The Culture That Converts Even the Biggest Cynics with former WD-40 CEO Garry Ridge

"You know, I used to introduce myself. "G'day, I'm Gary Ridge. "I'm the consciously incompetent, "probably wrong and roughly right, "chairman and CEO of WD-40 company, "and I need all the help I can get." - Gary Ridge is the embodiment of what it means to be a great CEO. That he took the time to write down how he learned to lead with such humility, I might add, means that we all get to learn how to lead like him. And that can only be a good thing. Said me on the back of Gary's new book, "Any Dumbass Can Do It." And having him on this podcast was such a treat. I've known Gary for a bunch of years, and I have learned so much from him. And today was no exception. We talked about some of the specific things he did that took WD-40, yes, WD-40, from a successful company to a wildly successful company. And it's worth noting. It is a remarkable place to work. People love working there, and the results prove it. If you're a senior leader that wants to build a great corporate culture, this conversation is absolutely essential listening. And for everyone else who wants to work in a culture where we feel loved and seen and love coming to work, well, it's also essential, because we have to know what a great culture looks like if we're gonna demand that somebody build it for us. This is a bit of optimism. (upbeat music) This episode is sponsored by Portia and their new McCann, which is actually my car. I had it before they called. It's actually my car, and I love it. You know, I quote you all the time, right? I believe so. (laughing) There's a story you told me that I have told so many times of a time where you on an analyst's call, and the analyst said to you, "Gary, you missed your numbers. "You know the story." And you said, "No, I didn't. "I missed your numbers." "I missed your numbers." You ran a public company for how many years? 25. 25 years you ran WD-40. And public company, but you ran it in the way public company should be run, which is not beholden to the shareholders, but rather taking care of your employees and taking care of your customers. That was how you ran this company. And I love using WD-40 as an example, because it's not glamorous, it's not tech. It's basically a one product company. I know you have line extensions, but it's basically a one product company. And I remember when I first visited your offices, if I dare say, it was a bit dumpy. And it defied all of the conventional wisdoms of what great culture is, which is flat screen TVs, free food, you know, all of this stuff. It was a dumpy office and morale was high and people loved each other. And it was home to them. And this is one of the reasons I love you as a leader. And one of the reasons I love WD-40 as an example, which is it defies all of the conventional wisdoms of what a lot of modern leaders think makes a great company, especially young leaders. Where do you learn that? Well, it went back to when I first met Ken Blanchard. You know, I became CEO in 1997. And the goal was to take the blue and yellow can with a little red top to the world. And I kind of knew with help of friends and people in the organization, how to market the product. Were you an employee first or you came in as to be CEO? No, I'd been with the company 10 years before that. I started in Australia in 1987, got it. They asked me to move to the US in 1994. In 1997, the CEO tired. And for my sins, I got to be CEO. I knew how to do that. But what was on my mind, Simon, was we were gonna have a company that the sun would never set on. How were we going to create an environment where people knew and felt like they belonged, knew what they did, mattered and made a difference, could make choices and there was a low level of fear. And I didn't know how to do it. And then I met one of our dear friends, Dr. Ken Blanchard. I went back to school. I was already CEO. Who wrote the one minute manager? And many other books. And many others, yeah. And I went back to school and he was one of my professors. And I learned the... So you went back to school figuratively? Yeah, I enrolled in a master's degree at USD. Oh, so you actually went back to school? Yes. Oh, okay. Which was quite funny, because I was already two years as CEO of a US public company. And I go into the classroom and they say, "What the hell are you doing here? "You're already CEO." And I said, "I wanna confirm what I think I know "and learn what I don't know. "And there's a lot I don't know." And I got to get alongside Ken and learn the essence of servant leadership, which are making people feel like they actually belong. I don't think people appreciate that leadership is a learnable, teachable skill. And some people learn it young. They have a coach, a parent. Something happens in their early career, early life that teaches them this. So the rest of us, you're gonna have to do the work. Otherwise, you're only gonna learn from the people you work for. And that's kind of a lottery. If you're really lucky and work for somebody amazing, you'll learn all the great lessons. But I think a lot of us learn a lot of bad lessons. I always tell people, if you wanna become a leader, you have to study. And you literally, as CEO, go back to school, proving it's never too late. - It's never too late. - So what were some of the things that you learned from Ken that you're this relatively young CEO, not you've been in the job for a couple of years already, what were some of the changes that you knew you had to make to the culture of WD-40 to build the company that you imagined? - Well, first I had to change myself. And the first part of that course I did was understanding who you are as a leader. And now that I'm refired, not retired, I coach CEOs. And one of the things that I think is amazing is they don't realize how their behavior impacts the people around them. Because I don't think most CEOs get up every day, Simon, and say, "I'm gonna go to work today and be a jerk." I don't think they do that. But you're right, they're looking at successful people who have huge egos, little empathy, want to micromanage, think they have all the answers, don't really value learning, and they think that's the way to go. So the first thing was to learn who I was. And I had to change. I walked around for, I don't know, months with praise somebody written on my hand, because I had to get comfortable with the fact that it wasn't about me. It was about the people I had the privilege to lead. - What kind of leader were you prior? - Be brief, be bright, be gone. That was me. I was a turbo D on the disc scale. I really thought that I had to be command and control. And I pretty soon learned that my job was not to command and control. - I'll tell you a story. I'll leave the name out. I met this leader who, I met him at a conference, and he was asked to introduce me. And he was like doing his best impression of general pattern, was walking up and down the stage, talking like this and really loud, and he briefed me what you said. And he introduces me and I'm literally thinking to myself, what's with the general pattern impression? I go up, I do my thing. And then when I'm off the stage, he and I go off and we're just by ourselves walking down the hallway, leaving the conference. And he was humble and curious and asking me questions and really, really smart, you know? And I'm thinking to myself, you're amazing. What's with that? And you realize that wherever it came from in his career, he had made the same decision that for my credibility, I've got to be strong. I've got to be commanding. That way people will see me as a leader, blah, blah, blah. And it kept working, right? He kept getting promoting through his career. He wasn't, he was the number two person at the time. And he made it to the big job. And I thought to myself, this is so exciting. Finally, he got the job. He'll now relax, be his wonderful, fantastic, curious, inspiring self. And he didn't. He made it to the top job and he still kept up this weird general pattern thing. And, you know, he was effective and smart, but I don't think he commanded the kind of loyalty he could have or the kind of inspiration that he could have or the kind of innovation that he could have. If it keeps working to the point you get to CEO, which is exactly what happened to you, this, you describe yourself as not the leader you wanted to be, but it kept working. What was it that you finally make it to the big job? You'd think, well, it's gotten me here. I'm just going to keep going. What was it that you said to yourself, no? Now is the time to change. - You know, it's interesting. I was on a flight from Los Angeles to Sydney. And as you do when you fly, you take stuff to read. And I read two things. I read a quote that's associated to the Delay Llama. Our purpose in life is to make people happy. If we can't make them happy, at least don't hurt them. And then I read a second quote from Aristotle that says, "Pleasure in the job puts perfection in the work." And what I thought around me was, why aren't people enjoying what they're doing? And it really became clear to me that it was about the leadership. You know, how did we really create this atmosphere where people were going to belong? And, you know, I learned from people like you, like Ken and others that I was listening to all you guys, what you were preaching. And I'm thinking, this has to work. Why are these smart guys talking about it if it doesn't? Well, I was fortunate that I could actually try it. So we came up with a truly great purpose in the organization. Our purpose was to create positive lasting memories. That was to be the purpose of the organization. So what changed in my mind was I couldn't do this alone. And if we were going to expand to 176 countries around the world, which we did, and if the sun was never going to set on the people in the organization, I had to make sure that they are in an environment where they felt safe enough to make decisions and be brave. Because this is simple, but it's not easy and time is not your friend. And, you know, you've got to put the platform in place. I love one of the quotes you had in your book where it says, "Culture equals value plus behavior." Well, I took it and I adapted it. And I said, "Culture equals values plus behavior times consistency." Because a lot of people think that building great cultures in organizations is fairy dust. You sprinkle a little fairy dust on the organization, you bring in one training program, slap a few people around the head, tell them to behave differently and go away and things will change. They don't. This has to be something you work on day after day after day. So I really decided that I needed to change because I wasn't capable of being the leader I wanted to be leading the way I was, in the be brief, be bright, be gone area. And Simon, to be honest, it was scary. 'Cause I had to start saying, "I don't know." You know, I used to introduce myself. G'day, I'm Gary Ridge. I'm the consciously incompetent, probably wrong and roughly right chairman and CEO of WD-40 company. And I need all the help I can get. Now it's interesting when you ask people for help and you do it sincerely, how much help you get. - Yeah. The courage, 'cause it's easier to do the other. It's easier to put on the general pattern act. It's easier to be the strong commanding especially if you make it to that level, you have some degree of ambition and ego. You don't get there without it. It's the easier option to say, "I don't know." As you said, it's very, very scary for somebody who's supposed to represent. I mean, we all think our credibility comes from our intelligence or our ability to make good decisions, but it doesn't. So it raises the question then, where does the credibility of a leader come from? - Authenticity. - What does that mean in a modern context? - I think it means-- - It's an overused term. - Yeah, I think it means acting in a way that's true to your heart consistently. And that's what we have to do. I say, great leaders spend a lot of time in the stinky locker room. And unfortunately, a lot of leaders think they're corporate royalty. You saw our offices and then you saw our new offices as well. I remember having a fight basically with our architect when we were designing our new office. I said, my office is to be 10 by 12. And the plans came back four times with a bigger office for me. They said, now you're the CEO. You've got to have a bigger office. I said, no, I don't. We're not going to have bigger offices. We're not going to have private parking spaces. We're going to have a place where people feel comfortable that we are all there with one thing in mind. And that's to help each other succeed. That's why I called us a tribe, not a team. - I want to go down that path 'cause I find that really interesting. One of the things that I've changed in the way I talk about companies and teams since I started is how to refer to the group. And I used to say family, we're like a family. And one is confronted with the reality of a business, which is if it's a family, no one can ever be removed. No one can ever graduate to go work for another company. And the reality is, and I think this is the hardest lesson for a leader to learn. And it's one of the reasons why not everybody's qualified to be a leader, I hate to say it, because one of the hardest lessons a leader learns is I have to be loyal to the group before I'm loyal to an individual. I can sacrifice one person to save the group. I cannot sacrifice the group to save one person, which is an excruciating lesson to learn. And we try hard never to get to that point, but the reality is that's what it is. And so I'm confronted with, well, that's not family then, is it? Because family, it's forever. And so then you start adopting team, we're a great team, and you can trade players out and you can bring players in and players can go away. But even that team is very, for me, it's taken from the finite game. It's taken from this is winning and losing. I'm gonna put a team together for the transaction of this season and then I'm gonna change my mind next season. And I don't like that either. It's also wholly imperfect. Your use of the word tribe, I think captures exactly what we're trying to do, which is the loyalty and love we have for the family, but the infiniteness of the team that as you keep saying, you know, this is an ever-burning light. This we wanna keep this going forever. When did you discover the word tribe as being the perfect articulation of what a company should feel like and be like? - Well, when I think about a tribal leader, if you go back and you were to look at tribal leaders from the beginning of mankind, what was the responsibility of a tribal leader to be a learner and a teacher? What's the responsibility of a leader of an organization to be an ever learner and ever teacher? Because if we are not learning what we need to learn and teaching what we need to teach to the tribe members, the tribe's gonna go extinct. And then we had a just cause. Our just cause was a group of people that come together to protect and feed each other. That was our just cause as a tribe. So a tribe is not referring to any indigenous group. It's referring to where we all started from mankind. And then if you think about attributes of a tribe, a tribe has values, so I could talk about values. A tribe has people within it that have specialized skills. So everyone in the organization has something to give. They're warriors, right? They're there to protect and feed each other. There's a place of community and they love to celebrate. So I was able to look at these attributes and say if you're a member of our tribe, you will be a forever learner and ever teacher. We're gonna have values. We're gonna respect everybody in there. And the other thing we're gonna do is we're gonna be future focused. Because if a tribe leader is not future focused and they've put their tribe next to a lake that dries up, the tribe will have nothing to drink and they will die. So we have to be always looking to the future. But the number one essence, Simon's, was we are learners and teachers. We're forever learners, forever teachers. - By the way, that's magical. And as you said, a tribal leader has the responsibility for the protection and preservation of the tribe. And so money is important in an organization because that's the lake, that's the fuel, that's the sustenance. And if the money dries up, the tribe dies. There's a group of people we're talking to we're preaching to the converted. And they're just nodding and enjoying and finding new ways to say all the magical things that you and I both believe, which is great. There are also the cynics out there who go, sounds nice, sounds soft, sounds mushy. You're quoting the Dalai Lama and Aristotle. You know, good for you. We have to talk about it because it's the proof, which is you still believe in making money. You still believe in a successful company, but you just believe that you take care of the people and the money comes as opposed to focusing on the money and the people are, you're taking care of people is if you have the time and energy. It's not a nice to have. So let's talk about the performance of WD-40. - Sure. - How big was WD-40 when you came in? - Market cap about 300 million. - And when you left? - 3.6 billion, okay. - Stock price? - Well, when I started, $18, 260. - And how many countries were you in when you started? - 70 and you left 176. - So it's worth noting. And it's very important to recognize that basically one product company, yes, there are line extensions, that there are copycat brands, right? - Yep. - Some of them have decent product. - Yep, that's, you know, it's fair to say. - Yep. - And yet WD-40 has global recognition. - Yep. - Brand preference. - Yep. - I don't know what your marketing budgets are, but like, I don't think I've ever seen a WD-40 ad. - Probably, well, we're probably not, - Probably not, not to me. - It's not for you. - I do have a can of WD-40. - Yeah. - It's the funny thing. It's like there's basics in a household. I always have a bottle of cheap white wine in my cupboard, because if you spill red wine, white wine gets it out. - Okay. - So I always have a bottle of cheap white wine to wash out red wine. And I always have a can of WD-40 for every squeaky hinger thing that doesn't quite work. - Of course. - You have to. - You have to. - It goes with the house. - I had out of 10 households in the U.S. have a can. - Isn't that amazing? - That's amazing. - And the other 10 just have nothing. And the other two have nothing. (upbeat music) - We interrupt this podcast with an ad with authenticity. I was super excited to hear that Portia wanted to sponsor the podcast because I love their brand. I actually own a Macan myself. Then came Patrick Long, an actual race car driver. And he took me out on the track. This is two minutes of me with a massive grin on my face. At least that's how I remember. (engine revving) How about the latest GT3 with the Vysoc package? I think they're calling this one Cartinia Yellow. This is awesome. (laughs) (engine revving) - This car is built in red for a racetrack. So there's my blue cone. I turn my head all the way through the corner. Patient, patient, patient. And then go. Feeling all right? - It's the feeling of no control. - Yeah. - Yeah for sure. - And then you see things coming at you. - Absolutely. - At extremely high speed. - Right. And yeah, visually, when you don't really know this place, there's a lot that meets the eye. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Yeah, you tell me. When you've had enough, we'll bring it in. - I mean, to be honest with you, I want to drive. - Yeah, no, I get it. I get it. That's like, that's that element of control. - Like being the passenger is a lot less fun. - Oh yeah. - Well, what do you say? - Go ahead, one more. - All right, one more. He's still in it. All right, here we go. - Not too much. (laughs) - All right, that's fun. - I realized what a metaphor for life this was. You know, I was legitimately, like I had legit fear when we first started. We're going fast, I can't really see because of the camera. You know, you're talking to me while you're driving with one hand and we're, you know, coming into a turn at 95 miles an hour. Like, hold the wheel lightly, relax, and you can do difficult things more easily when you're calm. That was wonderful, over too soon. - Super fun. (upbeat music) - So it's worth noting that this is not fairy dust and pixies. This is hard business. - It is, and there's a formula. Go on, go. - So you and I, Simon, could write a really nice strategic plan, right? We'll write a nice strategic plan. We'll take it along to some smart professor and say, mark up our strategic plan. Great strategic plan, you guys, 70 out of 100. But if 30% of the people go to work every day, passionately executing against that strategic plan, 30 times 70 is a number. But if 80 or 90% of the people in the organization go to work every day and passionately executing against that strategic plan, 80 times 70 is a much bigger number. So the formula is very simple. The will of the people times the strategy equals the outcome. Most organizations spend a disproportionate amount of their time on strategy and execution instead of people, purpose, values, and learning. But if you spend a good time on people, purpose, values, and learning, you raise the engagement of the people so you have more people enthusiastically, passionately, getting up every day executing your strategic plan. Oh, duh, it is that freaking simple, Simon. - Okay, I wanna say it again, because I think it's so clever, which is there's no such thing as a perfect strategic plan and we obsess about the strategic plan. And I've definitely been guilty of tweaking the plan, tweaking the plan, tweaking the plan. It's always getting better. And we forget that you can have an imperfect plan, which is fine, a 70% good plan, which is executable. It's a 70% good plan with 30% passion is a very different outcome than 80% passion. - Absolutely. - 'Cause at least there's consistency of the 70% plan done with purpose and conscientiousness. - So good. - You know, I was talking to a CEO the other day and we were talking about the reason why investing in building a great culture is so important. And he was going, "No, no, no, no, no." I said, "Look, I can call BS on that." - Right. - I said, "I want you to go today and I want you to tell everyone in your organization to stay home for a month and do nothing. What do you think the outcome will be?" He said, "We'll be destroyed." So I said, "Why are you letting 70% of your people come to work every day and sit and quit? Because you've created this stinky culture where they don't feel like they belong. They don't feel like they matter. They can't make choices. And they have a whole bunch of fear instead of learning. And the people that are leading them are managers instead of coaches. You know, you walk into the first day of your job, Simon, and I come up, you say, "Good day, Simon. Welcome to the company. I'm your manager." What happens if you're walking and say, "Good day, Simon. I'm your coach. I know what it takes to win a game here. I'm going to stand on the sideline and watch you play. I'm never going to run on the field and take the ball from you. I'm never going to go to the podium and take the prize away from you. And I'm going to spend a lot of time in the stinky locker room with you, Simon, because I only have one goal, to help you step into the best version of your personal self. Because I know, I know you've got it in you. And I just want to see you win. - Oh my God, where do I sign up? - Yeah. - One of the things that WD-40 does is when you get a promotion. And I think throughout your tenure, but when you get a promotion to a managerial position, you offer teaching to those people so they know how to coach. Because we don't expect people to know how to coach. And it goes back to what we say before, which is we don't expect people to know how to lead. We don't teach them how to lead. And by changing the terminology, I think, because most people would be insecure to say, "I don't know how to lead. Give me the job." But I think people would be very comfortable saying, no idea how to coach, but I'd love to learn. The language is a lower bar. And it's a very clever thing. And so I know you teach people how to coach. - Yeah, well, we actually changed, we took out the word manager. - It doesn't exist on the company. - Was coach. So if you, if I had the privilege of leading you, I was your coach. And it's amazing, once you change the description and can describe what the behavior should be, so I would say you're a coach and here's what the coach is all about, what I just shared with you a few minutes ago. And your job is to coach. And we used to mandate that at least every 90 days, our coaches would sit down with those that have the privilege to lead and talk about what's getting in your way. How are you? Are you okay? What is it that I need to do to help you succeed? How do you think you're succeeding against our goals? You know, the book I wrote with Ken Blanchard called Helping People Win at Work. The tie line was, I'm not here to mark your paper, I'm here to help you get an A. So our job as coaches was to define what an A looks like, 'cause that's very important. Most people let people down because they don't clearly define if an A walked in the door today, what it would look like. After defining that, my role as a coach is to help you get the A. And that's what we used to sit down and talk about all the time. Unfortunately, a lot of people, a lot of leaders and role managers protect their own comfort zone at the expense of other people's development. That's where the bravery comes in. And it normally happens because there's not clarity around what do we expect from each other. - Can you tell me a story of somebody who came to the company, they heard the hype, they met the people, the interviews, I'm sure were quite different and quite wonderful. The company liked them, they offered them a job, they liked the company, they said yes. But they brought bad habits, they once bit and twice shy, they'd worked for some people who said all the right things and in good times they might have even done it. But as soon as a little stress was added to the system, micromanagement showed up, regression showed up, removing accountability showed up, removing agency showed up. Somebody who's cynical, how do you treat that person? - Yeah, I mean, one of the things I used to do was about 90 days after someone joined the company, I'd go to them and say, did we lie to you around what we promised? And in every circumstance they said, it's better than you ever described it. So we'd have people that would come in the company and they would go, oh yeah, sure. But then it's up to us as leaders in the organization to help them understand what the key elements are of success within the organization. Interestingly enough, if they didn't fall into the line, the tribe would vote them off the island. It wouldn't have to be us, you know? I have shared people with competitors, there's no doubt about that. In the end, I want people to be happy in the organization and if you're not happy, go somewhere else, you know? But the story that's really cool is when I talk about how in an organization you can use your values to really help redirect people. And this is a nearly true story. Names are changed to protect the innocent. We're in a meeting one morning of a group of leaders and there's someone in the room that is sucking the energy out of the room. You've been in one of those meetings, right? And our second value at the company was we value creating positive lasting memories in all of our relationships. This person was not creating a positive lasting memory. So what do you do as the leader? Well, you could ignore the behavior, which means the whole structure of the culture is gonna collapse 'cause everyone else in the room says, well, you may as well have that up on the wall, but you're never gonna act on it, right? You can stop the meeting immediately and say, Simon, that behavior's unacceptable. Everybody else in the room says, when am I gonna be publicly executed? So the meeting came to an end and you recall our new building in San Diego. I walked out of the room, I said, I'll use Simon as the gap. Simon, let's go for a walk. So I walk out of the building and I look in a trash can under a car and behind a bush and Simon says, what the hell are you doing? I said, Simon, the you I know and love was not in that room today. What's on your mind? What's getting in your way? How can I help you? And Simon starts to talk. Well, I had a bad morning. I kicked my foot on the bed, you know, I spilled coffee, someone flipped me off. So it wasn't, but we were able to have that conversation. I said, well, Simon, you live our value of creating positive lasting memories every day. And today was just one of those learning moments for you. So I wanted to make sure you were aware of that. He said, geez, I'm sorry, Gary, we had a hug. He goes back into the office, visits a few people and says, hey, you know, that wasn't me. They say, are you okay? What's getting in your way? What's on your mind? The next morning, I noticed people going to him and say, is everything okay today? That's the thing about when you have a clear set of values and you live them, where you can show people that it's not about, you know, you're not performing, but what's going inside you. And I love the story you tell about the sales guy, right? Guy's not getting his sales three months in a row. And instead of going in and, you know, refimming out of himself, you say, what's up? He said, are you okay? You know, and I think that's what's really important, showing people true concern about wanting to live who you are is so important. - Have you noticed a difference in the younger generation of employees who came into WD-40? I mean, because every generation brings both the advantages and baggage of their generation, right? Not better or worse, just different. Our movement, if we are part of the same movement, even if companies don't believe in it and even if they don't follow it, they're all forced to have purpose statements on their website, which I see as a win. At least socially, they have to keep up appearances for this thing that they don't believe in, right? Things like boundaries, things like mental health, these are kind of expected from this younger generation of the places they come to work. Can you talk about how, the both the successes and the challenges you had of a younger generation coming into your culture? - I think the older generation are the worst ones, because the younger ones coming in are aligned with what you and I believe in, right? And I haven't met-- - Well, we've built our movement railing against the boomers. - Right, yeah, yeah. But I haven't met a person, young old or even my dog, who doesn't benefit by knowing they belong and they matter. So, and they wanna learn. So I think the younger generation's coming in, they're ready to go as long as you are there to show them they belong and they matter. - They have a cynicism too, right? Remember, they grew up in a world where their parents were laid off, it's not a meritocracy. And so there's a reason why, when you and I were young, we believe that you work hard, you do the extra work, then you go to your boss and say, look at all what I've done, give me the raise. And the younger generation says, give me the raise and you see what I'm gonna do. And that could be interpreted as entitlement. I understand it as they grew up in a world where there's no loyalty from the company, so get your money while you can, because you may not last, right? I understand where it comes from. But at the end of the day, when you and I, when somebody comes to us and says, give me the money and you see what I'm gonna do. And we're going, well, why don't you do the work? And I'll be happy to take care of you. Just talk to me about the very practical ways in which a culture like WD40 adapts for a very different perspective from different people. - So here's one example. Once upon a time, you had these annual reviews, right? Where you are actually looking backwards. Well, maybe now the way to go is having steps along the way so you can recognize performance. So the younger people instead of saying, work here for 12 months and become a senior something or a new role in the position, you have steps along the way that says, okay, three months in, now I'm gonna give you this responsibility and we'll give you this. So it's encouraging them to think the way that you and I are talking about, which is you are gonna be rewarded, you're not gonna be forgotten. And I think a lot of cases that old annual review system was really working negative because I don't wanna wait 364 days for you to tell me what I should have done better or how good I've done. What I wanna do is be coached along the way. So I think that was a typical example. But it goes back to that one thing I said earlier, Simon, that I haven't met anybody who doesn't feel better if you show them they belong. I haven't met anybody who doesn't feel better if you show them you're gonna help them learn or that they actually matter in the organization. It's just fundamental. - And I've always hated the annual review because having done them and having been on the receiving end of them, you can only remember the past couple of months anyway. So if somebody's been a complete screw up for the past two months, but they've had sort of 10 months of magic, the 10 months are completely forgotten. Or conversely, 10 months of complete screw up in the last two months, you'd be like, you're amazing. - Exactly. - At that too. You're right. You know, you're challenging me. Here's my very real struggle. We have a small company. I agree with everything you've said. I don't do everything you say. And I know that I can do better even using the language. We don't call our people coaches. I'm thinking maybe we should. We don't use the term tribe. I'm thinking maybe we should. The annual reviews, we do do them, even though we're not a fan of them, and the idea of planning towards the future, we're getting better at helping people understand what an A looks like. You're challenging me to do the things that I know are important. Here's where I feel a very real strain, which is just time, which is energy, which is I feel pulled in every different direction. I can't do it all. How do I get all these things accomplished? How do I build this new plan to move forwards? How do I help all my people learn to coach something to get to an A? How do I define what the A is? I'm a little overwhelmed. I wanna do it all, and I'm a little overwhelmed. - Well, imagine how efficient and how better the organization would be if you did it all. - No, I get all that. I mean, imagine how much healthier I would be if I worked out every day and only ate celery. Yeah, sure. I know all that. I know all that. Unfortunately, focusing on the urgent at the expense of the important is part of the challenge of any leadership position. - You're right. This is not easy, man. - And so I wanna know from your very real experience, I guess I'm answering my own question, which is you don't do it all at once. You pick one, you do that, you ask for help, and you do the next one. - Yeah, this took 25 years. Well, it took about five years to gain momentum when I first started to implement a lot of this stuff. - Five years to gain momentum, which means it wasn't even fully implemented or completed. It was momentum. - Right. - Then it becomes-- - So I have to give myself some grace that this is an ongoing process and it's not a finite game. - It's not fairy dust. It takes work. Fundamental foundations, here they were. Clearly defined purpose, have we got it? Set of values, do we have them? Are they hierarchical, right? Are they clearly defined? Yes, okay. Now, what's next? Let's get rid of the word manager and put the word coach in. Great. And then let's take fear out of the organization, which was an amazing thing we did, where we said, we do not make mistakes. We have learning moments. And what's the definition of a learning moment? A positive or negative outcome of any situation that needs to be openly and freely shared to benefit all people. Now, when I implemented the learning moment, here's a true story. So I'm a couple of years in now as the CEO, drunk the cool later Ken Blanchard. I said, we're gonna reduce fear. We're gonna have learning moments now. So what I want you to do is I want you to email me and tell me a negative or a positive learning moment that you've had in the organization. And by the way, we're gonna have a contest and we're gonna have winners every month. And at the end of the contest, we're gonna send someone around the world first class to do something. The first month, I got three. So what did I do? I made heroes out of these three people who were brave enough to share a negative learning moment. They were gonna be stars in my view. The next month, they get six. What did I do? I made heroes of the next month, I got 24. And then by the end of the program, I'm getting hundreds. But it takes time to build a lack of fear in the organization that, sure, I'm gonna tell you what failed and you're not gonna come down on me or you're not gonna embarrass me. No, we're gonna use it. So I say, imagine a place where you go to work every day. You make a contribution to something bigger than yourself. You learn something new. You're protected and set free by a compelling set of values and you go home happy. Happy people build happy families. Happy families build happy communities. Happy communities build a happy world. We need a happy world. And it's as you said, Simon, who wants to go to work when dad and mum come home and sit around the dinner table and bitch about how badly they'd been treated. Now, one of these young kids are running away and say, I don't want to ever do that. But what happens if they go, I'm happy and say, you know, I had the best day today. I learned this. I was respected. You know, I was treated fairly. Now, I've had crucial conversations. I've had redirection conversations. I've had opportunities where I've had to let people move on to something. But through that whole 25 years, Simon, we never laid a person off ever. Through any upturn, downturn, whatever, because we said we were there together to do what we needed to do together. But there were some people that didn't fit the company. Okay, go be happy somewhere else. I want you to live with respect and dignity. And I want you to go and find a place to be. If this is not for you, that's okay. So, you know, I think it's, again, values plus behavior times consistency. - I like the addition. I got that from the Marine Corps. - I know I quoted it in my-- - Culture equals values plus behavior. But I like the addition. Culture equals values plus behavior time consistency. I think that's 100% true. It's not a one and done, the annual offsite, here are our values, here are what we expect, and you're done. - A lot of people think this is the soft stuff. It's not, this is hard. Because if it was easy, we'd all be doing it. - We wouldn't have 70% of people going to work every day disengaged or actively disengaged. - I heard a statistic. I'll get the numbers wrong, but you'll get it. Which was something like, people come to work and there's something like 70% of disengaged in their work. I mean, some extraordinarily high number of disengagement in American companies. If somebody gets yelled at, the disengagement number goes down to like 30%, I know. And if somebody is given one compliment about, you know, one skill or one talent, the disengagement number plummets to like 5% or whatever it is, right? But what it shows is, is that when I get yelled at, at least you know I exist. (laughing) At least you know, 'cause everybody goes, what? Getting yelled at actually is better than ignoring somebody, right? Or just letting them get on with their work. 'Cause at least you care that I'm alive and that I show up for work, you know? I'm a person, you know my name, right? But I found that astonishing. And the numbers, and again, I'm getting the exact numbers wrong, but the differentials are basically the same. Which is it plummets. And we're not talking about like coaching programs and you know, growth programs and finding one compliment of one skill or one gift, makes somebody engaged and they're like, oh, this place is wonderful. I matter, I matter. I matter. It's simple. And it's such a simple thing. Look, you know, I refuse to use the term soft skills as you know, it's human skills. And we want people to learn the hard skills and the human skills to be effective at work. Hard skills, the skills you need to do your job, human skills, the skills you need to be a better human being. And WD-40 is one of the best examples in corporate America as far as I'm concerned. And the fact that you are public, I think makes it even better, right? Because people poo poo it when you're not, you know? - Right. - And that you had the courage to understand that you were public and that you had a responsibility to the shareholders, but not the only responsibility to the shareholders and that you were playing the long game. - I had a goal. I want to build an enduring company that I would be proud to pass on to others. - Yeah. - And I think we kind of nearly got that. And, you know, I was very aware of the shareholder needs. And it's interesting when I first started-- - But third, not first. - Well, A plus B equals C. - Right. - They're C. But I remember when I first started going to Wall Street, I'd take my investor relations deck and the first five pages were always about culture. And I could see the analysts sitting across from me, their eyes are rolling, kind of saying to me, get over that, let's get to the numbers. It was very interesting in probably my last five years how engaged now they were becoming in a strong culture. In fact, we had one shareholder that took a huge stake in the company. And I asked, why? They said, it's the culture. And they never talked to me about quarter to quarter earnings. They said, okay, you've got to meet your goals over time, which we did. But, you know, one of my shareholders, I said to the ones, I'm not smart enough to run a company in 90 day intervals. And this guy said, I'm glad you're not dumb enough to try. Well, I am the Dean of dumb assery, as you know. But, you know, it's like, that wasn't what it's all about. We're going to play the long game. And there's another thing that I found really interesting as we went through COVID, you know, it was in my last two years of being CEO. So it was an interesting time, but we got into COVID and we just done our employee opinion survey feedback. And we had 93% employee engagement, 98% of people said they loved to work at the company, 97% said they respected their coach, who was their boss. So we get to January 2021, Simon. And you remember that time? The world was still topsy-turvy. There was no sign of, you know, a real vaccination. We were working hard to keep the tribe together. And I said to the folks, we need to go out and do a pulse test, just see if we're still holding up. So we went out and did a pulse test and the numbers came back. And they were all pretty similar except for one that went up. And the one that went up was the answer to the question, I'm excited about my place in the company's future. Now, this is January 2021. And I said, there's something wrong with that data. It can't be right, go check it. They went out and checked it. It was right. I said, how can anybody be excited about their place in the company future when we don't know what the world's going to be like? Go find out. We went and found out. You know what they said? I feel safe. That's what the tribe said. If I need to be-- They were watching their friends getting laid off. They said, I feel safe. If I need to be anywhere right now, I need to be here. Simon, I got goosebumps there. And I got goosebumps now when I think about it. I said to our leadership team, we did it. If during this time, people can say that, you know what? This is the place we think it is. One of the proudest moments of my life. Say again, the purpose of the company. Our purpose is to create positive lasting memories, solving problems in factories, homes, and workshops around the world. We solve problems and we create opportunities. I love that. It's beautiful. The other part, which I also love, which is the opening part, which is to make moments that matter. And I think what's really important is I don't think people could argue. It's not a product-based purpose. And I think when companies think about purpose, they default to the product. WD-40 is a lubricant that makes-- Stop squeaks. It stops squeaks. It makes things move smoothly. It doesn't create moments that matter at all. Memories that matter is just not what WD-40 is doing. It is a statement of the kind of company you want to build. And the attention that people put into the product, the marketing, the sales, comes out of it. And as you said, 80% of the people are falling a 70% good strategy. In your case, 90 something percent of them are falling a 70% good strategy. And I think that's really important. And it's something that, even in my work, I always struggle, which is people like, we believe in your work, we believe in your work. And they show me a beautiful purpose statement that's really about the product. And which is, again, not to sound like I'm cowtowing here. One of the reasons I love your company as an example is it's not glamorous, because very often when there's a glamorous tech product, an AI product, for example, and we come up with a purpose statement, it sounds glamorous because the product is glamorous. And so if you can take a non-glamorous product with what used to be a dumpy office, and all the things that shouldn't work according to modern conventional wisdom, and it not only works, it works better than most companies. Your success is better than most. But I think one of the reasons you converted so many analysts is at some point you can't help it. And it's partially because you're such a great preacher for the movement. At some point, they can't help but listen to you and relate to their own jobs, which is I would like to work in a place like WD-40. My investment bank treats me like dirt. I want that. And at some point, the hardest of asses of analysts at some point has to say, shit, I want that. Yes, and that happened a couple of times. That has to be the reason. Yeah, I mean, why not? So you're not preaching this is the right way to do it, this is the right way to do it. You're saying, this is how my people feel when they come to work, dot, dot, dot, wouldn't you like to feel that way? Exactly, exactly. Wouldn't you like to go home happy? And that's the other thing. Now, I just spent my 25-year apprenticeship in leadership. Now I'm putting it to work because I believe that business not only has a responsibility, but an opportunity to make a positive difference in the world. And I get so frustrated around this. And that's why I do what I do now is I can call BS, not because I'm a smart guy. That's why the title of my book is the title of my book. But it's because I believe that if you understand fundamentally the foundation that you need to put in and you take Simon Sinek's advice, culture equals values plus behavior and add a little consistency, and you do it, you can build a place where people go to work and go home happy, and you will build a better world. And we need it. We need it so much now. You know, I watch people get destroyed working in crappy cultures, and it's not fair. It's not fair. So you can have a great culture, and you can have a great company, and you can feel good about it, and you can send your people home happy. You and I both believe that loving work is a right and not a privilege. You know, that you go out with your friends and somebody says, I love my job, and everybody else goes, oh, you're so lucky, as if they won a lottery. You and I both believe that the people who don't like going to work should be the exception rather than the rule. And it is something entitled to every single person who chooses to work for another, for every employee on the planet. They have the right, not the privilege, to enjoy going to work. Doesn't mean every day is easy. No. It doesn't mean every day is fun. I like to equate it to the difference between liking your children and loving your children. You love your children every single day of your life. You don't like your children every day. And it's the same. You don't have to like every day at work, but you do get to love every day at work. Yeah, and I had bad days. Yeah, of course. We all do. We all do. Days I do not want to come to work, and I hate everybody around me. Well, yeah, and I don't know if I've got that far, but I-- I don't want people to think that this was a better sweet roses. We went through some tough times. We went through the great recession. We went through managing through COVID. We went through oil going from $25 a barrel to $125 a barrel. We went through upheavals in A-- we had all that, but all along the way. We kept our focus. We kept our values. The one thing that was consistent, and our purpose, was the internal. Because the external, you can't control. Very often, you can only react. But the one thing that has the consistency, as you said, you can't have consistent numbers because you're not in total control of the numbers. If the raw material skyrocket, it's going to affect your numbers. If there's a competitive threat, and they're doing a good job in their marketing, or having some promotion, or it's going to affect your numbers, we don't actually have total control of the numbers. And I think it's funny when companies say, we will hit this number on this date at this time. How? How? There's got to be some fiddly work going on there. That's actually impossible. But the one thing that we can control every single day is the internal, because that is actually under our control. I learn from you every time I talk to you. I am so grateful you came in. This was like therapy. Well, you know, you don't know how much I owe you, because I've learned so much from you over time, and I really appreciate it. That's someone. You know, it's great that you're out there doing what you do, because we need it, Simon, and we really do. You and I both believe in world peace, you know? And it sounds coiny to say. And world peace is very simple, which is if people enjoy going to work, they're happier people. And happier people come home happier, and they treat their kids better, and they treat their spouse better. And when the kids feel good because mom or dad are happy, and the spouse feels good because husband or wife is happy, they'll treat their friends and their colleagues and their neighbors better. And then those people will be like, oh, how nice that they've treated me better. I'm going to treat people better. And before you know it, the ripple spread and you have all these things. It's duh. And that's actually how human nature works. We actually are influenced by others. If somebody yells at you or flips you off-- we've all had it. Somebody cuts you off and flips you off in the car. You are pissed off for the next 20 minutes talking about them. You get out of the car, and you start talking about the person who cut you off and flipped you off. It does carry. It's amazing how many nice rooms I've got at a married hotel when I've walked in at 11 o'clock at night and said to the person behind the reception, I am so grateful you're here tonight. Thank you for waiting for me. Oh, by the way, Mr. Ridge, we have you an upgrade tonight. Who's your free upgrade? Exactly. But sincerely, I'm happy they're there. No, no. We've dragged our butt across some nation and been on planes and whatever. And you see people treating people badly. And you wonder why they are getting treated badly. And if a company wants to put pressure on employees to hit certain numbers, I mean, sure, you can create some sort of incentive structure that's based solely on numbers. And guess what people focus on? The short-term personal gain that you've incentivized. And they'll do whatever they need to do to get it. And that usually means stepping on people, kicking people, get out of the way. Sometimes unethical and most extremely legal, yeah. And we see it all the time. And you show me any company that's acted very unethically and has exhibited ethical fading. Almost every single time, I will show you a company with a broken culture and a misaligned incentive structure almost every time. The other thing that's really interesting in the work that I'm doing now, when I look at compensation costs, compensation costs are always higher in organizations with crappy cultures. Because you can pay anybody to stay anywhere and be treated badly. That's true. Everybody's got a price. Everybody's got a price. But if you want to have a compensation structure that allows you to keep people in your organization in good and bad times, culture plays hugely into it, hugely. Even the most cynical, I should say, maybe I should invest in this for totally selfish reasons that it'll help me whether they're difficult or strong. Unless you believe-- But then I think, then you learn, because you start to see it and enjoy it. I've seen that happen, too, which is people like, oh, I guess I'll do this. And they become converted, just like you converted those analysts. Right. This is David Marquet's work, which is-- Oh, yeah. He turned the boat around. He turned the ship around, which is he talks about, we get it wrong in how we change behavior. We think we have to explain to people why it matters and hope that their behavior changes. So first, they have to get it. Then they'll change their behavior. And what he learned is you force the change in behavior, and then people get it. And then people go, oh, which is kind of what you did at WD-40, which is like, let's all be coaches. Congratulations. I know you don't care. But I'm going to teach you how to be a coach. And I'm going to force you to be a coach. And I'm going to incentivize you to be a coach. And now I like being a coach. And now I like being a coach. I'm not going to convince you the importance of being a coach. And then hopefully you'll sign up for the learning. Well, it then goes back to 97% of the people respect their coach. Now, that was the word in the survey. If you were to change that question of work, would be, do you respect your manager? And I would suggest you would get 10% of people who would say they do. But because they're acting as a coach, most people leave jobs because they hate their boss. Well, because the boss is being a boss. He's being a soul-sucking leader, unfortunately. But Bob Chapman talks about this. Our mutual friend, Bob Chapman, from Barry Waymiller, he talks about this, which is nobody comes to work to be managed. Nobody wants to be managed, but we all want to be led. Yeah. Yeah. And we would all want to be coached, too. I love what he says. Anybody who comes to work every day is someone's precious husband, wife, sister, or brother. And it's so true. And I think it's worth pointing out all of these leaders that I get to write about and some of them I get to meet. They weren't always this way. I wasn't. Bob wasn't. He ran it by the books. He's a trained accountant. People were lying items on a spreadsheet. Do your job. You get to stay on the spreadsheet. Don't do your job. You get to leave the spreadsheet. And he had an epiphany. He had a conversion. I was the same. Be brief, be bright, be gone. And that wasn't going to work. When I did my disc profile, I hated what I was told I was. So I had to move from a turbo D to an I, which was, relationships really matter. And it took me time. It took me time to really get comfortable with it. And I think that goes right back to where we started, which is if you want to be the leader you wish you had, you actually start with you. It all starts with you. It all starts with you. Gary, I love talking to you. Thank you so much for coming in, such a treat. These are always frustrating conversations with me because I'd like to go for another four hours. But this is the best. Thank you. Thank you, Simon. It's been a great pleasure. A bit of optimism is a production of The Optimism Company, lovingly produced by our team, Lindsay Garbenius, Phoebe Bradford, and Devin Johnson. Subscribe wherever you enjoy listening to podcasts. And if you want even more cool stuff, visit simonsynic.com. Thanks for listening. Take care of yourself. Take care of each other.