Speaker 1today's episode is about the skill underneath almost every opportunity we get conversation vanessa van edwards has spent nearly two decades studying human behavior and her new book is called conversation her argument is that having the best idea just isn't enough people need to trust you remember you and want to keep talking to you this is a very practical episode vanessa breaks down how to move beyond small talk develop a signature question walk into a room with authority and speak to someone more powerful than you she also analyzes the way i communicate in real time listen especially for what she says about the first five words of any meeting and how the story you tell about yourself may be shaping what happens next let's get into it you so i was just in portland for an event at this iconic city block size bookstore with color-coded rooms and over a million books the place really feels like a city full of books and getting to do an event there made my trip to portland feel so special then the team and i headed to utah for another meeting and when i asked people for local recommendations everyone we spoke to told us about this very popular soda shop i finally tried one and i have to say i was more than pleasantly surprised we also stopped by the book store and we had a great time and we had a great time with the book store the first thing we did was buy another local bookstore and sign copies of my book start with yourself and we got to browse there for a little while now i love that feeling of a great bookstore where you can wander without a plan and then just suddenly lose yourself for an hour i've been traveling so much for work lately and whenever i'm in a new city i try to make the most of it and find a few local pleasures along the way if you have a busy travel schedule i'm sure you also try to make the most of your time away and that is what is so smart about airbnb you can list your space while you're away and bring in extra income to put towards your next adventure someone visiting your city gets a much more local place to land while they find their own favorite spots it's a practical way to make the most of the time that you're already away rather than letting your home just sit empty your home might be worth more than you think find out how much at airbnb.com slash host vanessa van edwards welcome to aspire thank you for having me i am really excited to have this conversation today now your new book is called conversations no pressure yeah no pressure better be good i'm fully fully ready to hear what you think about me and but reading it made me think about how many like how much in my life has been decided through a conversation and that was like so insane to me whether it is like pitching for a deal or being in some kind of a negotiation trying to figure out exactly what it is that i'm worth but like so many big pivotal conversations come out of conversations that you need to have and we talk all the time about the skills that you need to you know succeed but all of that comes from like the underlying thing of having a conversation and what struck me in your book is that you said you know and why i think the book feels so timely you said we are talking to each other all day and yet people right now report report feeling so disconnected from each other so why do you think that we're we need them more than ever i think this
Speaker 2is actually the the myth that smart people have like very smart over prepared folks they're like it's all about my ideas it's not my knowledge and that's very important so we go to school we prep we have the perfect pitch deck we have the perfect script we think of all the answers the data the research but we forget that before we get to the presentation we have that horrible thing called small talk small talk conversation is often overlooked but actually it is a social lubricant if you can have that little bit of banter that little bit of bonding small talk even for two or three minutes before a zoom call it makes everything smoother and the curse of smart people is they underestimate how important that small talk is and so they don't realize oh my gosh why is this so awkward and they get stopped before they even get to their idea yeah you see
Speaker 1that so much it's funny you say that bad conversation is expensive what do you think it costs us the most
Speaker 2it costs us everything it costs us opportunities it costs us soulmates it costs us friends it costs us family it costs us friends it costs us friends it costs us friends you know why it's easy we have a lot of work to do right if we're going into a meeting or making a big decision we have a lot of things going on we have high cognitive load if the conversation is also difficult and it's a little bit awkward and what was your kid's name and how are you how's it going how was the weekend how's the weather it's already hard to communicate with you and so therefore people are going to want to talk to you less they're going to be less bonded to you they're going to want to call you less often they're going to dread the meeting with you and so therefore people are going to want to talk to you less they're going to want to call you I think that this is the key the reason why I wrote this book is because I want when people see your name on their calendar they're like oh yeah that's going to be good that's going to be easy that's going to be fun oh yeah before they even get to the idea and in that way I think that if we don't have good conversation it's costing us our success it is almost impossible to hit your goals especially professionally socially and romantically if we cannot deeply connect with people quickly and there is a difference between good conversation and bad conversation
Speaker 1oh yeah there is there is a big difference so someone is listening yeah right now yeah and they are bad at the art of conversation what are the signs that you would tell them to notice first or what would they notice first first of all if
Speaker 2this is you this was me I'm a recovering awkward person I used to suck at conversation sometimes when I'm very very awkward I still do but very rarely first thing is we have to learn that conversation is a skill I think I used to think that you were born with it or you weren't right you either had the art of the gab or you didn't know conversation is a social skill not only is it a social skill it is a combination of micro social skills meaning a really good conversationalist and I spent the last 20 years studying master conversationalists what is it that makes someone just easy to talk to eloquent elegant they're funny but also they listen well in that a master conversationalist they're excellent at listening but they're also excellent at storytelling they're also excellent at reading the room they know when to pivot they're very good at transition there's all these micro skills so what I would say is if you're bad at conversation first of all don't worry we can help we can do it right now we're gonna do it right now oh we're gonna do it right now we can do it an hour we're gonna do it we're gonna do it 75 minutes 90 minutes we can do it you know you're having bad conversation if you feel socially exhausted and again this is what I see most of my students are highly ambitious very smart talented folks and they are so tired not always only from the work they are tired from what comes before the work they are exhausted by that small talk on the way to their office they're exhausted by does my team actually feel connected they're like another networking event I just can't they're exhausted because they're in the green room or they're backstage at a conference they're like I don't know how to connect with this person but I know I should I think that's the critical thing is you know you should we just have to have
Speaker 1a plan we just have to learn it you just need to have a plan and I love that you say anyone can learn this stuff because I do think certainly like I think about it in my own company certain people will be like I'm so bad at that I could never be at a conference I never know how to initiate conversation I never want to start the meeting yeah and when you say that it can be learned I mean it's so specific the skills that you can learn you've been listening to me for a few minutes and we had a little chat outside what have you already noticed about the way that I
Speaker 2communicate so I I listen to your interviews and you have a wonderfully natural and assertively curious style when you're curious you say it right away and by the way that is a sign of charismatic people so if they have a question they cannot wait to ask it I get the sense that if you want to ask it you're like I gotta ask it right right now good conversationalists are additive they are constantly adding by following up by tell me more by their own story by a non-verbal so you're a nodder so you'll nod with me when someone does a slow triple nod the other person speaks 67 percent longer isn't that so
Speaker 1good I just think it's so I mean there's so much to glean from everything that you are teaching all the time and I love the combination of conversation and the that's not how you are naturally it can be you know you make it into such a it's such a hardship right and those things don't get easier and that's why I really knew that I wanted to have you on the show because again as somebody who used to be a certain way you've actually taught yourself these skills so what could I do in the next 60 minutes that would make this conversation better for you what's your goal I want to make sure that everybody listening gets the benefit of your experience and that they can take away at least a little bit of your experience and that they can take away at least a one thing that's going to make them a better conversation is for the pure purpose of progression in their life right because again this is not just about work career businesses to your point just having better conversations with your spouse with the people that you love with your kids I think that we all have been in a situation you know I always say to my
Speaker 2children eye contact right I think my awkwardness and I share this you know a lot of the communication device is given by extroverts and I am not an extrovert and so extroverts can can force themselves just to be higher energy they can force themselves smile introverts and ambiverts I'm an ambivert I'm somewhere in between we can't we're not we're not as good or we do it at great cost yes or we dial up and we pretend and we are depleting our internal energy so if you have an introverted or ambiverted kid so I have I have I have two ambiverts leaning one leaning introvert I have a little little cat
Speaker 1like I have three introverts and a humongous extrovert is it your youngest My youngest, of course.
Speaker 2She's nuts. Crazy shot. I love birthright shot. Okay, so it's really important for you as a mom because you've learned, you have to do these skills to get ahead, right? You have to make eye contact. We want to make a handshake. I also will tell my kids, sometimes stand like you're wearing a cape, right? Because otherwise you say, sit up straight. Yeah. Sit up straight. But if you're like, what would you do if you're wearing a cape? They immediately put their shoulders down, their head up. So one, we're trying to give them goals. So you asked me, how can I make this conversation better? Which is lovely. And I'm like, what's your goal for the conversation? Because if your goal was to be, for us to bond, we would have a totally different conversation, which would be lovely. Totally. But we're here for you. We're on a podcast. Right, we're here for you. Yes. Right, so it's like, okay, no, it's to be as helpful as possible. What I would say is, whatever you are worrying about from a conversation perspective, ask it. Because likely someone at home is as well. And think of it as an introvert, like your most introverted kid. What would they be asking when they're entering the workforce? When they would be trying to make their big deal, when they're trying to meet their soulmate. You know, I dedicated my book to my daughters because I don't want them to ever have an awkward conversation. But I think that we're losing practice. Oh, we are. All of us, not just littles, like all of us. All of us. We are talking to technology more than we're talking to each other. You know, we're talking to AI more than we're talking to each other in some cases.
Speaker 1We're leaving voice notes and audio notes instead of even like bothering to pick up the phone. And voice notes are not conversation. No, they are not. They are entirely one-sided. And I love it.
Speaker 2I'm going to send as many 10-minute voices again. But it's not real conversation. And it doesn't give you as much of the conversation as it does. It doesn't give you as much of the conversation. It doesn't give you that good chemistry, right? Like when you're in good conversation, like, yes, it will get you ahead. It will get you opportunity. But when you're in a joyful conversation, you're like, I feel heard. I feel seen. I feel chosen. I feel loved. You also feel that joy of like, I'm connected. So it's also the joy. It's that too.
Speaker 1That's so important. I mean, you've been studying this for decades. How linked is charisma to being a good conversationalist?
Speaker 2So charisma, I define charisma based on some really fascinating research out of Princeton, which is charisma is a blend. A perfect blend of warmth and competence. Very highly charismatic people. What they're doing in conversation is they're signaling first warmth. You can trust me. You can open up to me. I'm here for you without judgment, but also competence. I'm going to get it done. I'm going to listen well. You can rely on me. I'm effective. And so charisma is that blend is beautiful in conversation, but it's not essential. Meaning you can have a very fun conversation with your Uber driver and not worry about having warmth and competence. So actually, I think that we can unlink them in the sense of good conversation is down to a blueprint. And I literally think of conversation in this map. Every good conversation has three levels. And it's your choice if you want to do all three levels. The first level in all basic conversation is called general traits. That's like when we first meet, we're going, okay, where are you from? What did you do? Married, got any kids? Our brain has like a social hierarchy. We actually have to pass through that level first before we can get deeper. It's why we have that boring small talk. The problem is we tend to get trapped in that level. That's what happens to people. Right. So we're like, weather, how are those kids? How was this morning? You do, yeah. Okay, so my goal in most conversation is to get to level two if I can. Level two is where things get more interesting. I think it's where bonds connect, where bonds happen. So this is personal concerns. So personal concerns are motivations, core values, personality traits, goals. When you know this about a person, you know what drives them. You know what worries them. I think really productive, work conversations are when you know what the other person's working on, you know their goals, you know what drives them. But you also know what hangs them up, you know what's worrying them, what's keeping them back. Give me an example of a level two question. Love it. Okay, so let's, can I do the bad and then the good? Yes, please. Okay, so here's the bad. Great. So like the bad is you hop on a team call and you really, you're like, okay, we have this few minutes of banter, this three minutes. I want to make it not a waste of time where I would have wished I could check my email.
Speaker 1Because the banter is important at the top of a conversation, right? It is really important. I'm just going to go out on a limb and say, I think English people are better at it. Oh, I like it. Let's go. I mean,
Speaker 2we banter, like that's what we do. And witty, witty. I mean, I can't. The jokes don't always banter. You don't know, we'll get mad. I'll let you know that first hand. They're not always working. Well, I hope that we can catch up. I hope that we can catch up. It's a challenge. It's true though. And also your banter is really good. Okay, so a really bad way to do that would be you get into a call and you're trying, but you're like, um, so? How's it going? Oh, good. Busy, busy, busy. How about you? Yeah, I'm busy too. Okay, let's get started. Horrible, right? So what you did is you just went on social script. You weren't sure what to do. So you asked a very socially scripted autopilot question. How's it going? What's going on? What's up? And the brain is like, oh, I can't say anything deep. So I'm gonna say nothing at all. A good version of that would be, oh, what's your biggest win this week? Or tell me something good. So jumping to tell me something good. Tell me something good. Tell me something good, right? How are you? Like, tell me something good. Yes. Or what's your biggest win, right? They're both very positive. Now, this is important, I think, culturally on a team is you have to have enough psychological safety where if someone is good, they can tell you and they can brag about it. Like, what's your biggest win this week? And someone's like, oh man, I just killed these numbers or like my daughter did great in soccer, whatever. But if something is not good, they can be like, oh, it's been a week. Let me tell you. Right? So it also takes-
Speaker 1Because that you need in business, right? I never want to be in a meeting where all we're sharing is good news and then you leave and I get like this disastrous email.
Speaker 2I'm like, why don't you tell me? And by the way, this is the myth that we have as I think managers, managers often think that conversation is counterproductive. No, good conversation opens up productivity. If someone has rapport, they're able to say, listen, I got to tell you, I got to tell you something. Last week's report and the client, it did not go as we thought. Conversation actually opens people up, to be more honest. It actually creates more psychological safety. A team that is connected, that knows each other's, level one and then our basic goals, they're going to be more open with collaboration. They're going to share things more often and they're also going to enjoy their work more. So you have to have psychological safety. You ask for good, but there's always permission that if it's bad, we share it.
Speaker 1Right. So you've done the level one and that's a must because you're never going to get to level two without it. So you have the frivolous conversation, but you move straight into level two and you try to do it with a positive question.
Speaker 2If you can, or I wouldn't even say positive. I would say emotion. So one thing I noticed when I was studying, like master conversationalists, is what they are very good at is eliciting precise emotions. So they wouldn't say something like, so, you know, you grew up around here. Oh, and what's your favorite coffee shop around here? Okay. Favorite is all right. But what's the coziest coffee shop around here? Ah, specificity. Right. They're asking for a specific state and that is jumping from level one to level two. Asking someone, oh, you know, you grew up in LA. What's your like favorite family restaurant that you would always go with your family? That is a, a far better question than what's your favorite restaurant around here. So this is a hard ask, right? This is, we're putting more energy into conversation. This is not easy, but we're trying to elicit unique and specific emotions that you want associated with you. With you. That's the point. Right. So I love like exciting. I like winning. I'm very competitive, right? So I'm like, what's your win? What's your big goal? What's your side hustle, right? Like what's your personal passion? Those are my kinds of questions, but I believe, and this is level two, everyone should have a signature question. A signature question is a topic that you like to discuss with emotions you like to feel in conversation. You want to create a signature set of questions around your interests that you can bring up in those first few minutes of small talk and then be known for it.
Speaker 1I go back to this question about charisma because I think that people always think you've either got it or you don't. And what you're saying is if you learn to ask the right questions and you frame them in a way that actually is meaningful to you, you're going to be more charismatic in the end. In the exchange.
Speaker 2Yes. Okay. Actually, there's two sides of this. Let's get advanced. So the first side is asking emotion, specifically emotional listening questions. That's great. And also asking for stories, not facts. Okay. So a mistake that people make in conversations are all about the facts. So how was the weekend? How many kids? Or how long have you lived here? Right? Like very fact-based. The brain is dead on that, right? There's nothing to grip. Asking for stories, that's better. And even better, it's also sharing. So asking is part one, but sharing is part two. And this is the hard part. You got to give something. This is the hard part, is we also love really good stories. So sharing stories, not facts, when you are given a boring question, people are going to ask you, how's it going? They're going to ask you autopilot questions. You should be ready to break the script and give dopamine with your answer. And I know that this is really hard. And there's a very fine line, I think, between performing and being authentic. So these stories have to be real, or they have to be authentic. I thought Dick Levy, you have to authentically like sharing them. But when someone asks you, how's it going? Not answering, busy, but good. But instead giving them a story, like, so ask me, how's it going? How's it going? Book launch, we're 12 days out. And you'll never believe, but last week. And don't you want to know? Then we're in, then we're in. And don't you want to know what that is? A hundred percent. What is it? What happened last week? Right, so I just, in very, it doesn't have to be long, right? And in fact, most answers should be
Speaker 1between 15 and 30 seconds. Oh, this is one part in your book that I really like. Okay. But like, oh my goodness, I think I'm such a long talker. The 15, 20, I was like, I'm like a minute and a half. Me too, me too, girl. Me too, me too, me too. Let's talk a little bit about that because you said like a good exchange really happens like between 15, 30 seconds, 15, 30 seconds. And I'm killing that. Okay, so this is, I know, I know.
Speaker 2Me too, me too. So this is the candor corpus, one of the largest databases on conversation. So let's go to the research and let's go to nuance. So the research says 15 to 30 seconds is about average for turn-taking, right? So how's it going? Oh, I had book launch. It's going crazy. You never believe what happened last week. So-and-so and so-and-so and so-and-so. They picked it for this. That could be 15, 30 seconds. 45 seconds is still unbelievable. okay. It's just getting the longer side. If you are going over 45 seconds, it's gotta be juicy. It's going to be juicy. See, I'm full of juice. That's what I am. That's what I'm saying. I have tea. And you know, it's not juicy. My hot take talking about how busy you are. It's the least juicy. And I hear it the most often with highly successful people. And by the way, I actually went to the research on this. Okay. The research says that talking about how busy you are makes people think you are less competent, which is very, very hard for successful people to swallow because we think talking about how busy we are actually makes us sound more successful, more important. No. When we hear about how stressful and busy someone is, we actually think they're less competent. So the one thing that's not juicy is giving someone your schedule. You don't have to be positive all the time. I call this conversational confetti. It's a silly way to think about this. If you're about to say something juicy, tell me first. So if something crazy happened to you last week, don't just dive into it. No, you're going to be like, it's a crazy thing happened. And then you're hooked. You're in. You're in. Now it has to be actually crazy. You can't be like the craziest thing happened. I got coffee. No, that's not crazy. So like, we also have to think meta a little bit in like preparing like, wow, that was so weird. That was embarrassing. That was crazy. And then saying it. And that conversational confetti, you're competing with the feed, right? Like I hate to say it, we are directly competing against the, the contagion of social media. And so we also have to be very emotionally contagious.
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Speaker 4Hi, everyone. This is Kara Swisher. And I'm Scott Galloway. And we want to tell you about Pivot, our twice-weekly podcast. That's right, Kara. What a thrill. It's a chance for us to break down all the big things happening in tech, business, and politics. Yes. And I keep you in check so people can make it through each episode, whether it's digging into constant changes in the world of AI and, or trying to keep up with whatever the fuck Elon is doing. We're here to give you our take on all of that. Every Tuesday and Friday morning, we drop a new episode about some of the major stories of the moment. And Scott is a prediction machine gazing into his crystal ball to tell you about where it's all heading. That's right. So if that sounds like a good time for you, especially Mr. That's Right, you can follow us on your favorite podcast app to get new episodes every week.
Speaker 1It's interesting because you did learn how bad conversation can actually cost you quite a lot in your career. Will you just talk about that? Because I know you lost out on a huge opportunity. And I do think it's important for people to contextualize like how much being a good conversationalist can be so advantageous, but equally, if it's not something you work on, it can cost you dearly.
Speaker 2And it will cost you when you least expect it. Right. Even worse. So I had a video go viral. I started getting following. Instagram wasn't around back then. So it was just YouTube and Facebook. I started getting viral and I got offered a television deal. And we had an agent, a fancy agent. And we were talking to producers. We had this whole thing set up. We had a really, really cool show idea based on what I was doing. And they say, you know, the big execs at the studio, I will not mention the studio, want to meet you just to get a little before we sign the deal. And I was really prepared for the pitch. Of course. Right. I was like, I had a slide deck with all the stuff for the show. And my dad was like, I'm going to sign the deal. And I was like, I'm going to sign the deal. And how we were going to hit. And like, this is a huge audience. I was ready for that. What I was not ready for was that banter before the meeting started. And so I get there and I was greeted by a sea of execs. Right. And they're like, oh, we just want to get to know you. I was like, because I was ready for the pitch, but I wasn't ready to be known. And I did not know how to connect quickly. Quickly. I keep adding because yeah, I can do it on a date. I could do it with a long dinner with friends, but quickly, with investors, when it matters, when it really matters and answering questions in an exciting, but interesting way, that's actually real and authentic is very hard. And I was underprepared. So we start the small talk and I, I know it's going badly. I know it's going badly. I could, they're like, you know, so tell us, tell us about you. Huh? By the way, everyone watching, please be prepared for three questions. You should know how to answer. What's your story? When someone asks you, what's your story? Tell me about you. Be ready because you're going to be asked that question when you are. You're going to be asked that question by someone who is very quickly. They're trying to gauge who are you be ready for it. Second question. What do you do? It's, it's a sneaker and we answer it apologetically. So many people, I hear them say, Oh, I'm just a little, or they answer it like a social script or they read the
Speaker 1resume more specifically. Women answer it in a negative way. Do you think, or am I wrong?
Speaker 2I think more specifically in an apologetic way or in a way that they don't want to brag. And so they under sell, they undersell themselves. Right. And they give it away with vocal power. So I often will hear women ask what they do, not say what they do. So they go up at the end of their sentence. So instead of saying, they're asking. So someone will say, what do you do? Oh, I'm, I'm just in marketing. Do you hear me ask? Oh, I heard it loud and clear. This is really important. It's really important. The way you say something matters just as much as what you say. A million percent. But go back to those three questions. If you want everyone to know, what's your story? So what's your story? Be ready for that answer. Be ready for a really tight 45 second answer to tell a story with a little bit of emotion. What do you do? Say it, don't ask it and make sure you're giving them a hook. Be easy to talk to. If you say I'm just in marketing, you just put the onus on them. Yeah. Now they're like, uh, what kind of marketing? Right. Like give us a little, a little bit of story. Why you love it. Why you hate it. Why it's embarrassing. What you're working on. Like something that's going to bring you, you know, answer with your goal project. Yeah. Answer what you're trying to do. Right. It levels up to level two. If you answer with a goal, right. Right. And the third one is the catch-all for what's up. And this is the ever changing answer. So I want you to be living a life that is so fun and so interesting and so fulfilling that that answer is always different and always authentic and always easy. But that means watching things that other people aren't watching. That means getting off your feed. That means learning new things. That means trying new things. That means reading books that maybe are super weird or super out there. Interested and interesting. I think the only way to be interesting is to live an interesting life.
Speaker 1Facts. I mean, to me, it's so simple.
Speaker 2And even as you say it, it's like, I'm like, yeah. And I say that because I say that, yes, I want you to be conversationally charismatic. Like I know that if you're living in an interesting life that you're going to be interesting, but also I want that for you too. Right. If you're like, I need more to talk about in my life. If you're like, wow, I am dreading conversation. I find it really hard to come up with signature questions. And as I don't have any signature questions, if we say, okay, how could I live a life that's interesting to talk about? There's my, really my secret goal there is to give you some more joy, is to give you some more meaning. Because I think that if you have meaning in your life of people or things that you're doing or goals that you have, it's going to come into your conversation. And that's only going to benefit your conversation and yourself. How much of that is coming from
Speaker 1how we're living right now at this moment in time, right? Because if you do a lot of your work from home and everyone knows what I'm going to say. So like, fine, my audience understands, but if you do a lot of your work from home or a lot of your work to a screen and you have your food delivered to your house and therefore like your human interactions are reasonably limited, like what is that doing to our ability to have interesting conversations and then interesting
Speaker 2lives? It's 80% of the reason why we are feeling burnt out. We are feeling bored. We are feeling overwhelmed because the chemicals that we get from human to human connection cannot be replicated to other places. No. We don't feel, we don't feel loved by technology. We need to feel loved. We don't feel understood by technology. AI can tell you, good job. I hear you. But AI is not going to give you the deep feeling of feeling understood by another person. It does not give you meaning. And so I think we have to fight this. And this is my big push is we are focused so much on our bodies and that's wonderful. Fitness and our health and our protocols. And I love all of it. But we have to go to the social gym. We are also getting conversationally flabby. We are getting socially weak and we have to start thinking about conversation like reps. The first couple of times you do a pushup is really hard. It hurts and it sucks. But the more you do it, the stronger you get. Conversation is, it could be a little awkward, right? Some of the tips in my book, they are not meant to make you feel comfortable, right? Some of them are a little bit hard. They take a little bit, they take courage, but it's the same thing as going to the
Speaker 1gym. I also want you to just speak to the success piece of this all, because at the top of this, and as I said to you, when I was reading your book, I was like, wow, like the biggest moments and the biggest leaps I've taken in my career have absolutely come out of like an important conversation. Pitching a business, asking the people to invest in you, being able to move yourself up in the world comes from you advocating for yourself, having great conversations, negotiating on your own behalf. And you do that. Through talking. There is no other way.
Speaker 2I have a question for you. So you have built this incredible empire. how many of your relationships with people happened outside the boardroom? Like, were you happy houring with them? Were you going to parties with them? Like, I wanted to ask you, like, how much of it was like casually social?
Speaker 1I would say quite a lot is casually social, but also that's my business, right? So in the fashion business, you'll be at a show, you'll be at an after show party, you'll go and see a presentation. Part of our work is being inspired. So you'll go to a gallery with someone, you'll go to a concert, right? That's not different. It's outside of the boardroom. But it's not, but it's not.
Speaker 2Interesting. Everyone's business is social. I love that you say that. All of our business is that. You don't have a unique business. And all of those conversations that you had at a party, networking, waiting for the show to start, those were all going towards your investment. The really successful people, they are making connections out of the office just as much as in the office. They're making conversations at lunch, picking up their food, when they're walking in the building, in the elevator. I also think, what is a good elevator conversation? We talk about an elevator pitch. No, that is long ago. That is old school. No. What if you're in the elevator with someone you kind of see occasionally, or your boss? What are you saying? Don't ask, how's it going? If you ask, how's it going? They will not remember you. What do you ask? Well, this is what's your goal. What's your goal? So if you're in an elevator with your boss, you have to ask yourself, what's the goal? Is the goal to get to know them more? Ask. The goal is to get to know them more. The goal is for them to know me more.
Speaker 1Okay. Right? That's what you want. It's like, if somebody's in the elevator with me, they need me to remember who they are. Okay. Okay. I have a different perspective. Oh, go on, tell me.
Speaker 2Okay. Okay. I think that there are two different kinds of VIPs. I would consider you a VIP. I would consider any manager as a VIP that the title of this chapter is how to talk to your boss or a celebrity or a VIP. Okay. There are two types. And I've known this because I've interacted with a lot of VIPs and celebrities. And you have too. Tell me if you agree with me. I think there are two types. One are the entertainers. Entertainers, they love to share, right? They want to tell you the story. They want to make you laugh. They love hearing other people laugh. They want to share something where you're like, oh, wow. No way, right? They're the sharers. They love getting really good questions and having very loud listeners. A loud listener is a loud laugher. They nod a lot. They're the ones who are going, oh, no way. Wow. Uh-huh. Right? Eyebrow raises, right? Like that. They're loud listeners. The other type, I think this is actually most VIPs, bosses, and celebrities are a lot of appreciators. This is actually me. I would be so upset if in an elevator, you asked me a hard question. Really? I would be like, don't want to talk to her again. Kind of not really. Kind of not really. Because you know why? I am an appreciator. Oh, interesting. I just want to listen. Yeah, fair. I know it's weird because I'm on a podcast, but like, I just want to hear your stories. So, appreciators are the types of VIPs where they want to be entertained. They want you to tell them. You to tell. What's the most interesting thing? What's the most interesting thing that happened to you this weekend? What's the funny thing? What's the thing you learned about our client? You're not going to believe this customer review. You're not going to believe. Like when my team is like, oh my gosh, so last week, one of our students emailed in and she had this great success story. You just made my morning. But if they were like, what's your greatest success for the week? No. You don't want that. I don't want it because I want to listen. So, I actually think it is different. And this is the nuance of conversation, right? Like there's a little bit of nuance here. What is your goal? Is your goal to bond and connect? Is your goal to learn about them? Is your goal to share about you? So, I think you have to figure out. You really have to figure it out.
Speaker 1Which one are they? I'm thinking about this as like my single biggest mistake that I've ever made in conversation. It's a good one. Tell me. I am obsessed. Wait, you said conversational confetti.
Speaker 2Oh, I did? Wait, this is the single biggest mistake I've ever made in conversation? What is it? I can't leave. What is it?
Speaker 1It was Oprah Winfrey. But you have to understand what Oprah is for me. Like the queen, the king, the moon, the sun, the stars. What's all? So, and here's the thing. I invited the conversation. So, I'm in a party. I'm at like some, you know, Diamond Fustenberg's Oscar party. Again, not to be overlooked. A party is an important conversation. Not to be overlooked. Right. So, I'm there. And I'm feeling myself good. And Oprah walks past me because she doesn't know me. And Gail kind of follows. And I know Gail.
Speaker 2I know Gail. Does Oprah smell good?
Speaker 1Gail's a delight. She always smells good. So, I say, Gail, you've got to introduce me to Oprah. But Oprah's up the road now, right? And so, Gail goes, Oprah. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. I have sunglasses on. She gets to me in like 30 seconds. And me, I, conversation confetti-er, go blank. No, no. And I have sunglasses on. And I don't take the sunglasses off. No, no, I can't. And I like kind of like maybe cry a little bit. No. And I like, just because. And she's holding my hand, stroking my hand. Like, poor girl. And it was my biggest choke. So. Vanessa Van Edwards of excellence. What should I have done? Okay. What should people do when they meet the person of their dreams? Or indeed, if you're meeting a boss or somebody that, you know, you really admire and you want to make a great first impression. What should those people do?
Speaker 2Okay. So, one, it's okay. It's okay. I bet you she's used to it. It wasn't okay. But I bet you she's used to it. I made up for it. She was petting you, right? I made up for it. She was probably giving you oxytocin. Calm down. It's okay.
Speaker 1She's like, stop crying on me.
Speaker 2And take your sunglasses off. Okay. So, I think the first thing is the mistake people make is they compliment. And I, I, I, not like this. I don't, I don't, I don't like it. Oh, I love yous. No, I love yous. No, I love you. You're my greatest hero. I've been waiting. Oh my God, I love you so much. I've been watching you since I was a kid. Oh my God. My favorite thing you ever did was. Okay. So, don't do that. Don't do that. And I, I love an authentic compliment, but I think, especially for a VIP, it, it's, it's hard to respond to that. It actually puts a lot of conversation weight on them. Right. We're trying to be easy to talk to. Okay. So, one is I would actually wait on the compliment. Um, and you have, you have two choices and I would, I have one that I prefer, but I'm going to give you two choices because it depends if they're an entertainer or appreciator. Like, I don't know Oprah. Do you know if Oprah is an entertainer or appreciator? Does she like to listen or does she like to talk? I think she probably is an entertainer. Okay. So, for her. I think she can do both because she's Oprah. But I would like. She can do whatever she wants. She's a goddess. Like, that's her category. Right. Okay. So, so, um, then I would pick a context cue. So, context cues are things that you can see in conversation. And research shows that when you can both see the same thing or smell the same thing or taste the same thing, it creates a shared reality and it actually lowers the psychological pressure. So, if I am not sure what to say, I don't want to like inauthentically compliment, I will create some kind of context cue. So, it's highly specific. So, I might say, oh my gosh, what's your favorite food here? Or how's the wine? Like a very, just like, we're in this together. It's literally saying like, we're in this. It's like a shared context. It takes on the pressure of like, Oprah, what's your greatest memory? Or the only, the mistake of like, what's your one piece of career advice for me? Oh gosh. So much pressure. So, like take on the pressure, pick a context cue. And then if you can share a story that's going to delight and entertain them. Right. Like, I think that like sharing something about you or about something you've seen or something you've learned or something you've heard. Everyone likes a good story. So, do it. Let's do it over. If I was, if I.
Speaker 1I actually did it over last night. You did it. Yeah, because I saw her. I'm just going to show you the story. You were hanging out with Oprah last night? Yeah, just hanging casually. No, no, no. I just saw her. So, I knew. Again, casual conversations. No, what happened was I could see her in front of me. So, we're at the Lucas Museum opening and I could see her in front of me. So, I was like, think, think, think, think, think. And then she disappears. Okay, so you're thinking. Then she comes towards me. Light, the light. That's what I hear, literally. But it's like, I've got time, time, time. And again, you know, she's a hand holder. Wait, what are you thinking? I'm like, don't fuck it up again. And I'm like, thank God you don't have sunglasses on. That's what I was thinking. Okay, but were you preparing a conversation starter in your head? Of course, absolutely. And I said, what a joy to be here. Can you believe what we're seeing? Because we're in this museum space, you know. And I said, there is nowhere like this in LA. This, what a gift to the city. And she said, what a gift. Have you seen da, da, da, da? And I said, no, but did you see the Frida Kahlo da, da, da, da? And she said, I can't wait to see you in November. And I said, oh my God, bye, high five. And I walked off and I was like, yeah.
Speaker 2That was it. You did it. You did a context cue. So natural, that's why I know you're a natural conversationalist. That was a natural cue.
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Speaker 1What do you do? I mean, because I feel like so many people, they're good, they get into the meeting, and they've done the small talk thing, that kind of works out for them. So how do you redirect a meeting that's going nowhere without embarrassing the person that's actually leading?
Speaker 2Okay, so I think it's really good to have phrases in your back pocket, like planning phrases. So first of all, there's a couple of things that can come up. One, you don't have time for small talk. So this is the first transition. Like people who are in small talk, if you want to skip small talk, you can actually say, I trust all is well with you, trust all is good with you. So you can actually skip small talk with a positive statement. If you're in the meeting and you need a transition, what you want to do here is address the emotion and then give the next step. You have full permission to acknowledge the emotion, move it on. In fact, we see that as high competence. So remember how we talked at the very beginning about charisma is warmth and competence. This is where that comes in. Okay, you're in a meeting. You need to transition off something bad, off something good. You need to transition into metrics and productivity, warmth and competence, warmth, gratitude. Thank you. That was great. That was productive. That was relieving or whatever. And now competence. We have a plan. Let's go to this on the agenda. Let's go next. You want to pair that formula all the time, all the time in conversation. Also, even in your slides, right? So I'm doing a lot of presenting. I'm doing a lot of pitching. That's most of my work. I will even have a warm slide and a competent slide. Warm transition. Thank you for that. And then competent. Always be pairing warmth and competence together.
Speaker 1So let's make this a little bit about work, because if you walk into a meeting where nobody knows you, what are people deciding about you before you're like, before you've even made a point before you've opened your mouth?
Speaker 2Yes. So they're deciding first warmth. Warmth actually comes first. Warmth signals are important in the first few seconds. So when we talk about impressions, really, we only have the first few seconds. Some people even say it's less than a second, meaning you have to very quickly signal openness. So there's a couple of nonverbal ways that we do this. So I like to be hands first. So on every Zoom call, on every meeting, even when we just met, I was like, oh my gosh, so good to see you. And then we went in for, I think we hugged, right? So hands first. So the moment you walk into a room, the moment you hop on video, signal your palm. I love an open palm. It's kind of like the window to the soul. Second is you want to make eye contact, especially those first few seconds. It produces oxytocin. So oxytocin is the chemical of connection. There's a lot of things in our body, but for our social purposes. And then if you can do some kind of physical greeting, that's always good. A handshake, kiss, high five, fist bump, hug, all good. Then your opening line, specifically your first five words. I want us to be purposeful with our first five words. So often we throw these away or we ask them, we throw them away. So happy to be here. Do I look happy to be here? So we either start on autopilot, which is off. So we'll say, hey everyone, so happy to be here, but we don't look happy to be here. That immediately signals inauthenticity. So if you're not actually happy to be there, don't say it. I'm like, I would rather you be radically honest than pretend that you're happy to be there. So if you're actually happy to be there, make it sound like you're happy to be there. Second, your first five words should be purposeful. It should not be apologizing. It should not be hedging. It should not be qualifying. And you have to state them, not ask them. We briefly talked about earlier asking, especially your name. If someone, you walk into a meeting, you say, hi, my name is Vanessa. In our brain, when we hear an accidental question inflection used on a statement, it reminds us of liars. So liars accidentally use the question inflection because they're asking, do you believe me? So this is why we get that spidey sense around people who are like, what? It's because our brain hears the question inflection. So liars will often go, no, because they're actually asking, do you believe me? Like if I ask my daughter, did you take that cookie? And she goes, no. Yeah, she did. Right? So we know this instinctively. So if you're asking your own name, you're asking the point of the meeting, you're asking your greeting. You've lost your authority. You've lost your competence, right? You're actually putting their brain into more of a suspicious place rather than an open place. So first signaling warmth, then signaling competence and making those first few words purposeful. I also think this cuts down awkwardness. Like if I'm about to walk into a meeting, usually I used to be thinking about like my inbox, my tasks, the pitch. No, no. Just think about your first five words. I like gratitude. Oh, thanks so much for making this work. Thanks so much for having me. I'm always grateful, right? I don't, I don't walk into rooms I'm not grateful for. So you're grateful to be there, right? So like that's a, that's a bar for me is like, if I cannot be grateful for this meeting or meeting this person, I shouldn't be doing it. So I always know that gratitude is authentic. That doesn't always work for folks. So if you're grateful, right? If you want to be productive, that's also good. Excited for this productive meeting. Excited to get this done. Excited to know you, right? So I think you can pick the words that you want to showcase. I love that.
Speaker 1First five words is really strong. First five words and first question. All right. First five words, first, first question. Yeah. What happens? Because it does happen when you just lose the room. Like you, and you're looking around and people are on their phone and like, they're not, you know, feeling the presentation. How do you bring everybody back in?
Speaker 2So, so is this during a chit chat session or during your presentation? Like during a presentation. Oh, well, you got to prepare for those. So, you know, you know, you've lost people. You usually see it non-versus. First, right? So non-verbal disengagement looks a certain way. You know, this looks like it's glassy eyes. It's peeking over at your computer. It's that lean back, sit back block. So lean back, sit back block is someone leaning back in their chair. They're usually blocking their body. They often have a blocking behavior on their face. They're covering their mouth or their eyes. But by the way, watch out for when someone's covering their mouth or their eyes, it's either a blocking gesture in discomfort. So that something you said they don't like, for example, we, we tend to eye block like rubber eyes. I'm not going to touch my eyes now because I'm too much cute makeup on. But if you, you rub your eyes, um, it's usually a sign that you don't want to see something like little kids. When you give them bad news, they cover their eyes. True. Right. So we have the same thing as, as humans. If you see someone suddenly block or cover their eyes, they're either embarrassed or uncomfortable. Same thing with the mouth as we will typically cover our mouth when we're trying to hold something back. So, um, watch out for those signals. And then you have a choice. I like to address it. So if that person is engaged with you, I will make them a little, I will give them a lot. More eye contact. So oxytocin is energizing, right? So if I'm suddenly making eye contact with you, you're like, Oh, hello. Someone's paying attention to me. I will often get physically closer to them. Like not in a weird way, but like if I'm presenting and I can sort of walk towards them towards the road in the boardroom, I will get physically closer to them because we know it's called proxemics. When someone closes the space, our brain's like, Oh, pay attention. They can reach out and touch me. They can reach out and high five me. So our brain like kind of leans into that. And then you probably need a vocal tone change. So vocal tone change right now. I'm in explanation tone, but what if, just what if I went into this tone now I have to share something. It's, it's really personal. I used to really struggle with over-talking. Now I'm in a storytelling tone change, right? So you need to practice the different ways you deliver. Watch Ted talks. For example, there's a Ted talk tone. You ever noticed this? Yeah. Here's what it sounds like. Ready? Today, we're going to talk about a big idea. I'm going to break it down into three different things. That are going to change your life, right? Like we know that tone is high competent, right? We're like, ah, we're in presentation mode. So what do you do? You suggest people practice at home. I suggest people break their presentations. This is really advanced. If you really want to be an excellent presenter, I suggest you break your presentation or your pitch into warmth and competence, and you should be bouncing between the two and the really good shark tank pitches. I love watching shark tank. Love the really good shark tank pitches. What they're doing is they're taking on an emotional journey. They usually start with something like this sharks today. I'm going to, and they have competence. They're in that competent shark tone. And then you'll notice about 30 seconds in a minute and they'll go into warmth. My journey started when I was a child and you're like, oh, warmth. And then the story gets a little bit boring and they go, but then I launched my first product and we had 600 sales competence. Then I brought my wife into the business warmth. Then we got our first customer warmth. Then we hit these sales numbers competence. That is what they're doing. Really good. Ted talks, really good shark tank pitches. We actually coded this. We analyzed 495 shark tank pitches. Jose Pena, my team member helped me analyze them. And we saw that they were actually dialing up and down emotion. They were doing it non-verbally and verbally. So this is nuanced, but can you bring in warmth? Warmth are stories, case studies, personal history, even success stories, warmth, gifts, funny gifts in your slides, a joke, uh, passing something out, touching something that the, the shark tank pitches that had interaction, any kind of interaction did better because they're immediately warm. Right. So like touching something or giving something and then competence data, research numbers, budgets, charts, glasses, glasses are actually seen as competent. You should have a balance wearing glasses, wearing glasses. Yeah. We actually see people who are glasses, hair incompetent, which is, which is so silly. So we can plan for this, right? Really good presenters are, and it's not by accident. I think that if we can plan out warmth and competence, you're actually just being easier to listen to. That's all this is, is you want to be, make it so that someone's cognitive load is low. They can only hold for so long. And that's just that.
Speaker 1Right. So say I'm sitting next to someone that can completely change the trajectory of my career. career, how can I have a conversation with that person without making it feel like overly transactional? So I
Speaker 2like radical honesty. So sometimes in those situations, I like to call it out, right? Like if you're with someone who contains a trajectory of your career, I think you can say something like, you know, I've been so looking forward to this conversation. Thank you so much for sitting down with me. This could kind of change the trajectory of my life. So no pressure. Like, I think you can be played. So that's option one is like, be very radically honest with it. Be very playful. That works for me. Have you ever done that? I mean, in your pivotal moments, are you usually that honest or are you going for banter? I'm that honest every day, pivotal moment or not. I just, that's just who I am. I think that that's the better way because usually someone knows it. Like if someone is sitting with you and they know they can change the trajectory of your career, let's just call it out. And the research backs us up to is radical transparency is also vulnerable. And we like vulnerability. It skips levels, right? If you go right into like, let's, let's do the bad. I like to do bad and then good. You sit down with, let's say an investor, right? Or who, who, who would you like to, who does your ideal person? Like what's a person who could change their trajectory? Is it an investor?
Speaker 1Let's say it's an investor or it's somebody very senior in a company, you know, a powerful person. Cause I think the power plays into so much of
Speaker 2these conversations. And powerful people know they're powerful. Yes, they do. Typically. And so how was your weekend? It, it's just, it's not very real. And also it kind of puts the pressure on them. I would rather be like, well, I've been looking forward to this my whole life. I'm, I'm, I'm grateful this opportunity. It could change the structure of my whole life. I really want to get to know you. My goal today is, and then skip to level two. Level two is goals. So if you skip to, you know, my goal today is to get to know you, or my goal today is to show you why this is the best investment you could possibly make. Or my goal today is to really, um, connect with you. It's just for us to get to know each other. And so if you skip to, you know, my goal is to get to know each other, share your goal right at the start, because then you skip the level. You don't have to go through those horrible level one niceties. And it's important to make yourself more memorable. I think so. I think so. And this is where emotion comes in, right? If you are asking socially autopilot questions, you are less memorable. If you are preparing stories, but also emotion frames, you become a memorable. And this is also level three. So level three is where real memorability happens. Level three is the last one. We haven't talked about it yet, but it's called self-narrative. This is the story you tell yourself about yourself. You know what really powerful people like? A story, because all people like a story. So I think we make the mistake sometimes of sticking to business. But as I say, there's really no just sticking to business. We like people where we are part of their story. So sharing what is your hero's journey, that is going to hook a powerful person in because it's real. Yeah. It's really your story, but also they want to be on the journey with you. They want to root for you. The mistake that I think really smart people make, and these are most of my students, is it's all numbers. And the worst shark tank pitches are these. It's all about the pitch, all about the numbers. There's no history. And usually the first question a shark asks is like, can you just tell me about you? Yeah. Or how did you get started? Right? Like that's why they're asking those questions because they're like, give me warmth. Get me your story. So this is the real challenge. With that powerful person or in any conversation, can you bring up your career self-narrative? What is the story you're telling yourself about? What is the story of your career? And how could this person play an essential role in it? Where are you in your journey? Are you in the climb? Are you at the top? Are you at the bottom? We understand psychologically as humans that everyone should be on a hero's journey. If you bring them into that story, they are much more likely to root for you.
Speaker 1I get that. But how do you, I mean, maybe again, I might just be too English and too polite, but how would you get someone to trust you without like oversharing? Because there is that line, right? You're still in a professional conversation. You're like, I'm not going to trust you. I'm not going to trust you.
Speaker 2Yes. Oh, so horrible. Okay. Here's the difference. Okay. I'm going to do the bad version. I'm going to do the good version. So, um, say, tell me about your business. Oh, I'm going to tell me about your business. Well, um, I, uh, you know, I'm so sorry. I'm so nervous. Um, you know, I, um, I just never thought I could do it. And, um, I really struggle with imposter syndrome. And so I started my business, um, really despite all my imposter syndrome, that's too much. Yeah. You've lost me. Way too much, right? That's like way too much. Yeah. That's, that's oversharing. However, let's try again. So ask me again. Okay. So Vanessa, tell me about your business. Okay. This is the business that I think is going to transform women's lives. So I teach people how to X and what got me started. I actually started this way back in college. I had this horrible problem and I couldn't believe it. And I was able to overcome it with this little, uh, product that I created. I had this little product I created and I pushed it. I pushed it. I sold it at farmer's markets and then it started to go viral. And then once it went viral, I had all these women reaching out. And that's why I'm here with you is I'm at this critical part of this journey with this product where I know all we need is a little bit of investment to take it off. But if we do not get this investment, I know that it will slow our growth. Right. So like you see the difference. So I'm talking about, there's a little bit of emotion there about how I started it with my personal, my pain point, but I'm also, you saw where I was in the journey and where your role is. Yes. So we're right before the pivot point. And we like that. We like to see right before a pivot point.
Speaker 1Because that is what happens so often. People give me a huge, long story and yet they haven't told me how I can be helpful. I'm like, what are you talking to me for? No, no, I get it. I've got your whole life story. You've done this thing.
Speaker 2Like, what do you need? Right. And so let's, let's break down the hero's journey, right? So here's the hero's journey. And I, I also hope that everyone's on a hero's journey, right? Like, I hope that this can be your story. Every hero's journey. If when you're telling someone your story, what's the challenge? What was the pain point? The struggle start with that. And no more than 15 seconds in the struggle. That's a mistake that he will make is they spend way too much time oversharing the struggle. So what was the challenge? What was the mistake? And the more relatable you can make that piece with universals. So like I was over, like for my story, I was overwhelmed. I was social overthinker when I shared that, um, I used to mistake neutral faces as negative. Hopefully he will watch some people watching and we're like, Oh, that's me. Yeah, totally. Okay. So then, then you skip to the hard work, the grit, the resilience, the discovery. What was the thing that made you overcome that in your business or yourself? 15 to 30 seconds. That's it, right? What unique grit, hard work, resilience. And then where the tipping point, or did you have your tipping point, right? There are some people who've had their success. What was the win? That's the hero's journey.
Speaker 1The thing about strength training is that effort alone is not always enough. You can show up, do the workout, check the box, and still not really know if you're getting stronger in a meaningful way. That is where having a real plan matters. The ladder app gives you structured strength training programming created by certified coaches with workouts that build week after week. So instead of starting over every time you train, each session connects to the one before it. You know what you're working on, what weight you used last time, how many reps you did and how to keep progressing. The in-ear coaching is also a big part of it. It talks you through the workout with form cues, reminders, and motivation. So it feels like having a coach with you while you train. Now, whether you're training at home or in the gym, Ladder has plans for different styles, Pilates, bodybuilding, and more. So if you're interested in learning more about Ladder, you can go to ladder.fit.com/aspire and take a quick quiz to find your perfect ladder plan. Use my link and get a free seven-day trial with no credit card and $10 off your first month if you join. One of the ways I think about parenting is that my job is to give my kids what I call nutritious fertilizer. Good food, real attention, a strong foundation, and the kind of love that lets them grow into themselves. And when it comes to the food part, I care, but I'm also practical. I have four kids, real mornings, real schedules, and real life happening around me. So I appreciate anything that makes the routine easier without making it feel like yet another project. That is one of the reasons I started giving my kids Ella, Ola. It's a tasteless, colorless, multivitamin powder for toddlers and kids ages 2 to 11. Now, what I like about it is that it fits into what they're already eating or drinking. It's one daily sachet that you can mix into milk or yogurt, juice, oatmeal, smoothies, even something like ketchup or syrup. And there's no taste and no trace. My kids genuinely do not notice it, which is the point. It's just part of their day. Each serving has 19 essential vitamins and minerals plus a few vitamins and minerals. So if you're a kid, you're going to want to make sure that you from 15 organic fruits and vegetables. It has zero sugar, no artificial dyes or sweeteners, and it's free of the top nine allergens. For me, it's a simple way to support my kids' daily nutrition. And I love that it was developed with pediatricians and pediatric dietitians. Ella, Ola is offering my listeners 20% off your first purchase. Just go to ellaola.com slash Emma, discount applied automatically, no code needed. Try it risk-free with Ella, Ola's 25-day money-back guarantee. Go to ellaola.com slash Emma for 20% off your first purchase. I'm interested what happens when people disagree with you, because it happens all the time and how you would handle that in like a conversation-y, like, you know, appropriate or positive way. And specifically before we move on from work, like, because again, that is something that
Speaker 2happens every day. Yeah. Welcome to Scream. Discretion is an opportunity. Bad conversations are even an opportunity. You know why? when you can get through a disagreement with someone, you feel even more understood. So do not feel that you can only have agreeing, productive conversations to be charismatic. No, you can actually disagree very charismatically. So the first thing is I think calling it out, right? Ooh, let's fight about this, right? Let's get into it.
Speaker 1It's back to that just being really truthful and authentic thing, right?
Speaker 2Over and over and over again. You're like, just say what's happening. Okay. So the tendency in disagreement is to go one of two ways to be a defensive. It's not my fault. I didn't do it. Or to be offensive. It's your fault. I don't want you to do either. I want you to be very rigid with yourself. I'm not going to get defensive here. I'm not going to go attack them. I'm going to call this out. Ooh, we have a disagreement. Here we go. Okay. First and get logical. What you're trying to do when you disagree with someone is you want to keep them in logic. Don't let them go to the amygdala, right? You don't want to go to lizard brain because once someone is emotional, it's very hard to get through it. So you're going to go right back to logic. Right. We're right back into solution mode. Okay. Let's figure this out. So let me make sure I get this right. You stand here. Your position is a, a, a, a. Does that sound right? Okay. So my position is here. B, B, B, B, B, B, B. That's right. Right. Okay. We got to figure out a way to meet in the middle. Here's our shared goal. Here's where we got to go. Notice how I'm using like a very, very logical tone, right? I'm like, this is where you are. It's clipped because I want us to stay very logical. This is not about emotions. We've got to figure out a solution. So it's your position. Do I have that right? My position. Do you understand that? Does that make sense? And then what are our shared goals? We have a client. We have a due date. We have a project. We have a budget. We have to get through it. Half of my work training companies is getting through those difficult conversations. And I will say, you know, it helps the disagreement, rapport, rapport. Yeah. So all that, you know, me, I know you like, let's right. Like we like each other. We're good. So that rapport, that small talk is going to also make that disagreement when it comes so much better. So that's why it's also so worth it. It's so worth it, especially at work.
Speaker 1It's lubricant, but it's, it's so nice actually, even as we have this conversation, because so much of this goes full circle. It's like, if you're telling the truth, if you're being authentic, if you're saying what's actually happening, as opposed to this fantasy that's going on in your head, like you will be a better, let's not pretend we're not disagreeing. Like we can just, I like
Speaker 2you, you like me, or even like, you know, my, the old subtitle of my book was how to be instantly likable. And I changed it because I was like, actually, there's some conversations where you don't like the person and they can still be productive. Yeah. Right. So like, maybe it's them. Maybe it's like you have a shared goal. You got to get done. That's also okay. That's also fine.
Speaker 1That's also fine. Totally fine. Um, you write about delivering hard feedback, which is, I think one of the places that people struggle with so much, it doesn't matter how much practice you get. It's never easy to give hard feedback, but tell me about a time that you had to do it and give me, give me the versions. When have you done it? Well, when have you done it badly? How should we be delivering?
Speaker 2Okay. So let's go to the bad first. I love doing the bad first. Bad is bounce, beating around the bush and sugarcoating. I think that when we're trying, we have bad deliver type feedback.
Speaker 1First of all, Vanessa, it's so amazing that like, I just want people that are listening to this to go, that is bad because I just think that what happens, people go beating around the bush. I'm just going to save you from hearing this for a second longer and then sugarcoating, I'm going to soften it. Nobody means for that to be bad, right? They think that that's delivering hard feedback in probably the best way to preserve the other person's feelings. But you go like, that's bad.
Speaker 2That's bad. That's bad. If someone's receiving bad news, it's very hard. It's very cognitive load. The quicker you can get to it, the better. So no small talk? No. Okay. That's when we cut the small talk. And this is, I think, when you do permission feedback, this is how I do it. So when I've done it well, you know, I've done it badly when I get nervous and I beat around the bush. When I do it well, I say, I have some tough feedback. Do you want me to just give it to you? Or do you want me to do it slowly and softly? And you will tell you. Does anyone ever go slow and softly? I get both. I get both. I do get both. So I get folks who are like slow and soft. And then I'm like, great, let's do it. So let's back up. Last week, we had a little issue. Remember? Remember what happened? And I'll do it slow and soft. And there are people who are like, just give it to me. I'm like, yeah, you messed up last week. That was like a real problem. And here's how we have to fix it. Right? So I think like radical transparency. Don't worry about the small talk in that sense. Your small talk that you invested in, all that small talk are investments. Every time that you ask better questions, you share good stories, you have that all with someone that is an investment so that when you do have a disagreement, when you do have to deliver tough news, they remember. They remember this person's on my side. And that investment really pays off in those moments.
Speaker 1Yeah, I can see that. And I just think, again, people really struggle with giving hard feedback because they just imagine that people don't want it. And I think that as somebody who has to give feedback all the time, nine times out of 10, kind of, you know, they might not find it in the moment, but they come back to you a week later and they're like, that was really helpful. I'm really glad you actually told me that. So I wish we were able to get over it and find the way to just do it more frequently. Because I also think it doesn't help to like wait for an assessment moment. Like, you know, it's like, give the feedback, like,
Speaker 2let's go. And people I think are most grateful. Me too. I've gotten bad feedback too. The worst thing you can do for someone when they have bad feedback is be confusing. Yes. Right. So sugar coating is only going to confuse them.
Speaker 1So it's an interesting one though, to think about when the shoe's on the other foot, right? Because it's fine if you're giving feedback to somebody that, you know, wherever they are in the organization, you're their superior. How do people do it the other way around? When you're talking to your boss, when you're talking to a leader, somebody that's got significantly more power than you, how do you talk to somebody without that imbalance kind of diluting what it is that you want to say to them?
Speaker 2I think it's the exact same. Is it really? Look, imagine that someone bad feedback and they said, listen, happens all the time. And they're like, Hey, last week, uh, there was a problem. First of all, you don't want them to sugarcoat, right? You're like, just get to it. Busy people are busy, right? It's like, so get to it. And wouldn't you like it if someone was like, listen, something bad happened last week. I'm going to give you the nice version or maybe the hard version. It's the same. I think we should think it's exactly the same.
Speaker 1I think we should treat powerful people are people. But how do you stop a power imbalance from controlling the conversation? Because even if that's fine for me, I think for the person having that, the conversation with me, it's tough for them. They're like, you know, I need to beat around the bush a bit.
Speaker 2But I think beating around the bush is only going to just, it's only going to be a disservice to you. You're like, we should never beat around the bush. I don't think we should ever beat around the bush because it's going to cause confusion. And also for a busy person, they're like, just tell me what it is. Just tell me. Especially a highly smart person. They want efficiency in communication, right? So the faster you get it out and you do it, they're like, all right, let's go. Let's fix it. And I will say the one hierarchy difference would be, don't drop a monkey on their desk. Have you ever heard that metaphor is like, sometimes I think if you're the boss, you get people bringing in their monkeys, leaving them on your desk, like they just bring their problems to you and dump them on their desk. And then you have an office full of monkeys. No. Yeah. So the best, don't drop the monkey on their desk, which is come with the solution. So state the problem the same way. Do you want it soft? Do you want it hard? And then like, what is the next step? Don't expect them in the moment to troubleshoot. You had time. So think about what are the potential options for this? And that is a respectful thing to do for someone who is in a high position of power because they don't have a lot of time.
Speaker 1Yeah. I think that, that is really, really sad.
Speaker 2Also moves you both to resolution.
Speaker 1I was going to say, it gets you, it gets you closer to the point where you're like, okay, how are we on the other side of this already? And then you can brainstorm. You're discussing, you're not in this problem. Like you're discussing the way forward. The worst thing is like you drop a problem and then you're like silent. There was something that you said in the book. You said you believe the way that someone talks about their past can tell us something about what they'll do next. That's it. So what should we listen for?
Speaker 2So I believe in frames, not facts, meaning someone could frame the facts of their life any way they want. And I've heard people do this. I do in this research for this book, I was harvesting narrative. So I was asking people, what's the story of your life? What's the story of how you got to where you are today? What forces shaped who you are that made you who you are today? And the answers were, there were patterns in their answers. And what I noticed is there are two different kinds of frames people have, a contamination frame or a redemption frame. A contamination frame. So let's take the same facts, right? I was born to a single mom and my dad left us and I never finished school and I had a really hard time. And I was a mechanic because I had no other choices. And last year I had to buy the shop because I was going to be fired and I just struggle every day. That is a certain way of telling those facts versus, you know, I was born to a single mom. She's incredible. My dad left us, thank goodness, because I was better off with my mom. You know, I didn't end up finishing school. I actually got a really amazing. job under a mechanic who taught me everything I know. Last year I had the opportunity to buy the shop and it's a lot of pressure. It's a lot of work, but I have my own boss now. Same facts, totally different frames. And so you hear this as people talk. So my goal for this is you'll have a big cornerstone conversation with someone in your life that is asking the really important question. I have nine power questions in the book to ask these nine questions. I love the nine power questions. So if you ask these nine questions, you're going to level up very quickly. Some of those questions are narrative at the end. Listen for their frames. Are they using superlatives? Oh, I always have the best luck. I never get what I want, right? So always, nevers, black, white. Are they telling a redemption narrative? A redemption narrative, everything in their life was hard, but then it got better. Through their own grit and resilience and hard work, they got through it. Everything in their life will be redemptive. My team members, my friends who have redemption narratives, they're always telling redemption narratives. It doesn't matter what they're doing. It doesn't matter what the task is. That is their frame for life. I don't have any teammates who have a contamination narrative because it's really hard to work with. Yeah, right. But my friends and people who are in my family. who have a contamination narrative. Everything is a contamination. It doesn't matter. They have a feeling that life is happening to them. They don't have a lot of agency. They often have the feeling that their bad luck is stopping them, that no matter how hard they work, no matter how smart they are, they will never be able to overcome. And that repeats in their personal relationships, in their work relationships with their money. You know, people have money narratives, specific narratives around money. We have to listen for those because people are telling us their stories. All the time.
Speaker 1Do you think if you. Because I get it, right? I'm a redemption person. It's like everybody who works around me is that type of person. But if you're sitting there listening now and you know that you have the contamination narrative, how do you even begin to change that? Because you just told us the same story in two different ways. So if you know that that is your way of describing things, that that is your narrative, then the chances are some pretty shitty things have happened to you because that's the story and then you just don't know any other way to tell it. So what do you do? How do you begin to get to that point where you can start to shift and turn it into a redemption narrative?
Speaker 2This is the whole reason I wrote the book. The way we change our narrative is through conversation. The way that we change our story is through sharing our story and then having people we love and we care about say, hey, there's actually a different way to look at it. Or hey, let's rewrite your story. And this is the beautiful thing about narrative. Narrative are actually, it's not like any, any grammar personality types. Narratives are changeable, meaning you can decide to change your narrative. They are not coded within you. And Vanessa, can you do it for yourself? You can do it for yourself. You can do it through self-authorship. So the last chapter of the book is about self-authorship, meaning you have to believe you are the author of your own life. You have to believe that life doesn't just happen to you, that you are writing your narrative. Now there's things, of course, you can't control. All of us have things we can't control, but you have to believe that the pen is in your hands. So my question for you is, what can you do in your life? And again, this is going back full circle to living a more interesting life. That was the very first like little nudge. How can you write your own story from now on, right? How can you decide to do things that are going to change the story you tell yourself about yourself? The question, the fundamental question that I ask in self-narrative research is this, are you lucky? Do you think you're lucky? Oh, I think I'm so lucky.
Speaker 1Me too. I think I'm so lucky.
Speaker 2Ask this question of the people in your life. Are you lucky is a hint at what someone's self-narrative is. If you answer, no, I don't think I'm lucky. It's likely you're struggling with a contamination narrative. What do you have to do in your life to feel luckier? I believe that the more chances you take, the more chances you have to get lucky. In this way, even trying out some of these socially courageous conversations, you're going to feel lucky. What if you meet your person? What if you have a great conversation? I think it's lucky you found this podcast, right? It is so lucky. You happen to be listening to this right now on your drive, on your workout. You, this is lucky. And you're hearing this right now. This is the moment you get to be the author of your own life. It was lucky that you clicked on this today. You just happened to click on it. You happen to be listening to it. You get to start writing right now.
Speaker 1Yeah, and I think for anybody, we all know people that have the contamination narrative. You should send this to your friend. Because if I heard this, I would immediately recognize those traits in myself. I could name, like literally, as you're speaking, I'm like, this has to go to her and to her and to him and to her and to her. But it's like, you know that. You've just done it for so long that it's become a pattern. It's a story that you tell yourself and you've just got to find a new narrative. And even as you speak it, it's like, yes, actually, everybody will be able to find and identify a little nugget of luck somewhere. And that can be the beginning of your reframing. Someone sent this to you. Finding that. Just listening to the podcast.
Speaker 2How lucky. I clicked on this today. Oh my gosh. So two things. One, send this to them. And say, I want to listen to this with you. Right? Like, I want to listen to this with you. Oh, let's do it together. That's nice. Right? Let's do it together. On a walk, on a drive. It's cute. A little date, a little podcast. I lift and listen to podcasts with my husband. We lift and listen to podcasts. That's so romantic. It's so good. It's so good. So lift and listen, right? Or like, listen with your person. But second, be like, hey, can we do the nine power questions together? The act of going through the questions is going to help them rewrite. Because even just voicing fears. Like one of the questions, I believe this is question, um, number, number eight is, how do you feel most misunderstood? Just the act of asking and answering that question, which is with someone you trust. And it can be someone who you're even level two person. You're going to begin to think about how do I wish I was seen? That is self-authorship, right? Talking about how you wish to be understood. That's writing your own story. That is writing your own story.
Speaker 1So something I love to talk about on this show all the time is money. Yeah, I love it. Everybody knows. Money conversations are really just about money, right? And people get really mixed up. They don't know how to speak about money. What can the way people speak about money actually reveal about them? Okay. So everyone
Speaker 2has a money narrative. Yes, they do. Right? This is the story you tell yourself about your worth, about the money you make and success, right? I also believe people have career narratives are a little bit different. They can be tied, but they're a little different. This is a very personal story to me. So a couple that I knew, they were in like a little icebreaker dinner situation. And the icebreaker was very casual. Sounded very casual was if you won the lottery, what amount of money would you need to never have to work again? Kind of like a silly little conversation. This is a money narrative question. That is my narrative question. And someone in the couple said 500,000. And someone in the couple said 30 million. And they got divorced. And that couple told me it was that conversation that was the beginning of the conversation. Of the unravel. Wow. Because they had very different beliefs about money and what it could do for you. Neither of them were right or wrong, but they were totally incompatible. Yeah, that's a fundamental disconnect. So first, just bringing into your conversations those kinds of questions. What was your first money memory? Does money make you feel powerful, attractive, scared, free, right? Like even just asking those kinds of questions, you start to uncover things. For example, my origin story, as an entrepreneur, actually starts with money. And I was like, I knew I wanted to be a mom. And so I knew that I didn't want to have a job that was tied to my hours. I knew that I did not want to do. I still to this day don't do coaching or consulting. So I started the business because I knew that I wanted to create books. And so I think that like even asking someone, what was the first time you made money? How did it feel? How do you think about money? How does money drive you? If we talk about that, you're going to discover things about yourself even as you're talking.
Speaker 1Yeah, and it's so important. No one can get away from the conversations around money. And it really. Money actually is one of those things, just as you described with, you know, the couple that got divorced. You really need to know that about the people that are closest to you. Yes. It's not a conversation you want to be necessarily having in the workplace, though I wish more women did. Yeah. But those that are closest to you, you really need to understand and they need to understand you better through the lens of money. Yeah. It's helpful.
Speaker 2It's helpful. It's also predictive. Entirely. Right? Entirely. If you hear what someone's money narrative was about their first job, it's going to tell you about a lot about, this current job. Yes. And how they save and how they don't save and how they spend. Yeah. All right.
Speaker 1So as we draw to a close, I really want to ask you this question because I think for so many of us, we have somebody that we've known for the longest time, for years and years and years, but we don't actually know them. So if this is somebody that you've invested a lot of time in and somebody that you love, like where do you even start to get deeper with people? Like you talk about the levels, level one to level two to level three. Yeah. But this is not somebody like you're meeting for the first time. It's like, you know, this person, you just don't know them. No. Okay. So I would start with goals.
Speaker 2So. Oh, I love that. I love to do goals. I love a goal girl. I mean, I'm a goal girl, right? Like I host gold digger dinners. Like I love gold. And here's why is it's a good reset conversation. If you've known someone for a long time, you can't be like, what's your personal passion project? You're like, you know what I mean? Facts. Right. You can't do that. So I have this concept in the book of like being a dream builder. Being a dream builder is like you're additive. You're, you're always kind of harvesting, right? So I would start here, which is I was listening to this podcast, right? You can use a context clue. I was, I was listening to this podcast or like anytime around New Year's, I reinvigorate some of my old friendships. I'm like, hey, what's your big goal for 2027? You know, like I, so birthdays, New Year's. Yeah. Start of the month, start of the week, start of the quarter. Excuse. Basically anytime. Right. Basically anytime. So if it's the start of a month, just be like, hey, you want to do an October goal? Want to do a number goal? I'm thinking about doing this goal set. You want to do goals with me? So I would actually start, I would start with goals because it's a way of, you're just like, it's a little sneaky way to flip on their growth mindset. So growth mindset is important for long-term relationships because I think we can get out of the habit of growing with our partners or growing with our friends. Yeah. And it's death to a relationship. It's death to a relationship because we're not learning if we're not growing. So if you're asking, hey, I want to do a goal reset with you. Do you want to do some goals with me? I was listening to Emma and Vanessa talk. You're saying, will you learn and grow with me? So then you start with goals. Yeah. And I'm taking an interest in the things that are important. What is your goal for the month? What is your goal for growth? What is your personal goal? What is your work goal? What is your health goal? What is your social goal? Right? So you're talking about goals. Then what do we need to learn? We're sneaking getting into the questions because question number five is about goals. Question number six is about learning. So what do we need to learn to get that goal? Now we're really talking about growth mindset. If you've been with someone for a long time, like what's the new thing we want to learn, read, watch, do? Is it a class? Are we trying something together? Then you're getting into a little bit of accountability and then maybe you can learn something together. So goals and learning, It's a great way to reinvigorate.
Speaker 1think it's a brilliant way to reinvigorate because especially if you think about, you know, let's say you have a relationship, you're in a couple, you've had your kids, like you're not doing that thing together. You're living in the same house. Like I remember my husband's father, he always used to say like relationships have to give birth to something, meaning that you need to create together. And actually if you're aligning on your goals and you're like, we're going to learn this new thing together, it's like you're creating something together. And actually the research
Speaker 2is really amazing. Shared future comes from goals. So saying like, even if it's like, we're going to learn Italian, right? Creating a shared future where you're both speaking Italian is actually very, very bonding. So it also speaks to the science.
Speaker 1That was very wise. He was a very wise man. So if someone listening changes one thing after listening to this episode, what should
Speaker 2it be? No small talk, small talk diet, small talk diet, meaning for the next 30 days, know what do you do? Know how are you or any version of it? Know where are you from? Small talk diet for 30 days. I want you to go on a small talk cleanse. Just see what happens. If you stop defaulting to those questions, you're going to feel a little bit nervous. It's going to be a little bit hard. Remember that's reps, right? The first time you do pushups, it's really hard, but just that 30 days, you're going to break the conversational bad habits. You're going to get conversationally strong. Do you think there's anything that can't be taught? I'm a pretty growth mindset person. Anything that can't be taught? I don't think you can fake authenticity. You know, occasionally you'll get someone who's like, I don't like them. I don't think you can fake liking. I just don't think you can learn that. I don't think you can learn how to be an authentically likable.
Speaker 1You spent so many years doing this and learning it and getting so good at it. And I think that what you've spoken about so much today is like figuring out the questions that make people feel known. And I wonder if there's one question that you have. That you wish people would ask more often.
Speaker 2It's a really hard one, but it is my true wish, which is what would you do if you weren't afraid? I think most of us are afraid a lot. Like we're afraid of failure. We're afraid of rejection. We're afraid of not being liked. We're afraid in conversation. We're afraid in business. And if we could just peel back that layer, you know, what would you do if you weren't afraid right now? What would you be afraid if you weren't afraid in your business? What would you do if you weren't afraid socially? I think that we would. really get to some major truths.
Speaker 1So tell me, what do you still
Speaker 2aspire to do or to be? I aspire to make a global movement of conversationalists. And this is tricky, right? Like I don't say that lightly. I think we're opting out of conversation every day. Okay. We're moving to rapid fire, which I'm terrible at, but I feel like you're bad at it too.
Speaker 1Yeah. I can't answer things quickly as we know, like minute 30. What is she going to ask me? I'm going to try. All right. A famous conversation that you think everyone
Speaker 2needs to listen to. Yes. There's a forgotten conversation history. It is the first conversation between Martin Luther King and Lyndon B. Johnson. When President Lyndon B. Johnson took office, he had to take over the civil rights agenda from Kennedy very quickly. And Martin Luther King had built up all this camaraderie with Kennedy. He had to restart it. And it's documented. They have the transcripts of this conversation, the very first phone call between the two of them. It is mastery. It is master level. I have it printed word for word in my book. Very basic. If you don't want to read it, it's, they skipped the small talk and they started immediately with gratitude. So both Lyndon B. Johnson and Martin Luther King, they both had very serious agendas they were working on and they had to find camaraderie. So they started with camaraderie and gratitude. They also talked about legacy. They were literally in the very first two minutes. Level two. Level three. They were like a legacy. Yeah. Kennedy's legacy. And then incredibly, this is a president, right? Lyndon B. Johnson's president, he actually said all of his worries in the first minute of the conversation. He lists to Martin Luther King, his worries about these bills. And immediately that's a hero's journey, right? Lyndon B. Johnson said, I need help with this. I am worried about getting this done. And Martin Luther King is like, let's go. Not in those words, but he's like, I'm your ally. Let's do it. That conversation is short, but high stakes. I think like we tend to think of conversation as casual and social and they're wonderful, but there are some very high stakes conversations and they don't have to be long. Like if you know what to hit, you can do them right. So if I could just replay, if I could just replay that, broadcast it out, I would. Another reason to buy the book. Oh, thank you.
Speaker 1Okay. Text, voice note, or phone call? Tell the truth, Vanessa. Video call. Video call? Video call. Okay.
Speaker 2I'm a video caller. I'm a spontaneous video caller. Really? Oh, I'm not picking up to you.
Speaker 1You know? No, no, no, no. What? I feel like you need to text ahead to FaceTime me. I'm like so 44 years old.
Speaker 2What? No, it has to be a family member for me to pick this up. I FaceTime my friends and I want to see them at their ugliest. I love it. I call people when I'm like sweaty in the sauna. I'm like, hello, in my sauna hat. You know, you're my good friend if I randomly video call you.
Speaker 1Wow. Deep. That's very deep. A communication habit that you want people to stop doing right away.
Speaker 2Stop asking. Been busy? Stop asking that question. And stop talking about how busy you are. There's no, both of those. There's no good way. Yeah. That's it.
Speaker 1I've really enjoyed that, by the way. That was really good. Well done. Is there a book that's changed your life?
Speaker 2So many books have changed my life. I'm going to go back to the original, the first self-help book I ever read. So it was on my mom's dresser. And she was like, I was like, why is my mom reading a book? It was an old school book called Why Men Don't Listen and Why Women Can't Read Maps. It was by Barbara and Alan Pease. And it was, I didn't know self-help existed. Back then, you know, I was like, I was like in elementary school or something like early high school. I thought it was only fiction books. I read this book and I understood my dad. Like I read this book and it explained how men think versus how women think. I don't even know if it holds up. I haven't read it, but I was like, oh, I understand my dad. I understand my brother. Like it actually was the first time where I understood the people in my life. And I was like, I want to write books like this. That was the first time where I was like, this is what I want to write.
Speaker 1That's amazing. I was like 12. Well, let me tell you, anyone who goes out and gets a copy of your book, will understand something in a whole new way. It's as enlightening. Like honestly, congratulations to you because it's a really amazing book and there's so much to learn in there. You should be really proud of yourself. Thanks for having this conversation with me. I'm so happy to have done it. Thank you, my love. So good. If you're loving this podcast, be sure to click follow on your favorite listening platform. While you're there, give us a review and a five-star rating and share an episode you love to a friend who'd be so grateful. Aspire with Emma Greed is presented by Odyssey. I'm your host, Emma Greed. Our executive producers are Ashley McShan, Derek Brown, and me. Executive producers from Odyssey are Asha Saluja and Leah Reese-Dennis. Producer, KK Sublime. Stephen Key is our senior producer. Sound design and engineering by Bill Shorts. Angela Peluso is our booker. Original music by Charles Black. Video production by Phil Swetek and Carlos Delgado. Social media by Olivia Homan, Catherine Bale. Special thanks to Brittany Smith, Sydney Ford, my teams at The Lead Company and WME, Josephina Francis, Hilary Schuff, Eric Donnelly, Kate Hutchinson-Rose, Tim Meikle, Evan Cox, Kurt Courtney, Andrew Steele, Sean Cherry, and Lauren Vieira. If you have questions for me, you can DM me at Aspire with Emma Greed. Greed is spelled G-R-E-D-E. That's Aspire, A-S-P-I-E. Or you can submit a question to me on my website, emmagreed.me. RingCentral's AI Receptionist uses voice AI
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