The Creators of ‘Hacks’ on Comedy, Creative Partnership and Surviving Hollywood

Yeah, I like I love a polycule, you know, they don't have to just be Brooklyn media polycules. They're going to be Hollywood media polycules. Yeah, they could be Hollywood writing polycules. Oh, yeah, it's very Los Angeles. Hi, everyone from New York Magazine in the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is on with Cara Swisher and I'm Cara Swisher. My guest today are Jen Statsky, Luccia Añello, and Paul W. Downe, the creators and showrunners of the series Hacks on HBO Max. Over the course of his run, the critically acclaimed show about Hollywood and the business of comedy is one 12 Emmys, including the prize for outstanding comedy series in 2024. Hacks follows Deborah Vance, a legendary Las Vegas stand-up played by Jean Smart and Ava Daniels, a young TV writer played by Hannah Eindbinder. From the moment they first meet, their relationship is complicated, filled with lies, betrayal, black male and reconciliation. But it grows into a deep and hilarious bond in the pair for the creative partnership that turns around both of their careers. Now after five seasons, Hacks is coming to an end, the series finale airs on May 28th. I have long wanted to talk to the people who make Hacks. I think it's one of the best shows on television. I think it's very, very funny, but it's also very deep in terms of how people conduct their relationships at work. It's about people who love their work, much as I do, and what they do to make it fantastic and what they sacrifice for that. It's really that hard about a relationship between two people, a creative relationship, but it's so much more than that. And nobody who works on the show is a Hack, but this show is fantastic. We have two expert questions today from actor George Hahn and comedian Nikki Glazer. This was a great conversation with incredibly creative people, something I want to really lean into over the next couple of episodes. I really am trying to embrace human creativity, not AI-aided human creativity, but just people who make great things. So stick around. A quick note before we get to the interview, I'm doing a special live episode with guest Mark Marin at the opening of the Tribeca Film Festival podcast stage. It's June 8th at 8pm. Tickets are available now at TribecaFilm.com/audio. What's up y'all? I'm Skyler Diggins, 7-time WNBA All-Star, Olympic Gold Medalist, and Mom. And I'm Cassidy Hubbard, host and reporter for nearly 20 years, covering the biggest names and stories in sports and Mom. And this is Am Mom, a community for athletes, game changers, and moms of all kinds. Dropping May 14th. Happy and with us. Cheating on your partner is a huge breach of trust. All of the pain and the guilt and the reality of what was happening hit me just like a tidal wave all at once. Why do people cheat? And why does it make us so mad even when we're not the ones it's happening to? That's this week on Explain It To Me. Two episodes Sundays, wherever you get your podcasts. Jen, Lucia and Paul, thanks for coming on on. Thanks for having us. I am a longtime fan of hacks from the beginning. And hacks is a comedy about Hollywood and show business. It's clearly written from a place of experience and love. You pitched it to HBO back in 2019. Can you talk about each of you how your perspective Hollywood is show business has changed over the last seven years and how it's reflected in the series? Let's start with Jen and then Lucia and then Paul. You know, it's really wild making this show in this seven year period that we have because we are coming. We are book ending. We pitched the show to when it had no name, the streaming service was just the Warner media streaming service. It didn't exist yet. There were very few shows. And now as we come to the end of our run on HBO Max, what it then became, we, as we all know, are in a situation where the studio is likely going to be bought by Paramount. And so what is really wild is we have seen this crazy like in our time, you know, working in Hollywood, this like peak TV, this explosion and then this contraction and this massive push to try to compete in the streaming wars and then the pull back into no will just consolidate companies and we can't compete that way. So what's wild is all along. We've just been chugging along trying to tell this story and make this show as good as we possibly could. But it is not lost on us. And as you see reflected in the show, we do comment on the landscape of television and film and entertainment as we see it changing. So pretty, it's, yeah, it has been a, it has not been a calm time in the entertainment industry during the making of hacks for creators. Yeah. And for creators. Lucia, it feels a little bit like, you know, when you see a garage door closing and you want to just roll underneath, we feel like we rolled underneath of the garage door closing of this industry, being able to make a show. I never, I never want to do that. But go ahead. Keep going. Get in before it closes, what you're saying. Yeah, exactly. And so, you know, we feel a little bit that way in terms of being able to make this show, like a comedy that runs five seasons that they've been very generous with the budget. It does feel a little bit like, you know, when we look behind us at the pipeline, it looks very different than the comedy world we came up in. I mean, we came up kind of in this lower budget, Comedy Central world, where we really got to explore our voices and get paid to do so. And now when I look at the younger comedians, I'm just not sure how they could even have the hours or the reps, but like that I did as a writer director in the early odds. And that's really the thing that is the most frightening to me is just the pipeline and being able to get younger writers and directors that experience. I just don't know where that comes from now. Paul? I mean, yeah, not only are Comedy Central originals gone, you know, like Lichia said, the place where we came from. But as late night shows get canceled, that's another place that, you know, comedy writers cut their teeth and figure out their voice. And as those things go away, it just feels harder and harder to make comedy. You know, we've heard anecdotally some of our writers who are brilliant have been told by their agency. I wish maybe you should write a drama spec might be easier to get staffed. So I think not only is there a constricting overall of the industry, but particularly it feels like a crisis in comedy, which are things, you know, that don't always travel internationally or don't always have the same legs that some hour long dramas have. So it does feel like we've really seen a huge amount of change in the time that we've been making this show. So one of the things you're saying they don't carry internationally in that sort of Netflix has transformed it all, right? The idea of how you make and create shows essentially. Yeah, very much. I mean, it feels like you have to have something that, you know, is streamed everywhere for a lot of minutes so they can collect their data or whatever it is they do. So yeah, I do think that that's been the technology entering this business has been a major disruptor. And you know, one of the things you were very pressing about is the pressures that companies are under in this environment, correct? The idea, which has changed really quite drastically. As you said, there was this flowering of TV, like let's make everything because they needed content, content, content into the system to something that's changed rather dramatically, which is where these companies now are. They're buffeted by political issues and everything else, which you had on very early last year, which of course happened. The thing you wrote happened essentially. And we're going to rate about world peace next. I think that's going to work. Yeah, tuner next show. Universal healthcare. Right. Yeah, yeah, that's going to be a real winner. I'm not sure that's happening. But you got to a fifth season, which is a lot of seasons. A lot of things are much shorter. They're limited series. I know everyone I talk to in Hollywood says, you know, limited series is what they want. And they're not going to be limited. I think that's going to be a lot of things. are her jokes. because it might impact the studio's movie that's opening. She says, well, that's one thing that I won't do. I'm not gonna censor my jokes and I'm not gonna fire my voice just to make shareholders happy. So I do think there is a line for her. I mean, we start the show, the pilot episode is called There Is No Line because that's what she says to Ava. There's really no line if you can make a joke funny. But in this, you know, in the end of season four, she says, well, there is a line. And for me, this is it. And it was sort of wishful thinking, you know, it's a thing that you want to have happen in Hollywood that people don't roll over for corporate greed. But, you know, it hopefully is an optimistic view. - Kimmel is sort of doing that. - Yeah, Kimmel, I think is a really interesting figure right now because I think that everyone can kind of see that this guy isn't just, his rhetoric isn't any, I'm now getting into political stuff, but like his rhetoric is certainly not as dangerous or aggressive or whatever as just the administration itself. So it is interesting that he's kind of this bell weather free speech at this moment as well as Colbert, of course. And so when we did have this kind of story line and Deborah Vance, you know, deciding to say, this is my line, it was also of course a very personal choice because it was about Ava, this girl, who she's had a long relationship with over the course of four seasons. So first we're always trying to, you know, like strike a balance between culture and commentary and relationships and character growth and all those things. So that really is just something that we're aiming for at all times. It is a comedy first and foremost. And so we're not trying to like shove our personal, you know, opinions down people's throat, but we do try to weave it into the character's point of view and hopefully in a way that feels satisfying to the audience. - In season four finale, TMZ pronounces Deborah dead also and publishes a pre-written obituary that accuses her of being retired and blames her for killing a whole franchise of late night TV, which was already dying, which is really, that's what the sacrifice is really interesting 'cause late night TV is already problematic. I was talking to some Trump people and I'm like, why are you doing this? It's already dying. Like what? - Right. - You know, you're keeping it alive, which is really interesting. - Right, right, right. - You're having the opposite effect of what you want. - The stri-tend effect. - Yeah. Well that's 'cause Donald Trump believes permanently in 1981, I think. - But she decides to focus on establishing her legacy saying, quote, I refuse to be remembered on other people's terms. John, why don't you answer, what does leaving legacy mean for a comedian some comedy is timeless, but it's not like music, a lot of comedy doesn't age well. - Yeah, I mean this whole final season is very much so about Deborah confronting her legacy and wanting to, as you said, write it on her own terms. And I think for a comedian, you're right, it's a little more difficult than music or because it's topical, and commenting on the culture. Like the best comedy speaks truth to power and talks to what's happening in our culture. And so certainly I think there's some level of challenge there for Deborah, but also I think the work she and Eva have done together in the show has attempted to be timeless and just speaking to her experience and her lived experience as a woman in the industry. And I don't think that that will really age out for better or worse. I don't think things will progress too much. And so therefore Deborah talking about the challenges she's faced and what she's gone up against, I think will remain relevant for a long time, sadly. But yeah, it's, she's really, you know, as you see in that first episode, when she finds that her special in the work that she and Eva have done has just been a race. Like there's something so devastating, especially for a character who has been so devoted to her career and so devoted to her work. It is really deeply what she believes she's leaving behind in this world. And so just having that taken away is such a blow to her and makes her realize like I need to activate and do something to solidify my legacy in whatever different ways that I can. Right, or make something else. I mean, when she goes back to her old show, you know, that's a really, I find very poignant. And remember some of it, not the other, but it's hard for her to do that presumably. Yeah, I mean, that show, while was a great career boon for her in many ways, it exposed to the public, it got her the chance to come close to being the first late night host as a woman way back in the 70s. It's also the, as you see in episode four of this season, a lot of her central trauma came out of a result of that show and her relationship with her then husband, who she made it with. So it's a complicated thing. And I think it's in exploring that we see why Deborah has been such a guarded person and why, as Paul said, amassing wealth and amassing things has been to protect herself because she is someone who so early in life, so early in her career dealt with this betrayal that then turned into this public smearing that it's a person who really hardened over many years as many people in the industry do. And only when she meets this person 50 years later in the form of a young 25 year old, she starts to crack open, but she amassed many, many years of hardening herself and protecting herself based on what happened. So speaking of that, Luchia, Deborah's relationship with Ava played by Hannah Eindbinder is at the heart of the show. To call it turbulent is an understatement. It's really the love story here. It goes off the rails to season when they visit another comedian, her wife, and Monocito. I won't let that go, but finally thank you for doing that. Luchia, talk about so many breakups, trails, and reunions over the courses series. What brings them back together? They had so many, I don't know, I use the word hijinks because that diminishes it, but they had so many. It is like watching a lesbian couple, like a full regalia of that kind of thing. So can you talk a little bit about their relationship? Yeah, it's been very one step forward, two steps back. There's been litigation. There's been a lot of different power dynamics, but in the end, the thing that keeps them coming back to each other is their spark in terms of writing comedy. And that's something that's very autobiographical for the three of us. We've been all writing in this business for 15 years now. And there are just people where you meet them and you're joking around or you're pitching ideas, and there's just something special about it. You're funnier around them. You want to be funnier, you want to make them laugh. And that really is what the three of us have. And now that we, and we also share with a lot of our collaborators in making the show, writers and actors, and honestly crew too, but there really is something so special about that. It is like such a turn on in so many ways, that it just is, and I think that's maybe why it gets some lines are blurred in terms of whether it's a sexual relationship or not. There just is something really alluring about that. And I mean, hey, I married one of them. One of these two, you guess right. Yeah, but yeah. And once polygamy is legal, we're holding that. Oh, I'm so happy for all of you. I love pushing legislation forward. Jen, we said we wouldn't get political. We said we wouldn't get political. I love a trouble. Well, that's my one cause. She did marry us also. She was our efficient. So it's really-- That's true. Talk about what you can do with lines. I got as involved in the marriage as I put. Yeah, I love a polycule. They don't have to just be Brooklyn media polycules. There could be Hollywood media polycules. You could be Hollywood writing polycules. Oh, yeah. It's very Los Angeles. But there's something really seductive about it and exciting. And I think that no matter what, they know that they make each other better as-- and they're comedy, but they also make each other better as people. And whether they like it or not, they've never found anybody else like that. What would you describe the relationship? Because it's not mother daughter. It's not sister. It's not romantic, really. It is, but it isn't. Yeah, but it's not, right? It's an interesting-- And it's actually quite awkward in that regard. But how would each of you describe their relationship? Why don't you start Luchia and then Jen and Paul? If you had a word, what would you say? Well, we have referred to it as a dark mentorship, where there is that kind of mentorship, but there is a tinge of toxicity to it. But I do think that that is really more apt for the beginning parts of their relationship. I think as a series progressed, they get to a place where it's not completely toxicless. But it becomes more something with more heart. So Jen? Yeah, I think that the reason it's so hard to define is because the intimacy is so inherent to the act of creating with someone. And I think we have more depictions on screen of mother daughter, of lovers, sister-- all these things. So I think sometimes people watch the show. And it makes sense that they would use those kind of touch stones to say, oh, is it like that or is it like that? But I think what we, as Luchia was saying before, it's very autobiographical. Obviously not our relationship. It does not have quite the ebbs and flows of theirs, thankfully. But it's autobiographical to the fact of how intimate creating with a person is. Yeah, intimate is the right word. I've never been in a band, but I imagine the dynamic that three of us have, I imagine, it's a very similar dynamic to bandmates to people who make music together. Because you're really so in each other's lives, in each other's brains and souls and skin. And so it makes sense. that the way people watch this show, they feel this intimacy between Deborah and Eva, and it feels, you try to put it onto other things you've seen that kind of intimacy in. So to me, the relationship is just, it is what creative intimacy is. That's a great way to put it, Paul. - Yeah, I mean, I would say they're partners. You know, I think they make work together, and so they are partners, but unlike partners at a law firm, you know, or someone who's like, in a different line of work, I think, like Jen's saying, because it is generative, and also because I feel like in comedy, or you know, in our show business, it feels like it has to be a calling more than just a profession, because it is a really difficult industry. - Right, work is everything to them. - It's everything, it is part of their very identity. And so, and that may be true of lawyers who absolutely love the law, but I think they're closer to soulmates than they are just work partners because of the fact that they are creating together. It is like, you know, when they put out a special into the world, even though Abe is not in front of the camera and or behind the mic, it's a baby of hers. So it's, you know, I do think that they are very much partners. - Yeah, it's really interesting. I actually, there's now shades of it in devil wars, prodded to your story and see their relationship, very much evolve in that regard, which is interesting. It's a different kind of relationship, but Paul, there's also a loyal team of support staff behind Deborah Vance industries, including her manager, Jimmy, played by you, her business manager, turn friend Marcus, and a state manager, Yosufina, everybody actually. What do you want to explore about the dynamics? 'Cause the staff is very important here. They're very critical people in this. - Very much. I mean, I think when we first pitched the show, we, when we were talking about the character study of this kind of a person, the people that are in her orbit, oftentimes who are on their payroll, but are also very intimately involved in their lives, and in some ways become their family, we knew that that was gonna be a big part of the show, exploring the ecosystem around a person like Deborah Vance. You know, I think these are the people that, when you're really closed off to the world, no more about you, they're the people that go to your birthday, if you have a party, I don't know the Deborah does, but, and so I think it was just a very important facet of understanding somebody like this and the people that they do keep close. And then of course, you know, her manager, Jimmy, is the glue that holds them all together. You know, I mean, he's the one that really keeps the show going. - Yeah, he's critical. - Critical. - Yeah, actually, it should be called Jimmy. The whole show should be. - I appreciate that. Here's Jimmy. Yeah, I think. I mean, we did, it was funny because we did think, how do we get these two very different people from different generations together? And so it did make sense that this manager who would have inherited someone like Deborah from his father who was a manager. And this young writer that he discovered and represents, he would be sort of the person to put them together. And so it was a really important part of the inciting incident for the show, for the premise of the show. But as Deborah and Neva have helped each other redeem their careers, obviously his role becomes more and more important. - Right, and the entire staff too. - Oh, yes, yes, that's right. - All of them have some aspect to it, 'cause a lot of, sometimes it's all played by, you know, in Hollywood people that just say yes or PR people or whatever. But in this case, it's almost a family like an unusual family, I suppose. - It is a bizarro family. And as Deborah says, Deva, she doesn't need a yes man. She needs a no woman to ignore. So I do think there's a lot of no people to ignore that surround her. - We also, speaking about Jimmy and Kayla and Randy now played by Robbie Hoffman. We wanted to also, as you said, it's a portrayal of the entertainment industry. And we wanted to portray this side of the entertainment industry that we felt had been a little bit under explored, which is people who represent artists and manage them and agent them. And actually the version of that, you know, there's the entourage version. There's that version. But we hadn't really seen, I think, a version of the people that are instrumental to helping artists make their work and getting it out there. And so I think one thing that we're happy about is portraying representatives in the entertainment industry who actually are doing it for the right reasons and not necessarily trying to just profit off of other people's hard work. 'Cause there are certainly lots of those as well. - Yeah, absolutely. The entourage version, the ad version. And I can't use put that slip down in there. - It's just a different, I think. - Oh, yeah. - I think Ari Gold had a whole, Ari Gold and Jimmy Lissag Jr are just different guys. Let's put it that way. - Yes, very much so. - Very different way of doing business. - Yes, although I'm sad to report that Ari Emmanuel is exactly like that. Anyway, I have on my phone, I said something on my podcast. I know him really well. And I declined to sign with him. And at one point I said something about him. And he just sent me a message on my voice mail. Fuck you, Cara's wish or a fuck you. And by the way, fuck you. And I was like, I just kept it and I replay it. - Oh my God. - Oh my God. - Why does that sound? - 'Cause that's iconic. You do need that. - I do need to keep it for all eternity. He has very nice sibling though, who are much better than he is. Anyway, every episode we get a question. Well, there's one that's okay. There's one that's fantastic. Every episode we get a question, Amaka, say which one? From an outside expert today, we have two. Here's the first. - Hi guys, George Han here, friend of Cara's, writer, podcaster, actor, among other things. And 12 years ago, for a few months before she died, I had the privilege of doing social media for Joan Rivers, writing and creating content for her Instagram and Facebook accounts. Clearly the character of Deborah Vance drew a lot of inspiration from Joan down to the way she looked. Also like Joan, Deborah is a highly successful woman in a real boys club. A real baller, if you will, and a virtual industry unto herself. Now Joan famously broke ground as a late night host, only to have the NBC door slammed on her by Johnny Carson after she got her own show on Fox, even though it was short lived. Decades later, Joan remains one of the only female hosts of her own late night network talk show. I think it was a wound that never fully healed. Deborah Vance carries a similar wound. My question, was that rupture, the cost of female ambition in a male dominated industry? Was that always going to be at the core of the show? And how striking is it to you that 40 years later, Joan remains one of the only women to do it? Thanks, big fan. - There have been a few other women hosts, but that was sort of the iconic one. Paul, you go first then, Lucian, Jen. - Yeah, you know, you're right. There have been other women that host late night, but none like Deborah Vance this season, or even like Joan, even Joan's, I believe, wasn't at that 1130, even though it was, you know, on a major network. So I think that is the one thing that distinguishes what Joan did and what Deborah does, which is they're on a legacy network at that prime time slot, which has always been male dominated. And I do wish, you know, we were talking earlier about how we were a little bit predictive in terms of what has happened with Colbert and Kimmel. I wish we had predicted a woman taking the chair at one of these major networks, but yes, that was always part of the pitch of the show. When we pitched the show, we talked about this being a woman, and we talked a little bit about this today, about how comedy doesn't always age well. And so we talked about watching comedians who are oftentimes very progressive and forward-thinking, someone like Deborah who had this sort of progressive sitcom about the woman being the breadwinner and flipping the gender roles. And then she was offered this late night show, but because of sort of a public scandal in her very tumultuous divorce, all of that was taken away. And Shiatro feat, she leaned into the being a joke. She actually made her mint because she realized she hit a vein when she started making herself out to be the crazy person, the loony lady. So we always talked about how you can become different than you originated and how we wanted Ava to be the person that gets her back into that sort of more authentic, more progressive kind of comedy, which would be the thing that lets her get a late night show again. And we always also said that it was going to be something that was a chapter in the story, and we weren't going to watch the making of a late night show because we weren't interested in the behind the scenes for more than one season. But yeah, that was very much-- No, the lunches were all you needed. Yeah, once you see the lunches, you get it. But yeah, I was very much a part of the initial pitch for the show. Yeah, it does feel like even though Paul saying Debra's core trauma was a little bit more connected to her husband leaving her for her sister around the time of the late night. But I think what George was saying is true that there is the central trauma for both of them really is they both were as good as their male contemporaries, but never got to have the same career. That is essentially what the problem is for both of them. And so what they both had to do is carve out these new niches of a career slightly outside of the traditional comedian path that all their male counterparts got to have. And so that is something that I think created the characters they became. And it's interesting now. I think I don't think that-- female comedians have quite the same barriers, but I do still feel like if there was gonna be another late night show, I don't know if a woman would still get that chair. And so, it's interesting that now there's so many, the gatekeepers, now with the internet, comedy gatekeepers are a whole other thing. So now there are so many women and men, and but especially and also a lot of queer comedians creating these new avenues of performing whether it's podcasts or front facing videos. But now a lot of people are having to create careers outside of like the traditional paths, which would have been really interesting if Joan or Debra would be a young comedian today, if that is something they would have had to pursue. Jen. - Yeah, I mean, exactly what Luchy was saying, it's kind of, you know, into his question about existing in the boys club, like that is very much so what Debra faced in the sense that in the real world too, what the boys club means is that the pipeline is only open to the type of people that the pipeline lets in. And for so, so long in comedy and in entertainment, it was essentially straight white cis men. And that was, you know, and everyone else, maybe they would get let in, but especially as you see with Debra, one Ron move in the press jumps on it and she's kind of destroyed. And that pipeline closes to her and then she has to figure out other ways to make her career. And so we were very interested as we, you know, we talked a lot this show and the beginning about just women whose stories we got Ron, women like a Britney Spears or a Marsha Clark during the OG trial, women who the public, the media jumped on and made a joke and told a certain story. And only years later have we looked back and gone, wait a second, that was a completely unfair portrayal and it's just not the way we would have jumped on a man who did the same thing. - Monica Lewinsky. - It's another one. - Yeah, Monica Lewinsky, another person we talked about a lot. We'll be back in a minute. - Support for the show comes from Delete Me. 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Now at a special discount for our listeners, get 20% off your Delete Me plan when you go to joindeleteme.com/cara. Use the promo code "cara" at checkout. The only way to get 20% off is to go to joindeleteme.com/cara and enter code "cara" K-A-R-A at checkout. That's joindeleteme.com/cara code "cara." In the span of a decade, Ben Shapiro built the daily wire into a conservative media empire. He produced hit podcasts that bit at liberal excesses and documentaries and lectures about founders, the genders, the gospels. He peddled polos, hats, candles, provided a home for de-platformed conservative stars like Matt Walsh and minted stars like Candace Owens. Let's put a pin in that. The daily wire even has kids programming, a judgmental puppet named Zoodles. Zoodles. Who shares Shapiro's load-bearing eyebrows? This year, though, the empire showed signs of collapse. The daily wires, YouTube videos are down from millions of views to the low five figures. Web traffic is plummeting and recently, Shapiro laid off 13% of his employees. As by the Washington Post, what had happened? Shapiro accused other conservatives of click-horing by embracing radical Islam, theorizing about the evils of Winston Churchill and mocking the widow of Charlie Kirk. The kid still got it. On today's sprained, the fall of Ben Shapiro. Today, explain drops every weekday afternoon. So let's talk about how the three of you collaborate. You all did sketch and improv and later moved to LA and work together on Broad City. You touched on this earlier, but Jen, talk about the experience of being in the writer's room on Broad City. As you noted, similar opportunities don't exist as much for young comedy writers. They are else. They've been severely limited, comparatively. Yeah. Comedy Central at that time was such a wonderful place because there was a chance to take a risk on people who hadn't made TV before, who hadn't necessarily gone through the pipeline. And so I came, Paul Naccia worked on Broad City's and season one, I came on in season two. And I remember just being so excited that these two people, Abby Jacobson and A Lot of Glazer, were given a platform and given a show because they were so funny, so smart, so unique. Their relationship was so lightning in a bottle. And what's nice is that just doesn't exist in a straight pipeline of all the people that usually get a chance. And so it was just extremely exciting to work on that show because it felt like just such a runaway chance that was being given to them. And it obviously culturally hit upon something that people really, really responded to. So for me, and Paul Naccia were there much more than I was, but for me, I look back at that as just such an important moment in comedy because it was this time when we were giving new voices at chance and giving people who didn't benefit from the typical pipeline of chance. - That's you? - Yeah, I think that also one thing that was really fun about it is that there were no real grownups. A lot of comedy rooms now, even if you do get one of those jobs, which is amazing, it's kind of like, and here's a higher level person. And here's this person, here's a showrunner. You know, Abby and Alana were the showrunners. Paul and I were there, like John said, from the beginning through all the way to season five. And it was an incredibly small room. So what was really cool about it was that we got to like, figure it out together. And I think that is kind of reflected in the show that you see, which is like, it feels different because it was different. And so we all really got to figure it out together and make something that we felt was fresh and unique and specific to that time. The late teens in New York City. And it was a really magical time to be creating something. And like John's saying, from that era, you had like, key in peel and Schumer and the Detroiters and like all these people who've gone on to make great, amazing work. And now you're looking at, you know, where's the next Jordan peel coming from? I don't know. - Right, as you think about it. Now Paul, you have you hacks as a show that's quote, show is adjacent, even Deborah living in exile in Las Vegas, even when they get to Los Angeles for late night, they're still outcasts in a lot of ways. Talk about that outcast, because that's what they choose, just talking about outcast perspective, bring to the show about Hollywood and the industry. You don't get from shows like the studio, which is delightful, but has a very insider/studio exact point of view. - Yeah, I mean, hopefully that's one of the things that makes it feel accessible, whether you're in the industry or not, is that everybody knows what it's like to be on the outside, looking in, and everybody knows what it feels like to be, to suffer an indignity and want to say, like Jen said before, "No, you got me wrong. You don't really see me." And so it was important to us to tell that story because it's what would happen to a character like Deborah Vance. I mean, it was central to the DNA of the show. But as we talked about, it's also central to all the characters, all the characters are people that don't quite fit in. I mean, Jimmy and Kayla have to leave their agency because it's like very broy and they're just not really fit there. So they go out on their own for better or worse and try and create their own management firm. And I think that's true of really anybody in the show. They have to really work outside the system. DJ certainly, even Marcus, who started as a fan and made merch for Deborah and then became sort of like her CEO of her product empire. Even he has to figure out ways to carve his own path. So that was something that we really wanted to make central to the show. Right, that they don't belong anywhere. So another question about your collaboration. Here's a second expert question. This one's from comedian Nikki Glazer. And such a huge fan of hacks. I think it's not only one of the best and funniest TV shows on TV right now, but really of all time. It is such a joy to watch every week the joke writing is impeccable. I was wondering about the joke writing. I'm wondering how much of that happens on set, how much do you guys play around, how much improv is there. And then I'm also wondering of whose story arc or what character has changed the most in terms of what you wrote in the initial pilot. What are we seeing now that you would have never predicted when you first started writing this show? So that's it. Thank you so much. I can't wait for what's next on the show. The season has been incredible. And please do a Jimmy Spinoff. Thanks, Nikki. I'm so happy. - Thanks, Nicky. - Remember she used to have a show, Nikki and Sarah, was Sarah, she had her front-end team. - Yes. - Yeah, yeah. Paul, why don't you start since she seems to want a Jimmy show? - Oh, well that's sweet. And she is so funny, I'm such a fan of hers too. And have been for a long time. She's really been grinding for a long time and she's talk about expert joke writer, my god, she's so good. Via, we, so we write a lot of the jokes on set, but we write, obviously, as many jokes as we can, we're all about sort of jokes per minute on the show, we really wanted to be funny. First, luckily our cheat code is that it's a show about a standard comedian, so they talk and set up punchline form often. So not only do we write a lot of jokes into the scripts, but then our writer's room will give us a ton of alts for every single joke. We'll go through and highlight things and say, do we have anything that can beat this? And so on the day, we have sort of a wealth of alts to go through. And then I think one of the things that is the most fun for us for the three of us is we try and keep it very alive. We try on the day to also find things, to pitch things to the actors, to let them add lib and improvise if they care to. I will say that myself and Meg probably improvise the most. We probably do riff more than anybody else. But yeah, it's even in the editing of the show, once we get into the edit, there's oftentimes ADR lines that will add to fit another joke in. So the writing process in terms of the joke writing never stops, really. From beginning to end. - Yeah, exactly the Paul said, the joke writing is pretty relentless. And we're all insane about trying to make sure we beat every joke until we feel good about it. And yeah, in terms of what characters and the storyline that you couldn't have predicted where it went, I mean, there's so much of this show that we really did plot out since the beginning, that we kind of, we knew that Debra and Eva would be such a, you know, the backbone of the show that this show lived and died by the relationship between them. But I'll just speak for myself. Like I don't think in the, you know, we obviously the character of Jimmy was written for Paul, but the unique comedic chemistry between Paul and Meg Stalter, I don't think we could have predicted that. Like it's a thing where had we cast someone as Kayla and it been like, yeah, she's fine. I think that would have just kind of been like, you know, a sci-care, whatever, but Paul and Meg have such like magic on screen together and are such gifted comedians and then just had this like, kismet thing when they came together. So for us, that was something then that it was like, oh, we need to like also explore that relationship, which is I'm so proud of the way the Jimmy-Kaila relationship as a to some has evolved on a parallel track to Ava and Deborah throughout the season. But that was really a joy in casting and finding this kind of incredible comedic duo that if you don't have that chemistry between two people, you can't really write to it. Now, let me just note you also have said that when you pitched the show, you had a clear vision of what it was going to be down to the ideal number of seasons, the final scene. Now you've all since confirmed there's a new project in early development in HBO and it seems like it could be a hacks reboot. You put out a statement said, right now we feel good about going out without overstaying our welcome, but you won't have to twist my arm. What has changed? How do you feel about that? I still feel pretty much the same. I think right now we're going through kind of an intense grief period because the show is ending and like we were saying before, we really genuinely like love making the show with all these people and as try as we might unless it was literally hacks, we can't ever get the exact same people back in the same way. So we're really grieving. We're really like it's sad that we won't be able to see all these people again. And so part of me is like, yeah, well, what if the show does suck but we get to keep making it, at least we get to be together? That's part of me feels that way. But we also I think do feel that the quality of the show is so important to us and we always want people to feel like every season is necessary and important. So the truth is is I don't believe that there should be any more hacks even though there's nothing I would want more. I got it. Anyone else, Paul? You know, I think Lichy is right there. It's so hard to say goodbye to these characters because we could work with any of the actors from the cast in a heartbeat and I hope we do. But like Lichy has said, the alchemy of all of them together will never be the same. And that was the thing that is one of the greatest joys of making the show. And actually, I know we talked a lot about Jimmy and Kayla being something that expanded as the show went on. And even though we pitched the final episode of this show, we never would have predicted that we would have had Lauren Weedman as Mayor Joe Pesimenti back in every single season or Paulie Draper as Diana Debra Psychic back in every single season. There were so many people that we were, it was the greatest privilege to let these comedians and actors shine and come back and do more. That was like the best part of making the show. And so, you know, I think the mayor, the mayor, a psychic. I'm trying to think there's plenty more that we just can - Johnny Cibili as Wilson. - Johnny Cibili as Wilson. - That's really only supposed to be one season and we kept having him back. (upbeat music) I want to finish up talking about the business of Hollywood because right now, as you said, it's a really disrupted place. It's been disrupted for a while, but it continues to be. So there's a moment in season three when Jimmy tells Ava now people are only looking for shows that already exist with one tiny tweak or a huge global hits. And Jen, you said you feel lucky to be making comedy today. And Ava has a similar problem, you know, trying to get a show going even though they find her very successful. They keep, you know, that somewhat idiotic studio executive sort of changes pitch, oh, this is great, but no. But yes, now you pitch tax back in 2019 as I noted, is there anything you do differently if you pitched it today? Any of you? I think the truth is no, you know, and I think that that speaks to the only way that a creative person can withstand all the insanity in this business, which is that I, unless you guys disagree, like I think we would pitch the same show because the truth is if you try to write towards what you think someone wants or what you think the business model is, it's not going to work because it changes so fast. And so for us, I think we would pitch the same show. We would still just be like, this is, you know, we always said about hacks before we pitched it. We really want to watch this. This is a show we would love to watch. And so we would just pitch till today the show that we would want to see and we would want to make. And it's pretty wild because we pitched it in a time where there was this huge desire for content. And as we said, the idea was, oh, we'll all compete with Netflix and they'll be, you know, it's this arms race of streamers. And now it's a totally different world. But for creatives, like, what can you do but make sure your story is when you think it's worth telling and tell it the best you can. But there are still external sources. President Trump is renewed his fight with Jimmy Kimmel, for example, and I'm sure would be fighting with Deborah to the nail. If this was the case, oh, I can't, I can't imagine the names he'd have for Deborah. I can't even imagine. Dance. Try, try. Let's see. That's what the name, well, except JD, that would be a problem. The FCC has ordered the review of all the station licenses for example, owned by ABC, Sherman, Brendan Carr, who I call Brenda is a moron, said last week, quote, this action is driven by investigation into DEI conduct, not speech at all. Again, a moron, you don't have to call them that. I do all the time. I'm going to an entire show called Brendan Carr is a moron. This week. Luccia, a lot of the comedy bros got on the Trump train in part because they thought, "Wokeness was killing free speech in comedy." It's obvious at this point that they never cared about free speech and some of them are regretting their magma move. But nonetheless, what's your take on the, is that affecting things? 'Cause that was a real thing for a minute and a half in comedy, even if they're trying desperately to row in the opposite direction. Yeah, I think that it's so, of course, ironic that the people who are saying, we can't see anything anymore, all the guys who have microphones. It's like, what do you think you're doing? You're talking more than anybody. It's like so. Yes, these are not people who I believe, I think they're either dumb or evil. And I don't know which, sometimes. It depends on each one. It seems like a lot of them are both, they're like dumb with a evil rising. But in any case, yeah, it's, you know, listen, it's like, I could go off for a very long time, just people, and now, of course, so many people are saying, these comedians are saying, oh, yeah, I didn't think that this is what he would do, and it's literally exactly what he said he would do, but I don't think that was actually a question. I think your question is maybe more how it was seeping into actual, the comedy industry. Yeah, I mean, listen, we aren't people who are really interacting with people who are maybe more conservative comedians or the like, so I don't think it feels like anybody we know is like trying to pitch things that feel more middle America, though, that is something in general that like, you do hear out there, like, we don't want coastal comedy. And while I do understand that there are a lot of shows that in New York and LA because that's where a lot of comedy writers are. I can understand something about having a diversity of class on television. That is something that I do think is a bit missing. I think when you look at who is writing all the comedy or these shows, it tends to be people with a certain education level who come from a certain kind of socioeconomic background. So even though I don't believe in any way that it's like, oh, we aren't making shows for this demographic of that, I can understand there's something about people in general feeling like there's a certain kind of only Harvard lampoon tone out in the world. Sure. Not that any of us were in lampoon, we weren't. Okay. All right. Anyone else about this? When you look at this happening, is it affect your work? It's a topic on your show. Yeah. It's interesting. It affects our work in the sense that we, as you've seen, want to speak to it, want to portray it, want to not ignore it. I will say we have been very lucky in our dealings with HBO and no one has ever been anything, but incredibly creatively supportive of us, which I think is just in general kind of the way HBO and HBO Max has always been seen and always operated. The executives there are people who deeply love storytelling and storytellers and support them. So, we've been really lucky in that sense, but of course, we look across the industry and we look at what's happening over at the late show and what would happen with Kimmel. And we see that it's not always so, the water's not always so warm for creatives. And so, while we haven't personally dealt with anything like that, we are very aware of how it is in the atmosphere right now. And what we try to do is support our fellow comedians as best we can when that happens. So Paul, in that regard though, 2019 is very different than 2026 and Hollywood, as you know, is experience a huge contraction after a surge of these streaming more driven investment. Paramount's planned acquisition of Warner Brothers is the latest merger in the wave of consolidation. Hollywood and across the broader entertainment energy, they will own HBO. Are you worried about that? Are you experiencing the effects of consolidation in your work right now? Do you think about it as you pitch and develop new projects or just this, we're going to just pitch the way we pitch? You know, I don't know that it's affecting the way that we pitch or the way that we work, but it's of course concerning. There's less places to sell to. The marketplace is changing a great deal. And also, you know, it's hard to predict what the future will be because it looks so different than it did in 2019. I think our hope is that because even at HBO and HBO Max, you know, under Warner media, there have been so many regime changes in just the time that we've been there. It's felt like sort of the common wisdom is leave HBO alone, let Casey Bloyes do a Casey Bloyes does. If it's not broke, don't fix it. And I really hope that that's the case because like General and Chief were saying, we have felt such great support creatively in terms of what we've wanted to make and what we wanted to say, even things that could maybe brush up against things that in the media landscape, you know, they might say, well, is that about us, even though it isn't necessarily, they've just been like, make the show you want to make. So I hope that that is what happens because we really love the people that we've worked with. But yeah, I think everyone has a level. There's like an undercurrent of anxiety for everybody that it's like, well, it's basically because these are tech owners. Exactly. These are tech owners. I don't have any sense of humor in case you're interested. It's not just, yeah. And also like their need for growth, not just profit, but growing profit is really scary because it's like, you know, an industry that for a century was profitable that creatives and executives alike made money. They made a profit. Did that profit grow every single year? I don't know. I don't know. Yeah. It's a very different. But it's now it's about. These are different cats. Yeah, very different. You'll be reaching for the Tony Gullivan characters soon enough. I know. As villainous as he can act like because he is very not that in real life. Lovely guy. Lovely, lovely, lovely person and excellent actor. I do think it's like, he's nothing compared to what, you know, we could be up against it. Sure. Let's come and down. I can tell you, I know your new owners quite well. I'll be leaving CNN. That's how I'll have to tell you if I'm publicly said I'm leaving CNN because of it. I just don't care to spend time with them. Anyway, life's too short for me. And I have too many options. Anyway, Hollywood people have less options, unfortunately. So let's, speaking of that, end up. We have two more questions on tech in the future because it's impossible not to do a interview without talking about AI at any point in anything we do now. But in a recent New York Times, opinion essay, author Colson Whitehead, amazing author, wrote about AI saying, if you use it for your art, you're a freaking hack. AI tools are often pitched to artists as a way to help them enhance and refine their work. It's already being used, obviously, in film production. Sometimes it's fine. Jen, you directed an episode this season of focuses on AI, how it's being used in the industry without giving too much away. How do you look at it when you think about this growing trend? I mean, I think that I'm clapping for what Colson Whitehead said. I'm saying, yes, we agree very much that if you use it in your work, you're a hack. That is very much the point of the episode that we did. I'm not an AI expert. I cannot speak to it in medicine or other industries. But the general sense that we have is really scary that tech is always trying to replace humans and replace humans with this technology in all industries. And that is certainly not what we need, especially not in this country when we can't provide health care for people and people can't make a living wage. But then in terms of the creative industry, that I can't speak to because I've done for a very long time. And there's just no need to push this technology on us. It's not going to make things better. The way we have told stories, we've figured that out. As Debra says in the episode, we don't need to optimize it. There's this constant push of tech to optimize, optimize, optimize. Their fame at work. And to what end, if you remove all the friction, if you remove all the grist in life, you're left with nothing. And that's very true about the creative process. That is what this show has said for many years. The grist and the struggle and the friction is part of the process. It's what makes art good. Without that friction, without that grist, it's a different thing. And you don't want that because I promise you all the art that you've enjoyed for centuries now, artists had to deal with that grist. They had to deal with that friction. They had to question things. They had to feel insecure about it. They had to explore 8,000 different ways to go about it. They didn't go to a type in a prompt of what would be the best way for this character to get out of this. It's just I'm telling you, the friction and the grist is necessary part of the process and it should not be removed. Yeah. It seems less is one of their other. Let's make it seamless. I'm like, how about we don't? It's not supposed to be seamless. Let's see the same. Yeah, let's see. Yeah. All right. So I have one more question. Taking a step back, Hacks follows a long tradition of movies and shows about making movies and shows from 8.5 to the player. It's a Larry Sanders show. Oh, what a classic. 30 Rock. The aforementioned Andraugh is now Hollywood's. In trouble, we're seeing this in the stories that Hollywood tells about itself. Let's push forward five years. If you're making a Hacks reboot in 2031. What are Debra and Abe going to be dealing with? Lutzi, you go first. Then, Jen, then Paul, you get the last word. God. I don't know. Obviously, I mean, I'm not a psychic, but I wonder if they want to start just making stuff on their own. I feel like that's where we came from. You know, Paul and I started making videos for YouTube. That's how our career started. And Jen and I actually met in a sketch group where we made videos as well. So I don't know where the industry goes, but I could say I think that it would be fun to watch them pick up a camera and start making an independent film or something like that. It could be fun because, you know, as you're saying, the industry is kind of, I don't think it. A lot of people are very doomsday about it. I'm actually not to be honest with you. I just feel that people are constantly wanting to watch media. And yes, I think the internet and YouTube is taking a big bite out of that, but I still believe that people get love being lost in stories. And I don't believe that's ending anytime soon. But I do think that we're still figuring out ways to access those stories to make those stories. But I do think the two of them figuring out they want to, they want to tell a story and figuring out how to do it themselves would be fun to watch. And then they could figure out distribution. Yeah. Yeah. Jen? I think I'll piggyback on Lucius and say that probably as the, as things with gatekeepers get more and more consolidated, they're going to look outside of that system to make their work. And so maybe, maybe the reboot starts with Deborah having the world's biggest yard sale of all her aunties and artwork because they are trying to fund their projects. And that's where we find them. A live citizen came, right? Yeah. Yeah. What is this sled here? What is this? That's a pepper shaker. That's her pepper shaker. Oh, pepper shakers. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Pepper shakers. Paul, you get the last word. Oh, well, you know, the three of us were at a fundraiser where we saw it. Sarah McBride speak and then she was talking about how she's amazing. I just mess with her. She's amazing. She's incredible. I mean, and I how charismatic and how it was so helpful to get a little jolt of hope in a time that seems very bleak because she talked about how over the course of history, you know, it feels like this is the end of time so much and she was saying that it felt even worse before the New Deal. It felt even worse before civil rights movement. It felt even worse before women had the right to vote and the suffragettes had tried and tried and tried and tried and tried and tried and were failing. So it's been a long time that people have felt this way and you have to maintain your hope. And I don't want to contradict that. But I think I'm like, maybe it maybe maybe the reboot starts in Deborah's bunker in New Zealand and Ava's like, we have to get out and fight. We have to fight the robots for water. We have to do that because it's even though even though it has seemed bleak and it's probably seem bleak. But go ahead. You're right. I need to use their data. Yeah, that is a cool it. That's right. So I don't know. I think I think it's just unfortunately, it seems like even though there have been many times in history when we said the end is near, this is a time where we're like, but really though, this is this is it, right? So I don't know. And in 2031, I think Ava is, you know, hopefully revolutionizing Deborah and having her use her arsenal of wealth to keep humanity alive in some way. All right. I think we'll end on that note. Anyway, thank you so much. It's a wonderful series and you've made a beautiful piece of art. Really. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thanks so much. Thanks a lot. Coming from you. Thank you. Today's show was produced by Christian Castro Vicelle, Michelle Aloy, Catherine Milsob, Megan Bernie and Kaylyn Lynch. Neshaut Kerwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts, special thanks to Madeline LaPlanet Dubie, Sam Lee and Julia Sharp Levine. Our engineers are Fernando Aruda and Rick Juan and our theme music is by Tracademics. If you're already on the show, you're a no woman, but to be ignored. If not, you're Bob Lipka. Go wherever you listen to podcasts search for on with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to on with Kara Swisher from Podium Media at New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network and us. We'll be back on Monday with more.