The CPTSD Podcast Season 1, Episode 4: Developmental Trauma, Toxic Parents and How to Recover - The CPTSD Podcast

Speaker 1 Hello, and welcome to episode 4 of the sea PTSD podcast. I am joined as always with my colleague and counterpart Tabitha bird, Weaver LM ft licensed. Professional counselor, my name is Beth Pace. I'm a licensed professional counselor supervisor and we if you've been listening this long, we're so happy that you joined us. If this is the first time welcome we have got such a juicy topic on the agenda today. Because I get pretty fired up when I'm liking. There's cultural historical components to what you're going through. And one of the things that can be a really tough part of any sort of healing journey is like the waking up part waking up to the circumstances of your life and deciding whether or not they are. All right with you. and, The other thing I'm going to commit to you today. I'm going to probably get really fired up, but I'm not going to curse. And I am not going to be doing as much interrupted. I listened to our last episode and like tab was about to say something that I'm like, all right? Cause like, you know, when and today I'm going to use my listening ears with that said with that preface Tabitha is going to start us off and just talk a little bit about our topic for the day. Yeah, I'm pretty excited. So Speaker 2 have at it, tab it on Beth, thank you. And I love your passion. So thank you for bringing that here. I would be okay if you let a little cursed pop in there, but you know, Speaker 1 how editor is, like what it? I don't know what he does when I do it, but I think it's probably one of those like boiling, like, or like a bleeping sound, which is funny to me, but we're keeping it clean. We are. We are at work, you know, that way like, Dad never has to get mad at you if you don't curse. Speaker 2 Oh my gosh. And that the, what a great introduction to our Speaker 1 my God. I know what I said that I was like, all right, here Speaker 2 we go, right? What we're going to be talking about today. I think might be free-flowing instead of some of the more organized ways we've talked about brain structure and other things like that, that kind of require that step-by-step piece. So today, what we're going to be talking about is see PTSD that is created in childhood versus as an adult. And how parenting really, really impacts that because there are things that can happen in childhood that are not the responsibility of your parents like, natural disasters, things like that. But really, most of the clients that I see a, My Own Story start with the way we were parented. And so I think there's probably a Underlying idea about parents who helped us develop see PTSD. That is an emotional immaturity and there are a lot of different ways that can be expressed just right off the bat. I'm going to say. If you want to read more about that specific topic, there's a great book called adult children of emotionally immature parents please. Don't be surprised if you see yourself in there as well, which is what One of the things I would like to talk about as we progress into this topic is I had to alter my own parenting as I was coming in to an understanding of what my life experience actually meant in terms of C PTSD? Yeah, you know, another thing to say would be like don't be surprised if it's hard to finish. If you pick it up and you read you, maybe like even the idea of reading it, you're like, you read a chapter or two and you're like, one of my clients told me once when I Speaker 1 That book they were like it sort of feels like I'm reading like a horror novel. It's so activating and I was just like, yeah, imagine that you only had to read like a page or paragraph at a time. Like don't stop, right? Because that's fear keeping you from doing something that may be really functional and healthy for you. But won't be surprised if it's a challenge. This is not reading like a technical book about your profession. It's like, it's like having somebody open your chest up and like Poke around in your internal Speaker 2 organs. Yeah, it's pretty darn intense. And so I would second to everything you're saying Beth and add if you choose to read this book and you want to take the positives that Beth is describing. That would be a really great step into self-care. And as you read of, you're finding yourself triggered use some of the very, you know, Frontline, basic skills that we've already talked about like, breathwork in our series to process the emotional response. Is one of the cornerstones of emotionally, immature, parents, and children, because I also was emotionally immature in some ways, having not had modeling to learn what to do in certain situations, right? That takes practice and Beth, you've been talking, consistently about how we have to practice new skills. So if you choose to read the book, take it slow or Barrel through it, whatever fits you best but don't be surprised if it Shocking. So getting back on topic with the immature, parent, emotionally, immature parent. There is a lack of Tolerance of emotionality across any type of an emotionally mature parent. And the two that I have personal experience with our parents who disappear or aren't present and rejecting parents. And I think there's also a driven type of parent and other reasons people are emotionally mature and how they express that. And but it's pretty damaging to go through your childhood with a lack of connection and the lack of reflection. And I would love to hear your thoughts about that connection and reflection piece bath. Speaker 1 Yeah. So, when you are just saying there's another kind that, like driven kind what I really think about is my childhood which in which like, perfectionism and achievement were the expectations. So one of the one of Of the mysteries of dysfunctional. Families is a lot of times. They look so good on the outside. That that's also kind of perpetuating the like, where's the problem? There's no problem here. So, when you talked about driven, I think about perfectionism and perfectionism really is not about Excellence. It's about fear, it's all about fear, right? And so, there's yeah, there's that kind where you know there can be to bring it into the realm of attachment Styles, which a lot of times people sometimes feel a little more familiar with, You can have a parent who is smothering you or essentially trying to meet their emotional needs through you? That's extremely damaging, but you can't ever say that there isn't love but the love ain't right. Okay, but then there are like emotionally abandoning parents who, you know, whenever you've got needs are nowhere to be found. And so, you know, you can often learn to just Not have needs at all. And then, you know, there are the Speaker 2 The Speaker 1 one-two punch of disorganized attachment, where you getting a little bit of both of that, right? Like, turn on a dime today, mom's your best friend and like she's going to tell you about her dating life and you're like 10. But later today, if your room is dirty and someone just broke up with her like she is about to let you have it and it's so confusing because you have to be able to figure out kind of, which of your parents you're dealing with on Given moment in time, which is, which is how hyper vigilance that like, constant hyper-awareness of cues nonverbal cues. Because you can't go up to your mom and be like, how many beers have you had? Because if it's three on three or under, you can tell her about your day, you can ask her what's for dinner, you know? But if she's had three or more, you know, it's an important time to make. Ourselves scarce, maybe you'll come back down into the kitchen, and make yourself a peanut butter, and jelly sandwich later. But like, you need to be able to sense that without ever having Ted like infer to your mother, that there is Speaker 2 something the matter. This is, Speaker 1 right? So this is we talked about like reflection connection rejection which I did not get into. I was like oh here's this other piece. From the ages of 0 to like three. You need to be like, the center of the universe. Yeah, we really do for your healthy human development. You needed to be the apple of everyone's eye and, like back, say from an evolutionary standpoint when we were in groups of like, 8 or 12, which we do really well in that size, not much bigger. You ever read the book sapiens? You talks he breaks down like what happens to us as our societies grow and kind of what we need in order to make that manageable and like mythology is a big part of that but including just things like if you break the rules, something bad will happen to you. Right? That's not always true. But like, if we believe that myth, then, you know, I don't run stop signs because I don't want to get a ticket. All right? So there's only like 8 or 12 of us. Our children are our most precious resource. We need them to pass on our genetic code. Speaker 2 Code. Speaker 1 And we treat. And, and we're probably not having nearly as many children there's or, or if we're having a lot of children, there dying infant, mortality rate is pretty high, like we're treating children, like they are extraordinarily precious, kids need that. That's what they need for brain development from like 0 to Speaker 2 3, right? And they have that experience whether the people around them, or supporting it or not, because children, as you're talking about are fundamentally egocentric, it's however, Lips and it's appropriate. It's not appropriate for a 40 year old or 50 year old parent or 27 year old parent to be completely self-absorbed. The way an infant or toddler would be and I think that that's really the Crux of emotional immaturity I know exactly when I started having problems with one of my with both of my parents right? And it's because at a certain point in my maturity level matched, there's And I was starting to notice. Hey that that's not how this works, you know like you can't throw temper tantrums when you go to kindergarten, you learn that you cannot have fits and get your way. Well, sometimes parents, don't learn that and the bottom line is when we're not the apple of the eye like you were saying that was lovely, we end up figuring out that the problem is us, right? Like if I were a better kid, My parents would do things differently and that's not necessarily A logical thing that were thinking at that age, but it's the experience that ends up happening. The the felt sense with no words. You don't have any words for this but you've got a feeling of wrongness. Yeah, and that will come flooding back now even when you're an adult, right? So that that idea of like needing to be the center of attention as a child and then and then like, Maybe from around like three to seven or eight. It's not out of the realm of possibility. When you ask kid, who's your best friend for them to be like my mom, they are number one. Yeah, we do everything together. Speaker 1 She make me chicken nuggets, it's lit. But then at a certain point, right? So if you've got one, if you have one of those caregivers that was like, you're my best friend and don't you ever forget it? The problem happens in like a later stage of development, you need to of in individuate. Make your own friends, have your own life, shut your door, have some privacy, even just like not physical privacy necessarily but like privacy in your internal life. Life, Speaker 2 you know? Speaker 1 And if you're not allowed to have that because you've got a parent who is emotionally mature, they may be, like they may be needing you and using you in a particular way where you are, also not getting a chance to mature yourself in order to know what you like. And you don't like, say what works for you and what doesn't figure out, what kind of friends you want to have? What kind of friends you don't want to have what things you like to do at school things. You don't. What to do at school? Or, you know, when someone's like, come over here and snuggle me, if you're not feeling that as a kid, you need to be safe enough to go right now. No, thank you because you can't do that and you're like feeling trapped because that's what your caregiver wants is like nurturance in that moment. This is what this is what having an emotionally immature, parent feels like, because their needs, Come before yours. Right, Speaker 2 every time their needs come before yours, right? Well, even if something looks positive on the outside underneath, it's not fueled by their benevolence. It's fueled by what they need to feel good about themselves. And so, I just want to like, put a marker right here and say, one of the hardest things for us to do as we grow and heal through C, PTSD is to name the things and or even identify the things. Is that happen to us? And in our lives to create see, PTSD in us. And the reason I want to pause here is to remember that we have to do two things. When we're healing from parental damage, one is create new boundaries and that is hard to do when you're not even sure what the boundaries are. And so there's some that's why we're talking about emotional immaturity today, if there's some importance for you, to figure out what Healthy boundary and what isn't and what's confusing about that? For a lot of us is that things that feel good like snuggling somebody when they need it but you don't want to makes me a good person is what we've learned and it's really hard to see through that because it just seems like reality right? Not necessarily a problem. The other thing is even if you decide to have no contact moving forward with your parents because perhaps they're still neglecting are abusing you or they just can't take responsibility in a way that you need them to. We can still have compassion and empathy for them because parents who are emotionally. Immature also probably had emotionally immature parents. And so it is part of the cycle of abuse and neglect. That happens in our Speaker 1 society. Yeah, so I got to so Speaker 2 high. I was getting punished. So be a cycle breaker. Speaker 1 Yes, Speaker 2 right be a cycle breaker, what are you excited when you were talking about boundaries because like what if the what if the the culture of your family is No Boundaries, is love, right? And so whenever you try to set them or you are whenever you try to like say no you're either going to get like punishment. Shame, you know, whatever that is. So then Speaker 1 Is it dolt? What that can sometimes show up? Like, which is really is madness. The word, I'm going to use his Madness and I'm using it on purpose, I'm going to come back to. Why is that adult children of emotionally? Immature? Parents? Or sometimes, you'll hear it described as, like, adult children of family, dysfunction can sometimes in order to protect themselves in order to have boundaries will participate in what's called relationship, anorexia meaning, they just don't have relationships at all. Well, I go that that seems protective but then what it also sets you up for in this is really amazing. Is someone who doesn't recognize boundaries is the one who is going to like bus through your boundaries and be like I love you and I'm gonna love you and you're going to lend your like yeah. Okay this is familiar. So I'll get so It Isn't. So when you're doing when you're doing relationship anorexia somebody with like healthy boundaries, who is adept Like, figuring out whether or not someone's available as like, okay, huh. Press is not emotionally available so without have healthy boundaries who is not Adept at figuring out if you're available or not is like oh you not being available is so juicy what a juicy Peach for me and so you find yourself getting into because you said right like giving somebody what they want, even if it's not right for you makes you a good person and I think we need to like carve out some time for mister. Rust to talk about like mistrust and self-mistrust in systems because then if somebody goes, oh no, this is not a problem. This is not me taking up too much of your time. This is not me, like me stocking you at work is not a thing. That's just what people who love each other do. Yeah, you have a very deep mistrust and yourself and somebody's like, yeah, I can totally convinced you otherwise and you're like, well, the past, At least resistance is to tell you that I agree with you and to give you what you Speaker 2 want. And maybe I'm being judgmental, maybe I don't understand where you're coming from. Maybe it is my fault, which is how I was geared to role for decades. Speaker 1 Yes, it's true. Speaker 2 I think that mistrust piece is really important to recognize and there's a technique and let's so let's talk more about it. But I wanted to talk about technique that we're using in counseling, all the time that you can do and probably do do already. D called reframing. So I want to tell just a little story and it's not about me yesterday. I had a client who had an appointment and her significant other broke up with her. And we were talking about how part of her was in horrible grief about that because a lot of years of connection had just been severed. But also there was this pervasive relief that she was experiencing And so we talked a little bit about that and she told me the story and this partner is a non recovered alcoholic who assaults her when he's been drinking and she's been making reasons that he's getting better or it's not that bad the whole time and she is aware of this, right? So yesterday he broke up with her and what he said was, if you can't trust me, what are we doing here? And that threw her for a loop because she felt like she was the problem for not being trusting enough. Can you feel where I'm going with this bath mmm-hmm? And so the reframe was Hey what if it's not that you're not trusting but like what if he had said this to you? Oh my gosh, you've discovered I'm lying and not trustworthy. And I'm not going to change my ways. So I got to go because I can't use you anymore. More. Yeah, yeah. And she cried for 20 minutes in relief owning that. And so there's a lot of reframing we have to do, especially with parental relationships because of that nonverbal felt sense. And because of the longevity and developmental processes, we were going through when the damage occurred, right? So as far as you trust in yourself, I think that is a core skill that you are going to have to learn and it's challenging. So while you're learning to trust yourself, also learn to be kind to yourself. What are your thoughts? Beth Speaker 1 challenging and painful? Because when you start trusting yourself the people in your life, start rejecting you when you're like hey this doesn't work for me and they're like, doesn't work for you. Don't you know, everything that I do for you on a regular like Oh boy, if you've never been manipulated by someone who is emotionally immature, it would be my supposition. That you are not listening to this podcast. So if you are listening to this podcast and you're like I don't know what she's talking about. That's never happened to me. Keep listening, we love you. We want you here. The example I used for my client sometimes and it's really poignant but it's also really disturbing not. I mean it's imaginary but like trigger warning. This is. This is painful stuff. Of in my office is a very large, very solid desk. I work with individual clients so across the room for me, is my client sitting there. I'm sitting in a chair and over here is the desk and I ask this adult with me. I'm like, imagine there's like a ten-year-old in the room with us sitting in this other chair and and she's got a huge gusak. Like a big old bump on her forehead, and we look at her and go. Why did you get that? Um, would you get that bump on your forehead? And she goes, I bumped my head on that desk. And then you and I the adults in the room, look at her and go what desk? Speaker 2 Oh I don't see a desk. Speaker 1 See you this? And so she's sitting there like What? That's right there. So for a little while, she might keep trying to go like no, no, no. I see it. It's right there. Now we are the like I just gave myself chills and I made this up, okay? Like this is an imaginary example that this is what's happening in these households daily daily. So we'll just further this imaginal exercise because we are the adults and I'm using finger quotes if you're only listening to the audio because we are the adult It's we have more psychological power to manipulate. That doesn't make us more mature. Oh my God, what we're doing. We these two adults who are looking at this kid and going me like honestly you'd ask do you see a desk and she's starting to feel like Oh shoot what is happening? And then maybe at some point. We look at her and we go and we really don't appreciate you. Not telling us the truth. Okay, tell me the truth. And so now this child is got to do because we've essentially like set the tone that we're not leaving this super uncomfortable interaction into we get what we need, what we Speaker 2 want, right? Speaker 1 So she's going to have to apologize for lying for telling the truth Speaker 2 and then she's Speaker 1 going to have to make up a lie that satisfies us. And we'll all agree that. That's the truth. Welcome Speaker 2 back lighting Speaker 1 right Y in why in the world would to chronologically adult human bodies do such a thing to a child. The only reason that I can comprehend is because it was done to them already. They have a vested interest in not seeing the same desk that they got their own head cracked on. Yep and then somebody else went what desk I don't see a desk. What are you talking about? And so, when you think about what it must feel like to be angry, scared confused. And then eventually like desperate trapped, desperate to escape, because we're not like there's a door in my office, this imaginary kid could walk out of the door but the, but the arresting power of what's happening. In this little triangle, it's like a deer in headlights. She's trap. Speaker 2 Absolutely. And we biology is powerful. We want to be with and accepted by our parents. So we will figure out the way to get rid of the desk in the Speaker 1 scenario. And we'll tell you we the we the dysfunctional adults are going to give you the path. Call yourself a liar and now will soothe you and tell you were so sorry about that bump on your head. Why? I don't even if that happens or if we're like, we are a liar, you really hurt my feelings, right? I'm very disappointed in you. I need ice cream and you are going to have to stay home. Like it's just really twisted stuff. If Speaker 2 it's stand Speaker 1 the so twisted and it's also extraordinarily sad. So when last episode I talked about the the video that Gabor maté briefly talks about like authenticity versus attachment. This is a great example, kid needs to stay safe in with these adults because she has to keep eating the breakfast that they make her in the morning. And she still needs them to like Take her to school. So she can't, like, what she gonna do. Like, assert that there is something true happening here, or you got to pick your battles, right? You pick your battles. And so if that was happening to you over the course of a lifetime, you look to other people's perception of reality. Before you check your own because that's safer Speaker 2 for you. Yep. And it becomes the way it is. We don't think about behaving like that or feeling like that as a coping mechanism, because it's just reality. It's what we had to do to survive and it's now Neroli wired that that's the right path. So that's that's the hurdle to get over. I think that's a great example. The desk. And as you were talking, another example I can use with the desk is how How about when you get that goose egg on your head and you say well that desk is what gave me this goose egg and the response is, what were you doing wrong to hit the desk? Like you should watch the way you walk right? Why weren't you ready to catch yourself when you fell and so this blaming of the ago you do all right? And so we grow up thinking everything that does not go right in our life. Is our fault and responsibility. When in reality is not everything works out in life. It's just how it is. Some things go easily, some things are hard, some things never take off. And so that self-blame is really complicated to start. Working out whose responsibility your way of functioning is ultimately as an adult, it's yours, right? And you get, you get to figure out how to make changes so that you live a more neurologically comfortable and soothed lives. But it's also important to make sure that you understand the root and where that blaming comes from. So, Speaker 1 back to this idea of emotionally, immature parents, like what you need? What you actually do. Need is an adult who is resource to enough to help you make sense of the world. So, you come home from school, you got into a fight with your friend, your parent is like like, What happened and maybe you as the kid or like, she's mean, they're mean this this, and then maybe that parents like, okay, okay. Sounds like you got your feelings hurt, what else was going on? And I clean I mean I did puncher, you know, in like we were on the playground at recess and so that parent instead of being like punish you, he's like Okay. Sounds like that action. Had the consequence that now, your friend is really mad at you like what do you want to do? Do now that sort of emotional maturity and non reactivity requires from adults, enough capacity to tolerate distress that they can stay calm. When things are difficult or confusing because my first thought, if I've got a kid, he's like yeah, punched my little sister because she did, she took my toy, you know, you want your you want to be like Punish that behavior. We will eradicate. It children are very fragile, so if you're like, Hey, listen, it's okay to be mad. It's okay to say that you don't like it. When someone takes your toy, it's not okay to punch your little sister. You know, in this family here are our rules, but when we talk about emotional immaturity, we can also talk about it from that kind of like neurobiological level of. If you have a parent, does not have distress tolerance, which is a Terrific term to mean Shocker. The ability to tolerate distress. Emotional distress. They can't deal with you having problems. They have got to shut that down somehow. Sounds like it was your fault. That's right. How are you teaching your kid? Something when you're like, well, sounds like you messed up. Try better next time. What? Speaker 2 Well, you are teaching them. It's just not help us become emotionally mature, adults ourselves. So, you know, I think that one of the things that comes up a lot around this topic is the idea of narcissism and and that is a Hot Topic right now everywhere I look there's somebody writing an article or doing a Blog about it and I just wanted to say that fundamentally all emotionally immature. Parents have narcissism involved in there. That doesn't mean they're diagnosed or diagnosable as a narcissist. So just to separate those two things, right? And what I would like to stick with for what I'm talking about right now is the idea of self absorption versus this movie type idea. We have of what a narcissist is. The self absorption is off the charts with emotionally immature and in unavailable parents due to their own wounding. So, again, we can have compassion. Passion for that, and it's still an appropriate. Right? Right. But they mostly cannot tolerate. That idea of I've done something that was not good, right? Appropriate smart, whatever their core belief structure is. That's keeping them stuck. So be aware that as you grow. And, as you mature, that ability to own also where you have not done, well, is important. And so, it makes this Process complicated and painful. And I think we've said that like, five times today bath. Yeah, right. Because not only do you have to heal from the things that we're done to you. You may have to heal from what you've done. I remember the day where my kid did something, and I pointed and said something, and it was my dad's finger. I felt I could even see he's had a mole on his finger, my whole life like the mole was there even though it was my finger, right? And I went, oh, Oh no, we are not doing that. Yeah, that stopped me in my tracks and and helped me realize I was wanting to respond harshly to my kid because I felt insecure in what he needed. I didn't, I didn't know what to do, even though actually I did. But that emotional imprint came over. Yeah, my emotional flashback of being, I'm going to get rejected, I'm going to be incompetent, all of those negative, self-talk things that I've been. Looking through my adulthood and that started a new path with me and my Kido where we literally, for the last. Several years have been saying things. Like, I, I have been saying, I understand that, I taught you to speak that way to me, and we're not doing it anymore. Speaker 1 Love and loves that Speaker 2 like anymore, and that is old. So, what's a better way, or a different way that you could say what you need to say to? Because I want to hear it and that's really important, right? Right. Maybe, maybe just if you don't have kids you can also use this on your inner child. Speaker 1 Right? And when we think about like where can you practice it in relationships where the cost or the charge isn't? Hi. Yep. So like with a co-worker who doesn't light up all your trauma. Activation like Pathways you can be like, hey, I'm really working on blanking. Now if you can support me in this, when you hear me, do blank like. So then that way, it isn't one of those people where you're like, even the thought of talking to them about something, makes your throat, close up, thinking about like one of those low key relationships are like with your neighbor where you're like, um, hey, I know I've been I've been letting you park in front of my house but like I need to be on me to use that parking space for myself. I don't know that. Maybe that one's too activating. Another thing I wanted to mention as you were talking is if you hear Tabitha say like, here's what I was able to do also want to remind you that she's been in recovery from like we've both been doing a lot of work on like trauma, healing in our own lives for a very long time. So we're not saying be like us do this tomorrow, we're not trying to keep shame because the thing I also need to talk to my clients about on a regular basis is you go out into the world and people are like, I got great relationships with my parents and then they start telling you about their relationships with their parents and you're like, You sure? You sure, sounds pretty messed up, so you hear people go. It's all in the past now. Baby doesn't bother me at all. And I'm here to tell you that, if you try to do that, like, spiritual bypass forgiveness stuff. Before, in time, what you're essentially doing, is trying to jump over the mound of stuff that's been swept under the rug for a lifetime and you will find yourself tripping over That same spot for the rest of your life, while you continue to say. I'm fine past is the past. I know they were doing their best. So, you know. Listen, that's the thing about the madness. The rage is. You actually have to not emotionally re-experience it, because that's like this idea of trauma activation. You got to desensitize and reprocess it. Yep. So that doesn't mean jumping over the mound of stuff. They got swept under Under the rug for a lifetime. I used to describe like you know, if you grew up in a family of Rogue sweepers, everything just gets swept under the rug or better yet generations of rug sweepers. Okay which is why when you go to a family function, everybody's acting real cool until a few people get drunk and then it all just kind of like blows up. That's because people been sweeping stuff under the rug for the last like 70 years, right? Plus plus, so That's where like that's why that self-compassion process is such a foundational piece of trauma recovery. Is because the day is going to come up that emotions that you don't want to deal with, need to come up like discussed rage Fury or in some like trigger warning and some really excruciating circumstances of abuse being sexually. Used by someone, the body will sometimes can also still responds to touch. So there are pleasure experiences that go along with this extraordinary violation. Yeah, Speaker 2 conferencing all of that Speaker 1 stuff. If we knew any other way to help you get better without you having to do that, that's what we be Speaker 2 offering. Make sure would bath, I'm still looking for the magic pill or the magic wand whatever it Speaker 1 is. We'd be traveling all over the world. There would be like a pyramids like level like multi-level marketing, we train people how to do it. Then they go help people and maybe in like a couple hundred or thousand years like everybody. Let's not like that, not like that. I'm really glad you're bringing up the issue of how much recovery I have done in context of what I just said, because I want to be vulnerable. Speaker 2 And let people know that it was a year before I made a statement like that to my child. After I had been literally on my knees weeping because of what I know, I had passed on. Yeah, from my family of origin weeping that I had harmed him at all ever and that that year in between the recognition of it. And the ownership of my behavior as a parent and that shift to the starting to change the interaction. Evolved, a lot of come to Jesus moment, right? Where I had to own things, I had to release things that have had harmed me. And so, again, compassion for yourself as you're going through this process is key and one of the things I kept telling myself and it might seem like a loop but it, but it kept me. Moving forward was okay. I did Dad, I did that. I acted like my mom or dad and not as bad. I wanted to keep that going for myself. Like, my being very odd, is egregious as what had happened to me so I can take a breath and the next step. Yeah. Because I'm how I'm okay, eventually. I also I knew the whole time but was it able to say to myself even if it's not as bad? It's still the same thing. Yeah. And listen, you know, one of the things I regularly say to my clients in my office is they'll be like I just, you know I saw myself and I like it was acting. Like my caregiver or I was doing this or doing that and I'll be like, can you give me an immediate and immediate and literal example, of how you might be doing something different than your parents did? And they're like, I don't know, did it? And I'm like, how about you're sitting in your therapist office right now, trying to talk about how to do something different. Yeah, so we're, we're kind of we're right at like the 40-minute Mark right now, but there's one of the things, one of the things I want to talk about is like You know. Speaker 1 The waking up part, right. So if you've been under that spell of family, dysfunction of like having an emotionally immature parents, who maybe is still alive who like you still regularly do things for or when they call you and are like I got a dump on you about my week or I need to complain about your father to you. Speaker 2 Or I have an emergency that you need to Speaker 1 fix. I have an emergency that you need to fix whatever it is and then at some point you start with. So like yeah, I would love to Here you talk about that kind of like waking up process. When like this the spell is broken and you start to see these things in a different light because it takes just takes a lot. So I'd be interested to hear you talk about that Speaker 2 very well. I think that we go through multiple stages of waking up at least I did. And that's what I noticed with my clients and usually, that follows a pattern and then I'll get personal just a minute, but usually that follows a pattern of waking up new insight about whatever. The Issue is and then you have to figure out what to do different start doing it differently and then become proficient at it and when you can for example, handle distress in a better way like okay I don't go from 0 to 60 anymore but I do go from 0 to 40 right? That is progress and right and so then once you master that you'll probably have another Insight or Awakening or Enlightenment and realize how to level up your Or game, which guess what takes work and attention and effort and is worth the payoff in the end. So that being said, Beth, I had multiple Awakenings over my personal healing Journey. The first one was when I was in my first therapists office, that was a good therapist and that I trusted and I had done something called a genogram and basically what a genogram is is a map of your family kind of like a family tree but it takes different things. Into account. And so she's looking at this and she said, you know what, I don't see on here. And I'm like, no, because I'm so good at homework. I know I did it, right? Robin look at possibly, not on there. I'm paying you for this validate me lady. Right. Right. And she said, I don't see anger on here. And it was devastating and relieving all at the same time, right? The devastation was that I had missed it. I didn't know. And yet it had been something I was complaining about my whole life, with my dad in particular, right? So that was like, the one of the moments that I feel like, I really woke up to. Oh my gosh, I'm not seeing reality. All right, so the fast forward, 20 years, everybody, 20 years. All right, and I'm a therapist. So I've been doing this a lot. Speaker 1 Thank you. That's right. We're human beings Speaker 2 to right? And so kindness and and know that it's a journey, all of those things that we say to ourselves my last experience with my parents, my dad said something, so egregious that it was my fault, something. So, Ridiculous and I'm weighing right now whether to say what it was or not. So it'll pop out of it needs to but it was so out of bounds of what I could take responsibility for. It was like a punch in the gut, or a slap in the face of, oh my gosh. You are blaming me. And I think I will say it for my brother's alcoholism. My brother's alcoholism is my fault. Zarbor laughing. You know, the reason I'm laughing is because that's just ludicrous. That's ludicrous. Right? I had taken a lot of responsibility for things up to that level. So after that was stated, that is when I decided to not have contact with my family because I can't fix that. And I am more invested in taking care of me and my son and my partner then trying to fix that dysfunctional system. So that waking up process is often like a cup of cold water in your face or a punch. In the gut. I have personally not seen it. The dawning come on, very gently, it's not always, so Stark is what I'm saying. But after waking up and realizing that I could be safe with if my parents weren't in my life. Yeah, that hurt. That hurt. Yeah, Speaker 1 one of the other ways, I'll reflect that. Sometimes this kind of like, aha. Moment hits people, is that? We've already talked about Miss trusting yourself. All right, just because you mistrust yourself, doesn't mean you don't have an emotional life. It's going on underneath the surface are sure if then that is the case and you have spent a lifetime saying, yes, when what you really want to do is say no you probably have. If you've ever heard someone use the turn of phrase pressure bust pipes, you've got that like emotional build-up of resentment. That's like sort of just right at the surface Surface. And then finally or maybe just over the course of time, you are resentful and enraged. And you keep saying yes to these people, right? So like when they're like, hey do blah, blah blah. And you're like, man, you should know better than to ask me to do that. Can't believe I'm about to like ruin my Saturday to zoom, zoom bleep, blop for you and the waking up process also includes kind of what Tabitha is described in action is you can say no yeah and you're going to be choosing Different kind of pain, it's painful it's not the same kind as yes and building more resentment know is I can't do that today. And or can I get back to you? There is and and dealing with whatever someone has to say to you. Now, we are going to we are assuming we are. Assuming in these cases that like you're an adult, you hot. You have the capacity to like separate yourself in these circumstances. If you're living with someone, who is dangerous, who is abusive saying no. No is a lot scarier. So I would I would continue to recommend if you're in a circumstance like that finding a compassionate and equipped. Mental health therapist here in New Orleans, we have. What's called the Family Justice Center that has like counseling will help you will help you take legal recourse but is also not going to shame you about staying, you know. But that if you're in a place where say you live in your own house, you got your own relationships and you've got a family member, or you like, essentially that's what's happening. Is this family system is perpetuating, we're like the expectation. You be responsible for your emotional, Immature parent. You can say, no. And then whatever they have to say to you, hopefully would be the indicator of how ludicrous there and sounds a little disrespectful of how utterly mad their internal life sounds. So hey, I can't do that for you. And they go. Wow, you just don't even know how to be a family member. Do you and you're like, what? That's absolutely what? in in my family told me once, when I set a boundary with them, they were like, wow, you don't even know how to be a family member and I was just like you're entitled to the way that you feel. Let's go ahead and end this call. I'm gonna hop off the line but I had to talk to someone for like 20 or 30 minutes before I set that boundary. So like I could remind my nervous system that this person cannot reach through the phone. And like, do something to me because my my nervous system still goes o danger, danger, danger, danger, at the thing that this person could say or do to you is going to hurt you not anymore. So sometimes because if you're miserable, You the adult child of like family, dysfunction, or like you the person who's got see PTSD, and you are waiting for someone to be sorry for the way that they treat Speaker 2 you. Yeah. Speaker 1 You will wait for a Speaker 2 lifetime. I did. You're dead. You're dead. You're damn straight Baths. On the concert today. You're right. And you don't have to wait. That's right. You also don't have to confront. That's right. That's right. You can just say goodbye if that's what's required is right? In 12-step and mutual support programs. They talk a little bit about this idea of loving someone from a distance and that black maybe that maybe the safest most functional way to have a relationship with that person is to love him from a distance. So love my parents. Yeah. Still with my parents and and no, I'm no contact. I know. That there's a part of me that still wants to help them. And so, sometimes I feel torn even at this part of my journey, right? One of the things that Speaker 1 Is real challenge is a real pain point is, if you got raised in a house where there were these like really sort of rigid ideas around right and wrong. Yeah. A but B they didn't make sense because they were subject to change all the time. The rules changed all the time but there was this sort of allegedly, very stringent, black and white thinking aspect of like, right and wrong. You might be You might be someone right now. Who is trapped in that same sort of Speaker 2 framework. Hmm if Speaker 1 I'm right I deserve to set a boundary if I'm wrong. I deserve to let someone treat me however they want. This is circling back to this idea of like why bother getting in touch with your emotional life because then you can just say my gut is telling me this is not okay with me. This is not okay for me and it isn't about being right. Right. Because someone else is subjective, experience of you. I've had to come to acceptance of that over the course of like my time on this planet. In this lifetime, I am the villain in some people's story. My gosh, I'm a monster. Literally I've heard I'm a monster, right? And we're like, I don't see you that way, know what I mean. So like there are some people who are going to need you to be a villain because that is easier than taking personal responsibility. Yep. But getting back into the ring with them day after day to fight to prove to them that you're right you're good and that you're not a bad guy. Is not worth your energy Speaker 2 anymore, you deserve to reconstruct rather than try to deconstruct and rebuild a relationship that doesn't want to change Speaker 1 or another way to put it is, if you've ever tried to force, someone to do something that they weren't ready or didn't want to do like, say, for example, you are trying to force a partner, or a family member, or a loved one onto the road of health and healing. Do you want to think about it? If you're stuffing someone into a sack and dragging them against their will, Will down the road of Health healing and Recovery. This is otherwise known as kidnapping, all right? And you don't get to do that, that's just you being controlling, Speaker 2 right? Which is actually an outcome that we see frequently. If you have had emotionally, immature parents. So what you want to do that open that you want to control things and then start to realize that you need to stress tolerance skills for when things are out of your control. Yeah. Speaker 1 That is terrifying for us. Yeah. Listen. When I say like, you know, you and listen, I don't I didn't create that metaphor because I'm like a year or like that, I'm like that, okay? Like this is this is human. It is human for us to seek safety through control patterns and you know, one of the most beautiful things. I recently heard this, this Yogi gives like talks about spirituality and things like that and he was like we are in a place in human history. Now where Our evolution is not biological, it's conscious, you get to consciously choose with help and support to evolve Beyond. Survival into thriving. So as usual we have gotten Mega hyped. As usual. I will, I'll say just like one quick like it not in summation but just like a takeaway for you today and then I'd be interested to hear how tab wants to wrap it up. If I if I stepped on your toes and I hurt your feelings today, it's not because I don't care about you. It's because that's also what like getting emotionally supported by someone who like believes in you and believes you have the capacity to make changes compassion is also so that we can look at ourselves and go are the things I'm doing actually working, and giving me the outcomes that I want or are the things that I'm doing perpetuating cycle. So, as it relates to, you know, adult children of emotionally immature parents, there are a couple of things. Tie in Dayton, wrote a book, called emotional sobriety. It's beautiful and she and her spouse were both the children. They were both like they're both social workers. I believe they're both like mental health professionals and they're both the adult children of Alcoholics. So when they met each other they thought naively. Perfect. We're Reckless pitch for each other. We know about alcoholism. We're in the field. We know what we don't want. And we know what we're not going to do and then they started doing the same things to each other that had been done in their family of origin. But because of that Insight that awareness, they both kind of looked at each other and were like, what are we doing? And then they went on this like Health healing and Recovery journey together because wishing and telling yourself. I'm never going to be like my parents. We know that that belief is sincere. We know you mean it. Yeah. But if you don't have anything else to choose from you will be constantly going back to the only skill set that you have how to be an adult as ascertained from the adults. You grew up with. So, my last so emotional, sobriety is a great book. There's an emotional sobriety workbook and you can find there's a place for you. It's called adult children of Alcoholics. It is a 12-step Mutual Support Program where other people who have gone through grown up in the same kind of households, not always the same story but like the same result, which is we are using coping strategies learned in childhood, to manage Our Lives as adults. And it says, like in the ACA literature, it says, if you can handle what comes up at six meetings, you will start to come out of denial. Ice. Yeah. They're like real clear. Like, this is not easy work. It's not easy. Yeah. What about You tab? What are some of your, like, you know, in summation or your takeaways for today? So, the first thing I would say, is all the books were mentioning. Please don't feel compelled to read them, but if you like reading and you're ready to do it, go for it because I have another book to that list called growing up again and if you want to get an image or, you know, a snapshot of what was happening to you, Speaker 2 Developmentally at certain ages, as well as different types of parenting. It's a great book because guess what, everybody, what you're going to do as you begin to heal is re-parent yourself, mmm. So this is a, it's a great primer for that if you want and also an oldie but a goodie and died. Say that right? An oldie. But a goodie, Speaker 1 you said that ancient colloquialism. Just Speaker 2 right codependency. No more. Speaker 1 It's less on. How Speaker 2 we can feel insane and behave insanely because of other people's behavior, right? And it's not a blaming book because you got to own it and change. But those are two, I would recommend. And I think that my final tip and I'm saying this lovingly, is if any of this resonates with you, I would like you to know High chances are you were, at least emotionally neglected, if not, it, neglected and abused emotionally as a child, right? That was another woke moment. I had, you know, about halfway through this process of healing is realizing neglect because I had enough food. I went to activities, all those things that we think about neglect as far as physical and well-being, physical Being we're fine, they were checked right? But the emotional neglect piece that was rough to own. I didn't want my parents to be like that because at that time I thought it meant something about me. I did that I wasn't I wasn't worth caring for Speaker 1 oh okay do we have time for one more thing Speaker 2 we do? I just want to say you are worth caring for. That's right. That's right. What you got bad? Speaker 1 In a very short order, one day in my neighborhood, I was watching, you know, someone in my neighborhood but who I don't know. Well, she was walking with her four-year-old and he's like walking a like maybe 10 feet in front of her and she's just kind of like running a narrative. Like how did you get so stupid? I don't like how are you. And you know, and I'm just I was just horrified but also you know, it in that moment. The other thing is like responsibility does not mean taking blame, it is not my job in that moment to stop that woman and say don't, you know, trouble because it's a kid, but I was like, I was so hurt. I was so I was so pained for that little boy and he's just kind of like walking along like bopping along head down just kind of like, and you really got the image in that snapshot that like this is how she was talking to him a lot and then a day or so later. I found this article not because I was looking for it but it just sort of like popped up. It was like, what are we looking at? When we see adults yelling at their children and In brief. The author was essentially saying that if you, if I were to stop that woman and say, why are you emotionally abusing your child? She might look at me and go. What are you talking about? I'm just preparing him for the world. Yes, world is how she sees the world. The author is continuing to say when you watch someone yell at their kid, all you're seeing is the outer expression. The outer manifestation Ation of their internal narrative about themselves. So because our parents didn't emotionally mature because they didn't differentiate from their own parents because they didn't unblended. And when they look at us their children, they just see a little Speaker 2 them. Yes. Speaker 1 And so how they're treating a little them is just how they treat themselves. So every time, every time someone's like, I want to have more loving Ships. I want to be a better parent to my kids. We always start with self-compassion because you can't transmit a skill that you have. Not got Speaker 2 my gosh. Yes. Speaker 1 We got too hyped. I think we're like, well, over an hour. It happened to be. Speaker 2 Okay, it'll be Speaker 1 okay. That's right. So if you stuck with us, this whole way, thank you so much for listening. Please keep listening. Share this with your friends. You can you can like rate and subscribe on any of the platforms that you are listening to this podcast on. And if there's only one person who listens to this, we live for Speaker 2 We do indeed and you can do it. You can handle Speaker 1 this, that's right. Speaker 2 So if you want to get ahold of us, you can reach us at tab at the CPD as podcast.com and you can reach Beth Speaker 1 at Beth at the sea PTSD. Podcast.com, they could shoot us an email and say what you want to hear more topics about or you can, you know, say you can even be like Here's a super famous person that we think you should have as a guest and will be like, we're probably not in their pay grade but you know, maybe you know, I'm give me a shout. Yeah, please keep listening. And if it's helpful, please just keep hearing the point. We're trying to continue to get which is like this process, you deserve it. Yes, you deserve to be able To break the patterns of family dysfunction and you can do. So you can indeed. And if you're afraid of the pain we've been talking about today. That makes sense and view it like productive pain. Whereas you've been living in unproductive pain this whole time. Anyway this is productive pain and we hope that you come out of your process knowing how valuable you are how important you are and how competent Our. That's right. That's right. Thanks again, for a great talk tab. We'll see you next time guys. Speaker 2 Bye everybody.