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Mitä tänään syötäisiin? Mitä teede kuu jäkapion tyhjää ja ruokaa pitäis sana pöytään nopeasti? Miten selvitä viikon ruokahuollosta voittajana? Maa minna kuukka ja muun muassa näihin asioihin syven tunnettujen vieräden kanssa koruun, mitä tänään syötäisiin podcastissa. Kuten mitä tänään syötäisiin podcast spotifassa ja satakaisuja arjon ruokahuollon ikui suskysymykseen. Nyt kannattaa katsastaan. Amalla plus katsastusasemalla siinulle hämmästystävän edullinen tarjous, joka on voimassa vain rajoiteitun ajan. Klikkaa pluspistefi valitsee asema, syötä rekisteritunus ja varaa aikasi huippu halvalla tai kurvaa suoraan plus asemalle. Tämä on katsastusasemalla, jossa on hienoa hienoa katsastusasemalla, jossa on hienoa katsastusasemalla ja minkäkoja. Se on 1978. Tämä hienoa katsastusasemalla on katsastusasemalla, jossa on hienoa katsastusasemalla, jossa on hienoa katsastusasemalla, pekkenkin erillä leuromueen peruretkoissa, covering persecuta, k Watch Glouden 65 chertyt kuvaa vacinkケJA, joka tulevat k Arm goingatesolda olisinkin ja tästä riittämee heFP-asioilakkoja envolationsa sujehti jo tongues ja tästä telleutissa niin se beneficialia, ja kuvai palastella, mutta sinä olleet ovat merkkaasemppi goddamn lovelyinili透alla daski. Tää on kuten johonnoilla, mutta pelante swimsin pit bölских liimi on enjoyable, riikin valmistus, mutta vain sen했다 hyvään! Se on hyvä unoitu, bija suunnasta pyydlex. Kyllä myös monricia viikki liquidon telerikään, paljon terillä johteen kanssa ja kohonnen. Se on suunnasta pyydelle, kun tämän kohonnistamme on vahvaan. Ja ei ole saada, että johonnistamme on johteen kanssa. Tämä on jääntä. In 1950s on tosi pyydelleen kohonnaa, johonnoilla on tosi paljon kohonnaa. Sitten on tämän pyydelleen, kun tämän täystä on pitänyt, johonnoilla on pitänyt, kun tämän pyydelleen kohonnistamme on johonnoilla, kun tämän pyydelleen kohonnistamme on johonnoilla, kun tämän pyydelleen kohonnistamme on johonnoilla. Tämä on johonnoilla, kun tämän pyydelleen kohonnistamme on johonnoilla, kun tämän pyydelleen kohonnistamme on johonnoilla, kun tämän pyydelleen kohonnistamme on johonnoilla, kun tämän pyydelleen kohonnistamme on johonnoilla, kun tämän pyydelleen kohonnistamme on johonnoilla, kun tämän pyydelleen kohonnistamme on johonnoilla, kun tämän pyydelleen kohonnistamme on johonnoilla, His family decided for religious reasons to retreat deep into Siberia's vast, dense, evergreen forest, the Taiga. They lived there in such complete isolation. That by the time these geologists caught up with them in the 1970s, they were not even aware that World War Two had taken place. I'm joined today by Sophie Pinkham. She's the author of a fascinating new book called The Oak and The Large, a forest history of Russia and its empires. I tell the story of how Russia's vast forests have shaped the country's history and culture. Many things can happen out there, and today we're going to explore just one of them. When the geologists caught up with the leakulves, they found there were four of them. The father, carp, two sons, Dimitri and Savin, and two daughters, Natalia and Nagafia. Nagafia was the youngest, and she'd actually been born after the family had moved out to this remote camp. So this was the only lifestyle she'd ever known. It was really hard to eke out an existence in this harsh climate. The family lived all together in a log cabin with just one room, and for food, they survived off what they could forage from the forest, and whatever they managed to grow, which was not much. It was unbelievably, unbelievably tenuous. They had run out of carrots a long time ago, so their skin was apparently this very eerie, kind of white color, from beta-carotene deficiency, I guess. And Nagafia, the daughter who was the youngest of the family, had actually never tasted bread. She didn't even know what bread was. They still had a garden when the geologists came, but things were getting very dicey. They had a number of famines, or family famines. The mother of the family died in one of these famines, at which point they were reduced to eating the boiled leather from their shoes. And there would be disasters like mice eating their seeds during the winter, right? And they just had no way of getting any more seeds. So if they would find two seeds that had slipped between the cracks of a board, they would hail that as a miracle, because it might allow them to continue the cycle. Even their speech sounded strange, because they had been isolated for so long. One of the geologists described it as a slow, blurred, cooing, which may have also been because they were losing some teeth. One of the kind of remarkable things about them, when the geologists met up with them, is there were a whole stretches of history that had passed that they were not aware of? Like, am I right in thinking they did not understand that the Second World War had happened? Yes, absolutely. They didn't really know about it, and how would they know about it? They were deep in the forest. There was no one to tell them. And maybe they saw planes going overhead from time to time, but they didn't really know about that. They were like ripven wrinkles, kind of like Soviet ripven wrinkles. It was as if they had been asleep and missed the entire Soviet period. They missed World War II. The greatest trauma arguably in Russian history, right, that had affected probably every single other person in Russia had been affected by the Russian Revolution and then by the Second World War, but not the Likovs. They were just busy, you know, trying to grow some more wheat and keep the mice from getting their seeds. So the Likovs were living this unbelievably difficult, challenging life, barely able to survive, in some cases, not surviving. And the question was, why were they doing this? To explain, we have to do a little bit of a detour into Russian history, because the Likovs were something called old believers. The story here was that way back in the 1600s, there was the schism in the Russian Orthodox Church. The Church's leader at the time decided to standardize the religious practices of the faith, to change the way that worship happened, and the old believers said, no way. They made changes that seemed very small to us, almost absurdly small, so a change in the spelling of the name of Jesus, and then also a change from two to three in the number of fingers that you raised for the cross. So right now, you know, at this moment in history, it's hard to imagine dying in protest over such small changes, but for the old believers, this was, you know, a matter of their faith in God, of their commitment to God, and of their eternal salvation. So many of them chose to die rather than to adopt the reforms. Others retreated into the wilderness, the wilderness in Russia being primarily the forest, and the forest became a kind of a holy sanctuary for old believers where they could preserve their way of life. The old believers had a lot of rules about what you could wear, how you kept your facial hair for men that meant long unshaven beards, and there were rules about what you could eat. That was part of the reason why the youngest daughter Agafia had never eaten or even seen bread before, because she wasn't allowed to. And so amazingly, when the geologists encounter these people, you know, it's an instinct to share food with people that you've just encountered, especially when they're dressed in brags and their skin is a weird color from severe vitamin deficiency, etc. So the impulse of the geologists, naturally I think was to sort of offer to share their bread and to share things like jam, but the old believers said, no, no, we're not allowed that. We can't touch that. We can't have bread. But the leak holds in their ancestors had actually not always lived in complete isolation. The late 1800s and early 1900s, was this relatively tolerant time in Russia for old believers, so the family lived in a settlement with other followers of their faith. It was in Siberia and it was still pretty remote, but it wasn't just them. But then came the Russian Revolution and the coming of the Soviet government. And that's when everything changed. This is when the family decided to retreat deep into the Taiga, where Agafia was born. Up to that time, the Likovs had been living in a community like most old believers. They sort of kept apart from non-old believers society, but they had trading links, right? So they were able to get things like carrots, a bit of a deficiency, or salt. So they were able to get these things. And they sort of gradually isolated themselves in stages. But they were living in a wooded area that was declared as a pavietnik or a nature preserve. And they were told that if they wanted to continue to live there, they would have to work as sort of rangers, like park rangers, for this nature preserve. That, of course, was also sort of not within the sphere of things that God would allow them to do. And so they just retreated even farther. And so their ultimate goal was to be beyond the reach of the Soviet state in every way, to the point where people didn't know where they were or if they were there at all. And they succeeded in that. We're going to take a quick break, but when we return, the old believers meet a brave new world, and the Soviet-wripped fanwinkles become celebrities. In a way, she's a reality TV star. She's a Russian, old believer, survivalist reality TV star. And the paradox of that also is riveting. That's after this. What does this society do? What do you think the people of the world need to be aware of? What does the human world have to do with it? I'm a human being, and I'm a human being, I'm a human being, I'm a human being, what does this society do? I'm a human being, what does this society do? The society has been Spotify and the world has been actively promoting it. I'm a triple-dead, triple-dead. I'm a triple-dead, I'm a triple-dead, I'm a triple-dead, I'm a triple-dead, I'm a triple-dead. Everything changed for the Leakolves in the years after the geologist. They discovered them. Tragically three of the siblings died in the early 80s, two from kidney failure, probably from their diets, and another sibling died of pneumonia. The father, carp, died in 1988 in his sleep, and then only a gaffee of his left. And over this same period, a journalist named Vasily Peskov began visiting the Leakolves. He got to know them over the course of about ten years and wrote a book about his experience, called Lost in the Tiger. It was this huge sensation in Russia and even made the family into sort of celebrities. In Russia, in the late 80s or the 1980s and the 1990s, these people captured the imagination because Russians were suffering again. They weren't suffering, of course, on the scale of the Second World War, the Russian Revolution. But even a dirty Gorbachev in the 1980s, the food supply was sort of erratic. There were these endless lines that were notorious in the Soviet Union. People were quite focused on growing their own vegetables and other food stuff whenever they could. There was hyperinflation in the 1990s, the currency collapsed. And in the midst of that instability for Russians, I think that the Leakolves success in standing outside of history of never becoming prey to oligarchs of not experiencing economic inequality was very annoying. The Gapia is still alive today and she's still living in the family compound. I mean, can you talk a little bit about what do we know about what's going on with her today? As they got older and older, it became more and more unrealistic for them to live without help. No matter how, I don't know, no matter how feisty she is, no 80-year-old woman can support herself completely alone in the middle of the wilderness. It takes a lot of strength, it takes a lot of work. So, carbon and Gapia gradually relaxed their strictures on what they could use, what they could do on contact with the outside world as time went on. And Gapia has become a big celebrity. One thing that I thought was really, really hilarious as I was researching her story is that there are all of these AI generated, like, slop fake video diaries of Gapia on YouTube. The question is the most misguided and freakish use of AI I've ever seen maybe because the whole point of her story is that she is living without technology or is supposed to be living without technology. But reporters love visiting her and ever since the 90s, ways have been devised for her to ask for help from the outside world. She has an emergency, they gave her a panic button that she can press, although she was chastised for pressing the panic button too often and had to have it explained to her how much it cost each time it's then the helicopter there. And at this point, it's quite a paradoxical situation because on one hand she's famous for being this icon of wilderness survival. But at this point, she is effectively sort of a ward of the church and the state together, who are working to ensure her safety and her survival. Another funny detail that didn't make it into my book or into the Guardian Longview that I did is that she is living under the flight path of the Bikonor space station in Kazakhstan. So they have to send someone to warn her every time they do a launch from Bikonor because debris falls into her settlement. And people who have gone there have found it so bizarre because on one hand she's saying, oh, I can't eat jam. But then on the other hand, there are like chunks of space debris in her yard, you know, it's incredibly surreal. And she recently, as a celebrity, was gifted a new house that was paid for by Alik diribasca, who is one of Russia's kind of richest and most powerful businessman and who's from that region. So I think he kind of adopted her as a project and there was news in the Russian media about Agafia sending a message to Putin, inviting Putin to come over and check out her new house. So that is the current extremely surreal reality of Agafia's life in the wilderness. Speaking of Putin, Agafia has become a sort of influencer of choice for some of Russia's far right nationalists. My feeling is that Agafia's story now resonates with a narrative that has become very popular, especially among Russian nationalists and the Russian right wing of Russia as a kind of arc, like as a Noah's arc, right? Russia has a kind of arc that is sustaining a pure version of European Christian civilization while the rest of the world kind of degenerates and goes to hell. There's a fondness, for example, in Russia for calling Europe, "Gayropa", which is part of the Kremlin's homophobic campaigns, which are getting more and more intense every day. But in this narrative of the Russian arc, Russia is preserving Christian civilization. And I think that this idea that one family in isolation in the forest would risk death by malnutrition, just to maintain the purity of their religious practices, resonates with that Russian narrative as well. And it has more and more significance as Russia becomes more and more isolated on the world stage. But the legal story also has wider appeal to, especially in today's world. I mean, the story is very compelling in my experience for everyone who hears it. Everyone is delighted, it's fascinating. riveted by this story because I think that it holds the promise that if you go deep enough into nature, you can separate yourself from history. You can separate yourself from politics. It's going to be extremely, extremely difficult, but you can kind of choose to detach, which is more and more a luring promise. I thank for many people in our modern world. Well, Sophie, thank you so much for chatting with me about the legal family and about your book The Oak in the Large, of Forest History of Russia and its empires. Thanks so much. Thank you so much for having me. It was a pleasure to talk to you. Check out Sophie's book The Oak and the Large, of Forest History of Russia and its empires. It's totally fascinating. I've come away with it with a huge true read list, tons of books, tons of old, so good movies to watch. Check it out. We will link it in the episode description along with Sophie's Long Read and the Guardian about the legal family. Our podcast is a co-production of Atlas Obscura and Sirius XM podcasts. The production team for this episode includes Dylan Thurris, Kelly McEvers, Doug Baldinger, Camille Stanley, Johanna Mayer, Manola Morales, Jerome Campbell, Alexa Lim, Casey Holford, and Luce Fleming. Our theme music is by Sam Tindall. If you're digging our show, give us a good review and rating wherever you get your podcasts. And make sure to follow us so you never miss an episode. We have a lot of time. I'm Amanda McGowan. I'll see you next time. [Music] [Music]