The Couple That Spent $650K and 34 Years Researching a REAL UFO Crash

♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ Yeah, there was. Yeah, you're on. And Frank Thayer, I think, you know, should be mentioned as well. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Anything you want to say about Frank? Frank was our third writer and he was with us through all three books and a good friend. He was a professor at the University of Las Cruces, New Mexico, and his specialty was journalism and a very, very dear friend. And unfortunately, first part of July this year, he passed away. So there is a joy in the fact that he was able to see the book before he passed because it was important. That was really important. But we will miss him and we miss him every day. Of course. I'm sure you did him very proud in his work. I'm very excited to talk about it. So I'd like to start by getting into it. All right. We got it. We got to get to get through it. We got to go. We got to go into it. And this story is just riddled. You said something to me in the car today. You said there's more twists and turns to this story than a bag of pretzels. And that's the truth, because there's been attempts to debunk this, you know, in the past by by both journalists and the government. There's been an active cover up that you guys have actually kind of proven. There is a lot of history in this story. It is the most underreported crash. A recovery story that has the most to it. It's got witnesses. It's got there's a paper trail. There's I mean, there's there's a crash site with actual evidence at the crash site still to this day that I saw with my own eyes. We're going to get into all that. But first, you lay down on right on top of where the crash where the crash happened and the beings apparently lied down, you know, and your hair has been growing ever since. Yeah. Yeah. Everything tastes a little funny. Exactly. Yeah. So there is a rich history here. And, you know, I'm I'm I'm going to ask you guys to take me through this book step by step so that we don't lose anyone in the audience, because I want them to feel what it was like to be there. So take us back to March 25th, 1948. OK, let's start. Sure. I'll start. Step in anything that I'm missing. It was about a month, month and a half before that date that. There had been sightings up near Los Alamos, as well as Cuba, New Mexico, that whole area of structured craft and green orbs and the people of Cuba, New Mexico, which is a hundred miles. Yeah, probably a hundred miles from Aztec south and almost directly south of Los Alamos. This is where they're seeing all the craft and the people are just up. They're so upset. They can't understand what this is. They go to the police. They go to the mayor. They hold county or city meetings. And finally, they bring in a scientist and it's Dr. Lincoln LaPaz. And LaPaz takes a look around and goes out in the desert and he comes back and brings meteorites and says, these are my this is what you're seeing. It's really no big deal. And they were outraged. The people were just outraged. And they said, we're seeing something structured. It has, you know, different they described it. It's just and then green orbs and turning. And there's just no way that that was going to be meteors, meteors. So the this continued on. They kept seeing the structured craft. And there are two police officers, Andy Andrews and Manuel Sandoval. And they covered different parts of the state. And they would meet for pie. And coffee. In Cuba. In Cuba. From time to time before they went on duty. And they would sit and visit about what was occurring. Well, lately, a lot of their conversations had been about what had happened with the meeting and the structured craft that were being seen. And so Manuel Sandoval says, I've had it. If I see another one, I'm going to just follow it. Well, be careful what you ask for. Because. That evening, as he's driving, he actually sees a craft. There was something different about this craft. And it was that it was fluttering. And his description was like a leaf. Like this. And so he began following it. And the roads were different than they are. You know, back in 48, there were different roads than we have currently. But he started following it up to Blanco area. And then up to Aztec, New Mexico. Again, that's going to be northwest. So he goes through the night following. And there's times he would lose it because there are switchbacks. As you know, driving that area, there are switchbacks. And there's cliffs and bluffs and things that can impair your view. But it was only for short periods of time that he would lose it. And he did lose it for a short time. About this time, it's 5 o'clock in the morning. And Valentino. Valentino Archuleta, who was a veteran, a decorated, highly decorated veteran, is going out after he kisses his wife for breakfast. He walks out about 5 o'clock in the morning with his dog, goes out to the goat pen, and he looks up because he hears this loud boom. And here is this massive craft. And as he watches from his view, it continues going forward. And here he sees. It hit and actually bumped into some rocks. A mesa. Yeah. I was going to say mesa, but I don't know if everybody knows. But a mesa about 300 foot high. Bumps into it, and there's sparks that come off of it. And it continues on. Well, with not having a lot of phones at that time, and he certainly didn't have a phone, he walked the mile. To report it and use the phone at the training post. And he calls Kirtland Air Force Base in Albuquerque and reports this. Now, if I may, I think it's important to establish Valentino Archuleta and kind of who he is briefly, at least, for people. Because, you know, people might be out there thinking, why would I take a farmer's word on that? Like, what is. Maybe this guy's got something to gain from it. But, you know, we went out there and we met with. With his granddaughter. We saw the ranch. We saw the bluff that it hit up on the mesa. And hearing her describe her grandfather and what he'd been through, which you guys also covered in this book, which is the fact that he'd been at the, like, the death march in the Philippines. The Bataan death march. You know, he weighed 80-some pounds when he came back. And just the atrocities that he had lived through brought him to that. To that point where, you know, I dare anyone to go up to this man after living through the most horrendous conditions one can think of and call him a liar. Right. It's unheard of and it's abhorrent. I don't think that anyone alive would have the guts to go up to a man like that and say you're lying. And so, you know, what does he have to gain? Nothing. From that. And did he say it was a UFO? Or did he say, hey, there's. There's a giant thing that just hit the. You know, he's not an alien guy. He's not. Right, right. You know, there's a simplicity to him, I think. But at the same. And the simplicity is actually his strength. You know, yes, currently he was a farmer rancher. But he had so much character. And the way. And I'm going to step back just for a moment. During the Bataan death march, during the time that he was on the warships, it was just the minds he was on underground for a great length of time. They had no food. They ate rats. They ate anything they could. I mean, it was absolutely far more thankfully than any of us ever have to think about. And yet he always cared for his fellow prisoners' lives. It's just writing about it, learning about it, and studying about it. He was a tremendous man and came back through all of that. And was a good and prosperous, I guess, citizen. I mean, he just cared for other people. He had a wonderful sense of humor, loving. And so, as you said, I don't know. That, to me, is so important to know about that person. I think it is important to establish, you know, someone's character, especially in regards to these outrageous claims. You know, you think, why would someone just. And you're stopped. You're stopped at a dead end with this guy. This is not a guy you can easily push aside by saying, oh, he got a little crazy or he got a little loopy or whatever. He was also acknowledged by the president, right? He was given. A couple different presidents. A couple different presidents, right? So this is a very credible, upstanding citizen who's been through literal hell, who is now telling you, walking a mile to tell you, hey, I just saw something really big crash into that, you know, and it's headed that way. That's right. to the next witness. reason they make skiffs. 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Now, Officer Manuel Sandoval is now arriving towards, through the windy roads, towards where the actual, we know as the crash site today. And he comes upon some oil field workers. And they're standing there. And earlier that day, there had been reports of a fire. And so there were a variety of oil field workers out. Doug Nolan and Ken Farley. And there was a whole group of them. There was a whole group of them. And then Doug Nolan and Ken Farley, no, Doug Nolan and Bill Ferguson pull up. And they see, again, their other oil field workers. And what's going on? You know, where's the fire? What's happening? And they said, well, there had been one a little ways away, but it's over. But wait till you see what's on the mesa. Keep in mind, a fire and drip tanks don't go hand in hand in the oil field. We have pictures of the drip tanks in the book. They're no longer there. But some were water vessels. They just had water. And others had, were full of propane and benzene and all the things that when you're trying to get natural gas out of the ground, you don't really want to come across. That's right. There's a commercial value to it. And if that fire spread and got down to the tanks. Big problem. Big problem. But the fire, they're well separated and virtually almost out by the time they got there. It wasn't, no, thank you. It wasn't an issue. So they said, but wait till you get up onto the mesa. And so they all hiked up. But it's, as you know, a bit of a hike. Yeah. Got up on the mesa. And a mesa, for anyone that's not familiar, is a Spanish word for table. So it's a mountain or a hill that's flat on the top. And here lays a hundred foot craft. All intact. And already up there, there were ranchers and other people from the area that were standing around. And I'm sure they were shocked what many of them thought that it might be something from the United States military. Sure. Yeah. It was that. It was an exciting time. It was. In aerospace and aviation. Yep. I mean, yeah. Exactly. So they, two of the oil field workers start climbing around on it. And the older folks in the group got upset, you know, get down from there. What are you doing? And one of them ran down and grabbed a long pole, like a broomstick pole, only thinner. They found one hole in the whole craft, and it was about the size of a quarter. So the broomstick, or this pole, would fit right in there. So they took it in. I always wonder, whatever ever caused them to do this. I would never think to do that. But they started jamming it around in there, and it hit a lever, and it opened up. Opened up a staircase that dropped down. Yep. Staircase dropped down. So two of them went in and started crawling around and looking, and they saw two bodies. Two bodies just slumped over in two seats. About that time is when the military started to show up. And this is Bill and Doug that went in? No. No. No, Bill and Doug didn't go in. Bill and Doug went on the craft. Right. Right. Right. But they didn't go into the craft. No. Right. Because you'd interviewed Doug as well, right? Yes. In 2003? Right before he died. You did, yeah, right before he died. I mean, what was that like? Well, he was recovering from. Stroke, right? Stroke number three or four. So it was very challenging for him to even talk. The brain was sharp, but the body was worn out. Yeah, he told me he immediately thought it was one of ours. He said this wasn't anything short of a rescue mission because we figured there were people inside. Folks, what you're going to hear is the only recording. This is a recorded witness testimony of a firsthand witness to the Aztec UFO crash. This was given to me by Scott Ramsey and is an exclusive to Area 52. The interview is taken by John Lear and features Doug Noland recounting exactly what he saw when he arrived at the crash site. Have a listen. They wouldn't let us take any pictures. And the cameras that we had, they did have pictures in them. It was confiscated all over. That's what had us all so goddamn mad. As part of us had the cameras, you know, we just happened to have them in the car. Yeah. And they wouldn't let us take any pictures. And the pictures that were taken, they went through our car, our fine-tooth comb, to see if we had anything. No. They would get the one that come out of there when the door come down. All right, let's say this is the door. And they came down and sit down out here. And the window was sitting right over here in this part. There's a hole in there. And you could see in there that if that folded down there, which I know it did, that guy that was sitting in there was sitting right in there. Right. If the door was down, which it wouldn't let us. But you could have seen him sitting in there. And the other guy was sitting over here. And then there was two on the other side. So where do you think the other eight people might have been? They said there was a blow down here. Down here? They said there was another floor in there. Oh. That just stuck up there about six, eight feet from the flat plane in the center of it. Here. Wasn't very high. So you weren't there when they stuck the pole in and opened the door? Yeah. Oh, you weren't? But I never did see them gonna get any bigger hole in there. I wasn't there when they stuck that pole in there. 'Cause that's when they had us outside. They wanted that fenced off, barricaded up. I think Reed was there 'cause he had some of those on his truck. Either that or they went back down and got some from him. The only ones that they kept, well they kept him there because he had his welding truck. That's right. And he had his generator on there. 'Cause he was gonna tell us if they ever got in it. And they got in it. And then, and then did he tell you? Yeah. Yeah, he told us if the door just folded right down. He said it just folded right down from the top and just folded right on down there. So when he put the torch to this window, did it, did it make any. It didn't give nothing. Nothing. Wouldn't even get hot. That's what we couldn't figure out. 'Cause Reed said hit it when he thought he had it hot. And I hit it and it just bounced that hammer back at you. But then he took the torch off of it Tried to see if it was hot It shipped and he warmed About the time that the staircase came down The helicopter arrived at the scene Now this is coming from his memory years later He was 19 at the time He had never seen a helicopter before They had just been brought into the army inventory In January and February of 48 So nobody had, almost no one had Yeah, that was also almost alien Yeah, and you know, Doug says here I am Turns out I'm sitting next to a UFO And I'm watching another object I had no clue what it is And we figured out later One of the older guys said it's a helicopter And they were like the ones In the opening scene of MASH Yeah The big Lexan bubble Two people You could probably get a third Because the way they showed it MASH, a wounded person on the outside pontoon It circled maybe two times And then took off to the northeast Well, Mike Price and I did a lot of research On that helicopter They had a range at that altitude Of about 160 to 165 miles So it came locally Ha ha Ha ha That would be a stretch To make it to Albuquerque So, Los Alamos? Colorado? Colorado Colorado And maybe into Air Force Base At Colorado Springs We don't know Maybe it stopped somewhere And took on fuel Yeah, it wouldn't have been at Los Alamos There's no reason for No, not that kind of military Not that kind of, yeah, not exactly But that was always And other people agreed with him Ken Farley said Yeah, I was there when the helicopter went over So, sort of A busy day for everybody's brain And they were all young guys Yeah, yeah Ferguson was the oldest senior And I think he was early 30s I see Yeah, they kind of referred to him as well The older guy The older guy And then Mr. and Mrs. Knight Who were ranchers They showed up And they were old people They were probably in their 40s or 50s Their son went on to work as a Park ranger service Department of Wildlife I don't know One of those positions Yeah, yeah I've always tried to find him To sit down and have a talk with him I mean, that must have been Just the most surreal experience Especially, I mean Because you spoke to Doug and Ken as well, right? Oh, yeah He was also there I actually met Ken We had one at the lunch Right And these are people who physically Saw the craft with their eyeballs These are people who Touched it Who touched the craft Who touched the UFO And who described it in the same manner Giant disc Kind of lopsided Lenticular Lenticular Not damaged whatsoever Pristine Yeah, these are people Who, you know Perhaps a lot of the people Researching this case Don't even bother to look into Right, right We'll get to that But usually you stop at the Silas Newtons and the Leo Gebauer And you kind of like Throw the story out You read the, you know The debunk by, you know Or the alleged Supposed debunk By the GP What's his name? J.P. Kahn J.P. Kahn Yeah Interesting name Isn't it? Isn't it? Well, that one chapter In our first and second book Did Kahn Kahn the Kahn Yeah, exactly And so, you know A lot of people read that And they throw the whole thing But then you're like, wait Before we even get there We're already at Half a dozen witnesses Right So what's next? We go into the craft They see two bodies slumped over What do they do? The military arrives Almost right at the same time Yeah And they're like And debriefs all of them So we're at 10.30 11 o'clock in the morning now Yeah There are other witnesses That are there There's a county commissioner I guess that's what we want to call it Another sheriff That are also there So there's other people There's a traveling gentleman That came by He was on his way He was like on reserve Or he was, I guess Out of the military Temporarily And he was just taking a vacation And How do we have their testimony? How do we know that these people were around? Is that from Secondhand Secondhand Okay But So there's a variety of people Oddly enough When you go to interview Or you try to Confirm your facts It's easy to ask a question And just assume that that's the way it is And instead What we've tried to do And Scott's done an excellent job I hope I always try to That we try to come at it From different angles And not trip anybody up But you have to qualify things You know, just can't assume That that's the way it is So Without having any of these folks together We ask questions And Scott did a great job Asking questions about You already know the answers to Other people that we already know the answers to Or think we do Doing some detective work out there That's right Who Who else was there What did they look like Did you know them And some of the people were not known to the other people Right They were visiting Or they were from another portion And so And descriptions on the craft And different things that they saw All those things It's not just asking a person a question And certainly it's not leading them in the questions By giving them a little And what about this And what about this Instead it's asking And just listening More than anything Let them talk And let them talk And let them share their story And It's amazing how many times you see it dovetail That things Have there ever been points where you're like This person is like Clearly lying They weren't there Have you ever encountered people That would just actively lie about No We tried to feed off What this witness told us And you need to talk to so and so I see right there So you're just connecting the dots Right Yeah One of the Interesting people that showed up Was a preacher Catholic preacher By the name of Brown Yeah Solon Brown Solon Brown He showed up He had passed away Before we could get to him But we interviewed his son His son Yeah And He's one of the more compelling Oh my gosh Your heart Witnesses Because of Not only the nature of what he did But the nature of what he did And the nature of why he was needed Right Yeah Yeah And you actually See a real person With real emotions Do you want Well Well so The military arrives They kind of take control They're debriefing everyone Now when we say debriefing They're telling them You tell anyone And we'll kill you You can't You can't talk about this It is completely This is American national security That's what they're told That's what Doug Nolan Shared his story As well They were literally told To shut it Talk or die But I think Even more important than that And something that we Repeatedly found was They were threatened themselves But their families Were threatened Right Financially Harm Everything And that was a time Of loyalty Great loyalty Yeah And And that I think Grabbed people more Than even being Threatened themselves Yeah I really do Yeah I think so too And I think you know Back then We're saying Still We're right after the war Yeah This is still fresh We're not even in the 50s yet And so the Heightened sense of Patriotism Is You know Rampant And I think people You know It was the one Point in time Where you would be Declared a hero For keeping a secret Oh absolutely Yeah And so you know If you were If you were asking people Why would these people Keep it a secret Well because That was their duty That's right They were told by Soldiers And you mentioned this In your book too Like They were well respected Back then Sure Nowadays people have Their own opinions And they're entitled to those Because of the nature Of information And everything else But back then You know You'd see a soldier And you'd tell your kid And you'd point And you'd say That's a hero right there You know That's the way it was And so when a soldier Told you Hey you can't talk about this I was still that way When I was growing up Yeah Yeah And they would tell you Hey don't talk about that You would respect that Right So this is a different time It was a totally Mindset The mindset was very Very different When I Interviewed Doug Doug Kind of laid out Who was there Who he knew And Doug lived Over the border When we went up To Durango To fly out We made a right To go to the Durango Airport If we had made a left That would take us Into Mancos Colorado That's how the locals Say it Mancos It's Mancos And Preacher Brown Had been sent up there To reopen The Mancos Baptist Church And we went up And interviewed Back in 2010 The new preacher Preacher Gregory And he knew A little bit But not what we knew So we kind of educated him Turned out he had retired From Air Force Intelligence Talk about Like really And you end up here He was a really Really nice guy Very helpful The interesting thing That Doug did And Doug did know everybody. There were a lot of oilfield workers out there then as as there are today. But he knew the Knights, and he said now there were two, maybe three guys on the western edge of the Mesa that we didn't know, and I don't think they didn't really intermingle with us. Years later, when Randy Barnes gave me contact information on Ken, I flew out to Arizona and sat with Ken, and Randy came with me. We took him to lunch. Sadly, he was dying at that time, too. He was on oxygen, so we had to be very careful where we went, not the smoking area of the restaurant. Sure. And Ken knew he was dying, and he told us. He said, you know, matter of fact, that was why we kind of dropped everything and got out there. He said, I don't know how much longer I have. And I said to Ken, can you describe the crash site? The one thing that intrigued me, he said, you know, we kind of thought it was crazy that some of the guys were climbing on that thing. We didn't know what it was. And he said, so we walked out on the western edge of that Mesa, and it clicked. He was the guy. I said, who all was there? He said, just me and another guy. We were on our way to San Diego. Well, then the other thing that amazed me, Ken Farley talked about three gold rim lines around the rim of the craft. Like a ring. And that's not something that was ever brought. We didn't discuss that at all. Yeah, we kept that quiet for about 15 years. Yeah. Because that's something you'd heard from the other witnesses as well. But you just, you're like, hey, we got to keep some cards close to our chest. It was just a check. Yeah. And it's a smart move. And so he brought that information forward. And then I told, I asked Ken to describe the craft. And it was, you know, lenticular in shape, very thin cross section, domed on the top, domed on the bottom. We should have brought the model that we had made. That's true. You did a model. Yeah. It was larger on the top. And on the bottom. And on the bottom, but 13 feet high. 18 from top to bottom, the best we can tell. Right. And three, actual three floors. Right. So when they went into the craft and saw the two bodies, there were 14 other bodies elsewhere. Yeah. But Ken Farley brought it up too. He said, as we were being told to get off the Mesa, he said, I noticed it was almost like gold rings around the craft. Right at the center of it. And that struck me as odd. You know, I'm hearing this from two guys that didn't know each other. Yeah. Ken Farley and his buddy, they were traveling to, well, they stopped in San Diego to see his aunt. And then they were going on to San Diego to see some old Navy buddies. So it wasn't like they went and had a beer at night. They were on the same bowling league. Yeah. They're like, we're going to give this researcher a run for his money here. Yeah. Yeah. Let's give him a run. It was a hard time. Once we started having that happen, we said, we got to keep digging. And so we dug. Okay. So the army comes, debriefs them, tells them not to talk. Now, there is a minister that's coming from Aztec and he's establishing a circuit minister. Had several, several, yeah, had several locations, but his home was in Mingus, Colorado. And, um, as he's driving past the road and you've seen the road, it's an unimproved road. It's not much different today. Yeah. Very rugged. Um, better to have a pickup, pickup or four wheel drive. Um, if it rains, you can have some problems. Sometimes it's real washboardy. He passes by and he looks and he sees a lot of activity going out there and he just decides he's going to go out, see if he can help. So he drives out. And as he pulls up the military's in place and he says, is there anything I can do to help? You know, thinking there was maybe an oil field accident or crash or something, you know, and they said, yes, follow us. So again, they make the big hike all the way up there. It's a rigorous, you know, it's invigorating to get up there. And, um, as he comes over, he sees 16 bodies laying there. And he looks at them and they're not human. And they said, could you say, um, last rites? And he said, I'm not a Catholic priest. I'm, I'm, you know, Baptist, but I could pray for them. So I oftentimes think of what this experience must have done for him as he gets down by each one of the 16 bodies and, and says prayers for them. Well, the bodies were between three and four. Four foot in size. They had perfect teeth. Their skin was burned. They had like a light blue, kind of almost like, almost like this color outfit on. What color was their skin if it wasn't charred? Do you, do you know, was that ever divulged? I never heard. They were, they were. Pretty badly burnt. Pretty badly as those, they figure maybe decompression. Okay. From the hole in the porthole. Okay. That's what the uniforms, there were no insignias like a higher rank or a lower rank. Very childlike features. Ears, small eyes, big eyes. Small, small like eyes. Childlike, right. Small, like a child. But, but larger heads. They weren't, well, slightly. They weren't the stereotypical. No, they weren't greys. Greys. Right. They weren't. Yeah. They were more like the, um, the ones we hear about perhaps in Roswell, the type ones that were, you know, um. Uh, the description of Roswell was they were more like oriental looking, um, and, um, kind of like almond shaped eyes and like they, they, you know, that's those type of features, but they weren't your typical. Hollywood greys. Hollywood greys. Right. Okay. And teeth is another thing. Like that's a whole other detail. So he frays over each one of them and then just heads down to his car and starts to drive home. Well. Going to Vegas takes a bit of time. It's in Colorado. Um, probably took him. Three by minutes. I think so. Well, that's a long time to be alone by yourself after. After something like that. That's 45 minutes on today's road. And like you're, you know, you're a Baptist priest. Exactly. Um, you know, the devil, the, you know, what is this? Is this, are these demonic? Are these, I mean, I'm sure those thoughts crossed his mind a hundred times in that car ride by himself. Yeah. Thinking about what he just saw and what that means for his faith. What that means for him. So he gets to back to his church and he calls several of his parishioners that are friends and he has him come in and, and one of them was a child, happened to be a child. But, you know, one of the parents brought a child and he starts to describe, he says, I have to tell you what happened today, what I experienced today. And he shares it. And one of the gentlemen that were in the group. Cleared his throat like, like that. And the minister started crying and he said, you don't believe me, do you? You don't believe me. He was so upset. And that had nothing to do with it. He was just over the edge at that time. I mean, he was upset. And, and they asked him, why are you crying? You know, has it shaken your faith? Just as you just asked, has it shaken your faith or? And he said, no, it was just so. Traumatic being by these little bodies, each one of them dead. And they were like children, you know, I mean, they probably didn't look like any of his kids, but you know what I mean? They, they, but living at one point, nonetheless, yeah, that's true. And that was pretty much the end of, of his, but he was never debriefed, you know, according to testimony and everything else. So he was, he didn't even know he shouldn't talk about this. That's something interesting when you say that. That's the way that I've. Always felt is that he just wandered off to his car and. Yeah. They all just kind of, who's going to believe the priest, I guess, or like. Or even just forgot about him. My thought is there's so much going on. All the kerfuffle happening. Yeah. Yeah. If you're curious about the shirt that I'm wearing in this episode, you can check it out at area52.shop. In fact, the entire Invisible College collection is on sale 20% off until next Friday. So only seven days. If you have left, check it out at area52.shop. So we found some new information and, and it was that earlier that day that the, that there was a family up in Durango and a mother, father and two kids, and they were coming back on the back road. Now the military has all of the roads portioned off so you can't get in and securing them. And this family traveling down back to their home in Blankenship. Yeah. Passed right by where currently, if you were to go, there is the parking lot. Now there wasn't a parking lot at the time, but it's right up next to the road. Yeah. Right up. I mean, within, you know, five, 10 feet. I mean, that's how close it is. And as they pull by on their merry way, they see bodies laying there. They didn't say what it was. They don't know what it was, but it was wrapped in. I don't even know. Did they not see the crafts before then? Yes, and I missed that, and I'm sorry. On their way to that, they saw two crafts, huge crafts. Now, again, this is a family driving home. They have nothing to gain from this. Two massive crafts out in a field, and they were going down and they were coming up. And as they came close to the crafts, they lost their power in their vehicle. And there was another vehicle there, too, that was passing. That was crossing them, and it also happened to them. It also happened to them. So now they go past, they see the bodies, and then they continue on, just keep on going. And you imagine the conversation in that car, I cannot even imagine. So they're going cross-country over to Blanco, and they see eight more. Giant disks. Giant disks. Almost like a search and rescue mission. And the same very thing happens, that they lose power. They lose power in their vehicle. Power comes back on after the disks leave, and they get to Blanco, and that's the end of the story. Now, this family ends up coming forward because they heard about the story. Now, to them, this was a completely disparate and sort of different encounter. They never thought, oh, this was a UFO crash. They never saw a crashed UFO. No, they had no knowledge of that. So to them, they just had this strange story of one night where they're driving these back roads. Because, again, they're taking the back. They're taking the back roads, so they're not at those blocked entrances to the site. They're coming from a different direction. That's exactly right. That was kind of open. There's all sorts of roads out there. I'm sure it was blocked right after that. It was probably blocked right after that. Can you imagine expression on your face? Yeah, and seeing these things, your car shutting down, getting your car started, looking, seeing these bodies. Like, you don't even know how that's connected. Yeah, they were in, like, military body bags. Yeah, and then years later, they hear about the same area. Yeah, having had a crash, and then that's where it clicks for them to, like, wait, is that what we saw? Yeah, and they actually kept that story quiet for a very, very long time. We did not actually get that information until the last couple years. Like, 2015, wasn't it? Yeah, it was later than that. It was after than that. Later than that. Yeah, but, yeah, and they're a longstanding family, lived there for a long time. How many people in the car? Four people. Yeah. Two parents, two children? Mm-hmm. And you spoke to all of them? No, to the granddaughters. To the granddaughters, right, because they would have been long gone by now, I think, right? Yeah. Wow. That's another one of those, hey, here's another witness, here's another one. That's right, that's right. The two girls on a horse was an interesting story. Yeah, it's more witnesses. Well, yeah, and she contacted me. I can't use her name, like we can't with this family. Mm-hmm. Is that on their request? Yes. And why, what is the concern there, do you mind me asking? Steinman had mentioned the family in his book without their permission. I see. And they got very upset. Yeah, they wanted me in unnecessary heat. Yeah, and there's a backstory to that I'll tell you when we're having dinner tonight. Gotcha. Uh-huh. But if I keep your thought for one second. There still is a tremendous stigma, and there's a stigma throughout the world. Yeah. And even though people are more enlightened, and children certainly nowadays, it's not a big deal to them, there still is a stigma. And take it back to during that time. Even more so. Where again, even more so, and that the government used embarrassing people and humiliating them. So is this more of a fear of like public? Sort of ridicule, or do you think that they were afraid of, you know, some type of encounter that they would have with the government or with some faction of the government that didn't want them talking? I think that from back in 48, when people told their children and the generations going on over and over and over, do not do this. I think that just stuck. Just stuck. I really do. And I think that. And sometimes you don't even know the reason why anymore. You just stick with it. And that's my theory. Yeah. I don't know that to be true. But it is kind of wild for someone to reach out to you with such a story and then be like, but I don't want to. Like, what is even the point of that? Yeah, I know. Do you know what I mean? Like, you're like, for me, that like raises my conviction. This isn't someone trying to sell something or someone is like, hey, get my T-shirt from, you know, when I saw aliens at Aztec. They're like, here's a story. Do you want with it? Just don't mention my name. You know, and that to me stands out. But she contacted me. Of course, she's much older now. And part of the family still lives in the Cedar Hill, Aztec area. And she's telling me this story. We went horseback riding. And if you go out toward the crash site. Well, actually, if you go down the hill from the crash site. Right. There's a spring down there. I used to fill my canteens down there. And it's a good place to water your horse. That was her perception. We're going to go out and go as far as the Arkansas loop, get water for the horses and come back. It's a typical run for them. I asked her, how do you know this many years later, the date? She said, that's simple. It was my birthday, March 25th, 19. March 25th, which was a Thursday. And she instantly had that in recall and said that that's my birthday. And the gift was a new horse. And her other horse was the one the other girl was riding, driving. So I kind of just sat back and laughed. And Stein, like I said, had interviewed the family. So what did she see him? Well, they get out just about a third of the way, not quite half. And two young guys in khakis and a Jeep. No military uniform, but khaki shirt, khaki pants. And she said, you know, I think she was nine at the time. She said, they were really handsome guys. Older guys, too. And I said, how old? She goes, oh, they had to be in their 30s, you know. God forbid, you know, they knew our age. And they were very kind to her and said, oh, honey, there's been an accident up here. It's really not safe for you to go up. And he said, there's no other place to water your horse from what I understand. So best you probably turn around. And they were kind of resisting. But she said, we were kind of resisting and flirting at the same time, these young girls. And they finally said, OK. And even when she and I were talking, a couple of things bothered her. Why are guys in khakis and a Jeep? Why are guys in a Jeep with no other military uniforms? And how did he know there was no other watering hole between here and there? So he was local, you know, or from the area. Makes sense. Yeah. I didn't even know there was no other watering hole, as she was telling me this years ago. But again, when I take her story and I take what Steinman had, it all makes sense. And if it hadn't have been for her birthday, she would never. Isn't that amazing? She would have just been like. One day. Exactly. I don't even remember what year it was. Exactly. And now she knows the exact day. Yeah. Wow. To get a horse, that's going to be a landmark experience for you. And then finally, we have the boys on the bikes. Yeah. Yeah. There's a group of boys that are in town and near the cemetery. They live near the cemetery, neighborhood boys in Aztec. And they are riding their bikes. And they're eight and nine years old and just goofing around playing. And they see a lot of activity. Again, this is a small town. And activity going in and out in town. So they decide to ride their bicycles out and follow the vehicles. And so as they get out there, they travel all the way out and are stopped by the military. And turned around and said, no, you're not able to come here. So, you know, each one of these things, I think, any one of them doesn't. Give you the whole case. But it tells you the experience of multiple people on that day. There also was the county commissioner and the sheriff. That's right. And do you want to do that or should I? Yeah. His ranch hand contacted us, Suzanne and I. And he was, had worked for Benson Leaper for many years. So close to the family that after he died, which was not that long after we interviewed him, he was buried in the family Benson Leaper plot, the Leaper plot. So he had to be pretty tight with the family to do that. And he tells a story that Benson left early one morning. He was the county commissioner. And was picked up by one or maybe two other people at the house and taken out, which turned out to be Harkin. the abandoned road, came back mid-morning And his wife, Ruby, said, my God, what happened? Where have you been? And I think he said to her, there's been an accident. I've got to run. I'll be back later. He came back sweaty and wrinkled and all, just a mess. And according to Mark, he told Ruby, where I have been, what I was doing will never be brought up again, never asked again. Which was out of his character. And basically then went in and cleaned up and took a nap, went back to bed. So, you know, Mark said, this is way before my time, but this is what Ruby's telling me. Benson had already passed on. And then right after that, he died. Then right after that, Ruby died. But I think Ruby died first. Benson on that day was very standoffish, slept very standoffish. For the next two weeks, he was just very quiet. Quiet and just very standoffish. And it wasn't until he was on his deathbed that he shared the story with Ruby. Even that. Yeah. The whole story. The whole story. The whole story of what he saw and all that time. Let me give you a little background on Benson and his wife. The Leeper family is extremely well respected in San Juan County. He arrived there. According to his friends, basically they stopped there because they had walked from Oklahoma over a period of God knows how many days. Months. Months. Yeah. And they had no money. And he had worn the soles of his shoes. Wow. Out. Out. So it was sort of like, Ruby, honey. This is it. This is as far as we go. And he went on, like so many of those guys, to be a very successful. And I guess, you know, fell in love with Aztec in the area and called it home. But, you know, he was kind of another Valentin Archuleta. That tough guy. I never got to meet him. Sorry, I didn't. I never got to meet Ruby. We interviewed Ruby's best friend prior to that, years prior to that. And she was standoffish and said, Ruby doesn't talk about any of that. Yeah. Wow. So, you know, I respect that. But these guys were rough and tough. I mean, to live out there, even back then, life was tough. Even today. Even today. Yeah. I mean, you know. If you walked from Oklahoma, you better consider yourself tough. Yeah. You know, I mean, that's. That's a, I mean, that's a trial in itself. That's, you know, that's an Iliad. But these, again, a good family. Very well respected. Very well respected. Really contributed to the community and. Just, just more credible people coming forward saying, you know, there was something, there was something going on there. And so after we have all these witnesses, everything sort of, you know, they get the place completely guarded off. They get the place shut off from anyone. But now there's a problem. And the problem is they're sitting on this mesa and they need to get. They need to get this giant craft out of here. Great. And, you know, you walk up there and your feet sinks in the sand. Yeah. There's no. Very silty. You can't get footing. I'm looking at that mesa right there with all the silt that's washed down. That's a lot like the crash site. Yeah, that's right. You can't count on the ground. No, you can't. And so if you're, you know, if you're going to pull one of these things, we're talking a craft that's a hundred foot in diameter. Weighs, I don't know how many tons. And if you're thinking, you know, if you're going to pull one of these things, you're going to pull one of these things. If you're thinking of even taking that craft and moving and sorry, moving it, you would need to have some type of winch. Some type of winching system, some type of crane. But anything moving that needs to have some type of footing. Right. So before we get to that, though, something happens to the craft that I find highly unusual. That is so strange that you never hear about anywhere else. The craft comes apart. Right. Oh, yes. I knew they weren't going to be able to move. They weren't going to be able to move it in one solid piece. You know, like I said, there's cliffs and bluffs on parts of the road. There's just no way. And with pip pins, they were stuck together, the four pieces, one in the center and then three pieces around. Frank Scully, I somehow missed that reading Frank Scully's book and went back and actually a friend of ours said, well, you know, Scully talks about it. And I reread it and we use pip pins today and a lot of things. Pip pins hold the wing of an Indy car on the front nose of an Indy car. Bigger pip pins we use in agriculture. We have a farm. We use pip pins all the time on our implements, our tillers, our bush hogs, whatever we're using. And apparently it was a type of pip pin where you push down the center. It's a button and the ball retracts. You can stick it through and release it. And now you got a very tight tolerance. So we looked at Scully's chapter again, his part of moving the craft. And that's the name of our chapter. And I needed an expert on moving large objects. So I couldn't find his phone number, but I sent a letter to Bill Metzger from Confluence, Pennsylvania. And I knew he was the best in the world because he worked for my dad. That's what my dad did. My dad would move anything. If you told him to move that mace, he'd figure out eventually how to. And Bill was what they called an expediter. He would ride with the load from point A to point B. It'd be a huge turbine coming out of GE in Schenectady going to St. Louis. And it went down to Florida, over to Mississippi, over to Kansas. And they had to use whatever means they had that had the high, wide clearance to get the train or truck through. Right. Mostly train. Yeah. So I wrote a letter to Bill. He responded immediately and said, yeah, this sounds fun. But I don't believe in flying saucers. I said, better yet. You're the guy for us. I said, that's better yet that you don't. So long story short, Suzanne and I flew out. He and his wife, Pam, took Amtrak out there because Bill loves trains. And we worked for a week moving the craft in from the crash site down to where we knew it could safely get to Los Alamos. Wait. So this is crazy. You guys mapped out where you would have taken it, what vehicle would have taken it. Right. And where it allegedly ended up at, which is 90 miles away at Los Alamos. Right. What the roads were not currently. But then what the roads were back then. What bridges were there at the time. What bridges weren't there at the time. Takes a lot of history. That would have been treacherous. And that was, I think, that was one of the debunks that people would cite often was, there's no way that a vehicle of that size with that load could drive up to Los Alamos. It's a heck of a drive up there. And you guys, how much did you spend on this excursion? You don't want to know. I do want to know, actually. I will just tell you this. That, you know, for the first 18 years of our marriage, every day we worked on this project. Every single day. Wow. We had our jobs. And then at the end of the day, we would come together. What did we each find and debrief each other? It was a really expensive week. Then Scott comes to me. How expensive? Well, that's where I'm going. Scott comes to me and he says, you know what we need to do? The debunkers are concerned that we wouldn't be able to move this. Yeah, they were. And he said, so what we need to do is go. Go back and reenact this. And I just looked at him. And honestly, in my mind, I'm thinking of how are we going to pay the bills this month? And we're going to worry about this. We're going to think about how to move this. And we sat there and that's kind of what I said. I didn't say that out loud, but we just kept eating supper. And I was going, oh, my God. Oh, my God. And finally, I looked at him and I said, you've been right. Let's do it. And he was a thousand percent right. It did cost us money. Um, the time alone. How much did it cost you? A hard cash? Fifteen grand. Fifteen grand. Something like that. One week. Crazy little hobby. Yeah. Yeah. She was staying racing. But here's the deal. You know, you can't do a project like this halfway. You either, either go all the way or you don't. And most people do. You're right. You're right. But so many of the debunkers, that's where, like you said, they talk about, about, uh, the hoax and things like this, but they never see the full picture. They go this far. Well, you don't know how the movie ends. If you don't go to watch the whole movie, you don't know, there's always a twist in things. And, and so to commit to that, and we had committed to this point and, and it was the right thing. It was, but I, I can tell you personally, I would have never come up with that. I would have never done it on my own, but he, you can thank him very much for that. And again, it was, it was amazing experience. -Bill was the man for the job. -Yeah, absolutely. He, again, he had no interest in the topic and. That's a very important thing, too, is I think what's interesting about you guys researching this stuff as well is that it's something you've repeated to me during, you know, the course of how long we've known each other. That, like, you're very happy in if someone showed you some cold, hard proof saying, no, none of this actually happened. This is all made up. Here you go. So, like, that from day one has been your thing. You're very careful about who you talk to, which conferences you go to. That's right. You don't want to be looped into the UFO people or the alien people or all this stuff you don't know about. Right. You're like, all we know is this and this and this, and we're going to try and prove or disprove what happened. And you spend your own money, your own energy, your own time, your lives, essentially, a big part of it. Just trying to figure it out. And, Chris, we're really not interested in convincing anybody of anything. It's a history book. I mean, it is. It's history. And, you know, I guess we've always looked at this. It seems like a silly amount of money over the years that we've spent, and it is. But it's an important part of history. And we'll be gone, but that information needs to get out. And somebody else can build on it. Sure. But if it would have stopped work. If it weren't for it was, that would have been it. So, okay, you rent this giant, this winch, this truck, this planet. No, no, no. What we did, the dragon wagon is what moved the craft probably. Right. Okay, the dragon wagon was used in European theater. It was a tank transport. You could transport anything, but mostly after, like, Battle of the Bulge, they used them to get the tanks out of there. You figured that's what would have been used. Because they were stored down at Holloman Air Force Base after the war, eventually auctioned off. And most of the people that bought them were loggers out in the Northwest. They were chain-driven, all-wheel drive. What a perfect fit. They had plenty of winches, and some of them I have pictures of that have welding equipment on there, in case they had to weld this on or weld that on. I talked to some people that own them now, and they were built in the Northwest also. I forget the company right now. They're chain-driven, which is very unique. What does that mean? Sprockets on the wheel assemblies, and a chain would drive it. Oh, wow. Yeah. Wow. It's a very unique design. I talked to a guy from World War II that said, I would dare anybody to get one stuck. I was just going to say, that's for the purpose of being un-rugged. So, essentially, they're also tanks. Kind of, yeah. There was also an armored version of it. It was the M24 and M25, and some were set up with armored plating and quote-unquote bulletproof glass back then. Then there was the un-armored version. And Bill, I got to give Bill credit. He did research. He was using one of the military museums that told him, looked down at Holloman, and that's where they were stored. We didn't use one to reenact it. We used a truck, but we made pinch-pulls. So, basically, we had a template. I'm this wide, and I'm this tall. Which would be exactly what his dad and also Bill Nutzker would do in moving massive objects. It's really no different. We went to see if it fits, what roads we can get through. If we scrape this rod on this mesa, we have to scratch our head now. Right. And we made it through. Oh, and then we had the roads were changed. The oil field companies did not want people coming in through Lybrook, which is that road still there. As a matter of fact, that's the road we had to take. 44 is now 550. Back then, 44 wasn't complete. All the way into Bloomfield. I had a debunker go after me on that. And so, it was there. I rode with my dad in a truck while it was there. It was unimproved. And I don't think you're going to want to take a dragon wagon with whatever weight that would be. Right. You would come back through Lybrook. And also, you're not going to be seen. Yeah. So, we did it several times. We did it down, and then we did it back up. In case we missed something. A couple times, it was close. Yeah. I mean, we had to use it with topo maps of 1948. They come out every two years. So, I think we were using a 47 or whatever. They didn't have one in 48 that we could find. So, you were looking at the topographical map that would have been of that area rather than like a road map or anything else. So, you're like, this is what they would have used. Right. This is the payload that they would have had. And so, you're doing exactly and retracing exactly, logically, according to an expert, what they would have done. Well, you retrack and you have to reenact. In other words, that's exactly what you're doing is reenacting as opposed to, again, we have debunkers that say, you know, oh, you just couldn't do it. Well, you have to go back to the time. And where there's a will, I mean, back then, you know what I mean? Different generation. I don't think they even thought about it. You had to do it. What else? Leave it there? I think the farther you go. Back in time, the more impressive things look to us because people were just harder and harder working as you go back. And they just, you know. Tough as nails. There was some really good, heavy, earth-moving equipment not far away. Not that the military couldn't get it there in a hurry. They were redoing the reservoir and dam in, again, the town of Mancos. And they actually had ads in the paper looking for people to bring in boarders because there were no hotels up there. Right. And we learned a lot about the big reservoir dam project. So if back then there was a pinch area, they had all the equipment to say, yeah, cut the road, move it. For people that follow the history of UFOs, there's a gentleman, Ted Phillips. He's passed now. And he and his group came out to Aztec. And, you know, Ted was sort of on the fence. You know, did it happen? Didn't it? About Aztec. About Aztec. And we had Timothy Good from England and Stan Friedman there that day. We've had a lot of big-name guys come out and look at it. And once you walk them through it, there's little doubt that it happened. Yeah. And Ted was kind of being quiet. He was walking around. We were there for probably three hours. And at the end, I said, Ted, you have something on your mind. What's up? He said, well. Take all the hard work you put in here. You've missed a lot of physical evidence. And that's what Ted was, is a physical evidence guy. That was his specialty. So he went and showed me. He said, you know, they had removed some silt from being washed down. And he went down in the soil, I don't know, six, eight inches. That's kind of where you have to go before you hit the pan, the dirt. And there were trees that had been cut off. Yeah. Like somebody took a tree. They took a chainsaw and cut it. And we call that road where the concrete slab. We nicknamed that the military road. So the concrete slab. Mm-hmm. This is really interesting. I got to see this firsthand. Is, I would say, what do you say, five by five? Meter by meter. 39 by 39. Okay. So even smaller than that. Nine inches thick. Yeah. Nine inches thick. Not an oil cap. Which is, you know, a lot of people claim it to be. All those skeptics. That's an oil cap. You took us down to oil caps. And. They're huge. They're huge. And they're nice and smooth. And, you know, this was interesting. So for those wondering what we're talking about here, to pull up some of this material or this craft or whatever, you would have had to have some solid footing for these. The outriggers. Yeah. The outriggers to come down and just sort of, you know, apply pressure so that you can pull. The arms that balance it. Exactly. Pull with the winch. Because otherwise you're just sinking. You're going to winch and you're going to sink down. Right. So they had these things. But there's no footing. So one of the reasons why this retrieval took as long as it did, which was about two weeks. Two weeks, yeah. Was because they had to wait for this slab. Apparently they had to wait for the slab to cure. Yeah. Now you go there not knowing there's a slab. You go there not knowing there's a slab. Right. Assuming that there had to be a slab in the area for this winch to hang on to. And then you find it. Well. I got to give credit where credit's due. Sure. Randy Barnes found. I got some paperwork from the military. A little bit of top off. Thank you. Okay. A little bit for you. Yep. Thank you. You're welcome. And a couple of Freedom of Information releases. I got a release from, I guess it's okay to say the Air Force. And they talk about. They gave me a name of a guy. They didn't redact it and he was on some kind of recovery. They do not mention. aztec they just mentioned a exercise and uh long story short took a year but i found him okay so after his stint in the air force he went back to where he was born and raised as a child and i call him and i said i'm doing some historical research found a document with your name on it um i'm going to be up in the boston area it's not that big of a deal to drive to where you live now uh could we meet sure love to see what you're doing so i brought all the documents and said this is the group i'm looking at and it was walker airfield which was roswell the year before and i said i'm going to be up in the boston area and i said i'm going to be up in the boston area and i said i'm going to be up in the boston area and i said i'm going to be up in the boston area and i said i'm going to be up in the boston area and i said i'm going to be up in the else something was there and there was equipment large equipment brought out there the military presence the helicopters was there to pull something out now now we come across the idea that this thing came apart in multiple pieces you know um frank scully talks about it he was approached by a bunch of scientists that also came to him that he had to sort of put together in an anonymous uh or pseudonym known as dr g um tell us about the next steps of this craft so they put it on to different flatbeds and they before that i want to just say something before that the scientists actually were at the site right yes because it was a two week long period before they sent this off yeah let's talk about some of that so it's a real busy time there they're guarding keeping people they're also shipping in scientists from all over these are world-class scientists i mean it's amazing some of the things that they accomplished and what they accomplished and we'll talk about that later after the craft but um they all had their areas of specialty and so once they figured out that the craft came apart in the four pieces then each one would go in with their area specialty and assess it yeah and um and how do we know that where does that information come from oh my gosh well scully with um the dr g's and described it we found out that uh from a gentleman that approached us who worked for scope works right um um up in ohio uh he worked out of iowa was it okay and his job was to he was at the same location where they actually had the craft and he found out there that there had been nurses at the crash site now this is after the fact but he found out that there had been and knew the nurses that had been at the crash site and whenever someone would go into the crash to the saucer um they would get nauseated and sick sometimes throw up if they were in there for very long and more than 20 minutes uh the 20 minutes they ended up capping at 15 minutes so the nurses would be there and monitor that to make sure that that they were getting in and out in that time and and uh not having any problems and then they they were from right pat that's they came back to right pat when the craft i think the center section immediately went to los alamos right because that was the power section uh-huh the three outer lantini or wings to so to speak they probably probably went to right pat that's right right airfield back then yeah um i think eventually then it was all reassembled in building 828 at right right that which later be well break patterson now today yeah we interviewed a gentleman that worked there during the reassembly and i have no reason and neither does suzanne we had conference calls with he and his wife oh yeah and i have no reason not to believe the guy what did he say he got called down he worked for a it was a division of eastman kodak the film company he was more in their instrumentation group it was a separate group from the film group he was called down because he was an expert in using this equipment matter of fact he wrote the manual for the equipment you can go on the internet and find it and you'll see that he signed off on it um he gets down there i'm not quite sure that he knew he was going to work on a flying saucer but he gets down there and lo and behold is a huge flying saucer everybody was very compartmentalized there'd be maybe three groups of people in the craft at one given time don't talk to them don't ask questions just do your job a lot like what bob lazar claims exactly yeah uh again the nurse um there was one caucasian and one african-american nurse up until seven eight years ago the uh african-american nurse was still alive living in florida we don't know what happened to the caucasian one they were all exchanging christmas cards that's they became his friends um so he is in there he never went into detail what the equipment did he's giving me the overview of what you really need to look into because i you know this is what i witnessed they had but he knew what the equipment did he did and he didn't and he's like i'm gonna give you some i'm gonna give you some breadcrumbs yeah that's pretty much huh he would talk openly about everything else uh years ago he was like i'm gonna give you some breadcrumbs yeah that's it was right after our second book came out and yeah i did a quick really quick check and you found him or he found you he found us he found us he called me and scott was traveling i was on my way to savannah georgia and i'm not an interstate guy so i'm on the back roads and i get a phone call i was shocked david had a connection and i answered he goes i just talked to your lovely wife you got a minute i'm like sure because i'm bored and he said i i think i got something that i'm going to may help your research or add to it so i got a i got a burger king bag from my to-go order and i'm taking notes on it and i'm thinking at first you don't know how to respond to that and all of a sudden like whoa okay this guy could possibly be the real deal you don't know that the first five phone calls well and even when when he spoke to me i wouldn't just do that normally i mean we're very accessible to people that want to share information yeah but you know scott's traveling his mind needs to be where where he needs to be yeah and but i spent some time with the with the gentleman and you know you kind of get a sense sure that's not 100 but you kind of get a sense and and i thought this might be worth it and so we know he lived there the years he said he did he paid real estate tax and some other little incidentals that i said okay it's a story background the story may be bogus but he really did live outside of dayton ohio okay and i did find his manual on the internet for the equipment he goes into a lot of detail he talked about fenman's uh the scientist fenman from uh los alamos he worked on the whole manhattan project and lippish who was a i don't think he was quite a paperclip scientist but after world war ii he was german and he came over to work with us um both of those names you see repeatedly in the manhattan project yeah through the manhattan project yeah lippish not so much but fenman he was he's actually one of my heroes i i would have loved there's a there's a building in los alamos named after him physics lab this guy worked with them this guy worked with them is what you're saying they worked on the craft they worked on the craft but he's aware of that he was aware of that because he was introduced i see so somehow they folded into his team um lippish was uh his expertise was tailless aircraft so there's a big chance that oppenheimer was working on you oh i'm sure i'm sure i mean if these guys are like under oppenheimer as in at some level unless oppenheimer was purposely shut out for whatever reason it would be hard to imagine well yeah i mean he he fell out of political favor for a while exactly with his communist ties that's that's what i mean yeah and but i i don't think he would have been shut out of too brilliant not to include yeah exactly yeah exactly it's like okay we don't agree with your politics but yeah we got something for you to work on overlook some things okay so he he drops these names incredible um what else does he say uh lippish worked for collins radio company out of iowa that's where i went with iowa i forgot the new york connection and they had a skunk works out by the lake and that's where lippish worked now here's collins it's known for their radio and communications yet they're building a secret aircraft out at their skunk works and so lippish is now at right pat on loan whatever and working with them and and our guy is working in the craft and they they he told suzanne and i i don't think they ever really figured out he left there in 57 i think that sounds about right so we're going back i was born in 57 sure and they would uh they got it to power up they got the craft to power up and he said when they powered it up the craft went translucent how do they power it up i don't know okay probably some high voltage i'm sure stuff that's a really interesting detail because that's a detail i brought up to bob lazar when i spoke to him as well and he was quite delighted to hear that because he goes that's exactly it because i said it wasn't completely transparent it was like more opaque opaque like you can see figures behind it yeah so almost like some type of stealthy camouflage thing but not completely transparent and when i said that to bob he just got so excited because he goes that's exactly what it was like he's like when the when the panels of the craft because he had one individual panel go opaque while he was in the craft okay um and then he just was so enamored by it he got up and started walking towards it and his partner was like yanking at him like what are you doing get it you can't do that you know get over here and then writing would appear on this wall like weird strange writing but uh he was very interested in that detail so yeah and so he saw this craft get powered up i yeah he was part of the power up and he tells you this yeah and uh he was really very cautious of what he told us how so i mean i think long pauses yeah he had to think about everything he answered how he answered and how he answered it i think that was he took his time and how he chose his words and and was there anything he told you that you can't tell me you think no no he was very careful about everything he told you yeah knowing that you're a researcher knowing that we're gonna write book three right this is book two had just come out right his wife actually still contacts me yeah really yeah she's still a lot and she and she's you know she's an interesting lady i've never actually met her but over the years she's been very supportive and and actually wanted this information to get out you think she's also kind of in the dark oh i'm sure on a lot of stuff a lot of stuff yeah but but i think she felt good about him coming and visiting with that you know probably cathartic for him to some extent as well i've you know yeah you got to get that off your chest at some point i think that's right and i can say being a wife you know you want to see your partner yeah thrive yeah and and carrying a heavy load like that is is not always easy we went back and looked at the history of building 828 and it fits perfectly with the timing it was a very large building uh i forget the gentleman in his command that authorized it to be built at right pat i think it was completed 49 or 50 and this would have been it's almost purposely yeah you would think possibly yeah possible yeah yeah why not um as we state in the book lippish was german nazi and fenneman his parents came over here from i forget what country romania wherever they were jewish and he said it was so weird because this isn't that long after world war ii he said these guys worked together famously um all about the science it's all about yeah it's all about put your differences aside yeah and fenneman was the kind of guy and this is several people have told me this when they did the first uh atomic blast down at white sands they're all in their bunkers and they all got their thick goggles on you know welding goggles basically and fenneman's laying on the hood of his ford pickup with his back against the windshield going let it rip you know and of course sadly he died young and he died of hideous cancers that he was exposed to yeah but uh very hands-on got the best view of the argument he had a heck of a view yeah talk about history probably a pretty good tan too but he uh he that's when you read about him and talk to people at los alamos about him his reputation was a hands-on guy you know let's get in there roll up our sleeves and work on it um and that's what this guy said he was known at right patterson's for doing you know can't fix it take it apart get it out here and let's test it you know did he tell you anything else about the craft or any of the history or the or the beings or anything did he know anything else about the one nurse told him that uh when somebody said where'd this come from she she said aztec and somebody in the group said aztec indians this is something and she said no no it's a town of aztec new mexico and uh that's probably what struck this guy's eye when he saw the title of your other books right right yeah so he's unless there were two or three that went down out there i think i'm i was working on the one you're talking about plus the fact that the description was so much similar yeah now this guy is anonymous i assume or is he out there he's passed away yeah but is he is he out there in terms of um his name his name no i'll tell it to you privately okay yeah um now you there was another person at right pat as well if i'm not mistaken that had been assigned to essentially um have a ledger of people that were out there working at aztec or working on you know the craft or on the retrieval and he had to pencil them in as being uh sick doing something yeah right so this is another witness yeah um actually he was at walker air force oh he's at walker air force i see um his job was to make sure years later if you're in a bar with your buddies and you oh yeah i worked on a flying saucer back in 48 and that that that that that somebody could say well that's not true you were at mcdill air force base and you were in the infirmary with a twisted ankle here it is right here and that's what he did he said there were up to 200 people working on the recovery that he had to invent in stories for that's yeah on a daily ledger and this person came to you or you found them a little bit of both but yeah um scott tracked him down i tracked him down but he was very willing to talk and and gave me details we already knew about that were not public they weren't in steinman's book they weren't really they weren't and any details you want to share or is that still something you uh just basically the military had to cut a road at that point we hadn't even talked about that uh the slab he worked with the other gentleman that we were talking about earlier that had to requisition all these whatever yeah whatever and had to take charge of the town essentially and then there's also um i'm sorry just thought lost my thought give me one second uh happens to me on a hourly basis it still happens to me go ahead it was something that was going to add to give me just a second i don't know he's part of so maybe this will jog it um so this gentleman helped did he help locate the slab or or was he just aware or he was just aware that there was one out there that there was one out there one or two one or two we had to pour concrete is as we say you had to pour concrete without knowing that you had found he hadn't even known that yet okay the other thing that this gentleman shared was some of the other jobs that the military had and one of them was once the craft was moved out of there was taking and re-landscaping yeah right and you saw that and you saw i'm so glad we brought this up because for me that is one of those pieces of evidence that i can see just much like the slab that's there that's tangible tangible exactly and again you're out there there's no reason for you to be anywhere near there you've got to drive to get to the nearest into the nearest oil well like it's really out of the way yeah and so there is the photo that you guys you know have of like and we you know we took a drone out there with jesse here it is um with jesse's team you know i went out there at seven in the morning with brian you know we got some burritos for everybody and we're like we're gonna go get this shot so me and him woke up extra early to get this shot because it's just the sunrise out in that desert is so beautiful as well you want to and sunsets um but we wanted to essentially get a view from the top that shows not only the washed out area where this craft would have been because okay there's there's a few things here so first of all you get to this place you had mentioned earlier they found cut trees right in this area but there's not only cut trees there's trees that are derouted there's trees that are broken there's literally dozens of them like maybe over a hundred like in the area there's so many if you're out in the desert there's no reason for there to be derouted cut broken trees unless there was some type of fire that happened or a lightning strike right but very unusual to have so many and they're just still lying there i'll give you the backstory on that too back when bill steinman if you look at his pictures of the craft site and early pictures that i took of the craft site those trees are all splayed from where you were laying toward the what we call the parking except the ones that are the newer ones that are planted well yeah so they're intermingled right you have Some that are like growing this way, which is towards where the winch would have been. Right. And then you have other ones, the younger ones, that are all upright. Yeah. In a line. I might mention when we say trees, just so everyone is on the same page, they're pinyon trees. So this is not like a big oak or something like this. These are like a bush, a tall bush. Yeah. And they're an evergreen type material, a species. And they're where you get your pinyon nuts or pine nuts from. Right, yeah. So, and they're probably, I don't know, the highest ones are probably what, eight feet? Yeah, eight or ten feet. They're not huge, huge trees. And they're growing all crooked and spindly. That's exactly, yeah. They're artistic. But they're all facing. Exactly. If you look at this chunk, and there's a chunk here, you can actually see it's like here. Yeah. As soon as you cross that, these trees stop. Leaning over. Right. They're just straight up. And in this section, there's dead trees all over. They're splayed. It's a bald spot. They're broke. Yes. And then you have these rows, which are very straight lines. Perfect rows of trees. Of trees that have been planted subsequently due to, you know, I guess it was BLM that was, you know, sent to plant. They didn't know they were covering up a year. No, it was the military. It was the military. It was the military at that time. Yeah, because we interviewed a guy. A guy that was part of that. I see. So they're planting trees, doing a terrible job because they're planting them in straight lines, just like Johnny Appleseed over here. Like Johnny, like Mother Nature does, right? Perfect lines. Well, think about it, though. If you were told to go in and landscape this area, you know, around our homes or buildings or whatever, you're landscaping in lines, linear. Of course, yeah. And whereas Mother Nature is organic and it's intermittent. Yeah, they're not told you're covering up a crash recovery of a UFO. He was told that they were, he was on a cleanup mission team for the Air Force. I see. So that would mean prototype bombers, prototype fighters, a lot of activity in New Mexico. Once whatever was taken out, short of using a vacuum cleaner, they were told to clean the crash site. I see. Pieces of Lexan, pieces of special aluminum, whatever. But it was all aircraft related. And he said, we could tell. When we got to Aztec, that it wasn't a normal one. They didn't have much debris. The craft was intact. The only thing they had to do was basically re-landscape where heavy equipment had come in and replant the trees. Now, the problem with that is that these Mesa caps, a lot of them, if not done properly, the water is just going to wash it away. Wash it right away. You get a big flood going in there. You get a big downpour. And it's just going to wash all your work, all those seeds, all those bushes or whatever, down the cliff. Right. And that's exactly what happens here. Right. Where this might have been clearly covered by all sorts of brush, all sorts of bush, is now a giant bald spot. Right. And you wonder, OK, you got bald spot. You got dead trees around. You got trees that are going this way, clearly in the line of exactly where that cement cap was, to me. That was one of the most eye-opening revelations that I'd come across with this case. Being there and seeing all that for myself was like, no, clearly there's been activity here. Going back to Steinman's pictures and my pictures, where the big bald spot is, the big landing site, for the lack of a better word, there were trees going like that all the way to the parking lot. Yep. The only reason. The only reason they got moved. If you remember now, they're behind the plaque. Yeah. When the library wanted to have tours out there, they were told by somebody at the BLM, you got a lot of trip hazards out there. And that's, you're going to be crossing private land and our land. They've got to be moved. So we spent a weekend, a month or so before, a group of us, including Randy Barnes, and we moved all the dead trees behind where the plaque was already there. So when you. But they're still there, those dead trees. Yeah. Yeah. A lot have been hacked up into firewood, but probably 80% of the trees are still there. They're just all stacked behind the plaque. But, well, when we were out there, that was. And again, no reason to have dead trees out there. Yeah. I might add that this is one of, well, I couldn't even give you infinite reasons of why, when you do research, you can't just look at it and say, oh, there's dead trees out there. You can't look at it and say, oh, there's dead trees out there. And when they came down, he said, do you see that? And we just sat there quiet. We couldn't believe that that was there in front of us all those years. And only in that narrow path were those pieces would have been dragging through all these trees. So it just reminds us, and we've had this happen many, many times over the years, of how you have to go sit in somebody else's shoes, look from a different perspective, try and see, and not judge. Just, well, here's our answer, and just keep going. Same reason why I laid down where the bodies were. Exactly. No, exactly. I don't know why I did it, but I thought this is an interesting perspective. It certainly is. Okay. So the scientists that are there, they eventually relay this information, allegedly according to, you know, Frank Scully, to Frank Scully, who is, you know, for those people who don't know who Frank Scully is, a movie producer in Hollywood. Yeah, more of a movie writer. More of a writer, movie writer. Yeah. Famous, though, by, you know, Hollywood standards back then. Pretty well known, well respected. But he did a lot of work. Yep. Financially, as a writer, he produced enough that he took care of his family. He didn't need this. No. And I think that this is always really important about Frank to me, is that when people in Hollywood, he ran with the Hollywood crowd, people in Hollywood, had problems or trouble, they would come, he would come and stay on his, what they call the. Scully Ranch. Scully Ranch or the Scully Circus. And he had a good-sized family, and they would stay with him. And they could come and take care of themselves and heal and know that they were safe. Yeah. Their secrets would not be shared. Sure. I personally think that that's why he had a reputation for that, for being trusted. He didn't blah, blah. He also wrote people's books. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He wrote books for them. He was a ghost writer. So people knew that they could trust him. I believe that that's why, of all people, that the Dr. G's went to him and said, we want to tell the story. It's going to be released to the public in a year. Eventually, yep. In a year. Let's get going on it. I believe that with all my heart and soul. And he, to this day, you know, to the day he died, has never shared. Never divulged who Dr. G was. And I think that there are so many things. The book, when you read his book, Frank Scully's book, oh, he's a fabulous writer. I mean, he's almost lyrical, you know, and he puts riddles and things in there. But he is a phenomenal writer. Absolutely. But he is very careful and he has never divulged. And I really, really believe that they knew that about him. And you can't say that about everybody. But subsequently. I mean, researchers will arise over time and you guys will do a lot of the digging as well. Bill Steinman and so many others. You've compiled a list of who you think the Dr. G's are. And now a lot of people are going to read, you know, the cliff notes or the headlines and they'll be like, Dr. G is Leo Gebauer. That starts with a G. Right. But there's more to it. Who are some of the people that you think are represented by Dr. G? Let me say one thing. Frank Scully's daughter actually would see Dr. G, the main Dr. G, come and speak to her dad. And it was not Leo Gebauer. It was not Leo Gebauer. And how do you know that? Because she also knew Leo Gebauer. Right. So I didn't want to interrupt that. No, that's fine. But I think that's important to know that. She's spoken to her. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Years ago. You've spoken to her. You've also spoken to Leo Gebauer's daughter. That's correct. One of two daughters. One of two twins, right? And so you have. You've done quite a bit of digging on, you know, other people's supposed debunks to disprove them. Quite easily, actually. You can. They're easily dismissed. But before we get into that stuff, let's talk about the scientists. Okay. Bill Steinman came up with the actual Dr. Well, Dr. G is a broad terminology for all. all the scientists that work worked on it. The head guy that first contacted Scully was probably Carl Hyland. He worked, a very brilliant guy, Dr. Carl Hyland. He worked, his last thing before he retired, he worked at the Colorado School of Mines. Brilliant physicist. The one that I came up with was Jonathan Torrance Tate, who worked at the University of Minnesota. His name comes up quite a lot. Yeah, he was a brilliant guy. They're all brilliant. Amazing. Bill and I had many a conversation before he died, and we all became friends. He and his wife and Suzanne and I, we got to dinner and lunches. And Bill says, well, you know, Jonathan Torrance Tate, they both had a history of going to school, college here, and then in Germany, right? Right before the war broke out. Their whole background, their whole resume was very similar. And of course, they knew each other. I kind of stuck with Tate. And Tate mysteriously died right when the book, right when Scully's book came out. Died of a stroke. In 1950. Wink, wink. Yeah. Yeah. A couple of years before that, his wife died. Hyland retired in 40, after making a trip to the Southwest. Right. That's public. You could go right there and read his resume. He came back from wherever he was in the Southwest and turned in his retirement paperwork. Tate, of course, like I said, died in 50. After pouring through all the research Steinman did and what I did and Suzanne did, we went and opened boxes at the University of New Mexico that had never been opened. We were, when you go down, you go down in the vaults and they bring you, you put gloves on and they have seals on big deal. And they have the people that have signed up. This is one of my favorite experiences. It was, I'm sorry, but I got to interject. I just love this. That's all right. But after really laying it on the ground, okay, you know, we're the jury, which one's Dr. G? I do believe Steinman hit it on the head. It was Carl Hyland. Uh, every, everybody in that whole group, there were nine scientists because one of them died and they had to replace one. Um, one died even before Tate, but Hyland, if you go word for word of what Scully says, uh, Hyland was the guy. So can I tell the Dr. Tate story? Yeah, it was great. Scott and I were in Minnesota and we go to the University of Minnesota and had to make all these appointments, go to the library. I mean, seriously, it's, it's a huge, beautiful place. Have to put on little white gloves. They bring out all these boxes that we had to do in advance. I mean, literally it took several months of work to get done. So we get in there and you know, your eyes are about this big because it's just, there's no sound, it's quiet. And we sit there and we don't know what exactly we're looking for, but the boxes, you know, we start to unload the boxes and it's like a treasure hunt. You're going through and each one and this is a treasure hunt. And I'm like, oh, this is a treasure hunt. And I'm like, hmm, this is interesting, but really nothing, no big deal. And then all of a sudden we start to see a pattern. Oh, this was such an amazing experience for me. It was so emotional. So the pattern that we see is Tate, who is a genius, um, as a professor, he has, um, he's just done so many innovations. He's done so many creative things. And with the students that he works with, he never puts his name first, or when he works in, you know, in conjunction with someone, never puts his name first. Sometimes he eliminates his name. Just was a person that was very private, a tall, good looking man, thin, but he just never liked attention drawn to him ever. So fast forward to, and everyone says how brilliant, how kind and generous he is. I mean, you just see these notes through all these boxes. We keep seeing this over and over students, professors, you know, his colleagues. And then we see where he takes a trip to the Southwest. Drove before interstates. And this is, he hated flying. And this is in 48, March of 48. And Scott and I are like this, you know, you just kind of get giddy. And, and it confirms the suspicion. Like, and it says he comes back and this is what's so powerful. He comes back and he calls people from all over, colleagues, students, everyone together. Basically a news, a news, a press, like a press release, a press conference, but it's a conference. So he has everyone there and he doesn't have someone else speaking. He is the head speaker and he gets up there and he said, based on what I have just seen in the Southwest on my trip, we now have the ability to change the world. We can, we have ways to, for fuel and feeding people that we've never had before. Holy smokes. To have all that attention on him was so out of character. Yeah. And, and it's like nailed it. You know, it's. That is a speech you would have after seeing something like that. Yeah. The world has changed for you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Then all this time up until this point, he has worked, I guess I'll use the term and I might be a better term for it, in the defense industry. Sure. He stops that immediately and he goes into a philanthropic mode for the rest of his life. Wow. Which wasn't long. Which wasn't long. Yeah. Less than two years. And probably also, you know, where he would have turned to Frank in, in, in, in trying to like plead to someone else. Yeah. Hey, you know, this has got to get out. This has got to get out. Right. Yeah. Wow. How powerful. Getting back to the other scientists, I know I'll make this quick because we've got a lot, a lot to cover here. They all had resumes that anybody would like to have. Half of them went on to form Geoscience, which later became Texas Instruments. Right. They took, they took it public, then changed it to, actually they split it off as a separate company. Actually, the company's still alive in Canada, right here in Canada. You mean in Nevada? No, actually. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. That's all right. That's Western Canada. Yeah, that's right. Southwestern. And it was really funny because, you know, it was funny because then we had to dig into their backgrounds. What did each scientist bring to the party? And they all worked on projects in the War Department, working for Vandiver Bush during World War II. Every one of them. Big surprise. Without, yeah, yeah, right. They had, a lot of people criticized Scully's book when it came out in 1950, September 16th, 1950, I believe. Because he was talking about, we could, we could find enemy subs and blow them out of the water. And people were going, that's nonsense, bullshit. Well, it turned out they did. They weren't blowing up Japanese so much as they were German subs off the coast of North Carolina or wherever. They had a MAD device, Magnetic Anomaly Detection Device, which is still used by the Air Force and the Navy today. And they would find the subs through their metal haul and then drop charges down on them. So where he sounded like he was talking about. Some science fiction. Some science fiction stuff. We were going through it going, here's another one. Here's another one. Looking it up. Yep. That was the Vandiver Bush project also. Yeah. How would he know? Yeah, right. Yeah. I'm a Hollywood writer now. Yeah. With that stuff. Because that stuff probably was still top secret. Definitely. Of 1850. Well, and the fact, do you remember the impact that Texas Instruments had? You know, if they went from GSI, created Texas Instruments, they were ahead of the game. Yeah. Way ahead. That's your, that's your Raytheon, your, you know, high-tech company back then. And they were really, really, Suzanne and I had to move out of our house. We had a pipe break while we were not home. So, you know, what kind of damage that would do. So, the insurance company moved us to a living type hotel where we had living room, dining room, kitchen and. For a month and a half. Yeah. We got a lot of the first book done during that. Because there's nothing to do it. Hunkered down. Yeah. We hunkered down and got out and were able to do research. I called Texas Instruments. They gave me the name of a retired employee. Um, he gave me an education like I, I couldn't have bought anywhere. Yeah. He said, well, here's what we did back at GSI at da, da, da, da, da, da, da. And here were the players And, you know, not talking about Aztec and a flying saucer retrieval, that would have probably shut him down. But talking about, walk me through post-World War II and all the technology, and this guy was brilliant. And he said, you need to be looking up Karcher, you need to be looking up Green, and all the people that were— So he gave you a lot of the names that you researched. Yeah. Wow. Almost every one, actually. So he was a big help. Yeah, because, like, you're back then, you know, Texas Instruments or whatever, and you're, let's say, a scientist working there, anybody in the sort of technical science field, you're looking up at a lot of these guys as, like, superheroes. Oh, yeah. That are working at the top, that are working on these projects that you only aspire to be a part of, hopefully, one day. Right. And so those are the names that he was giving you. Yeah. Makes sense. I might add that Scully discusses about some of the other things that were inside. And, again, he looked foolish at the time, but things that were found inside of the craft. And there was almost like a petroglyphs— Yeah, petroglyphs, yeah. Writing. Mm-hmm. There was, like, a mirrored sunglass. You know how, like, a mirrored sunglass, you would see that type of material? When they actually found the hole on the craft, the one hole— In a portable. It was a porthole, but it was not visible. It blended right in with everything. So they were able to do that. There were flat-screen TVs. There were flat, small— Touchpads or— No, they were like CDs, really. Oh, yeah. With information on them. Whoa. They had booklets that had—seemed to have writing on them. And we really spent time trying to see who—to try and locate those and see, you know, what information— Not just locate those, but locate— The information. —who the top cryptologist would have been. And it looked like his name wasn't Stanton, but he was Dr. Friedman. He worked with NSA, CIA, everybody. Unfortunately, he's long past. But that would have been something that would have funneled onto his desk. Right into him, yeah. If not, and I can't pronounce the guy's name, your buddy UAP Gerbman. I mentioned him in the Aztec. Okay. From our talk in Maryland. Who would have also been like a— He got the name— A decipherer. Yeah, he got the pronunciation right. I'll butcher it so bad. I know I will. But they were the two leading cryptologists. Wow. How would you even go about deciphering that anyways? I have no idea. There's no comparison, right? No, no. To like human—wow. Like trying to— Yeah. Evaluate a cat's meow. Exactly. Yeah, precisely. Not, you know, I mean, worth trying, but, you know. Okay. So, these are the scientists. That's Dr. G. How—okay, now we have a J.P. Kahn coming out in 1952. You know, you Google Aztec— Hoax. First thing that comes up. And it comes up multiple times. The Aztec crash hoax. It's about 50-50, honestly. Yeah. But, I mean, you read hoax. The Wikipedia. You know, the Wikipedia page and all that. You know, immediately, if you're looking at this from an outside perspective, you're going to go, ah, this has already been debunked. I'm not going to waste my time. Yeah. Right. And most of that, I would say most of the harm comes from this, you know, one-page lazy debunk by J.P. Kahn. Right. Yeah. Which claims that Leo Gebauer and Silas Newton, who are apparently Dr. G, are behind all of this. And these guys are snakes. These guys are snake oil salesmen. These guys are—they've been imprisoned, according to this. It's this whole slanderous piece that hinges its entirety on these two guys being crooks. Right. Tell us about Silas Newton and Leo Gebauer. Well, in 1950, when the book came out, the FBI and Frank Scully will both tell you he was worth $20 million. Yeah. And those FBI documents— Silas Newton. Silas Newton. Silas Newton. Those FBI documents are in this book. Right. So, the guy who's a snake oil salesman who's trying to make a dollar off of this is worth $20 million at the time. At the time. At the time. Okay. That's $1950. So, not just some low-level crook that J.P. Kahn makes him out to be. Right. Understood. The low-level crook may have been J.P. Kahn. Yeah. I don't know where to begin to start. I guess— There's a really good letter, three-page letter, in this book that came right out of Frank Scully's archives. It's a university of—university—where's the university we went to, Mike Price and I? Wyoming. Wyoming. Mm-hmm. We flew into Denver and drove up to Laramie. The university at Laramie is the world's largest archive. For writers, artists, the whole bit. And they have, I don't know how many thousand Frank Scully documents. Mike Price and I got in there Sunday night. We hit it Monday morning early, researched until they threw us out Friday night. Saturday, drove down to Denver and flew back to North Carolina. It's an amazing archive, amazing people that work there. They're like, whatever you need, we're right here. And we copied 700 or 800 documents. They convinced them, brought them back. And one is a letter from Silas Newton to Frank Scully saying, here's what went down with J.P. Kahn. Here's what he's telling you. Here's reality. And then Scully's letter back to Newton and the attorney's letters to both of them. Wow. And you never read any of that in the debunkers. Of course not. Ah, they were con men. J.P. Kahn actually was a competitor. He was a competing writer. Yeah. And he was sour. And he was sour because he got wind of the fact that this was going to come. Somehow there was a leak. And actually. That Scully beat him to it. Scully had beat him to it. Put a little bit of information out there. And he was so angry and embarrassed because he went around. He told the paper that he had the deal. He said, I've got it back. Prematurely. Prematurely. So his motive. And he had the book deal for the Aztec case. No. He convinced Scott Newhouse and everybody at the San Francisco Chronicle. Uh-huh. That I have a story that is so incredible. Right. It's going to knock your socks off. It's about a flying saucer recovery. Yeah. And all he had done was said to Scully, I want to buy the rights to it. And Scully's like, I already got Hoyt and company to publish it. What do I need you for? And there was a little friction there. And now that little friction became huge. Huge friction. And then he had to go back to Scott Newhall and say, I don't have the deal. Right. I thought I did. He offered him money, several thousand dollars. And Scully repeatedly, because he was so well regarded, he didn't need that. And so that's how that, and the motive, that was his motive. And Kahn was very, very wealthy. He came from a wealthy family. So wealthy that he never had to work. Yeah, never really had a job. He was a very good writer. But egoism. He could just do what he wanted, really. So he also was friends with J. Edgar Hoover, his family. He was, he had a lot of, a lot of flamboyant friends. It seems like the call was coming from inside the house a little bit. Yeah. And so when he, that was like, it almost dovetailed, again, well, J.P. Kahn with Hoover and the military all trying to cover this up. They all worked together. Yeah. It was an amazing, really. I don't know if you could invent it. It feels like a multi-pronged sort of attack, like a deliberate, slanderous attack on Frank Scully, on anyone. Anyone. Yeah, who was getting close to this stuff. Anyone that touched the Aztec story. Yeah. And that was his, his way of getting revenge. And he had, again, lots of money and lots of time to do it. Which is, I think, just a beautiful thing about how you guys have treated this case, because where most people would veer their heads. At the second of someone saying we've debunked this, most people, so many lazy researchers out there that I've encountered. And I hate, you know, I don't want to point the finger at anyone. But there are people out there that when I talk about this case, all they do is send me a link to that page. Right. And it's so aggravating. Isn't that amazing? And I'm sure you've dealt with it as well. But it's so lazy. You can't cite one page and say, this guy did the work for me, so here's your debunk. No, that guy didn't do. That guy didn't do. He didn't do the work, actually. Yeah. And there's, you know, 70 years of work after that guy that you haven't even looked at. And so what you guys did was, hey, okay, there's this. We're going to dig into who is Silas Newton? Who is Leo Gaypower? And what you've come up with is not only, does not only, like, overshadow all of the JP Khan debunk stuff, but it actually sheds a light on these characters that we didn't even. It points you in a direction we didn't even know we were going. Right. Right. Right. There's a thick file on these guys. You're talking about a rabbit hole. This is pretty impressive. So, you know, to call them crux or whatever. By the way, they didn't go to jail. They got fined. It was a civil case. Civil case, right. About taking a check over a state line. Had nothing to do with. Yeah, that was all it was. So, blown out of proportion. Well, they were after Silas because of his relationship with Scully. Yeah. I think that they were afraid to go after Scully, although they tried. Many times they tried. But it was, let's cut the head off of the snake. Yeah. And that's Silas Newton who brought the scientist to Scully, or at least Carl Highland. Don't forget, Highland, these guys were all in energy research. So, yes, Silas Newton and Highland would have known each other. I don't think he would have got to be net worth of $20 million if he didn't know that guy. They were both. They were both big players in energy. The whole thing, when you can write a letter or call J. Edgar Hoover and have him write a letter back to you and say, really, they didn't care what the story was. And one of the correspondents, we don't care about that. We want to know who's spreading the story. Yeah. Who is spreading the story that we've tried to keep a lid on. Yeah. You were talking about debunkers. I just got to add this. You got an email. There's a well-known, but he's fading quickly, Into the Dust researcher out in California. I won't say his name because it would actually power him up and he'd feel good he got mentioned. But he called me one day and said, you have an email address? And I said, yeah, why? You're wasting your time and money on this case. I said, it's not money motivated. It's hobby motivated. I got the same link. I got the Wikipedia link. He goes, you got to read this. I'm like, yeah, I've read it like 20 years ago. But anyway, the whole FBI file is an amazing read. Now, they didn't give me everything. I have all the rejection sheets in the book. Let's talk about the FBI file because most people don't know about this. Right. Certainly. Yeah. You requested some files also. Well, yeah, I requested all the Leo Gaybauer files again. We already have a ton. I'll just tell you. You saw them. 300 pages. Massive. So who is Leo Gaybauer for those? Leo Gaybauer was a very successful everything he touched. He was first and foremost a real estate developer. He developed most apartments. He built a house in Paradise Valley, which ironically. Arizona. Arizona. Ironically, there was a UFO crash there. He built really nice high-end homes. He built a whole development, which Mike Price and Frank Thayer and Andy Kister and I went there and stood there and looked at these beautiful homes. The only house that is not there was the wedding gift he gave to his daughter, Bea, and her husband. And that subsequently is they. Now grew the house, was torn down, and now there's a new house on the lot. But, you know, they make them out to be a used radio sales, radio parts business. Bea's husband was Leo Gaybauer's financial guy. He was like the COO of the company. Or CFO. CFO. I'm sorry. And, you know, I had dinner with him. And they're going, where do we start? Yeah, the radio parts. This guy have a CFO. Yeah, right. Exactly. And he was very successful as a developer. Pretty much everything he touched, he and his now son-in-law at the time, they had a lot of successful ventures. Just multi, multimillionaire. Well, he wasn't at the status of Silas Newton. But having, you know. He's like, who is? Yeah, who is? But having homes and a real estate, you know, and he wasn't hard up for money. No, no, not at all. Not at all. And his daughter, who has a twin sister, and she lives, I don't want to say where. They, she told me how they were followed as they walked to school. And like elementary school. A black sedan would just inch along with them. It was the FBI. All this intimidation. Yeah. The, the biggest thing, I think, is the fact that they were followed. The fact that we requested to the FBI. We would like, oh, somebody at the FBI that I've been working with said, hey, by the way, there's, you're getting the redacted file. We have an unredacted file. I'll see if I can get it to you. Well, Suzanne and I wait a certain time and I call him back and I go, how do I get it? And he goes, you're not going to believe this. It got moved to the National Archives. Wouldn't you know it. Just like that. And wouldn't you, and why, what? What, what purpose would anyone have in moving a file to the National Archive of someone who's a used radio salesman, a hoaxer, some, some low-level thief criminal? Why would his massive 300 page have? Oh, it's, it's more than that. Suzanne and I have like 293 or 297. And I've seen this thing. It is like this. Yeah. Yeah. And this is the color of every page. Pretty much. This is how much you can read. It's hilarious. You're reading it and this is every page. You're turning every page and this is what you're seeing on every page. So in other words, they black out almost every single detail. There's like the word, the. We have one. We have one. It's not about Leo Gebauer. We have one on Aztec from the Air Force. I waited months and months to get it. Kind of fought with him and we get it back and I had to show it to Stan Friedman. We were at a conference together. I said, Stan, I finally got the file and I hand it to him. He goes, they left the frigging word the. And he goes like this and shows me it was all black. They all have a sense of humor a little bit too. Yeah, of course. But this guy who's, who's a nobody essentially, who's some low-level criminal. Why does he have a 300 page file that is now not only redacted, but moved now that is now moved to the National Archives. Now, what's the significance of the National Archives? I don't know what, how important you have to be in life to get put in there. Mike Price, who you hear us talk about, he's deceased. He died during COVID. Mike said to me one day, I'm bored. I'm going to fly to DC and go to the National Archives. It's a read-only file. Well, I said, that's not true because they told us it was available. Too much time. Time had passed. We should get it. Either way, I'm coming back with knowledge. Okay. So Mike, having his own private air fleet, flies up and calls me that morning and says, all right, I'm at the National Archives. I'm signed in. I'm going through all the do's and don'ts. And I'm really excited. I should have something by the end of the day. Well, they, end of the day comes and goes. And Mike said, what's up? And they go, who told you it was here? And Mike said, the FBI. They said, well, it's, there's two locations for the National Archives. There's Suitland, Maryland across the bridge. And then there's us right here in DC. And Mike said, and? And they said, it's at the Suitland, Maryland location. And Mike said, okay, well, can we change my credentials? I'll go over there tomorrow. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's not the way it works. You have to apply with them and go through this whole, this whole process that you and Scott Ramsey went through to get in here. Because we did. I'm trying to give you the Reader's Digest version in the interest of time. And so Mike said, what do you want me to do? I said, well, I know you're a good pilot. You've got all the latest avionics. You ought to just turn around and come home because your weather's going south pretty quick. So Mike flew back to North Carolina. And I have been working. Mike passed away. I have been working. I have been working with Suzanne and trying to get the National Archives that now say it's not a read-only document. We can get it to you. We just don't know if we want to, basically. I mean, they're not saying that in an email, but it's sort of like, yeah. You're playing coy. It could be. It could be given to you. And we have had numerous times. We were going to make a trip up there to go into the archives. And numerous times. And all of a sudden, we'll make some progress. Scott's adamant about it. He makes progress with the person, develops a rapport. We're on our way, filling out the paperwork, doing all of that. And then all of a sudden, oh, it's changed. The paperwork's changed to someone else's. They're in charge. Yeah, I don't have that jurisdiction anymore. Cat and mouse. It is happening. And that happened months. Well, now we're at years. Yeah. Because then the excuse was, well, it's COVID season. Sure. And we can't let you in. But since COVID, we've been going on and through this. I mean, it's ridiculous. It's ridiculous. It's ridiculous. government shutdown, we just don't have the people here to help you. You're getting the runaround. Absolutely, runaround. I think there is an FBI document that states they're doing a background check on Leo Gehbauer. And it talks about his previous – and it's more of a question. Yes. More of his previous intelligence background from World War II, basically question mark, do we have the right Leo Gehbauer? Because he was involved in something. We don't know what. Yeah. And that's what they don't want us to know. Right. So there's something else that Leo Gehbauer was involved in that may or may not have to do with UFOs, but that definitely has to do with national security. Absolutely. Right. Yeah. And that's what they're trying to create. One of the things that we really worked in the book. To do is take you to – I know this story is very complex. You have been such a good sport about trying to walk through with us, but it's a very complex case. Yeah. And the beauty of it is there's a lot of information. Oh, yeah. And documentation. But it takes time, and you kind of have to follow through. What we've tried to do in the book is, regarding Leo and Silas Newton, Leo Gehbauer and Silas Newton, the people that were supposedly – you always see the term hoax associated with – what we've tried to do is show you the documentation and walk you through proving that it's not true. Oh, they're exonerated in my opinion. Oh, yeah. But it's easy to say that, but you have to prove it. Yep. And that's really what we've tried to do is walk you through so that you can see the correspondence with J. Edgar Hoover. I mean, you can see the difference. Different things and how J.P. Kahn went about trying to discredit this whole thing. And really, by the time you're finished, I'm hoping that you have a sense of peace of, well, we can take that whole chunk of garbage and throw it out and look at the case now. Yeah, definitely. Because that's really – J.P. Kahn, there's a song – It's so unfortunate that it's stuck. It's such – That's by design. It is by design. Yeah. It just goes to show you, like, how the intelligence community works as well. It's like they can just throw something out there, and if it's not true, it doesn't matter. No. It poisons the well. Yeah. And they did a really good job at poisoning the well in this case. Oh, my gosh. I would bet that there are departments that study this. Yeah. I mean, really. Yeah, what do we say? What combination of words can be used? They learned so much from Roswell. I mean, really, think about it. And the fact that this was nipped in the butt immediately. Yeah. This didn't show up in newspapers, this crash. That's right. Nothing, right? Nothing. They had to go shut those down immediately. They had to go to the newspapers. And that's something – you know, you guys – I'm going to show something. I don't know if we'll end up getting into this, but you showed me papers and documentation of the specific divisions within the Air Force that were sent out to – essentially, that were vying for Project Blue Book or Project Grudge at the time, that were trying to – to gain access to all of that and being like, here's the – essentially, like, the men in black to-do list. Yeah. And, you know, what do you tell people they saw? What do you ask people? Where do you go first? Well, you go to the radio station. You go to the newspaper. You go to – like, they had a whole list of how to deal with this stuff already. And you guys uncovered that as well, which I thought was pretty interesting. And during World War II, every major – well, not every major – every newspaper had their own intelligence person. Yeah. Hmm. To read through – Still now. Yeah. Well, I'm getting to that. To read through to make sure something going out in the news isn't something classified or top secret. After World War II, where'd those people go? Yeah. Yeah. It wasn't like, well, Joe, I got laid off last week. The war's over. I can quit spying on you. Yeah. I spoke to someone who was a liaison at a very prominent, prestigious – prestigious – Right. – network, television network that had acquired a very high position. And with that position came the position of liaison to the three-letter agencies, the alphabet soup agencies. Interesting. And this person as well, who I won't name, made a lot of UFO documentaries. Sure. Oh, my gosh. And he was absolutely told, kick up all the information to us, and we'll make you rich and famous. Yeah. Yeah. Holy smokes. And that's what he did, and that's what he became. Mm-hmm. So there's still absolutely a hand in all that. And I, you know, I wouldn't limit it to only networks nowadays. Oh, no. No, I agree. There's a phrase I want to read and just read from here. Just one sentence, and I think it refers, jumping back to J.P. Kahn. And over the years that we have been doing this, research, J.P. Kahn, again, was the guy that was really out to sacrifice Frank Scully. And there's an Elton John song, and it just, every time I hear it, it just touches my heart, because I think J.P. Kahn, it says, Empty Garden, the song Empty Garden. Funny how one insect can damage so much grain. And when you said the fact that the impact that J.P. Kahn had changed, changed this whole story, discredited so much. Oh, yeah. Really, a lot of power for one person. It's crazy how much you have to work to rebuild that trust with people, to rebuild that. Oh, my gosh. It's a lifetime of work, clearly. Really? Yeah, I mean, clearly, yeah. The other detractor who I want to talk about is Carl Flock. Mm-hmm. This guy, what a character. You know, if you research. Aztec documentary on YouTube, you're going to get a documentary featuring yourself, Scott, among Stan Friedman, among so many other people, I think, in this documentary. But you are next to Carl Flock on this documentary, adjacent to him. That may have been one done in 2004. Yeah, could be. But it's on YouTube. If you Google it, it comes up. And, you know, you have this sort of back and forth. Of researcher. Debunker. Debunker. Something really interesting happens with this guy, eventually. And I'm going to let you. I'll let you kind of take it from here, but people who know of Carl Flock, do they know his background? And you have an anecdote that I think people should hear that I think, in my opinion, proves the cover-up. Of this whole thing, or proves at least the attempted cover-up, or at least part of it. Well, Carl was self-proclaimed expert on the Aztec UFO crash. He lives about two hours from Aztec. Did. He passed away, too. When I was researching my early years of Aztec, I obviously didn't know Carl. But he contacted the library one day, because the library was central in Aztec. Because they were using the Aztec crash as a fundraiser to raise money for a new library, which they did build, by the way. It's very beautiful. Carl was annoyed that somebody had opened up the lid on Aztec and called the library. Not being Carl Flock, the ex-CIA agent, but Carl Flock, the neighbor down the road. That's a bit of a revelation, too, for people who don't know. Carl was ex-CIA. For Bush. Right? I'd have to go back and pull his record. Good push. I mean, that's an interesting person to work under. Right. Yeah. And so here we have Carl never mentioning Aztec. And then I get in there with my group. It was before Suzanne and I got married. And the Randy Barneses and, you know, people like that. And we start ruffling up Aztec. All of a sudden, Carl shows up. He's the world-renowned. You guys need to talk to me. I can tell you all about it. There's a Wikipedia page you need to read, too. And we actually let him talk at Aztec two years, I believe. And it was horrible. I mean, being a library, you have to have both sides of the equation. You can't just have a bunch of pro-UFO people. That doesn't work. The library, but also that's who we are. Yeah, that's the standard you should hold yourself to. And so Carl came and he did his thing. We had Dave Thomas and Carl, the two debunkers on Aztec. And Dave Thomas did a bunch of magic tricks, not as good as yours, and said, see, folks, this is how a hoax starts. I performed all this magic in front of you, and that's all Aztec is. And then he made the statement. He made the statement that Hart Canyon Road wasn't even built. It wasn't even cut in 1948. And there's people kind of in the front row that laughed because they live on Hart Canyon Road. And they know how long it's been. And they weren't young teenagers. They were older people. And then Carl gets up to do his thing. And it was, you know, the same old, same old. They were two con men that brought the story to Frank Scully. And then they got arrested and thrown in jail for doing a con. Well, okay, nobody got arrested. Nobody went to jail. It's the same regurgitated crap we hear about Aztec. And I even pulled Carl aside after that and said, if you come back in the future, don't use that one. Do a little better. You're a smart guy. And he was very smart. And ironically, if it weren't for Aztec, Carl and I actually became pretty good friends. We loved antique guns. We had a lot of the same interests. But when it came to Aztec, he was actually brutal. Well, he had a job to do. Well, he did. He did. And he was good at it. And he was brutal in how he handled people like me toward the end. He was very brutal. He was very devious. And he pulled some underhanded things, which I shared with you. I was asked by a politician to go down to Maxwell and check on these alleged Air Force Base radar stations that we found. So we did that. We did that. And we've been working on that for a number of years. I got back to Charlotte, went over to the Xerox copier, copied them all, and sent this collection to Santa Fe, New Mexico, where this politician was eagerly waiting for him. I'll say that. Well, a couple days later, I get a phone call. Again, our receptionist came out and says, there's New Mexico State Police on a conference call. They want you on it. Okay, well, what's this all about? Well, anyway, it was the politician and the police department, the Capitol Police of Santa Fe. And he said, I've got you on speaker because I want them to hear every word out of your mouth. What did you send me this week? I mean, radar base documents from the Air Force. I said, why? He said, somebody broke into my office. They didn't take those documents. They're sitting right on the left-hand side. They're sitting right on the left-hand side of my desk. But they took the overnight package out of the trash can. They want to see who I'm talking to. Why? Well, apparently, the radar bases have something to do with Aztec, which would make sense because the first one was built in 46. The other two weren't built till 50, 52. And they weren't run by the Air Force. Matter of fact, the Air Force had a hell of a time getting me the history on them. I went in and laid the pictures down. And you found it. On the desk. He said, I'm not only telling you I saw it. I took photographs of it. And the gentleman at Maxwell looked at it and said, that's a radar base. That's pretty smart about that. It turned out, and God bless him because he really went above and beyond the call of an archivist. And he called me one day and said, the Atomic Energy Commission built them to protect Los Alamos. And by 57, the new Dueline technology, they were done. So, 46 to 57 was the oldest, and 50 to 57. And then I think 52, they built the third one out at Continental Divide. So, you had Continental Divide, El Vado, and Moriarty. And it was kind of a triangle around Los Alamos. Not that you need a triangle. You don't have to triangulate it. But that was mentioned in Scully's book. And a lot of debunkers said, there's no radar bases. There's no radar bases up there. Because they had been to the Air Force. The Air Force, we don't have any radar bases up there. Well, they didn't. Yeah, it was the Atomic Energy Commission. About 1952-ish, the Atomic Energy Commission gave them to the Air Force. That's right. You run them. Yeah. So, it wasn't the Air Forces until 52. So, they were correct. They did have Air Force bases. And certainly not in 48, the Atomic Energy Commission did. And there were actually two El Vado ones. There was one down by the dam. And the hydroelectric plant, which they did tap into some of that power. And then 50-something-ish, they built the one that we can all walk through today. So, you have all this radar data, this back and forth with this politician. Fight fighters, range fighters. Right. Yeah. And someone thinks that that's really important enough to break into this politician's house and steal. Not half. It's the half. Into the office of the Capitol. Wild. Yeah. It's a place to break into. It is. Pretty desperate. Well, pretty ballsy. Pretty ballsy. And they don't take anything except for. The envelope. The envelope. Yeah, the package. They didn't take the document. With your name and your information, essentially. Right. Okay. So, Scott gets home from a trip, and his house has been broken into. The house that you were at. Yep. This was before we were together. Not long before, but. So, he gets home. He gets home, and the house has been broken into. Police report, tobacco. Filled out the police report, had the police come, and the police said, is there anything missing? Now, because, it's a long story, but he was gifted a bunch of Budweiser beer, which he drank at the time. He had numerous cases of Budweiser beer sitting up against next to the refrigerator. He had several hundred dollars laying on the counter. On the kitchen counter. And they took it. They took neither of those. So, if they were kids, the beer would have gone. The beer would be gone, yeah. You know, the money would be gone. Easy. Yeah. The only thing that was missing in the whole house was in a small little cupboard in the living room was some photos of the crash site. Of all of Aztec. In sequential order, October 89, da-da-da-da-da, all the way up to current. And that was the only thing. Doors were left wide open. That was it. There's a message there. Yeah, of course. Then, they, now back at the Capitol building, they actually have a camera. Surveillance that caught the picture. And who broke in to the Capitol? Uh, ****. Wow. Yeah. They have it on camera. Steals the envelope to figure out who was. Who's feeding. Who's communicating with this politician. Yeah. And then goes to your house and takes some more evidence. Well, we don't know that part. Well. The second part, we don't know. But it happens afterwards. They took the photos. Yeah. Not the negatives. Not the negatives. Right. Okay. So, just a message. Lazy thief. Sure. Don't get them to process. Yeah. Just take the rolls. Okay. And so, now you're fueled by this. Clearly, you get this, you know, they, I suppose the politician is the one who informed you on, on who this was. Yep. What's your reaction to that? Well, angry, betrayed, but not surprised. Hmm. You know, after I had to stop and think about it. Um, so you have this information now. What are you thinking? You're thinking, this is it. I'm going to break this case wide open. I'm going to share that there is a CIA spook who is infiltrating. You know, and, and trying to debunk this case, but who's actually, you know, clearly doing criminal activity. It made me work harder. Yeah. Made you work pretty hard. Um. And this is, again, someone who took forever to ever actually go out to the crash site. Yeah. So, as far as this goes, you, you, you, you, you catch wind of this by the politician that you're in touch with. Yeah. Who tells you, hey, we got this, this person on camera. You're thinking, oh, this is going to break the case wide open. Let's blow this up. Why didn't you come forward with this story? Uh, the politician. So what did he say? We don't talk about it. We don't talk about this. He said, you can't run this story. Don't run it. Not once, but twice. He told me. He told you twice. What were your feelings about that? And I think there was some pushback maybe from above. Right. So, um, in your opinion was on official duty. Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So you got warded off. You got told, let this one go. And that's just so unfortunate because had that politician cooperated with you, that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt, at least some agency's involvement in wanting to cover this up. That's another reason I don't think we'll ever have disclosure. Is the interagency. Exactly. Uh, compartmentalization. Yep. Them not talking to each other. Like the CIA might be fighting itself, right? Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Air Force might be fighting themselves. Do you know, where do you want to start? What other? Alphabet Company. you want to go to. Sure. The enemy within. Yeah. And how do you, how do you lie to the public, the taxpayers for 75 years and say, well, Roswell didn't happen. Aztec was a hoax. Kecksburg never happened. Paradise Valley didn't happen. You need a scapegoat. Yeah, absolutely. That's what you need. Yeah. That's what they need to blame somebody. And right now there's no one to blame. You'd have to blame, you'd have to blame a department that no longer exists, that everybody's dead. That's who you blame. They have no wife. They have no children. Exactly. Yeah. Which isn't the case. I'm sure there's too many, too many hands in the pot. Yeah. Okay. Well, I'm glad. Thank you for sharing that. I'm glad that you did share that because that for me is a very strong piece of evidence that shows that this is an important case. Yeah. And people do care about this. If you look at how large, the craft was, 200 people total working on removing it either from a desk or boots on the ground. This, you know, Roswell was a debris field, kind of like an airplane crash scene. You take an airplane when it crashes, you can take it like a pegboard and put it back together and find out where the failure was or where the engine fell off, whatever. You can't do that with a flying saucer because where's this piece of the puzzle go? Aztec, they got a pretty good piece. They got the whole puzzle. Less of a porthole that had a hole in it. Yeah. Is there another crash that you guys would hold in just as, if not as high, but maybe close to as high regard as Aztec, like Kingman or Kecksburg? Kecksburg would be the one? Yep. Do you think there's enough documentation there to prove Kecksburg and enough witness testimony? Yeah. Stan Gordon is an amazing researcher. And I saw Kecksburg when I was a kid. I saw it that night. You saw the craft? Yeah. I saw whatever flew over Pittsburgh. Really? Yeah. My godmother and I, Jean Hartman, who just passed a couple of years ago, she was taking care of me because my parents had some, something going on that night, probably PTA or probably negotiating to get me back into school, you know? Sure. I was a, I wasn't a great kid. So Jean and I were standing at the corner of Bingham Street and Virginia Avenue in Mount Washington. Pennsylvania. Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, just right in the city limits. And she saw this big bright light going up and drew it to my attention and said, my god, Scotty, look at that. And we saw it go up and up and up. And then it made that famous turn. And if you take an aerial map today and I said, we were standing here and here's where it went and here's where it turned. And follow that down, it goes right to Kecksburg. Ha. Now, I didn't think much of it. I thought shooting star, but awfully low. And he was a little boy. Yeah, I'm a little kid. And she is panicking because she thought it was a Nike missile launch. Wow. And Pittsburgh had three or four, maybe five Nike missile bases. We used to play at one when it was shut down in Heidelberg. To me, that, so what? Well, that meant we had an inbound Soviet problem. There was still Cold War energy. Oh, the height of it. Oh, yeah. The height of it. And she was really distraught. She said, oh, I don't like this. I don't like that. Oh, I don't like that. Okay, whatever. Wow. So, you've got a firsthand connection to Kecksburg. What it actually was, we don't really know, but that something did happen, you know. They kept it. Well, to this day, Suzanne and I have been down to Maxwell. And just every couple of years, I'll say, hey, can I have the historical report of the 606 or the 4602? Those are the crash retrieval divisions. Yeah, or the 1006 out of that. And the Air Force Base, can I have their historical report? It's like, no. Go away. Yeah. The ones, the ones you were told don't really exist. Can I fill out the paperwork? No. Just, you're not going to get them. Yeah. Can I get the overview? No. And the end, the recovery groups had an office in Pittsburgh. Yeah. At the Greater Pittsburgh Air Force. You would have had to, to be there that quickly, right? Oh, yeah. They were there like 45 minutes. Yeah, which there's, and unless you were in the vicinity, there's no way you're getting there at 45 minutes. No. There's no Air Force. nearby. There's no base of anything nearby. That's one of the big mysteries of Kecksburg, though. Oh, it is. That's like one of the big debunks, I think, as well. A lot of people will cite that, like, there's no way that the military could have gotten there in that amount of time, but then, you know, you find out. They got to Aztec in a couple hours. Yeah, yeah, they did. For me, I would have to say, I think, Travis Walton, I interviewed him 20-some years ago before he really interviewed with many people, and I had a similar experience. I saw your discussion about him, and I had a very similar experience. He was very nervous about getting up and speaking. He drove all the way with his son, and you could just see he was rattled, and I said, you don't have to do this. You know, he was going to speak for the symposium, and I said, what if we just got two chairs, and you and I just sat down and talked, and we won't go anywhere. The chair is yours. You don't have to go anywhere. You're not ready to go, and it was so powerful to watch him how he was nervous getting up there. We sat down, and we just started talking, and the minute he started to think about it, you could see his whole body and face and expression. You could see he was there. It's like he goes into a trance. Exactly. After he was done with that, he was just fine, and we've been to several conferences, and he's spoken since then, and, you know, and we've spoken at the same ones or visited with him. We actually went to visit him years ago in Snowflake. Yeah. Cute town. And I found that he now, I think, has come to a place. I think he was so young when that happened and had so little life experience that he had nothing to draw upon. As he matured, I think he was able to do some healing. That's my opinion. That's what it feels like to me as well. Yeah. I think he was able to do some healing. Although, I will say this, and this is a big deal to me, I see people sometimes that are in a position of power, and I really feel personally that Travis was put in positions by people that came supposedly to help him, and they damaged him, made his experience worse. Well, I mean, like the Hollywood movie. Yeah. Oh, the Hollywood movie. But before that, some of the, even the organizations that came to help him, wanted to perpetuate that I, you know, I did this, I did that. Right. Rather than, let's help him. Sure. And I, that really bothers me. I think it jaded him a little bit too. And I don't blame him. Yeah. From the community, you know. And it should. I mean, that's the nature of dealing with experiencers or people in this, you know, whole topic is there is a fine line, and I'm sure you know this as tremendously, sort of respectful researchers. There's that fine line of being caring, wanting to get a story out, and being exploitative. That's, and it's not always easy. But I think that there are people that have no, no conscience whatsoever. There definitely are. There definitely are, who just churn out, you know, things like this. The other one, the other two that I really think are very compelling are Betty and Barney Hill. And I want to have a disclaimer. It's a fabulous story. Um, in our book, inadvertently, we put Vermont instead of New Hampshire. They were from, it's not my birthday that it happened. I mean, we know this story. And please, we are so sorry about that. But that is a very compelling story. Again, so interesting. And the third one is, um, Frank Fraschino's work on, um, uh, Flatwood Monster. Which, again, I don't really know. I don't know what actually happened. I don't know much about it. It's a very interesting story. And Frank has done some really fabulous research. I mean, he is intense. Yeah. I'll look into it. But I, I really, it's, it's in the West Virginia area. We actually know some people that actually, uh, saw it when they were little. And, uh, I, I don't really know what actually happened, but he's done some great research and something certainly happened. He was highly praised to the day he died by Frank, uh, Stanton Friedman. Wow. Stanton was like, this research is incredible. Really? Wow. That's, that's definitely high praise. So those are, those are three that in my mind, a lot of really good ones, but those are three that just, they don't always get all the attention, but, um, they get some, but I mean. Well, and what's, what's one story that you just don't give any credence to? Just one. I don't want to put you on the spot or put you to bed. No, no, you're not at all. Okay. So instead, let me rephrase this. Um, what's one that you're sort of a lower conviction on? I, I. I don't know if I can answer that personally, because Aztec has run through the ringer so bad, I'd be a hypocrite by any means. Well, on that, there is the 2017 MJ-12 leak. Oh, on Aztec. That mentions Aztec, so why not that one? Because that one's completely BS. Well, that's a funny story. Can I tell that real quick? Yeah, yeah. I get a phone call. Stanton Friedman and I both have birthdays in July. So we would always call each other on each other's birthday. And he calls me, and, you know, it was the same old thing. Hey, kid, you know, how you doing? Happy birthday. And right after that, he said, have you seen the new Majestic-12 documents? They mention Aztec. Oh, boy, here we go. I said, no, Stanton. He goes, well, I got them right here. I'll make copies and get them off to you Monday. I said, okay. So they show up, and Suzanne and I sit at the dining room table. We're reading through them. And I get halfway through it. I'm like, oh, jeez. Sci-fi story. Yeah. Campfire. No, campfire story. Campfire story. So I call. We get done reading them. I call Bill Steinman. I said, hey, do you know those new Majestic-12 documents that mention Aztec? Bill's like, oh, here we go again. I said, you want a copy of them? So I go to work and make copies and put them in an envelope and send them off to Bill. And he and I had a habit of calling. Yeah. Yeah. We'd see each other at night when we were walking our dogs. And so I'm out there walking. I forget which one. And the phone rings. It's Bill. Hey, read those documents. I said, what do you think? He said, they're bullshit. Pretty obvious, especially if you know anything about the Aztec case. And they had taken, and he didn't catch it until I told him. And then he read it real quick. He's like, yeah, this is crap. They went and copied. And pasted a paragraph out of his book. Which was wrong. That was wrong. It had the wrong river. Yeah. He's talking about the object flew over the Archuleta Ranch near the, what do they call it? Animas River? And it's the Navajo River. So he made a mistake in his book. Yeah, kind of like we did with Vermont. And that's the paragraph that they cited and put into as an official. An amazing book over. There are 500 pages that's incredibly well-researched. And they picked a one paragraph. What are the odds? There was some divine intervention there. I'm sorry. Or maybe deliberate. Well, it could be. Who knows? Yeah. So, you know, he's laughing. We're walking the dogs and he's laughing. He said, oh, he didn't even catch that. I said, well, you scanned it. You know, that's good. There were some other really bad mistakes. Yeah, misspelling. Misspelling on other records that were just cut and copied again, too. Yeah. And then they, uh. They took some comments that Suzanne and I made when we spoke at Baltimore, Maryland. I mean, perbatum. Mm. Mm. And that was over the, the, um, writings of, uh, ASTEC. Remember that? The ones we were talking about earlier? Yeah, they just copy pasted what you guys said. With Friedman. Yeah. I just copied. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. They copied and pasted that. I always, I tune that, I try to tune that stuff out. Well, there we go. We, we successfully debunked something. Yeah. So, uh, if, you know. And anybody. Anybody that doesn't, isn't consistent and moving. I mean, there's such a thing as telling the best that you know to this point. Yeah. And then I have a better understanding today than I did yesterday. Yeah. Here's the correction. But somebody whose story, and we've seen it, changes like the wind remarkably. And you honestly stand there and think, am I losing my mind? Yeah. I thought they just said this. Um, when I see that. Yeah. I have great concern. Yeah. Because I think it, it dilutes everybody's work. I think so too. Yeah. And that's, again, why I'm so thankful that you guys exist. Because you really are the epitome of research when it comes to this stuff. Like, it, it, there aren't very many researchers out there that are cut from your cloth. And I think, uh, I think you guys are just really inspirational in how to approach this topic. You've been incredibly open and incredibly, um, focused, driven, but also leveled. Level-headed through the entire thing. Well, thank you for saying that. Thank you. It's, and people need to know that, I think, because, you know, again, we spoke about this last night. UFO researcher sounds like a bit of an oxymoron. You're like, you know, how do you, how do you research a UFO if you don't have one? And, and you've, you've clearly demonstrated how to research a UFO case. Um, and it ain't easy. No. Um, I want to talk about one last thing. Sure. Before we get going here. Um, the gadget. The gadget. You refer to it as the gadget in your book. Yep. And I was lucky enough to hold this gadget to, to see it in person. I hope that's okay that I divulged that. Oh, yeah. You know, it's going to show up in, I think, Jesse's work as well. And, um, we were very excited about this and, and this is something prior to shooting Jesse's, um, documentary. Uh, we were on a lot of phone calls back and forth and a lot of, because we didn't know each other. We didn't, you know, and you guys had to feel out, who are we dealing with? You know, after dealing with the amount of, uh, detractors and debunkers and all this and hoaxers and whatnot, who are these guys and what are their intentions? So I totally get being, you know, reluctant. We spent 11 hours on Zoom. Yeah. We did. Yeah. Each time we got off, we could tell it was, we were getting closer. That's right. But it was a time really. It was a time really well spent. I think so. And I'm grateful that, um, that you, you and Jesse are the people that you are and, uh, the whole team, it was just an honor. Yeah. And the honor is mine too. And, and, you know, getting to hang out with those guys, you know, uh, whether it's JP or Arthur or Brian or any of the, uh, the other crew, it was just so fun hanging out with all these guys and, and sort of, uh, living through, you know, this experience together, I think it was, it was great. Um, but yeah, one of the highlights was this little gadget. Um, if I were to describe this to you, I would say it looks like a blue marble. Yeah. Like a glass blue, dark blue glass marble. Kind of cobalt colored. Yeah. Yeah. Much like a jacket almost. Yeah. As, um, and so, um, where did you find this first of all, and what came of it? We, we, Randy Barnes and I, again, my, my cohort in crime on Aztec, I think I mentioned earlier, he's passed too. This is why. This is the final book. Our, our Aztec group has gone from this to about like that. Well, hopefully it just goes back to this. Well, we hope. You know, we hope. Um. I'm not gonna let it shrink. Yeah, there you go. Randy and I decided one night over a beer that the Aztec crash site needed to be mapped. And I don't mean USGS map, I mean, gridded that every inch of that Mesa was searched. So I went out and rented two very high powered metal detectors and, and high tech for, for the timeframe. It was '99 or 2000, it was wintertime, so it could have been, you know. December. December, January. It wasn't February or March because we were, they had a symposium coming up. And uh, we, you know, you, you being at the crash site, you can't go south or you'll fall off the, the face. So I said, I'll take the west side and a little bit north. You take a little bit of the north and a little bit east, which is about equal territory or equal real estate. So I, I don't know, we were probably into it not more than five or 10 minutes and he got a hit. And he says, hey, come over here and see if your metal detector picks up, and it was a big hit, what I hit. So I go over and sure enough, I had about the same hit. And as I say in the book, we're such great researchers, we took everything to the crash site that day. Except for a digging tool. Not expecting really to find it. Well, I don't know what we were thinking. We had enough food to feed an army and enough bottled water to feed an army. So we're down on our hands and knees, like two puppies were digging through the silt and sure enough, you know, about that far down, we find this ball. And that's what was making the metal detector go off. Yeah. But you know, in theory it should, I mean, it looks like glass. Yeah, right. It looks like it's, it's transparent. Translucent. Yeah. What? Yeah. How is that? How is there any metal in this thing? Well, here's the analysis. There actually is. Well, this is the older now. Well, but only two didn't show up. So we kind of laugh about it. We figured some kid was out there, buried his toy, had no concept of extraterrestrial or whatever. And maybe still don't to this day. We'll find out. Randy says, here, you take it. You collect all that stuff back in North Carolina. So I took it home and it went into a drawer for many years. And when we started on this book about a year and a half, two years ago, oh no, three years ago, I took it out and she and I put it in a bank safety deposit box. Because now we're thinking, let's have it analyzed and see what this marble is. And we drag it out. When we're getting to that part of the book, which you can see is pretty far back, and we take it to two guys. places in our town and have it analyzed. And one is a high dollar pawn shop where they test gold coins and silver coins to make sure they're not plated or fake. Sure. To analyze them. Yeah. And it, both times came up, it contains gold, rhodium, iridium, iron, zinc, titanium, and lead. So there's a couple things on there that'll hit. And you look at this thing and you're thinking, it's 100% made of glass. Right. Because it's almost like it's shiny on the outside with like a metallic coating kind of, wouldn't you say? Right, yeah. It's like a peery marble. Yeah. So you can see not completely through it. But light goes through it. And then there's times that it almost illuminates. And it's kind of changes colors. It's just hard, very hard to figure out. Yeah, it's a very pretty, beautiful object. It's beautiful. Clearly not natural. No. Too round to be. And very smooth. Very smooth. So we took it and had it x-rayed to see, you know. And there is a core. There's a core. Yeah. But it's little specks. Yeah. That are in it. As we get deeper in the x-rays, it's a hexagonal core. There we go. Yeah. That's under more power. It looks like a hexagon. And you obviously can't determine what's in that core, but it's what is the best guess of what the concentration of that is in that core? Well, in order to assess that, what we decided to do was have it further analyzed. I see. And we started looking around at different places, different labs, labs, and places to take it to. And what we kept coming up with was everyone wanted to do some type of invasive. Cut it in half or take a chunk out of it. We don't know what it is. And so, they're really. It would be dangerous to do that one thing. Dangerous, yeah, because you might lose. It might. The value. Yeah, exactly. And this is a one-of. Whatever it is. It might be something. It might not be. It might be a kid's toy. So, we. Again, this took us, oh my goodness, probably nine, ten months. And before we found someone that said that they could do a series of tests to further look at it and without them being invasive. And so, we went to the lab and it was a physics professor that helped us. And he analyzed it. And instead of. It ended up having, instead of what were the elements changing? Rhodium. Rhodium and iridium. The machine that we were testing it on is looking for precious metals. And because it can't understand what that is, it defaults to whatever close element. And that would be rhodium and iridium, which are basically found on meteors. So, that would really make a big question mark. But we can now rule that out because that was the default on the machine. It was like, I don't know what it is, so here's what it is. Instead, there's arsenic. Arsenic, a lot of arsenic. Wild. Yeah. Which really, you know, I guess that helps to tell us that it's not extraterrestrial, but why is it at the site and why would you have those elements? Gold, arsenic? Gold's still present, though. So, that's your thing. It's like, we don't have proof that this isn't extraterrestrial based on arsenic. No. Because those elements exist outside of the Earth as well. Oh, they do. They do. And that's an important factor that we learned while we were there is, when people say this or that is, oh, this is extraterrestrial and this isn't, every single element is found everywhere. Yeah, it's on the periodic table. Right. It's the amount. And the layering of the atomic structure, the atoms. Yeah. And that was a very interesting, I wasn't aware of that, and that was really helpful for us to know. Yeah, like the, you know, classic arts parts and the bismuth and the layering of that. Right. You know, that determines that it's something that was man-made that we can't do. I would love to know how you can make what it is I held in my hand out of the elements that are listed there. It just doesn't make sense. It doesn't. And then again, why was it found on a Mesa, 11 miles out in the middle of nowhere? And even creepier. Why was it found exactly where the bodies were laying? Yeah. I mean, we're talking inches away, you know. He is furthering the tests. Yeah. And there are some tests that take months to do. So the ones that we could have tested, we have. Yeah. And now? And now we're just waiting for it. So exciting. I don't know. Have you ever seen, is it Men in Black 2? Mm-hmm. Remember the cat? Oh, yeah. It had the universe. It was like Orion. Yeah. As soon as I saw that, my mind shot straight back to that cat. I was like, what if that's our universe right now? Or the one next to us. Yeah, that's right. One thing, though, that I think is important, too, though, is it would be very interesting if it was extraterrestrial. Yeah. If it's not. Scott and I have been like this. Yeah. On every piece of information that's come to us. Somebody brings us a lead. It takes us two or three years to fully check it out. Yeah, vet it. So that's exactly it. So whether it is or isn't, be nice if it was, but if it isn't, that does not change our research. That's right. And really, that's where we have to remain always in here. And again, as you said earlier, whether we prove it is or isn't, it's proving it that's the fact. And so, if this is a bonus, I mean, this just happens to be, the gadget happens to be one thing out of thousands of hours of research that other people are enjoying with us. We've been through this lots and lots of times before. Yeah, it just happens to be of a sort of magical quality and a very easy, tangible. That's right. mystical item, right? Which is very enticing. It is. I'm sure to you, I'm sure to others, but I know how reluctant you were in even wanting to talk about this prior to the book. And I'm sure you debated even putting it in the book. We did. We did. Because of the attachment that people will have to it if it comes back as normal. Yeah. Sure. And what that might. This proves it or this doesn't. Exactly. Oh, these guys, they just found a marble and said it was aliens or whatever. You know, like, that's not what you wanted. It's not what you wanted out there. So even putting this out there, you know, for you, I'm sure it was a big step. But then having it analyzed, and I mean, with the elements that's in it, how can you not include it at this point? Right. No, you're right. Far too strange. It's something different anyway. We know that. Has the physicist you worked with ever seen anything like that? No. No. Actually, each one of the physicists and scientists that we spoke to, none of them could give an explanation. None of them. To the composition of what? That's so wild. And one of the labs in North Carolina that we took it to, while the test was being run and the results were starting to come out, he was looking at it, looking at me, and he says, where's this come from? Roswell? And we had never mentioned anything about a connection to possibly being extraterrestrial. Whoa. And I just laughed. I said, no. So. Well, I want to thank you guys for sharing that with me, and thank you for letting me hold this little piece. Wash your hands. It's awesome. I know that now. I don't remember washing my hands before touching it because I didn't want to dirty it. Yeah. Thank you guys for everything. Thanks for being such an amazing duo in this quest for the truth and, you know, working your butts off and I mean, the money you've poured in, the time you've poured in, the energy you've poured in, it just really, really, really is appreciated by people like me. And I hope that, you know, myself, Jesse, and everybody else who researches this shines a little bit more light on your work and allows more people to get a hold of it, to see it, to research it for themselves. You guys have done a tremendous job. Well, we hope somebody. We're not going to do book four. We have nobody alive yet or still that we can call on, and I don't want to regurgitate stuff from 20, 30 years ago. Maybe there's another project out there for us. I don't know. Yeah. Who knows? Highly suggest checking this book out if you're interested in learning about some history in New Mexico. It is a fascinating read. If you want to take it as fiction, take it as fiction, and we'll see you on the other side. We'll see how you feel about it once you're done reading it. I'd like to encourage people that the Aztec town may be having a symposium again. Kind of got chased off by politicians in years past. That's not fair, but it wasn't a popular subject. We have. Some new politicians in town. You met one of them. Yeah. And I think they're looking at the success Roswell has and saying, why aren't we part of that? We have people that email us from Germany, Luxembourg, Spain. Hey, we're coming to the States. We want to go to the Aztec crash site. And we set them up with either somebody that will give them a tour or say, okay, go to the information center, perhaps. Where you and I went. They're missing a huge opportunity. Well, plus, it's a good, solid case. It is. And there's a beautiful experience to go there. You were there, you know. Yeah. And so much to learn. And it's right, you know, in the United States. Easy access. Yeah. Yeah, it's not this unknown place that you're going to like the Roswell. Nobody really is sure exactly where it went down. This is like. No, this is the exact spot. Whatever crash, right? Yeah, that's a rare thing, I think, in all of crash retrieval stuff, like to have the exact location. I will say this, too. On our website, if you ever are going to do this on a regular basis and you need the GPS or you need information. It's all there. It's all on the website. Or just email me. Okay. There's a little place you can email me and I'll just send you out information or let you know. Be careful what you wish for. Well, but I think it's important. Your inbox might be blown up after this. Most important of all of this is that this information is getting out above and beyond, that the truth is getting out, and that, you know, long after we're gone, that information will be a foundation. And so more people going there is just fine. And if I've got to be up answering emails, then that's kind of how it goes. I do also want to mention, and you brought up a good point, there are a total of six Aztec books on the market. Steinman's original, or Steinman's only, Scully's book, Chris Evans, which we didn't even talk about today. It's true. He did a heck of a good book on Aztec. Sadly, he died. Mysteriously also. Hmm? A little mysteriously. Very mysteriously died on his way to our house. You know that, right? Yeah, and he was going to deliver something to you. Yeah. There are three books, the Aztec incident, the Aztec UFO incident, and then the new one that came to Earth in Aztec, New Mexico, revealed the recovery of a UFO. All of those books have an amazing amount of good information. I think Scully's book is a must. I think they're all a must. Yeah. If people are thinking of going to the crash site, get educated as much as you can. There's good information. There's good information in all the books. And if you're going and you're not into the topic, you'll enjoy the beauty, won't you? Yeah. It's absolutely beautiful. Just amazing. I've got to agree with that. I have husband and wife teams that email us and say, yeah, my wife wasn't really into it, but I had to drag her away and put her in the car because this is so amazing. And just take good hiking boots. Yeah. And some water. And water. Boots and water. Thank you, guys. Thank you. I appreciate you both. Scott, Suzanne, I love you both. Thank you for doing this. And coming out here and chatting with me. Thank you. Thank you.