The Daily Dose #138 | Healthy Homes, Smarter Building: Jackson Digney on Enduro, Integrity and Innovation

Hey, builders, late night quoting, admin piling up. If you're like most builders, the site is the easy part. It's the office that can wear you down. That's why scale-ups smart exists. Think of them as your office sub-eats. Estimators, admin, marketing pros and even virtual PMs all ready to go, no headaches and no risk. Scale-ups smart plugs expert back-offer support and has an extension of your current team straight into your business so you can get growing without the burnout. Go and check them out, scale-upsmart.com.au. This is the good builder podcast. We are very excited today because we've got a really special guest and he's actually our first builder from South Australia. It was my wife actually. I know this is going to sound fairly creepy but she was stalking this bloke and I didn't get jealous because he's a good builder and I was kind of like, what is he up to? What are they doing? We reached out and we've been following him, having a look at his philosophy. He builds beautiful sustainable homes and we really think that he knows what the meaning of healthy homes and that's a big discussion in today. In today's industry, so basically today we have the amazing Jackson Digny from Enduro Builders on the Good Builder Podcast. How are you, man? Great. Thank you. Yeah. It's actually this morning's the first morning we've had coming out of. As you come out of winter, you get the occasional warnings where you can feel a little bit of warmth in the air rather than the chill of winter. I actually noticed it as I'm walked up to the car from the house this morning. It's like summer is coming. Mate, that's so cool. If anyone feels the cold, I think it's builders. Yeah. Because you're out there the earliest. You're in the dark. You know, it's those dark cold mornings and I think you know Jackson, we're up here in Queensland. So I think our dark cold mornings aren't as dark as yours down in South Australia and things like that, mate, in the cold. No, no, no. Where you get, you know, you're building up the owner in its South Australia. We know the story of sometimes you can go for a whole week and not see the sun because you get up. Get up early. You get in your car. You go to the office and you know, if you have a where you have real office-based work. Yeah. You're fine. You don't get out because then you leave again and the sun's gone down and you go home. So, it's part of the fun of winter over here. I grew up in WA. So, it's a much mild climate. My first winter in South Australia, I was hoping I was going to make it. All mate, by the looks of things, you made it and you make it pretty good, man. Like, you've got some beautiful homes out there. We love your philosophy. I love that you are so open on your socials and you talk about what's behind the scenes when you're building and the things you're doing. I was just having another glance over you talking about membranes. I think it's any guys that interested in the industry that get off on talking about membranes and things, but you know, it's pretty cool. But, first of all, I just wanted to start with getting to know you, Jackson. This is our genuinely our first conversation. So, tell us a bit about your journey, mate, and how you got into it all. I always wanted to be a profiting developer. Okay. And I went pretty sideways from that when I finished school and started accounting. Yeah, we're out. Instead of going and doing construction management at uni, I never finished my degree because instead of it sailing for a living for a little while, and that was pretty short, a little while, because we worked out that there wasn't that much future in that. Yeah. And then kind of created a role for myself as the general manager at a manufacturing business in WA that is involved in the marine industry. Yeah. And then I bought that business and ran that business for a while. And then I sold that business just before the GFC, which culminated with my now-wife finishing her uni degree. And she's from South Australia, but she was in Perth studying Cairo. And she finished her degree at the same time that I sold the business and her mum had teeter up with a job over here. So I was madly in love not thinking straight and said, "Sure, we'll go and do that for two years." Yeah. Yeah, that was nearly 17 years ago. Wow. And since then, it wasn't long before I talked her into buying the Cairo business she was working for. Yeah. And then we bought a house, we got married, had four kids. Yeah. And both of us have started a couple of businesses. Obviously, Juro is one of my businesses. Yeah. And, yeah, the thing that got me into what I'm doing now is that when I moved over here, I kind of had an opportunity to break out of the marine industry and revisit being a builder. Yeah, yeah. And, Kylie, my wife, her old man, who was retired now. He was like, "Your hands on a builder." You know, one of the little guys that does all the work, which meant that it was a great opportunity for me to work with him and utilize trade skills that I already had from the marine industry and just expand on them. And of course, go and retrain so that I could get my builder's license. Wow. And then the thing that pushed me into energy efficient beauty, because I did a few other things I went and I worked as a commercial builder as a project manager, which was really good. It was a good experience and I actually went in there thinking that I was going to, that was me, I was settled down into a corporate job and, you know, and this is coming from my family of small business owners. And like, when I finished school, my first thing to do is support myself as the start of business. You sound fairly entrepreneurial, Jackson. Like I was not expecting this mate, but in my head, I'm not trying to judge you from afar because we've just met each other, but in my head, I think mate, that I can see why you're a good builder, but please continue. So yeah, I worked for this commercial company as a project manager. Wow. And they really only gave me a go because of my business background, which they said when they hired me because really on paper was not an experienced project manager, like construction. Yeah. Pretty much, pretty much from the perspective, I and some businesses started a bunch of traveling and then worked as a carpenter that kind of also did steel fixing and roofing and all of that, all of the bits that you can think of. Yeah. And I quickly learned that there wasn't, there was excitement on the business side, but not much, not much heart in the work that you do, working commercial. Yeah. And certainly the type of commercial that that company did. And so it was interesting and it was challenging and they learned a lot of really cool things. Yeah. But there was no, there was no soul in it. And then I went and worked during all those years, you know, we were establishing ourselves in South Australia. I mean, for Carly, obviously, Laura, I'm a deep had heaps of friends, but we were sort of growing the network of people. And we met a guy who was a carpenter who kind of morphed into a food income. And he was, he was in a lot of strife financially. He was not, he was one of those guys that you hear about where that, you know, you get like a big progress claim coming in. They're like, oh, I've got a hundred grand in the bank, whereas the, the corrected code is, oh, you've got about 95,000 in the bank that belongs to somebody else. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, great. Let's get the jet skis. Yeah. So he was, you know, he was in a world of her and I was really looking for a challenge. And so I said, I'll come and work for you. But you got to let me take over the whole business and all the finances and I reckon I reckon I can save the business, which I did. And I worked for him for about 11 months. And we got, we got the business back to, you know, paying a super on time, paying the bills on time. Yeah. Back on track with the ATO and then he started to see a bit of money in the account. Yeah. Yeah, it all fell apart when we went there for dinner all night and it was a Back in the days, you know sam some brought out those massive curves growing TVs. Yeah, yep, they're huge Yeah, and and this white leather couch and I was like how'd you pay for that? It's like oh, well, you know, I just took a money out of my business. I'm like yeah, and it's your business, but that wasn't our arrangement Yeah So from now it all fell apart and then we parted ways. Yeah Not all that amicably because to me he he'd really broken his integrity and it take like the quickest way to get on a musk in is to question my integrity Yeah, yeah Because I've spent some awfully large amounts of money protecting my integrity. Yeah, what I could have just So yeah, that led to starting in juro and and The reason for the focus on sustainable and energy efficient building. Yeah comes from Comes from a few different areas one is mild man. Yeah See troubles around the world booting airships, which is a complete clearly different way way of going to got things and focus on We have to we have to take care of the planet. We're on yeah and Also Recognizing that constructions are really we are generally a really wasteful industry Yes, yeah, and actually one of everyone focuses on how things are built and what the inputs are and building your house Yeah, waste actually occurs when the houses are built so poorly that they don't they don't last Or the ones that do last are moldy hellholes that are not safe or healthy to live in yeah still living in them. Yeah, and and the waste That comes from demolishing those buildings long before they should be getting demolished Is actually where the problem really lies? Yeah And so that led me into the importance of health in buildings because I mentioned mold and compensation yeah, and and that so start of his bootings sustainable homes So let's build them so they last for a long time and then that led me into Building homes at an airtight because then I started to learn that you know key to terminate of energy performance in a house is air tightness yeah, and then I Met a builder at a conference and We were just introducing each other and it's like what do you do and I'm like, oh build energy efficient homes and We're building you know, we build them really airtight and I was banging on about all this and he's like you should really go and do the passive house Trades person course before he kills someone And so and he's a builder in New Zealand. Yeah, yeah, actually I hadn't seen him for years that I caught up with him earlier this year at a conference And it was yeah to because he's been you know, he's been following and I'm like I still remember that conversation because that is So I got really serious about really knowing what I'm talking about with this stuff because passing us gives you those Tools yeah, and that led to lots of other things to that have kind of Broadened my building science knowledge. Yeah Wow mate Jackson that is phenomenal way we haven't spoken to someone with the background like you and I Think when I said the pieces in my head and the puzzle started to fit was when started talking about your journey and business and things like that The biggest thing that it highlighted for me and we're probably gonna go totally off script now You've got a very strong business acumen background to yourself As well as a construction background, but almost prior to construction Yeah, you know as I said judging you from afar and seeing you business It looks really strong the way you communicate the way you do things Just seems on another level within the industry. I'm not you know this podcast is gonna go there So I apologize to anyone that takes offense to this but it's been very interesting because I thought you know the reason we reached out. We love what you do. We love Jeff philosophy the openness the transparency and stuff But I could see there's something special about what made you you like there was something there that we needed to talk to you about You know that that made you the builder that you are and the business person that you are and obviously it's that business background Yeah, and then you know the thoughtfulness behind building and construction and waste because we're big on that Jackson We've run a few articles around there was a study done by the green council of Australia And that was saying there's about 26,000 dollars or something worst of worth of waste materials on average that comes out at every single home I could be wrong. You probably know the stat better than me, but there was this. Oh, I'll have the exact exact answer in about eight or eight months We're doing a study at the moment where we're not running it, but we look part of it We're all of our skip bins are being provided by this one company and instead of doing we have a different system that where People come and collect the recyclable waste So we're just putting that to one side for a minute and we're putting all of the waste into Skip bins the ship ends are being taken to a waste facility That they're then separating all the waste out of the bins and they're weighing in cataloging it And then the stuff that can be recycled will go off to be recycled yeah, and then the stuff that's marginal they're going to They're sending that off to Kind of remember the name of the organization But they will work through trying to like get what can be got out of it to be recycled and then in the remainder There's a few different options for it one is landfill that's like the last And then the other one is Thing at Singapore yeah, they burn a lot of their waste to generate energy And then they've got a method for doing that that doesn't actually release anything toxic to the environment So now looking at all of that but the net result is that at the end we're going to get this big catalog of Out of this project there was like this many times or two This many times of possible this whatever it is hopefully it's not tons Yeah, yeah, of waste that yeah, I mean these different categories. Yeah, you can then put a price on Wow mate You're a legend mate, please get back in touch with this when you have this stuff We are so passionate about this stuff and we started the whole thing was I think it all started when we started the good builder And Jackson you might not even know mate, but we started at only in January this year and we met up We've got some you know good connections in the industry and we met up with these guys from Biax foundations and they do the Disciclable plastic So yeah, probably you know you'd be you know more across it than me and they they started to talk to us about waffle pods And that's when my rabbit hole has never stopped You know and it goes into the contaminated land field and all of this and building the future and you know I've got kids and you've got four and you start to think about this stuff and what we're doing and and how the whole Like the whole of Australia does rely on construction and then we do You know, there's there's a lot of responsibility on our shoulders. So yeah, I'm trying to piece this all together But that's basically why when when we saw you Jackson my wife saw you as I said at the beginning She's like there's something different about this guy and we started watching you the way you spoke and listen to a few pods and you know The way you build and then the way you seem to run business was just Really interesting to us so yeah, so for the builders out there for a community because we do have about 25,000 that sort of Listen to us and sort of get across our platforms. Do you think your building your business background was it was a big part of your success? Jackson, you know, you just weren't you know, yeah, I think that the thing that I know is particularly Working with trades Yeah, also no across the board is that I think I've come with a much more open mind about You know, this can be done this can be better and it will be better. Yeah and we've we've Developed a really Systemized business because I've had the benefit of you know my first business I knew that I should systemize it and I didn't and that meant there were a lot of missed opportunities Yeah, and then a you know, I went and worked for the commercial builder who was a very systemized business Yeah, and basically got to see all the things that I thought I should be doing actually in practice and was like ah This is the future and then I went and then I went and Turned around a business. Yeah, yeah, and that was basically by putting in systems phenomenal So when with without business We I said a lot when we hire a site manager Because usually site managers are used to an attitude of oh that went wrong I will just wait till next week when someone can come back to fix it. I'm like, no, no, just ring them up. Get them here today. Yeah, it can be done. They can do it. Yeah, yeah. You know, I don't know when trades trades, I mean, our trades are really good. It's only ever occurs when we have a new trade come through and we haven't kind of got them into our way of doing things yet. Yeah. We book all our trades a month in advance. Yeah. And we have a follow-up system that keeps the communication right up with them. Like wow. You know, three weeks time because sometimes things do move by day here or a day there. But yeah, the point is that for a month we've been talking with this trade about we need you on site. Yeah. And so sometimes without regular trades they're all really good. The new trades occasionally they'll call up on the day, oh, I've got it going. No, I'm up. And my line's always the same and it's the same line that I give to site managers. You're either prioritising us or you're prioritising somebody else. Yeah. And yeah. And did that guy ring you up last night and need something done today? But did he ring you a month ago? Yeah. And the thing is that that always results in them changing their mind about where they're going to go for today. Yeah. And it's as far as having that the system behind what we do puts us in a powerful position where we need to have those sorts of discussions, which is more than that was us to run on time. Yeah. And the biggest, the thing that I learned early with construction is you look around at like a lab economic history. That's a whole other story we're going to go there. Wow. That seems pretty deep right now. Yeah. That's cool. And you look at just the short term history of people just going broke and usually they this the symptoms are pretty similar. They've got lots of builds on the go, lots of clients that say their builds haven't progressed and now their build has gone broke. And that when you have everything standing still on site, you're not making money. Yeah. And I after this I'm going out to site to do a site tour with our booting designers because our booting designers are brilliant, but we do every month we go and I take them on a site tour and just point out like how their designs are playing out in the real world. And it's always fun for the site managers if I rock up on one of those sites and there's no one there because then I get a phone call like why is that one here like there's something happening every single day. Yeah. Because it's something happening on site and I'm spending money to keep the clients money, to keep the job moving. Yeah. Then that means that we're making money because the job is going to get through the completion. Yeah. And having having such a strong system around that I think it's one part of how we've not only done well, but also traded really well through COVID. Yeah. Because we, you know, the team of shortages just did not touch us. And the only reason they didn't touch us was because we forecasted our work a long-range advance and we communicated really well with our suppliers, but we also communicated with our clients. Like we said to our clients, we've told our suppliers this job is going ahead. That's how we can be so confident about when we're starting and when we're getting materials. Yeah. In order to do that, we have to work together to get you to contract by this date. Yeah. And so to get to contract by this date, we have to have done these things back here. And we're always talking in June. We have to have all these selection stuns so that we can get engineering results and go to go to contract to the end of July. It was the home we would have grabbed, certainly sped up that process. Yeah. But it was that was the thing that kept us on the straight and narrow. Yeah. And yes, it did get a lot harder with trades during COVID, because the trades were getting pushed and pulled all over the place. And, and you know, yes, we have our trades that we've worked with for a decade now in some cases. Yeah. And they they really prioritized us. But that didn't mean that they weren't getting, you know, they weren't copying it from every every fly by night, who was suddenly starting a booting company and trying to, you know, trying to catch in on the profit list, boo. So the we really noticed that that just came out in burnout. Yeah. I reckon I made more mental health calls to trades during that sort of 2021, 22 period. Yeah. And any other type of call. They allow a lot of the time the trades have it from me. It was he's on shit and see how that going. Good on you. Yeah. That's a good leader Jackson, you know, the direct. Yeah. It's cool. Do you think they still have PTSD over the COVID period? Up here in Queensland, I talked to a few builders and they still talk about it. Really? Yeah. I don't know. We we know it. I wouldn't say so. I mean, all of our trades, the only thing that we find is when we bring new trades on, yeah, getting them up to our standard is takes a lot more work than it used to. Okay. And you could go, oh, you know, all the trades are, like, well, no, that's not true. There are plenty of good trades, but there are also some really burnt out ones that have kind of lost their, they get up and go. Yeah. It's still, it's still there. You just, when they come onto our sites, we're going to say, hey, like, we're one of those sites where like, we really, we really honor you doing it really well. And yeah, we really, you know, if I go pay you extra because you quoted to do the cheap shitty version of what you can do, what I want is the really good version of what you do. And if it's going to cost me a few more, then I would rather wear that and not have a warranty callback. Yeah. Then absolutely. Then have you stick to your price and, you know, and then have a hundred warranty callbacks because people don't realize like warranty callbacks are just like it's easy to view it a house cheap. Anyone can do it. Yeah. But there's always a sting in the tail. And often, if, you know, clients, clients are, you know, they, clients more and more know what they're looking at, which I think is fantastic. Yeah. But it just reinforces that need of like, just pay to get it done properly the first time. Yeah. And then you won't have to do it again. And, and, and the lost cost of warranties, like even, like I'm a very numbers driven person. You see, I've really struggled to, like really pinpoint exactly what we're spending, um, warranties. Now, I know it's a lot less than a lot of other builders. Yeah. Um, the tricky one is the hours because everyone in one team is on a salary. It's hard to sort of go, well, how many hours did you spend going back and forth with that trade to sort out that problem? Yeah. But it all adds up. And it all, yeah, it all costs money. And so we certainly, we run our process at the moment is like it's three strikes and we don't use you anymore. Yeah. Sort of like, you buy it, you buy a heater three complied about the same tried it. Sort of go, all right, let's, let's stop asking them to price jobs. Yeah. Wow. Because that's, yeah, that's a, I love it. It's a sad reality. But, no, no, no, no, sounds Jackson. You got to have to go. It sounds very, yeah, I like it. It sounds really good. Like, it sounds like you have guardrails and things and expectations for everything that you do. And it's something that I see you do. And that's why this is the conversation. And this is why we wanted to talk to you and this is, we, this is honestly everybody our first meeting together. Actually, we jumped on a camera and started a podcast. We did. But that's what we saw. We, we just saw something different in you and, and you could tell by the way you run the product and the way the confidence we would you talk about your product and you can just, you can feel it. I know that, I know that sounds a bit woo woo, but you can feel it, mate. And all the way up here in Queensland, you can feel it. The other, the other thing I actually wanted to talk to you about because there's a lot of chatter in our community and across platforms that we, you know, go on these, these healthy homes. And the one thing you pointed out, which was really cool, Jackson was, you know, some of the homes being built today of a mold risen and things like that within you didn't exactly say these words, but I actually wanted to totally agree with that because it was only last week we were out at eight development here called Harmony by Avid Property. I shouldn't probably say that, but anyway, um, yeah, we started, we started filming Jackson. We were just doing like a bit of an update because we do the news and I was putting on my best news presenter and, and trying to present the news, which we did. And this builder said, well, a carpenter said, what are you doing? And I said, oh, away from the good builder, this is what we do. And he goes, I wouldn't be doing any good building around here. He goes, you look at all these homes, this was really bad. It shocked me. He as you look at all these homes out here, they're all fucked. He said, they have mold behind the walls within 12 months. And I actually also heard that from another custom builder who had been asked to look behind the walls of a particular volume builder's bill. And there was mold with like within two weeks or something like that. It's absolutely nuts. And like we live in these homes. And before I started the good build, I honestly didn't think about this stuff. I'll be honest with you, Jackson. And the more I'm digging into the industry, I'm like, this is a problem. You know, with the good builder part of what I want to do is like, I want to try and help protect the industry. You know, I don't want 25 years from now, Jackson, the people look back and either already bagging our industry at the moment for building too slow and all the things that we do. And then 25 years from now, they look back and go, look at all the diseases they caused because of all the mold written houses that they delivered. It's just insane. But so like a healthy home, Jackson, how do we achieve them? And what exactly is one? Because a lot of people are talking about it, but I can see you actually do it. Yeah. Well, in a nutshell, how you achieve it is pretty straightforward. And it's funny that if you, if you follow the pillars of passive house construction, yeah, you'll be yourself a healthy home. Even if you're not doing a certified passive house and it's one area where sometimes a might not be the most popular guy around the traps at the Australian Passive House Association, but I'm not the only one who is happy to say, like, you don't have to build a passive house to live in good housing. But the pillars of passive house are really straightforward. Yeah. You have a complete thermal envelope. So that means like in practical terms, install your insulation properly and make sure that it's not creased. It doesn't have gaps and that it joins together everywhere. Use high performance windows. Yeah. Stop, stop buying single glazed aluminum framed windows. Yeah. Double glazed windows, UPC or thermally broken frames or even timber. Yeah. Timur is ultra expensive, but it is way better than aluminum. Yeah. And then thermal rich free construction. And thermal rich free construction is the one that causes nearly all of the mold problems. Yes. Very, very large percentage. And it's the least understood concept in construction in Australia. Yeah, okay. Okay. And then the last two are air tightness. Now air tightness, you gotta be careful what you do with air tightness. Because if you make a building really air tight without considering the fifth pillow, which is mechanical heat recovery ventilation, you can create a lot of condensation problems. So you might make it thermal rich free and a great insulation and great windows. And then you make it too air tight. Yeah. And you could then create condensation problems. And most importantly, really poor air quality. So high CO2 levels. Yeah. So that's where mechanical heat recovery ventilation comes in. And there are some things in the building code, some mechanisms around permanent mechanical ventilation, which is different from heat recovery ventilation, but that as a builder, the easiest way to take the box is just to put mechanical heat recovery ventilation in. Yeah. But if you're just like, shit, I'm listening to this, I'm building a, I don't want to build a house that I'm going to get sued when it goes moldy. Because the thing is that in the building code now, there is the mechanism there that if the homeowner can prove that the wall or whatever system in the building is producing a molding that's greater than three. Yeah. You, which is done through Wolfier analysis, which is something that my other business does. What can we talk about that Monday Jackson? Can I have you back up? Absolutely. I'm looking at the time and I'm like, man, I could talk to you all day. You have so much knowledge. Yeah, like anyway, please. Yeah, we're going to have you back on, but sorry, continue. That was. No, to make sure that if you're going to pick three of the five, do double bridge free, complete thermal overload, high performance windows. Love it. Yeah, because you can now get sued if you build a long home. Did not know. There's a lot of mechanisms that have to be ticked. Yeah. But that particular net is being closed and we'll keep getting closed in subsequent building codes. Yeah. I suspect that part of the reason that building codes are being delayed a bit is because of what we're seeing with my other business, which is we've seen a big uptick in lawyers and like consultants calling to ask for professional opinions on modern condensation causes in particular buildings. And none of them have gone to court yet. And some of them have just ended up calling call. Yep. And some of them have, you know, they've resulted in us doing a little bit of work and then we've heard nothing about it since. So it's a growing thing and more and more homeowners are being aware of it. Yeah. And connecting the dots on how you like this mold is a side of a polybule house. Yeah. And part of it is that our codes are poor. Yep. The other part is that is the focus on cheap housing. And the thing is that you can do, I mean, I say, a whole housing. Yeah. And build them properly. Yep. Just for whatever reason, the one's no one's all that interested in really doing it at scale. And that's certainly something that I'm trying to do is I'm slowly gearing myself up to get into doing what I can do. What? If I could do one subdivision of like one to eight townhouses, also five passives. If I could do one and then me here, I'd be very happy, Matt. Because for me, that's that's plays right into my wife, which is improving the quality of the housing stocking South Australia. And the the trick at the moment is just finding the right blocks to do it on. You're an impressive dude, Jackson. Thanks. Nothing else to say. You're an impressive man. Mate, I want to know more about Wolfie. I was going to make a bad dad joke when you said, you know, things are things are growing. I was like, yes, quite literally, you know, I shouldn't have said that. But I'm so passionate about this too. I'm going to get you back on if you don't mind. And I'd love to talk about your other business and what you're seeing. And for me, that also again clarifies another piece of the puzzle for me. A builder that owns a company that's, you know, looks at condensation and mold and provides reports on whether that's growing in houses. Yeah. I mean, if you've got that as a side business and you're building homes, I think, you know, you've got your nose pretty clean. I'm pretty good, mate. Yeah. So that's that's phenomenal. And yeah, the breakdown on, you know, what makes a healthy home and I love you. I love people that have opinions and can start a conversation around it. It doesn't necessarily have to be certified passive to be healthy. Oh, no. There's a few conversations floating around like that up here as well with some good builders that remind me very much. Yeah. Actually, you're a bit more business minded, but very cool. I do have one more question for you because we do have to wrap it up. And I wish I didn't have to wrap this up as I said, but I promise I'm going to have you back on and listen to what I have been back on. It's so interesting. You know, we called the good builder. We actually only got through about two questions. Yeah, I've been watching the questions. I'm like, yeah, that's great. But you kind of nailed them all, Jackson, but like this, like this, I guess, I don't want to kind of like, you've said so much good stuff and there's so much to taking. I don't want to glance over some of this stuff. I want to go deep with you on some of these topics. So I'll reconnect, you know, after this podcast, I'm going to send you an email with a few of my thoughts and things I would like to go deeper on because mate, you're a wealth and all. I don't want to take up all your time because you got two fantastic businesses and you've got to go support them and sort them out, not sort them out, but keep them flourishing. Don't worry about me, but when you got time, please jump back on with me. But mate, you know, we call the good builder. And I think you've kind of identified if people listen to this podcast, what a good builder is. But what makes a good builder in your view? It's the key learning and be really open-minded. Yeah. I think that of the good, nearly all of the good things that have happened with Ben Jury and with my other business, all because I just wanted to keep learning and keep doing it better and keep finding out how to do it better. Yeah. And like if I see someone, another builder doing something better, my first reaction is, well, I didn't think of that. And I quickly followed by, man, that doing really well. And then it's like, well, how can I emulate that part of what they're doing? Because I think it's better than what I'm doing. So I think that's it. is like just be, if you are very open-minded and open to constant improvement, then that makes you a good builder. I love it. I love it. There is. I come from a business sort of background as well. Jackson and it's interesting. I've come into the industry and it is at times a bit like that. A bit closed-minded at times and we've done the way we've done things because it's been done like this for 50 years. Yeah. Again. That's when we saw your staff and we were like, "No, this guy is pushing the limits and he's doing things others won't." You could just tell by the way you talk that you do have this continually improvement mindset that I think that kind of, not I'm trying to sum up your words, but he's what you're all about. I saw the little spark in your eye when you talked about it for builders doing something better than you. From this conversation, mate, I can 100% say, "Hen on heart, you have no ego, but your competitive." I love it. I love that. I could see it and you're like, "Oh, I could see it." You're like, "He's about to say, I'm going to go find out." You could see it in you and I think that's cool. Let's have a bit of friendly competition and do things well. I love your ads or fire out Jackson. I wish I could have been better prepared for that part and maybe had a pre-meeting because then I wouldn't have been so excited about different things that we'd have got through the whole pot. But mate, that was freaking awesome. I really would love you back on. Thank you so much for your time, Jackson. All the best. Well, we won't say all the best because I'll see you again. I'll even hunt you down. I'll come down to South Australia to talk to you if I have to because you're amazing. All the best. We're doing Euro builders and Wolfie, you're other business, but we're going to have you back on and talk about those things. Thank you very much. No worries. Thanks for having me.