I'm like, before I'm like, you weren't that likable. - Yeah. - I think that's, somebody needs to tell you. - Well, it's something, yay. - Yay, guys. - I'm direct. Like, I'm not gonna sugar come. Be like, oh, man, you're amazing. I'm like, there's a thing that you're doing and it's not working. It's not 'cause your flawed isn't human being. It's a behavior or a habit that you've picked up and you reinforced over and over again. - So men not asking questions on dates. This is a epidemic. - It's men and women. - Of course, no, of course. - Yeah, yeah. - I agree, but we hear from women. So with those guys and women too, I guess, is there hope or is this a person who genuinely has no curiosity or interest in other people? - So you have to be able to discern if someone's just being arrogant and like, having their own podcast episode while they're going on a date with you. Or are they nervous? Because what happens is sometimes guys who are not good at dating, they're like, trying to impress you. So they're like, oh, like, she hear on my successes. Like my trophies and they think that they're doing that to make you like them. So you just, you have to be able to use your intuition to discern what type of person it is. - Okay, go on. And you said when we first started this conversation that there's like, most people are one to two shifts away from just being in a better place overall, could those be a multitude of things? - A multitude of things, right? - Okay, depending on what you say. - I would see a big common one though, it is who they're choosing. - Okay. - So there's a reason why they're choosing a certain emotional experience wrapped up in different packages. - Okay. - Yeah, great. This flew by. - I know. - Yeah, this flew me. - It did. - And we could talk to you forever, but I really, really encourage people to buy this book and I was saying to you before we started recording. Actually, and I read so many books about dating and relationships and sometimes I see the same advice recycled over and over again. And this is a really great actionable book about how to first start with yourself and then start dating and just challenge yourself to break these patterns and find better people. And you've just done such a great job. - I know. - I mean, you really, you started this breakup boot camp and now this is this, I like the term boot camp, it doesn't have to be intimidating or scary, but you're like, you gotta do the work. And if you are not willing to, this isn't for you. Take it or don't, you know? So I just love your outlook and these program strategies, everything you've developed on your own. - Thank you. - Thank you. - So yeah, you're just wonderful. And we of course encourage everyone to get the book tomorrow. - Yes, the book's out tomorrow and tell everybody where they can find you everywhere. - Yeah, I'm @MissAmiChan and I actually have like a first date assessment and partnership formula on my website. So MissAmiChan.com/unsingle. - I am. - Okay. And you guys know where to find us girls.gaddy.com. Girls.gaddy.com cast on Instagram and TikTok. I am #SutmanInstagram and TikTok. Raina is a Raina.Greenberg. Raina.Greenberg.com for tour tickets. My special will debut this Thursday. - Hi. - I already mentioned this, of course, a million times, but just to leave you guys with that. So you can watch it live, interactive Thursday, 8 PM Eastern time on YouTube. Link is in my bio. Link's been everywhere at this point. You've seen it and then if you wanna watch it on May 1st, it will be on Prime Video. So yeah. - Yay. - And of course, you can watch full video of our episodes on Spotify and YouTube and we'll see you Thursday. - Have a good week, guys. - Bye. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)