The Cost War Charges Later | JP Dinnell | Ep. 457

How much time throughout the day is your phone gold bananas? How do you structure your work? Do you hard block yourself when you do focus work? It short periods of time with break intervals in between or you just take it as it comes. I try to do the hard schedule with like little breaks, like, okay, I'm going to go help a man with the kids or something because we homeschool our daughters. So me being able to go do that with them for 15-20 minutes is fun. It's pretty dope. Which when I say help, it's just me sitting with a man and talking with the kids. It gives a program that we have them through, like, you don't have to. It's all online based, so they go at their own pace and they, them and their peers would have just graduated from third grade, but the girls are already doing tenth grade work, which is pretty cool. It's pretty awesome. But to answer your question, there are days that I just have to go with it and take it. Like, I'll look at my calendar. I'm like, cool. I have, I have four hours of calls set up back to back. Our team is really good at trying not to do that, but sometimes if that's a client's only option. And so it's like, hey, can you push this one to start instead of out one p.m., can you put it at 115 so I can have a 15-minute break to use the restroom, grab something drink, a snack. Because I just came off of two one hour back to back zooms where I'm ending one at 11.59, closing it out, opening up the next zoom link, and then ready for the next one. And just p.m. cups under tables and stuff. No, I just like to live my life dehydrated, so I don't have to use a restroom the other day. Right. So that's the forward thinking planning, that's what I'm talking about. What we used to do in the teens, and then you get out and you know, one of my buddies, Austin Little, he noticed that one time we were on a trip together, actually going down to Mexico and he's very aware of like everything. Like his situational awareness is unreal, he would have been a good team guy just from just everything in his mind and mentally and he's like, you don't, unless you're not drinking a lot of water, he's like, is that by design or do you just forget? First off, that's a weird comment from one dude to another dude. Mind your business. You know, I'll drink, why are you watching me so much? Well, if we weren't such good friends, I definitely would have been like, they'd mind your own business, but we're like really close and, and I also know like Austin's heart posture is like, he was like concerned, like, hey, you're not drinking any water. And I was thinking about, I was like, I just think from years of just kind of being used to being dehydrated, I'm just used to it and it doesn't affect me. And I said, but here's like, here's what's kind of cool about it. We go down to Mexico, everyone from flying and it's hot and humid and on the bus and everyone's like dying for water. I'm good. And you're in Mexico. So nobody wants to drink the water until you're at the resort and you get the bottle water. Monty Zoom is revenge. I believe they called it. Yeah. I had that in high school. We're doing missionary work down in Mexico, building houses for the homeless and overspring break. Got that. That was horrific a journey. We'll just say that. Yeah. Yeah. How long do you think you can work at that pace and do you enjoy it? So I enjoy it. How long can I work at that and how long do I want to work at that? I think you're two different things because I love what we do at echelon front like man, the opportunity to do that. Jocle on life gave me nine and a half years ago. Has it been that it's been nine and a half years that I came actually October. Yeah. So yeah, October will be 10 years of the first, um, muster that I went to. And, uh, October of 2017 was the very first muster that Jocle on life did. I went there just to check it out. Jocle was like, Hey, come check out what we have going on. Um, you know, gave me a call and he was like, Hey, we might be needing to bring on another instructor. We'd love for you to come see what we have going on. Um, well, that whole story is cool. We can get into later if you want. Um, I had another opportunity. And at the time, my wife and I were in a really bad financial spot. And I just needed, I needed anything for work. Isn't it fun to be in those spots? Yes. I have lived for years in those spots. I remember you talking about that on Jocle's podcast and in your book as well. And just from your stories of me, and I think that's, it's good for people to have to like work through those things and really endure. And at the end of the day, that's life. I mean, yeah, it's, it's not all. It's going to happen. I don't care who the values and rainbows. Yeah. Also, if it was a magical values and rainbows, I don't think you could appreciate it unless you really, you wouldn't. I mean, I remember legitimately when I first joined the Navy floating paper checks on a Friday to pay for groceries, you know, hoping because, you know, the first would be like the second that are like a Tuesday, because we know, first of the 15th is on Monday. You're getting paid Friday, baby. Yes. Yes. Many times when I was younger than the Navy and not financially responsible, I would look at my bank account and say, all right, cool. There's enough for the gas pump to authorize it. And it was calculated. Cool. This is what is going to cost for me to fill up my tank. And then I'm going to pay the overdraft fee, but I need, I need gas until we get paid. So I was in a very similar situation like that. I have a screenshot on my phone where, at the time, a man and I had 17 cents total and about $100,000 worth of credit card debt. And I was potentially going to go overseas and contract for 70 days, $1,000 a day, which is life changing. Yeah. Life changing at that moment. And so even now, like, I understand how much money that is, that's really good money. And I was going to be leaving on the same day that the mustard started. Today's episode is brought to you by Black Rifle Coffee. America's 250th birthday is here. Now for a lot of companies, that means they suddenly discovered patriotism. But for Black Rifle Coffee, it's just another day doing what they do every day. Since the beginning, VRCC has proudly celebrated America, her military, her flag, and the communities that keep this country moving forward. Not because it's popular, but because it's who they are. Every bag, every box, every can, purchased, help support the communities that make America stronger. This summer, they're rolling out limited edition, red, white and blue, commemorative coffee bag featuring just black, beyond black, in spirit of 76. Same great coffee, same great mission. For early mornings, long days, and the moments when you get a chance to appreciate the freedoms we often take for granted. Because patriotism isn't about a logo or a slogan. It's about appreciating the freedoms we enjoy every single day. Find the commemorative bags now at Walmart or your local grocery store, Black Rifle Coffee Shop, or online at blackriflecoffee.com. Veteran founded American Roasted. This is America's Coffee, back to the show. And you made the right call. I did. I did. And I remember talking to Jaco and telling him, because he's like, "Yeah, we'd love for you to come and see what life and I have, what we do at Aschelon Front." He knew that I read the book. I was listening to the podcast. I read a stream ownership, and we'll talk about that later. It restored my marriage. So I was a believer in these principles, and I remember how they helped their task unit. I had also applied them to business when I got out, but not to my family. And then applied them to my family and got my marriage back. So I already knew, yes, I know these things work in business and in life. And I just knew that what Jaco and life had created was incredible. And it was just at the beginning. And so I called my wife and I said, "Hey," because I told Jaco, I said, "Hey, man, I'm so so head overseas for a contracting gig, but I'd love to be there." And part of me coming out there was to sit and talk with them about possibly coming on as the first instructor. Because Jaco said, "Hey, we're getting to the point where we're actually having to turn down gigs. We've increased our pricing. We're still having to turn them down. We want to grow this." And I said, "Okay," and I told him my situation, and Jaco said, "Well, I would never ask you to do something that would take money away from your family." And that's who Jaco is. Like, he is the most selfless person, Jaco and life are two of the most selfless people I've ever gotten to work with. They want their people to win more than they want to win themselves. It's a rare thing. It's a rare thing, man. And with, when that's genuine, not just playing the Instagram hashtag, "Let Your People Win." You know, a biblical thing that I've always had my parents instill into us and believed to be true is, you can see somebody, you can see who somebody is by the fruits. And I know I didn't just quote the actual scripture, but the big old principle is like, the fruits that somebody produces, that's who they are. It's not what they say and they talk about, but like, you know, the fruits or their marriage, you know, the friends and like, are they actually helping people? And I knew Jaco and life were helping people, and I knew that they would, they've always had my back. I went through SKT with life, Sastone, and Andrew Paul. Those three men helped me become a young man. You did a lot of time with them. Yes. [BLANK_AUDIO] I mean, lay for 24 years. - Well, and for people listening, they might think, I'm sure you get this one as well. Hey, I have a buddy or a brother or an uncle who was a team guy, do you know Bob? And I've just started saying, "Bob's fantastic." It was a great dude, because what I don't wanna have to do is explain to people in person, the community is very small, but also very large. You only know the people that you work with, but there's a churn in the people that you work with as well. - Your experience is being with those people for so many years at A-Typical. - It is, it is. So I say all that and say, like I've also been with Jocco since 2005, when he took over as a task unit commander, did our, you know, work up deployment to Ramadi, and then I went to trade it and work with them, and then he retired. - Yeah, a little bit of stuff in between then. - Yes, a little bit. (laughing) And so like, I- - A little bit of time as an instructor at the center. - We'll talk about that later. If you wanna talk about a leadership failure on my part, we can dive into that. So I, I say all that say is like I knew their intent, and I know that I could trust them with anything. And, and Jocco being Jocco says, hey, talk to your wife Amanda, and see what she has to say, which I also really respected, because you being married and have been married before, like you know how important it is to have alignment with your wife. And untenable if you don't. If you extend the calendar out long enough, it's gonna come crashing apart. And that, which we will talk about later, is what led me to Amanda serving me divorce papers. And so, I call Amanda and I tell her the situation. And, you know, my wife is absolutely amazing. Just always been in my corner, even during times that she probably should not have, because of just the man I was not being at that time. And, but now we're in a good spot. And, I tell her the situation, and she said, you know Jocco and life will always take care of you and tell you the truth. It goes, this is, this is an easy answer, babe. I said, okay. I said, I don't, I was like, but we don't have the money to get to San Diego. And she goes, you'll figure it out. I'm like, okay. And so there's more to that conversation, obviously. Called another buddy who was never in the military, but law enforcement, business, pretty successful. And I was like, hey, I just want to bounce something off of you. He goes, dude, absolutely. He's like, you should go do that. Oh my, okay. Well, there's one other problem. I had already made a commitment to go teach, to help teach long-range shooting for my buddy, Steve Arian, with his, his company, he's working. It was teaching long-range shooting for hunters to help them be proficient and get ready for big hunts. And it was really fun. I loved it. Like, I love teaching shooting, especially long-range shooting. For sure. And to see like these guys who had never shot house 100 yards at the end of day one, like we're having them hit still consistently at 1,000 yards. And so that coffin is not to bring it back for hunting. And so I call him and I said, hey, bud, I have this opportunity, but I'm not going to be able to do the last part of the trip. When we get the new group in, you know, do you have another instructor that you could call? And he goes, yeah, he goes, man. But, you know, and he's running a tight business at the time, very small. And then he's like, I can get another guy. He goes, I won't be able to pay you your travel day 'cause I got to pay him his travel day to come up. And that's all I had budgeted. I'm like, no, don't pay me any of my travel days going there or back or whatever. I said, but thank you. And so I was already driving out to Texas from Mississippi for teaching. My one of my best friends, Dan Hoddleman and his wife Rebekah, were like, hey, you can just stay with us, you know? Stay with us after that and then fly to San Diego. So I was able to scrounge up enough hotel points. I'm sorry, airline points to get a flight from Giles Fort Worth area to San Diego. Booked it, sent the screenshot to Jocco. And I'm like, I don't know where I'm gonna stay. I don't know how I'm gonna get to and from this event, but have buddies in San Diego, I can borrow a car, I can sleep on couches, man, I'll sleep on the beach. Like, I just, I wanna go be a part of this. And as soon as I sent that confirmation, Jocco's like, Roger sending you an email, connecting with Jamie who's helping with our operations. At the time, Jamie was just helping build the muster, Jamie Cochran, helping Leif and Jocco with booking and events and, you know, started off very part time and now was a full time employee. And Jocco sends an email and says, Jamie, this is JP to know, was with us into your bruiser. He's coming to the muster. Can you get him a hotel room with us at the event? And I'm like, oh, thank God. Problem solved. I, I, I, I, problem solved. Yeah. Which I'm like, cool, good, good to go. And, you know, at the time when I was teaching other shooting on the side, I'd started this apparel line. Never settled apparel. Very small, just for when I was teaching shooting, guys wanted shirts and I'm like, okay, cool. Like, I'll do that. Well, I had enough money in the, um, was it PayPal? Yeah, I had enough money and PayPal from a few shirts that had sold that I hadn't really touched yet. Then I was like, oh, I can use that for my Uber, because you can use PayPal to pay. I was like, cool, I can do that to that. I was like, I can at least get to the event. And then I was like, mapping it out. I'm like, oh, I could walk from the airport to downtown San Diego. Like, yes. I mean, depending on where it is. Well, I mean, it's in downtown. Like, I was like, no, I was walkable. I actually planned the route out. Yeah. I did my route recon, like pulled it up. I'm like, all right, cool. I'll just whatever I pack will be in like a big backpack or so I'm not dragging a roller bag. You just walk that whole running trail that goes along the bay. That's what I plan on doing. Yeah. I was like, all right, cool. And then, yeah. So I booked it and I went to the monster. And you know, Jocco and Lave didn't know I was in this position. You know, I was great to see Lave. I hadn't seen Lave since Chris had been killed. That was the last time I saw Lave. And you know, funny story is about what we do as humans. I was really nervous seeing Lave. What? In my mind, I thought Lave was mad at me for no reason. Because you couldn't pin anything that you thought you had done to that. No, which is ridiculous. Which as, you know, I think about that and I've shared that with other people, those are just little whispers and lies from the devil. Yeah. Like legitimately, I almost didn't go to San Diego to go the monster. I knew Jocco wanted me there. I thought because these little seeds have been planted of lies that Lave was mad at me about something that maybe I had done over the years. And I'm telling you right now, Lave had given no indications of that. My last interaction with them was when Chris Kyle had been killed and we're all together for that. Crazy. Yeah. Like crazy. Had I actually like held onto that and not had my wife be so encouraging to be like, and you know what's crazy is when she said that, she said, you know Jocco and Lave. Love you, we'll take care of you. We'll always tell you the truth. Like she said, both of their names because she knew how much they meant to me in my life. And I mean, like I said, Lave Seth and Andrew had been with me since I was 19 years old in SKT. And really good leaders in the SEAL teams. And so, you know, let's go to the very first monster and meet Jamie and she's awesome. And she's like, run around. I'm like, hey, what can I do to help? And so I'm kind of helping out with stuff. And she goes, hey, you know, my husband's the team guy. He's gonna be here. She's like, I don't know if you know him or not. His name's Flynn. I'm like, okay, yeah, I'm not sure. And so later that day, we're down in the hotel lobby. Everyone's meeting Jocco and Lave and they're all talking and everything. I'm just kind of like doing security 'cause that was the other thing they were supposed to have security it fell through. I was like, hey, I can help with security. Just I'm gonna be Jocco and Lave's handlers. Like if they need to get somewhere, Jamie, he just told me, I'll be the guy that's like, hey guys, I'm sorry. Get them from here to here. Just kind of watching scanning, looking the whole time. And so which I was happy to be able to do that 'cause I'm like, cool, I get to help Jocco and Lave. They let me come to this event that people paid a lot of money to come to. But I also know they wanted me to see what they did and they taught to make sure it's something that I wanted to do. But as soon as I get there, I meet Jamie. I'm like, well, she's awesome. She's super squared away. This is being run at a crazy high level. For the very first time doing something I was really impressed. Go downstairs, elevator opens up. I'm like, holy crap, I give Flynn a big hug. Well, I don't know Miss Flynn, I know him as Mr. Cochran. And he's like, Danelle. And Jamie's like, looking at us like, how do you guys know each other? He goes, this was instructed to know. And I'm like, kind of like, wonder like, what does that mean? And she's like, oh, you're the reason he missed our wedding. So that was really cool. Yeah, maybe it was his own choices. What did he say? These audio levels look not very good. Let me see. I'm wondering if you want to. Let me check the, you're good. JP talking to your mic. And so I say Flynn, okay, I lowered the gain a little bit. Okay, it's totally fine. It still allows me on the back end to increase the volume without having background noise. So it's totally fine. I'm glad you're paying attention, though. So first time in the history of, I mean, we're 20 minutes into it and you notice that, but it's like, whatever. I thought it was going to be like, hey, we're not recording anything. Oh, I've done that. I've done episodes with lens caps on. That's awesome. Definitely done episodes with camera on, no audio, audio on, no, every expression of total not having a checklist to follow. Yeah. So anyway, okay. So I see Flynn, Big Hog, whatever. And Jamie's like, how do you guys know each other? He goes, oh, this is instructor to know. This is when I was a buds instructor at Indock. Well, long story short, I'd say. secured the class that weekend because I found alcohol and one of the students' room underage. So I just secured them and did the whole weekend of just inspections and beat downs and stuff like that, which-- - Did you clear that with the head shut, of course? - No, because it was-- - Excellent. - The weekend, and I didn't think to do that because this was-- - Well outside of the curriculum boundary is-- - Oh, I'm a huge fan. - 100% outside of the boundaries. - And this is just one of many things as to why Jocco eventually got the call. When Jocco shares this story, as to why I got pulled from Buds to trade at, he goes, "You remember in Rambo, when they called his officer and said, come get your guy?" - Yeah. - That was kind of the call that Jocco got. Like, "Hey, come get your guy." - Yeah. - He was off the rails. And Jocco was like, cool, you know, he didn't say this, but I'm sure Jocco's like, I can speak JP, bring him to trade it. So Jocco pulled me over to trade at to work for him and Z and all these other guys that I've been with in the task unit. To give me a sense of fulfillment of like, "Hey, you're gonna be trained." And I remember that when I got pulled over to the Jocco, it was like, "Hey, we are training seals to prepare for them for war." They saw off of the experiences that we have, that you have. Like, we've got to-- I was like, hell yeah, I'm about that. 'Cause when I was at Buds, I was just-- I was a psychopath. I was off the rails. I had no direction, which was 100% mine. I never saw it. I never got clarification. Like, "Hey, what are my roles and responsibilities as an instructor?" Like, "Hey, what are my limitations?" I was psychotic, Andy. Well, it's also wild that they didn't provide that for you. You know what I mean? The mechanism also needs to onboard their staff appropriately as well, too. And I will give the program the credit. I'm sure they did. I'm telling you, I probably did not listen and/or receive it. Which we can go back and forth from a leadership aspect. That checks out. I can look over from the other side and be like, "Hey, if you see one of your guys, are you not pulling them aside and saying, "Hey, is everything OK?" Either you have to hold yourself accountable to your people. Accountability is this term where from leaders, I see this often, they're like, "Oh, yeah, yeah. "My people are accountable to me." Put a pin in that, 'cause we'll come back because that's kind of true. But as a good leader, you really need to be accountable to your people. To your people. Yeah, have you-- this person who's underperforming, do they have the knowledge they need? Do they know the left and right boundaries? Do they know their authorities? Do they know the roles and responsibility? Have you reiterated those things to them and had the escalation of counseling conversations and totally? Yes, they are accountable to you via the leadership structure, but take it easy, buddy. Yeah. So one of the things that Jocco's encouragement to do is start writing, like not to write a book, but just to start writing, because he's like, you have a very, and life has it as well. He's like, you have a very unique perspective because you were the youngest, most junior-ranked guy in Task Unit Bruiser. You know, yes, he had some leadership positions, but they're always at a lower level and now, what you do at echelon front, I see it from a completely different angle, so I can bring them all together. So that's why I was saying I was always going through that. Like, trust me, it was 100% my fault for the way I acted as a bus instructor. I got pulled for a reason. I was not doing my job properly. Was I holding the line? Yes. Was I doing what bus instructors should be? Yes. But was I also doing things that I should not have been doing? Absolutely. So anyways, I secure him that weekend. Flynn was supposed to fly home that weekend to, because him and his wife had already gotten married, but this was the ceremony with all of the family, with his family. So now Jamie's there by herself with his family. When I found that out, I felt absolutely horrible because I liked Flynn. He was a good student. He was a good officer. He was a class OIC. And I told him, I'm like, bro, if you would have just told me, hey, instructor, no, I'm supposed to get married this weekend. I would have said, cool, go. But him being a good officer and the class I was the last thing he'd been going to do. It's zero chance he's going to do yet. So that was my first introduction with Jamie Cochran, who is now our chief operations officer at echelon front and one of our senior leadership instructors. So she'll forgive you for that in a few decades. Well, we always joke. We always joke a lot back in the day. It was like, oh, we got a low-paying gig that has three stops and a bus. Yep, JP's on that one. We know the hotel's oversold and only has handicap rooms. JP's got that one. Revenge comes in so many different forms. It's been nine and a half years of just hookups. I'm just kidding. It's not enough yet. I would say one more decade and you might be at even with her. If it's even possible to get to even with her. So I'm lucky she's a very forgiving and sweet lady. That's what she wants you to think. Well, maybe. And I believe it. She's playing you like a fiddle. I know. Well, she's very fortunate with what I do at echelon front because I love what I do. And I know that was a regional question. I love what I do. I love interaction with clients. I love the hands-on scenario-based leadership training, the field training exercises that we built out. Jocco and Leif are like, hey, we've done a few of these. This is what we want to look at. This is what we want to look like. Go, go build it. And that was where my parameters, which was pretty awesome to have that much trust from your leadership. And now Cody Gandy, one of our leadership instructors, he's the director of experiential leadership training. So he took that whole program over for me. He's former Marine. Absolute studs, very smart, very hard work. He's made the programs so much better than when I was running it. And so to answer your question, at this pace, could I do another decade? Yes, do I want to know? Because the last decade, while it's been amazing, like absolutely amazing to be a part of this. And now on the executive leadership team, and trying to help grow national and front from a strategic level. And I'll tell you what, I have weekly calls with Leif Babin. And he just pours in to me every week of helping me think strategic. Knowing that when I was in the SEAL teams, it's important to think strategic. But when you're in E4, E5, E6. How strategic is lunch? Yes, it's strategic. Maybe if you're pushing it is the end of the day. And yes, and then when we got to Ramadi, they put me in a leadership position where I was at LPO of a small group out on the eastern side of Ramadi with Seth and Benny and those guys. And so I got to see a little bit more. I'd go to mission plannings and everything else like that with the guys and I was helping plan out the missions and I was our lead sniper and point man and machine gunner. So I had a little bit more. And then at trade at, you see a little bit more as well as an instructor. But I never had what Jocco had, that Leif had, that Dave Burke had who, you know, Dave Burke did 23 years in the Marine Corps as an officer, fighter pilot, top gun instructor, ran top gun school. You know, is the only guy that I've ever flown and operated or flown operator commanded units for F-16, F-18, F-22 and F-35. I think he has like two or three masters degrees. And then, and so I was, I had a really hard time comparing myself to these guys at the beginning. You talk about Imposter Syndrome. Like I'm the first instructor, Dave Burke's the second instructor. And then they brought on Fling Cochrane as an instructor for a while as well. And then a few other guys that you and I know and now we have this massive team. I have failed in the last five years to shift towards strategic thinking to grow the company, which is hindered my team. Well, you may not have been in that role though either. Yeah, but I should have started knowing what we teach. I should have really started like asking better questions to Jocco and Leif and Dave and all these other guys who are brilliant leaders. And so Leif this last year has really been pouring into me to help me just think strategically and shift things that way. And so the goal is to help grow our program, to grow echelon front. You know, we do our LDAP program. It's our leadership development line approach. It's our long range, long range contracts with clients where instead of us just coming in for one or two things, hey, we're going to work with you for nine months, 12 months. How do you actually make a change in an organization? 100%. Like, let's get in and generate for opening eyes to concepts, but getting the tires on the road with traction with those concepts is not going to occur in 16 to 90 minutes. No, I'm not discounting the keynotes. It's the extended work overtime. 100%. And so I love our LDAP program and our FTX program because when you put those two together, hands-on scenario-based leadership training where you're feeling the principles real time, it's incredible. And so Leif's been helping me just think more strategic to grow echelon front, not just FTXs. It's 1 team 1 fight echelon front. Hey, what we do at echelon front, it's, hey, we're all working together. And so the goal is to help grow while not having to be in 2 to 3, 4 different cities every week. And I love traveling because I get to meet new people. But I also love my wife and my kids. And now I try to bring my wife and kids on trips when it makes sense. My kids come to the musters and they help work the muster. And it's really cool they get to be around that and see those events, but stuff, though. It is, you know, in different worlds. You know, our son, Aiden is 20. And, man, you know, I just last January got reconnected with my son out in California. He's 17 now. And he was 15 when I got reconnected. And the blessing there was, you know, God's grace and forgiveness is a real thing. Did he reach out to you or did you reach out to him? His mom reached out to me and was like, hey, I'm sorry. I hope you can forgive me. I'm free. gave you a long time ago. Hayden knows about you. He doesn't know anything about you. If you'd like to be in his life, I'm good with that. And I was so thankful, like so thankful that she, like, gave me that opportunity. And, you know, forgiveness is a real thing. And I like to say forgiveness is your sign. Forgiveness is a sign of your maturity as a leader. And when you forgive somebody, you actually have to forgive them. Well, there's one step before forgiveness. You may not agree on this. And that's revenge. Well, fortunately, in this situation, there was none of that, right? Because the kids involved in-- Clearly, you didn't try hard enough. It could have been towards the mother. I'm joking. It's-- I'm the farthest thing from a perfect human being. And I would agree with you. Being able to forgive or say your forgiving is one thing. Being able to actually let go your end of the tug of war. Yes. Putting the rope down is way different. I have been better at saying I have forgiven people and then plotting their demise afterwards than actually letting go of the rope. It's hard to do because you want revenge. I mean, but it's not worth it. Yeah. So, you know, I know you were joking. I never wanted to revenge. Was I on? Hello. There are situations. But in this current situation, there was no like feelings of like revenge towards his mom. I was thankful. I was very grateful. Any revenge would have stolen the opportunity she was presenting for you. Exactly. And that's just also not the right thing to do. And what's really cool about forgiveness, it's for you. It's for you. Because if you say you forgive somebody and you don't forgive them, but you're holding on to something, that is hindering who you are as a man, as a human. And so for me, especially being strong on my faith and, you know, like, here's God. Jesus has forgiven me for so many things that I don't deserve forgiveness for. Who am I not to forgive somebody else? You will be forgiven at which you forgive others. That's why I like using the tug of war analogy. I like that. Just let it go. It tug of war takes two people. Yeah. You always have the option of just opening your hand and letting go of the rope. Yeah. Well, it was really cool how God had started conditioning my heart for this moment. Because in February of 2022, I went to a ministry event called, it's through a ministry called Walking in Truth. My buddies, Matt Russell and Troy Foster and Jared had started this ministry. And they do these events called pursuit for truth. And the thing about pursuit for truth is it's your pursuit to get closer with the Lord. Everybody's pursuit is different. And so it's a four day or three and a half, whatever. It's Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. And at the time, it was only in Amarillo, Texas. And now it's like we have where they do them there. They do them in Maine. They do them in Idaho. They do some in Arizona now. But when I went, I went to that and I just surrendered all these things that I've been holding on to since childhood, high school, military deployments, failed marriages, like all of these things, all these things that until you actually surrender it, you're still carrying that. And I was carrying a lot. It was heavy. It was dark. On the outside, everything looked good. But man, I was slowly suffocating on the inside. And I've always had a relationship with the Lord. I was saved at a young age. Like Jesus Christ is Lord. He's my Lord and Savior. Always has been. Never turn my back on God. But I had veered off the path multiple times. And by His grace, He'd always pull me back. And this was one of those moments where I was starting to veer, hadn't completely veered, but was starting to and pursued for truth. Got me back. And one of the things I worked through was my failure as a father with Hayden. Because I didn't do enough. There's so many more things I could have done to reach out to just fix that relationship to like, I didn't apologize enough. I didn't, I didn't do enough to fix the damage that I created with his mom and his grandparents. And she did what she thought was best for him. I can, I can never be mad at her about that. I can only be mad at myself. And so part of that was forgiving her for those for, for that time away from my son, but then really forgiving myself, Andy. Like when I was able to forgive myself for all of these things, it was like, man. And also, again, my wife and I were divorced at a time and now we're good when I went to pursue, I was also able to work through to what you were saying. Like I had forgiven a man for a lot of things and I know she had forgiven me, but some of those things would still be in the back of my mind. Yeah. And the like, Seth Stone, you saw I say, the devil's a liar. And he'll just plant those seeds back in their plantum. And, and for me to be able to go there and just fully let go of everything. And I was sharing this with somebody recently. I was like, when I went to pursue, when I was forgiving everybody and forgiving myself for all of these things, one of the other things that I did is, Lord, I forgive Amanda for everything I don't know about. So if anything comes up, I don't care. Because what would the devil want to bring something up that maybe had been hidden that we'd never talked about to ruin what we have now? I don't believe in you that actually exist. But in my mind, I want tough. Yeah. But I wanted my heart posture to be in a position to where it would be like, oh, cool. I don't care. I already forgave her about that. Well, you didn't know about it. No, I asked God to help me soften my heart so that I would forgive her for everything I didn't know about. And I did that with like everybody in my life. And so it was a really cool moment to where he had been conditioned in my heart. And I tried to go back to pursue as much as I can to help serve, to help other guys go. And it's just, it's an incredible ministry just to see the growth for guys of just drawn closer with the Lord and just letting go of stuff. Just, hey, let go of these things. I think religion, I'm not a religious person. Open to religion. Faith is never liant with me. I don't have always been super transparent. I would have to say I'm agnostic. I don't know either way. I'm not an atheist where I don't think I just don't know. Yeah. And I start with some really religious people. We talk for hours about religion. And oftentimes I'm envious of people's faith. But I can't lie and say, I share the faith. And maybe that just means it's not my time. What you're describing though, people being on their own path. Yes. As opposed to being on a regimented path and being told, well, this is the only way. And then this is how you have to do it. I think religion would be so not that it's not accepted. I think it would be accepted and embraced more if there was an understanding that it doesn't have to be fall of the breadcrumbs of the person in front of you. No. Or the larger path. You're walking in glacier the other day. There's the clearly worn path. And maybe that works for most people. But it's also okay to walk in the knee high grass if you want to. Yes, it is. I think it would be all of our walks with the Lord are going to be different. And I love the way you said that because I think that is the fear that people have that are new with their faith or maybe thinking about like, I mean, like you just said, you're like, man, I've been around people. I just haven't had my moment yet. And yeah, I've had some buddies say the same thing. And I just, my challenge to them was, hey, just ask the Lord to have that moment. And you'll know, like it'll be an undeniable thing that you know. And I've had multiple of those throughout my life. And that's like when it comes to my faith, like it's as strong as if somebody was to tell you, you don't actually love your wife, Andy. If somebody told you, you don't really love your wife, you would be mad. Like, you would, yeah, see, I don't think anybody I know would tell me that. And since I wouldn't know the person saying it, I'd be like, get away from me crazy person. Exactly. Okay, so that, okay, so exactly. And I love this because even the thought of that makes you uncomfortable of like, dude, yeah, like what? You would be like, get away from me. You're crazy. And then if they didn't, you would start to get you would heel hook them. Yes. And hopefully they're wearing pants so I could heel hook somebody on the key. They'd probably be wearing shoes. I think that's a tight grip. I've never tried it because I'm only two days into this. Yeah. Your heel hook aim is sick after two days, which is really frustrating and inspiring at the same time. That's my conviction. So that's my conviction with my faith. Because I've had, I've had so many moments where it was an undeniable God moment. I knew that I knew. And, and so that's why when I went to pursue, it got even deeper. Like you got even like even more clear philosophy. I'm not going to say I don't want to speak for the organization, but it seems more self guided or a self journey with no wrong answers. Well, they actually say it's Holy Spirit led. There you go. And each person has their own pursuit. And I love that they say like, Hey, don't compare your growth this weekend to Andes or JPs or Matt or Stevens or Josh or Jake or Brents. Your pursuit is your pursuit. And also when you leave here, the pursuit's not done. This is a never ending game like life, like business, like marriage, like jujitsu, like raising kids, like you don't get to a point where a quorum is done. No, it's like until my last day, I will continue doing these things. And so I had been serving, has some really cool moments of just, Oh, man, I need to work through this. Oh, I need to work through this. And I'm super thankful because my parents instilled all these things into us as young kids, like group of the really good household, really good parents still have obviously really good parents that love all the kids that just, I mean, they've been praying over us. My grandmother who's still still alive. Still to this day. I remember growing up and hanging out. her house, you walk out into the kitchen and she'd been awake, you know, because her and my grandfather fed all the animals and did all this stuff on the property. And she's sitting at the kitchen table, reading her Bible, praying over each family member. So that's what I've seen in my whole life. She's still alive. She's still alive. And your mom and dad are both still alive? Yes. I know it's a blessing. It is. And my in-laws are still alive. My in-laws were blessed. Yeah, that's amazing. And my grandmother is the only grandparent left. So Amanda, so that's, you know, Amanda's like, hey, you know, it's her grandmother's well, you know, been together for so long. But, you know, I was just like, okay, me to work through these things, work through these things. I'm like, man, why is, why does forgiveness keep coming up? This is a common theme for me. And then I get that text message. And, you know, there's a wave of emotions, you know, anger and frustration. And, you know, geared towards myself. And, you know, I waited for about two and a half hours before I responded. And, um, you know, because all these little things come up, like, well, I could say this or this. And at the end of the day, what, what you say is thank you. Isn't it beautiful to take that time, though? Oh. That's why, as you're on front, we teach detachments of superpower because it's so hard to do and sucked into that rabbit hole summit very recently within this week. I was involved in a business situation where upon receipt of information, I believe the technical term would have been, I became furious. Oh, yes. I had to come over and record a podcast. I didn't have to. I'm lucky enough that this is what I get to do for a living. Yes. And the guest was there waiting to go. So I did not. And I would like to believe I would not have gone completely off the top ropes. However, being honest, there is a chance I might have gone off the top ropes. Instead, grab the guest we came to the podcast, talk for about three hours. The difference in my ability to be able to respond. And it was, I think it was equal parts time, but also my mind was occupied elsewhere as opposed to just churning the ground of what it was that was making me just infuriated. And when you get sucked into something like that, you can't see anything else around you. And you can do a lot of damage in that furious mind state that may not be depending on the things that you say. I mean, sticks and sounds may break my bones and all that stuff. Words will never hurt me. Yeah, I've been pretty hurt by some words. I've been hurt and I've hurt people with my feelings. Same here. And never in a moment of rational thinking, though, have I ever hurt somebody with words or tried to? Yeah. But in a moment of being furious, oh boy, we were reaching deep, deep into the rucksack for the sharpest object that I could find. I've been there a lot of times and you're thankful as you're looking for it. It's in the wrong pouch. And by the time you get to that pouch, you've relaxed a little bit and you're like, nope, this is not the right thing to do. There are so few things in life that demand an immediate response. And I would say life limitize site or probably the only things in that category. Yeah. Yeah. So I waited, like I said, two and a half hours before I responded. And I was like, thank you. It's great to hear from you. I've been praying for you and Hayden every day. Cliff knows version. Hey, I love to connect with you later tonight. And so sat on my phone with her in my office, my wife sat in there and I talked her for about two hours, just kind of learning about my son and all these things. And she's like, well, hey, I'm going to tell him that we talked and see if he'd like to, we'd like to talk to you. I know he would, but just might take a few days for him to, it's a lot. Be good with it. And she's also very mindful because it was the weekend of our daughter's birthday. And it's like, hey, let's wait a couple of days. So boom. And so a man and I waited for the girl's birthday thing. And then we told the girls. And because they never knew. And the reason why we didn't tell them is at what point do you tell them when they're young? Because at that point, I was like, I didn't never know when I would be connected. And I didn't want our daughters holding on to that. And once you start learning your kids' personalities, okay, cool. Now's the time we could tell them they can process it. But because of their personalities, we knew that that would be really heavy on them. It would like be very, very heavy that they ever brother that they can't see in all these things. So as you can imagine, there's a flood of emotions from the kids. Aiden was good with it. And he was like, oh, yeah, I knew about Hayden. A man and I like, what? He goes, yeah, I remember when I was four, you guys talking about him. Spun just did. But the fact that he was a slunge and held onto it and never said anything. Which is impressive. Because he just knew that if we didn't talk about it to him, he's like, I'll just, I'm not going to talk about it. Which is great. That's how Aiden's brain works. He's a very intelligent kid, but he can just hold on to stuff. And which it's a super power that he holds it out of a roll of decks from 16 years before. I know. Like, oh, yeah, I wish I had to like, like, cameras in our house or whatever, because when he said that, man, I'm both like, as if you and I are saying, here, we both are like, what? Yeah, what? One of our daughters just, rightfully so, very upset with me. And upset with a man and I, but mostly geared towards me. She felt like I lied to her, which was really hard to hear and receive. Our other daughter is just, you know, we have twins and she was not a motion, like just emotionalists, like just very stoke about it and had a hard time receiving it. Give it time. Yeah. Well, well, this is, you know, again, that's here with time. It'll start coming back and time. Yeah. Which to our point earlier, just give some things time. It'll change our angry daughter who was angry at and she's not angry, but angry towards me. Once she flipped, it was all in. Awesome. All in about her brother and blah, blah. It took the other one a little and, you know, he came out that summer. You know, so a man and I got to go out there, be a part of his 16th birthday and Amanda's heart posture and all this was amazing. Just instantly like, hey, you know what? We're raising a kid together. We're going to be friends, which is the right thing to do. Which is, be honest, our better halves are, they're called that for a reason and it is demonstrably true in both of our, yes, situation. Our wives, yes, we outkicked our coverage. They're way better than us as humans. And, but that was Amanda's like, hey, yep, we're raising a kid together. We're going to be friends. We're doing this together. And, you know, my son's mom and Amanda just connected. We know we're in a group text. We go out there for 16th birthday. It was awesome. I was out there for, you know, I was actually out there for, we're talking initially. And I remember telling them, I'm like, hey, bud, I'm going to be about two and a half weeks. I'm going to be about 20 minutes from you and your mom. My wife's coming out with me on a work trip. I'd love to see you. If it's too much, I get it, but I would love to see you. And he said, I'd love that, dad. And I just, bro, I was just crying. You know, I'm on FaceTime, like, gosh, dang it, man. And I was like, cool. And, you know, we met at a Bass Pro Shop because there's a really cool hunt, a shooting game that he wanted to show me. And again, he doesn't know anything about me. Yeah. And so we meet there. He brought Amanda flowers. And it was awesome. And we play the shooting game. And I'm like, cool. I'm like matching them on it. And then I just smoke him. That's the move. Yes. You know, and he looks over and he's like, man, I'm pretty good at this game. And Amanda goes, there's a lot you're going to learn about your dad. And so we had a great day. Next day I do my work thing. I get it. We get to go see him, train Jiu Jitsu. You know, he's a good kid, loves a Lord, serves the church, trains Jiu Jitsu. And I'm like, man, this is, you know, amazing. And Amanda and I have been very intentional about making sure we tell his mom this and everybody else. She's done a phenomenal job raising a young man, phenomenal job. It's tough when you have both parents involved. Tough enough when you have both involved. I can't imagine the solo journey of that. And you know, she has a close relationship with her parents. And our parents are awesome. And you know, her parents, his grandparents have done a great job helping pour into it. I mean, he's a solid young man, like just play sports is a good kid, good student, loves the Lord, trains Jiu Jitsu, has like, take down a hard, take down, strong. Yeah. That would have expected nothing was. Yeah. And okay, let's play that game with Michael. Okay. I own a guard pole. So we'll pause real quick. The first time watching on train Jiu Jitsu, I'm just like, and Amanda's like, he fights trains just like you. Almost like he has your genetics. Weird. It was so, it was so surreal, Andy, to see my son who I hadn't seen in 15 years, trained at Jiu Jitsu, who has the same style. So you don't have only one time since we've known each other. And it was at last origin, kid. I was avoiding it every time. I'm like, man, I get beat up all that I get it was for you. It was for you crap out of me. I didn't be the crap. We basically were exchanging in guard the whole time. I was on my back and you were passing and all the old Brazilian bastards were all just. Of course you're geasing it up. But I'm like, what? Yeah. I loved it. I love you. I love you. Jiu Jitsu and your team guy, your intensity, everything that you do in life. But you man, your technical skill set on Jiu Jitsu is impressive. It's I appreciate that. I don't often times, man, I feel like I'm barely surviving. Okay. Well, you can say that, but I can tell you my perspective and everybody in my Jiu Jitsu world is very impressed by your Jiu Jitsu. My professor for mega, kind of good. You know, 13-time world champion. Never heard of him. 14-time Pan American champion. He's a savage, unreal savage. He loves your Jiu Jitsu. That's good to hear. I'm just So I'm just saying, and he loves your wife's jujitsu, and also your wife's ability to teach jujitsu. - She's such a better practitioner than I am from a depth of knowledge. Well, and you saw this in the teams too. There's people who are, they can perform at such a high level, but then it's almost always somebody else who could teach and get somebody to that level. Seeing both in the same person is very, very rare. Whether an ultra high performer, but they can also coach and make people better than them. And I almost, I don't necessarily have the 80% practitioner, but 100% coach that can bring people up. Leah is just, yeah. - Yeah, it's like for me, and also, you know, Victoria, one of our, she has the same ability. She's competing on a high level. And then she was so bummed, she was very closely monitoring the world's competition of her weekend. - I know, I know. - But for her to do what she did was still incredible. - That's what I said. I'm like, that's not be too bummed about what's happening. She is slaying everyone except for this one person. - Yes, yeah. - Silver is so pretty epic in the world. You're gonna be just fine. - And she's so young. - I know. She's got road. - Yeah. - Don't think we're gonna escape this though. Looking at Michael, take down her guard pull. - Let your inner voice come out. - Man, I think just the way his brain works, he's probably a guard puller because he likes the technical aspect of being down there and then working his jujitsu game. - His guard is good, but he's a little takedown savage. He'll fall for it. - Yes. - Yeah, I like guard for sure, but I love fighting for takedowns. - My man. - Yeah, that's so fun. - Which is like the perfect. - That's the dangerous player. - It doesn't matter if you'll, oh, my takedown failed and I'm in guard. Oh darn. - Until I sweep you an NFL. - So I wasn't completely wrong with my assessment. - Just by looking at him though, I agree guard puller for sure. - My god, awful looks. - How are you talking about judging a book by its covers completely fine sometimes? - Well, I mean, we proved that to be true on the Q&A session where you recorded yesterday. - I did switch your profile picture over by the way, it's spectacular. Zoomed in right on the guy's forehead, right at the doorbell again. - That's weird, I appreciate that. - I know, I figured you would. - Yeah, so yeah, that's kind of where I'm at in regards to my mindset of like the time at echelon front because, you know, I lost, I didn't say I lost, but I was limited on what I was able to do with my kids. But a man and I had agreement, 100% from the beginning. I remember the red light that we're sitting at in South Heavy, Mississippi, in my truck when I'm talking to Jocolay from the phone. And, you know, they said, I remember Jocol saying, "Hey, if you want to be a part of building this, we want you to. You can do as much or as little." But if you want to build this with us and be a part of this, you're gonna miss a lot of things. But if we do it right, you're gonna be super busy for about five years. And then you should have a team in place. And then you're gonna be busy with your team for about another three years. And then start pulling back and doing different things. That's literally the timeline we've hit. So a man and I both knew, it was gonna be about a decade, which as you know from building businesses, if anybody listens to Pete Roberts, he talks about decades. Everything is in decades. Nobody wants to hear that either, they want it to be, well, 'cause we live in a microwave society where you go to grab something out of the freezer and heat it up to eat, which you shouldn't be eating those foods. But, you know, you can microwave broccoli. Take it easy. Yeah, that's what I was thinking too. Not those delicious green and chili burritos. Just say it, I have microwave broccoli sometimes, 'cause it comes in a microwavable plastic thing, which came back. My middle son would be disgusted at because of the microplastic that is absorbing. Yeah, but you know, think about, okay. How many times have you grabbed something and you look at it and you're used to everything like 90 seconds is done. And you look at it and it says microwave for five minutes, rotate halfway through. People get irritated about that. Yeah. Because that's just what we're used to. So now you're trying to tell somebody, "Hey, it's gonna take a decade to build a business." Or to see some major transitions and changes in your life. That's hard. That's hard for people to actually think about and see it let alone have that ability to maintain a tenure or to create a tenure vision and then maintain a tenure vision. And that's what I was saying like why life in Jaco had been pouring into me because I didn't do that soon enough and they're helping me just catch up. They're helping me shorten that gap. Now, as you know, with time, we can't do anything with time other than make the most of it. I can't pause it. I can't speed it up. I can't slow it down. I can't reverse it. Okay, cool. This is the time I have. Now I'm gonna be intentional with it. I was very intentional with helping dole dash wand front. Get my family out of that financial spot. You know, get to the point where we had money and savings. Get to the point where cool, we have money and savings. Now we can invest, we can invest, we can invest, we can invest. Cool, we're also saving and investing. We want to buy a house, cool, we can buy a house. You know, and there's some things like, you know, hey, we're getting ready to buy a house. Hey, there's an opportunity to invest in a Jaco feel. Friends and family, do you want to do this? And it's like, yes, house can wait. And that's the choice that we made. Which was a strategy. Beautiful, you have that choice though. Man, like I say, God's grace has been amazing. Cause like nine, half years ago, it wasn't happening. Jaco and life also didn't know. When I first came on board, I fell on front. I was delivering pizzas to help make ends meet for my family. Going door to door in our neighborhood, asking if people wanted their address, spray pendant on the curb in front of their house. So in case they had to call 911, it could be easily identified by first responders. That's a very good sales pitch. Yeah, I'm not bad at sales. You got to make it pressing. It has to be a pressing problem. There is an emotional connection to your need. Yeah. And so that's why they're like, yep, cool. So I knocked that out. I was teaching people shooting. I was siding in people's hunting rifles on the side. And then my buddy Jared up in the natural area. Just an incredible human. He actually built me my first long range rifle. That I still have my 6.5 creed more than just as a laser beams. Yep. And he was, he didn't need the help, but he knew I was in a position, because I just made a comment about work. And he was just like, hey, bud, I could use some help on these jobs. And so I was driving from South Haven to Nashville area, which is three and a half hours on Wednesday morning, waking about three, getting there by 6.37. And I would do construction with him all day long, sleep in his attic at his house, do it again on Thursday, do it again on Friday, drive all the way back to South Haven, Mississippi, and then deliver pizzas. And then I asked my buddy Lee, who owned the Marker's Pizza in South Haven, if I could stay a few hours late to help close down the kitchen. And he was like, oh, bud, we're good. I got people to do it. And I was like, I could use the extra hours. Think about this. An extra two hours at minimum wage in Mississippi, but I was also doing that because I wanted him to know I appreciated him letting me deliver pizzas, because that was all those little things, and then some of the never settled t-shirts was getting me where I needed to be. One of my best friends, Brian Arnold, who is a detective up in Louisville, Kentucky, he actually started the air unit for Louisville PD. He met one of his buddies one time I was up there for a trip, and his neighbor had a mobile ATM business, and I was just like, because at the time I buddy, Brian, he lived in a beautiful neighborhood. His wife was very successful. Everybody in the neighborhood was ultra successful, and we're all hanging around a fire talking. And I'm just, hey, what do you do? What do you do? I'm like, if people live in these multi-million dollar homes, I just want to know, like, what do you do? What have you done with your life? 'Cause I like learning from people. And one of the guys is like, well, his name is Chris, he's like, you know, you probably laugh about it, but, you know, me and my brother, we own a mobile ATM business. I was like, interesting. Probably slaves. Uh, yeah. Yes. He goes, well, you know, the banking thing got deregulated, so me and my brother went out to this conference in Nevada, we learned about it, and we just started out, and I was like, man, that's awesome. I was like, anybody can do that, right? He goes, yeah, he was like, if you want to do that, I could help you get set up with our system. And I was like, I want to do that. It's like, man, I have an old ATM down in my basement that, I mean, it works, but it's not a new one. He goes, we have all, we have all these really nice new ones that we use the systems, and he goes, you know, I handle this out of the business, and my brother does the processing side. So when somebody pulls the money out, we get the money from their bank, we then transfer the money back to your bank, and you know, that's how it all works. So I'm like, all right, who learn that we just, we take a little bit off of each transition from both sides, and I was like, man, that's, that's really cool, okay? He's like, man, I give it to you for like $500. I was like, I think I have $500. Again, just, I want to try to make something work for my family, and so I also had a mobile ATM business at one point, where I would go to different concerts and venues and MMA fight shows, and I would pull this ATM out of the back of my truck, put it on a dolly, had this whole set up and everything. I had gone to the bank and got a signature loan. - Just stuff it full of the cash. - Yes, yep, absolutely. And got a little signature loan, and you know, just started doing that, and I would go to different venues, and just set up the ATM there. There's a few times, here's a crazy, I would walk in, I'm like, hey, do you guys know where the ATM is supposed to be set up? And they're like, oh, I didn't, there's ATMs down there, I'm like, cool, thank you, I'd go down there, I'd unplug the other ATMs, - That is the move. - Put bags over the other ones to set out of order, plug mine in, and yeah, that's what I do. And I was doing that all the time, and then I'm, so then I'm doing that, and then setting up a table to sell shirts, and, I mean, I, that got it. us through all of these moments of just like, "All right, I would sell in T-shirts." I'm like, cool, this is a truck payment. This is our rent. Here's Groot. And I was putting them in different pockets. And so I'm like, all right, cool. This is now we can buy more shirts and we can do it more self-printed. And then I was like taking all the profits from the ATM service fees and just stacking them up. And then I was able to repay you back the signature loan and then have my own little bank that I had to use in, yeah. And just working it from there. And man, I was crazy. My buddy Dylan Davison, who's like my little brother, he actually now teaches at SIG Academy. As an instructor there, he worked at Shaws for a while as well. Funny story, I taught him how to shoot and then got him a job at Shaws as a ground keeper and then he worked his way up to-- - They got really good shots. - That had been ground keepers at Shaws. - Yeah, well, that's Dylan Davison. He started on my buddy Mike's farm in Mississippi, me teaching him how to hold the gun properly in shoot and then ground keeper worked his way up, teaching and now he's one of the lead instructors at SIG Academy. - That's awesome. - But he was always with me. He would go to all of these things to help me because he was just trying to help my family. And I've been so blessed to have those people in my life. And so the work that I now do it as well on front, I like keeping that pace. And the reason why I shared all these things is like, my parents taught us, hey, if God has given you an opportunity, you give it everything you have. Like, you don't have to be the smartest or the most gifted, but you better outwork everybody. And that's what I saw firsthand from both of my parents is they outworked everybody, all the time, not because of ego, but because it's the right thing to do. And it's the same thing with my sister, my brother, Manda, same way, my brother-in-law, Brian, he's the same way. Like, so that's just, I like to work, work, work, work, work. And so I've done that for 10 years. To build this, made different investments to try to build these things. But I also knew, and the reason why I made these other investments, and I've tried to do other things on the side is, I know there needs to be a point where I throttle back. It was going to ask you, are you as good at taking downtime as you are working hard? Because I struggle with this, not right now. I'm trying to get better. And I would like for us to talk about later when the time's right. But this last weekend, I was able to do that with my old platoon, dealt platoon from to your bruiser. It was the first time in 20 years. Let's hop into it. Because I was going to ask you, what brought you up to Montana? And honestly, when you were talking about forgiveness, I mean, that ties directly into, I would say, from the outside events like this, what you guys were doing as well. There's an aspect of coming together, reconnecting. But there's an aspect of forgiveness as well, too. Oh, yeah. All right, well, we're doing this. Yeah, it's still fresh. And, well, explain what it was. If I've been easy and true. Yeah, and I'll just put this out, just-- I'm still processing stuff. And maybe this will also be a part of my healing as well as we talk through this together. You've done that for a lot of guys in the teams and helped them navigate stuff. Because you've had to navigate hard things. But so what we did, and Wes Baldwin, who was our medic, was the one that put it together. And he was the one that led the charge and said, we've got to get together. What did you do? Land on Montana. So when Wes got out of the military, he lived in Boseman, Montana for a while. And it's a beautiful area. It's phenomenal. Amazing area. And he also had some friends there. And he also had a relationship with a blacksmith. And he wanted us to go do some blacksmithing one day. And I'll get into that reason a little bit later. So it was that. And then Doug Wallace, who was our LPO. He lives in the Corte Lane, Idaho area. And it's familiar with Montana. I was like, no, this is a beautiful area. And then our platoon chief, Del Forten, was like trying to help. And so we're trying to get all the guys together. They picked the dates. And at first, they're like, I don't know. There might be three or four of us that show up. But hey, that's progression. That's growth. Let's get-- we as a platoon never sat down after Ramadi and talked about Ramadi. Was that intentional or accidental? 100% accidental. Because guys just kind of started going their own ways. Like, hey, you know, you're back in a platoon. And you probably have your orders of where you're going to go next before you replay back home. Yeah, you're already looking at what's next on the horizon. Yep, 100%. And, you know, and they also, one of the things. And it pissed off our platoon. Like guys were furious with the leadership. Not Jocco, not Seth, but the command leadership. Because when we came back from Ramadi, they're-- And I understand why they did it. But I don't think they understand the damage it did to us. And had they known that or had one guy like voice that? I'm willing to bet they wouldn't. But wait, you were-- 2006. So after we came back from Ramadi, 2006-- It was early. I don't think they had figured it out yet. No, they didn't. Well, they don't understand the damage that it created to our platoon. And I'm not blaming anybody. I'm just sharing this so that our listeners can be aware of these things. They had the idea of, like, let's break up all the experience. Instead of keeping those guys together, which that holds water-ish. Yes. Yeah. It sounds great. From a rack-and-stack Excel spreadsheet where you're looking at inexperience versus experience and how do we titrate this to make it the most equal? Yeah. I can understand that. But I also understand deeply what you're saying is what to do by fracturing those people that had that shared experience and not letting them work through that together. And when you have leaders that you respect and you look up to at your command, say that it makes sense to everybody. And guys were like, OK, now guys weren't happy. But you're in the military and the steel teams. It's Roger that. Unless it's going to be something detrimental. The response is, OK, Roger that, sir. Like, hell yeah, cool. I'll do whatever you need me to go do. So they completely fractured our platoon. And they did the same thing to Charlie Platoon. And I can only speak on behalf of Delta Platoon. But I'm willing to bet it had very similar effects to Charlie Platoon by not being together and not being able to say, hey, let's talk about this. Let's work through this. So for the first time in 20 years, we were able to get together and just sit and talk. And so, flew into Bozeman on Thursday was able to-- I flew in a little bit earlier one of my buddy's Lance, who owns Duarte construction. He's one of our clients that I saw in front. He lives here most of the year. He's a company man, by the way, really. Yeah, clearly. His company's based out of Loomis, California, where in the area that I grew up in. So him and his wife were out here, had lunch with them. It was awesome to talk business and just life and faith and stuff like that. And then hung around until Benny flew in and went and picked up Benny. And then we went by Costco and grabbed some stuff and dug down a big grocery beer run as well. Food and beer, whatnot. Did you put Benny on the cart the little section where the feet like the little child section? For those of you who haven't heard, well, actually, you probably all heard the Friday at this point. Benny's the little wee. It's for six. He is not for six. He's five eight, and I will fight you. And I know you'll heal hook me. Five, six tops. No, dude. I know what you're doing. I'm not playing into it, I know. So we-- One of my favorite people. He's looking awesome. One of the most talented individuals in this field-- Technically and tactically proficient. Yes, absolutely. He was a big part of pouring into me as a sniper, you know? Him and Doug and Ricky at Smurf, Ricky, and those guys like really helped me become who I was as a sniper. You know, obviously Chris Kyle is well, but Chris was in charge of a tune. These are my dealtable tunes, maybe boys. And Benny, you know, is still one of my best friends, but in the teams was absolutely my best friend. Him and West, we're just the three of us. We're just so tight. And so, anyways, just seeing Benny, it was just like walking out, like, man, give him a big hug. And, you know, we do our thing. We get there and just walking into the house and all the guys. So Doug found this place in Clyde Park, beautiful area, in about 50 minutes, northeast of Boseman. I don't know Zach, we were talking about you. Yeah, I had two big houses, you know, with enough. You know, I had 18 beds for the guys and-- Oh, bunk style, but it's like, who cares, man? Yeah. Big living room area, fire pit, trigger grill, beautiful kitchen, and just a view of, like, everything. There's on the hill, it was just-- All the guys were like, man, this is amazing. But of course, typical team guy fashion guys were like, Doug, like, you couldn't have found us a nicer place. What's up with this crap hole? He, like, where's the rest of the mountain range? There's no snow-covered peaks, you piece of shit. Yeah, those elk are really annoying to look at right now. Like, just like, it was just amazing. And it was really cool, like, given, you know, given all the guys, like hugs and, you know, and just, like, just embracing that. And I was just kind of watching all the guys. And, you know, I said this later, but I'll put it in right now. Man, I was talking to the guys, and I felt really guilty. Because as guys were like, processing through stuff, I realized I had already done that when I went to pursuit. And so when I showed up, I was a little anxious for sure, but, like, healthy. But the level of anxiety on all of these other guys was really hard to see. Because I loved these guys, and I care. And you could see it. You know, guys were happy to be there. And you could see guys kind of starting to, like, we could literally-- - Yes, settled into it. - Posture change. And, you know, I said it guys just, like, kind of sitting with their backs to stuff or whatever. Like, guys getting a little closer to each other. And, like, all right, cool. Let me crack open a beer or let me grab a beer. a protein shake or, you know, whatever, you guys are starting to relax a little bit and now there's some fruit out, we'll see some fruit and, you know, like Doug had this like, like a little board set up, like with meat and cheese and stuff like that. It's called a charcootery, charcootery board, you know. And so, you know, guys are just kind of like just chilling and hanging out and it was cool and we're just kind of like, do we want to grow here? What do we want to do? Everything was just kind of open. Hey, who cares? So think about what you just described to, if you were to ask a group of people who was maybe peripherally aware of what the SEAL community is and what they had done or your task unit bruiser and you would have asked them to pick a word to describe the, we'll call it the vibe of you guys having a reunion. I don't think they would pick the word anxious. Yes. It's not the community that would most likely be associated with that. You know, and I think that there's something there and it goes to the price and cost of what it is that they ask you guys to do. Yeah. Beautifully broken down and all of us think that same thing about ourselves and each other. But I was able to see it a little bit different than everybody else initially. I think because I had already gone through those things and also I was talking with Matt has to be about this because I, you know, I started calling all the guys after his event. I'm like, hey, go do this. Like you have to get your guys together, you know, your core group and, you know, I didn't spend a lot of time in the SEAL teams like nothing compared to you and all those other guys that do it. You did 12, right? Yeah. You did 17. I didn't do that much more. Yeah, but you had multiple deployments. I only had three. No, but the reason why I'm saying this, the whole comparison is what? The ultimate defy joy. Correct. The reason why I'm saying that is I had that one core group though. Yeah. You know, I know other guys have had multiple core groups and 24 month cycles, man. Yeah. It's crazy. Guys need to make that a priority though. Like you have to make it a priority with a group of guys to go sit and talk, process, heal, grow, whatever. Because of what I do at echelon front and that's the way that Matt and I were talking. Like, what do you think was the difference between your head, state going in there? Matt has to be always asked very good questions, like very like makes you want to thank and he's generally asking questions to grow as well. And I said, Matt, what we do at echelon front helps people. We have, there is an undeniable value behind what we do at echelon front. Not all of these guys have that. I will add to that. What you guys do at echelon front is awesome. But you personally, just listening to you talk, have invested in doing a lot of work on yourself that helped get you there as well. So the echelon piece is, is no, nothing to say about that other than amazing things. But don't discount the work you have also put in as a person. Well, I appreciate that. And that was also one of the things like Matt I talked about is that men, I've been working on this stuff for four years knowing, you know, and I was talking to a friend recently, you know, their marriage isn't the best. And there's some trauma from the spouse. And it's like, hey, until that person is put in a position that facilitates surrender and growth and healing, they're never going to do it unless they hit rock bottom and then seek it themselves. I was fortunate because hey, when I hit rock bottom, when my wife served me divorce papers, and I was just a complete dumpster fire. I had somebody in my life, a jujitsu coach who looked me in the eyes and said, when are you going to get your shit together and start taking responsibility for your life. At the same time, I had started reading extreme ownership. Those were my two things that was like, yep, I needed to hear that. Oh, here's the tools. The tools that I use in business to do pretty well in sales at a financial company with no background and no experience to do that. I wasn't doing it in my family. So I started doing it there and was able to restore my marriage because my wife's amazing and forgave me and we worked through it together, but to your point is, we had to work to get our marriage back. I've had to work to get my health back. I've had to work to get my finances back. Everything ebbs and flows, there's been good financial times, bad financial times. Good health times, bad health times, good marriage, bad marriage. Don't forget growth is just a person as well. I mean, you're reinvesting in yourself and trying to constantly become a better version of yourself. That is not an easy road either. No, it's not because you have to look at the mirror every day. It's very reflective. I suck, I don't like what I see and now what you can do is you can turn off the light and not look at the mirror or you can say, I don't like what I see. What am I going to do about it? And that's also, I love what we teach our national on front. We show you the mirror. Hey, this is who you are as a leader. Here's your strengths, your weaknesses. Here's what to do to grow better and stronger, to have more impact, more value, you know. And so to see the guy starting to kind of just relax, that was really cool. We went to dinner. We're like, yeah, let's just go to dinner. I found a dinner place, you know, I just, I love like planning logistics and anything. I'm like, cool, found a place, they're open, send to the group, a on lead vehicle, follow me. You know, it was really cool. Like guys getting back into that routine. God. Get the rigorous tape out. Tape the vehicle door. So take it easy. Seconds you. I know. We didn't go that level. But it was really cool because like we're getting ready to go. And somebody said, who's got point and Dave Garcia goes, JP's got point. He's our lead driver. And it was funny, like the way we sat in the vehicles was natural the way we used to sit in the platoon. And it was just, I know. Just say you fall right back into it. I'm driving. Then he's next to me because guess what? When I drove, then he was my nav. And then smurf and Doug were in the back seat and then the other vehicles were all set up like that. It was really cool. I don't know. I wonder how many of the guy, that just occurred to me as I was like visualizing our vehicle layout. Like, yeah, we had a little convoy. So we go to dinner and awesome dinner. And again, you can see guys kind of relaxing and relaxing a little bit. And yeah, we'll go back to the house, hang out a little bit more. And then the next day, Dale or platoon chief has set up fly fishing. So six of the guys want to go fly fishing. We still had two guys that hadn't flown in yet. A group of guys, you know, we're just like, we're just going to chill and hang out at the house. You know, a typical team, guys, you know, you have something awesome. You're in complain about it. You're like, all right, cool. What time we're rolling out? He's like, yeah, we got to be leaving at seven. We're like, what? Dude, we're up here to relax and, you know, like, we're like, like seven p.m. Like kind of, he's like, no, guys, we got to meet them. We got to get out. I'm not in the military anymore. I have to do that. Shit. It was so funny. Like, you guys are, of course. And, hey, if we can give our chief a hard time, 100, they'll be in the cars at 630. Don't worry about it. Yeah. And he's like, and then you realize what we're doing. He's like, all right, you know, like it was, so we go fly, I've never been fly fishing before. It was awesome. It's not the easiest thing. I haven't tried it either, but I've heard so watching a river runs through it doesn't necessarily mean you're going to be able to do the perfect whatever, which as I learned from my guide, as he like mother F that movie, because he's like, that's not actually how you do it. And he was like worked pretty well for a Bradley pit. Yeah. Clearly. But I guess fly fishing, which was intriguing to me, is considered like the sniper world of fishing. Oh, I bet for sure. Because it's very difficult and it's a very precise skill set, which all of us are like, oh, heck yeah. So we had really good guides. My guide, Evan, as we're sitting talking in the boat, I'm like, yeah, where are you from? He's a great guy for conversation and everything. And we're just kind of BS in or whatnot. And he's like, yeah, I grew up in Memphis. I'm like, Memphis, Tennessee, and he's like, yeah, I was like, I lived in South Haven, Mississippi. He's like, what? So we started talking. His sister-in-law was Amanda, my wife's neighbor, and they cheered together. Okay. Wow. Crazy. Yeah. Crazy. So we had a great day. So he was awesome. All three of the guys were like, really good at coaching and teaching and we'd screw something up. And you talk about somebody being a master at their craft. Like we would do something and he would be like, you didn't do this with the wrist. You didn't come all the way up. You didn't do this. Like all these like little things and guys throughout the day are getting better and better at casting and catching. And we all caught multiple fish, which is really cool, which is also like you're talking about. Like the first time you and I everyone golf, like my first golf swing, I just absolutely drove it. I was like, oh, the golf's going to be easy. All went downhill from there. So my first time fly fishing caught multiple fish. You'll probably fish for six months now and then just end up throwing your pole in the water. You'll never see another fish. But here, hey, that's a testament to like why you hire a guy they're putting you where you need to be looking at the conditions, making sure that it's exactly what you want it to be. Yeah. So that was really cool to be able to go do that, which was a lot of healing for all of the guys to be able to like actually like work through that and just had had a really good time with these guys and man, I just really enjoyed that time on the water. And yeah, so I got to give Evan a shout out if you're good with that with a hatch finders fly shop hatch. I feel like that's somehow associated with it's in Livingston, Montana. Yeah. No, I mean the hatch finders. I feel like that's a fishing term or like the the lures they make and I know that's the flies they make something like it's tied into that. Yeah, yeah. So Evan, pull up their website if you like. Evan Keane and hatch finders fly shop in Livingston, Montana, incredible guy like this guy. Yep. Wow. Look at Michael crushing things. Michael's a man. I mean, come on, Michael, scroll down so we can see the beauty. I feel like the hat - The next thing has something to do with the flies. - Is it because things are hatching on the water? - I don't know. - I don't know enough. - I don't even, I mean, I believe they're supposed to be replicating insects that land on the water so they're having a hat, yeah. - Keep going, Michael. - Go ahead. - Give them a gun into flyfishing. I also need another hobby like I need another hole in life. - Yeah, I was just gonna say, you know. So, yeah, that's him on the right. - Oh nice. - Yeah, and that's, yeah. Not you on the left. - Yeah, clearly. But just an awesome thing and what was cool about what-- - Very cool. - Evan and the other guys did is they facilitated conversations the whole time. And then they, 'cause I noticed, I was like, oh, he's getting us to be talking and interacting and asking really cool questions, not pushing anything too much. And then also just kind of letting it be silent. - Yeah. - Which was cool. And we got off the water and you could tell all the guys had a little bit of progression, a little bit of growth, just being on the water with your guys talking and all of a sudden, like, Ben, he would be like, hey, do you remember? And I'd just be in tears laughing. I'm like, hold, I'm here, I've been thought of that for 21 years, we're in our workup and I did that stupid thing. And like, so we're all talking. And then Smurf and I were in a boat together and, you know, just talking about just life and just everything else like that was his wife and his kid and, you know, learning about, you know, what his daughter likes and all these things. I'm like, you know, and as the day was going on, it was amazing. And, you know, Dave Garcia out there and Dale and we had another buddy out there and with Benny as well. I'd say the other buddy, I know his name, but he's a very quiet guy. So out of respect for him, you know what I'm talking about. He's just maintained a very low profile and I respect that. Incredible team guy, like just a generous heart, incredible preacher and do some other really cool stuff. And it was cool seeing guys kind of open up and just, just, but for me, I started to kind of get a little frustrated with myself because I'm like, man, these are some of the closest guys I've ever had in my life. And I didn't know they were, I didn't know these things. You didn't know that so and so was going through a really bad divorce. Yeah, you writing for custody of his kids. You and I were talking about this yesterday, walking over to the coffee shop and obviously we can leave the specifics of anybody's issues that they're going through. Yeah. But it stuck with me when we were talking the number of people that you could mention mutual friends that we have or at least somebody I didn't work with directly, but I know who they are. And the what they are working through and dealing with. Did you ever think, or could you even fathom 20 years ago when you were in Ramadi, the two decades forward, the experiences that you guys were having there would have such profound lifelong impacts. An area is not directly associated, maybe never. It's not once. And then another question that comes from that for me is, is it possible to ask people to do those things and not have that be the result? No. I don't think so. And I'm only giving my perspective. And obviously we're talking broadly about some of the stuff that's going on. But what you were describing, hey, it's not the first time I've heard it from people in our community in B. It's not it's gnarlier in areas of their life that people probably wouldn't connect the dots and say that those two events are connected. So let me just, I'll share this. And then you can kind of expand upon it as you want or maybe it validates what we just said or it opens something else up. I looked at everybody else and thought, man, I'm the only one going through these things because I knew the impact that had on me. I mean, clearly I didn't have my son in my life for 15 years. And it's not because I did anything towards her or him. It was, I didn't know how to have a relationship. I didn't know how to communicate. I didn't know how to control my emotions and not be angry and just angry. Not anger towards her. But you know, I mean, just an angry person which robs you of life. And so, you know, just, and I saw how that affected that. Like, you know, even my first marriage, like I didn't know how to be married. I didn't know how to communicate all those things, you know? And I hurt somebody. You know, I hurt somebody who was a good person, you know? And it just, it's hard when you see the damage that you create in other people. And I think that's the effects of combat and war and seeing evil people do horrific things to innocent people. I've never felt bad once. And I don't have any issues or any PTSD about the people I've killed overseas. Zero. Those are evil people. It was what was being done to other people that we were trying to protect. Bill. When you see kids, being used as a human shield, like that's hard. That's really hard. And just other things that our listeners don't want to hear about and then don't need to. And they don't need to. Yeah, for sure. And again, and that's what we're willing to share. So you can imagine, you know, the other stuff. I just worry about the cost because there is a cost that will never be fully measured. So how do? And the reason why Andy is because nobody talks about it. You can't measure something you don't know about. You can't measure data that you are not aware of. But we know it exists now. Like you saw it. We do, there's more awareness. You saw it anecdotally this, you know, a few days ago. How do you, how do you prepare people? Because there's the price in the cost of what we did. The price we paid. And again, totally. It's not on the deadline, maybe physiological damage, maybe death, psychological, all those things. The cost to me or one way, one part of the cost is the damage and suffering that you saw on your close friends. Over a period of decades that it's like an inkblotter that goes out and touches family, extended family, kids, all of those things. And if we know that that is going to happen, I still believe that there will always be people that will volunteer to do that job. And they, we need that. How do we protect them to the best of our ability? Well, we have to actually talk about these things, document them and come up with a plan. As it's, what do we do in the sales teams after every operation? Indeed, direction, yeah. And we create an after-action report. So we'd sit, we debrief, after-action report, and what do we do with this? Hold on to them or send them out. Send them out? We'd send them out. So that other guys could learn and not make the same mistake. And like what we're doing in Ramadi, like Wajako, Leif and Seth are doing is cool. Gathering that, sending it back to San Diego to the training command. So hey, adapt and modify real-time training so that you're prepared when you show up. We're great at doing these things for tactics, but we don't do it personally. We don't do it professionally. We don't do it with our finances. We don't do it spiritually. That's, going back to what we talk about the pursuit thing. That's the big thing that churches, I think are missing the mark on, is like, all right, cool, what are your next steps now? Like, hey, you're new to faith? Here's your path. Read this book, right? Read Romans, read the book of John, read James. Like start there. Like just don't start in Genesis and read the whole thing and try to process it. Hey, the book of Proverbs has 31 chapters. Each month has 31 or less days. Cool, one proverb per day. Like today's the 23rd, read Proverbs 23. Like things like that, like teaching people what your next steps are. That's what we do at Eschelon Front. Hey, here's your next steps. And that's why we're having success there. So we've taken these lessons that we've learned in combat and training and we apply them to business. Like the lessons that we learn in combat and business, I'm sorry, combat and training, how you apply them to business, your personal and professional lives. Learning from our lessons on the battlefield and preparing guys from the battlefield. The military is getting better, I think. And I'm saying I think, 'cause I'm not plugged into it. So I'm just, so I'm so far disconnected. They were getting better as I got out. So I'm going to assume and deeply hope that that trend can change. Yes, but the things that we can do in our veterans that are listening, if you have guys that are still in, tell them that they need to be doing these things. And that's what I was starting to do. And I called guys from Charlie Betune. I called guys from other teams. Like, hey, this is what my platoon did. This is why you need to do it. And we have guys that were there that still have connections to the community so that we can start preparing these guys. Like, hey, you have these deployments. This is what you need to be doing afterwards. Keep the guys together. Boom, hey, facilitate these things. And find a way to serve your guys. Like Ray Baviera, to help serve. I mean, you don't want to joke about it. Like, I was joking. I'm like, oh, cool. So you're just lazy and not doing anything, Ray. Like, I think he did, I don't know, over 20 maybe 23 years in the Navy. Heroes and SEAL teams got his master's degree while he's in. And since he's been out, he got his PhD. So he's Dr. Ray Baviera now who works for a pretty cool organization with Space Force. And also is a chaplain. Real underachiever, much like Johnny Kim. Also training Jiu-Jitsu and competing in Jiu-Jitsu and doing well. And-- Yeah. - But for him, his piece is a chaplain part. - Yeah. - He's helping volunteer as a chaplain to help guys walk and navigate through these things. And so this weekend was great. So we did the fishing thing on Friday. We all got together and then we all met in Boseman afterwards 'cause we were fishing close. Guys were flying in, guys were at the cabin. We all met there, had a nice big steak dinner downtown Boseman and then we went back to the house and it was like, all right, let's sit and talk. And so we just started sitting and talking and Wes was really good, facilitated and dug, was doing a great job, just kinda guiding the conversations. And you know, you'd start something small, something small and then finally our platoon chief goes, hey, you know what, I think it was our platoon chief, I'm pretty sure it was. What happened on the rooftop when Mikey jumped on a grenade? Like we know he jumped on a grenade, but what happened up there? And when he said that, I recognized, I had never heard the story from Benny or Doug or Mike either. - He pushed one of the people who were there. - Yeah. So unfortunately, Mike surely wasn't able to make it last minute. He had some commitments on the East Coast. I guess he's done this really cool thing with Fox News to put together something for the 20 year anniversary of Mikey Montsour. - Awesome. - And so for those I don't know, so Mikey Montsour is in Erpel, Jim. And in our deployment to Ramadi on August 2nd, 2006, Mark Lee was killed. He was from Charlie Petun. He was the first Navy SEAL killed in Iraq on that same day Ryan Job was wounded. Earlier in the deployment, Kaui from Delta Platoon had been wounded and sent home as well. So Kaui got his second phase in structure with me. Super cool dude. Unreal here. - Yeah. - Just unlike, yes, we're both new guys. We got, that's my guy. And so Kaui got wounded at the beginning of our deployments at home. Guys got wounded throughout it, but we're able to stay on deployment. August 2nd, Mark is killed. Ryan Job gets shot in the face by an enemy sniper. Pulled out of country's surgery recovery hub. And then on September 29th, 2006, as we're getting close to go home, Mikey Montsour jumped on our grenade. That was toss up on a rooftop. It was him, Mike Sirelli, Doug Wallace, and Benny Olson up there. And without hesitation, Mikey jumped on top of that grenade, absorbed the majority of the blast. It blew Mike Sirelli to the right, Doug Wallace to the left. And those guys were really badly injured. And Benny was also injured from that grenade, not as bad as those guys. So we always knew that. But we never knew the details. And which is wild because you would think, and I would have assumed that your platoon and everybody assumed that. Would it have known specifically? Because, and again, this is from a view from the outside, a platoon in the Steel Teams is gonna be 16 to 20 people. And you'd think that everybody knows everything that's going on inside of that. But often you're so disaggregate or a smaller unit, I would have assumed that anybody in Delta would have known that story from soup to nuts. - Yeah. - Wow. So that kicked that off. And I would love for you to have Benny on your podcast or him to share the details. I think he's at a point where he could. And would. - Anything from one fun book or two for the seat. - Just, oh, it actually goes up. - What do you find? - It goes up a little cool. - What do I do but his feet not touching the floor? - I mean, mine art. - You're taller than he is by a substantial margin. (laughing) - Oh, I love that your comedy gives me little breaks from like the heaviness of this story. So I know it's calculated and I appreciate it. - I would love to have him on. But my theory with all those, or anybody's story is, if you reach out to me, I'll 100% facilitate it. But I am not gonna try to get somebody to do it. - Oh, no, I know. And I love that about you and your podcast. I love that because this isn't self-serving. You do this to help other people. - That's right, yeah. - Well, you do. And like all my buddies, I Denver SWAT. Like when they found out I was coming up here my very close best friend is Jesse Rembert. Former Green Bray, been on Denver SWAT. All of his guys, a lot of those guys come help out on the FTX's role players. They listen to your stuff all the time. They love your podcast. - Well, so I'm not to arrest me 'cause I'll be there next week for a day. - Well, you let me know, after this, I'm connecting you and Jesse on the text. If you want, the guys are like air unit. - The guys would, I don't know, but it's in helicopter. - Denver SWAT, I'm just saying, they have an amazing training facility. - Oh, I bet. - I don't know if you remember how to shoot a gun. They can probably get you up to speed. - No, but I'm pacifist now. Just a heel hooking pacifist. - Two days, give me time. I'll get better. - But I'm saying like, I know your podcast, my buddy Josh Straussberger that works with us, he listens every episode. All the guys do because there's value in what you do. And the reason why I said Benny is, I don't want to tell his whole story because it's his story. - I know it might be the one who's best suited to tell the totality that is what happened up there. - It was really hard for me to hear it. Listening to Benny, share the details, knowing that I had never asked him afterwards. Hey, bud, what happened? Are you okay? My best friend, I never asked him, are you okay? - What do you think that is? - I never ask guilty of that as any of the guys. And I was talking with somebody about this. And I came to this conclusion, as we were just kind of going back and forth, it was self-imposed limitations that I put on myself, that because I was one of the youngest and most junior ranked guys, I couldn't do that. Which is crazy to say out loud. But well, it's crazy to hear probably for people who didn't come from that community. It is not crazy to hear because I understand the headspace 'cause I live that headspace for many years in my career as well. I was a perpetual new guy in every role that I held. So I understand this, it's almost as if it's an invisible chain link fence. - I like being the new guy. I do, well, it's easy. I like the new guy mentality. As long as you're a good new guy. - Yeah. - You're looking for work you're trying to learn. - Go above and beyond, take care of your teammates, get the job done, take care of your leadership. - Yeah. - I like being a new guy. First off, that mentality you just described serves new guys, medium, and well done guys. - One equal as well. - Yes, absolutely, yeah. So I think, and I've been really bad in the past about this self-imposed limitations. And I had put these self-imposed limitations on myself of not reaching out to guys that I looked up to, to ask if they're okay. I have always felt out of place my whole life as if I'm undeserving to be around the people I'm with. I felt undeserving to be indultable to. I have felt undeserving to be a trade-out instructor. I feel undeserving at times of my wife and my family. The ministries that I'm a part of, me and my buddy started a ministry called Jesus and Jiu-Jitsu. At times, you know, and helping out at walking in truth and the pursuit for truth, events, events, felt undeserving, undeserving, undeserving. Ashlawn Fratt, a lot of times, just undeserving. When I look around the table of instructors on a mic, and these guys are just incredible humans, you know? - Do you still feel that way at times? - At times, it creeps in, but not as much, 'cause I identify that thought and I dismiss it because I look at the reality of my environment. And you know, Amanda was incredible at the beginning at Ashlawn Fratt when that imposter syndrome was super heavy. And she would tell me, "Jaco or life would not bring you "on board if you did not need to be here. "This is not a charity." - Do you think that you were the only one in those rooms that felt that way? - No. - What you just described is something I have battled with my entire life. - You have? Everywhere at every role. - That's crazy. - Yep. - Do you feel undeserving? - And you could change the vernacular a little bit. - It's underqualified, undeserving, uncertain as if why I was in the room. - And I don't want you to answer this. I want you to think about it. Do you think that's why you struggle with your faith? 'Cause you're, you may have felt undeserving of somebody's love and forgiveness? - I hope not. - Because that's what a lot of people struggle with with their faith is they're undeserving of what Jesus did for us on the cross. - I don't think so. - Okay. - I mean, maybe I'll think about it some more. - Yeah. - I would hope not. I would hope that I'm not. It's almost always been in a professional capacity. - Okay. - Why am I in this room? I'm not good enough to be in this room. - The reason why I ask that is if you feel in one area of your life, you probably feel it in others. - Yeah, let me know if you want it. - Yeah, that's all I want you to. It just popped in my brain and I'm like, "Yeah." - All right, I don't know if that was a little prompting of the Holy Spirit to ask you that question or just it was in my brain? - Yeah, totally. - But yeah, so I, that's crazy, that's so crazy. I wish he had met a glasses on but we have that camera that captured my reaction when you said that. - Michael was probably doodling. So I'm sure it was the camera pointed at the ceiling. - Yeah, proud of that. - I haven't been switching this whole time. - Yeah, cool. - He's just, oh, he's Googling is an A. He's like, "Is there a robotic hand that can have a switch back?" (laughing) He's outsourcing. He's totally, no, dude, I deeply struggle with that my entire time in the teams, post teams, still to this day talking about my experience in the teams. Yeah. It's, you're not alone in that. Yeah. And so, you know, I said something earlier, you know, we can't measure something without data. And if guys aren't talking, we don't know it's existing. I assumed I was the only one who had a dumpster fire of a life. I look at Benny and I'm like, there's no way that guy's struggling. He's a legend in my eyes. Yeah. There's no way Doug Wallace is struggling. No, I knew from Doug and Mike Sirelli and Benny be on the rooftop. That's going to be hard. I didn't actually understand that. And, you know, for a little bit, Mike Sirelli worked at Ashwell on Friday. Now, he's doing his own thing, doing incredible things. Yep. And just start of a team guy, you know, dude, I know you guys, I think, worked together on some stuff. And like, man, I never asked him. You know, but I'll tell you, I've always prayed for all the guys. And that's always been on my heart. And, you know, are unnamed buddy. No way that guy could be struggling. The pedal still, I've always had him up on because of just who he was and how he poured into me as a young guy and his experience. And then to find out he is struggling. And like, I don't care. People can judge me as they want the amount of tears I cried this weekend was healthy because hearing those stories and just processing and me feeling guilty and then working through my guilt with time with the Lord at night before I go to bed and reading the Bible is what I needed. And, you know, smurf. Okay, he struggled through some stuff and like for me to be like, wait, what? You know, and West, like I didn't ever really know he was struggling with stuff. And then you find out he has stage 4 terminal lung cancer. Damn. And he's not a smoker. And it was undetected for all of these years because every doctor's appointment he went to. It didn't show up. But he went to screen specifically if I didn't want to say anything. Did he? There is no. He was trying because he knew he was like he was feeling something. Well, he's feeling as he was dying. Yeah. He was dying. And he kept going and going and going to all these different doctors and VA and everything and couldn't get an answer and tell which you could only imagine what that did to him psychologically of the things that he wanted to do and didn't want to do anymore. I'll leave it at that. And then he finally gets to a doctor and the doctor is asking a bunch of questions. And West is like, yep, so I was at this is what I did and the seal teams all this stuff. And then I was like, were there burn pits near you? Only everywhere. And West goes right next to our building that we slept in at Camp Corrigador. And the guy was like, like right next to it and he's like, yep, right next to it. So the building that we lived in full metal jacket at Camp Corrigador, which was a Ford operating base on the East and Side of Ramadi had a burn pit right next to it. And so this doctor, let's see if I have it, if it was in the text from West, this doctor ordered. This is brought to you by Brunt Workwear. Probably one of the coolest things about this brand other than the quality and comfort right out of the box is this. They actually let you wear the boots to work before deciding if you want to keep them. A real job site on real work days, not just walking around at your house. And if they're not right for you, you can send them back for a full refund. That is a 100% risk-free trial. So Brunt sent me some Omen boots, which I've talked about before. They are essentially a Chelsea boots. The first pair of boots I've had that didn't have laces they were slip on. My daughter saw me wearing them and she is in a welding program right now. So she asked me for a set of low-top Brunt work boots, which I got her pair. She just recently asked me for a high-top pair of the same boots. She says the same things that I do about these. Right out of the box, perfect fit, super comfortable. And my daughter is quite picky. Anybody has a 17-year-old daughter can test to that. The fact that she has two pairs and specifically asked, she said, "This is how my daughter asks me for things. Hey, Dad, do you think you can get me this exact boot in this size and this colorway and at this shank?" And like, yes, I think I can. I can appreciate the fact that she's that specific. This is the boots she wanted, though. Again, these are no doubt the most comfortable boots I've ever worn comfortable right out of the box. No long, painful breaking period like other brands that I have experienced. I'm sure you all have too. They're built to perform, whether you need them to be waterproof, safety toes, soft toe, pull on, or lace up. They got you covered. And Brunt stands behind what they make. Like I said, you can wear them to work if they're right for you, send them back. And I don't know of any other brand doing that. And that is a company that believes in their product. So right now, for a limited time, listeners are going to get $10 off Brunt when you use the code "Cleared Hot" at checkout. Just head to Brunt, workwear.com. Use the code "Cleared Hot" and you are good to go. Brunt was tired of the workwear brands out there cutting corners. You worked too hard to be stuck in uncomfortable boots that don't hold up. So they built something better. Boots that are insanely comfortable and built for any job site for limited time. Again, listeners get $10 off Brunt when you use the code "Cleared Hot" at checkout. Use the code "Cleared Hot" and you're good to go. After your order, they're going to ask how you heard about Brunt. Do me a favor. Tell them it was from the show. That's all I got. Back to the show. Man, he doesn't have it in here. Were you going to try to reference this particular type of scan or something? Yes. Yeah. The specific, there's one test. Okay. There's one test that can find it. And I'm going to take my front off airplane mode and ask him what was the test that found this. Hopefully he responds. But I know he's at physical therapy right now. And so what's going on with West is I was never a smoker but I'm battling cancer from toxic exposure at Camp Crigador in Ramadi from the burn field next to Full Metal Jacket. It is Alc positive, non-small cell lung cancer. Okay. I'm considered chronically terminal because of as of now there isn't yet a cure. I was diagnosed with three to six months to live without treatment. That was November of 2023. Fortunately, I responded well to treatment and could potentially live for 10 years or longer. I do scans every three months to check for progression and daily, twice daily take medication to keep the cancer suppressed. I can beat this but need my research team to do their part and I will also keep doing more. I'm trying to be the first person to beat this kind of cancer at stage four. I'm a fighter and I need help getting at home so we can have a home-based to face a battle that is still yet to come. If people want to help find a cure, go to Alc positive to Alc positive.org. Michael, write that down for this show notes, please. Yeah. That's why Wes got all the guys together. His time is limited. As you know, cancer spreads and he's waiting to find out to see if it spread to his brain. I lost my mom. It's an insidious way to go. I remember you sharing that. If he doesn't get back to me on the test, that does it. It's the test that they do for older people that have been smoking their whole life. I bet you, and the reason I had Michael write that down is I bet you on that link somewhere it will talk about. Yes, so we'll be able to find it and put it in there. Yeah. I'll just scroll down. Michael, if you would, I prefer patients with my patient, what is Alc, if not only Alc gene, it is not thought to be inherited or passed in any way. No one causes a cure. Cures about 70,000 people worldwide with Alc. Okay, so we'll be able to look at this and hopefully be able to determine that, but yeah. Yeah, so we all do that Friday night. We go into some deep stuff. Man, all the guys were in tears listening to Benny, and then listening to Doug, and they sketched out the rooftop like I took a picture that I drawing. I can show you which we won't share, but I can show you. Yeah. And it was to spend a great amount of time with that. Yeah, that's right. That's right. So you've, and I just want to say this yesterday, I just want to say thank you because I know the time you spent with him talking and listening helped him. We had somebody that we were sharing frustrations about at the time. Well, sometimes that's a great common goal ended up getting fired. Well, sometimes that has to happen. So we had a lot of commiseration about what usually it would open with. Can you fucking believe this? This guy, dude. Yeah, so we, I mean, we say, I mean, there was no early nights. It was all late evenings, early mornings, which limited sleep. But I think in the day, it's like, bro, this is the time with the guys for healing, which is really, really good. And again, you know, as I'm listening to these guys, I'm like, man, I'm so thankful for what I get to do at Ashlawn Front because I feel that I'm providing value to people. And it's a dangerous thing when you're living life and you don't feel like you're providing value anymore. or you're not able to perform at the high level that you used to perform at. And that little inner dialogue starts going. And to find out that so many guys that I've talked to over the years and just deal with suicide because they get to the point where they're like, well, I'm not good at doing these things anymore. I'm not providing value, I'm not blah, blah, blah. And they listen to those lies and they feel like the best thing that they could do is in their life. Well, that's a lie. That's not the best thing. That it's, man, the damage that it would create to your family and your loved ones, you know, it's just like the Pebble theory when you, you know what I mean? It just, it's just a ripple effect, you know? And so, which was cool. Like we worked through all that stuff and kind of get to the point where it guys were like, all right, man, love you guys. And you know, very intentional hugs at the end of that. And we're all gotta get to bed 'cause the next day, Wes set up for the whole platoon for us to go do some blacksmith work. And this is hard work, man. Unreal. And most people would believe that swinging a hammer is hard. The temperature in those forges is unreal. Yes. Yeah. And so, before we go to the blacksmith, yeah, I'm just thinking about this. And talking about price versus cost and what happens when you don't talk about these long-term impacts. One of my fears is, you know, so I joined pre-9/11. I joined the Navy in '96. Got to my first team in 1997. I think it's fair to say post 9/11, the media narrative books, TV shows, movies, people can make of them what they want to. It can focus on a really flashy aspect of what the job could look like. Many of those things have what I'll say is a very cautionary relationship to the truth. Some of them are designed to be fiction. Some of them in the non-fiction section would probably be better served to be moved over into the fiction section. Yeah. But the point is, is it focuses on what can come after the notoriety or very few things, very few events out of a totality of things that can be life-changing. And then, did you want wind itself down? And there's less talk about what happens 20 years later. And you get together with a group of people that you worked with and you see that impact. If that's forgotten, I can see a world where people look at special operations and they say, you know what? I want to go test myself. And that seems like something really hard to do, which it is hard to do. But if you're going to go to a bus as an example, as just a crucible to test yourself and you don't realize that that occupation is designed for men to go and hunt down other men where they live in their houses, in their bedrooms, you're missing what the end state of that journey is going to be. And I don't want the seal teams, and I'm not saying it is this way, but I don't want the seal teams full of people that are just there to see if they can do a hard thing. Yeah, I want them to be there for people who are there for the right reason and purpose. And both can exist, obviously. But if you don't talk about the consequence, it can make it seem like, oh, this is like a really hard thing that I can do. And then I can move on from there. Maybe if you're not asked to go do those things for real, but if you are, you better see belt in for the rest of your life for the cost of what that does to you. Yes, and that cost will last with you for the rest of your life. I believe how deep those wounds go. For me, I can speak on my behalf and other believers. When I was able to surrender those things to the Lord, He took those away from me. He took them away and I saw that in Ray. I saw that in Andrew Paul. I saw that in Cowie. Those guys are all believers. And over the years, they've surrendered these things to Jesus. And that's what's helped me. And again, I'm just speaking on my behalf for sure. And there are people that are able to process and get rid of those things by talking about it. Like we did, okay? What we did wasn't a religious gathering, which I don't like the word religious, because religion, a lot of religions, it's rules, right? Do this, you get this, do this, you get this. For me, it's about relationship. It's a term that's been hijacked. Yes, 100%. So it's that relationship aspect. But so this was not like a ministry type of get together. Like my buddy, my buddy, PJ, has a foundation called therapeutic recreation group or TRG. But what therapy a recreation group does is brings veterans together and facilitates what our platoon just did. And I got to go on a hunt with him with my best friend, Mike Mitchell. Combat infantry officer in the Marine Corps had done some or just halacious things in combat. He shared his story on my podcast. And it was hard to hear because that's one of my best friends who I've been walking with the Lord with. His wife, Emily, are very close friends with Amanda and I. And like we have this four group, like Pastor Chris and his wife, Lindy, Pastor Tyron and Betsy, Amanda and I, Mike and Emily, the four of us, right? Just really close. They've been helping all of those three couples pouring into Amanda and I. We pour it, you know, it's just all pouring into each other. And to hear my best friend share those things on my podcast was really hard. And then when we go do this thing with PJ's group, TRG, I recognize I'm like, wow, the power of what he's doing is just bringing guys together. Facilitated on a hunt that's sponsored by these amazing business people. They just want to be there to hunt and just listen and they pay for everything. Like the things that TRG do, all you have to do is show up. And his PJ's requirements is combat veteran that has your stuff together. He's like, there's plenty of other great foundations doing things to help guys really heal. I don't, I want to bring guys together for a different type of healing. Like we're, all right, cool. And he does it within a radius of where all the people live so that you can build that network. It's brilliant. What I do with TRG was what we do with Delta, but two. And, and so we have to be able to facilitate these things. And when we do those things, that's where guys we, we're like, that's where guys will heal. That's what the teams need to be doing. Hey, guys, come back from deployment. Cool. Let them go on pre-to-appointment, leave, bring them together. Bring them together somewhere, let guys talk, boom. And there needs to be a regular cadence of those things. That's why PJ did what he did with TRG. Yeah. And that's why Wes created this with Arpal Tune. And Wes's big thing, one of the last nights, and it was cool. Jaco flew up Sunday night just to be with the guys. Just one night with us, let us do our whole thing until he came up. And it was obviously amazing having Jaco there. And Wes's big thing was like, this doesn't die. This can't die. We have to keep getting together, checking in on guys, going in, meeting with guys, and different stuff like that. And I think, Andy, that's what will provide the healing for the costs that will come. The cost is going to come. Yeah. And here's the other thing. It will be heavier on some people than others, depending on who that person is. That's what's gnarly about us to talk about. Lea, last night, it's sort of people who don't know my wife is a GJ2 coach. Among many things, she's a competitor as well. But, and she just pours herself into the women's community. And the trauma aspect, I mean, God, the stats are horrible about the percentage of women who will receive, beyond the receiving end of a traumatic event. Some things damage people, some things bruise people, some things they bounce off like Teflon. But you could have three people exposed to the same thing and have each of those, and you can't tell. And that's where it gets gnarly. Because you and I could see something happen. And Michael could be destroyed. That wouldn't be that hard, because obviously, I mean, look, we're talking about. But, you know, it's impossible to tell how much volume you have in your individual vessel, but where it spills over. And that's invisible. Yeah. And, you know, guys, even in the teams, as we say, we're all cut from the same cloth. I know you've heard that. Oh, for sure. Yeah. But, yeah, we're all cut from the same cloth, but there's different segments of that cloth. And different guys have different capacities. What I've found over the years, though, is we all have our own different capacities. But once you reach capacity, that's a dangerous place to be living. And if you're holding on to stuff and not letting things go, eventually you start to spill over into the people around you. And that's why we're talking about forgiveness. Forgiveness is a huge thing that provides healing. Because when I can forgive somebody else, I take something out of my cup. Now there's more space in there. Yeah. I forgive myself for something big from the past. That's a big thing that comes out of the cup. Oh, something small pops up in my brain. Let me process that, work through it. Forgiveness, cool. That's something else. And so that's how that allows me to have the capacity as a friend, as a husband, as a father, as a human to take care of the people around me. Because if I don't take care of myself, how could I take care of you? You can't. If I can't take care of myself, how am I supposed to to lead my wife and my kids, I can't. Would you hire a fat, out-of-shape personal trainer, even if they had the knowledge, but they're not applying it to their own life? - No, maybe, just 'cause I could mock them. And they couldn't go anywhere 'cause they're under contract. - Yes. - Okay. - I love it when you're talking to me. - Yes, I know. I know, as soon as I asked the question, I saw your face, I'm like, - Like, hold on. - Hold on. - This might be a chance for me to pour into them. - Hey. - Okay, yes. - You were training me? - Salad. - Salad diet, now bitch. - Yeah, who in a reverse card? But you understand what I'm saying is, you might have all the knowledge. Knowledge isn't power. - Yeah, I don't take advice. - It's financial advice from, like, broke hobos. - Yes. - As an example. - 100%. And that's why when I was hang out with my buddy, Brian Arnold, I ran a bunch of millionaires. Hey, what do you do for a living? - Yeah. - Why would I not ask those questions? - Get the beta from the beta. - You know, I love working at Ashley on Front. I'm working with companies all across the United States and the world, and I now have friendships with people in very senior positions and/or owning companies that are doing tens of millions, hundreds of millions. One of our clients' groundwork started working with us, 44 million a year in 2018. They're now doing 1.6 billion. Incredible growth. - Well, that's good at math, but that sounds good. - Yes, not a mathematician, but I like that growth. - I think those numbers are going in the right direction. - Yes, absolutely. And, you know, Flynn works with them, to help and lead the charge. My buddy Brandon Wisdom got pulled from a company to help them grow. This guy, Jeffrey, who's the number two at the company now, high school diploma helped his dad build up a basement foundation repair company, is now got acquired by groundwork's growing like to us. These are guys I get to talk to and shoot a textbook. Hey, bud, what do you think about this? Hey, what about this? Hey, who do you have doing your taxes? 'Cause I know your tax bracket has gone up like things are a little bit different. - Yes, things are a touch more complicated for your, you know, what is it? QuickBooks. - You might have outgrown QuickBooks here a little bit. - Yeah. And so, just being able to have those different things in my life because of echelon front also helps me grow. And if I can grow, then I can help the people around me as well. And I think, you know, that's the healing comes when you intentionally put in the work. And I hate that phrase, knowledge is power. It's a lie. The application of knowledge allows you to do powerful things. - Your knowledge is just knowledge. What are you gonna do with it? - Well, if you do nothing, it's useless. - And it's a disservice to the people around you. Now, I know there are team guys that hate on Joaquin Lay for writing a book and starting this company. I get it. There are always gonna be team guys that do that. - Why do you think, because of sour professional? - Well, here's, that was in grade into our brain from the very start. - Do you think that those same people didn't read men with green faces? - I know they did. The greatest documentary of all time, starring Charlie Sheen, they watched it. - Yep, 100%. - So, if they found inspiration from a medium, but this is the thing, because people, I hear these same things too, but when I try to actually find the person and be like, listen, what is your actual objection? And I will say that there are different expressions of book, movie, all of those things. And I think that some of them are, they hold the, there's a difference between silent and quiet, by the way. - Yes. - So is quiet professional, correct? - No, it's silent. - It's silent professional. - Okay. - Quiet would be though, never saying. - Oh, no, no, yeah. - I switched that mind thing. - Yeah. - I do believe that there are expressions of all of those mediums that can hold true to the silent professional. And there are expressions that can't. Extreme ownership is not a war story book that is, it is not out there in a salacious way. - No crap, there I was. - No. - Me, deep and hand grenade pins, totally. So when I can try, finally dial, it's like, do you have an issue with all books? Because I bet you've had men with green faces. And they'll say, yep, I totally, I'm like, well, why don't you have an issue with that? Because that is somebody who is also then violating the same code that you were trying to apply to Jocco and Lafe. And so if you can remove that, a lot of the times, I don't wanna say it's often jealousy, but sometimes it seems it is very rooted in that. They did something that maybe that person didn't think that they were capable of doing, so they have to tear it down. - I would agree with that. And I would say it is professional jealousy. It's connected there. Maybe not fully. Maybe some guys just, that's their standard. You know what, I respect that. - If that's literally-- - Although I better never hear a story of them trying to pick up a chick in a bar saying that they were a team guy. - So I had a buddy who was giving it to me for what I was doing at Ashaw and Front, mocking me, making fun of me. Oh, riding the coattails of Jocco and Lafe. - All the right here. You don't have to talk about me. - Okay. - All those things. But I just sat and listened. I let them vent, right? I'm like, cool, all right, cool. You know, whatever, he's venting. That's his perspective. That's his reality, cool, whatever. I don't agree with it. I'm not gonna get angry. We're not gonna fight like whatever. And I just asked him, I said, you retired, yeah, cool. Are you just retired for your rest of your life? Are you gonna drop, nah, I'm trying to get a job, cool. So the resume that you send to this company, what are you gonna put that you did for the last 20-something years? What's your first bullet point? - Oh, weird. You were a Navy SEAL. Huh, sorry, are you gonna list all your qualifications in the SEAL teams? - Don't forget awards. - And your awards and deployments and your unique special skill sets of leading under pressure. - This would be my critical only. - Critically, it only goes so far with this stuff, I can't know. - And so I just started asking those questions. And there's a little bit of a tone of sarcasm for me, for sure. But he was a friend, so you can get away with that close relationship. And by the end of it, it's like, I see what you're saying. I said, have you read Jocke or Lacebook? - No, I said, if I send you a copy, will you read it? I don't know, maybe. No, no, no, not maybe, yes or no. 'Cause I'm not gonna waste my money 'cause I'm not getting it from them for free. I'm gonna buy it on Amazon and send it to you. - And send it to you. - And he goes, yeah. And so I've done that. And I was like, the thing is, like, there's jealousy there. And then also I think guys look and they don't understand. It's a lack of education. You don't understand what we're actually doing in a national infront. We're literally trying to help people be better leaders so that they can also go home and be a better husband, a better wife. I was gonna say, a better husband, a better wife, a better father, a better mother. Just be a better human. Like that's what we want in a national infront. We wanna help people just be better versions of who they are because at the end of the day, leadership is hard but leadership is also a skill set. So if we can teach people these skill sets and they can then take that knowledge and actually apply it, why would we not do that? If you, I asked my buddy also, I was like, hey, do you teach people shooting? He goes, yeah, I'm like, why? He goes, well, people, I'm like, oh, they need the help? It's the same thing. You're investing your time to help teach people how to shoot. And the reason why they're paying you what they pay you is because you are a Navy SEAL. Correct. And you're very good at your job. You're very good at shooting. You're very good at teaching shooting. You're getting paid because of that skill set. We're getting paid because we have the ability to translate these lessons that we learned in combat to business. And also, by the way, there's no secret Navy SEAL leadership techniques. No, these concepts I truly believe have been around since humans started fighting other humans. Everything we teach is in the Bible. There's nothing new under the sun. That's what I'm saying. There's no curtain being pulled back to, oh, now they're going to use the secret Navy SEAL leadership. No, it's, there's no, and guess what? There's a lot of great leadership books out there that are not Biblically based, that are not Navy SEAL based, that are not military based. And guess what they talk about? What we talk about? The laws are combat that we teach, cover and move, building relationships. Simple. All right. Communicating a simple clearing because I met it. You were listening to my dad talk about rugby this morning. And I was connecting everything that we talked about. I loved it. I loved it. That's awesome. I could sit and talk with him all day. Everything he did in rugby is what you did in the SEAL teams. What I did, what I do in business. It's just small unit tactics. You and I have talked about detachment multiple times. That's prioritized and execute. Hey, step back, look around, see what needs to be done right now. What's going to have the greatest impact on the mission? And then decentralized command, empowering your people. And the big thing for cover and move when you're building relationships, break down the barriers of those silos. Because every organization has silos. They're very close. I mean, shit, we had them in the SEAL teams. Even in task unit bruiser, we were task unit bruiser. But guess what? You had in task unit bruiser. Charlie would do an indelible tune. I'm sure there wasn't any competition though. Now I was deltable tune. And I love life. He's my brother. I love Matt Hausby and all those guys over there, Chris, all those guys, right? But man, I'm in deltable tune. That's my button. I'm in deltable tune. They're squad one, squad two. Yep. I was in squad one. So naturally, you know, hey, fire team one, fire team two within squad one. I'm in fire team one because I'm more point man. It's so there's silos in every organization. And as you know, in business, it's crazy. It's walled off sometimes, literally walled off. And that's why I like saying breaking down. Not removing. Yep. And I know some people might be like, I say breaking down because our silos also necessary to have, hey, your roles and responsibilities, this division, this division, this, yes, absolutely. Silas keep things separated. But if in business, we have silo walls that are so big that we're not commuting. indicating like if I don't know what you are working on it's the transfer of information You don't have to physically go walk over and sit in somebody's desk, but be intentional You know what I love and I love sharing this when we got to Ramadi the first thing Jocke of life and Seth did Was they went to those soldiers and Marines that owned the battle space and said what can we do to help you guys? What can we do to help? Hey, what are you guys doing? Why are you doing it this way? How are you guys conducting operations? How can we help you? Intentionally breaking down those barriers and intentionally building relationships which takes being default aggressive to actually go do those things that actually talk To pick up the phone or maybe go walk somewhere and talk and the other like how am I supposed to know what my priorities are Probably supposed to be if I don't understand what years are because if we're both working on something bigger And we need to have alignment for the end state man. I could have all my own priorities squared away But what if my priorities are hurting yours. Oh, yeah, we're you end up fighting each other accidentally. Yeah, yeah big problem And and so just it's crazy that There is that animosity, but at the end of the day, it's like I know what we do I know it works. I know it helps people and Going back to what you said almost two hours ago like I love what I do because I've seen the impact of businesses like that company ground works You know 37 million then 48 million or 44 million the next year and then to now 1.7 billion 1.6 somewhere in there It's fantastic growth and I mean think how many people's lives have been changed by that Yeah, and then my buddy Lancet told you about door to construction implementing these things like the list of clients that I could like talk about that or implementing these things is so long and But also like what these things have done for me and helped my marriage and helped my family has has just been incredible It's it's pretty crazy, you know Cody Gandhi our instructor, you know, he started off part-time helping as a role player Just I had to have a group of guys for this field training exercise. We were running up a mission again Sorry needed like I just need some role players that I trusted that at this time Could do exactly what I needed them to do and then hey, we we grow the box eventually But hey first time working together first time doing this. Hey, I need guys that I trust that are smart capable think outside the box One of my other best friends Dane Hadelman. He came out to help as well and You know how these guys that were like all right cool and then as the program was growing We came to a point where it's like hey, we probably need to bring somebody on full-time Dane was headed into a career as a pilot for the airlines You know and in in in Dane and Cody were like my two guys that were just like running with stuff and You know offer Cody a full-time position just to run the admin logistics Operation side of the field training exercise came on board And it's cool because when he shares this story at the time he's making $500 every two weeks It's rough. Yeah, you would talk about people working through things $500 every two weeks doing demolition work Stuff which yeah, and so he come and again, I didn't know that And this is a guy I've known his whole life we grew up together and I didn't know he was in that position But he ran with it and he Implements our stuff not only does he know the things he can teach him and he implements these things and now help the Girl the company and then started with him as a junior instructor in training You know, it's just been crazy to see all these things like my buddy Danny's in that I grew up with it was a firefighter Came and started helping as again role player Part time then comes on full-time now an instructor now, but now helping lead out our first responders like Geared echelon front training. We've always had that, but Danny's taking a lead on that and Under Cody and so you know us working together through that and he's doing a phenomenal job because that's his passion He's also was on a SWAT team and so you have a guy who's a firefighter or a SWAT operator that knows these things can teach these things It's it's been unreal and so you see the growth of what we experience in combat and I'm also share all this because this has helped me This has helped me heal and and when you see when you can take these really dark bad things And you take the good from them I think we both Both might know a guy that likes the word good. Mm-hmm. You know, I can't remember his name right now. Anyways Taking the good even for those that are I'm joking is Jaco right when my favorite means is this that's like the Rose 12 pictures And it goes through the facial expressions. Oh, yes All the different facial expressions are Jaco except that it's the same picture. Yes, same picture But for guys like you and I Andy to say okay cool There's this cost. What can we take from that? What can we take and how how do we actually apply it and To see that being applied through our hands-on scenario-based leadership training through our LDAP program the must the must there's a two-day leadership event that we do with Jaco Lath and the whole team two full days of us diving deep into these things I think when this episode comes out will be in San Diego. How many of you guys don't know 20 30? This will be I think the 25th one. He's coming up in San Diego, and then we'll be in Denver in October sweet Is a two-day event and it's Jaco lay for the whole team, you know, we do battlefield reviews. We have an event called the council We do FTXs for corporate clients. We have an individual FTX program. So like you know Michael if he was like Hey, that sounds cool. He could come to a two-day field training exercise as an individual to do it And we have companies that send small groups of that to test it out before they do that corporate sense actually And then this year in November, we're launching our advanced FTX It's where it's going to be a little bit longer longer days longer in time deeper Discussions deeper debris like real-time strategic coaching with the individuals and then an actual like game plan following Like hey, here's what you do to implement it follow on calls getting in together. So it's just it's a tear up And that's for people that have been through the FTX and now we might have some more outliers like you haven't been to an FTX But you've been to three monsters. You you did the extreme ownership Academy, which is our online leadership training program that we have like we have all these things that have grown at echelon front And the intent for us at echelon front like our mission statement Core values all the things if we want to just wrap what we do into one thing impact reach Growth Is what we're doing creating impact If it's not creating impact, we don't do it We want to create impact and then if we do that right we'll reach more people yeah And if we continue to reach more people and deliver impact, we will grow The growth will come if we're delivering impact and that's our that's our intent at echelon front is to impact other people's lives and And it's just it's really cool, and I'm I'm thankful and that was probably the last gift that Sess Stone gave to me And I didn't know that until I was talking with Jaco on one of his podcast um Like I said Seth Andrew and Lave were just instrumental to my life growing as a young man and the SEAL teams very impactful Setho's my big brother and Always took care of me Loved me Gave me a lot of really good guidance When I'd veer off the path he'd pull me back Um He wanted me to win more than he wanted to win himself He loved me more than he loved himself and he did that for all of our guys and I didn't know this but Seth and I had reconnected I pushed him away I pushed all the guys away when I got out because I felt really guilty for getting out Because other guys had passed away and we're getting injured overseas and getting killed overseas And I just kept pushing pushing away because of like that guilt that I was holding on to A lot of negative self-talk Just about who I was and why I wasn't doing these things anymore um And so Seth being Seth never stopped pursuing that that relationship with me And we got reconnected and I realized How much he did love me and care about me and What I didn't know is Seth had reached out to Jaco Around the same time I was reaching out to Jaco just checking in and saying hey if there's anything I can do to help you and lay for the echelon front let me know um if there's anything just Whatever it is And I continuously was reaching out to Jaco and I used to say I still believe it to be true But he said a lot the mentor doesn't seek out the mentee It's the other way around and so I was seeking that mentorship from Jaco and life Because I genuinely wanted to help them because I saw the impact in using those principles restored my marriage And obviously my faith. I don't think it works if the If you're somebody who wants to mentor you the other person has to want it As much as you do otherwise, it's not going to work. Yeah, it'd be so frustrating Have you made that mistake with people? Oh, yeah, where you were pouring into them And you wanted them to win more than they wanted to win One of the launches I live by is don't want more for people than they want for themselves. That's good Yeah, I've made that mistake. Yeah, and so it's not bad to do so. No, it's not just where you're directing your energy It's just a reminder to me. I'm not saying people shouldn't care about others. No, I yes. Yeah, but it can be - He was construed with it. - What I realized, what had happened, when I looked at things through the lens of extreme ownership, I wasn't aligned with those people 'cause I wasn't communicating with them regularly. It was lack of communication from my side, which had those things fall apart, which, again, that's on me, a hundred percent. But I was reaching out to Jaco. What I didn't know is that Seth was also talking to Jaco and said, "Hey, I think J.P. could use some help. He needs something new, he needs a new mission." And that's what triggered Jaco reaching out to me. - That's awesome. - And when I say that was his last gift to me, there was others little things, but that was the last one that changed my life. And Seth passed away on September 30th, 2017. And that was devastating, man. - Yeah. - I was talking to him that morning. And he was headed up on a jump. - Yeah. - Doing a base jump. - No, it was a balloon jump, a simulator. - Yeah, a base jump out of a balloon. - Which is not technically a base jump. - Oh, okay. - Well, no, what you're saying isn't wrong. He was wearing base jumping equipment and it's a really good training tool. It doesn't meet the stupid guy building a tennis spanner earth, but it's a zero airspeed jump. - Yeah. And I was on Instagram messaging him, messaging with him that morning. And the last thing I said to him was, hit me up when you're done for the day, bud. And then I got a call from Lave Babin, a few hours later, and I see Lave calling me. I'm all happy, it's a Lave, it's my buddy, it's my boss. - Arguably the most recognizable voice on earth. - Yes, Texas Batman. - You eat on any radio? You're like, that's Lave. - Yeah, anything. Back in the day, when he was on Fox News a lot with Jaco, and he just, oh, he's on TV. - This single most recognizable voice I think I've ever heard. - It's amazing. - I mean, he can make hundreds of millions of dollars just reading people's books. - Probably, yeah. - But I see Lave calling, this is one, my close friend, but also my boss, so I keep that separation, but when I see Lave calling, I'm happy. I see Jaco calling, I'm happy, you know? So I pick up the phone, hey, Lave, he's like, AJP, and it was that tone that I knew. It was the same thing when Carlos Mendes called me to tell me that Brad Caffinary passed away. The same tone, hey, JP, and I knew, and, yeah, he told me that set the past away, and there was, I don't remember anything else that was really said. I said, okay, I wasn't gonna start reaching out to the guys. I called Amanda, 'cause at the time she was working at her shop, share a little place in South Haven, Mississippi, or beer, liquor, wine, accessory store, cool little place. And I called her, I said, hey, set the past away, I need to, I need to start reaching out to the guys, I don't know what to do next. And she started crying, 'cause she had gotten to meet set the few times and had gotten close with them, just 'cause that's who set this. And he made his way, he was doing a road trip across America on his motorcycle, and stopped in Memphis so that we could meet for breakfast one time. We're both we're together out in the East Coast for our upgrade awards ceremony, he was there. But you know, Amanda loved him, she loved him. She also loved him because she knew how much I loved him, and how much he loved me and took care of me. And so she calls her parents and did come pick up the kids, 'cause I was just hanging out at the house with the kids. And I would have been fine if the kids stayed there, but she just wanna give me a little bit of space, quiet, little quietness. And I'll never forget the look of my in-laws face. Like I said, I know my parents loved me, I love my parents, great parents. I've always known my in-laws loved me. But when they showed up and I saw how much they were hurt by who I lost, I knew that my in-laws loved me. - Yeah. - I always knew it, but that was like validation. 'Cause they both were like, "JPM, I'm so sorry." And they both gave me a big hug, they got the kids, took them back over to their house, and I just started working the phone. And then everything's a bore between then and San Diego. - Do we have a funeral? - I'm just, and make a way out to San Diego, and you had the honor of staying to watch over Seth at the funeral home. Everyone's coming in and out. And Jocco and Leif were like the last two guys to show up. Everyone kind of just cleared out and gave it to the three of us. And what really hurt me at that moment was seeing the pain on Jocco's face and Leif's face. These are two guys that have always taken care of me. And to see them hurting, and I couldn't do anything to help, I couldn't take care of my leadership was really hard. There was nothing I could do physically. - Yeah. - And so we spent some time in there. It took off a bracelet that I had on my wrist, that I had the names of all the guys previously. That had been killed, put it in the casket, and Leif put a few things in there that was a significance to him and Seth. Jocco presented Seth with his black belt into his casket. And he just sat there and he broke his silence by saying we will not fail. We will not fail Seth because he never failed us, and we will not fail the rest of the guys because they never failed us. And those words will always stick with me to it until my last breath, and I go to heaven. And I get a C-Seth and Mikey and Mark and Ryan and Chris and Aaron and JT and Brad and all these guys, right? Scott and my buddy Luke and all these guys. Like I know where I'm going and I know where they're at. But those words we will not fail is something I think about every day. It's a heavy burden, man. It's a very heavy burden. I don't know if it's possible, but it's certainly a noble cause. Well, I think if you have that mindset of we will not fail, that's the best way to honor them. I agree. Because it guides your decisions now. In my home office, and I'm getting these boards put back up like white boards, but they're not white, I'll just call them white boards. Well, what the hell are they marking boards? Don't tease me with something that looks like something that is something else. I just call it a white board because they made it a glass or something. Yes, just fucking say glass boards. All right. No one would know. There might be a guy who I don't know what that is. Or those glass boards for practicing karate. I don't know. That would be very dangerous. And I feel like people go to the hospital. Yeah, it's a bad business idea. I know exactly what that is. That's why you break wood boards. Yeah, anyways, the glass boards. Yeah, Andy, thank you for your correction, sir. And you're very welcome. Yeah. Anyways, harder on the art if it's going to be insulted. Sir, I was an insult. I would never insult an officer of your caliber. I laughed every day that people saluted me. I was like, God, I've got all you fuckers fooled. So once these are put up, I'm going to put these back up. And for these are like my five things so that I can think about we will not fail. Be a good Christian, be a good husband, be a good father, be a good member of echelon front, and be a good friend. You're going to do five individual boards. No, it just across the top. Okay, it's just, and I used to have a old house that we rented. I did, I was on the top. And when I'm at home, am I now current office situation? Wait, you know, I have my bookshelves behind me and off to the right, all these different books. Your book is on there as well. Sweet. Actually, it's not on the bookshelf. It's on my desk, slid off slightly in the garbage can. It's not a big deal. Absolutely not, absolutely not, absolutely not. So I have, you know, and then I have different things. Like, oh, you know, I have my helmet from when we were going through training and the teams has JP and big bold letters. And that's because Jaco was like, hey, you know, I need you to put your name on your helmet so I can find you to task you with stuff, right? So things that are important to me, my boots, my buds helmet, like a knife that Seth all gave to us. I'm sorry, that Seth gave to all of us before we deployed like different things like that. Just reminders, but when I'm sitting across from me on the wall above the window or above the doors is a flag that was flown on the day that Seth passed away. And, you know, just different things and reminders. And so those five things are reminders. Like, if I'm doing something or about to do something or want to do something that violates those, I don't need to do it. And now here's the thing, I will fail daily in all of those. And I know that I'm a flawed human. I'm a center where all centers will all fall short. But if I have those things as a visual reminder that will help me live my life to honor these guys because that is my obligation to live my life to honor these guys that poured into me. that are no longer with us. But after this last weekend of what we were able to do as a butoon, it's also my obligation to live my life to honor those guys and to support them. And that was one of the things that we got to do on Saturdays, we went and did blacksmithing work. And the reason why we went to Boseman, Montana areas because there is a guy there who has a business doing leather work for cowboys and rodeos. He was incredible, his name is Ohio Steel. And his business is steel halters, like steel, S-T-E-E-E-L-E, halters. And so he does all the leather rope work for cowboying and rodeos and everything. He's a professional rodeo guy, guy's amazing. But he's also done blacksmithing work his whole life. And in so one of the things that West did when he got out as he was transitioning through some program, is he went and did blacksmithing work with Hyle. And Hyle is an incredible teacher, massive human, as you can imagine, most blacksmiths are, very strong grips. Oh, his fingers had biceps. Like you look at his hands, unreal. Yeah. And so he put it together for us to go and we were gonna forge steel. And the premise that West could put together for this was, hey, leaving today and leaving this time together, we are going to forge ourselves into better, stronger people. We are gonna be different, we're gonna support, we're gonna do these things better. And the significance also of forging that steel was seeing something mold and change over time. But it takes a lot of hard work. Like we were talking about earlier, if you want to heal and grow as a human from this cost, it's a long path. It's not just one little twist. It's not one little hammer, it's not one little change. So we're taking these pieces of steel and he shows us what we're gonna do. And it was like, hey, we're gonna do steak flippers. We're like, all right, cool. So when you say steak flipper, almost all of our guys, we're thinking, we're gonna take something, we're gonna pound it down flat and it's gonna be like a spatula. Like I'm think redact. Yes, okay, that's what you're thinking. (laughing) Well, he shows us what we're gonna make and Doug's like, you know, Doug Wallace, he's a funny dude. He's also an incredible sniper. Very, very skilled with weapons and all that stuff. He was like, hold on, I thought we were doing something like a little pounding it thin and it's got a handle. Maybe we'll put some little grooves in it that we clearly cut with a machine. No, we're taking this piece of steel and we're gonna lengthen it out, thin it out, and we're gonna take that and we're gonna create a hook that's curved and then we're also gonna create a handle that looks like it's braided rope that's twisted with a little eye hook at the end and that's what we're gonna create. And he shows us and all the guys are like, how are we gonna go from this piece of steel? You know, we don't know how to do this, right? Yeah, and so we're in a shop and we're like, okay, this is crazy. So he shows us, which like anything in life, it's a skill set, leadership is a skill set, marriage is a skill set, communication is a skill set, blacksmithing is a skill set. Growth and healing is a skill set. Jiu-jitsu skill set, you have to put in the work, but before you put in the work, you have to be taught properly. Like your wife, learning is a skill set as well. And yes, thank you, learning is a skill set. Like your wife's ability to teach you Jitsu is at the top. And I know you know that, but I wanna reiterate that 'cause for me, it was also saying that about her as well. Her ability to teach is unmatched. There's only a few people I know that teach at a high level, that also compete at a high level, that can do what she does. And you and I are fortunate, you're married to one, and I'm learning from from me guys. So we're very blessed. And Victoria does the same as well. And my buddy, Brent, I haven't mentioned, but he's also one of our blackball coaches, former radio recon marine. He was on my podcast, shared a story. His ability to teach is unreal. So those are my three people that pour into me for Jiu-jitsu. You have your wife. Now we have this guy for blacksmith. He is like the choral bell of blacksmithing, just unreal. So he shows us, cool, this is what we're gonna make, and guys are like, cool, I mean, I believe you, but I don't understand how I go from this piece of steel to that, which is a lot of things in life. How do you go from here to there? And I think a lot of people screw up in life, 'cause they don't figure out the steps in between. You get overwhelmed from start to finish, and it's like, no, make a small iterative step, small iterative change. That's what blacksmithing is. So he shows us, and he walks us through it. He's walking it up, we've gotta heat it up. It's gotta look like this, it's gotta lay flat, boom, pull it out, bring it over here, ding, ding, ding, ding, all right, start from three quarters, work your way down, flip at 90 degrees, work your way down, go back to halfway, work it down, halfway, work it down. One quarter, one quarter, make sure you're really hitting that tip to elongate it and thin it out, cool. He's working through it effortlessly. Just working through it, and you're just seeing this transformation of real time in front of you. All right, so as you see, as it starts to get cold, it's a little bit harder. You can make some changes, but not a lot of expansion and growth. Goes back, gets a hot, comes out and just glowing hot, and he's like, yeah, this one gets a hot a little bit of time. He had like an old school, cold one. He had this like turbo from like engine, that he hooked up to a fan system, and he's like, ooh, so cheese over there. He's like, like just blowing that air in there, just, it's amazing. Boom, boom, boom, boom, elongates it. Okay, cool. Hey, here's now how we're going to do the handle, right? Okay, cool. Hey, when you're putting this in there, it's going to be hot, dip this portion in the water. Now you can hold it to have better instead of the tongs. Boom, now you're going to, you're going to chisel these lines in on each side. All right, they need to be deep. This is a long process. It takes multiple iterations to see any progress, multiple iterations, see any progress. Now, cool, now you're going to take that. You're going to create your little hook, boom, and then bending the steel and then now taking a thick piece, elongating it out, getting the curve on it. All right, now we're going to braid it. We're going to twist it and put it in the vice where it was just looked normal. Like you just looked like you have these little divots on each side. And you go get that super glowing hot. Like just, as I say, red hot and just pull it out. Okay, put the little end, like a little hook thing that you're holding onto. Put that in the water cold so that that doesn't twist, but you want to twist the top part, put it in the clamp, put this on it, and then you're twisting it to create that rope-like twist. All right, cool, now once you're done here, we're going to go to this side. We're going to elongate that out, and then we're going to create the hook. And it turned out to be this piece that was, you would literally just be able to hook your stakes with and twist. And it was absolutely awesome to be able to go from a piece of steel to this. Oh, that's awesome. I would have gone with the spatula. I do like the twist though. Metal is so crazy like that. That looks amazing, man. And then I'll send you a picture of it, and that's not cleaned up. So then now we're like cleaning it up and making it look real pretty. And then we made some nails, which was extremely difficult. It seemed super easy, extremely difficult. But, yeah, this is-- Yeah, Highland's family set up a dinner in their barn. We all walk in and look at that set up now. I got super emotional when I walked in because how intentional they were to create this moment for us. And they would have been, his wife and his daughters in West's wife had been cooking the food for us while we were doing all this stuff. And, yeah, we hung a flag for Seth, hung a flag for Mikey, and then we had that flag for us. Let me see this picture. It's the fuckers. It's a good crew, man. Yeah. Yeah, I'm sure this guy's over there on the right. Smurfs out over there. But just to be able to have that moment with these guys, and then we made these nails that look absolutely horrible, but it was really cool. And then we all made those nails and then West made a Delta Platoon brand, right? Just a turtle. And he branded it into a log. And then we all pounded each of our-- we all pounded each one of our nails that we made into that to signify-- to signify just bearing that stuff. Everything very powerful. And, bro, each guy hammered their nail into there. And then there's a few guys that weren't able to make it because, like, grandmother passed away or worked. Or, you know, like I said, my classmate, unfortunately, could make it. And so each guy in their honor did a nail in there for them. Like, hey, doing this for you, boom, put it in there. And then there's a hatchet that West had, and he gave it to Andrew Paul, who is the senior man. He was number two, Seth was number one. And he took the hatchet, boom, buried it into that piece of wood. To signify him, we're bearing the hatchet from all the BS. In between guys that may have occurred or not occurred, or maybe you thought you had issues with another guy, we're bearing that hatchet is done. And then, went out to their orchard and they had a whole dug for us. We put it in the ground and we all covered it up with dirt. I said a prayer for the guys afterwards and it was awesome. And then we went and sat in the garage, cracked open a few beers and just sat and talked and Hyall and his wife and daughters and Wes's wife sat there with us and talked and just we just talked and it was really cool to see this family so dedicated to helping veterans because how would have been an awesome guy in the military. But as he said, he's like, that wasn't God's path for me. He goes, so I do the leather work to facilitate my ability to do the blacksmithing for veterans. That's awesome. So that leather work, you know, steel halters, that's their business to fund the blacksmithing work that they do and it saved Wes's life. Because if Wes wouldn't have had that, I don't know where he would have been to fight through what he is currently fighting through right now. Because the growth of him doing that steel work every day and having a gentleman pour in to him every day, you can't calculate that. And the impact of that family on our platoon now is just unreal. And so that's what we did. And it's something we need to all figure out how to do. And then that's the thing we're trying to figure out. Like, hey, what are the next steps? How do you help guys? The thing I've been thinking about a lot is like, I just get creative, do something. You know, you know, Jocko's form of working through all this stuff is he builds and works and does things to help other people. That's what Lave and Jocko did with Extreme Ownership. They poured into Extreme Ownership. They poured into dichotomy of leadership. You know, the kids books that Jocko is written, there are there are men and women at the Naval Academy at West Point right now because they wrote, they read the Warrior Kids series. Yeah, I don't doubt it. It's it's crazy. Like that's a factual statement. Jocko is met kid men and women at the Naval Academy at West Point that are there because they read the Warrior Kids series that he wrote for kids. And then as they got older, they read Extreme Ownership. They read dichotomy of leadership. It's crazy. And your book is going to do the same. Like your book, no, it's not. It's crazy. Stop. It's not crazy. You're going to 10. We need you to six. All right. We'll bring it back down to a seven. Six is unacceptable. Seven. Okay. But man, your book is awesome. Thank you. Dave Burke also wrote a book. Need to lead. Same thing. He sat in that chair and talked about it for a couple hours. It was awesome. Yeah. Rob Jones. Haven't met Rob yet, but he even had a point. Yes, works with us. Double above the knee amputee. He's an ash on front instructor. He ran 31 marathons in 31 consecutive days in 31 different cities. To raise awareness that veterans are not broken. And we can do incredible things. And his book is called Put Your Legs On. Because every day, I guess what Rob Jones has to do. I was going to say that's not many people could title a book that appropriately. Yeah. I mean, to be a dad, he's got to put his legs on to be a husband. He's got to put his legs on to be a national on front instructor. He has to put his legs on. The only option for Rob every day is to put his legs on and move forward. And I'm thankful you and I don't have any of those types of injuries. Yeah, no kidding, man. But we got to put our gear on every day. Yeah. Just like we did in combat, we had to put our gear on. And for me as a believer, it's the same thing. That's what the Bible tells us. Put on the armor of God daily. Not, hey, you should do this once a week and think about it every single day. Because we're under attack as believers. Just like we were in in combat. Every day, you were there. You had your gear on correct? So one time I took my plates off and I deeply regretted it. Yeah. We were in an extremely high altitude. So I was appreciative then, but not at the threshold of the door getting ready to make entrance. I was like, wow. What have been worth the weight? Yep. 100%. Yeah. And, you know, in Ramadi at Camp Crigador, you know, the lessons that we learned from the soldiers and Marines, which were some of the most brave human beings I've ever worked alongside with National Guardsmen, Marines, just getting after it every day. Those guys always had their gear on. And we learned to always have your gear on. Like you couldn't walk from one building to the next at Camp Crigador without there being an inherent risk of that base being attacked or mortars or anything like that. It's just, it's crazy. Indeed. Yeah. Well, I got to get a shout out of here soon, but on the blacksmithing route. Oh, so Josh Smith is the youngest master blade Smith that has ever been. This blade is a perfect one for you. This is their war goat. War goat. Yes. I like that name. It wasn't selected by accident for you. I figured that you would appreciate this the most. So he's awesome. He I have done some forging with metal with him down in his shop and his garage. That's all I have an understanding of what you're talking about with the heat and the yeah, the changing of the metal. I figured you would appreciate one of these blades for sure. Do not cut your finger off again. I didn't fully cut it off almost. Do not cut your finger at all. Please. Just there you go. It's a sick blade. Bro. Yep. That is. I don't know what you call a pinky thing, but I like the pinky loop. That's what I call it. That's a sweet blade. We can also be for your index. I mean, I don't need to not here to tell people how to party. You know, if you ever like worked with somebody who does knife fighting. No, I carry again. Yeah. Okay. So if you see somebody holding a knife like this, run really fast. Yes. Because if there's a good rule of knife, says if somebody pulls, when I'll get the fuck out of there, because knives scare me way more than guns for sure. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, but if somebody's doing this. Yeah, the little high, but it kind of get you. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. I'm a back away. Yeah. I might be able to kick that out of your hand and then run. Yeah. Whatever. So you're seeing if they go the other way, though, you're in trouble. This is made for slashing. So cool. You put up your hands. I'm slashing through. I'm slashing through your forearms. I'm slashing through your neck. I'm slashing through your gut. I'm pushing through your stomach. I'm pushing and then coming back and stabbing. If somebody has this, go like just get out of there as fast as you can. Because also the other thing is like, I can defend myself. I can block totally. I can strike. I can push you back and then come through. Cut the inside of your bicep. Like cool. You strike. I block. I cut through your bicep. Yeah. Then your arm doesn't work anymore. Yep. Yep. No, thanks. Yeah. No, thank you. I figured you would appreciate that particular blade. Sorry. I went to level 10 again. That's fine. That you might have been in the 12th. It's hard to say. Lucas reminds me. So I do my podcast with my buddy, Lucas. Did you, did you check luggage or carry on? I'm going to check this back. We can mail it to you. No. Okay. Yeah. All right. No. I don't want to wait on this. Okay. I want to just say it with me. This is beautiful. Thank you, Ben. That's Josh. Josh Smith. I thought you said, Ben. No, Josh Smith. Oh, sharpened by. Oh, I was sharpened by Ben. That's one of his employees. But also, thank you, Ben, for sharpening the knife. Yes. Okay. Josh Smith is the founder. Jack. Thank you, Josh. The employee that thank you, Jason, from Quality Control Package by Preston and Ben Sharpened. Dude, Montana knife company. Let's go. Yeah. Just down the road of Missoula. Yeah. But which I also love that you have that in your black raffle coffee store? The knives. Yes. And you're a peril. Did you? I heard that your coffee shop was, it's pretty dope. One of the best in the nation. It's pretty dope. It's really loud and annoying for the microphone. No, it's all right. So I'm Michael. You can quiet that out. What, uh, what do you want to lead people with, man? Closing thoughts by JP. So one, I would just real quick, uh, I just want to give, you know, obviously some love to my wife that I hope I turkey articulated properly over this podcast of just how amazing she's been to me. Um, one thing I didn't share earlier, and I haven't shared this with many people. The day that Carlos called me and told me that Brad Kappner had died, I called my wife right away. And I told her that Brad had been killed. Brad was my last roommate that I had before I got out and moved, uh, Optimus Cippy to be with Amanda and our family. Um, and then I went right back into work and told my boss, uh, one of the owners of the company Jeff, incredible human. He goes, okay, there's a funeral room in San Diego and I said, yeah, he goes, I need you to go see some of our clients in San Diego in the next couple of weeks. Let me know when the trip works for you. Helping me out. Um, called a man again when I was driving. I get home and she had some James and a ginger ale for me and dinner ready for us in the family. We sat and talked and she was asked to make sure I was okay and we're just talking through stuff. Put the kids down, have some drinks and, um, you know, we had that evening together. What I didn't know for a very long time is that night she had planned on serving me divorce papers. When I came home from work that night, she was just gonna Be her there. and she was going to serve me divorce papers. And even though she was at the point of, I'm done, we're done. She's still had enough compassion and love for me. Man, to not do that. I don't know how I would have handled both those things in one night. I can speculate. Yeah, I don't know. I do not know what I would have done. Whether it was hurt myself or go downtown Beale Street and just hurt as many people as I could, I don't know. She had enough love for me as a human and as the father of her children to not hurt me more. And when I say more, she didn't hurt me. I hurt her. But she didn't want to create any of that to me. Months later, it got worse and we did get a divorce. And like I shared, we were able to get our marriage back by the grace of God and forgiveness and a lot of work, a lot of work. Yeah, that's not leave that part out and applying the principles of extreme ownership and what we are learning together in church and in counseling and in a small group through our church to actually, and actually putting it into work. And it still work, but about a year later, we got our marriage back. So I want to articulate how much I love my wife and how much she has saved me over the years and my kids as well. Like when I see my kids being good humans, loving people, serving Jesus, training Jiu Jitsu, trying their best at school and work and all these things. Like it brings me joy. I'm also thankful for the push that Jocco and Leif have always given me to be uncomfortable. You know, I, the reason why I do my podcast with Lucas is just to try to help other people. I don't want to, we talked about this earlier. I'm not trying to be Jocco. I'm not trying to be you with my podcast. I'm just trying to be the best version of who God created me to be. And so my, the intent behind my podcast was to share the lessons that I have for Meshlaw in front to help other people that will never work with Eshlaw in front to share my faith, to grow the kingdom and to help other people share their stories by interviews or, or whatever we do. We're a very small podcast, and I'm good with that. And I love it because we've led people to the Lord. There are people. It doesn't matter, man. In fact does. Yes. We've led people to the Lord. We've had people come to Eshlaw in front trainings and FTXs and musters or they're a part of Extreme Motorship Academy now or they're reading Jocco and lace books. Like, that's all I care about, you know, and like the commitment that Luke is in his wife has done to help me do those things is, is incredible. But also my team at Eshlaw in front, Cody is unreal. Like, I say the kid because he's in his thirties to see what he's done with his life and his marriage and all the other instructors that I mentioned, you know, but my FTX guys, the field training exercise guys, like Cody and Jesse and Josh and James and Joe and Brant and all these guys that commit to helping us at Eshlaw in front. Their loyalty gives me drive every day. The loyalty that Dave and Jamie have to Jocco and lace and to me gives me drive every day. The loyalty that Andrew Paul's had to me since SQT like Life Babin has had gives me that drive. And like I said, all the instructors, but what Jocco and lace is created, I'm thankful to have a seat at the table. You need to find people that are going to drive you to be a better version of who you are. But you have to decide to put in the work every day. What type of legacy are you going to leave? Because at the end of the day, each and every one of us is leaving a legacy. What is it going to be? One of the things I've learned through life, national and front, every time I lost sight of what my actual mission was at that point in my life, that's when I would make mistakes. So we have to have a clearly defined mission. You have to create a plan and you have to put in the work every single day. Easier said than done, but I think you're correct. Thank you. Thank you for this opportunity. Have you seen the title of my second book? No. I might have the cover art. I think you'll appreciate this. It's not a big deal. Hopefully I have it saved. Easily accessible here. I'm not an artist, so I might have had to have some assistance. It's a working title. It's not a big deal. Did you create that because of some of the things with your book? Oh, 100%. That's amazing. Yeah, it's titled "Extremely Limited Ownership." There are no bad leaders, only bad teams. Oh, hell yeah. How long did it take us to put this together? Like, three years of we've been chatting about getting you out here? Yeah, I'd say at least two. We'd have some dates. Shit would happen. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know. It happens. Well, we got to get you at least probably heading back towards the airport shortly. So I'm going by your store and grabbing some swag and then going to the airport because the apparel that you all have, it doesn't suck. It doesn't suck. Well, let's get you out of here then. - Cool. Thank you. - Yep.