The DARKEST Secret Epstein Network They Hid from You | Nick Bryant

so you were the original guy to leak the black book the famous the infamous i should say epstein black book i was the guy that leaked not only the black book but i also leaked the flight logs too oh i didn't realize that you did the flight logs as well where'd you get those fucking things okay i got the black book from an attorney that was representing a number uh that was representing some embassy victims and then i got the flight logs from an attorney that was represented representing some of the obscene victims why do you think they gave them to you was it because there were just so few people digging around on it then you were just persistent or was it because you had been on the case for such a long time and had developed relationships with those guys well you know i give them a couple million dollars and uh i had written a lot about child trafficking i'd written a book called the franklin scandal which epstein is almost a carbon copy of the franklin scandal and so i had that going for me and plus i've done a lot of anti-child trafficking activism i've spoken at a number of conferences so when i showed up it's not like i'm some reporter that's looking for a job i'm not looking for a job i'm looking for a job i'm looking for a salacious scoop i i really wanted justin and and this was 2011 and nobody was going to these attorneys in 2011 so i went down to florida and i just i'd had the franklin scandal published about two years earlier and it we couldn't get anyone to buy it i spent seven years writing that book seven years seven years on that how did you i mean we're going to get into the background of that as well because that's a forgotten one and obviously you're like the guy on it but how did you initially even get into investigating the franklin scandal well it's kind of a weird story i was sitting and uh i was pitching articles to a magazine editor okay and i'd written about the hell's angels i'd written about serial killers you know i'd written about mobsters and um so he just kind of pegged me as a guy that writes about dark stuff and so he pitched me dark stories and i said you know i mean i mean how dark do you want to go i mean satanists nazis you know what how dark and then he goes and i and that glint and an editor's eye you can always see that glint and he goes satanists so i had a simple plan and whenever anybody says they have a simple plan then you know it's not going to be a simple plan no so i had a simple plan i was going to hang out with some satanists i was going to go to a black mass and then i was going to write an article would have been an easy pretty easy money that actually is straightforward just go straight to the sign up sheet yeah hey guys if you're not following me on spotify please hit that follow button and leave a five-star review they're both a huge huge help thank you i found uh some satanists to be very unsavory and then i found some satanists to be less unsavory and then i found some satanists to be less unsavory and then i found some satanists to be less unsavory and then i found some satanists to be less unsavory but as a writer when you're looking at a subject you're looking at tangential stories and i came across a story about a cult called the finders and two finders were in a tallahassee park with six kids and the kids looked like ragamuffins and these guys were dressed in suits and the kids looked like ragamuffins so uh concerned citizen these guys were dressed in suits and the kids looked like ragamuffins and the kids looked like ragamuffins and called the tallahassee police department the tallahassee police department took one look and they called the tallahassee police department the tallahassee police department took one look and they arraigned the finders on multiple counts of child abuse arraigned the finders on multiple counts of child abuse and then put the children protective services and then put the children protective services and then put the children protective services and actually and actually and actually i have the uh tallahassee police report i have the uh tallahassee police report i have the uh tallahassee police report a doctor said that two of the kids showed a doctor said that two of the kids showed a doctor said that two of the kids showed the the u.s customs i believe got involved the the u.s customs i believe got involved the the u.s customs i believe got involved because they thought that child child because they thought that child child because they thought that child child abuse material was involved so i got abuse material was involved so i got abuse material was involved so i got the customs report on on that the customs report on on that the customs report on on that investigation investigation investigation and the last and the last and the last and it's written by uh special agent and it's written by uh special agent and it's written by uh special agent ramon martinez ramon martinez ramon martinez and the last page and the last page and the last page of that of that of that document document document said of that investigative report says said of that investigative report says no more investigation i'm paraphrasing no more investigation i'm paraphrasing no more investigation i'm paraphrasing and then that and then that and then that just blew my mind i mean just blew my mind i mean just blew my mind i mean first of all the cia isn't supposed to first of all the cia isn't supposed to first of all the cia isn't supposed to operate operate operate in the united states i mean that's in the united states i mean that's in the united states i mean that's never stopped them but legally they're never stopped them but legally they're never stopped them but legally they're not allowed to not allowed to not allowed to and then why would and then why would and then why would the cia go to bat for a bunch of a the cia go to bat for a bunch of a the cia go to bat for a bunch of a strange cult that's seemingly doing strange cult that's seemingly doing strange cult that's seemingly doing ominous things to children ominous things to children ominous things to children so that was kind of a big bang for me i so that was kind of a big bang for me i so that was kind of a big bang for me i mean mean mean at that point i became willing to at that point i became willing to at that point i became willing to entertain ideas entertain ideas entertain ideas that i otherwise wouldn't have that i otherwise wouldn't have that i otherwise wouldn't have entertained entertained entertained and then bouncing around on the internet and then bouncing around on the internet and then bouncing around on the internet was kind of a similar was kind of a similar was kind of a similar story in omaha story in omaha story in omaha and there was uh a documentary that and there was uh a documentary that and there was uh a documentary that had been made about it but the document had been made about it but the document had been made about it but the document the the uh the the uh the the uh plug had been pulled on the documentary plug had been pulled on the documentary plug had been pulled on the documentary before it was finished but before it was finished but before it was finished but the either the director or the producer the either the director or the producer the either the director or the producer released a very rough cut of it released a very rough cut of it released a very rough cut of it and it was bouncing around the internet and it was bouncing around the internet and it was bouncing around the internet and and and there was a former state senator that there was a former state senator that there was a former state senator that had written a book about it had written a book about it had written a book about it but it wasn't i mean you could tell but it wasn't i mean you could tell but it wasn't i mean you could tell that something went down that something went down that something went down but but but people had blown it up to like it was people had blown it up to like it was people had blown it up to like it was an an an interstate child trafficking network uh interstate child trafficking network uh interstate child trafficking network uh that was connected to the cia that was that was connected to the cia that was that was connected to the cia that was connected to washington dc that was connected to washington dc that was connected to washington dc that was connected to blackmail much like what we connected to blackmail much like what we were seeing with uh whichever epstein were seeing with uh whichever epstein were seeing with uh whichever epstein and that they were plundering boystown and that they were plundering boystown and that they were plundering boystown which is the distinguished catholic which is the distinguished catholic which is the distinguished catholic orphanage and orphanage and orphanage and um uh outside of omaha for kids so um uh outside of omaha for kids so um uh outside of omaha for kids so i had a you know i had a you know i had a you know i decided to look into it i decided to look into it i decided to look into it i've studied philosophy in college and i've studied philosophy in college and i've studied philosophy in college and um um um socrates said that socrates said that socrates said that you should approach everything you should approach everything you should approach everything agnostically agnostically agnostically on my best days i can do that so i on my best days i can do that so i on my best days i can do that so i decided decided decided to approach this but i knew that to approach this but i knew that to approach this but i knew that something had gone down something had gone down something had gone down i i wasn't sure of exactly what it i i wasn't sure of exactly what it i i wasn't sure of exactly what it would have gone down but i knew that i i would have gone down but i knew that i i would have gone down but i i thought that there were probably some thought that there were probably some thought that there were probably some like there was a ring like there was a ring like there was a ring in omaha of maybe wealthy guys that that in omaha of maybe wealthy guys that that in omaha of maybe wealthy guys that that had molested the kids had molested the kids had molested the kids so when i got to omaha what year is so when i got to omaha what year is so when i got to omaha what year is this next this is uh 2002 2003 okay so this next this is uh 2002 2003 okay so this next this is uh 2002 2003 okay so when i got to omaha i um when i got to omaha i um when i got to omaha i um i i i i found a victim that i i i i found a victim that i i i i found a victim that was willing to talk to me he seemed to was willing to talk to me he seemed to was willing to talk to me he seemed to be telling the truth be telling the truth be telling the truth there was a actually a senate subcommittee there was a actually a senate subcommittee there was a actually a senate subcommittee that was formed a state senate that was formed a state senate that was formed a state senate subcommittee subcommittee subcommittee to investigate it and their uh lead to investigate it and their uh lead to investigate it and their uh lead investigator investigator investigator his plane blew up in midair when he had his plane blew up in midair when he had his plane blew up in midair when he had some critical evidence some critical evidence some critical evidence and he was flying back to omaha what and he was flying back to omaha what and he was flying back to omaha what was that guy's name was that guy's name was that guy's name gary curadori gary curadori gary curadori gary curadori his plane blew up his plane blew up his plane blew up his plane blew up his plane blew up his plane blew up funny how that happens yeah yeah funny how that happens yeah yeah funny how that happens yeah yeah so i and then i got to one of the so i and then i got to one of the so i and then i got to one of the blackmail photographers blackmail photographers blackmail photographers with blackmail photographers yeah with blackmail photographers yeah with blackmail photographers yeah is that exactly what it sounds like yeah is that exactly what it sounds like yeah is that exactly what it sounds like yeah he took pictures yeah he took pictures yeah he took pictures yeah so and that guy okay so and that guy okay so and that guy okay okay so okay so okay so to be a blackmail photographer to be a blackmail photographer to be a blackmail photographer to have that kind of shall we call it to have that kind of shall we call it to have that kind of shall we call it vocation vocation vocation to have that kind of vocation shows to have that kind of vocation shows to have that kind of vocation shows that there's some moral turpitude yeah that there's some moral turpitude yeah that there's some moral turpitude yeah and um and um and um but i was talking to him about it and he but i was talking to him about it and he but i was talking to him about it and he said that he gave caridori pictures said that he gave caridori pictures said that he gave caridori pictures in chicago and in chicago and in chicago and terry was signed back because the fbi terry was signed back because the fbi terry was signed back because the fbi he said it told him to get out of town he said it told him to get out of town he said it told him to get out of town and um and then he he said he started and um and then he he said he started and um and then he he said he started bawling bawling bawling when he he started talking about gary when he he started talking about gary when he he started talking about gary caridori caridori caridori i mean just broke down in tears wait so i mean just broke down in tears wait so i mean just broke down in tears wait so he's bawling even though he was the guy he's bawling even though he was the guy he's bawling even though he was the guy that stood in there and took these that stood in there and took these that stood in there and took these pictures forever yes pictures forever yes pictures forever yes yeah yeah so what yeah so what yeah so what you know humans are incomprehensible you know humans are incomprehensible you know humans are incomprehensible man i guess you know it's um sometimes guys that are straight up sometimes guys that are straight up sometimes guys that are straight up sociopathic sociopathic sociopathic can actually commit acts of altruism i can actually commit acts of altruism i can actually commit acts of altruism i mean i'm not saying that it's yeah i mean i'm not saying that it's yeah i mean i'm not saying that it's yeah i understand the rule but it happens but understand the rule but it happens but understand the rule but it happens but so so so and then and then and then i got i i talked to one of the senators that i i talked to one of the senators that i i talked to one of the senators that was investigating and and i wanted him was investigating and and i wanted him was investigating and and i wanted him to go on record i was still hoping to to go on record i was still hoping to to go on record i was still hoping to salvage a magazine article out of this salvage a magazine article out of this salvage a magazine article out of this but he wouldn't go on record with me i but he wouldn't go on record with me i but he wouldn't go on record with me i talked to talked to talked to um someone who was in charge of the um someone who was in charge of the um someone who was in charge of the foster care services uh reviewing the foster care services uh reviewing the foster care services uh reviewing the foster care service and she wouldn't foster care services and she wouldn't talk but she was she was frightened i talk but she was she was frightened i talk but she was she was frightened i mean they both told me that this is real mean they both told me that this is real mean they both told me that this is real and it's frightening and it's frightening and it's frightening and and and over the course of my stay in omaha over the course of my stay in omaha over the course of my stay in omaha somebody was following me somebody was following me somebody was following me and then how'd you catch them following and then how'd you catch them following and then how'd you catch them following it was it was it was i'm really i've got a really bad internal i'm really i've got a really bad internal i'm really i've got a really bad internal gps gps And this is 2002, 2003. And I was driving on this country road, and I came to a triple fork, and I was supposed to take the left fork, but I took the middle fork, and it was a long, dirt road. And then I hit my brakes, turned around, and then there was like a gray sedan behind me, maybe 100 yards behind me, 75 yards behind me, that hit its brakes. So then I found what I was looking for, and then it was a victim. I talked to him for a while, and then when I was driving back to Omaha, there wasn't any subtlety involved. That guy was right on my tail, and I even hit my brakes a couple of times, and he was still on my tail, and then I got off on an exit. And he didn't follow me off on the exit. And then I stopped. That scared the shit out of you, though? Well, I stopped at a convenience store and bought two ice cream sandwiches. I deal with stress a lot of the time through ice cream sandwiches. And yeah, of course, you know, that's frightening. But after my second ice cream sandwich, I was ready to roll. So then I go back, and I'm staying with an old buddy of mine who isn't quite sure whether or not I've lost my mind. But then, so he called someone that was, for lack of a better word, he was an Herbalife distributor. Wait, like Herbalife, the company? Well, I mean, Herb is in. Oh, oh. So he was an Herbalife distributor. And my buddy was talking to him, and this guy broke down crying because of some traumatic things that he'd seen providing this particular network with weed, and I also think Coke. But then the last night I was at Omaha, and my buddy was living in an apartment complex. This crazy-looking woman came up to the door, and I was watching the History Channel. I can't remember exactly what I was watching. I was waiting for my buddy to come home, and we were going to cook dinner. He was going to cook dinner. I'm like, why should we cook? Well, I can be if I really try. Do you desperately need a nicotine pouch or coffee throughout the day just to stay awake? 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So unlike nicotine, that might only. help for 10 to 15 minutes, Ultra energy pouches deliver instant energy that lasts for 30 to 60 minutes. And these are truly clean, good-for-you pouches. Zero nicotine, zero calories, zero sugar, zero sketchy gas station chemicals. Ultra is the ultimate guilt-free pouch, delivering instant energy, mental clarity, and boosted mood, without nicotine, sugar, or calories. New customers can use code JULIAN to get 15% off at TakeUltra.com, that link is in my description below. Once again, that's TakeUltra.com, link in my description below, for 15% off using. code JULIAN. After you purchase, they're going to ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them I sent you. But, um, so this crazy-looking woman came to the door and said she wanted to give me a book. And by this time, I'm freaked out. I mean, I'm, it's, people are frightened to talk to me. I mean, it's like I'm doing an expose on the KGB in Stalinist Russia. Had you ever experienced anything like this on a story before? No. Yeah. No. Um, I once wrote a story where there was, uh, where I proved that there was a, a serial killer in Minneapolis killing prostitutes. And law enforcement had denied it prior to that. And then I put together this list, I mean, I, I put a lot of work into it, but I found like 38. Thirty-eight. That, yeah, that had been, been beaten, stabbed, or strangled. And I thought to myself, this is going to get published, and I'm going to out this serial killer. And, uh, I hope he doesn't take it personally. So, uh, so, but no, I'd never, I mean, I had been, I had hung out with the head of the Hells Angels. George? Uh, Sonny Barger. Oh, Sonny Barger at the time. And, uh. I've had George in here. Oh. Yeah. And, um, I'd been to the super max prison to interview the former boss of the case. The Casey crime family. So, I'd been through these somewhat harrowing things, but nothing, you know, prepared me for what went down in, in Omaha. And then I, I remember I got back, and I was freaked out. You know, the thing that freaked me out the most is that it was all true. That there was this pedophile network, and it was getting kids from Omaha, and it was flying kids to Washington, D.C. And it was. And there were parties for power brokers, and there would be blackmailed. Could we actually fill in those blanks for people out there who aren't familiar with the full process here? Obviously, that's the, like, 30,000 foot in the air view, but specifically, who was doing it, what, who they were then selling the kids to? I mean, it's obviously very sick shit, but. Yeah. So, this particular pedophile network, the epicenter was Omaha. And there were two primary pimps. One was Lawrence E. King of Omaha, Nebraska, and one was Craig Spence of Washington, D.C. And Craig Spence had a house, he was a CIA asset, and he had a house that was wired for audiovisual blackmail. I mean, just, just like Epstein. Yeah, and how did you know he was a CIA asset? Because there had been a number of reports that had said that he was, and plus, I went to one of the guys who, I don't know, I don't know. The guy who I trusted who had outed Spence as a CIA asset. What made you trust this guy, this source? Because I'd known him for a number of years. He was down in D.C., he was a reporter in D.C., and he had never bullshitted me. I mean, he, I, I, I trusted him. He was a journalist like you. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So anyway, Craig Spence had this house that was wired for audiovisual blackmail, and then the kids would be flown all over the country. But. But the, like, I acquired 200 flight receipts for, from that network. Because I scored the entire SEAL grand jury exhibits and testimony from one of the grand juries. They had the flight receipts in a grand jury and didn't bring charges? No. You can indict a ham sandwich in a grand jury. Yeah, yeah, I'll get into the ham sandwich. So I knew that there was this connection. Because I came, on my first trip. I came across a lot of documents very early on. And I had the good fortune. Actually, I came across a list that the investigator who died, he made a list of like 325 people, and there were 60 alleged victims on that particular list. So I knew that, and I, with Craig Spence, okay, so King and Spence ran this network. And Spence was definitely a CIA asset. I don't know, people have theorized that King was, but I couldn't find proof that King was a CIA asset. And they both started getting a lot of publicity. King got busted. He ran a credit union that was for lower socioeconomic people. In Nebraska. In Nebraska, in Omaha. And the credit union. And the credit union was supposed to have like $2.5 million in it. And actually, he stole $39, $40 million from it. That's nice. So, and it hadn't been audited in four years. And if you're a federally insured credit union, you have to be audited every year. Right. But it hadn't been audited in four years. So, and then Spence, the Washington Times was outing Spence's little blackmail operation. And it's a pretty famous headline. "Call Boys Took Midnight Tour of the White House." The Washington Times wrote this? Yeah. The like conservative outlet in DC? Yes, yes. Yeah. And they did some really good stories on this. And then, so Spence was getting a lot of publicity. And just like Maxwell and Epstein got sued. Well, and Epstein got a lot of publicity. Now, King was picked up in Omaha by federal marshals. And he was brought to the Capitol. A federal hospital, I guess he was possibly in the psychiatric ward. We'll never know. It's in Springfield, Missouri. There's your headline, by the way. There it is right there. A homosexual prostitution inquiry ensnares VIPs with Reagan-Bush. Callboys took midnight tour of White House. Yes. So both King and Spence were now getting a lot of publicity. And this is what happened to Epstein, too. If you're a blackmailer, you cannot blackmail people if people know that you're a blackmailer. They're going to stay away from you. That's right. So King and Spence lost their usefulness. And King was picked up just without any motions from the prosecution or defense and put in the psychiatric hospital that diagnosed him as delusional. And he was there because there were two grand juries that were used to cover up this, a federal and a state grand jury. And then Spence killed himself. He was in the Boston Ritz, and he was wearing a tuxedo. The Boston Ritz? Yeah. Ritz-Carlton. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he checked in, and he was wearing a tuxedo, and then he had a newspaper clipping about how that debated whether or not a CIA agent should be allowed to testify before grand juries or just testify because he was called by a grand jury. There was a grand jury that was investigating that. And I think Spence, and I think that Epstein might have been made a similar deal. Either you can kill yourself or we can kill you. The Frank Pantangeli kind of deal. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, yes. Frank Pantangeli is shitting. So Spence died. Now, King kept his mouth shut, and he did like 10 years in federal prison, and then he got out, and he had a no-show job waiting for him in Alexandria, Virginia. Now, why would they let a guy like that live? He's just a cog on their wheel. Why would they let him sit in a prison for 10 years, surrounded by a bunch of criminals that he might accidentally run his mouth to, and then get out and even hook him up with a nice job, you know, which is, you know, to kind of blackmail him off. But, like, why not just kill him? Well, I think that the deal was made. If you talk, we'll kill you. If you don't, we won't. And then we'll take care of you. And I think Maxwell was given a similar deal. When Maxwell gets out of prison, whenever that is, and it'll probably be before, and with the feds, you've got to do, like, 85% of the time. Yeah. So, when Maxwell. What was it? What was it? Tim Dillon? He's like, yeah, we can find a heartbeat in Iran, but we couldn't find fucking Ghislaine Maxwell in New Hampshire. So, yeah. I mean, that was very silly, what the feds did. But that was the Franklin scandal. And what really bothers me about that, and I spent seven years on that book, and now there were two grand juries that said that not a single child had been trafficked or even abused by these guys. So, wait. Just so I understand that, the grand juries, when you say they said that, it's because they declined to bring any charges whatsoever. That's. They indicted the victims. That wouldn't recant their accounts of their abuse. The grand juries indicted victims? Yes. Yeah. What? Yes. Did they end up going to trial? One of them did. Yeah. And she got nine to 15 years for perjury. For perjury for saying that she was abused? Molested, yeah. So, it was boys and girls that were getting molested? Yeah. Mostly boys, but yeah, girls too. And the authorities really tried to destroy her. They put her in solitary confinement for about two years. I think. Maybe I'm misremembering this, but you remember the Brian Banks case, Steve? The number one overall high school linebacker, if we could Google that. He was. So, this kid was like the number one recruit in the country. His senior year, some girl accused him of rape. He went to prison for like six years, which ended his career. And he was let out of prison and exonerated because she lied. And if I'm not mistaken, was she ever even tried for that? I don't think she was. Alicia Owen is the woman's name. Alicia Owen? Owen. Owen. Yeah, let's look her up as well. Yet, a little girl who makes an accusation against grown-ass men that clearly had a lot of evidence here, when the grand jury refuses to bring charges against that, they double whammy it. And the prosecutors bring in another grand jury or whatever, maybe the same one, to then indict her for that. Okay, so here's how that worked out. The first grand jury was. Well, they were both dog and pony shows. But the first grand jury went in for months. And the prosecutor. I don't know if your audience is familiar with how grand juries work, but a special prosecutor is chosen to oversee a grand jury. And he or she shows the prosecutors the evidence that he or she deems important. And calls the witnesses that he or she deems. Shows the jury. What's that? Shows the jury, right? Yeah. And grand jurors are just people that have shown up for jury duty. So, the special prosecutor of a grand jury, there's that famous quote, could get a grand juror to indict a ham sandwich. Yep. And what they did. And this also happened with Epstein's grand jury, too, that ruled he and Melissa had a single job. That happened in Florida. Where? What year was that? It was, I think, 2006. So, that was a separate grand jury from the one that did end up bringing charges? Or are you talking about the same one. I'm talking about Epstein very early on, during his first bust. But with this. There were two grand juries. There was a state grand jury and a federal grand jury in Nebraska. Okay. And both of them declared that not a single child had been abused. And Alicia Owen and Paul Benassi were indicted for perjury. Alicia was given eight counts of perjury and Paul Benassi was given three counts. Yeah. Here it is. 1993, August. So, this is the appeals where she's appealing, I guess, her sentence or being found guilty. The trial lasted five weeks. The record contains over 4,000 pages of trial testimony, 182 exhibits, including approximately 11 hours of videotaped testimony of Alicia. Included in the exhibits are more than 1,000 pages of testimony from a previous grand jury proceeding related to Owens' perjury trial. Having reviewed the foregoing, we present a summary of the facts relevant to the issues on the appeal. Can you go all the way down to the bottom? Obviously, they denied. We can't get it because it's behind a paywall. Okay. But that. Wow. That's. So, Alicia was looking at eight counts of perjury. So, she was looking at 160 years. 160 years for perjury. Yeah. What? What? In Nebraska, at that point, one count of perjury could get you 20 years. Jesus Christ. And then the feds indicted her on eight counts of perjury. And that's five years, Max. So, she was looking at 200 years. This is a girl that had been trafficked in her adolescence. And she was, I think, 19, 20 years old. So, she was looking at 200 years in prison. And the FBI. Had told all these victims that if you talk, you're going to jail for perjury. The FBI told them that? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the FBI. I mean, both the Department of Justice and the FBI teamed up to make sure that this thing went away. And Alicia went. So, the federal grand jury was a backstop because Alicia had to be found guilty. To sanctify the grand jury that said that no one had been molested. And then they just barely got Alicia. That jury was deliberated for about three days. So, they got Alicia by the skin of their teeth. Somebody walked in with a gun. So, they dropped the perjury charges against Paul Benassi and then put Alicia away. What happened to Paul? Well, he ultimately. He was also in prison. And he ultimately got out and he's married and has three kids and lives a pretty productive life. I take it you've seen True Detective before? I have indeed. Yeah. So, that first season in particular is the greatest season in the history of TV of anything. But I want to get the creator, Nick Pizzolatto, on here. So badly because, you know, that came out in January 2014. He wrote it, I guess, in like 2011, 2012, 2013. That came from somewhere. Well, I called him up one day and asked him if he'd want to work with me. Oh, really? And he said that he only wanted to do fiction. But actually, there's a. The Franklin scandal is mentioned, I think, in season two of True Detective. So, yeah. they were definitely primed on what I wrote, I believe. Wow. That's wow. And I went back to Nebraska, I think, 12 times. Over that seven-year period. Yeah. And then I went to Washington, DC a couple of times. I think about this a lot with anyone working any kind of story, whether it's dark or something just historical, whatever it might be. But you live in New York, you've lived in New York for 31 years. So at that time, you were already well underway being a New Yorker and all that. And you're going to Omaha, Nebraska in the middle of the country. And you're going outside Omaha as well to track down all these different victims. You're in these smaller places. And it's almost like I picture a guy like you, especially as you start to peel the onion away and get closer to like, holy shit, what am I looking at here? It's almost like you're this speck in the middle of this whole other world. And maybe you have a moment there at some point where you just, I don't know, standing out on that dirt road alone. And you're like, holy shit, this seems like the most relaxed, laid back, innocent kind of place. Yet the darkest shit ever happened right where I'm standing. Did you have a moment like that? Well, I had been through Omaha twice before. And it just looked like a bunch of fat, happy, white people. And- And I mean, that's, one wouldn't think that. But I think Oscar Wilde said of art, go below the surface at your own risk. And I believe that there's a lot of networks at any given time. Now, some of those networks might be just hooked up to the cops. Some of them actually might be hooked up to the feds. I know in Minneapolis, there's this thoroughfare where a lot of the prostitutes walk. It's called Lake Street. And the cops tell the prostitutes that they like, or the prostitutes that service them, we're going to have a dragnet on Friday night. And everybody on the street is going to get rounded up and arraigned. So, I mean, that's law enforcement collusion. Well, that's a good point. And I think it's a good point. I think it's a good point. With criminality. So I think that, but yes, one wouldn't think that such darkness would lurk under Omaha, Nebraska. But the thing about Omaha, Nebraska, and this is what makes it very different, Strategic Air Command is located outside of Omaha, Nebraska. Strategic Air Command? That is the brain of our national defense. That's where they took Bush after 9-11. Right. Yeah. So, and I've been told- I've been told by actually two sources that Omaha has the second highest concentration of CIA of any place in the country, only to Langley. Just because that part, our defense system has to make sure, or the people in charge of our defense system, have to make sure that nobody infringes upon Strategic Air Command. See, that's okay. But- But the other shit- But there's a lot, I think there's a lot of illegal stuff that goes on there. Can we talk about the most underrated organ in your body? It's your liver. 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Well, the people that ran the Franklin Network started to use her as a. as in Child Abuse material when she was like nine or ten. And then the other guy had been through Boys Town, and. Boys Town? Yeah. What's Boys Town? It's the most famous iconic orphanage in the world. It's really. It's the most famous orphanage in the world. In Omaha? Yeah, it's outside of Omaha. And they were using this as a sourcing place? Yeah, there was. At that point, Omaha or Boys Town was a smorgasbord for pedophiles. And it's. It's mind-boggling, because I've talked to a number of Boys Town kids that were recruited out of. out of Boys Town. How. Well, obviously, they were completely forced into it, their kids, but. Well, what did they. How did it work? What did. What did they tell you? Okay, so the number. The number one guy at Boys Town, Monsignor Hupp, he was a drunk. And the number two. And he wasn't a pedophile. He wouldn't have made deals with pedophiles, but he was a drunk. He was pretty disconnected. He was kind of a titular head, and. The number two guy, James Kelly, he was a pedophile. And he'd molest. Yeah. He'd molested a number of kids in New York, upstate New York. And the Catholic Church, in its infinite wisdom, put him in Boys Town. So, I believe that. That there was a deal made where Father. And Kelly molested a lot of kids, but I think that he was also. Because someone had to give these kids privileges. They were flown to D.C. and all over. Someone had to give these kids privileges to get out of. Get out of Boys Town. And I think it was Kelly. So, that's how. And all they really needed was that one guy. Just one guy. Just to get access. And. But there were other people that were involved, too, with Boys Town. And the money. It was all about the money. Who were the other people? People that. So, with Boys Town, they've got, like, individual houses where the kids stay. And it's supposed to be, like, the family teachers. So, it's supposed to be, like, a household. Now, I've told that family teachers were also involved. And what I found really disturbing was, it seems. Now, I can't prove this, that kids that didn't have parents or parents that really looked after them were much more susceptible to being trafficked than other kids. Sure. I mean, it's an orphanage. They don't have. Yeah. But, you know, we are talking kids from very lower socioeconomic backgrounds. And you've given them $500, and they'll do a lot of different things for $500. So, they're paying the kids, literally. They're. Well, there's money and there's drugs. Those are the carrots. So, they would go in and drug them with. Are we talking, like, date rape drugs kind of thing? No, no. Drugs were, like, the carrot. But if you perform well, you know, you can have drugs or. Oh, so they'd be like, okay. Yeah. Yeah. And with one. So, we're getting back. The woman that was the private detective that found two people for me that I wasn't able to find, she had traced a drug ring to Offutt Air Force Base, which is part of STRATCOM. And according to her, she was taken for a ride. She was taken for a ride in a van and beat up really badly and then pushed out of the van onto a highway. So, you can get away. When something is that insular, you can get away with a lot of criminality. Now, with. So, she found a girl named Shanetta Moore. that I had documentation. And she found a guy named Rue Fox. And I've been looking for Rue forever. And this was towards the end of my investigation. And these are victims, like you said. Yeah. And Rue, OK, so the detective told me, you know, Rue's got a sleeve that's, you know, a mile long, violent, a record, a criminal record that's a mile long. And he's really violent. So be careful. And so I called up Rue and I said, Rue, my name's Nick Bryant. I'm a journalist. I'm working on a story. I'd like to talk to you. And he goes, you're a cop. And I go, no, no, I'm not a cop. I'd like to meet with you. And I go, I'm not a cop. He goes, I'll meet with you. But if you're a cop, I'm going to snap your neck. And so he chose this dive bar in Omaha. The kind of bar where people. People drink until they die. I mean, it might be they might die tomorrow. They might die next year. They might die in five years. But they're there to drink and die. So I'm there drinking a cranberry juice. And that doesn't taste quite right. And I'm thinking that I might need some antibiotics. But anyway, my piccadillos aside. And then Rue comes in with two friends. And Rue, he was in prison for a number of years. And he is pumped up. He's like a human pit bull. And he goes, back here. And I went to shake his hand. He goes, back here. So there was a room in the back of the bar that was completely vacant. So it was Rue and his two friends and me. And he thrusts me up against the wall. And it's kind of a weird thing. You know, I did see where the exit sign was. Little. Late for that. Well, I mean, if. And Rue was the biggest and meanest of the three of them. If worse came to worse, I was going to hit Rue with my best shot and then go out the exit. But I didn't. It was kind of weird. You know, he thrusts me against the wall. And he goes, are you a cop? And I said, no, I'm not a cop. And he said, prove it that you're not a cop. So I had my backpack with me. And I pulled out the documentation on him that had linked him to this network. From Boys Town. To prove that you're not a cop? That would. I mean, my red blinker would be going off saying cop if I saw that. Well, there was a lot of documentation in my backpack. So and he told me. And I told him exactly what I was doing. And so we sat down. I kept buying him and his buddies pictures of beer. And then he needed a ride. He was shooting crystal meth and drinking. Cheap vodka every morning. And so I gave him a ride to where he was. I believe he was going to cop crystal meth. And then, you know, and then I called him up and he kept on saying, man, you opened up the wrong door. You opened up the wrong door. He was a 12 year old. And Lawrence King, one of the pimps, had molested him and gave him a bunch of stitches. And that was. Covered up. Gave him a bunch of stitches. Yeah, sodomized him. So he endured that when he was 12 years old. And then he became this big violent guy. Now, hold on a minute. He obviously. Something like that threw his whole life off, as we can tell. And I mean, who could blame him? But like, I would think I'm just playing basic psychology here. I would think. I would think. I would think a really big drug abusing, you know, angry, at this point, criminal, very ripped up guy might react a certain way if you're bringing up the most traumatizing moment of his life. The most horrific nightmare he's ever had. And he didn't, like, punch you? No, you know, the thing is, I'd interacted with a bunch of victims at this point. Rue was, like, the last victim. The last victim that I actually found. And I, yeah, people have a, I try to conduct myself with integrity. And I think people can pick up that. And with Rue, he didn't, I mean, so here's what happened with Rue. You know, I called him up a couple of times. And he kept on saying, you opened the wrong door. You opened the wrong door. And then I was about to split Omaha and come back to New York. And I thought, I'm going to try Rue one last time. And I was worried. I was really worried that that rage and wrath was going to be directed at me. But I had to give it a shot. I mean, I'd found him. It took me a long time to find him. And I had to give it one last shot. So I got to him after he had shot up some crystal meth and drinking a pint of vodka. He was working on a car in his father's backyard. Rue had a father? Yeah, who was dying. But he was in the boys' home? Rue had done a lot of, his father had done a lot of time also. So, yeah. And I said, hey, Rue, how you doing? You know, ready to run a, you know, 4-1-40 if I had to. I said, Rue, how you doing? He goes, you know, I've been thinking about talking to you about what happened to me. So this is after the bar meeting? Yeah. Yeah. And two phone calls where he was very pugilistic on the phone. So, or acerbic. And I said, well, yeah, well, that'd be great, Rue. I mean. If you want to talk to me. And so he was working on this car and I was his, like, gopher. And his buddies came over and I was, like, the gopher. I'd, you know, get him parts. I'd get him McDonald's. You know, whatever they wanted, you know. And then at a certain point, I took Rue to the hotel where I was staying. And we started to talk. And here was this big. Scary dude. Who just broke down crying. And. That 12 year old. That had been so damaged. By these. Malignant people. Came out. That that armor. That. That ferocity. That was the armor that he wore. And. He took it off for that interview. And basically, I was interviewing a 12 year old kid. That was. What? That was very damaged. When he was it off. Right. When he got there. How long did you have to talk to him before it just totally broke? He started crying pretty quickly. I mean, he. He wanted to talk. He'd never talked to anybody about this. And there were some people that really wanted to talk to me and because I had a list of 60 alleged victims put together by that investigator, and some of them really wanted to talk to me and I some of them would never talk to me and they were hard to find a lot of these kids were really, really hard to find because they're not like they're they're like Rue they've lived this subterranean lifestyle and they don't generally well, a lot of times they're not used to it. They don't use a social security number, so they're hard to find. Why don't they use a social security number? Because they're involved in illegal activities. Yeah, I. I can't I can't imagine, especially like because his whole life went totally off the rails as a result of all the things that happened to him. And he knows that like deep down. He did. Yeah. And then to realize that something like that went. That those people were not only doing it, but they were probably doing it at the behest of other people. I mean, that network was protected by state law enforcement and federal law enforcement. So it's a lot. You know, Epstein is a carbon copy of the Franklin scandal. Why did they, in your estimation, before we get to Epstein? Why do powerful people in places use this? Why did they use sexual abuse of children as a main ring to get what they want? Well, child abuse is in every strata. There are child traffickers. Like Jeffrey Epstein living in a mansion. mansion on the Upper East Side. There are child traffickers living in a trailer park on the outskirts of Kansas City. I mean, predators are all around us. But the predators that we're talking about with the Franklin scandal and also with Epstein, those predators are protected because they're compromised. And I've used this analogy a number of times over the years. Because when I first talked to that blackmail photographer, I was trying to get my mind around all this. How does this work? You don't really read about it in a book. I mean, now you can, but prior to my book, you couldn't really read about it. And he said, once you're compromised, it's like you're on a yacht. And it's a beautiful yacht. And it's a beautiful day. And you can have anything you want on the yacht. But if you decide to get off the yacht, the people on the yacht are going to make sure that you drown. So people that are politicians that are blackmailed like this, they're going to go along to get along. Because if footage of their perversions was released, that'd be the end of them. You're saying that there's a psychological thing that happens where they go, oh, fuck. I'm caught. And they're upset about it. But then their captor goes, no, no, no. We're your friends. Don't worry. You're just going to work with us now. And it's all good. And then they give them the best food, give them the best amenities and all that. And they begin to actually like the people that hold something over them. Well, they become those people. Right. And I'll give you a couple of examples. Dennis Hastert was Speaker of the House for, six years or so, seven years. Now, there was a FBI whistleblower named Sabelle Edmonds who had said that Hastert had a shadow life. And with Hastert, some years after he got out of politics, he was busted. And here's the thing. He was a wrestling coach in high school, and he had molested I guess a number of young men. And one of them was blackmailing Hastert. And the FBI arrested Hastert instead of the blackmailer. So for some reason, Hastert got off the yacht. And I think that he got too greedy. He was making millions and millions of dollars as a lobbyist. And I think that he thought, well, I'm Dennis Hastert, Speaker of the House. And I think he forgot that he was on the yacht. I mean, that's what I think. And then there's Larry Craig. He was in DC for 25 years. And first as a representative from Oregon, and then as a, or Idaho, and then as a senator. And I wrote a book called Confessions of a DC Man, The Politics of Sex, Lies, and Blackmail. And I wrote it with a guy who ran a gay escort service in DC. And the CIA assets would use his gay escorts to compromise people. So- The CIA assets would? Yes. Yes. Meaning not direct case officers and stuff, but people that- Assets, yeah. Shared information with them. So this guy, his name is Larry Craig, and he was a senator. And so he was getting escorts from Henry Vincent, who I wrote the book with. But then there was a documentary that came out called Outrage. And it was about how gay politicians or closet politicians vote against gay politicians. Gay rights. And Craig had one of the worst records. And the makers of that, the director was Kirby Dick. The maker of that documentary, he found other escorts that had been with Craig that weren't provided by Henry Vincent. And ultimately what happened to Craig was he was in a bathroom in New York City. And this is a US senator. And he got arrested. And I'm from Minneapolis. I go there once a year for Thanksgiving. And I was in a stall sitting on a commode, and someone was slapping their foot on the ground. That's the signal that Craig must have, you know, that triggered Craig. But someone was slapping their foot on the ground. And I mean, really hard. And I had no, I had no idea. I thought they had a neurological disorder. And I'm just, I'm just fortunate that I didn't say, could I help you? Yeah, there have been some coming through the hole in the fucking stall. So it's not that difficult to compromise these guys and get them on the yacht. I mean, when a political system is as compromised as ours, or has people that are as compromised as ours, we end up with the kind of leaders that we're ending up with. Yep. I think there's really something to be said for that. And I don't think, like if people deny that at this point, they're not facing reality. I think for a long time, especially in the pre-social media era, which is when you were working on this story, by the way, you know, and the pre-internet era, obviously before that, these things, it was much easier to cover them up. Because there couldn't be some, you know, late night commenter making a post that went viral because people go, what the fuck, you know, and they could just kind of shove things under the rug. And for a long time, there was a very easy way to compromise powerful people. And it was using their worst weaknesses against them. And I go so far as to think that they kind of, there's a certain type of person they target to put into those offices. Like they know, they know this kind of person's, you know, whether it's going to be someone who's a molester or someone like the guy Swalwell, who, you know, he's a molester. And he's a molester. And he's a molester. You know, it was just raping women, you know, like, as far as I know, they were of age, but, you know, nonetheless, the allegations are that he was, he was a serial sexual offender. Like there's a type of person they want in there. From what I've seen, there is the, the personality type that ends up in Washington, DC is very similar to the personality type that ends up in Hollywood. Hmm. Highly, highly predatory. Highly predatory. Yeah. I'm gonna need some more water. Oh, yeah. I got you right here. That's, that's interesting. I mean, there's things that people would have said, including with the Franklin scandal, by the way, I believe when that, I mean, you even pointed out they were charging the victims just for making their claims. But when it came out and got any attention, it was called a giant hoax. And I think publicly even assessed that way. And I think what we've seen is that, you know, there's a lot of people who have said, you know, they're like, well, I don't know. I don't know if it's true. It's not to say every single claim that's ever been made about anything ever, therefore is true. But in the last 10 years, especially, we've seen so many things that people would have or actually did laugh away as like, yeah, no way. Suddenly be proven as, wow, that's at least a lot more true than false, or in some cases, exactly what we thought it was. And the Franklin scandal is one of those things that it's like, you were also early on in your life. And you're like, well, I don't know. I don't after it had been called a hoax but before anyone was really talking about it and sounds like it's it's unfortunately aging well well the thing about it is when the franklin scandal got published i i live in new york city i live in the mecca of publishing and i had a bunch of friends that weren't publishing and some one of them was like a superstar journalist who i'd known from minneapolis and no one wanted to touch this story when did you first start trying to sell it a few years into the investigation probably about 2004 yeah and no one would touch it no one would touch it but i was saying that the government was covering up child trafficking and child molestation and people weren't ready for that message they weren't ready for it and then people would google it and wikipedia has really done the franklin scandal a major disservice because there are wikipedia editors that have locked that page down you cannot make any kind of changes to that page and it reads nonsensical yeah it's the cia of pda yeah yeah so um i'm i'm glad you know that because that page is and there was a uh a production company that optioned the franklin scandal and they've made a lot of movies really good movies and i was having lunch with the president one day and when is this this was i don't know probably 10 years ago or so oh so after true detective yeah they optioned it well he read it and he was blown away by it i mean the franklin scandal is really really well sourced and meticulous and so they optioned it and then he told me because they he he and other people and one was an emmy award winning uh producer they they had tried to sell it we'd worked very hard on trying to sell it And no one would touch it. And he said before, he said to me, as long as that Wikipedia page is going to be the way it is, you're never going to be able to sell that and sell it in Hollywood because people in Hollywood don't. Now, he didn't say this, but people in Hollywood don't read. And I'll give you an example. Right after the Franklin scandal was published, I was short on funds. I really thought I could go to Hollywood. I networked. I thought I could – I had like three meetings a day. How did you end up getting it published, by the way? Who published it? A small press in Oregon published it, trying to – and they're the kind of the last house on the left for anybody that wants to publish a book. Okay. So they get it published. You go out to Hollywood. And I'm pitching it. I'm pitching it as a documentary. I'm pitching it as a – I'm pitching it as a narrative movie, a feature film. And I had a buddy that was – he was one of the young Turks in Hollywood, but his career kind of ran afoul because of drug addiction. But he knew a bunch of young executives that had juice, and I met with one of them. They were kind of partners. I met with one of them, and we met at a coffee shop. I gave him the book. And, you know, we talked, and he could see that I was sane. And then about three days later, I get an email from my buddy who has run afoul because they've looped him into their conversation. And they're discussing what's true about the Franklin scandal and what's not true about the Franklin scandal. And neither one had read it. That's what we're dealing with in Hollywood. How long was the book? It's – if you take – there was a lot of documents that we put in it because some of those documents are just so mind-blowing. But it's – I think it's around 500 pages. Yeah. There are a lot of things with you and your story in reporting that are reminiscent of Tom O'Neill and his journey during chaos. You guys have a very similar background, and it's the same kind of thing. In the sense that you both started on a little weed, you know, like, that you're pulling on. Like, oh, this is interesting. And then it balloons into this whole thing once the dam gets broken. And you both ended up basically sacrificing long periods of your career to do this against all odds when it was not also, as it would turn out especially, financially smart for you to do so because so many people would turn it down. Whether it be for features or just in general, like, even to fucking publish the thing. And I think it's pretty amazing that the two of you in your separate story, his case obviously dealing with the Manson murders and all the downstream effects of that, and you dealing with Franklin's scandal and eventually Epstein, you know, have both been vindicated in the long term in a lot of ways. Well, you know, I've got this funny notion that a lot of people in publishing and the media don't have, and it kind of surprised me. I believe that children shouldn't be molested with impunity. You know, it's a good notion. Yeah. Yeah. And I've met many people through the years that do not share my belief in that area. I'm not really aware of any major media that's come out and said we need justice for the Epstein victims. The mainstream media is very good at mass producing salaciousness, but they're really, really bad when it comes to. Demanding justice for the victims. Is it in your estimation, having been to a lot of these places as well and spoken with a bunch of these people over the years, do you think it's because a lot of the people that are actually in mainstream media genuinely don't give a fuck about the worst kinds of abuse? Or do you think it's because the space is totally captured by interest where they don't even have a say in the matter? So I think it's a little bit of both. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In that case, Chris Hedges was a superstar at the New York Times, won a Pulitzer Prize. Chris Hedges? Yeah. And he knew, he told me that, and I believe this, a number of people knew that when Bush came out with that Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction, a lot of people knew it was bullshit. And I mean, it was being deconstructed almost in real time on the Internet. And he said the emperor has no clothes. And he got fired. He got fired for that. Chris Hedges. Let's pull that up. Good for him. He stood on business. The New York Times fired him because he said, I think they're wrong. Well, yeah. I mean, it was very obvious to all of them. What did he tell you made it obvious at the time? I mean, it's very obvious now, but like when he saw it while it was happening. He was reporting in the Middle East. So he knew he was pretty plugged into that area. And then there, a friend of mine was an editor at a large magazine, and he's a free thinker. And the people that worked at that magazine were on a reservation that they didn't even know they were on. Their minds were, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So myopic that, and they didn't even know that. Imagine that, being so in your own world that you don't even know that you're Truman. I mean, his boss didn't believe that there was blackmail going on with the Epstein case. I mean, that's how naive she was. Your friend. My friend's boss. Yeah. And then my friend would. Would like submit an article by me like once a year or so. And I wrote a book about Watergate. You did. At the heart of Watergate is a CIA honey trap. That's how I got turned on to the underside of the Watergate story. When did you write that book? It came out a couple of years ago. Okay. Two or three years ago. It's a good book. Yeah. I might check it out. So I had a lot of evidence. I had a lot of evidence that Bob Woodward is a pathological liar or serial liar. I don't know the difference, but he lies a lot. And I've nailed him in his Watergate reporting. He lies a lot. Can you explain some of the things he would lie about? Well, he said that there was this omniscient source, Deep Throat. Yeah, Deep Throat. That gave him all this information. And Deep Throat, Mark Felt, who is a. Yeah. Who he said was Deep Throat, could have given him some information, but there's no way. And then Woodward said that he would move the flower pot on his balcony, and that would signal Deep Throat to meet that night. And then Woodward would take all these cabs and things like that, and they'd meet at a parking lot in Virginia. So Mark Felt, during this period, had been fired by the FBI. And he wasn't. Mark Felt wasn't revealed until he died, I believe, right? Yeah, after he had Alzheimer's. And like I said, I'm sure he gave Woodward some information. So we're supposed to believe that the dude drove into Washington, D.C. every day and looked at Woodward's balcony. But here's the thing about Woodward's balcony. It was in the back of the building. It was facing like a courtyard. So you would have to drive into the alley and get out of your car and walk probably about 60 feet and look directly up. Or he had a trap house across the way. Yeah. And then if Deep Throat wanted to contact Woodward, he would put on a certain page of the New York Times, he'd put a clock there about at the time that they wanted to meet. A clock so he would draw a clock and leave the Times at his front porch? Yeah, yeah. Okay. But at that apartment building, everybody, all the New York Times were put into a pile. And everybody just got. So there's so much lying. And Alexander Haig was really the source that was the death knell. Who was Alexander Haig? He was Nixon's chief of staff. He didn't like Nixon. You know what's funny? We look at Watergate now. Yeah. And obviously, it was like this thing where there was lies and cover-ups and they literally broke in and stole some shit. But you compare it to the shit we have now, it's a Tuesday. I mean, Nick, a month and a half ago, the White House Situation Room tapes were leaked to the New York Times. Nobody's talking about it. That would be like a biblical scandal in any other era. But we are so inundated with. There is so much noise of such insane. no fucking way that's actually true, but oh my God, it's true. stories that something like watergate today i don't even know if it would make the front page watergate wouldn't even be a a blip right today and nixon actually listened to the court and surrendered the tapes i don't think any president recently would actually have surrendered the tapes so um would have listened to the court yeah and then they get then their attorney general would go in front of the fucking senate and be like yeah why are you breaking the law because we want to okay no further questions it's like what the fuck man well as i was saying earlier when you've got a lot of compromised people in the government you're gonna end up with the government that we have they're not so you had the weapons of mass destruction line mm-hmm no heads rolled you had the financial meltdown destroyed millions of americans millions of americans lesser no heads rolled that's right um covid well you had snowden's disclosures about how we're being illegally spied on no heads rolled and then you've got very strong evidence that you're not going to be able to do anything about it you're not going to be able to do anything that that virus came out of the wuhan lab no heads rolled and the usa id and the cdc were finding it and chances are it was gain of function no heads rolled so americans have to quit eating shit yes i mean as americans our government is destroying us and we have to quit eating shit and i think and and i i think that there's two factors involved with this i think that americans have been conditioned to believe that they can't affect change and americans have been conditioned to hate the other side the right thinks the left is mentally ill and the left thinks the right is mentally ill yes at this point i mean that's where it's descended to yes is uh so that's that's an easy divide and conquer between americans believing that they can't affect change and then this divide and conquer and and as long as we have that we're never going to be able to see democracy yeah i i get a little cynical about this i have to admit it and for a lot of the same reasons that you just laid out the one place where i'm like maybe there's a light at the end of the tunnel is the recent trend i've seen this year when the late and we'll talk about it obviously in a little bit but when the latest tranche of epstein documents dropped in the end of january and then when we went to a war with iran at the end of february there are now two major issues that the farthest ends of the spectrum on the left and the right whether they like this or not agree on i mean my show it's really unique in the sense that we have a really balanced audience which i think is so fucking cool but i will see back-to-back dms from people who are clearly hardcore liberal and then clearly hardcore conservative saying that maybe they say it a little different but saying the same things and i can't think of a time in the last decade where that was really the case and so i do wonder you talk about we have to stop eating shit i completely agree it's a great point and the cynic in me says people are still going to complain and then go home and watch their netflix and you know get on with life but there are enough people that even now sitting here in end of july beginning of august that are still pissed about this stuff that is now you know five six months old which in today's society apparently is very old that it's like maybe this is like the ember they just can't quite put out maybe this is a moment where we could have that do you think that's possible what makes the epstein issue dangerous to our man our leaders is that the right and the left can agree yes that children shouldn't be molested with impurity that's right i mean the right and the left can't agree on much but they can agree on this yep and i started an organization called epstein justice or a 501c3 and our goal is to get an independent congressional commission to investigate epstein and we're going to need a lot of people we're going to need a lot of help but an independent congressional commission can decouple itself from the political system what we see now in the political system we know that the current administration isn't going to indict anyone because of their epstein involvement i mean it's demonstrated that time and time again but then you've got the democrats having these quote-unquote shadow hearings where they're allowing these epstein co-conspirators to lie to them i mean i i'll give you an example uh les wexner said the last time he ever dealt with epstein was uh 2006 when they've got emails from 2008 and then epstein gave wexner 51 million dollars or 56 million dollars in 2011 now i don't care how rich you are you don't forget about 56 million dollars yep so we know that the current administration isn't gonna die but those democrats what they can do is put in referrals for indictments they could take that perjured testimony and put in referrals for indictments so it's at least on record so that individual is potentially can be prosecuted and they're not even doing that that's a dog and pony show and the only way and i believe this the only way we're going to get justice and i think we're going to get justice is if we don't get justice i think we can do it i think enough americans can come together on this is an independent congressional commission that that decouples itself from the political system as long as this is hooked up to the political system we're never going to have justice can you explain how that would work because when i hear that and i'm sure when a lot of people out there are hearing that they still hear congressional so it's still in the middle of dc it's still in the middle of the belly of the beast what's going to make this particular setup you have in mind different with independent congressional commissions investigations and other issues are also are farmed out to people that aren't government personnel like who like investigators uh wherever people's expertise whatever whatever that independent congressional commission is about a lot of times they're farmed out to people who are experts in that particular so people might think of like the mueller invested investigation though and be like well that that worked well no that was not that was not an independent congressional committee but he was a special prosecutor brought in separately and then it was a shit show right yeah yeah independent congressional commissions are okay so they require majority in the house and majority in the senate and i think that we can shame our politicians into giving us an independent because with mueller he was still connected to the political system of course whereas what we're proposing and this is the only way we're going to get any kind of justice is an independent congressional all right so let me ask you this i hate i'm sorry i hate to be cynical on this issue though i often do a cynical people i have to admit i i am just because of what we've seen but like they do that whoever gets appointed to help with that process whether it's three people or five people ten but whatever it is they're all humans they all got flaws and they all think they have constitutional rights until they start going to places that just aren't convenient for the people that decide who has constitutional rights and who doesn't and some of those people that get appointed to the commission that maybe someone like you successfully helps lobby to get you know gets put on it and then they get a call from someone with no pun intended a very deep-throated voice that says listen up you ain't finding shit here's what you're gonna do what stops that from happening well for example if i was on that commission i would make sure that it was to the letter of the law okay and there are other people like me i hate to be this guy but that's that's awesome but let's say you get named to that commission okay and you've proven your whole career that you're willing to investigate things all the way down to the detail which is incredible to be commended for that but what's to say the first day that you're not that you're named the head of that you know they don't say everything you ever loved is going to die if you don't do x y or z i have had a death threat and I've had a lot of strange phone calls actually I'm in the Epstein files I when I got the black book in 2011 I started calling victims first but then I started calling Epstein's inner circle and like who uh well the one that i got a hold of was sarah kellen i knew it and um and she wanted to commiserate with me how poorly the media had treated her and you know i wasn't really down with that so um our conversation wasn't very prolonged but it just so happens that someone sent an email their name is redacted to epstein's inner circle whose names aren't redacted there's this journalist nick bryant be aware of him this is what he looks like and they had a picture of me and that they uh dispensed so i thought that that and then actually there were three emails about me um one said alert and so obviously and can we pull that up deep on jmail.world but there are courageous people that will not back down from threats i mean there's a i've met a lot of them over the years yeah gary webb guys like that and then they end up dead well gary webb unfortunately i i have a chance to believe that he killed himself um he was bipolar and he drank a lot but there are tom o'neill is a guy that just hung in there for i mean he spent 20 years of his life on on chaos and um but i i've met a lot of courageous people over the years and it wouldn't be hard to get a number of courageous people together here you go october 11th 2011 12 24 p.m two unknown just a heads up there's a journalist calling around again his name is nick bryant this is what he looks like so you are all aware i guess they had your picture attached and then lv jet at aol.com responded yes thank you i told darren referring to darren indyke i assume yesterday he called me this is his cell number to look out for heads up i got the number off my caller id thanks then unknown responds again yep same number he called myself go ahead down deep is there more there that's it do we have any others i wonder who the unknown is there are two others um do you know who the unknown is right there i don't know okay i don't know it's interesting that it's unknown and then this one is labeled as redacted which i assume is just they made it in the gmail format but that means it was actually blacked out on the actual file so it says when is the fbi going to come clean as the subject header although this is from this is from 2025. so this is an email that went to epstein's email for some reason long after the fact is that fair to say d if i can't really yeah there um but there's a couple other emails where uh one of epstein's henchwoman is telling epstein to call me okay leslie groff go up leslie groff right there call list okay so to jeffrey epstein from leslie groff on october 11th at 3 51 p.m so it's three hours later after those first emails i believe if i have the date right it says bill shore saul woman mark packer chris knight barbro nick bryant and then i guess that's listing the the efta is the just the listing what document this was from in the files is that like a little is it also creepy to you to see this that like this dude knew you were looking into him and was looking back at you um i've been at this a long time here's how i look at it a couple ice cream sandwiches well actually i had one yesterday um but i wasn't stressed i'm gonna do what i'm gonna do yeah and my adversaries are gonna do what they're gonna do that's what i that's how i play the game of life what made did you want to be a journalist when you were growing up no not at all i took one journalism class in college and i thought it was the most boring thing i'd ever i i i studied philosophy in college yeah so what what happened how did you get into journalism and how did you get into journalism and how did you get into journalism and how did you end up here then well okay so i went to graduate school and i was recruited out of graduate school to write papers for lack of a better word that pertain to biomedical ethics biomedical ethics okay and there were academic papers and some of them were on fairly esoteric stuff like interstitial justice theory and which is a lot like game theory except it's uses words instead of numbers um and i also wrote a book when i was in academia and it pertained to lower socioeconomic children so that's something that i children is a topic that is near and dear to me i had a difficult childhood the first time i ran away i was 12 where you grew up in in minneapolis yeah i i i became kind of a street kid so what what what what made you a street kid so young um i had a stepfather that uh didn't appreciate me and he could be violent so children's issues i'm not you know i'd written a lot about children's issues before i ever started writing about this and um so i think it's funny when someone says well he's a conspiracy theorist well you know i've written all kinds of stuff about children's issues and i've never that have been published in very good journals and um i've never been accused of a conspiracy i've never been accused of being a conspiracy theorist um until you went to the things that they actually care about yeah that's right until the franklin scam so did you that's really cool though because you took your own personal experiences that were really tough for you and went out to find other kids who through different lenses may have had really difficult experiences to see if you could shed light on that and help prevent it for more in the future well i mean the first time i ran away i was 12 and i'm glad i didn't get very far because 12 year olds i was very susceptible to being preyed upon sure by the time i was 14 or 15 i was cynical and i was fairly big so i didn't really worry about where'd you run when you were 12 i made it to the highway and uh i was walking along the highway i didn't know about hitchhiking but i knew i had to get out of the house that night out of self-preservation what what what happened um my stepfather was beating me up in a living room and my mother said that he shouldn't hit me with a closed fist and then i i went well you know i'm not i'm not safe here in this environment so that's when i took off but getting back to your question i so i i really i i took these journalism one journalism class i thought was really boring why'd you think it was boring it just was and um i i love philosophy i love philosophy and i'd take philosophy classes because i found them very very interesting what was interesting about them um to come across thinkers like plato or aristotle i'm i'm a i'm a kantian kant is uh i mean when you talk about great philosophers you've got you can start out with plato and aristotle and then i think that jump would probably be kant as far as the greatest philosopher what made him so great he emmanuel kant there there was a movement in philosophy called rationalists and rationalists said that we can discern the truth we we we have like the capacity to discern the truth and then there was the empiricist that said you can only discern the truth by measure uh things that you you need an empirical validation so what kant did is he combined the two and he said that we've got these innate mechanisms mental mechanisms but to to validate it we we also need empirical which gives us the ability to empirically and evaluate something so kant took the rationalists and the empiricists were were very different camps and was able to combine them and i in the book i wrote when i was in academia i used a lot of kantian um morality kant's morality is there's a utilitarian morality which is the most good for the most people and if you're a jew in germany utilitarian morality doesn't really or ethics doesn't really work that well for you right now kant said he came out with a categorical imperative and he said if you make an action or a statement, quantify that to the rest of the human race and see if there's a contradiction. If you kill someone, if everybody killed everybody, then there would be nobody to kill. So that would be contradictory. So basically it's Kant's formula for the golden rule. And his philosophy just blew me away. I had lived with an Indian guru when I was 19, and a genuine Indian guru. And what we learned there is that there's two realities. There's the reality that we see, which is an illusion. And then there's then there's reality um true reality now kant would say that there are two realities there's the phenomenological reality that what we see and actually a whole uh a whole philosophy has kind of predicated on phenomenology what kind i mean I mean, a lot of the philosophy goes back to Kant, one way or the other. But what Kant said is that what we see is the phenomenological reality, but what's inside is the noumenal reality that we cannot perceive. So that really rang true to me because I'd studied Eastern philosophy when I lived with this guru when I was 19, and I really do believe that that's the case. is that what we see is really just a very small portion of what the reality is. Take this glass. E equals mc squared. This glass has that mass. c equals mc squared is like 300 000 meters per second so squared is like 900 000 meters per second okay so this glass has the energy of 900 000 meters per second and it just looks like a glass right to us but this this glass could power new york for for quite some time it has it has the energy to empower to power new york for quite some time so when you and that's that's that's einstein's special relativity and so i'm a proponent of einstein he wasn't a very good father and uh he wasn't a very good husband but a hell of a physicist kind of like oj simpson um a hell of a running back but not a very good father or um or husband oh that's such a stray that's such a stray einstein's catching right there so and and i'd always believe that and then i read kant and he explained that to me why why we just see the phenomenological realm compared to the thing in itself the new he called that the numeral realm so i was i yeah i just i was blown away by by emmanuel khan his philosophy and you didn't particularly you like the philosophy and you didn't particularly like the journalism class but then you start writing these biomedical ethics papers for someone i forget who i was actually employed by the university of minnesota medical school okay for those but here's the thing here's what happened um you know i was writing these esoteric papers and people in academia would read them they were good papers i had a bunch of papers published and towards the end i had a book published um but they were very abstract i mean you you would need you know almost like a phd to to understand them and then there was a woman who ran an organization in minneapolis who said that serial killers that there was a serial killer killing prostitutes and in minneapolis and she was kind of crazy so the media didn't listen to her and law enforcement didn't listen to her but then i knew someone who knew someone that was a prostitute and she had said that there was a serial killer killing prostitutes. And we were talking about this earlier. So I went to work. I got this long list of women that had been beaten, stabbed, or strangled. And it wasn't their name. It was when they were born and how they died and on the date that they died. And then I went to the databases of the Star Tribune, Minneapolis Star Tribune and St. Paul Pioneer Press. And I put that information in. And then the article would come up about a woman. So I put together, I believe, 38 women that have been stabbed, strangled, or beaten to death in the previous like eight years. And I had the list. And I went to the Minneapolis police and I said, are you sure you want to say that there's no serial killer? And they thought, well, yeah, I don't know, maybe, I don't know. And then I went to the St. Paul police, head of homicide, and I said, are you sure you want to say there's no serial killer? And he said, well, you know, there could be. And then a task force was formed to catch that serial killer. How old are you when this is happening? I was about 32, 33. So, yeah, 34. So I write this one article. I've been writing academic papers for five years and nothing is getting done. And then I write this one article and then a task force is formed. And that led me to journalism. It couldn't have been that long after that when you came into the Franklin scandal story, right? Well, I moved to New York City in 1995 to pursue just a freelance journalism career. And then I stumbled across that finder's report and started digging into Franklin's scandal when I was in 2002. And you were traveling a bunch to Omaha to cover that story and then coming back to New York and writing up your research and trying to put together what eventually became the book. Yes. Okay. So you get the book published eventually by a publisher out in Oregon because no one would take it. And you're still living in New York City. And I mean, that's also crazy too, because you were sacrificing yourself financially for so long even to be able to still stay in new york city with all that you said it was in 2011 though when you got a hold of the black book is that right yeah the franklin scandal was actually published in 2009 2010 um there's if you look at the first page it says 2012 or something because We made some changes to it, but it was published 2009, 2010. And I was really in dire straits financially because I put all this money and time into writing this book. the reality that we don't see. And then there's the reality that we don't see. And then there's this And we couldn't give them away because the fact that the government would cover up a child trafficking network was anathema to people. If you cover up a crime, you aid and abet that crime. So the fact that our government would aid and abet child sex trafficking, that was not a message people wanted to hear. But what I saw happening in Florida was very similar to what was happening in Omaha because there were a number of girls that came forward at that point and a grand jury declared that not a single child had been abused. And I've since acquired that grand jury testimony. And Lana Belalovic, she was a special prosecutor. What she did was just malignant. She called two of the victims. The law enforcement was aware of multiple victims. They were aware of over 40. Well, at that point, the feds, yeah, when the feds got in. So she called two. One had been 14 when she was molested by Epstein. she was now 60 and one had been was 16 she'd been molested multiple times by epstein she was now 18 and she just destroyed them and really really you can go to epsteinjustice.com i do a takedown of that how did she destroy them she called in uh law enforcement people that just undermined their credibility. How'd they do that? Saying that they were on drugs and, you know, that type of thing. Real quick, Nick, when did you, because obviously this was all going on in 05, 06, 07, 08, 09, Epstein's case. When did you first hear about it at all? Do you remember what year that was? I was still working on the Franklin scandal. Right. So maybe like 07, 08? Yeah, could have been 08, 09. And then I called up someone at the Palm Beach Post, and I tried to talk to her about it. Actually, I made a few calls, and she just couldn't explain it. And I thought to myself, well, you know, I mean, the guy molested all these girls. And the grand jury said that he hadn't molested any girls. I mean, don't you think this requires a little more investigation? And she didn't seem to be willing to. She just said, well, this is kind of an anomaly. It's kind of weird. It's an anomaly. Yeah. I'm using my terminology. Yeah, yeah. But basically she said, yeah, it's an anomaly. We just. So. So you start looking at it, though, in concert with what you were doing with the Franklin scandal. Yes. And you feel like it's the same thing. Well, with the Franklin scandal, there were two cooked juries and two bullshit juries in Nebraska. And then with this, this is obviously a bullshit jury coming out of Florida. And then I was broke, but I just couldn't let go. I knew that Epstein was like Franklin. I just had this high-powered intuition. And then I went. I got down to Florida in 2011, and then I got the black book. And now Epstein used euphemisms for victims. He said massage, under massage. There's all kinds of girls. Yeah, we were looking through the black book this morning. And like I said, I hadn't looked at it in a little while, but like under the Florida one. I mean, all the different states have something. There's a bunch of them, yeah. Yeah. But there's like 80 right there. And you're looking at this, and a lot of it's redacted. And you're like, statistically speaking, many of these numbers are girls 12 to 14. Well, I didn't have the redacted one. I had their phone numbers. I had everybody's phone numbers. So I started to call them first because you need, if there's a child-driving network, you need victims. I mean, so I called the victims first. And the first call was very strange because I talked to a woman whose daughter had been molested by Epstein when she was 13. And she wanted to help me. I said, I'm a journalist. I'm looking into this. She wanted to help me. But she didn't want her kid to. So she asked her kid questions. She didn't want her kid to talk to you? Yes. Okay, got it. She wanted to make sure that everything was appropriate. That's right. So I asked the mother questions, and then the daughter answered them, and then the mother. And she was still very young. I mean, she was 13 when she was molested by Epstein. Although there are younger people. And we've seen. We've seen that now with the files. But then I called a woman who said that she'd been flown around and flown to an island. And we weren't aware of an island at that point. So that wasn't in any, that wasn't discussed at any point during his initial case, like in the court records that didn't mention the fact that he owned an island? Not that I know of. Isn't that kind of crazy? You have a guy that you're bringing to trial for the worst kind of thing. And they're not listing off his various assets that include a eugenics ranch in Zorro, the fucking crazy mansion in Ohio that the farmer girls, Maria and her sister, were abused at. And then obviously something like the island. Like, I would think that's kind of like top of mind. That investigation. The only people that put together a valid investigation was the Palm Beach Police Department. When it got. When what happened was so the Palm Beach Police Department put together that investigation and it had a bunch of they knew of a bunch of girls. They had five underage girls statements, five, but they knew many more. And when that grand jury came back and said that Jeffrey Epstein had molested a single minor, Michael Ryder, who is the unsung hero of this, the unsung hero, he was chief of the Palm Beach Police Department. He became very vociferous and he went to the U.S. attorney, who is Alexander Acosta, said, you've got to investigate this. And that's and then the FBI went to work and the FBI did, in fact. Well, there's a list of like 36 victims, but they knew of 40 or more. And the FBI worked very, very hard to. Really bring this. There was a there was a. A draft that had, I think, 60 indictments and one of by the feds and one of those indictments was child trafficking, which is a heavy sentence in the federal system. It's 15 to life. So that that's what Maxwell was now with. And. So there was this draft. I think it was 60. Indictments. And. All of a sudden, Alexander Acosta says, oh, we're going to do this differently. We're not going to indict Jeffrey Epstein on any counts of child molestation. We're going to have the state do it. But then we're going to give immunity to all his co-conspirators. So that's that's how that works. Which would include like Sarah Kellen. Sarah. Kellen was actually named as one of the co-cons. But but all of them. And what what happened and this is, I believe, what happened. Acosta was told that Epstein was intelligence and that he had to stand down. And the government, there's only two people that can tell a U.S. attorney to stand down. One is the attorney general. One is the president. And at that point, the attorney general is Alberto Gonzalez. And the president was George Bush. The. Cognitively challenged Bush. Bush to push to. So. So. That was was how it played out is now an attorney general is going to cover up a big pedophile network without his boss telling him attorney generals are going to go out on a limb like that. So that is also not how the job is supposed to work. But unfortunately, that's how it's worked for at least. The last decade and a half. Well, you're 25 years. So we can really get into history there. But I don't think we we have that. Oh, yeah, it goes back farther. I just think it's I think the court, the horse completely left the left the station and when Bush was in office. But so Alexander Acosta stands down and then the state of Florida indicts Jeffrey Epstein on one kind of adult solicitation. And. And. Unlawful sexual activity with a minor. Which I think is potentially 15 years or 20 years, but he gets 18 months and he does 13 and he has like a little sweet in that. Oh, yeah, we went through it. We went through the details a couple weeks ago on the show. Yeah. Insane. Yeah. And he and he wasn't really confined there during the day that long. No. But when he was not. And I've got a good source on this. They had a special room. Where he'd meet with his paralegals and his paralegals were generally very young women in their 20s. Yep. And at least one of them came forward. Deep. Yes. One of them. One of her. Her name was released. She talked in that article we were referencing on the show. It's just like, you know, I look at a guy like Alexander Acosta, who, as you said, had the famous line of like, no, I was told he's intelligence back off. And it's like last I checked. I haven't looked at this in a while, I'm pretty sure he has at least a couple of daughters and he's got two daughters. OK, he's got two and he's not only stepped aside on this and said, whatever, but even despite knowing that and knowing the specifics of this case and what he had said, all right, too, with that, he had the audacity to try to continue his political career successfully as well, eventually, obviously becoming the labor secretary. Under Trump won. And I just, you know, I'm really glad I can't relate to these people on these things, but the cognitive dissonance you have to have to continue your little climb up the political ladder after knowing you let something like that go, even if you were a little scared. OK, but you let it go. And then to have the audacity to accept a role as he was the labor secretary. Well, that's how it works. I mean, he was on the yacht. I mean, you can get on the yacht for selling. your grandmother too i mean if you're willing to make but i got in acosta's defense he did not he he was somewhat recalcitrant about that deal and ken star and a bunch of fbi people it's in the files came and uh put the heat on him too ken star who was the attorney on the clinton impeachment yeah who ostensibly uh prosecuted bill clinton yeah that was a i mean epstein had like a who were all his attorneys it was dershowitz who the hell else did he have black on their left court uh ken star um dershowitz yeah yeah that's another thing it's like oh this guy just hired a better legal team than fucking oj simpson did for a pedophile case and no one's talking about it it's kind of interesting well the the mainstream media has been asleep at the wheel or negligent about this case yeah and you i find it tragic that the media is the way it is and i'm kind of a outsider to the media i mean i didn't take i i only took one journalism class i've never been on a staff right of uh of a publication so i've always been able to approach things the way that i want to approach and think for yourself and yeah free thinking yeah and i think that's one of the reasons why i think it's so important that the media is the way it is but like i said earlier there are people at magazines and at newspapers and they're on a reservation that they don't even know they're on yeah yep and then you see people and and i don't know her personally but i i do find it interesting that someone like tara palmeri who was ostensibly in mainstream media for a long time and did these amazing podcasts back in 2020 on epstein and then on maxwell these two series she did a lot of work on the media and she did a lot of work on the media did you know there were there was another stop after political where she was at puck.news which was a newer kind of media platform but now she's on her own independent yeah banging this drum and like i don't know i'd love to ask her about that because i kind of wonder if that's related like she stepped off the reservation a little bit and they're like what the fuck are you doing and she went from someone who was like very much entrenched within the mainstream media and had developed all the right connections and was a rising star there to now she does well but you know she's on her own she's outside the system that's interesting i've been on her show once um she's been fairly impressive yeah in her investigation it really comes down to conscience you were talking about cognitive dissonance yes by the time someone continually tramples their conscience there isn't any cognitive dissonance anymore i think i think uh alexander acosta reached a point where they're he accepted it yeah he accepted i want i always wonder what that's like because i it's another example where you think of the movie scene of life when you see these scenes right someone walks into acosta's office and says you're not gonna you know they start talking about something normal and they say what are you doing what do you mean what am i doing you're not gonna do this what am i not gonna do you're not bringing charges this is way above you people like you swing from the neck if they start doing things like this and the difference is when in the movie you know there's a little piano in the background and the scary music and then they get up and the camera's close on fucking him and and he's he's like breathing heavy and then he's like what the fuck and then it cuts to a new scene but in real life it's technically way less dramatic it certainly feels like something but it's just two people sitting there in silence like this no music no cameras no bullshit and one guy says you're not gonna do this and he goes what you're not gonna do this okay and then he lets it go and then he lets it go and then he lets it go and then he lets it go and then he lets it go well i'm sure that there was a call from the well i'm sure that there was a call from the well i'm sure that there was a call from the attorney general too attorney general too attorney general too and uh gonzalez or maybe even and uh gonzalez or maybe even and uh gonzalez or maybe even the cognitively challenged george bush i the cognitively challenged george bush i the cognitively challenged george bush i could see that yeah but they had enough could see that yeah but they had enough could see that yeah but they had enough scandals at that point but we all need scandals at that point but we all need scandals at that point but we all need another another another so so so acosta was in a difficult position acosta was in a difficult position acosta was in a difficult position and and and yeah but then i'm sure that you know yeah but then i'm sure that you know yeah but then i'm sure that you know you might become labor secretary you might become labor secretary you might become labor secretary if you do this if you do this if you do this oh it's crazy well i got some questions oh it's crazy well i got some questions oh it's crazy well i got some questions on this i just gotta go to the bathroom on this i just gotta go to the bathroom on this i just gotta go to the bathroom real quick so okay we'll be right back real quick so okay we'll be right back real quick so okay we'll be right back all right we're back so you had all right we're back so you had all right we're back so you had mentioned mentioned mentioned you eventually went down to florida 0809 you eventually went down to florida 0809 you eventually went down to florida 0809 when you were hearing about this case when you were hearing about this case when you were hearing about this case went to florida in 2011. you went i'm went to florida in 2011. you went i'm sorry you went in 2011 you had first sorry you went in 2011 you had first sorry you went in 2011 you had first heard about the case in 2008 2009 but heard about the case in 2008 2009 but heard about the case in 2008 2009 but when you went down to florida when you went down to florida when you went down to florida you started calling you started calling you started calling people included like with the massage people included like with the massage people included like with the massage victims as well who were victims as well who were victims as well who were little girls to to be clear but how little girls to to be clear but how did you did you did you we started to talk about this earlier we started to talk about this earlier we started to talk about this earlier how did you get your hands on the black how did you get your hands on the black how did you get your hands on the black book what was the full process there book what was the full process there book what was the full process there like from even finding out it exists to like from even finding out it exists to like from even finding out it exists to then actually having it in your hands then actually having it in your hands then actually having it in your hands there's an interesting story behind the there's an interesting story behind the there's an interesting story behind the blackboard blackboard blackboard even before i got it alfredo rodriguez even before i got it alfredo rodriguez even before i got it alfredo rodriguez was epstein's house manager that's right was epstein's house manager that's right was epstein's house manager that's right and he purloined the black book and he purloined the black book and he purloined the black book purloined stole the black book from purloined stole the black book from purloined stole the black book from epstein epstein epstein stole a copy of it and he called stole a copy of it and he called stole a copy of it and he called an attorney that was representing an attorney that was representing an attorney that was representing the victims or at least two victims i the victims or at least two victims i the victims or at least two victims i think at that point think at that point think at that point and he said i've got the holy grail i'll and he said i've got the holy grail i'll sell it to you for fifty thousand sell it to you for fifty thousand sell it to you for fifty thousand dollars dollars dollars that's it fifty thousand come on that's it fifty thousand come on that's it fifty thousand come on alfredo you know alfredo uh alfredo you know alfredo uh alfredo you know alfredo uh alfredo wasn't the brightest ball yeah alfredo wasn't the brightest ball yeah alfredo wasn't the brightest ball yeah so the attorney called up the fbi and so the attorney called up the fbi and so the attorney called up the fbi and the fbi did a sting yeah i remember that the fbi did a sting yeah i remember that the fbi did a sting yeah i remember that and then got the black book and then got the black book and then got the black book now the reason why remember i said the fbi now the reason why remember i said the fbi now the reason why remember i said the fbi found found found all those victims and then the case got all those victims and then the case got all those victims and then the case got crushed those fbi agents were angry crushed those fbi agents were angry crushed those fbi agents were angry really pissed that really pissed that really pissed that that epstein had gotten away because that epstein had gotten away because that epstein had gotten away because they had found all the victims they had found all the victims they had found all the victims so it came it obviously came from way so it came it obviously came from way so it came it obviously came from way above them so above them so above them so the fbi leaked it to the attorney and the fbi leaked it to the attorney and i met with the attorney um that wasn't i met with the attorney um that wasn't i met with the attorney um that wasn't brad edwards was it brad edwards was it brad edwards was it it was brad it was brad edwards okay it was brad edwards okay it was brad edwards okay and then i met with him a second time and then i met with him a second time and then i met with him a second time and and and he said well this this will help you he said well this this will help you he said well this this will help you in your investigation so he gave you the in your investigation so he gave you the in your investigation so he gave you the physical black book and then you physical black book and then you physical black book and then you uploaded a pdf version of it Yeah, well, I came back to New York, and I tried to sell it to a publisher or a platform. You had the physical book. Well, a copy of it. A copy of it, okay. And no one wanted to touch it. I mean, and I think when I was pitching Franklin, I had – there were a number of editors and publishers I could talk to, and I had a pretty decent agent. But talk about cognitive dissonance. So I'd meet an editor, and I would talk to them about Franklin, and then I'd show them a list of all the victims. And I couldn't. I could just see the cognitive dissonance going down in their eyes. They would say to themselves, this is a horrible story. I really need to help Nick Bryant. Or I can just write Nick Bryant off as crazy and have a nice meal with my family tonight. And all of them – I knew that most of them were going to go that route. I didn't think that all of them were going to go that route. So by the time I got the black book, I didn't have all the – I didn't have all the connections that I had when I was pitching Franklin. But I still had a number of connections. And no one would touch it. No one would touch it. And then I hooked up with John Cook at Gawker. And at that point, I had the flight logs, too. And he said, we'll do it. And who gave you the flight logs again? Another attorney. So it wasn't Brad. It was a different one. No, a different attorney. So it was another attorney for the victims, though? Mm-hmm. Okay. And did he give you that probably on the basis at that point that he knew you had been the black book guy? So he's like, well – No, I don't think he knew that. But if you Google me, you can see that I've done a lot of – I've written The Franklin Scandal. I've done a lot of – I've written a lot on children's issues. And that's what's troubling me is – I mean – And now I'm a conspiracy theorist. And I had a friend of mine who was having dinner with someone who works at Fox. Got a show. And my friend said to him, have you heard of Nick Bryant? And he goes, oh, yeah, he's a conspiracy theorist. So they've heard of me, but I'm a conspiracy theorist. Wow. And that was because I'd become a conspiracy theorist. And Wikipedia completely trashed the book that I wrote that made it look nonsensical. So they had their own page on the book as well? The Franklin Child Abuse Allegations. And that's – people would Google Franklin, there you go, boom. Right. So – And I, you know, I tried to pitch it and pitch it and pitch it. And finally, Gawker was willing to publish it. But the irony of it all is once it was published, the floodgates opened on it. And I think that there's been three quantum leaps in our understanding of Epstein. I think the Black Book is the first. And I think the Julie Brown's series and the Miami Herald. And then I think that the latest tranche of documents. I think those have been our three quantum leaps. I think you're right about that. Understanding Jeffrey Epstein. When you first had this, though, even before you get the flight logs, when you get your hands on the Black Book and you're going through it. And, Steve, can you just, I have it on my computer here, but can you just Google real fast Epstein Black Book PDF and hit the first link so we can have it up? You know, like I said, there's just been times where I'll go through this and scroll and I'll see a new name that I missed, you know, previously every time. It's like Narnia, you know, in a fucked up Narnia. Can you imagine in 2011 getting that? That's what I'm saying. And then looking through it? What does that feel like when you're first scrolling through this going, holy shit. And also, even before you answer that question, when you see the number of contacts that some people, that he had for some people, meaning like, I always use the example of RFK. RFK and his ex-wife, late wife, Mary, are in there. He has like 10 contacts for the two of them at the time. I went back to when I was a little kid, my mom's old phone book that had, you know, before you had the iPhone where you wrote down the contacts like this. And there weren't even that many contacts. There were 10 contacts for like my four at the time alive grandparents put together. And they all had emails, by the way. They were all like with it on that. And I'm like, but he has 10 contacts for one guy. And, you know, does that make you guilty of something? No. But does that look really suspect? Yeah. I remember when I got the blackboard, I hadn't slept a lot the night before. And when I'm on the road investigating stuff, sometimes, you know, I go through. So I hadn't had a lot of sleep the night before. And then I got it. And then I've got a buddy named Peter LaVenda. He's a writer. Oh, yeah, yeah. And I called up Peter and I said, man, I got something to show you. And so we met at a Dunkin' Donuts. I was showing Peter the black book. At Dunkin' Donuts. And there you go. We met in a Dunkin' Donuts. Right on cue. And then I immediately. I made copies of it and then sent it to the Four Winds. The Four what? I dispersed a bunch of copies of it. I like your phrases. Because that's what I did with Franklin. Whenever I'd come across like a document that was really incriminating. I'd send it to everybody. Whenever I, I'd put all my interviews on CDs and then send them to everybody. Just so that if anything happened to you. Yeah. Everywhere. Yeah. That's smart. And I made sure that the people listening to my phone conversations understood that. When did you know or have the inkling that your phones were tapped? Fairly early on. Like in the Franklin scandal or the Epstein? Oh, no. Franklin for sure. How did you know they were tapped? How do you know they're. Well, I'll give you one example of how you know they're tapped. You're talking to someone and you're having a conversation about Franklin and he can give you some fairly decent information. And then the line goes dead. And all of a sudden there's heavy breathing on the other side. That that's an indication that. Yeah, that's a pretty good indication. Actually, I recorded it all. I call it pet sounds. Pet sounds? Pet sounds. Yeah, there's. Why do you call it pet sounds? Well, it's an album by the Beach Boys, so it's kind of, you know. But. There. I mean. It's not like you get messages. We're going to kill you. And right. It's not that overt. Yeah. But I've gotten a lot of strange messages. And but a lot of times there's just been music. Music. Yeah. That's that like elevator music. Kind of. Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah. So but like you go to meet Peter Lavenda and a Duncan. Yeah. And this is years into you thinking your phones are tapped. Do you leave a drawing on The New York Times on your front porch for Peter to come pick up? Like how are we getting the message to Peter? You know, the thing about it is if you're going to do this kind of stuff, you cannot be paranoid. You can't. You cannot be paranoid. No. I mean, you got to use your reason. Your faculties of reason. But I mean, if you're paranoid. It's just not going to work because you're going to it could be frightening at times. If you're paranoid and you're on Coke, then it's definitely not going to work. You're going to be underneath your bed for three months. But I'm not. I'm not a guy that's inclined towards paranoia. And I don't think that like this is the only dancer is. I don't think that this lifetime is the only dancer. What do you mean by that? I believe that we have a soul and our soul goes to another destination. So you don't fear death? I mean, everybody fears death to a certain degree, I think. There's a really great writer. His name is Ernest Becker. He was an anthropologist and he wrote a book called Denial of Death. And I read that book when I was in graduate school. And I thought to myself, you know, this guy has said it all. I don't need to be a philosopher and and denial of death is about how it's always with us. So. The first experiment on Becker's thought is there were they there were judges in Tucson, Arizona, and half of them were control and then half of them weren't. And the half that weren't control had to write about their deaths and their, you know, and death. And was it where they were asked certain questions about their death every day? And then there were the ones that didn't. And all of them were given. The same fictitious case of a of a prostitute and. And generally, the fine at that point was fifty dollars. So the ones that didn't have to think about their death find the prostitute fifty dollars, the fictitious prostitute. The ones that had to read about their death find the fictitious prostitute five hundred dollars. And those. Those experiments have been repeated over and over and over. People that get reminded of their death are, you know, makes them makes them bellicose, makes them angry. And. So. I've had to make peace with that. So it doesn't affect me. Did you make peace with that as an adult or was this something that was. You know, like you said, you grew up in, unfortunately, a really, really difficult environment where you had to fend for yourself. Is there a part of that that stems from that? I don't think so. I think it's the spiritual beliefs that I've acquired. And then also I knew Franklin was going to be dangerous. I knew that. Before you even started the investigation. Well, certainly when I was in the investigation, there's a lot of different people that died very mysteriously with Franklin. And and it's. I'm not saying like I'm Captain America. I mean, I feel fear. I mean, ergo ice cream sandwiches. Right. But because when I got back from New York or from Omaha the first time, I mean, I was freaked out. I was freaked out that it existed. I was freaked out that I got in a death threat. I was freaked out that I was followed. I was I was really freaked out. Who did you talk to about it? Well. I had a mentor named Joe Ballinger, and he was a retired newspaper guy and he was he was a mentor to me. He was like a guy that we would have breakfast every Saturday and he was, you know, I he's since passed away. I loved him as much as I can really love anybody. It was an amazing guy. And we were walking through Washington Square Park and I was telling me, you know, this is what happened. This is what happened. I'm looking for something. snipers and um and then we sit down at a bench and he said to me this is going to be a dangerous investigation nick if you decide to walk away from this i it won't change how much i respect you and um and i said to him you know all those kids were destroyed with impunity somebody has to do something about that i i i gotta do this i mean i i don't necessarily want to do it i gotta do it so that's when i really made the decision to go forward and and and and then i never looked back and you were able if i'm understanding correctly to almost like a line in the sand in the way divorce yourself from the paranoia because you just accepted that it was dangerous yeah yeah good for you and also i want to point out you're coming at it from a different angle and a different lens but nonetheless as an investigator you did the thing in the moment that a guy like alexander acosta did not you stared at it you had someone literally tell you this might be the who knows what's going on in the world this might be the most dangerous thing you've ever done and i won't think less of you if you walk away and you said nah fuck that i'm gonna do it i got a lot of respect for that i mean a lot of people can walk away from that they can just and i think uh people say well you know i can't do anything about that that's right and so i i've just got like the editors that i was pitching um you know i don't really want to do anything about it or i can't do anything about it um but i can't explain there's something about it and you know i'm i'm i've certainly a flawed guy i'm you know i i'm like any other human you know heavily flawed but i i just my conscience was honed to the point where i just couldn't walk away from it and there were a lot of my friends in the media that wouldn't touch this who reacted the same way that alexander acosta did and one of them said to me this is years after the fact i apologize nick i wasn't a good friend to you when you were going through that so one of them apologized well good for that person yeah no i i really like him and respect him and uh but of all the people that let me down there was one guy his name is malachi mccourt i don't know if he he's written a bunch of books his his uh brother was was a famous famous novelist angela he wrote angela's ashes malachi was the only guy in the media that really went to bat for me malachi was his last name malachi mccourt this guy there he is okay oh he passed away a couple years ago great guy i love that guy um he went to bat for me but and he had pretty good connections but no one would touch it no one would touch the story and what what was his background what an interesting bio american irish actor writer and politician born in brooklyn and raised in limerick yes that's kind of cool oh malachi was a great guy yeah but is you know and good for that other guy whoever that was admitting that he was wrong later but it's got to be so frustrating like the psychology is very similar to when someone is accused of a crime they 100 know they had nothing to do with it and everyone goes no you did this and they're screaming out that sometimes from an eight by six box saying wait a minute i didn't fucking do this that's like my ultimate fear of like knowing that your conscience is clear you did not do something you're accused of the worst thing it's a similar psychological thing when you got the goods like you got the stuff you've been there you've been on the ground you've talked to these people you know what happened here even if you only know 50 of it that's 50 more than most people know and people look at you and say no nick you're crazy i can't even that that makes my blood boil people are gonna react with that kind of cognitive dissonance and as i said earlier this is a horrible story i should help nick bryant or nick bryant is crazy and i can go no one in my family has read any of my books no one except for i had a brother-in-law that read my books why haven't they read them because the cognitive dissonance they want to they want to believe in a world that doesn't exist so they still haven't read your books despite i'll even just say this what we've seen in say the last year now they just it's they're not really wired for it they can't handle it i had my brother-in-law used to read my books but he wasn't a very good um husband to my sister i mean he was an alcoholic and he was into hookers so um you know it affected the marriage but he did read my books which you know i mean not that i'm fond of him or anything but you know i'm sorry your delivery is so funny like it just comes out of nowhere i'm not yeah that was just funny but that's that's kind of wild that they still i mean look i do have people close to me as well who want to believe in a world that doesn't exist despite being shown all the evidence but as far as i know those people still listen to my podcast sometimes you know what i mean maybe they ignore the facts but they still listen well the thing with epstein is everybody knows yeah everybody knows there uh there there was a um poll that i think was 89 percent of americans or 92 percent of americans wanted the truth about epstein yep and then there was a poll that 52 percent of americans believed that uh the administration attacked iran to get people's mind off the epstein files i think there's a that is a law that's not going to go away that's right it's going to be a law in a month it's going to be a law in a year it's going to be a law in five years so why do they love breaking it so much already because i think that trump has been heavily pressured i mean trump is actually according to marjorie taylor green trump said when she was defecting yeah he said my friends are going to be hurt if the truth comes out my response would have been are some of these friends on the phone with us right now that would have been my response and with epstein justice we are growing it's been you know we're we're a grassroots movement and we are we are growing it's been slow it's been a slog i started a 501c3 and i had no idea what i was doing no idea but i someone had to do it kind of like writing the franklin scandal you know i i never written anything like that but somebody had to do it and if you look at the labor movement that was a huge battle the government was actually having its soldiers kill protesters and eventually labor unions became a reality labor unions at one point were thought to be completely radical and then the civil rights huge battle and ultimately civil rights legislation was passed um women's rights same thing uh gay rights same thing these are battles that make our society better and this is the battle now to to protect our children according to the centers for disease control 25 of american girls are molested when they're underage and five percent of american boys now people in the field say it's slightly conservative for girls and very conservative for boys but if you just go with those numbers you've got over 50 million americans that have been molested when they were underage and that's another reason why we have to make sure that we get to the bottom of epstein because most of these 50 million people will never see justice and if they see epstein covered up they're going to think that they have no hope for justice yeah i i think this one being so blatantly obvious and what really strikes me is like you so you got your hands on the holy grail all the way back in 2011 to where we can point look and say whoa all right something's going on there but now we're going to look and say whoa all right something's going on there but now we're going to have records from all these time periods have records from all these time periods have records from all these time periods of these people so blatantly operating the the world as they see it from fucking gmail accounts i mean i always say the the trolling that it feels like when the guy at the middle of this literally had a gmail called jee vacation at gmail.com that's like something that like 1999 aol would auto make for you when you're like a grandpa signing on to this internet thing for the first time like the fact that that's the middle of this and these people they don't even try to be the mafia about it they just openly talk about it what it tells me is that well actually they they do there are a number of emails that said we need to talk about this on the phone sure but like you see how many blatant things they talked about before they got there the bar was low and they're operating on like the number one thing that's used for discovery in civil trials let alone criminal trials which tells me that they believe that they existed in a world where that was not even on the conscience of a threat to them like it didn't exist like they're gonna yeah i don't i'm not a part of the plebeians i don't get subpoenaed like they were so confident that none of this would ever see that so confident that a guy like howard lutnick will go on some fucking new york post podcast last summer when he knows this stuff exists and make up that whole fucking story reed hoffman is a great example oh yeah let's talk about reed linkedin founder paypal mafia guy so there is a organization called world without exploitation and they're there to help all these people that have been trafficked and abused and the one of the founders was an ada assistant district attorney at for brooklyn and she suppressed evidence and she ultimately went before an ethics panel and the ethics panel gave her a clean slate but she resigned four hours later and i wrote an article about this it's it's in uh zero hedge it's called are the obscene victims being exploited yet again and i'm looking at world without exploitation reed hoffman gave world without exploitation money for a monday night football commercial and he tweeted about it they tweeted about it everybody was it was kumbaya so when was this uh last year um so during the super bowl world without exploitation had a had a commercial and it just so happens that reed hoffman paid for that too but but the epstein files were released eight or nine days earlier and we knew exactly what reed hoffman was at that point so they're they're taking money from an epstein crony hoffman's an epstein crony at best and even possibly a perpetrator and that's i think if reed hoffman with epstein justice if reed hoffman said i'll give you 10 million dollars to help put your cause forward i wouldn't accept a penny of his money that's right so i wrote an article about that uh it's at zero hedge if you want to if your readers want to check it out it's it's i think it's a good article people have told me it's a good article yeah reed hoffman's a guy we actually is one of the guys we haven't gone deep on yet on a bunch of our episodes that we do on the weekends but like i said obviously founder of linkedin paypal mafia guy multi multi multi billionaire this is a guy who's pictured with epstein on the island throughout the files it's a guy who i believe is early as even those wall street journal reports a few years ago they had him marked down as to when he was being met when epstein was meeting with him on epstein's calendar back in 2014 2013 all after epstein is convicted and everything but the as you just said right there this this is a guy that might have been a perpetrator and he's a guy who's been as well meaning like not just some sick fuck who got blackmailed and was doing the stuff but he might have actually been like making it happen what what's the evidence there well they're very you can tell that they're very close by the emails and then hoffman has sends ice cream for the girls and he said and then he said well the girls are the girls that work for epstein um epstein talks about a wild party with zuckerberg hoffman and musk and he uses the term why now jeffrey epstein when he would consider something wild i mean that would be yeah that's quite the term so and the way that hoffman was going to help whitewash jeffrey epstein's predations he was going to help him online so here he's giving all this money to this group and he doesn't care about those victims what he cares about is he cares about damaging donald trump that's what he wants to do but he's an idiot because he doesn't know that the documents that he's going to ostensibly play a role in releasing are going to incriminate him i mean that's the arrogance that you're you're talking about right when you put out the the black book and flight logs via gawker sometime after that you're going to be like oh my god i'm going to be like oh my god i'm going to be after 2011 it's obviously years before this case ends up breaking open yeah in 2019 i do remember there were like some articles i want to say in 2017 like in politico in some places mentioning yeah this guy who's a pedophile you know knows a lot of people and stuff like that and trump had mentioned him a couple times on the campaign trail at some various stops in 2015 2016 but largely it wasn't a major public story what was your odyssey during that seven eight year layover period if you will to where you you're going to be like oh my god i'm going to be like oh my god i'm going to be you knew this was something big but no one was talking about it very similarly the franklin scandal like were you banging down doors trying to tell people like i have outside the black book and flight logs i have x y and z story on these people and i want to work on it and they were just saying no we're not touching i i mean at that point i went through some really difficult financial times yeah really difficult and that at that point i was just writing to to to not be homeless and i couldn't i i really i pitched some stories but no one was really willing to and plus you know i had this new understanding of the world that was kind of rarefied and a lot of people just didn't have the kind of understanding of the world that i did and i'm talking about the blackmail and and other things so i was just trying to survive as a writer at that point and you know i was editing this crazy magazine a friend of mine had become an editor uh for like a new age magazine i was writing articles for them so i was just it was it was a really tough time for me because i was just eking by as a writer and i've been a writer for i mean that's really all i really know i mean and that's really all i want to do is write i mean now i'm director of a 501c3 i wish i didn't have to be but i'm no it's related to what you write yeah but so yeah i mean i i was just writing to survive did you ever get mad at the world during that time period yeah i can remember um i meditate i haven't been meditating a lot recently but i but i had a pretty hardcore meditation practice and i was meditating and and then i got up and i said no one's fucking listening to me yeah i mean i was really pissed off and um but that is not going to serve you to be walk around angry is it that just is not going to serve anybody that's right and um so the next time i meditated i didn't do that but it's it's important and and i see people that go into this realm you have to keep an emotional spiritual equilibrium or else it's just gonna chew you up and spit you out yeah because i've seen a lot of people just go crazy or misanthropic because they've stumbled into this stuff and yeah i kind of wonder how that's going to affect me i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know how you haven't and which is a testament to you doing all these different stories for so long and and obviously until very recently they weren't taken nearly as seriously as they should have been and you were early to a lot of things and new things that were clearly true that other people didn't it just it blows my mind but you you had you and i were talking off air a little bit before about i don't know if the word's anomalies but you know these hidden figures so to speak right in front of you and you're like i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know like you know we'll see names we recognize in places like oh that's interesting oh they have x number of contacts oh we can track them on the flights and stuff like that but then there's people that you kind of skip over because they're not famous you don't know their name and they got some contacts and they're just one of many people in there and all of them in some way have a story some are small and others are large when it comes to epstein and being in his orbit but you were talking to me about this one psychiatrist who's in there jarecki is that right yeah when did so when you had the black book and when you first got it is this a guy that you looked into back then or was this later no it was it was relatively recently recently so who was this guy henry jarecki was a psychiatrist and then he also got into um i think it was gold futures i'm not quite sure but he became a billionaire a billionaire and his kids are directors of films and epstein would send victims to jarecki for either maybe benzodiazepines tranquilizers or antidepressants and we see that in the files in the emails um well yeah well how we got edified to that initially was a lawsuit and uh brad edwards litigated against it and jarecki said that the woman was completely compliant with everything he did to her and there was a 60 year differential between the two so um but jarecki epstein sent this according to the lawsuit epstein sent this victim to uh jarecki for some psychiatric help and then jarecki kind of essentially made her a sex slave and he would pander her out i mean he would have some of his buddies come and they would all um uh molest the woman and he is uh eminent psychiatrist and actually to this day yes um well now he's kind of i think alzheimer's but jeffrey epstein wrote him an email about how jarecki mistreated people so if you can imagine that i mean epstein thought that jarecki was his uh his treatment of people was horrific it's it's it's kind of an amazing email can we pull that up thief let's try to find that he was so bad that epstein that's like when bin laden called isis a little too much dr henry jarecki and nick jarecki event invitations and nick is his son is that right yeah he's got three sons that are one of his sons was the director of the jinx documentary about that real estate guy that killed those people um you can go to my uh you can go to my zero hedge article and i've got i've got a link to that particular okay we'll grab that so the backs the epstein survivors being exploited yet again one or a different one um yeah epstein buyers go down there's going to be the go-to shrink epstein's go-to shrink oh a section called that yeah okay google there you go there you go okay so which link would you like right there okay go to doctor uh prior to assuming oh there you go astonishingly epstein and jarecki to that to 2011 email okay down down low right there 2011 right there perfect okay here we go yes all right so this is from epstein to dr henry jarecki on september 9th 2011 as your memory seems compromised i think you should consider the option that it is all caps your behavior that drives everyone away they are they are ready to love others are ready to be friends others business associates try as they might and though you talk a good game they are treated to selfishness and they are treated to selfishness and they are treated to selfishness and they are treated to selfishness and they are treated to selfishness and they are treated to selfishness cheap and intrusive actions the result has to be which is has been and then poisons the water for future candidate as the reputation becomes widespread you drive away these girls they start out open to a love relation i guess referring to relationship and then you torture and mistreat each and then i guess take comfort in the fact that you were right not to think it possible there you go whoa that's uh so that is dark as fuck jeffrey ebstein kind of looks at jarecki as a monster a monster looking at another monster as a monster it's that's that's nuts how how when did you was it right from the get-go because of your investigation into the franklin scandal was it right from the get-go looking at epstein were you said obviously this is an intelligence related operation i kind of had this intuition that it was and when i got the black book that corroborated a lot of things for me and then when i started digging into the the documentation and then when i saw that jeffrey ebstein was given that sweetheart deal and all those co-conspirators were given immunity at that point i was pretty sure it was intelligent that there had to be orders from on high and why would the cognitively challenged george bush and alberto gonzalez tell alexander costa to stand down what reason would they have and i pretty much concluded at that point that it was an intelligence sure did you did you think it was cia did you think it was massad did you think it was a mix of both did you think it was other places did you have any inkling about the supra government idea that we now have from the emails that later got released to where it's clear that there are families and dynasties that operate with impunity around the world and actually just decide who gets to fucking be the figurehead in office i looked at ebstein as a wormhole into a different universe and you can call it the ebstein class and with with ebstein now people want to say he's massad and you want to say cia i think that there's a very dark part of our intelligence that does this type of thing that does that does franklin's that does ebstein's yeah and there are people in the cia that don't even know that this exists and then there are people in the cia that kind of know this exists but they've got house payments there with the franklin scandal there were two feds that helped me out and it took me two years to call feds you meaning cia guys um people in uh in federal law enforcement okay not cia but federal law enforcement that that really helped me out and i think that's a very dark part of our intelligence but it took me i had to cultivate them for two years and they had to be really solid that i would never give them up if the shit hit the fan what made them feel comfortable on that especially if you were a guy who was having his phone tap um i i don't know they like i said it took two years to cultivate their trust so and i did provide them with some information that they wanted so but it wasn't extremely it was an exclusive utilitarian i mean i i got much more information from them than they got from me or that's what i believe but anyway with ebstein there's uh the there's a palestinian hacking group called hendala that released a bunch of ahub barack's emails and ebstein and who barack are putting together arms deals and and definitely the israeli intelligence i think are military industrial conflicts whatever everyone is involved so i think that but but then you get jeffrey epstein's sweetheart deal are george bush and alberto gonzalez gonna go to bat for a guy that's in the masad like that or are they gonna go to bat for a guy that's in the cia or both or and that's and that's what i believe i think the dirty part of the masad and the dirty part of the cia it's like the gambino and genovese crime families they don't shoot at each other anymore because they realize that it's bad for business they work together yeah i think there's something to be said for that and i also think the point you make about there being a lot of people who don't aren't aware of this happening in cia is very real it's the compartmentalization structure that allows it to happen because it's very interesting that for years now anyone i've talked with whether it be people i brought on the podcast or sources i got connected to who were ex in the tell or probably still in there's no one on a scale of Andy Bustamante to John Kiriakou meaning like the range of like statist all the way to anti-statist who has not expressed a complete disdain for their relationship with the Mossad they don't like them they did not like each other they did not work well together that said there has to be a segment in there somewhere that works hand in hand the James Jesus Angleton kind of segment and I think that Epstein is a guy that the evidence is pointing to he was inside that world there yeah I mean I know a medical doctor who was in the CIA during MKUltra and he didn't even know about MKUltra can you explain that how that worked it was obviously very compartmentalized and so and MKUltra was a huge program I think there were 149 sub-projects but this guy didn't even have a and he's a medical doctor and he didn't have a clue about MKUltra so how do you know for a fact he didn't have a clue versus he's playing stupid um I believe him when he told me this so I mean so what was his involvement if he didn't have a clue he was brought he was obviously brought in under the guise of something else for expertise he knew he was being brought in he provided said expertise and didn't realize that expertise was used for something that he wasn't aware of is that fair to say well he was working at Stanford Research Institute with Operation Stargate which which was yeah remote remote viewing okay so and there's a guy that's deep I mean he's remote viewing oh yeah that's great but he still doesn't know about MKUltra I believe him on that I mean there's his his expertise was used in some way to support it yeah I mean cultivating psychic ability was was certainly a part of MKUltra but he was working with a completely different crew Andre Puharich I don't know if you're familiar with that he was part of Operation Stargate and he was a pedophile Andre Puharich Andre Puharich we pulled that up this is a known fact that he was a pedo oh big time yeah really twisted depraved individual so he was a remote viewer or was he he was the guy that conscripted Uri Geller oh that's interesting okay so Andre Puharich there he is born Henry Carroll Puharich was a medical and parapsychological medical inventor physician and author known as the person who brought Israeli Uri Geller and Dutch born Peter Herkos to the United States for scientific investigation Puharich was born in Chicago yeah okay let's go down here is there a section that talks about his good all right so while working in Mexico Puharich married Rebecca Albin Hofberger the future founder and director of the American Visionary Art Museum they later divorced is there a section that references the data of his so so this guy's a known pedo yeah there there's a Uri Geller that he was a guy that found Uri Geller yeah he was definitely a pedo and I talked to this CIA doctor and I said you know that Puharich was was a pedophile and he said well yeah I he was a weird guy what was the evidence to the I mean I believe you what was the evidence though that made it so clear that he was in that there have been a number of his victims that have come forward and there is some really good research out there it's called the extreme abuse survey and anybody that's into mind control should check out the extreme abuse survey and there were it was a survey that people that was there were actually four people that were in the survey that were in the survey that were in the survey that were primary investigators and uh two of two of them were psychologists maybe three of them were but but anyway they and then there was a woman named Carol Rutz who was really one of the first mind control victims to come out and in a in a in a really credible way and write a credible book and a number and and Nick's in supposedly stopped mind control in 1972 but according to the extreme abuse survey it it continues to go on sure and I've been to I've spoken at conferences where people have claimed to be mind controlled um and a number of them are terrified we're terrified of Puharich I mean viscerally terrified of Puharich well so and then there's been these ancillary anecdotes about him molesting little boys too so why do you why do you think that's such a sick and depraved literally anti-human behavior which is abusing little kids why do you think it exists I mean, it exists everywhere, to be clear, like you said earlier. But why is it such a more widespread thing than maybe 20 years ago we previously would have realized with extremely powerful people? What about it draws those types of people to it? Well, as I said earlier, every socioeconomic stratum has child molesters. That's right. It's difficult to know with these guys. Maybe some of them were abused. That's entirely possible, intergenerational abuse. And I talked to a psychologist in Washington, D.C. Because I really try to understand all this. This is kind of – that type of stuff is antithetical to how I live my life. To be attracted to a child, I mean, I just – So I talked to a lot of people. There was a psychologist that actually – in Washington, D.C. that I talked to. That she actually works with people that are pedophiles that don't want to be pedophiles in D.C. And she came up with what I call the forbidden fruit that, you know, here are guys. You've got these powerful guys like Henry Jarecki. They're billionaires or Epstein or any – Richard Branson, all these guys. They can have steak any night they want. But sometimes they drift towards forbidden fruit. So I think that there's different ways that these perpetrators come to be perpetrators. That's a good way to put it. And some of them are just outright sadists. The – Virginia Giuffre, who I got to know. Before she killed herself, she was terrified of Ahud Barak and Les Wexner. Terrified of them. Because they had personally abused her? Yes. Yeah. Wow. And if you look at how close Ahud Barak are and Epstein – I mean, these Handala emails are just – I mean, it's a score. The Handala emails? The Palestinian hacking group. Oh, that's right. Yeah. You can go to nickbryannyc.com. And I've written three articles. I've got a big article about Jeffrey Epstein and the CIA connections. And then I've got two different articles about Ahud Barak and Jeffrey Epstein putting together arms deals. They're right on my blog for free. All right. Let's pull that out. Steve's got it. Here you are on Danny Jones and Mark Gagnon. And then which one are we looking for here, Nick? Actually, go to my blog. Okay. Over on the right. Yeah, right there. So – Jeffrey Epstein and the CIA. Yeah. That one's like 7,200 words. And then there's a couple other ones. That one, Jeffrey Epstein and Ahud Barak's so big brother, it's a dictator. Was this in Africa? Yeah. When they were doing – Yes. Yeah, we talked about this one. So this was on a different podcast. The Internet platform DropSite News recently acquired a cache of emails between Jeffrey Epstein and the former Israeli Prime Minister Ahud Barak showing that Israel used Epstein as a conduit for dealing cyber weapons. The emails were courtesy of the Handala pro-Palestinian hacking group with possible ties to Iran. And they were posted by Distributed Denial of Secrets, a nonprofit whistleblower and file-sharing website. Diligence Dropsite News authenticated the emails, and its investigation of the Epstein-Barack emails are the foundation of this blog. The emails between Epstein and Hu Barak from 2013 to 2016 show that they were a dynamic duo. Barak had, of course, denied being privy to Epstein's sex trafficking and abuse of Myers, even though the aforementioned emails were exchanged five years after Epstein had become a convicted child molester and registered sex offender. The late Virginia Giuffre also named Barak as one of her unsavory perpetrators. As Epstein pimped out underage girls and young women to his affluent and powerful cronies, Israel was en route to becoming a trendsetter in the development of cyber warfare technology, which included malware, spyware, cyber attacks, and state-of-the-art surveillance, think Pegasus and stuff like that. So Epstein and Barak hatched a scheme to augment the coffers of both Barak, Israel, and, of course, Epstein by peddling cyber technology to various countries, including an African dictator. For purveyors of carnage, the third world countries are invariably a wellspring of revenue. And convicted child molester Jeffrey Epstein and the former prime minister and alleged pedophile Ahud Barak had a panache of war profiteering. Yeah, so this was when they lined the West African country of Cote d'Ivory and their sites as a target and was ripe for profiteering. Epstein emailed Barak with civil unrest exploding and the desperation of those in power. Isn't this perfect for you? Barak replied, you're right in a way, but not simple to transform it. So think about that. When there's civil unrest exploding, people. People would think, you know, how can we help those people? How can we how can we give them peace? I mean, how could what diplomatic overtures are required? But these guys, they want civil unrest. They want to sell arms. I mean, that's how crazy they are. They want death. They don't want death to themselves. They want death to people that they consider useless eaters. They they consider pretty much everyone who's not in their class a lab rat. But it's on it's even on a different level when it comes to the the children they abuse and then the places where they can profiteer on war. They don't give a shit. They don't have to be there. There is a email exchange between Barry Josephson. He's a big time producer in Hollywood. There's a lot of movies and and Epstein. And the email goes. It's something like we were at Gate Bill Gates and I were talking about what's the best way to get rid of poor people and I've got I think I've got a really good idea for getting rid of poor people and we'll have to talk on the phone about so Epstein said that no no Josephson said Josephson I'm sorry so they're not talking about assuaging poverty. No, they just want. They're talking about getting rid of poor people. Yeah, it's what all the people out there saying. Hey, these guys are trying to do population control with stuff at this point. I don't even know how you argue against that in a court of law like everything that they do everything they're tied to is tied to people that are of lesser means dying being used abused left behind and they're just data points for them. Yeah, I think that's a really really horrible that these people who have really no respect for human life. That's right. Are running our world. When when did you find about out about the island for the first time? 2011. That's when I was taught I was calling up and this woman young woman had told me that on the phone that was the first time you with her was the first time I found out about it. So did you look into it? Did you look into it right away at that time? No, at that point I was just trying to suck up as much information as I possibly could and I was really I wanted to get documents on the sweetheart deal and the island was something that I was going to circle back to. But when you're just starting investigate and I was just starting this investigation there were so many other things other than the. Island that I needed to look into but I eventually circle back to the island for sure and one was that. I would say. 2014 yeah definitely 20 by by 2013 2014 I I talked about at the time what did you find out like what was the extent of what you knew about it and what was happening there. I. I just knew that. I've seen a fly in girls and actually Virginia you free said that they were she released the an affidavit in 2015 and she said that they were as young as 12. Flown into the island yeah and for for pedophilic orgies and then there was other information but Virginia you freeze affidavit. Was. She accused her show it's an Prince Andrew and. Maxwell being perpetrators that that that's there's a tremendous amount of really good information in there. We haven't seen outside of the land Maxwell who was convicted of trafficking children to nobody. And Epstein being dead air quotes there with everything obviously we have not seen any of the people implicated. In these emails that are now public or who are very clearly in the orbit. Face any real justice in the United States and as you pointed out earlier we've even seen distraction after distraction try to get the American people's mind off of it. Not to be too obvious about it but why do you think that is and do you think that'll ever change and we'll see some justice. I do. Believe that we will see justice I mean I'm. I've dedicated my life to getting justice in this case. Of course I'm. I believe that it's possible. When I started looking into this issue in 2002. People thought I was crazy. That the government. Taking part in child trafficking. And. You've. Lost your mind Nick. But now look at how far this issue has come. Over. The last 20 years. It's come light years. It has. I was. In Greenwich Village I was. Listen to some music just kind of walking around this was about. Four years ago or so. And a friend of a friend of mine. Of a sudden I saw him at the corner of the corner of my eye and he goes you were right you were right. He was screaming at. So. But the troubling thing is I was right and everything that I've said about Epstein there were girls under 12 years old I've said that there were sadistic pedophiles I've said that. They've been corroborated. By. These files. Did you find girls that weren't mentioned in any. In any court cases or anything like that who were seven. Well. Okay. I. Know a number of therapists. That work with dissociative identity disorder. And two of them. Work with. Women who said that they've been trafficked when they were under 10 years old. And both those. Therapists and ones that pretty. Eminent psychologist tried to get money from the Epstein victims compensation program for their clients helped help them jump through the hoops. And they weren't awarded any money because. I believe and they also believe that there's a cover story that there was no girls under 14 years old. Even though there's evidence for. There is there has been girls under 14 years old so. And that has been a place where people just don't want to go. They don't want to get their mind around that they're that young. And the media likes to prop it up as like they're 16 years old, when actually the first one that came forward was 14 years old. And when I was calling my first call of talking to a victim, she was 13 years old. I was talking to her mother. So here's the thing. These guys are psychopaths. If you want a seven-year-old, they'll get you a seven-year-old. That's just, they do not, their conscience is not an impediment to doing whatever they need to do. And I saw that with the Franklin scandal. Those guys, those pimps like primarily, younger adolescent boys, but if you wanted a seven-year-old, they'd get you you a seven-year-old that's they don't have a conscience they're psychopaths and whatever your comfort zone is that they will provide it because you're on the yacht you're on the yacht and you're going to be taken care of while you're on the yacht as long as you do what you're supposed to do while you're on the yacht you're going to be taken care of with whatever you want outside of some of the victims being much younger than what the media reports and what may even be talked about in common parlance what do you think is the biggest thing to this day that people are missing about the epstein story that they should be paying more attention to well there were some very sadistic pedophiles for sure i mean we're seeing that with um the documentation about torture there's that one very salient email from you the guy from united arab emirates i can't enjoy yeah the the emir where he's like i really enjoyed the torture video yeah and yeah so and and i knew that very early on the the sadism too and it was uh so i've known that these victims were younger and i've known that they were treated some of them were treated very very sadistically virginia jufri was treated very very sadistically and i wrote an article about world without exploitation and everything is solid the two women that run that organization are lawyers and the guy that's financing them is a billionaire and i could not get that article published in any kind of mainstream magazine any of the articles that i've written about epstein i cannot get them published in mainstream magazines that's insane and and that article if you look at that article is every fact has a hyperlink right every fact but and i'm amazed that zero hedge published it to tell you the truth i'm glad somebody did i mean it's it's just nuts to me that they can keep doing it but again like you know we see the things that they want us to see and they're always preparing us for the next thing that we're going to see so that we can forget about the last thing we did and that's how they continue and they've done it forever they being you know the powers that be that run the news cycle if you will you know and then we kind of go along with life and follow where the algorithm goes and that's how they can still get away with it i just wonder at what point you know it has that roman empire fall of rome moment which to be clear i don't want to see like a fall of rome but i'd like to see a restructuring of the fucking you know pillars that built it you know i wonder when that moment happens my belief is that we can shame our legislators into an independent congressional commission because i think if you just drill down on epstein you're gonna drill into the sewer the sewer that runs our lives and i i have that belief uh i might be delusional i've never been diagnosed as delusional but i do have that belief that it is possible that americans the right and the left can come together on this issue right and and we can start to clean out our government well we had there's two huge names i mean there's a million huge names in these files but there's two huge symbolic names that appear in different contexts and have different conversations about them obviously related to this case who were around epstein's orbit and knew him one is from the left one is from the right they were both presidents you have clinton and you have trump obviously through some of your work releasing the flight logs we know clinton was on those planes 26 27 times went to the island all that and through you know public information as well as some people who can attest to it like donald trump being a guy that was in new york was around jeffrey epstein and knew him quite well and there was a period where they had a good relationship eventually it was not that way but there's still a lot of questions going on with that i guess my main question here not in any particular order for you to go to but you know how how damning is the evidence against those two guys in particularly as as as it relates to the extent to how much they were involved with epstein well epstein was bringing women in to the white house when clinton was in there yeah and with trump epstein wasn't shy about saying he was a pedophilic pimp i mean he said that to trump no no he wasn't shy about saying i mean he wore it on his sleeve that he was i mean he'd always be a company a lot of times he would be accompanied by very young girls right and and that's been i don't know how you can hang out with the guy for a period of time and not know that he's a pedophilic pimp i i you'd have to be unbelievably obtuse so it kind of goes back to the yacht forever war president and we're in a forever war now with iran there's a number of things that he's said that he's done an about face on why why is that why yeah i mean people got behind him because he wasn't going to start any new wars and you know he discarded that pretty quickly i think that those guys have live a different life than us and for life of a better word they're they're in the epstein class and i know that people want to defend donald trump to their dying breath and i know that people want to defend him and i know that people want to defend him and i know that people want to defend him and i know that people want to defend bill clinton to want to defend bill clinton to want to defend bill clinton to their dying breath their dying breath their dying breath but but but look at the evidence in the very least in the very least in the very least with the trump administration they came with the trump administration they came with the trump administration they came out with that crazy document out with that crazy document out with that crazy document uh i think july 5th that said uh i think july 5th that said uh i think july 5th that said fcm national acted alone yeah i mean fcm national acted alone yeah i mean fcm national acted alone yeah i mean that that that right there is a cover-up right there is a cover-up right there is a cover-up donald trump right there is a cover-up donald trump his administration is covering up child his administration is covering up child his administration is covering up child sex trafficking sex trafficking sex trafficking and they haven't strayed from that and they haven't strayed from that and they haven't strayed from that i i i just find it mind-boggling that i i i just find it mind-boggling that i i i just find it mind-boggling that they just came out one day and said oh they just came out one day and said oh they just came out one day and said oh that's it it's a hoax that's it it's a hoax that's it it's a hoax and people want people want people want we'll say well you know i don't think we'll say well you know i don't think we'll say well you know i don't think donald trump molested any underage girls donald trump molested any underage girls donald trump molested any underage girls and that might be the case maybe he and that might be the case maybe he and that might be the case maybe he didn't honor but he's certainly didn't honor but he's certainly didn't honor but he's certainly covering it up right now yes covering it up right now yes covering it up right now yes it's indefensible and people again it's indefensible and people again it's indefensible and people again we're dealing with cognitive dissonance we're dealing with cognitive dissonance we're dealing with cognitive dissonance people do not want to believe that people do not want to believe that people do not want to believe that the person that they put in office the person that they put in office the person that they put in office would aid in a bed would aid in a bed would aid in a bed no they don't but it also seems to be no they don't but it also seems to be no they don't but it also seems to be halfway a requirement to work in the halfway a requirement to work in the halfway a requirement to work in the trump administration that you have some trump administration that you have some trump administration that you have some sort of long-standing ties to one sort of long-standing ties to one sort of long-standing ties to one jeffrey epstein it's jeffrey epstein it's jeffrey epstein it's whether it's leon black's son that whether it's leon black's son that whether it's leon black's son that idiot liar howard lutnik who somehow idiot liar howard lutnik who somehow idiot liar howard lutnik who somehow is still the commerce secretary to this is still the commerce secretary to this is still the commerce secretary to this day hasn't been fired hasn't had the day hasn't been fired hasn't had the day hasn't been fired hasn't had the decency to decency to decency to resign in the last administration alex resign in the last administration alex resign in the last administration alex acosta being the labor secretary acosta being the labor secretary acosta being the labor secretary you know you find the tentacles tied you know you find the tentacles tied you know you find the tentacles tied back to epstein in some weird way back to epstein in some weird way back to epstein in some weird way across so many people that have across so many people that have across so many people that have powerful positions within trump's orbit powerful positions within trump's orbit powerful positions within trump's orbit that you have to ask the question why is that you have to ask the question why is that you have to ask the question why is that we know what kind of vetting people that we know what kind of vetting people that we know what kind of vetting people go through to be a janitor go through to be a janitor go through to be a janitor in the white house of course they're in the white house of course they're in the white house of course they're vetting or you would hope they were vetting or you would hope they were vetting or you would hope they were they would be all the people that are they would be all the people that are they would be all the people that are going to be holding actual real big going to be holding actual real big going to be holding actual real big government positions so they have to know government positions so they have to know government positions so they have to know obviously that's not true we've seen obviously that's not true we've seen obviously that's not true we've seen that like just the optics alone of like that like just the optics alone of like that like just the optics alone of like of all the people i could make commerce of all the people i could make commerce of all the people i could make commerce secretary should i make the next door secretary should i make the next door secretary should i make the next door neighbor of like the most insane neighbor of like the most insane neighbor of like the most insane pedophilic story in the history of this pedophilic story in the history of this pedophilic story in the history of this country should i make that guy yeah country should i make that guy yeah country should i make that guy yeah probably not he's a billionaire he probably not he's a billionaire he probably not he's a billionaire he doesn't need it anyway you know what i doesn't need it anyway you know what i doesn't need it anyway you know what i mean like it's so in your face mean like it's so in your face mean like it's so in your face that that that i can't look away from that and deep and i can't look away from that and deep and i can't look away from that and deep and i have speculated i don't know if you i have speculated i don't know if you i have speculated i don't know if you have any thoughts on this have any thoughts on this have any thoughts on this that if it is in fact that that if it is in fact that that if it is in fact that donald trump wasn't actually like a donald trump wasn't actually like a donald trump wasn't actually like a pedophile pedophile and that's not what he did with jeffrey and that's not what he did with jeffrey and that's not what he did with jeffrey epstein epstein epstein do you think it's it's possible as it's do you think it's it's possible as it's do you think it's it's possible as it's been posited by some people over the been posited by some people over the been posited by some people over the years on a spec basis i should say that maybe melania trump was introduced to donald trump by jeffrey epstein well a lot of people have proposed that and i guess there's some validating information i haven't really dug into that issue that with again on that what's that dig in on that i want to see you dig in on well there's there's so many different issues with epstein and um melania she gave that really bizarre press conference yeah and right when amanda and garo started talking behind twitter accounts and what i find amazing is according to the media donald trump didn't know about that conference in the east wing that's right the white now this First of all i think there that's just another very disingenuous lie that we're expected to eat as americans we are eating a lot of as i said earlier you know we're eating a lot of shit yep that we don't have to eat i do believe that there is a groundswell of people in our country that just say we're tired of it the thing about people is if there's a critical mass of people other people will join because they see that there's a critical mass of people and what we're trying to do at epstein justice is create that critical mass and i think that once that critical mass is created because americans don't want americans know what jeffrey epstein is about the vast majority of them do they are appalled that our government is covering it this appalled and i think that they can we can come together around this issue i think it's as i said earlier i think it's the only issue that the right and the left can agree on that children shouldn't be molested with impunity well i hope you're right about that and i i hope they do obviously you've been an og on this case and and putting it out there for people to see for so many years and obviously we covered today the franklin scandal as well which you've written a book about and spent a lot of years of your life trying to get out there when people told you it wasn't true and i think a lot of your work unfortunately has been vindicated over the years i say unfortunately because you'd like these things not to be true but good on you for trying to you know put some light on on the darkness so the people can see the truth and i think that's a big part of it exists and maybe we can root it out into the future well i just keep trying to do the next right thing that's it that's it well we will we're going to link your website and anything else you want in there as well so a bunch of the articles we referenced today you guys will be able to see you've done some great podcasts my friend mark gagnon and danny jones i think you've been on sean ryan as well a bunch of different shows and getting the word out there so people should go check all those out but nick thanks so much for doing this man thank you very much jillian all right everybody else you know what it is give it a thought get back to me peace hey guys if you're not following me on spotify please hit that follow button and leave a five-star review they're both a huge huge help thank you