The Color of Money with Chris Ryan

♪ Blank Check with Griffin and David. Blank Check with Griffin and David. Don't know what to say or to expect. All you need to know is that the name of the show is Blank Check. ♪ It's a very distinct voice. Yeah, good. Yeah, he's got that, you know, how do you do that? Come on. Because it does feel like the second he, he obviously was a man who went gray early. But there was the moment where the switch flipped and he was like, I'm elder statesman now. And he added some sort of patrician kind of effect to his voice. But when does old Newman begin? Is it Butch Cassidy? Is it The Sting? No, I'm saying later. Verdict? The Sting? He's playing. He's like a mentor. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like, that's when it begins. But then he's still kind of badass. I'm like, is it Verdict? Is it Verdict? Verdict, he's old. Yes, that's for sure. No, but like Absence of Malice, he's the same vibe, right? Maybe it's that. But you know what I'm saying? The voice changes. He becomes Doc Hudson. It gets a little gravelly. It gets a little, there's a little cigar. Yeah, what about like Slapshot? It's like, I guess, you know what? He's a man who aged perfectly. He did. Like every single decade. He wasn't the Tom Cruise thing of like, I'm fucking clinging on, clinging on. And then by collateral, he's like, what if I show you a glimpse? And then I'll pull it back. Oh, okay. Here's a question that I'm certain our guest can answer. And I think you can answer as well, David. I have never seen Ford Apache, Apache the Bronx. Absence of Malice feels to me like the earliest I can identify he is playing old man. What is the voice like in Ford Apache? I don't remember the voice, but he's definitely like a veteran in that. Like he's like the old fucking drunk at the office. Right. I mean, the precinct. And then they're going to have to shoot a bunch of. I think that there's also like a relationship to how much a character drinks in the movie that dictates the voice. Right. Like how gravelly does he want to go? Because he, well, like Quintet. What's he like in that? I just remember him being cold. Yeah, that's a cold ass movie. I think it's an 80s thing. I think it's the second he enters the 80s. And as you said, he aged perfectly. And I think one of the things that people. People study about Paul Newman is how distinct his eras were without bumps, where he kept adjusting to the time and identifying correctly. What is the best movie star I could be right now? How do I fit the culture? I think this is only our second Paul Newman film. After the Hudsucker. Which Hudsucker, he's obviously doing full on old man, but also full on evil. He's playing sort of the comedic. The comedically heightened version of this guy. What's your favorite Newman? This persona. Is it this? Well, I would probably say it's this or Slapshot. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like, that's a really hard question, because the second you ask that, five movies jump into the front of my mind. It's not ten, yeah. But it's this Slapshot verdict. Verdict. Verdict, I think, is his best performance. I agree. It's the one he should have won the Oscar for, right? Not to be rude to today's film, but that's, that's, who beats him that year? Ben Kingsley. Yeah. He can't beat him. We always come up against this. Yep. It's like, it's just a lot of those Newman losses. Yeah. You're like, well, how did he lose? And then you're like, oh, I guess that was a big one. We've covered a couple of these films where you go, I don't understand how it's possible Nick Nolte didn't win Best Actor for Prince of Tides. Oh, it was The Silence of the Lambs here. Because you're like, the most historic buzzsaw is the only thing that could have beaten this performance. How did he lose for Hud? He lost to Sidney Poitier. Historic. How did he lose for Cool Hand Luke? Which he maybe like, you know, maybe that's it. He loses to Rod Steiger for In the Heat of the Night. Steiger's a legend. That movie wins Best Picture. That was a major, major film. Yeah. It's a major film. Yeah. But it's also like, he's also up against Warren Beatty for Bonnie and Clyde and Dustin Hoffman for The Graduate. So it's like, there's three young stars all in kind of their most iconic role. Right. But then it's interesting because he's. And so the Oscars are just like, Steiger. He's the older guy. You say young star, but there's like a big difference. He's young. I mean, Beatty and Hoffman are breaking through at a whole new level. That's Newman identifying his second phase, arguably. That's the whole thing. It's like, he was the one guy who really successfully, without a hitch, made the transition from being a studio system star to a new Hollywood star by seeming like the cool, slightly older guy who gets it. The way that he kind of treats age is. I think that's what's interesting about him. I don't know. what's the driver really doing here? Well, more just like you have to be a study of human moves, you know? That is what the movie's about. You know, I've only seen F1 once, and I didn't realize, I wasn't picking up what you were putting down. I'll say it's even more, it's about the driver. It's about the heart of the driver. It's about the character of the driver. This movie has good dialogue. Yeah. This movie? Yeah. Yes. And I would say the lesson of Cars and the lesson of The Color of Money is, it's in the way that you use it. Which, to be clear, is not actually a line of dialogue in the script. No, but. Although it would be cool. It would be funny if Cruise is like, I got any advice? And Numa went, it's in the way that. One day if I curate, you know, rep screenings or whatever at my local theater that I own in this paradise world, I imagine, right? Where I'm like, ah, David's here. This would be part of a series that I would like to think about of like movies where you want to live the objectively like stressful low life of the people involved. Like you watch it and you're like, what's cooler than being a pool hustler who lives at bars? And it's like, excuse me, that's not a good life. You don't want. And I'm like, no, I think I want it. I think I want to hang out with these guys all the time. I was rewatching The Hustler the other night and texting you guys about it. And I said, this is just the best life possible, right? You got a perfect face and you're a piece of shit. Your life sucks. I think that the festival could be like, I want to live inside of this. Yes. And a lot of it is, that's the key. It's like you're watching movie stars play this. You're watching people with supernatural charisma and incredible good looks live through objectively the dregs. Yeah, they're exchanging 20s. Like it's just like guys smoking and being like, you owe me 20. Now you owe me 40. The Hustler is also a tragedy. Like I forgot how much that movie is. Straight up a tragedy. It's a guy whose life is broken and in trying to sort of solve himself, he experiences greater tragedy. Right, right. And that's all the backstory for this movie, which is so interesting that he doesn't give the big monologue explaining what happened in the first film. Kid, I was a hustler. He sort of alludes to it. If Piper Laurie shows up in your movie, nothing good's happening. It would be funny if they did like one legacy sequel like your next opponent is Minnesota Fats. And then you like, you know, outcomes from the shadows, Gleason, old. I mean, was Gleason still alive? Do you know? So. Because he's obviously in like Smoking the Bandit stuff, right? In the. There was a. He was, oh, one year from death. Yes. Gleason dies the next year. But this is the whole backstory. Yes. Okay, okay, we'll talk about this. No, no, no, tell me because I haven't looked at the dossier yet. We'll get through it more in depth, but there was a sequel book called, Color of Money. They basically only take the title from it, but the book has major Minnesota Fats. Which makes sense if you're going to write a sequel to The Hustler. Like, even when they start developing scripts and go like, throw all that out, start fresh. They kept writing in parts for Minnesota Fats and Newman was like, I think we should get Gleason back. And they finally were like, it only made sense to basically have like one extended scene. We couldn't justify making him a bigger part, but they offered it to Gleason and he was like, too small, not going to do it. Yeah, I mean like, and Newman, was like, he said, and I agree, that his like, participation in the movie wouldn't really do much for the story. It was more like, being a force ghost. You know, like, we were, Sims and I were explaining this movie. Fuck the ball, like he's just old, like sitting in a chair. Yes? We were explaining this movie to your friend, Ellen Cushing, co-host of Your Secret Podcast. It's different, everyone subscribe. I have a baseball podcast. Oh, you do? Yeah, I just recorded it in my friend's house. Yeah. That's great. But, we were trying to explain what this movie is. She had an, heard of it. And I was like, it's the original legacy sequel. And David went, yeah, you're right. Like, and Minnesota Fats would have been the original sort of like, cheap pop. Yeah. If he showed up for one scene, or showed up in the post credits, that would have been the original like, the audience applauds when it happens, but 10 minutes later, they feel gross about it. I also don't know that The Hustler exists in people's like, collective imaginations as like, a sentimental favorite that they're like, could we bring, could we bring Minnesota Fats back? Like, it's a cool, it's a cool character. Yeah. But it's like, that wouldn't hit the way, like the way we like, work these. No. Like legacy cameos into these new movies. No. I mean, Jackie Gleason was so iconic that, that maybe there's a degree of that. When's the movie he makes with Jack, with Richard Pryor? The toy? Oh, that's early, that's 82? Yeah. His final film is nothing in common, which is the Gary Marshall, Tom Hanks movie. Bad dad comedy. Where, where they're both, they're looking at each other on the poster going like, but Gleason's got a stokey. He's got a fat cigar. I've told this story many times, but there, there was a, the, the foundation of our friendship, Sims and I, was doing movie trivia night together at a bar called Videology. And, there was a question of, what is the name of the movie that Jackie Gleason and Tom Hanks did together? And I was like, oh fuck, I can picture the poster and the two of them looking at each other and it's not nothing but trouble. It's nothing, nothing, nothing. And I couldn't figure it out. And I looked at one of our teammates whose name is K-A-M-E-N and I went, common. I wouldn't have got it if I wasn't looking at his face and remembering what his name is. Gleason could have done it, but yeah. What, why was I saying this? Oh, that you, does Minnesota Fats hold the same sort of like cultural memory? Is he Yoda? No. You did discover Sims that there was a licensed but not connected to the movies, licensed off the books only Sega Genesis game. Genesis and Saturn. Okay. Called Minnesota Fats Pool Legend. Did you, did you check it out? Did you, did you buy a Saturn maybe? No, I think the first thing I do is go to eBay and buy a Saturn and get this. It's just so funny. I was seeing that it's technically the sequel to a different Billiards game. Yeah. And clearly they were just like, we need our Madden-esque hook. What's the name that moves units? We're not going to pay the Jackie Gunn Gleason likeness rights, but can we just get the name of the character from the book and put some other fat guy on the cartridge? Yeah, they have some full motion video of just a Minnesota Fats type. Mostly it's, you know, pool. Mostly you're playing pool. So that looks like basically like a bar blackjack machine version of it. It does. Yeah. I can't remember if I've ever played a pool video game. It never really came into the rotation. Doesn't feel like a good translation. I would also say the fact that, like, billiards is a tabletop game. Yeah. I like to play video games of things I can't do. Right. Yeah. Right. Like street fighting. You're playing Sega Genesis in like a rumpus room in your dad's basement. You guys want to play pool? There's a 20% chance there's already a billiards table next to the Genesis. No, no, no, no, no. Just over here. It's even better because it's on the TV. All right. What is our podcast, Griffin? Our podcast is called Blank Check with Griffin and David. I am Griffin. I'm David. And it's in the podcast. It's in the way that we use it. That's right. It's a podcast about filmography's directors who have massive success early on in their careers and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want. And sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce. Maybe. This is the film that is derisively thought of as his purest paycheck gig. That is sort of the weird legacy of this movie within his career. We were both arguing that's kind of bullshit, but it certainly got hit with that at the time. Must admit, though, it is the guarantor that allows him to immediately then make Last Temptation of Christ and Goodfellas. And it stabilizes his career. happen in that way if not for this. It stabilizes his career is the right way to put it. It just, right. His career is in trouble and he takes a gig. He does a fucking great job with it. It doesn't feel dispassionate. It wins Oscar. It makes money. It's a line drive down the middle. Right. And it's so well made. In the lexicon of Blank Check, this would be, you say stabilizer, it's like the guarantor. Guarantor is the term we usually use that is. That's like the thing that gets you the Blank Check. It's the hit that lets them give you the Blank Check. Right. You can't call Last Temptation a Blank Check because that's him being like, I'm going to spend every penny. Yes. Like, but I don't get that much. You know, we're going to go out to the desert. Last Temptation is you mortgage the house. Right. And he's like, if we put a pipe of fire, that can be saved. If I promise to make Kate fear, will you let me do this? But that movie was so risky and he had tried to do it for so long. Like his Blank Check is Gangs of New York. Yes. That is his true, like, I really, this nonfiction book about Bowery gangsters, can I have $100 million and build a set? New York, New York is also the first Blank Check. That's the first one. That's a pure Blank Check. Right. And I would say basically post Gangs of New York, most of his 21st century work is Blank Check-y. But Gangs of New York is the most. No, 100%. Right. But then I think he just enters a phase where it's like, here's the deal if you want to make a Marty movie. Unless it's silence, unless he's back to Last Temptation, I know this is so risky that I got to make the smallest version of it possible. He's like, I want a nine-month shoot and $150 million. Yeah. And then he also gets, I guess, to continue the language, to use the language of it. Once the Departed comes along and he does the run with DiCaprio, it's like, well, I have, I have this guy co-signing the lease. Exactly. But stabilizer is a term we haven't used before. And you're right. Let's add it to the lexicon because it is a thing that's, sometimes we'll talk about a comeback film. He's like getting his credit limit back up to the 700s. It was like 492. Like Raiders of the Lost Ark as a comeback post-1941 is a pure like, he bottomed out and then he struck gold as hard as you possibly could. This is just like, everything is kind of safe again. You know, he still has to like put a lot on the line to make Last Temptation. But notably, this was his one movie where he was like, I'm coming in under schedule, under budget to prove a point. You know, I looked on Reddit. Color of Money is generally agreed to be the first legacy sequel. Some people are like, does Return to Oz count? It's the year before. I'm like, not really. Like, because it's not, I mean, yes, it has the characters, but like, it's too weird. It's too weird. You're not repeating the same designs. Obviously not repeating the same cast. Some people are like, Dawn of the Dead kind of counts because it was a long, like, wait between movies. But like, they don't have the same characters. It's just a sequel. Yeah. And this, like, the tagline for this movie was The Hustler, capital H, Hustler. Right. Isn't what he used to be, but he has the next best thing, a kid who is. So it's very much like, the hustler's here. Our friend. The rejected tagline for this movie was Nineball is rotation pool. Who's our guest? Our guest today, in person, in studio for the first time. Very excited. Very excited. So excited. Chris Ryan. Off of, well, not by the time this comes out, but you're still kind of coasting off of CR month. Yeah. CR month is extending into CR year. I was going to say, it might be a CR decade now. I hope. I mean, yeah. Why not me, right? Why not you? Everybody else is getting smacked kind of into CR month. But I got to be there. You got to be there. And they got to beat the Celtics. Yes. Which was great. And we salute them and thank them for doing that. I salute them and thank them for doing that. And thank you to Daryl Morey, who, as of this recording, had just lost his job after putting together that team. Will he, like, have another NBA job? Or is this it? I wonder whether or not this is. Sorry to do two minutes. And also, did we say the team name? I'll allow it. The Sixers. Philadelphia 76ers. The Philadelphia 76ers. And this is their general manager, president, who got fired after the season. Right. And kind of a king of NBA dorkdom who has maybe, you know, become a little bit of a fossil. I think he could do, like, a very good job. He could do a very successful podcast if he wanted to do it. Oh, he absolutely could do that. Yeah. But, like, does he want to run another. I don't know. I will call out that this is a miniseries on the films of Martin Scorsese. It's called Podcast Fellas. Today, we're talking about The Color of Money. We were originally trying to. It felt obvious to get you on Master & Commander, the far side of the world. And we were like, last time we did it over Zoom, it'd be really nice to do it in person. Schedules weren't lining up. And around the time where it was like, do we just do Master & Commander? Is there a chance you end up coming here? We're like, we're in the middle of our March Madness thing. And it looks like it's probably going to shake out to be Tony Scott versus Martin Scorsese. And you said, well, if that happens, I'm moving to New York. And I'm on every episode. It did kind of feel like, you know what? Let's save it. Because between those two guys, you're going to have a pick you're passionate about. And then when it landed on Marty, we said, what are your, you know. And you said, like, obviously, I'd do any of them, but these five are the big ones. Immediately felt like Color of Money just sort of jumps out at you. Yeah. Yeah. As being correct. The best possible episode in a lot of ways. There is a rewatchables Color of Money episode. There is. I listened to it. Yes. You, Bill, and Sean, the big three. You know, it's great. I don't remember all the specifics. I'm just not done talking about it. You know, it's like, I was kind of like, with Master & Commander, I was like, ooh, this would be fun because I've never actually done it. I've never actually. How has that not been a rewatch? I guess, whatever. Maybe eventually it will be. And that could have been one because, like, during CR month, I had, I would say, 85% curatorial power, you know? Or I would, I would be making the suggestions and then, or Bill would be making the suggestions and I would pick or I would exchange. As Christopher Nolan always says, it's never truly a blank check. It's collaborative. You know what I mean? We all have bosses. They're always conditioned. But what were some of the picks? For CR month, it was Sicario. Sick. Fargo. Sicario. Sick, Cario, Fargo, To Live and Die in L.A., L.A. Confidential, and I feel like I'm missing one. Nice Guys. Nice Guys. Which I feel like that was. Which was weirdly like a bunch of L.A. movies, which I didn't intend to intentionally do. Yeah, it's true. You didn't do like an East Coast movie. But it was a very cool month to be able to just be like, fuck, they shot that right there. Right. This is awesome. You know? It's become a less frequent occurrence as the years have gone on just because our schedule has too many masters to serve. But Ben, we allot a Ben's Choice. Oh. Every once in a while. It used to be. As like sort of a palate cleanser between a series. But kind of our closest equivalent. But that, if you want to just tell Chris some of the Ben's Choice canon. Let's hear it. Fetch. Bang. Under Siege 2. Yes. Has never seen Under Siege 1. Oh, now has. I have. At the time, hadn't. Not a legacy sequel. No. Really. Clifford. Okay. Not the dog. What is it then? The Martin Short movie. Oh, okay. Have you not seen it? I have not. Oh. I'll check it out. Yeah. Clifford. It's worth it. Okay. Yeah. It's basically the most evil child. 12-year-old child. Martin Short plays a child who torments Charles Byrne. Oh, I remember this. Yeah. I never saw it. I never saw it, but I do remember like. It's sort of like The Omen if it's not supernatural, but the child is played by an adult. Yeah. Yeah. It's really fun. It feels like he possesses a cosmic evil, but he doesn't actually have powers. Sure. Right. Assassin's Creed. Yep. Fassbender one? Yeah. I'm not aware of another. Similarly, a movie Ben loves despite at the time he picked it. Assassin's Creed? The original one? Okay. Not a big deal. David, just don't talk for a while. Similarly, Ben had never played a second of any Assassin's Creed game before choosing it for an episode having watched the movie 20 times. Sure. And then most recently, Edge of Tomorrow. Yeah. Edge of Tomorrow's great. But anyway, I had not talked about Master of Command before, but obviously, I have spoken about Color of Money on Rewatchables and then in various forms of the big picture, but I still feel like there's chalk on the stick. I've done like 15 fucking episodes on the Muppet movie while still every year pushing David to be like, can we do the proper Henson-Oz combo series? And I question like, have I just shot, you know, my load on this? Have I shared the takes everywhere else? I'm like, every time I watch that movie, I got new thoughts. It's an endless well. I'm never going to run out of stuff to say. And they're very similar movies, the Muppet movie and Color of Money. I'm going to string a little hammock right under the desk for those. David's fucking rude joke that he says he's going to go on vacation. I'll just fucking leave me in a room alone to monologue. You won't even notice. It's my swimming to Cambodia. Another thing about the Swedish chef. He's not, I wouldn't have much to say. He's not a major part in that film. Yeah, fucking right. Yeah, that's right. We went to baseball yesterday. I was so happy. We went to baseball, as they say. We went to see the Mets defeat the Tigers and go in a night too. You're going tonight? Yeah. Subway series. Got to see them. Oh, the Subway series is starting? Yeah. I mean, the Mets Yankees. I liked that as a kid. Sure. It's very rare as a kid. Rare. Good hook. Now, in case the listeners were wondering you know, was this just a regular sort of night or day, I should say, out at the baseball game? Why was I so interested in going? It was funny that, right, Griffin was like, should we go to like a baseball game? David's so into the Mets. We could do it as a team. One second later, just text like, Star Wars day, I found this. We're going to this one. Free bobblehead. We got to go. Oh, you have the bobblehead to show up. Great. I think we should also unveil this. Nolan McLean. Wow. Very cool. I do think we should leave some of this for the Mandalorian. Yeah, we won't talk about it. Yeah, it will have happened. We're just telling Chris. Yeah. Okay, cool. When did you first see this film? This is some kind of VHS rental in like, 88, 89. Right, in 86, how old are you? Nine. Yeah, you're nine. Yeah. So a little, but, no, I wouldn't put it past my dad to have this one. And I could see nine-year-old being, you being obsessed with this movie immediately. And I have very early memories because it was the 80s that like, I would spend Sundays not in pool halls, but in bars with my dad where he would be like, here are some quarters to go play video games in the corner and I'm going to sit here for five hours and watch football. And that's how we built this country. We need to go back to that. Exactly. How close or far are you from being able to do that with your children? Pretty far. Yeah, pretty far. Pretty far. I mean, and also, and I wouldn't like, you know, it's not like, but like, I, especially in Britain, when I moved there and you would like, hang out with your friends' dads, they'd be like, we're going to the pub. Yeah. I don't want to look at your faces. Like, I will be seen. Try not to inhale too much secondhand smoke. You kids run around. Like, sometimes you go to like a pub that had like a backyard and be like, just fucking get out of here. If you want some chips, I'll get you some chips. But like the, when I saw the movie, even before I understood any of what I was watching, I understood the, the accuracy in which it captured like a certain feeling of those places. I was going to say, I, when I tried to imagine the cartoon child version of you, I, I imagine you were a little similar to my brother who, if, A movie was about sports in any way. He was 1000% lying. locked in, especially if it's about like the actual, the psychology, the milieu, the world, the business, any of those things. It didn't matter how mature it was, how dry it was. He was just like, this is a portal into a world I want to understand. As I've said before in the show, his ninth birthday party was making all of his friends at school watch a VHS of Michael Mann's Ali. And it was his seventh time watching. He's nine. So it's like his Assassin's Creed. Yeah, right. And he's like, it's interesting politically what he's like, you know, it was just like, if there's some prism of sports through this, that's then like an understanding of how adults function or history. I was talking about this with somebody else because I was talking about Excalibur with Paul who works at Radiance and Transmission, the DVD label. And we did a pod of his podcast called Old Movies. We were talking about Excalibur. And I was like, man, that time in your life where you're actually just watching movies entirely based on your own personal passions, but not movies. You're like, so if this movie is about a thing that I love, like King Arthur or baseball or whatever, then I'll watch the movie no matter how good or bad it is. And I'll watch the movie 45 times. But then eventually that turns into I love movies. So I want the movie itself to be successful in some aesthetic way. And it's like this. This is right at a turning of the wheel. And it's like, I love movies. I love movies. I love movies. I love of the page for me like whenever I actually watched it and then I've just returned to it over and over again just because at any given point in my life I'm deeply fascinated by some aspect of it whether it's Richard Price or Scorsese or Newman or Cruise or whatever so it's just always been there is this do you think this would have been the first Scorsese you saw you know if you're like 10 11 years old like it's like you know that's a great question like taxi driver raging bull yet like probably not no and if I did because like my parents would watch movies while I was like kind of like upstairs and I would come to the landing and sort of peek down the stairs to see what they were watching this is why I remember Miami Vice always the the TV show so vividly is that I was like I was not allowed to be there grown up but but I would watch it from like 30 feet away on a down angle was my mom with ER and Seinfeld the only two TV shows she respected my mom also so ER was like the double barrel ER and NYPD blue were the big two I remember where it's like all right out of the room and then pretty quickly with ER I got to stay in the room because she was like I guess it's medical like it's not it's like you're learning lessons yeah it's like it's not that lurid like I'm a doctor instead of a dirty film critic then instead I watched Ally McBeal with her and was like I want to be a lawyer they all hang out in a fun office and do songs well that was baby that was ed for us we were we were into the bowling alley not the sexy lawyer um did your dad take you to screenings yeah yeah well this was my other question just of of the era was your dad ever getting screeners for reviews or was he always going they had like a pretty robust like the Philadelphia critics would go see and it would be the Enquirer and the Daily News and the TV critics and you know the WHYY critic and the NPR person back when fucking things were correct yeah there was like a robust local journalism I mean I went to a my my sort of earliest most crystal clear memory of this of of being with him is for Rocky 4 at a real palace on Chestnut Street um in Philly and that's the year before Rocky 4 is 85 right yeah and him snapping at someone for talking during Rocky 4 the premiere of it and being like dad shut the fuck up you know please like this is Rocky 4 and we are in Philadelphia there might be some crowd going go get a rock and he's just like I'm watching this it's like can't you put it together what's happening here I'm watching here I uh I was always fascinated by like especially I feel like talk shows in the 90s where the host would talk about like hey I saw I saw your movie the studio sent me a screener and I would be like right so like David Letterman is watching a new release movie before it's come out on VHS in bed yeah do you think he's watching Color of Money and then just like Newman's here tonight that would always be the implication and I was always curious about like what percentage of film critics are being sent these screeners versus they're telling them they have to go to the I don't ever remember there being an advanced tape at my dad's house I think it was just a lazy fucking talk show host thing yeah I probably didn't see this movie till I was in college and was sort of like embarking on being like a Scorsese completist or whatever and was like oh I should watch that one I definitely saw The Hustler when I was a teenager because my dad loved that I saw The Hustler in high school as sort of my my self-imposed film education right uh I had never seen this movie in full I had basically whoa this was like a Cloverfield monster like watching it I was like I have seen almost every scene of this yeah but it was a oh I'm watching 20 minutes on cable I'm seeing scenes on YouTube kind of thing and this is like a big cable movie yeah right like this is all but I had never truly like sat down watch it from beginning to end very very little of it felt totally new to me but the experience of watching it as a whole was so I was like oh my god I'm gonna watch this movie I'm gonna watch this movie yeah and I re-watched The Hustler and then watched this straight through and I would say probably in there's there's a long period of time where I watched the first hour of this a lot uh the first hour of this is like better than Citizen Kane and then and then it goes into the kind of twilight of middle age like yeah which is good which is really good it's a little less thrilling there's a drop off for me we've been talking about this because some of the weird movies have this as well where it's a movie that remains excellent but the first 45 minutes to an hour feels like hypnotic like supernaturally powerful I can't believe it this is dancing on the edge of a pin like this is the best thing I've ever seen right and then right and then the third act you're kind of like I guess that makes sense that they did that but I'm a little less the original Hustler by the way sort of has that too where like the the opening uh Minnesota Fats like challenge is half an hour it's basically a mono scene that is like there's a little cold opening scene do one hustle and then there's basically half an hour of like one endless night that is transfixing it's hypnotic so the other thing that immediately grabbed me about this movie when I was young even if I couldn't finish it or found the second half of it to be like incomprehensible just because of like what emotional pain is this guy going through as he gets manipulated by Forrest Whitaker and stuff like that it was the language and immediately immediately responding in a way like with price and with Mamet when I was young I was like nobody's taught like I've never heard people talk like this but this is how people talk and that's that was always the thing that continues to grab me about it I I think similarly any movie that introduces its own vocabulary immediately has me leaning in if it's a vocabulary that is real I get the sense of this is giving me a chance to like get into a world where people talk this way rather than just making up fake like planet names or whatever especially the vocabulary of con artists scams crimes it it's just crack to me yeah and and pool hustlers and I mean I just I still remember her her saying on the snap Vincent just being like what oh a woman will say on the snap to you do or did you ever play a lot of pool I did play a fair amount of pool I was never that good although I'm sure that's what you say yeah I was just pretending you're drunk this is crazy I've never done this before uh I'll take any old cute weird luck but I got I got again I think enough of a run in a time in American history where it was pretty routine to have a pool table in a bar and now it is increasingly rare that is true I I can't remember the last time I was at a bar that had so billiards table so I used to it's so funny you keep saying billiards table which makes it sound very classy I'm a man I used to hang out at two bars that still have uh pool tables basically for all my 20s my my best friend was in a band and every Saturday band would rehearse then I would hang out with them at the bar you should just say Jared Leto three seconds tomorrow you don't need my best friend Molly who's the bassist in an art rock band called thrillington I went to some of those concerts yeah yeah great I was always at a and uh full full circle bar in Williamsburg which I think is still there where you get free drinks on your birthday and buttermilk in Park Slope which is still there and has a pool table on a you know slight slant but you know it's there and I would play pool with all night I'm terrible I think objectively but what's better than racking some balls with your bros there's also like most of those bar pool tables they're like you know what the other side of this is right against the wall so don't don't put yourself in any kind of position where you have to shoot from that side of the table I love it whenever that's when it's like a Friday night and like you know someone is trying to play pool but it's so packed that you're like just getting hit by a stick when you're on your way to the bathroom the circumstances the setup the equipment is not ideal but it's in the way that you use it there's also I live near a pool hall uh like not that far like in Park Slope there's Oceans 8 which still exists yes which is like a classic by Gary Ross yeah yes a classic dingy ass like basement with like 20 pool tables and like I've not been there in years I I the guys who are there are a certain kind of guy and I'm not up to playing pool with any of them they abide by the Assassin's Creed yeah basically what's the one near Aster Place? I don't know. On University. I think it might be University Billiards or something like that. That sounds right. And that is the classic architecture of a relatively narrow staircase. Amsterdam Billiards. Yeah, Amsterdam. And then you're like, wait, when I walk outside of this thing, it's just a storefront. And when you go inside, it's like, did Charlie Kaufman direct this? How did you guys find a full city block of pool tables that go back this way? It's like Disney World, where the rides are never actually in the building they pretend the ride is in. It's in some weird warehouse to the side. You take a tram to get to the pool tables. They lower you down underground. It's also one of those places where it does not matter what time of day it is, if you walk up those stairs and look out the window, it's night now. Yeah. They basically have poker room lighting where it's just like, yeah, man, whatever. It's okay if you're here at 11 a.m. It's 9 p.m. I can't say, I don't think I've ever played nine ball. I always played eight ball, obviously, like what any idiot knows how to play. I played snooker in Britain sometimes, but snooker is incredibly difficult. So I was going to ask, do they have a different name for pool hall? Like, do they call it like a, I don't know, like a fucking snooker parlor? You know what? I think they spelled with a U. A snookery? Do they have snookeries? Like, or is it just there's a snooker table? Okay, so this, you guys are doing something that is what Americans do, which is they say snooker. I remember my mom would say snooker. Like, I moved to England where they televised snooker on primetime television. Like, you turn on, I would turn on the TV and she'd be like, are you watching someone play pool? And I'm like, it's snooker. Like, it's like, it's fun. It's cool to watch. And it has the, is it where they have the little wood, like, things on the table? Or is that something else? No. I have no idea what that, snooker is based on. Are you talking about Baccarat? No, there's like a version of pool where they have little, like, like, things on the tabletop. I remember my uncle had it growing up. I'll look what it is. I don't know. I mean, in Britain, you call it a pool parlor, a billiard hall, whatever. Like, you know, but you know snooker, surely. I do know snooker, but snooker and cricket remain, like, I could watch this for 300 years and not know the rules. There's nothing like, just Google, like, Ronnie O'Sullivan doing, like, a perfect break in snooker. It's so cool. But it's like, it's nine reds and then six or seven colored balls. And you have to do red, then color, red, then color, red, then color. And then you have to pocket all of the colors in a specific order. It's, like, very complex and it's all about, like, snookering someone is putting the ball where the other player's gonna be fucked. This sounds like some Van Hemersley teaching by billiards bullshit. To invoke one of my favorite comedy sketches of all time. I think one of the most ingenious parts of Color of Buddy is actually, like, Scorsese sets up nine ball pretty well. You're like, yeah, you know what? I get it. You know, like, broadly, I understand. One to nine, baby. Yeah, and then it's for TV and that it moves fast and they play a lot of games and you can get lucky. No, it's it's true. He's so good at not bothering you at all with, like, details about it without, right, like, ignoring it. It's also the second anyone's like, eh, that's, like, Scorsese picking up a paycheck. You're like, do you think he's anything less than thrilled by the potential of how to shoot this game? Because this is not just, like, Flash style over substance shit. He's got, like, you know, Paul Newman and a Richard Price script. But I feel he is as cinematically activated. Richard Price's first script. That's wild. Like, you know, kind of like, hey, this celebrated novelist is writing a screenplay. Like, you know, it was, like, a big deal. But you just feel him, like, rubbing his hands together and going, like, oh, shit. On the impact of the cue hitting the ball, I could move the camera from here to here. And it's all, like, you have found a way to make this game feel ecstatic. The, the, I mean, we'll talk about the movie. But, like, the crash zoom when, like, when Newman breaks and you're just like, oh, Martin Scorsese. Scorsese loves cocaine. Like, you know, like, it's just, like, Martin Scorsese, who I don't even know where he, but, like, he's, like, he understands. Like, you're just, like, Newman's like, oh, shit. This is the greatest feeling in the world. I forgot. Like, the way it, like, just jumps on his face when he finally picks up a cue again. I think he's kicked it by this point. Yeah, I think he has. But Scorsese's like, I know how I would feel if someone, like, gave me a line. He's basically making a movie as he's just put his Vince to bed and is trying to be in his fast Eddie. I just sell liquor. I'm going to open the dossier. Martin Scorsese, I'm going to tell you guys a little bit. I do want to tell you that right before this movie, he did direct an episode of Steven Spielberg's Amazing Stories called Mirror, Mirror. We will be covering that on Patreon. I don't know much about it. Have you seen the short film? I've only seen the title card that says directed by Martin Scorsese and people being like, we used to do great things on television. I was going to say, pretty good title card. To put on anything. A sign of quality. Ben has just kind of like a horror thing. He's texted us a photo of a billiards table. It's called Bumper Pool. It looks like a fucking pinball table. Yeah, this looks very complicated, I will say. And it was like a thing where I'm like, I would have loved to have played when I was at my uncle's house, but I was like, I don't know what this is. I don't know how to play this. But that's what I thought Snooker was. Anyway. It's 24 minute television film, six day shoot. He didn't have final cut. So I don't know that he really enjoyed it, but it was his first ever horror movie or horror thing. And he loves like, you know, Val Luton. He loves like Mario Bava. Obviously, he's very into like Cronenberg. He's into horror. It's funny that he never. Shutter Island. Shutter Island's the closest. Shutter Island is his. Cape Fear is pretty horror. Yeah, both of those I would still fundamentally call thrillers. Shutter Island is definitely the closest. Shutter Island, he's really using the horror imagery of those filmmakers. The touchstones of these guys, right. And it kind of sounds like this new thing. Cape Fear as well. This new, what's it called? It Happened at Night Originally. It's going to have a touch of that. I hope so. It's going to be a little Rebecca or whatever. Right, yeah. It's the only time he ever works with Michael Kamen. I don't know why I'm talking about this. It's not important. We will have covered it on Patreon. Right, exactly. Or we'll cover it right after this. In 86, he's in a film that I watched relatively recently because I'm watching a lot of 1986 movies for a big picture draft that may or may not ever happen. Yes, an undated big picture draft. He is kind of like the third or fourth most important character in Round Midnight, the Termini movie. Oh, yeah. He is like when Dexter Gordon comes to New York, the fast-talking guy who's like, okay, let me take you to the bars. You know, like, I'll take you to your concert, Mr. Dexter Gordon. Chris, we saw The Mandalorian and Grogu last night. We just went to meet up with him at a bar. And how is Dexter Gordon in it? Yeah. Scorsese is so good in it. It's insane. It actually is crazy how suited he is to it. He came in and told me that Scorsese's in it. And for like a full minute, I was like, so Martin Scorsese just walks into the bar in The Mandalorian and starts doing Martin Scorsese. I didn't know he was doing the voice of an alien. Yes, and I don't know if it's mocap. I don't think they do much mocap in these movies. But I will say the creature, they really got his mannerisms down. You do feel like you're seeing a true representation of Scorsese on screen. And the performance is so good. And I would say basically everyone else in the movie is so wooden that David and I were like gripping our armrests being like, holy shit, he's so fucking locked in. The other one who's good is Stephen McKinley Henderson. He is. He's also great as another alien. Yes. But it is this thing. And I felt the same way watching his arc on the studio last season where I'm like, look, he's arguably the greatest living American filmmaker. I want him to make as many movies as he can with his remaining years, which hopefully are decades ahead of us. I would love if he got some more acting roles in there as well. I am always so happy anytime he is acting in something. He is always so fucking good. I don't want him to be like, you know what? It's fun being on Shrinking. I'll just do that instead of making films. No, but I love him to do more one, two scene things. Yeah. Well, Round Midnight's an example that he had been in Paris. He was scouting locations for Last Temptation like, you know, a prior version of it and like was like hanging out with Bertrand Tavernier, the guy, you know, the director links him with Erwin Winkler, his producer Scorsese. And it's basically like, you know, he wants to make a film set in New York blah, blah, blah. And Bertrand is like, you will have to play the owner of the club you know, like when I do this. And so that is why he's in that film. He's very good. Last Temptation obviously is Scorsese's 80s mountain that he's trying to climb. Yeah. You know, and he's trying to do it in the early 80s. It fails. And so he makes After Hours as a sort of pivot out of that of like, I'll just do something. After Hours is kind of an interesting, it's like a partial reset movie where he just needed to show that he could make something that wasn't a disaster. A, he needed to like get back on the horse. Yes. And not just like curl up in a ball. Incredible movie. Right. It rules. Yes. But it was a cheap movie. It was made independently. Warner Brothers releases it. It does okay. He's sort of back in like a safety zone without necessarily the studios trusting that they could give him a lot of resources and that he would use it responsibly. That is also another movie which is somehow not made on cocaine. Yeah. Where it's just, but it is it is the sense memory of cocaine for me. It's, it's, it's both of these movies feel like if I, if I'm going to truly not touch that shit anymore. It will be the central preoccupation of my art. I need to, like, work through what it meant to me. It'll be the vibe guide of everything I do. I would say, like, through Goodfellas, right? Like, Last Temptation's the interruption, but he's like, I need to cinematically say goodbye to this thing. Yeah, it really culminates with the helicopters above every hill. Right, and then it's like, goodbye to cocaine. He's like, no, I think I'm good. I think Casino's got some coke in its blood. I would not say Casino is, like, a movie where, you know, cocaine is a main character. In the same way. For Sharon Stone, it is. I think you're going to remember when you rewatch Casino. Some other movies he was linked to around him. Dick Tracy. Right. We'll talk about this whenever we do Warren Beatty, but he was a contender to direct with Warren starring, I believe. Right, right, right. Winter's Tale, which has eventually turned into one of the oddest movies ever made. But at the time, yes, at the time, it's like a hot new book. He's attached to that. But Mark Halperin. I believe he's the novelist. A biopic of Gershwin, written by Paul Schrader, which has never come to pass. And an adaptation. Can you imagine? I mean, can you imagine? An adaptation of the Elmore Leonard novel, La Brava, that Dustin Hoffman wanted to make. I've never read La Brava. I think that's one of the Detroit ones. So I think that's a Detroit crime one. No. No. I'm not. No, it's like Joe La Brava, former Secret Service agent. Oh, is he in Florida taking pictures? He gets involved with a former movie star. Yeah, that's Florida. I've never. Yeah. Hoffman, you know, who's famously like the most gigantic pain in the ass in the world, is trying to make it into a movie for years. It ends up at Canon. Yeah. It never happens. Life's too short to work with Dustin Hoffman was a oft repeated phrase in Hollywood for decades. Now, color money. Michael Ovitz. Guys heard of him. Speaking of guys with normal energy, a super agent who founded CAA. One of his biggest clients is Paul Newman. And he's, you know, trying to win his guy an Oscar. Paul Newman watches Raging Bull on, I guess, Ovitz's recommendation and says, like, that's one of the best things I've ever seen. And Ovitz is like, why don't you fucking make a movie with Marty? Well, let's call out another connection. Jake LaMotta is in The Hustler as a bartender. Oh, shit. Sure. The real. Jake LaMotta. Right. Yeah. So that's a one of the reasons that Paul Newman is leaning in and watching that movie is like, you know, oh, I'm interested. I knew Jake LaMotta. I interface with this fucking guy. And he's seeing like, man, Scorsese got him right. And is connecting those dots. There's also, you know, Ovitz was Scorsese's neighbor for a long time. I think he lived underneath. And he shared an office with Harry Offland, who was Scorsese's agent back in the 70s. Yeah. So he's always been into him. But but like, do you think Ovitz lived near Scorsese during Scorsese and Robbie Robertson staying up all night watching horror movies when they're editing? Yeah. And Ovitz just had like a big funnel and he would suck the coke fumes from the next door window. I don't know if it's in the dossier here, but it sounds like Ovitz when he was like young and getting started. Yeah. Right. Like living adjacent to Scorsese in that time. And that Scorsese would like loan him movies, show him movies, bring him upstairs to show him a VHS. That there was a little bit of cinematic education. This is an example of what Ovitz was sort of smart about. It's like Newman's like, I'd like to work with Marty. Sure. And Ovitz is like, write him a letter. It's going to mean a lot. And Paul Newman's like, what? And he's like, right. Just trust me. Write him a letter saying you admire him. He admires you. Paul Newman's like, he does. And he's like, yeah, sure. Like, you know, like convinces him to do this. Drops the letter personally to Marty. Like gives him a person. And he says, like, Scorsese, like, opens the letter and like it lights up, even though it is a. It is. It is addressed to Michael Scorsese. But he forgives that. Yeah. He's still charmed. And, you know, like, you know, my guess is it's sort of like Ovitz is like, I know he's an artiste. He's probably not going to want to do like a commercial thing. So I'm going to try and like nudge him towards something commercial. Can I do a minute or two on Ovitz quickly? Because we've talked about him before. But I think this movie is a good. This is a big Ovitz project. Right. So for people who don't know, Michael Ovitz. Ovitz was one of the founders of CAA. Right. And he basically becomes the archetype of the modern agent. And part of that is sort of being an agent who also functions a little bit more like a manager. And I think the genius of what he did. And, you know, normal guy in our parlance. But to give credit to what he did successfully. And it had certain negative entail effects on the industry. It was sort of like he recognized a gulf in the collapse of the studio system that used to be invested in people's careers. It would have a director or an actor under contract and they would be managing them long term. Not just thinking about how do I get him a gig, but like, what's the arc we're building here? What's the next era we want to go into? That falls apart. Artists get their own independence. But suddenly it's like if you're Warren Beatty and you've got really good taste and you're smart and you're driving everything and you have that level of power, you're fine. You just need an agent to fucking make your contracts, close your deals. But some people don't have the same kind of vision. And Ovitz is like, this is what we're going to build our business on, is that we are thinking long term. It is a career business. It's not a gig to gig business. And the other part of it is the beginning of like super packaging. Right. And that's what this movie is a great example of, of just like, oh, fuck. If I can put like three insane elements together on paper and then go to the studios and say like, fuck you, you have five minutes to decide. This is a bidding war. It starts to change. Fuck you. It's about pool. Nobody's happy. Five minutes to decide. His famous example of this is that he puts together like Ghostbusters and goes to all of the studios and is like, like it's on everyone's table. You know, like start bidding. Here's everything. It's like the two funniest men in America from the director of Stripes and the other guy from Stripes is co-writing it and he's in it. And we're going to have special effects. And Slimer. Right. Slimer's a board. Because Slimer is tough. Yeah. Slimer is tough to get. Slimer's offer only. He was a CAA client. Slimer also a huge coke problem. It's funny. It's funny that you said that. Kind of a huge slime problem. There was this Ovid stance of him knowing that Scorsese was such an artistically driven man to drop my one story I have of working on vinyl where I had this incredible extended conversation with Scorsese that I sort of lucked into where he was talking fairly vulnerably about the criticism. criticism of him becoming a paycheck guy, that he was like, still very sensitive about the criticisms of his later period and the idea that he doesn't care does things for money now. And he was like, I very earnestly like every movie I've made, I deeply care about. And like some of them, I made more money on and some of them are more passionate to me and some things I developed in this and that. But I like never made a movie just for money. And you know, he's he said to me, I remember Mike Ovitz coming up to me at a party. I'm trying to think what the timeline of this would have been. It must have been pre after hours, right? Well, it's post Raging Bull, but I don't know. Sometime in this era, Raging Bull, King of Comedy, Mike Ovitz comes up to him at a post screening party or post premiere party for one of his movies and says, you know, Marty, there is a way to make money doing this. I mean, look, we're going to get there. That was a line he used to lure him into Color of Money. And there was sort of the dance of him being like, I'm not going to do something just for money. And he's like, but there's a way to do both. There is a way to make a movie the way you want to with like incredible assets like Paul Newman and also get paid, not lose your house trying to get it made and have it be commercially successful, which will ultimately, speaking to this long term career vision, help you. Help you get shit like Last Temptation or Gangs of New York made. They're not going to give you that if you keep making shit like King of Comedy. Yeah. And I'm sure also, I mean, it appeals to two sides of his sensibility. He's at once like I have archived a neorealist Serbian movie that eight people have seen. And he's also like Humphrey Bogart. Love him. Like, let's make like movie stars are awesome. And Hollywood is great. That's what's the best about him. Yeah. And so many of the filmmakers he grew up loving had careers like that. 1984, Walter Tevis publishes The Color of Money, sequel to his novel, The Hustler. He dies of lung cancer just a year later. Paul Newman is into it because he feels differently about Fast Eddie, basically, than any other parties played. And he's like, Eddie's not complete at the end of The Hustler. It's not like Butch Cassidy. He's not complete at the end of The Hustler. He's not complete at the end of the movie or whatever. Like, I often wondered about what he would be doing now. Like, it's not like a thing where like his story just because obviously The Hustler ends with him basically like in a hole. I don't know if this is controversial to say, but upon rewatching it, I think this is the best of the young Newman performances. I know he's incredible in Butch Cassidy and Cool Hand Luke and whatever. But like, it does feel like The Hustler gets something very unique. Yeah. My favorite's Hud. It's Hud. To me, it's like 100%. That's like the best screen performance. principal. He's pretty fucking astonishing in hostile yeah no he's awesome he's so awesome yes um and it's great because he's so hot and he's so charming and he plays such assholes in these movies he sure does you know it's like he actually like whatever he saw when he looked in the mirror yeah so divorced from what everybody sees when they look on screen it's fascinating because it does feel like there are there are actors like him who want to play unlikable because they feel burdened by their charisma you know or or the accessibility they have to people's right ugly me up or make me scary or what yeah and it feels performative and it feels hollow or it feels kind of like self-punishing yeah and with him it feels like a genuine not like a genuine reflection of a self-hatred but there is a very honest probing into the darkest sides of the psyche that don't feel stunty yeah yeah yeah and in some ways maybe a perfect foil or a perfect partner for scorsese because they're newman's like look like i flash the baby blues and everybody comes to the movie but then they get confronted with like the dregs of the human condition and scorsese's like i make camera move fast but we're gonna we're gonna actually get in yeah to some pretty dark stuff here so it's like it's the perfect medicine and sugar right yeah that's the other thing that like newman's seeing and raging bull of like man this guy's really good at dissecting what makes men terrible he really gets it he's not trying away from it um okay so uh the novel right he's into it uh tevis is given a shot at writing a screenplay he writes a draft another writer does another draft no name for that one um i've never read any i didn't i i didn't read color of money the the novel the tevis novel i don't think i don't know if the screenplay is around anywhere but the reporting on the screenplay is like it's basically a two-hander with fats and right because it's more going by the book right it's like rocky too yeah it's just like it's like we're old now and it's florida but like we're doing cable tv like exhibitions but then we're also hustling each other um it's more like creed too uh newman still doing the screenplay but he's remember scorsese loved raging bull scorsese has just done just finished on after hours and paul calls him and is like do you want to do a sequel to the hustler obviously like scorsese is like my taste is not in sequels but i do love paul newman like i mean how do you it's like the president calling you being like i need you to be the secretary of state or whatever also it's fucking paul newman this held the record for a long time of the biggest gap between sequel and original and i don't know if it's going to be the same thing but i think it's going to be as you said there was the the return to oz thing that doesn't really count and now we get more and more like your your shron legacies and your top gun mavericks where it's just casually you fucking right 37 40 years later whatever the fuck it is you know blade runner obviously the star war sequels uh at this time i think that already sounded novel and different it's novel it's novel for sure but there's but also back then sequels are so derided right godfather 2 is the only one that basically is taken seriously um yeah so newman sits down with him and he's like eddie reminds me of you know characters you've dealt with i feel like we should hear more from him i've got a script scorsese is intrigued uh he does not like the script uh because it is a literal sequel like you know basically like it even had like it was supposed to start with like stuff from the hustler i think it starts with like a 10 or 12 minute like or 12 page like this is from the hustler yeah right yeah uh and so uh you know they let the writer who wrote this script the unnamed writer one more draft that still doesn't they don't like it he doesn't really like the novel either so then he's basically like can we just drop the novel we'll keep the title but otherwise can we just like do something this is the power of the package is you don't go like well sorry you don't like the script thanks for considering this film let's find a new director you go no the selling point here is scorsese makes the hustler scene yes so let's figure out the version he wants to make so richard price who had written these books like the wanderers and blood brothers and see you know like price is sort of like what sort of early-ish in his career but yeah i think he's written like three or four books and then this marks his departure from novels to do screenplays until he comes back to write clockers which clockers is so good lush life is like the novel that's such a good book yeah um and he worked on the wire later in life and all that you know he became such a luminary uh he'd never written his screenplay that had been produced he'd done some you know he'd done some stuff uh in hollywood he was like a little hung up on a novel i guess and obviously you make a lot more money writing movies than you do write novels that may or may not get published yeah i mean i mean it's uh i re-watched martin fink again recently because it was playing at the paris with uh taturo doing a q a and i you know it's it just made me think about like right that's how hollywood used to run is they would just go to all great movies and they would just go to all great movies and they would just go to all great novelists and playwrights and go like look you're sitting in an office you're gonna get paid a lot more and then you can go back and write your little things and now it feels like they are the exceptions to the rule there are the couple you can call out where you're like that guy kind of successfully made the leap yeah who's like the most recent person i mean gillian flynn kind of did that yeah that's a good example for sure i mean like uh benioff is that yeah it's sort of forgotten now like he did like two novels and was like forget it yeah um so newman scorsese and price sit down and cal in malibu this is how price describes it me and marty the two new york guys were on the beach marty sitting there with his jacket and his nasal spray i'm smoking a cigarette hunched over coughing newman comes out all tanned up mr sienski eating a grapefruit we were two clowns with the hollywood platinum and then we just hammered out a plot line like you know in one day essentially like what's fucking eddie doing now the novel he like hooks up with a professor it's like a romance it's a weird like they open an antique store right seriously and the antique store gets burned down sorry for spoiling this novel that yeah uh so like so scorsese's basically like it's not like he's just been doing nothing he's just gotten like tougher and meaner to survive or whatever like that's kind of you know um but he needs to sort of re-educate himself to play again like that's that's you know the age of 52 he's you know blah blah blah and uh first time i met paul and i was like oh my god i'm gonna be like oh my god i'm gonna be like oh my god i'm gonna be like paul newman i asked him why this guy would start playing pool again in his 50s i said to paul why do you race if you don't win every time because paul loves a fucking you know race car right and uh newman just sort of looks at him and goes like that's the picture and like fucking great stuff you know because i mean that is like where it's like paul you're the hottest man alive everybody loves your lemonade right why do you also go to like le mans and drive a car for a day right like are you not satisfied and he's like i don't know there's something in me got a happy marriage you basically have an uninterrupted decades-long like minted movie star streak you still keep on getting in these crazy cars right yeah uh the first draft comes in too dark uh newman's like i think this is too uh you have made him a nightmare piece of yeah it's like eddie felson dragged up to golgotha wait a second uh so they're like look we're making a star vehicle the way uh score says it puts is like we're making a suit for the man you know it's got to come out of paul newman like you can't just like write like all this like piece of shit dialogue like you have to imagine like paul newman will be saying this like there needs to be some class yeah um and so you know they calibrate it and all that and it's interesting that like cruz is not mentioned for a while it's like the most fascinating thing about reading about the making of this movie is this guy's in top gun the same like it comes out what four or five months earlier yeah basically uh so they hit the lottery in that sense right he is not in any way doing tom cruise things where he's like it's important that this happens to my character and it's important like that's all right which is all you hear might be the last movie where that happened and it's funny because like his rep is like after this is like oh he wants to work with all these big right he wants to work with big and you figure he's the one who's like paul let's get marty you know or whatever like he's not he obviously uh you know risky business was big and predated this but it is fascinating that i think of this movie in his arc as being like this is him grabbing the torch and being like i'm i'm on the run now here we go i'm i'm i'm racing towards the fucking olympics and uh this felt like the last time he was just like hired to do something i watched he was on graham norton during the pandemic site because i watched the clip and i was like oh my god i'm on the run now i'm on the they were all sitting very far apart and so uh he told this story about doing what sounds like the aftermath of the werewolves of london scene where he's outside of the car and he's freezing the coat anecdote and the way he tells it it's not like and then of course paul and i became best friends after i mean i know that they were close but it sounds like newman's like a kid you know like hey but it's just like you're the supporting actor you know tom cruise the most controlled man 10 anecdotes he will share there are 10 personal things he will say right and one of them which I feel like he only started sharing in the last 10 years because I've seen him do it in a couple other places. I know he did it on the fucking Nerdist podcast, but the anecdote is that they're filming this thing outside and they call cut and immediately Paul Newman has like a PA come over and put a really warm coat on him. And he has like an electric heater. Yeah. Right. And Tom Cruise is like rubbing his arms and like freezing. And Paul Newman says something like, 54 pictures, kid. Basically implying like, I've learned how to make movies. I know what I need. And that Tom Cruise looks at it as this moment of like, that's what I'm working towards. Not just the quality of the movies and the consistency of the run, but to understand how to do this as a job, you know, and know every angle of what I need to be on top of. Yeah. Because he does his wardrobe fitting in the summer. So he's like, it'll be cool if I'm wearing a leather jacket and a t-shirt and it's like they're shooting in Chicago in January. It's going to be so cold. The subtext of the story is, that Paul Newman has the level of experience where he can do the math on every one of these things. He's not just thinking creatively. He's also going like, but wait, when is this scene going to film? And that's an exterior and this and that. And I feel like, Richard, I think it would be good if I was inside the Cadillac for that night scene. Chronologically, that feels like the last story he shares in which there is anything aspirational in the Tom Cruise persona. When he talks about anything he worked on after that, it is just like, I sat at the table. And I said, this is what we need to do, right? He tells the stories that are like, I was a little boy and I would repeat movie dialogue while staring at the ceiling while my family life was depressing. And then there's, I look at Paul Newman and I go, this is the guy I want to be. And after that, he is self-actualized. It is fascinating that I was saying to you, he must have shot this before Top Gun because he still looks kind of funky in this, but he shoots Top Gun first, then shoots this, and then has to go back and do reshoots for Top Gun. There's the scene where he's coming out of the shower in Top Gun. And that's because they had to wet his hair because he had grown it out. And it was like kind of wavy. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And they shoot the love scene in like Total Shadow for the same reason. There's something like that. But it's like, he doesn't seem to know what Top Gun's about to do for him. No, none of them do. The way Scorsese puts it is like, we're getting a little bit of money because of risky business. Like he's not an unfamous person. This casting is closer to hiring Miles Teller for Top Gun because you're like, he was good in Whiplash. Right. Yeah. Not like this is clearly the guy. Fox, they get Cruz aboard. Fox turns it down. Columbia turns it down. This is kind of crazy given the like the package or whatever. Katzenberg and Eisner, Disney, grab it. Put it on, you know, it's going to be a touchstone film. They've just taken over there after leaving Paramount. But they make Newman's salary insurance against Scorsese going over budget. So like Scorsese has such a reputation post New York, New York and such that they're like, even with all this, you know, even with after hours being cheap. Right. Yeah. Um, so he's got the big stars. It's his first time. He says, working with a movie star, like it's not like De Niro where like it's his friend. Right. It's different when it's a movie star. You help forge. Who's like your brother? He puts it. It's like, right. Like I'm looking at a face that I've been looking at since I was 12. There's a thousand movies on his face. Uh, Newman loves Scorsese says he's got an incredible eye. He's on you like a hawk. You can't do like your mannerisms with around him. Like he, he's, he's like, uh, he's immediately like, don't do that, you know, like, or whatever. And Newman's like, right. Can't be lazy or what? I can't like do whatever the usual shit is. I also want to say the best direction Scorsese gave him was, uh, don't try to be funny. Right. Sure. Yeah. As an overall. And he was just like, that's like really smart, mature direction. Um, another right. Cruise connection, you know, Michael Chapman, who is Scorsese's cinematographer for like Raging Bull and stuff, directed all the right moves. So that was another reason for Scorsese he had his eye on Cruise. Yeah. Um, uh, obviously everyone does their own pool playing, you know, cause, you know, they, they gotta do it. And obviously Cruise gets so into it. I was going to say, it is part of the Cruise mythology is I feel like this is the first time you hear about him going turbo on prep. The, the, the jump ball shot is the one that an expert does. Cause that's the one that he was like, I'm sure you could make this. It'll take days. But it'll be like nine days to get one shot. But it also feels like that's the thing he regrets for the rest of his career. I couldn't get that. I couldn't have done it. I could have figured it out. I had more in me. I could have done it. Um, you know, uh, Marty's parents are with him. I don't really, do Marty's parents just kind of travel around with him? They shot this movie in Chicago. Yeah. But I guess they're just there. Yeah. Uh, Cruise like has dinner with them every night. You know, he really loves Marty. Yeah. I mean, that's just what he's like. It's sauce. It's sauce is good. And they rehearsed the whole, the whole thing. Like Newman's very into rehearsals. They block all the scenes out. They do like tons and tons of rehearsals, basically like word for word. So they're incredibly prepared. Uh, and so they shot for like 10 weeks and they did it like, you know, no problem. They didn't go over budget or time. It was under, it was under on both. And it's the only 13 million under 14.5. It's the only time he did that in his career. And it felt like he needed to do that to prove a point. Right. Um, they wanted to shoot New York, but all the kind of classic, interesting pool halls were kind of gone. Uh, Toronto is, you know, a cheap city, obviously, but like way too clean is basically how they put it. Um, and so they end up in Chicago. Uh, they use a St. Paul's billiards, Chris's billiards, Chris's billiards, Chicago's finest, the North center bowl, uh, this famous old bar Fitzgerald's, which I feel like is like still kind of a classic place that they, they turned that into a pool room. There's so many, I mean, there's that place. What's it? There's that storefront. That's like Lincoln. What? You know, like that's still there. Um, they, and they, they do go to Atlantic city for one day, uh, to shoot the big tournament with all the, uh, you know, did they shoot any of this tournament stuff on stages or was that? Yes. They staged most of it in Chicago's Navy pier. Like, like, but they did some, you know, kind of like establishing there is a, a strange relationship because this movie is kind of a road movie. Yeah. Because they're shooting it all in Chicago. You're kind of like, are they traveling? Are you traveling from the North side of Chicago to the South side of Chicago? Um, but I always just in my mind, imagine it being like Cleveland, Detroit, you know, Chicago, one more stop Atlantic city, like Philly Atlantic city or something like that. This is the second ballhouse movie ballhouse shot after hours. JJ editorializing here. Our researcher says best, best DP that score says he ever worked with. I think that's probably true. Yeah. But also JJ you're fired. We don't pay you for your opinion. Um, but, you know, there's a lot of stuff here about, you know, the kind of bounce lights he used. I'm not going to go into all of this. Come on. What do they call the, um, the, when they, the cameras that can go right behind a cue ball or a pool ball? I, I, I mean, they, I don't know, but I love all that cameras. Oh yeah. Great name. There you go. Uh, they move the camera a lot. Like ballhouse is like, I think out of every, like seven out of every 10 shots, the camera's moving. Like it's a tracking shot or a moving shot or something. Like Marty loves to move the camera. I love to move the camera. Martin Scorsese likes to move the camera? And you're playing pool, which is just, it is a game where you just think about people just kind of like rotating around the table constantly. Right. Like there is a movement to it. But he's doing like all the Spielberg, uh, like coverage with camera movement. So it'll be like push in Vince, pan Moselle, back to Vince, tilt down to the pool cue, tilt up to Moselle, you know what I mean? And it's like, oh, that's like seven shots, but you just did it with movement, which I think that's part of the under schedule, under budget thing, right? That's always been a famous, uh, Spielberg thing that he's so forged in the failure of 1941, right? That he adopts that style for Raiders of just like, I'm going to figure out on the day, what's the quickest, cleanest, smartest way to do this. Um, and then he holds himself to that standard for the rest of his career. Scorsese obviously does not, but it does feel like he strategically knows. I got to figure out a way to compress this to, to make everyone trust me again. But those morphing kind of master shots are just exquisite. It also, we've talked about, maybe it has been since Ali, but how there's such a disproportionate amount of great boxing movies to other sports. It's such a cinematic sport. Part of it is that it's so, so contained and there's so few things you have to track and it's in such a manageable visual space. I think I'm sure we've talked about extensively on a raging bull episode, but billiards is like an even tinier version of that. You know, it's basically a widescreen frame and you're just like, it's bright colors. It's crazy that actually the hustler works as well as it does in black and white. It's such a strange sports movie. This one, because first of all, I think I take it for granted that, you know, people would necessarily grasp at any given moment where they are in terms of the, the scale, the scales of who's winning and who's losing in a match. Because for one thing, some of the times they're intentionally losing. Sometimes they're winning to set up the fact that they might lose. It's rotation pool. So it's like, sometimes they're kicking ass, but then a guy is like, it's my turn. You know, like I, I get to come in. Boxing is so simple. It's like, you can have never seen boxing before and be like, Like, I get it. They punch each other until one guy falls down. Right. And it's like pool. And the way he shoots pool, it's like there are often times where I'm like, I wonder if this is the fifth rack. Yeah. Is it the ninth rack? Like how, like how, it's so interesting that he can pull it off without ever being like, I have to stop and explain everything that's happening here. It's very reliant on the actress performances in that way because you need to look to them as a guide of them playing what's the status of the game right now. And are they working someone or not? But it also means that basically you just need to depict trick shots. You just need to show us things that look impressive or look unimpressive. In a basic binary way. And then it's helpful that like, you can do these fucking crazy camera moves, but actually you're just moving the camera two feet because you're tracking a very small ball in a very contained space. And a shiny ball moving on felt is really cool. It's really fucking cool. And aren't the rules of nine ball pretty straightforward? They are. I think there's something to that versus it being eight ball. Yeah. Where it's just like, it's very simple. If you get on a run and then you're able to be the one to get the nine ball, and you win. Like, it's just, yeah. I think eight ball is also pretty simple. Eight ball is just solid stripes. I like to play one ball. That feels like for me the cleanest to track. I'll just take one ball. Even leave the cue to the side. And then you just pick it up with your hand and you drop it into the pocket. Game over. But they say in the movie that like nine ball is more action based. Yeah, it's faster. It's like Texas Hold'em. It's like the thing you created to make it feel more like a real sport. Not that it's not a real sport. I. That's. That's. Well, arguable. But yeah. I mean, I've watched. Like I said, I've watched televised snooker. I've never really seen televised pool. Like, I'm not really aware of like. You clearly are not watching ESPN too late enough into the night. Yeah. 2 a.m. In the 90s. Yeah. I feel like they were built on that. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Like, I don't know what. What's the like state of professional pool playing these days? I don't know, actually. Like, there was a. I'm not being funny. Like, there was a run there where there would be tournaments. ESPN had less. And when they were just like, it's bowling and pool after sports centers. Like, that's what we got. But I don't remember the last time I was like, this is the most famous pool player. I was about to say, like, right. Who's the best pool player? Whereas like in. Again, I can tell. Ronnie O'Sullivan, baby. Like, Stephen Hendry. I can name like the great snooker players of my childhood. But I don't know who's good at pool. Like, once in a while, you'll see a bowling clip, which is always fun. Like, you know, some guy being like, that's. That's why I'm the GOAT. And you're like, I guess that guy's the GOAT. And those guys now all wear like Thanos gloves to bowl. Like, wait. Isn't that just like a cybernetic arm? Is that fair? Is that allowed? Obviously, there's like. Britain has darts, which is the funniest televised sport because everyone is morbidly obese. And it's in a giant bar where every. Like, the whole crowd is just hammered. That honestly, though, is like maybe the greatest televised. It's so good. It's watching guys do walk-up songs and it's like, they're all named Ronnie, you know, and like people are losing their minds. 180! There's the guy who yells. And the other. God, the crazy thing about Snooker is it's always like best of 33 games. Like, where you're like, what's the score? And he's like, he's up 11 to 7. And I'm like, and what does he need? They're like, I don't know, 18. It's like, it's such a. I don't understand that. Who's going to see it in person? You go to Sheffield, it's called the Crucible. Yeah. The place where they. And it's crazy. There's a packed crowd watching it. It can't be a real country. No, no. I was going to say also, why does it feel like so many British sports are like durational to prove a point? Like people complain about American baseball. But like, look, you know what? You know what? We have enough listeners. Someone explain this because I don't know. The answer is probably like, oh, what do you mean? Like a Snooker game is 20 minutes. Like it has to be that. I have no idea. Like, I don't know. All I know is I used to watch when I was a kid, the game show, The Big Break, hosted by Jim Davidson, who later became one of Britain's more prominent pro-Brexit celebrities. Back in the day, a hilarious light entertainer that was like a Snooker game show. That's how popular Snooker was in Britain. Anyway. Okay. I looked it up. Carlo Beato of the Philippines won the 2025 World Pool Association nine ball championship. He. He kind of looks like a badass. I kind of like his vibe. So maybe if we ever get a color of money, where Vince is the old man, Carlo couldn't be the Vince. Like, do you need to be in good shape to be good at pool? Uh, I mean, you have to stand a lot. You gotta bend over. You need a good back. Do you need like, you know, some shoulder strength? For sure. Right. You don't have like professional video game players like get worse when they're older and you're like, really? And it's like, yeah, man, like being young, like your brain works better, you know, where it's like, even thumbs fail. Even fucking this, like it is better when you're younger. I know we need to dig into the movie proper. I just need to pick up this thread that CR just dropped because I was thinking this while watching. Like, if Digger doesn't work, does Cruise go, it's time to make the Vince legacy sequel? Watching this, it felt really obvious to me that if he can't have Newman. No, but he's the guy. No, I understand. It would just be like, cool to have Newman have the one scene where he's like, kid, you got it. Who would be the young then, casting? I don't know. It was Miles Teller in Maverick. Yeah. Who is it now? I don't know. I don't know who it is, but I just was like, of all the legacy sequels, he's talking about doing Days of Thunder 2. He's talking about doing Maverick. He really shouldn't do Days of Thunder 2. I agree. That is a huge mistake. Especially post F1. Post F1, there's nothing that needs to be said. There's no room for you here and you're too old. Yep. Is there, yeah, is there another Cruise legacy sequel that makes sense? The other part of that is that Cruise does genuinely love racing and he said that Paul Newman's the one who got him into it on, while filming this movie. Sounds like the kind of bullshit he'd say. Have you read the script for Rain Men yet? Let's get Hoffman back now. But it's just also like a bunch of guys. Yeah. Many, many, yeah. Oh, he's right. He's, he's had a lot of kids. Yeah. They have to go collect all the Rain Men. It's just such an obvious thing where like, the color of money Oscar feels like shorthand for a kind of Gold Watch performance, you know? It becomes the representation for even what, what true grit is of like, what's the obvious kind of elder statesman you are looking back on your legacy and sort of like your movie stardom. We got to give it to this guy. Oscar win. Well, to your point about him obviously taking a supporting role and being like, in some ways, third chair on, on, on this movie compared to Newman and Scorsese, it's not, maybe not unique in his films, but it is, very, it's, it's very clear that like, Vince is almost the villain of the end of this movie in some ways and that, the movie frames it as like, this is the problem. This is what we lost culturally. Yeah. Yes. Look at how unseemly these guys are. And then it's like, for the first two thirds of the movies, he's just like, regarding Newman. Yeah, he gets mad at him a couple of times, but for the most part, he's just like, Eddie, you're the, you're the man. Like, just show me the ways of the force, you know, like, and it's, it's so different from the way he now is so in touch with, I want people to think this about me at this moment in the movie, you know, and then they have to think this is going to happen, but they know I'm going to prevail, you know? Also, the fact that Cruise keeps making baton pass movies where he refuses to pass the baton, you know, obviously there's the whole Renner thing with Mission Impossible, but then it's also what's fascinating about Maverick is that it's like, no, I'm not, I'm not going to die. I'm going to save Miles Teller. The movie ends with me being like, and I'm still fucking in it. Yeah, Maverick, you did it. Right. It's not about me elevating the other guy. Yeah. It does feel like, I don't know, if they announce tomorrow, like, he's got Benny Safdie or Josh, Josh Safdie, I guess is the more exciting pick, right? Working on a Vince movie. Right. Do people get interested? If it's the right director, if it's the right writer, yeah, sure. I mean, this is the one where you're like, well, I could buy him playing pool. Yeah. Like, versus Days of Thunder where it's like, get out of the car, Tom. Like, you know, like, come on. Jesus Christ. You know, like, I'm looking at his 80s. It's funny. It's like, he's good in this movie. Is Cocktail the movie right after this? Cocktail is in 88, so he doesn't make a movie in 87. Yeah, so Cocktail's his next film. Feels like what you're saying of the first time where he's like, no, I'm the best bartender. Immediately comes better in everyone else in the world. His challenge is that no one will give him that credit, basically. Yes. And then a woman does. So Cocktail is, apologies to Bill Simmons, a terrible movie. Yeah. A tremendous amount of fun. It's a good fun. It's a dog shit movie for the 80s. It's a stupid movie. Stupid, stupid movie. I love it. But it's fun. Yeah. But he, you know, he's got that in 88. He balances it with Rain Man where it's like, once again, I'm working with a big director. I'm opposite a bigger actor. Mm-hmm. He, in my opinion, he steals Rain Man out from Hoffman. I feel like that's sort of become the majority opinion of that's, that's the performance. At the time, obviously, that's not the case. Didn't even get nominated. How do people feel about Rain Man now? We did his rewatchable recently. Have you guys done it? We've never done Levinson because he's one of those classic guys of like, the latter half of his career Yeah, you'd be like watching The Bay, which I kind of like, but you'd be like, okay. You'd be watching like, Rock the Cash Bar. Yeah. Or whatever. Like, I mean, I don't know, like the one where Ben Foster's a boxer. Right. That's an HBO one. Maybe we could skip that it's just a it's a really weird movie yeah it's a very very watchable movie for sure but it's just like you're like oh this is about a car salesman who has a little bit of money trouble and then finds out he has a brother right you the stakes of it are oddly low it's the thing about it is is obviously you could never do a movie like that today the Hoffman performances would now be seen as insensitive or whatever it's an incredibly moving movie just like you know just the gut you know the way it works but I think most of the crews also oh it's a good script but it's a good script it is crazy it's not a movie I've seen a lot I've seen like twice no it's crazy when you look at it and you're like everyone wanted to make that script there were so many versions of that movie with different A-list actors and different directors where you're like you know Spielberg almost makes it with Bill Murray in the Hoffman part like people were like tripping over themselves to get the chance to make this film and then it sweeps the Oscars and it's the highest grossing film of its year it sure was and so like I guess that's part of the crew's touch at that point and then the next year he does Born on the Fourth of July which I feel like is the moment where it's like okay you're a certified great actor but then he follows it with like Days of Thunder Far and Away, Few Good Men, The Firm, Interview with the Vampire, Mission Impossible a lot of like very sort of sort of crowd forward movies like he doesn't make another really like I mean I guess Far and Away is trying to be a serious movie yeah and I think all those movies I was just I got excited a few good men like a sequel the last good man a bunch of great people oh you're going more you know what there's a lot of great people in the military these days that's the argument for the movie nothing excites me more than the sound of a um look Nicholson's still alive he appears to be retired Guantanamo you know he's gone through a couple of iterations since the movie Demise you know rebounded like you know I was gonna say Sorkin legacy sequel are the scariest words currently plaguing the modern movie landscape he's up to no good but then I'm realizing that's that's another example of it's not Fincher doing the legacy sequel with an entirely different cast but it is Sorkin making his own legacy he'll beat Heat 2 to the punch on that oh right we were talking about that off mic we were saying how weird it is that Heat 2 is the same guy making a movie with new cast the same characters recasting every role yeah a few good men obviously Rob Reiner recently died that is tragic that probably makes a few good men like a sequel even less likely uh also what would it be about also what are you what what are we doing here also apparently I mean are there still lawyers who prosecute the military no no no no the judge checks the truth social feed and sees what Trump has said and makes his decision like I mean by the time this episode comes out maybe the social reckoning trailer is out there almost definitely that movie is by all accounts like 90% courtroom it sounds like that's the the gist of it he's really good at that stuff he is you know or like he knows how to but that might be your few good men legacy sequel might be a few bad websites Tom Cruise is a judge advocate general in a few good men he's a jag as we all know NCIS is based on jag is a spinoff technically a spinoff of the TV show jag we all know this the legacy sequel is them untangling the media rights of NCIS in a court oh that would be fun and it's just kind of like wait and this counts too like LL Cool J is testifying for some reason right you know just like digging into all of because now there's the NCIS spinoff that's young Mark Harmon that's created by Mark Harmon's son but Mark Harmon's son doesn't play he was recast young Mark Harmon even though he played young Mark Harmon on jag flashback is Chris O'Donnell going to play the Kiefer Sutherland role of like vaguely like MAGA kind of like somewhat coded right where you're like were you what were you doing no that's let's talk about the color money let's talk about the color money it opens like many great films do with Martin Scorsese the director doing voiceover he's not a character in the film yeah just being like let me explain a thing to you the most grotesque and also the most beautiful image of a cigarette where you're like I gotta have that immediately I'm just like like look at that smoke and drink look at that ash falling off of it that's what goes into your lungs this is the worst thing that we've ever done to ourselves as a former smoker this is triggering made me want to drink and smoke I've never smoked a cigarette in my life movies like this I'm just again I'm like I need to move into a pool hall I need to become addicted to brown liquid that makes my head swell was like this needs to be a mandatory road trip thing where like I like some old head and like a 20 something have to like be linked up and it doesn't even have to be like that I need to learn how to be a pool hustler but they have to learn some but I just want to like scum apprenticeship yeah scum apprentice would be a great franchise my interesting Ben has a franchise he's been trying to launch for children called scum friends yes okay look it's a big tent you know we could have G rated stuff but we could also then scum apprentice is like we're going in and we're learning about hustling and cons and scum friends is sort of that's metaphorically what it's about that we should not cast judgment on the outcasts of society but it's literally physical manifestations of like pipes yeah it's like I'm a professional I knew Chris would get this I'm a professional pool player I say to a woman in a bar yeah and she's like oh so you're like a low life then below that is like I'm a professional pool player who often pretends to be bad and so I can score money off of people and maybe I'm going to get knifed outside where it's like wait you found a scummier version of professional pool player to be like were you not satisfied just being in pool halls here's another thing about how appealing the world of this movie is to us my friend Alejandro had a joke he used to tell about where he would refer to liquor as magic water that makes you sick and for how much this movie is about drinking and he's a liquor salesman and it makes it look fucking awesome you're also like putting glasses into people's mouths being like taste that sweet sweet whiskey but it's also this isn't like mad men drinking this is like you see like oh right the magic water makes you sick this guy looks bad he's depressed I've been on the east coast for five days I haven't had a vegetable and it's not even like focused romantic like self-punishing Bukowski drinking it's actually just like no but I can feel my body slowly dying just doing like three days of this and that's what he does every morning like he probably are no mornings because all he does is get up at 4 p.m. you feel this movie in your time and meets with a woman who's inexplicably wearing a kimono and is like try this old McDonald's it's like I mean bondage magical water that makes you sick in your lips it's the the Mulaney joke of like did the bathroom is a sterling Cooper paper fight sound like a haunted house I I I'm not watching being like I wonder what kind of shits Paul Newman takes but like the second you start thinking about a leak right you're like right we're not watching six hours that the guy on the John with a paper like which is must be built they're eating at diners and White Castle exactly and they and they smoke and drink all day yes yeah and he's the hottest any man has ever been but in that way same as slap shot yeah he is he's correctly depicted as a like as a battered piece of shit and yet he's still the hottest thing you've ever seen in the verdict like this error in the verdict you're like oh no like I mean and like he is so fucked up yeah and in the verdict he's also like I'm an ambulance which is also my office one it's like you're like you're a pool player that's cool the verdict you're like wow you you suck there's like the first time he's like cool glasses you know oh no you first watch it you're just like why are there gals out there like Charlotte Rampling would go for guys like this cuz that could open up a lot of windows for me and then you realize it's a scam but he's doing things right yeah she's the hustler in that movie I think on on the the big pick legal draft I call that the greatest burnished wood movie of all time this one has a but this is in on the podium with that it's in there yeah yeah I I would I asked for and did not receive one of the most unique creations in furniture history which is the pool hall tip chair okay you wanted to podcast from oh yes yes yes you sent us a photo yes the screenshot elevated wooden throne yeah that overlooks so that you get like a good angle on the action technically known as a spectator chair I was gonna say it almost looks like a lifeguard chair or like a fucking or it's kind of like a director's chair in a weird yeah and it also looks a little bit like a shoeshine chair but like the way that in that way it's a little bit like the way that in that opening sequence when Vince is playing Julian Carmen's there we're meeting all the main characters he kind of just saddles up there and is like I'm gonna stretch my legs out and put my arm out over like the other side of the chair but I'm looking down on Carmen and like where did you fucking find this stuff I mean I guess it's still this was made at a time when they just still had those places look like they did I think so they've just been frozen in amber also man Newman just fucking knew how to strike a pose and he could do it in a way where it felt natural it wasn't like he was doing some overly expressive John Wayne thing but that guy could just sit and hold the frame and just know like if I just lean like 10% of my weight over to this side the king he is retired he's a liquor salesman he lives in Chicago yeah but he still hangs out at pool halls all the time and younger players he wants to watch yeah he likes to watch he's got a definitely not at all long suffering girlfriend played by Helen Shaver no who becomes like one of TV's greatest directors yeah oh I didn't really yeah wow she has a huge directing career insane like she directed like two episodes of the penguin like she's still to this day one of the most awarded TV directors yeah she's working hard but yes no tough break for her yeah dating him sure yes and he's the player he's staking is John Turturro who is calm cool collected on cocaine and getting boat raced by a guy who likes to play video games when the phone when the phone rang John Turturro's house it's like hey we want you to play a little rat piece of shit he's playing a squiggle is what it's like does my character have any cool traits he's like yeah you have a rock of coke in your nose he looks like fear from inside out he's so good in this he's great he's great he's always good in these movies it's incredible for how early this is in his career it's insane how he's already shorthand casting yeah in a way that is so powerful that the audience is just like boom John Turturro type caught it find Tom Cruise immediately I think the first time I saw him was Miller's Crossing and I was like you fucking piece of shit it's just like this Miller's Crossing quiz show that kind of trifecta of everyone just being like there's something I don't like about it about you I rewatched quiz show I guess after Redford died it does feel like a movie I watch once a year and every time I watch it I just don't understand how he didn't like win the Oscar that year let alone get nominated but because it's the metatextual one where it's just like even if you're the best we just kind of there's something about you I feel like he's settled into his own interesting elder statesman mode where he no longer has that energy like him in the Batman where it's like I can play like an icy mob boss with like you know shaded glasses and people are like yeah of course you are an elder statesman like you fit and he's like hot now too you're also like old Turturro's hot he directed a film that's coming out soon right like the only pickpocket New York or something no Noah Segan directed that oh he directed but Turturro's in it but I've heard Turturro's incredible in that like a friend of mine who saw that movie was like I've heard the movie's good this is like the Turturro career lifetime achievement obviously he has directed many a great film such as The Jesus Rolls are you aware because I brought this up to someone else recently who was astonished by this news The Jesus Rolls which of course was the Jesus Santana sidequel to Big Lebowski that he made without the participation of the Coen brothers with their blessing? the passive blessing if we don't have to show up you can do whatever you want that movie is a remake in addition to being a sidequel to Big Lebowski it is him transposing that character onto a straight remake of Going Places the movie hit maker recently called out the Depardieu Bertrand Billiet yep 100% it is like it's a sex challenge road trip movie it is credited as like based on Going Places okay I want to remind everyone that the character of The Jesus in The Big Lebowski is a sexual predator yeah or convicted child molester yes yeah and John Turturro was like you know it'd be good make a whole movie out of that guy and have him horny on the road is it his redemption? no it's like him and his friend like daring each other to do weird sex stuff just one of the weirdest things ever made people were like why aren't you guys covering that on Patreon I'm like I don't know I want to be able to sleep at night so you're staking Vincent Loria right I know sorry no Vincent is Thomas Tom Cruise what's just taking Julian right Vincent Loria Vincent kicks his ass and what's the video game he's obsessed with? Stalker is that is that a real video game? it apparently influenced the the actual video game Doom uh but I to me it just looks like Spy Hunter or like Pole Position or some 80s you know car racing game and now where would you guys rank this in the the Tron franchise? I think I like the original Tron more than this but this one's better than Ares or Legacy what was the video game in uh Last Starfighter? was it just called Last Starfighter? it's called Starfighter Starfighter yeah that was always pretty sick to me but yeah uh Stalker seems pretty yeah it's weird that he's like my my like motor skills are so elevated because of Stalker and I'm like that doesn't really that's not how it happens but I'm sure it's a Disney thing but I just genuinely love that there's a Tron cabinet in this and obviously the Tron cabinet was like real and was more successful than the movie and stayed in arcades for years but it does make it feel like this is a movie that takes place in the world of Tron that would be so incredible yeah uh so he you know Vincent uh he's he's got charisma he's got a hot girlfriend named Carmen played by Mary Elizabeth Mastrantonio I don't know where she was in her career at this point like oh it's her second movie she's in Scarface yeah yeah okay so Scarface is her first she apparently is an extra in the King of Comedy but I doubt like Marty knew her from that no it must have been just from from Scarface uh she's I'm just gonna say it uh Total Smoke Show she is she's so good in this movie she's she's an actress I like a lot uh generally but I feel like uh she is attractive in this she's activating things in me watching this that I don't usually feel from her performances she fucking rules in the abyss yeah when she comes back when he gives him the balabushka uh but then like Newman's like drive him crazy like go go be be really remote and then she comes back in packing her packing pack of cigarettes I was just like well just take my life like fascinating because it's like I was gonna say it's gonna take my life um it's fascinating because it feels like he's having a love at first sight moment with them with just their dynamic witnessing the whole kind of operation of what's happening the energy around them the potential I think there's also like a not a not too hidden like there's a longing for sexual vitality uh because he's talking omelets and these guys are like oh my god these guys are are are just like she's she's talking about like the loudness of his break you know and he's watching him you know with this stick in his hands and dancing around the table and doing his samurai sword stuff but to your point there's also like a relapse element yeah right like watching Totoro play billiards is is safe for him it's like drinking a non-alcoholic beer right it's sort of just like you know what this was such a structure of my life that I need a version of this for the routine for the habit that isn't actually harmful to me and habit forming and then he witnesses like the uncut shit it's it's right there and he's just like oh fuck I I remember being that guy what if I was her what if I was managing someone like him like every angle of it is so activating to him isn't it also it's like because they're a package he's like you guys hustle so well together right yeah because you guys are so good together which is part of what he misses is the symbiotic nature of it you know and the hustler the original film is so much about that dynamic the sort of tragedy of him fucking up the partner he had who he valued and felt safe with and then getting fucked by the new flashier partner who like destroys his life and that pushed him away from all of it right and it's like yeah part of him you know having this long-term stake in Totoro is like how extreme is that ever going to get well I say the the economics of it are also kind of interesting because inflation aside like they're they're passing 20s back and forth right like I don't know yeah he's like if when they talk about going on the road he's like we could make five grand you know which is a lot of money in 1986 but it's I don't know if it's down payment money yeah that's not my one last score kind of money so it's kind of like this is it's a grind like and it's just like you're trying to find fun you know and it's just like you're trying to find fun in the grind but I don't also he seemingly has money he's like seemingly well enough off sure he's hiring around wads yeah my man well she's like but like does he have like a bank account he's got a shoebox I think he's one one yeah exactly so what happens I mean they pretty quickly go to he's like I gotta take her out to dinner he goes yeah right there's the whole dinner scene and he does that whole like kind of scam basically yeah like I'm gonna take this girl she's gonna reject him in 30 seconds I walk out of here let's call it must like the hustler like this opening scene the whole like Helen Shaver trying to sell the liquor the uh to Turo noticing them starting to talk to Master Antonio like buttonholing her all of that is basically a sustained like 20 minute chunk of the movie much like the hustler where you're just really staying in this space and the dynamics of all of it there's also like that's where you start to get the rhythm of the movie and the intonations of the script. And I do love all of the of the lore about them working Price to the bone and sending him back and back and back to just tighten it and tighten it. And Price has talked about I would write this stuff and I would be like, this sounds incredible in my head and then they would say it's too written, it's too written. And so there is this It feels like a classic novelist screenplay problem. Yeah, but a lot of that opening sequence that you're talking about so much of it is just them giving each other looks. So like when when Vincent is like let's just play play, let's just play for play because I think the money is getting in your head. And Newman just like looks up and he's like, what the fuck did he just say? But he doesn't say like no one ever talks like that in the pool hall. You know, it's just a look but it tells you everything. And when Vincent is asking that, Carmen is like, Vincent because she's like, we do this as a job like this is how we make money. You can't be throwing away games against Julian here because he's $20 rack. It's just like such a perfect setup for that world. You can just know without knowing what you're dealing with. It's also the classic movie star thing, you know, insecure actors in sort of leading positions. You always hear want more dialogue, more jokes, more awesome moments. And the guys and gals who are just completely minted are like, take all this out. I can sell that in a look. I don't need this paragraph to explain it. Give me the three line, the three word version of that line, or let me truly just do it in a glance and like Newman knows that. Yeah, I wonder what the longest stretch of uninterrupted speaking from Felson is in this movie. It can't be. Is there a monologue in this movie? Really? I mean, there's him in the car with Cruz, but that's pretty sure I would say it's after Forrest Whitaker. That's when it is right where he's been brought low, right? But yeah, I love that this movie doesn't translate at all to that point that you feel like the worst version of this movie even though it would have a kind of trashy joy to it. Is one where Newman's like, kid, I'm going to teach you the ropes and then he breaks down every single thing, even just the way he starts saying at this dinner scene, which to your point is very sexually charged. The whole thing feels like, is he sexually coveting Cruz? Is he trying to cut Cruz? Is he trying to be the third? He's also sort of like trying to show his sexual prowess through the scam of him pretending he's picking up the woman, like all that stuff. But that's Lorraine Bracco's sister. Hey now. With Bracco? Yeah. Huh. Who knew? And she's Vito's wife in The Sopranos? I don't think I knew that. I am realizing we're finally making good on our promise that we have to cover Goodfellas on this podcast because this podcast has been so damaging to Lorraine Bracco, where we have only covered her worst performances ever. Wait, apart from Medicine Man, what's the other one? Pinocchio? Forgot about that. Chris, how recently have you watched Robert Zemeckis' Pinocchio? I actually have never seen it. Wait, what? You checked that one out? You mean you haven't seen it yet this calendar year? No, but I was listening to Fearless. And I just wanted to say, Zemeckis-wise, I will sometimes watch Flight on a flight. That's absolutely. I'm like you. Because the action is the gist. I'm like you. Do you, like, navigate to it on the in-screen entertainment? I have it saved on my phone. I have it downloaded and I'll just be like. They're like, we don't have that movie, you maniac. And I'm like, fine, let's crack the iPad open. You hold on to an iPod video just to have Flight in your pocket at all times. But I do, I roll it, so I watch it upside down. Yeah, right, when he's rolling it. Um, no, she plays a seagull in the Zemeckis Pinocchio. She does. That's an added character that is horrendous. Yeah. It sounds like she is dying. She's a great actor. But it's her being like, Pinocchio! The fuck is going on? Pinocchio! I mean. That was all the money we had, Pinocchio! And we've, like, maybe there's a third one I'm forgetting, but she is so. I think that's probably it. She is so shrill and unpleasant in that and in Medicine Man. Yeah. Both of which are just horrible miscastings in ill-begotten films. Yeah. Where we've had to be so rude to her and we've said, like, I think we must do Marty at some point just to put some respect on Lorraine Bracco's name. I'm glad we'll get to do it. I don't know how many other movies we'll even ever, like, hit with her. She doesn't have that. If we do Gus Van Sant, we'll get even Cowgirls Get the Blues? Yeah. That's. That might be it. Like. I mean, we're not. Maybe we do Richard Donner? Radio Flyer? Oh, sure. Yeah. I don't know. She didn't make a ton of. Oh, you know what? We'll do Penny Marshall. Riding Cars with Boys. We will. A penny for our pot. But isn't that one where she's like, I can't get pregnant! Like, I haven't seen that movie since it came out. Don't ride in cars with boys! Ride on bicycles alone! They were gonna find it! But it's like, isn't it that Goodfellas broke her a little bit of, like, you can scream your head off in that movie and it makes sense? Just put a revolver in your underwear. It's funny because she rarely ever raises her voice in The Sopranos, like, at all. No, she's also quiet for long stretches of Goodfellas. He uses that as a super power. And she has good reason to scream in Goodfellas. It's stressful. Yes. And also, everyone's fucking screaming. Except for De Niro. At the dinner scene, and I just like. Yeah. Yeah. Like, even the sexual energy of him propositioning her for dinner, and being like, what do you mean you want to take us out? Like, she clearly at first views it as, this old man is hitting on me, and I don't know if I'm interested or not. But then doesn't understand what he wants out of the two of them together. And then he goes on to explain it where he's like, he's a thoroughbred. Like, you make him run, you make him feel good, I teach him how to play. Because I think to her, she's like, if it's about the pool, then why is he even bothering with me? Right. And if it's about me, then why is he even bothering? Because he has to construct this entire, like, she's getting bored of you working at Toys R Us, or Child World. Child World, of course. I'm thinking of reviving Child World, by the way. What do you guys think? That's where the third Jesus Santana movie happens. Oh, no. It's just like, you see something like this, and you're like, what child wants to go? That was like private equity before there was private equity. Like, can we just get a kid world or a child world even? Could you imagine the fucking field day Fox News would have with Child World today? Yes. The conspiracies would just write themselves. Just waters, just camped outside. Yeah. Just the only other thing on the dinner is shout out to whoever was the like, the food art person in this, because it's like, the chocolate mousse, the cup of coffee, the after, the digestif. It's all, like, arrayed there at the perfect level of, like, I had three bites of that. I had a sip of this. I had a sip of that. Like, it's the we've had a big, long steakhouse dinner dessert. And, like, Paul Newman 50 pictures kid shit. Like, he knows exactly how to eat on camera, what to eat, when to take the bites for emphasis, to the point of the movie not feeling the need to hold your hand or translate things. The way he talks about, like, you're quite a character kid. And Cruise is like, yeah, right? And he's like, no. I mean, in a negative way. You're a flake, but it's hard to be a flake, and this and that. And you're just like, great. I know enough. I don't need you to spell this out to me. I understand what you're saying. I understand there's more to it if I dug deeper to this lingo. But let's just, we're off to the races. This guy knows everything. And they just want to be next to him. And we're not going to. Vincent is like, you know, raw putty. Like, he's going to get molded. But we're not going to watch him do, like, training montages with them. There's one montage in the film. It's well-deployed. It's much later. Like, yes, there is no point. And he's like, you know, you got to pop the balls one to nine, as we all remember or whatever. Okay, so they go to Atlantic City. Right? The next chunk's in Atlantic City. Right? Well, it's leading up to Atlantic City. Yeah, they do a whole road trip around the Midwest. They're on the road. They're ending up in Atlantic City. Right. But that's. It's like, hey, why don't we go on the road a couple weeks? We're going to make a couple grand, and then we're going to go to Atlantic City, and all the games outside of the tournament are where you make all your money. Right. We'll get in my caddy, and I get. How much does he get? Like, 60% of their winnings or something? It's a little fucked up. But he's paying for the lodging and food. Yeah. And by the way, in The Hustler, it's 75? That's George C. Scott's deal with him. Right. I do think it's important that he's offering a better deal than the one he was given. Yeah. They should have gotten George C. Scott back. They should have. He's still alive at this point. Right? Yeah. Yeah, because his last. Oh, no, I'm sorry. He was federally barred from entering any pool halls. He's the drunkest man in the world. That's right. His last film was Angus, I think, which is, like, 96? Right. Yeah. Haven't seen. U.S. Marshals pull him out of any bar he goes into. Right. Well, no, it's just more like they're like, George C. Scott went in a bar. Filming has been delayed by eight days. Like, it's just. I mean, that was, like, the vibe back then. Did George C. Scott win Best Actor once or twice? Just once. Okay. Just for Patton. Yeah. He was nominated for The Hustler. Yes. I think it's part of why Gleason doesn't win is there's two Hustlers, supporting actor nominees. Yes. We were. Because we were talking about this the other day. I was calling out how crazy it is that Gleason also never won an Emmy. And your point was, well, The Honeymooners only ran for one season. Right. I mean, like, he was nominated twice before for. I did research on this. Yeah. The Jackie Gleason show, which, of course, had, like, the Ralph Cramden sketches in it. And he had. The originator. Yeah. Producing nominations, writing nominations, acting nominations. The Honeymooners ran for one year. And also, there was. I always thought Honeymooners was, like, 500 episodes. That's what everyone thinks. Yeah. Like, it was, like, one of those, like, I Love Lucy type shows. Yes. But yeah, 30 episodes for one year or whatever. The other thing is he was nominated, I think, in 1952 for Best Comedian, which was just a category. It wasn't Comedy Special. At the Oscars? No, for the Emmys. It was like Best Host and Best Comedian. And I think he lost to Durante, maybe? I wouldn't put it past the Oscars. What about Best Comedian? They said that. Yeah. I mean, that's kind of what the Globes tried to do. Right, you know, like it didn't work out. The thing I was going to say is, just to tell Ben, because I think you would appreciate this, George C. Scott, most ornery man in the world, from The Hustler, that's his first nomination? His first nomination is for Anatomy of a Murder. Oh, good call. His second is for The Hustler, refuses the nomination. This is the thing. There's a big note on the Oscars for that year, which is George C. Scott refused the nomination. He refused to accept it as valid. George C. Scott was very anti-awards show. He was just like, acting shouldn't be a competition. This is ridiculous. Never showed up. George C. Scott showed up. Anytime they nominated him, he was like, fuck off. So he just publicly was like, fuck that. Yeah, he wasn't like, I'm not going to show up. He was like, I call bullshit on your whole thing. So he would reject the nomination and they would then give it to like the next alternate? No, they just were like, well, you're nominated. He's like, well, I refuse. They're like, too bad. Go on a Wikipedia and IMDb. It always has like parenthetical, George C. Scott didn't show up, refused the nomination. And then he wins for Patton in 70 and obviously does not show up. And then he was nominated once more for the hospital. I couldn't remember if he also won for the hospital, but yeah. No, he didn't. They gave it to him the one time for Patton where they're like, look, you're one of the greatest actors ever and you just were in this movie that's winning best picture and you're so good in it. And he was like, I refuse. Fuck you. We're giving it to you anyway, Georgie. How funny would it be if he showed up for the hospital Oscars and was sitting there like really nervous with his. Jesus, he would beat him. He's like, fuck. I really think I nailed it this time. He's fucking good at this. I regret not going and giving a speech. So, all right, color money. Come on, guys. What's going on? The first pool hall he tries to take them to is now just like a furniture store. Right, that's the Lincoln place. There's something to that of just showing that he's like an old man now. Yeah, you're an artifact. Yeah. Now, when you watch it. Lincoln Tap Room, that's what it's called. Right. And then when you watch it, you're kind of like, at what point do these people start playing one another? Right? Like, at what point is Mary Elizabeth Master and so is Carmen starting to think about, well, how will we. How are the wheels turning? Why are we giving him this percentage? And what point is he like, I'm using Vincent as a mechanism to like get myself back into this? What's the long play here? Exactly. But like, I don't think that the pool hall that never opened, but that leads to, I believe the next place is the. He's playing the old man with the trach. The old man with the trach. It's like kind of a shitty, almost like VFW hall. And that's the fight where he's just like, family, goddammit, get your hands off me. Yeah, he plays this, he pretends to be his dad. He pretends to be his dad. Yeah. Who's disappointed in him. Yeah. When does he lecture Master Antonio? I feel like that's pretty early on when she's kind of like sitting around braless. That is, they've arrived already at Bill Cobb's House of the Holy. It's after Cruz has gotten the shit kicked out of him. Yeah. And he goes in and they, this is the most kind of like, I think, legible, like, pool hall where they walk in and they're like, that's the best guy, but that's the richest guy. Yeah. And if you beat the best guy, the richest guy won't want to play you. But if you fumble around for a while, the richest guy might get curious. And then we're working with thousands of dollars. But Moselle, you're just playing this guy for 20 bucks a throw. And it's, Cobb's the fucking best. Cobb's so good in this. I know. He also just basically doing a paragraph of dialogue with a look in this. Yes. I mean, that man could really sell a hundred years of life with a, just like, a glance. He's the, he's the owner of the pool. He's the owner. It's the saddiest fucking hand in the world. And he's, he's also the, the magical janitor in Hudsucker Proxy, but he's in 8,000 things. But this is, the scene you're referring to is when Newman goes into the motel room and she's in her underwear and a flannel shirt tied up around her stomach. And he goes, keep the shirt. Nice touch. Yeah. And then he says, you know, where's the balabushka? Yes. And she's like, well, he went out. It's like, and you let him? And he has to go after him. Yeah. The other, the other thing with the, the scene, Ben, you know, a lot of The Hustler, which I assume you haven't seen the original. You'd probably like, you would love it. No, I want it. I just, I ran, I didn't get time. No, no, I know. I'm just saying like, you'd probably dig a lot of it. It's five. The movie is basically equally a very tragic love story. It's got a very, very, very dark romantic. Piper, Piper Laurie as sort of a very broken woman. They're two kind of broken people who find each other in their dysfunction. And the way he's talking to Mary Elizabeth, Master Antonio in this scene where he's clearly attracted to her, but he's also saying like, and would you dress like this? If any man walked in here and what if it was a guy like this? It's all kind of like fascinating, not overstated echoes of him still struggling to process. The tragedy of the original film. Yes. There, there was a whole situation in that movie of men and sexual violence. And you kind of, this is the first time where Cobb mentions that you get at least just a little bit of sense of the legacy of this guy. And they, they, I think that's the first time where they refer to him by his nickname. Yeah. And there's, this is also the first time he plays pool in the movie is when he's, he's, he's playing with Vincent just to, just to hit the ball, hit some balls and to like draw a little bit of attention. That's when you get the crash zoom. And yeah. Fuck, I'm alive. The, uh, which I guess kind of brings us to werewolves. And I wanted to ask you guys about this. I think I've, I, I, this is an idea that like I, I, I, I'm obsessed with is the, the flight of the Valkyries problem in a movie. When it peaks too early. When you peak it, you're like minute 55. Yep. And when, if, if anything was better than this, it would be like the greatest movie of all time. Yeah. I will say this, this film has an incredible ending. Yeah. Like literally like the last two minutes of this film, you're like, hell yeah. But yes, this is tough to talk this moment. It's also interesting. Cause I fly the Valkyries problems. The exact right way to put it. Yes. There are movies where it's like, I love apocalypse. Now I, of course, I always stop watching about 65. But it's also, it's one of these things where it's not like all movies, usually great films peak at the ending. You go through history and you're like, what's the best scene. Sometimes it's the opening. Sometimes it's the middle. Sometimes it's here or whatever. It is a distinct thing of a movie hitting a level of transcendence where you're just like, this is as good as shit gets. I wouldn't rather be anywhere else in the world right now. I could watch this forever. And you feel them sort of like not fully, successfully dismount off of that. The movie doesn't comfortably transition you from that high into something that feels equally satisfying. Or even if the movie still remains excellent, you're just like, I am thinking about how much better I felt 20 minutes ago though. He has, um, I'm sure you guys will talk about all of them throughout this series, a series of moments in his movies that remain transcendent despite the level of analysis. So you can watch the, the Copacabana Warner or you can watch werewolves of London or you can watch like all these different scenes and you can just be like, I can watch this and think about every single thing that has to happen for this shot to work. Or I can just listen to the music and watch the guys. I can just vibe. Yeah. And it, it never, the magic never goes away. Even once you know what the trick is. Goodfellas is an interesting comparison point because it has like four of these. And is the problem that if you have multiple scenes at that level of transcendence, it evens out. You have multiple, multiple tent poles that are elevating us and bringing us down versus if there's just one kind of peak moment at the middle that is so perfect. But I feel like I can watch the fucking shine box scene 8,000 times, never get tired of it. But when that scene ends and the movie continues, if I'm watching Goodfellas in full, I'm not disappointed. I'm not like, can we rewind back to shine? I was rewinding this. I was literally just kind of, kind of like going like, let me go back to the beginning of this one more time. Just when he hits though, the line, his hair is perfect. And you realize that Tom Cruise is like, it's not just being played over the scene. He's in it. Like the song is being played in the room. There's also early Robbie Robertson, like dub master stuff going on here where Robbie stuff. And so the score is, it goes from, first of all, like they're playing. Well, first of, first of all, in the script, it's James Brown. So that's, it's supposed to be James Brown. So where was it? London is the perfect choice. I know, but that's like, it's the difference between Scorsese and Richard Price. Richard Price is like, Hey, he's listening to fucking James Brown. And then Mark Scorsese, like what have we did? But the James Brown song, what it, uh, like the big payback. No, it's faster. It was, I can't remember what it is. I have the script on the laptop. I'll look for it. But the, uh, it's like diegetic. So it's like playing through a PA system at the pool hall and they're playing Clapton. And then when they cut to werewolves, it's Paul, Paul Newman driving down to the pool hall them. And in the opposite lanes or whatever, whatever sound design choice they made, the car horns are in time to the beat of the song. And you're like, who thinks of this? That's the shit that gives me goosebumps. Like with the fucking song. Yes. I'm a huge Warren Zevon guy. I don't know if I've ever talked about this on the show before. I don't think so. Are you guys pro-Warren Zevon? Casually. I think it's that one album of his that I really love. The second album? The self-titled? Yes. Yeah. That is the greatest rock album of the 70s. He's just such an unusual guy. There is nobody like him. This career is so weird. Excitable Boy is the album you're talking about, right? Excitable Boy is his third album, which has Werewolves of London on it, which is a good album. His second album, Warren Zevon, is the greatest rock album of the 70s. It is the best. The one that begins with Frank and Jesse James ends with Desperados on the Eves. It's basically like hanging out all night in an LA bar. The last song, it's 4 in the morning, and you're like, we should all kill ourselves. It'll be so great. What's his first album then? His first album is called Wanted, Dead or Alive. And it's like, you know, it's got some stuff, but like Warren Zevon, he never topped it. Like the second album. Like he made music for another 50 years. And I feel like he kind of became the Werewolves of London guy. He had that though last album when he. The Wind, which is really good. And his letterman kind of kept him. Enjoy every sandwich stuff and all that. That was all very profound. I'm not like shitting on it. Have you guys ever heard or seen Adam Sandler doing Werewolves of London? No. You know what? I can imagine it. Him going, ah, woo! But he like crushes it. There's that thing with Sandler where he's an incredible singer, but it feels like he's almost embarrassed by how beautiful a voice he has. So even when, especially when he does his comedy music, he kind of like does a comedy voice on top of it. And other things where he's sung. But then, like the scenes in Wedding Singer where people are like, this is dubbed, right? He's not this good of a crooner. And all of it's real. When Zeevon died, they did a tribute album called Enjoy Every Sandwich, which was his quote from his final letterman interview. And Sandler did Werewolves of London as a recording, but also performed it live on letterman. And it's incredible. Wow. And you're sort of like, oh, what? He's having fun. I can imagine. Doing like Werewolves of London, but he just sings the shit out of it. It's awesome. I highly recommend it. The song is awesome. I also love that Cocktail is the beginning of, and I guess it starts in Top Gun, but it's only after the success of Top Gun that Cruise identifies this. In Top Gun, it feels more reflective of the Bruckheimer Simpson worldview. And then Cruise takes it with him until the couch jump, roughly. Early 2000s, let's say, late 90s. Tom Cruise movies are primarily about a guy who is the fucking best at something. Either he's always been the best, or he's immediately becoming the best. He becomes the best so quickly. And people doubt him. They're like, hey, hotshot, too fast, too much, you're feeling yourself. Like, take it down a peg. And he's like, fuck you. I'm the only one who can save us. I'm better than you think I am, and I'm gonna prove you wrong. There's like a distinct lack of learning in a kind of like peak Tom Cruise. movie star movie. And part of what's so electrifying of the Werewolves of London scene is you're like, this guy is going to crash. You're watching a guy who's just like feeling himself way too hard. When he starts doing the fucking karate moves, you know, him singing along as you said that he's like making the lyrics about himself in a way. And you're watching Newman watch him and be like, this guy doesn't understand how much suffering he has ahead of him in his life. He also, but like, he's so bad at being a it's the flake thing. It's like he's so bad at throwing or at like sandbagging so that they can entice this guy because he's beating Moselle one handed. He's like, I'm just fucking dancing around the table and Moselle sits down like he's like, I know I'm not going to hit again, you know, like and like that's where Eddie chews him out of like you're losing us money, right? Like you're yeah, if you if you're this good, no one wants to play you or no one wants to you're losing you're you're making money on this game. You're losing money on the next five games. Everyone else who's standing around watching you is never going to fucking off the way it's the it's the incredible like paternal figure thing where he'll he yells at him and then he's like Vincent get in the car. You're like a high school girl who got felt up at a drive-in, you know, like Ben the hustler is like very existential and the main thing in the movie is this guy is really good. Even the elder statesmen are kind of acknowledging like fuck and like a year he might be the best in the world. But there's this early scene where George C. Scott calls him a loser after he's like one and it's just sort of like fundamentally you're a loser like you have the mentality of a loser and what he's calling out is a certain vulnerability of this guy so badly needing to be seen as the best and that desperation even though he doesn't do this kind of peacocking even though he is good at like throwing people off. There's he wants it a little too badly. That's what undoes him when the Forrest Whitaker character in Color of Money be some is he's like basically like I've uncovered the old wound of where you're just like you're you're a dupe without fully spoiling it where the hustler ends is he experiences this like tremendous tragedy and at the end he shows up and he's like I'm a winner. You're a loser basically because I've lost everything and I'm hollowed out now inside like I don't feel the stakes of losing. I have nothing left to lose which makes me invincible and you see the Jackie Gleason character who is the best in the world look at him and be like fuck this guy's dangerous now you know he doesn't even try to step up to him and so there is this whole feeling of Newman lashing out at him being like this guy doesn't understand that like eventually something in his life will humble him that he is going to be hollowed out and he is peacocking so much more than I did at my peak that like this fall is going to be fucking brutal and it's it's yes the Forrest Whitaker thing is it hits him so hard because he Newman thinks he is decades past being able to care that much right it's not just that he got hustled it's how it hurts well he gets hustled at the thing that he says he's the expert right exactly he gets he says like pool excellence it's not about excellent pool it's about being a student of human moves and he just misses that Forrest Whitaker's playing him you know he thinks he's just he's got another guy that he's going to take 40 bucks off of or 80 bucks off of can't see the forest from the trees I mean it's kind of vital literally literally can't see the forest through the tree well that is so true but like it is kind of vital in a way to me because I am like how does this economy work how can there be this many people who you can hustle enough to continue eating food and it's like you know what fucking sometimes this shit happens even to supposedly like wise guy Forrest Whitaker also has an entirely different style yeah totally you get that he he would be duped by him because he's not like I used to be like I was working at a medical school like participating in lab experiments like he seems like a complete right yeah he's got a totally different backstory he's got a totally different demeanor and part of it is that Forrest Whitaker is such a unique performer you're like I mean is there anyone like Forrest Whitaker before when he asked him like hey can I ask you something do you think I should lose some weight it's like it's like you're asking Paul Newman that but yes yes but it's right and like even in that moment you're like is this still some part of like some fucking mind game or is this just him spiting him to be like on top of it I'm still gonna pretend like I'm just sort of an idiot savant or is it like a genuine moment of vulnerability being like hey now that I've beaten you and I maybe have your respect can you tell me do you think losing weight would help my hustle like there's there's a read on it like that but he's yeah kind of like it's the jersey swap moment afterwards where he's like you know yeah like can I hey like I know you're an expert or you're an old hand Forrest Whitaker is just kind of like like a universal monster where you're like this guy who is so intimidating and scary and sad simultaneously just always feels so tragic and so vulnerable and is a guy who feels like he's being explosive and loud even when he's like literally whispering is this platoon year 86 is platoon so he does he's so those are his two movies yeah like before this is only credits are uh fast time something called tag the assassination and the Nick Castle movie which I think he has a tiny part and uh vision quest the uh Matthew Modine movie he's got a tiny we talked about this in the fast times episode though he gets a couple parts early on and he's like I don't know enough about acting and basically pulls himself out of TV and auditioning and is like I need to study more seriously and 86 is his reemergence year of like I think I I can be at the table he gets to work with Martin Scorsese and Oliver Stone it's not bad I can hold my own against Paul Newman yeah this is this is the moment that like really kind of defines the rest of his career right the fact that he's able to fucking nail this scene yeah because the next year he's got good morning Vietnam which is like a pretty big role like that's pretty much yeah and then the year after that is bird which is just I mean it's one of my favorite Clint Eastwood movies it's probably my favorite Forrest Whitaker performance like and it's like did that make him a star no because like Forrest Whitaker or like you say, is so specific. But it made him an enduring Hollywood figure. He's like a Giamatti. Where you're like, this guy has a number of excellent vehicles under his belt. And Forrest Whitaker obviously won a leading acting Oscar, even though that's kind of a supporting performance. It kind of, yeah. But, you know, whatever. But you're like, he's primarily a character actor who a couple times The Right Project has met him exactly where he's at. And it's the kind of movie that could only be led by him. He's also like Ghost Dog. Right, that's what I'm saying. And no one could have been fucking Ghost Dog. But I'm like, Ghost Dog, Bird, Last King of Scotland, The Butler. Right. You're like, he has like a collection of movie star movies. And then, but then it's also like, is there a hostage situation in a movie? Guess what? Tired cop is picking up the phone right now. Or he's the guy who's being held hostage. Or he's that. He could be either. Please, please. He's a very effective psychic cop in Species. Oh, God. The fucking weirdest movie ever made. Where he walks into rooms, he's like, someone was hurt here. And there's like 14 gallons of blood on the floor. We should do Species on Patreon. Only so that we can hear Ben's sort of, if I were in this movie, it'd end with me owning an island. I would not make any mistakes. I'd have a bunch of good sex and still be alive. She would recognize that I was cool. I'd not tear my spine out. One and two. Uh-huh. I haven't seen three, but which I think was straight to TV or whatever. But some have told me is not bad. It's still Henchmen. Henstridge? I think Henstridge might just be doing a little cameo. And it was directed by Lav Diaz, right? Who did Species 3? Three was directed, of course. That was written by Schrader. By Brad Turner, a TV guy. Okay. Henstridge reprises the role briefly in the opening scene. It was a Sci-Fi Channel original. Yes, but there's an uncut. That then went to DVD unrated. Correct. There's like a sexier version of it that I have been told. I know this because. You've heard that the sexy version is the good one. Is that what you're saying? No, I know that, you know, I did both Species 1 and 2 on the authorized novelizations podcast. I picked Species 1 kind of because I was like, that's funny. There's an official novelization of that. And then, of course, it was hit with the news by Over B of. And don't you worry. There was a novelization of Species 2 as well. Both written by a woman. Yeah. Hey. And so I watched one and two. There's a fourth one as well. There is. Species the Awakening. Standalone sequel, not a direct follow up. Yeah. I'm sure fans are furious. I don't know. I do want to call out that Species 4 was briefly titled Species colon Quattro. Was it really? Yeah, which I'm realizing. I don't know if any franchise has done that. Not yet. Right? No. The never made old school sequel was supposed to be called Old School Dose. Sure. Yeah. I just think the untapped potential here. Let's do it. Yeah. I think that saying Natasha Hinstridge should be like part of like a president's cognitive test. I noticed that you've only said Mary Elizabeth Mastrantonio once. Mem. In entirety. And it is one of the great. I trip over the last names. Mary Elizabeth Mastrantonio. What was the tennis player in the 90s? Uh. Fuck. Mia Mastrantonio? No. No. Who are you talking about? Sanchez Vicario. Oh, yeah. Alexis Sanchez Vicario. Yeah. I just always was. I loved a name where it's like. No, Alexis Sanchez is a soccer player. This is. No, it's. Right. Aranta. Or. I didn't know. I don't know how you say her first name. But, you know, I loved a meal of a name. Mary Elizabeth Mastrantonio feels like a roller coaster. It's fun to say. You feel satisfied when you come into the land. Do you think her and Stuart Mastrantonio? We're just in a death stare about who got the three names. Now, Mary Stuart Mastrantonio is the daughter of Peter Mastrantonio, who is like a big actor. Right. Like she was. She was, you know, Hollywood royalty. Whereas Mary Elizabeth Mastrantonio's father worked, operated a bronze foundry in Oak Park, Illinois. So she was. How did she get Scarface? I don't know, man. She was on Broadway and various musicals, including as an under. Study in the 1980 run of West Side Story. That's like three years before Scarface. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, she rocks. She's got an interesting career in that. She's made very few movies. She was in the original production of Amadeus. That sounds good. I'll check it out. That must have led to. Yeah, it feels like she gets cast in Scarface off of that. Yeah, she's a very few movies. I wonder if there's like Pacino scenes are on Broadway or something like that. It has to be. Yeah. Yeah. Because she. Obviously, that's a humongous show. And she's in the original. She's in the original cast, but. She's done a fair amount of theater, but like, it's just crazy that like, it's like her movie credits are Scarface, Color of Money, Slamdance, January Man, The Abyss. That's her whole 80s. She has made only three films this century, and one of them is a short film. Yeah. She was in a film in 2015 called A Muck. She basically hasn't made a movie since The Perfect Storm. She also, her husband directed The January Man. Is that right? Yes. She's married to Patrick O'Connor, who directed most of what she has made since the 90s. Right. Who made the terrible film Stars and Bars, which I talked about on a Big Picture episode once. Yes. One of the least relevant Daniel Day-Lewis movies ever made. Is it fair to say the least relevant? I think so. Probably. Is anything really competing with that? I don't think so. But yeah, no, it's like Robin Hood, Prince of Thieves is kind of her final major movie star move. Yeah. Which. She's good in that, I guess. She's good in that. I like that movie so much. You like that movie so much? I really do. I think that movie. I haven't seen that movie since I was like a kid. I think that movie's really fucking fun. I rewatched it when we were doing Costner. Well, Rickman's so good. And then folded. That movie is also long. I was like, we should fold this. But there are also like two different versions now. Right, right, right. Oh, right. We should just like, Costner goes, directed this. Let's just do it on like the Costner series. We were debating whether or not to do it. And the Costner series was short. But then we did a Waterworld episode. So I was like, I should rewatch Prince of Thieves. A movie I similarly had like watched in pieces on cable and maybe never sat down and watched from beginning to end. And I just, maybe it was the contrast between the two. There's a lot I like in Waterworld, but it's obviously so long and bloated. And Robin Hood Prince of Thieves, I just thought was like so much fun from beginning to end. Got that Kino 4K pre-ordered. Oh, do you? I, you know, I think I have. Oh, fuck Kino, it's A-roll. What the fuck? What the fuck am I talking about? It's so embarrassing. This is embarrassing for you. Tracy's going to fucking eat me for lunch. But like Tracy, I just feel like, like pallets arrive at his house every day and they just get added to the pile, right? I have questions. I'm like, is he on the subscription list? Is he on press lists? Is he just pre-ordering everything a la carte, one by one? I don't know. The methodology for, he's very open about his AV man. He was very open on the big picture physical media episode about who he watches movies with. Yep. But he was a little bit circumspect about like, where does it all come from? Where does it all come from? Which, you know, it's the real question of life. I mean, it's the essential question we all grapple with. When he read off the AV man's text, A, I could not believe how. Probably the peak of podcasting. Truly. Yeah. Truly. Truly. Truly. Beyond that, maybe the peak of human language. I was like, I could not believe how well written this text was. I think you called out, you were like, is this how he typed it out? Because it felt like the part in Annie Hall where he brings McLuhan out from behind the posters. Like, in fact, I have my AV man right here. I was like, did you know that we were going to ask you this and had him pre-write it? It was insane how good it was and how thorough it was. And just, if I were reading that out in text, I think it would give me goosebumps. Have Tracy be the one to give it a dramatic. He's a good reader. I mean, he. He can lend a lot of gravitas to something. The highest grade in British silicone. The British acoustics. To the excellence. And German engineering. From a rents. I mean, doesn't that kind of lock you into where you live? Yeah. You're like, fuck, I can't leave now. I don't think he's planning to. No. No, I guess he's. I don't think we get tempted about it. You're right, he's building a castle. He's got the nanny, he's got the movie theater. My question is, like, how do I become the next nanny? Yeah, exactly. Like, how do I move in there? Do we need a court jester? Like, what roles are still open in that household? I think. Yeah, I don't know. Does Tracy eat? I could cook. I could. Tracy very convincingly could have appeared in this film. Yeah. Especially as the guy who loses to Eddie and then is like, can I buy you a drink? And Eddie's like, let me buy you a drink. I don't know who that guy is. He's probably, like, an actual pool hall Denzian that they found. I mean, like, Kevin McCready is in this film who is a real-life hustler. He's Brady Seasons or is he somebody else? He is Brady Seasons. He is a. A real hustler who plays under the name Earthquake who has an unusual, like, side form which I think is part of his hustle. He's very poetic when he's moving around the table. Right. Like, he doesn't look like a sort of, like, traditional pool pro or whatever. It's worth mentioning, I guess, Iggy Pop also. I was going to say, yeah, we got a call. Fantastic Iggy Pop. Accredited as skinny player on road. Yep. Who else? I just wish there had been a couple of more. like Two Brothers and a Stranger-style cons. in halls because I also wanted to interrogate the fact that Newman's like, have you ever done two brothers and a stranger? And it's like, it involves me grabbing your girlfriend's ass. And I was like, where's the two brothers? Like, if we were doing two brothers, would we also be like grab-assing or what? I don't need them to explain them to me, but I do want to see multiple types of hustles. Yeah, yeah. I love any kind of like con stuff, you know. I also want to shout out Paul Herman, who's Beansy in The Sopranos. He's another of the pool guys. Oh, he's the guy at Atlantic City who's just like, I'm going to give you $1,500 and you give me $800 and I have to beat you eight times, but you have to beat me nine times. Yes, yes. Love that guy. I was like, why don't you guys just play pool for money? That guy is a top flow. Yeah, right. Why doesn't it just be like whoever wins, wins the money? It feels easy enough. Right. He's an Irishman. Yeah, he's in a ton of like. He passed away recently, but I always think of him. He's the gun dealer from Pittsburgh in Goodfellas. He's like, you want to see helicopters? He's also, he's De Niro's main Eagles buddy in Silver Linings Playbook. Yes, he's in Silver Linings, right. Which is sort of like a gangster movie without gangsters, and everyone in that movie is kind of all alive. Yeah, that's one I have not had the courage to rewatch that movie, and I really wonder how it would go down right now. Not even in a like, is it problematic way, but just like, were we all drunk? What was the fucking thing? I didn't love that shit at the time. Yes. So, like, I don't know. Like, I was not. Like, my opinion of all. I liked The Fighter a lot. The Fighter's really good. I thought The Fighter really nailed the whole kind of like, dirtbag. Yeah, I agree. And after that, I just felt like he was kind of losing it more and more with every movie. All three of those worked for me until Joy, where it fell apart so hard, and I have not rewatched any of them. That's The Vacuum. Yes. And in my mind's eye, I'm like, well, The Fighter still is legitimately pretty great. Right. And then. Silver Linings, it's like, the performances are good. It's kind of an overwrought movie. American Hustle, which I loved at the time, I'm just like, I know I would hate that now. I remember being so hyped for American Hustle, and midway through it. You wanted to get over on all these guys. You did want to get over on all these guys. It's got to be the best we've ever done. Yeah. That movie. I mean, I hated. At the time. I know. We fought about it. And I was like, it's fun. And now when I replay scenes in my mind, I'm embarrassed. But The Fighter, I wonder if it is actually the last good one, or if we watched it now, we'd be like, oh, you see the signs of where this is going. Probably a little bit. It also was just more of a novelty. It was like, oh, the I Heard Huckabee's guy made this, like, you know, Lowell, Massachusetts like everyone's screaming at each other. Yeah, but Oscar bait thing. Yeah, right. And it's like, oh, it's got some grit to it. It's a good movie. Adams is so good in that. Amy Adams? Yeah. Amazing in that one. Yes. Yes. It's, it's, I mean, this conversation's irrelevant because obviously he rebounded and hit his peak form in Amsterdam. I mean, he figured the whole thing out. And now his upcoming Al Davis movie should be pretty solid. Jesus Christ. I fucking forgot. I forgot that was happening. I'm a little excited for that movie. Well, I just Bale's dedication to him is kind of impressive. Bale's dedication? Bale has, like, got to be one of the greatest homies ever to be like, whatever you want to do this. I mean, it's my beef with it is that Bale's. He basically, like, co-wrote Amsterdam? Yeah. My beef with it is that Bale doesn't make a ton of movies and has wasted a lot of time making David O. Russell movies and where I'm like, he could have worked with some other guys. It is a stat I love to repeat, which is Christian Bale, one of our greatest living actors, in my opinion, one of the great screen actors. He's a great actor. And we think of as being such a dramatic, intense actor. All of his Oscar nominations are either for Adam McKay or David O. Russell movies. Correct. They're his two guys now. It's. And, you know, it's tough. But, like, the idea of Bale being like, I've studied Al Davis tape for two years. I'm going to occupy Al Davis in a way no one ever has. And Cage is like, get that wig on me. I think I can do Madden in five minutes. I saw Madden in 1983. Who is Al Davis? Al Davis was the. I mean, he was the owner of the Los Angeles and Oakland Raiders. Of the Raiders. Wasn't he also kind of the GM or whatever? Yeah, he was an old school, like, I'm king. Like, I get. I'm the owner. I'm the GM. He rocks. I also am the offensive coordinator. Right. And everybody runs fast and the quarterback throws deep. Just win, baby. And we just win. His famous motto. But he was like a genuinely transformational figure in football who, like, helped bring down color barriers and, like, right. He was like. He was a force for good, by and large. But, Ben, this is Madden, a David O. Russell film coming out this year. His coach was John Madden, who even at the time was a living cartoon character before he then literally became one. Nicholas Cage is playing him basically in, like, the suit from The Whale on loan. Yeah. Giving, like, what looks like a Mad TV performance. And I love Cage, right? This movie is, by all accounts, primarily about the video game. About how he licensed his name and likeness to the video. Is it really? Everything I've heard is that, like, that is the main story. It's certainly a big part of the movie. And, like, John Mulaney is playing Trip Hawkins who's, like, the guy from 3DO who, like, bitches him on the game. Are you kidding me? I thought this was, like, this is how they won the 70s. No, it's primarily about the game. I think that there will be some of that. I do think. I have heard from reliable people. I believe there was a Radiolab episode about how that game came into being. Right. It's an interesting story. And I have heard that is the primary text that this movie was based on. Oh, my God. This is incredible. And, yes, it has, uh, right, John Mulaney playing the founder of Electronic Arts, Shane Gillis, Sienna Miller, Catherine Hahn. Just the most obvious cast in the world. It was gonna be Will Ferrell. Will Ferrell was gonna be Matt. Right. Yeah. Which makes a ton of sense. A ton of sense. Yes. Right. It's just the thing with Cage is it's just, like, you're handing him lit firecrackers. Like, it's like, he's a good actor. But now we're just kind of back to post Longlegs, these directors being like, do you want to cut loose? And he's like, sure. You know, I can do that. So now he's doing, like, a Longlegs prequel or Longlegs is Immortal. Yeah. It's Fast Eddie Longlegs. I love Longlegs. I was, I was into Longlegs. I don't know if you want to go back to that. That announcement struck terror in my heart. Yeah. I don't think there's any need to return to that. Are you a Longlegs fan? I was when I saw it. It was somewhat impacted by the fact that I watched it. And the second I came out, Trump got shot in Pennsylvania. And I was just like, holy shit. And I immediately forgot all of Longlegs. You know? Longlegs just gets, like, photocopied over. Or I was like, this will be the most memorable movie I've ever seen because it's the day that Trump got shot. Yeah. But instead it was like, neither were. I was at a wedding. My dear friends, Pat May and Ashley Warren, two of the best people I know. Pat May? Pat May. Patrick May. My dear friends, Pat May and Anakin. Their secret wedding. All the best. He has a robot arm. He recently lost it to Count Dooku. I bless their love. Nothing bad will happen. But I was at their wedding. Weird speeches. Don't worry about it. That guy really is a beef with sand. Was at their wedding. We talk a lot about taxes in this one. Someone ran up and just in, like, one burst went, like, Trump was shot. There was a shooter at the White House Correspondents' Dinner, but Trump is safe. Oh, the more recent. You cannot give me that. Don't do that. That much information that quick in one sentence. I understand wanting to get all the information out in one sentence. But emotional rollercoaster. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, so. The color of money. The color of money. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We left off kind of where Eddie, Carmen, and Vincent part ways. Yes. Right. Eddie gets hustled. It shatters his image, I feel like. And he basically, half fires them. Yeah. Half. Yeah, it's like a soft dumping. Sets them free. Yes. Right, right. You actually don't need me anymore. I'm doing you a favor. But it's like, don't look at me. I'm disgusting. You have the money. Go to Atlantic City. But that's exactly. I feel like he's all confidence and now it's gone. And the other part of it is him being like, I fucked up. I need to pull the eject lever like as quickly as I can. I need to get out of here. This thing has gotten its hooks into me more deeply than I thought. And then this movie turns into a sort of an advertisement for optometry because it turns out that a lot of his problems were just that he needed a prescription glass. He needed to get the coolest prescription sunglasses in the world. So fucking cool. He looks cool getting his eyes tested. He does. He really does. He makes it all work for him. It is like Thanos getting a power glove where he's like, you don't understand. I can read the newspaper. Now, I wonder like how long he's been like, I have no idea who's president. I haven't seen an actual pool ball in clarity. Do you think Fast Eddie votes? I feel like he probably doesn't vote too much. No, I don't know how many things he does. It feels like he looks just like I was all in on Stevenson. And when that didn't happen, I checked out of the political process. Honest liberalism. Yeah. And then he kind of there. It's just a bit of a wander. It's a bit of a wander. It's a really good montage. Like you mentioned, it's a great montage of him getting his game back. But it is I feel like actually without Cruz like a little like the energy is gone a little bit. Well, this is where it should be a sports movie and the sport movie should end with game seven of the World Series or like the game that they and Newman has in other like this is not unlike Slapshot where the movie's culmination is I'm going to take all my clothes off and skate around in circles, you know, like rather than we beat these guys. And Color of Money is sort of like, well, there's the, tournament, there's Fast Eddie's kind of resorted, you know, because he beats, no, Tom Cruise beats Grady. Fast Eddie gets to the semifinals against Vince or the finals against Vince and the crane shots of the pool, the stadium, I was going to say pool hall, but this like stadium with like fucking 40 tables and then craning down to from behind Fast Eddie's head just looking at like his Valhalla. Yeah. And then all the like the behind the scenes stills, the production stills of this movie where it's like a track that goes around like goddamn Big Thunder Mountain. And then there will be like, you know, the pool tables are all up against one side and then everything else is Dolly track. I was recently in Atlantic City for what? My birthday. You went to Atlantic City for your birthday? Yeah, baby. I don't think you were relaying this to us. No, he told me. Really? Where's this gambling text? Borgata? Ocean. Okay. Borgata was fully booked. Interesting. Jerry Seinfeld was playing. Oh, oh boy. So went to the ocean. Gotta recommend the ocean. Really nice time. I mean, Atlantic City, however, not in the best. David is making two thumbs up smile. Everything's good. Haven't been to Atlantic City since Sean's fantasy's bachelor party. And tell me everything about Sean fantasy's bachelor party. That was where I discovered Gasolina, which is tequila and Red Bull or and we got one of Sean's family members to get bottle service at a nightclub. Now, I've only met Sean's family once, which was at the live show we did. It is crazy when they all show up and you're like, why does Sean not have a thick long eye? Like, right. Do you remember this Griffin from the. Yes. Sorry. My grandmother sending very insane emails right now. Classic Griffin situation. Yeah. Anyway, like, it's just funny that this movie is like, we're going to make it to Atlantic City. Having been to Atlantic City, I'm like, you don't want to make it there. You need to leave Atlantic City like you can spend a night, maybe two. Um, but I guess it was, it's like, I think like Atlantic City I think was ruined by like plane travel, basically. Right. And like Indian casinos. Yeah. Where it's basically now it just became it's like, well, why would you want to go there? You can go somewhere else. Well, it's the same. And now Vegas is being decimated by the fact that you don't have to go there to bet on sports, among other things. Yeah. Yeah. So what's going to happen to these places? I mean, I guess what's happening to Atlantic City might happen to other places. Possibly. Is good old-fashioned American gambling about to collapse. Like, are these prediction markets just like, to your point, I just hadn't considered this, but like, do people even bother to learn how to play poker? Not to be to be waxing poetic. To like feel it in their hands and like to study another man and be like, okay. This is sort of what this movie is about, of like needing to basically like elevate these things to an art form and a psychological sort of exploration, you know, a game of people reading. And just as much of that, I think it's like I know this is going to sound really corny, but it is a celebration of a certain kind of American third space that is disappearing. Yes. Chris, 100%. And it is like. And hey, we're talking about physical media, video stores is another one, you know. And I don't think in 20 or 30 years people are going to care that this is what American bars looked like in 1986. Right. And you're just like, okay, so now you're like. But I care. You're sitting at home doing an IG Live, like betting $50 that Lady Gaga's going to fart at the Grammys. Like, what are we now? Right. Griff, that bet got me $4,000. I know. I paid for my rent. And congrats to you and your family. Yeah, right. Yes, let's get rid of phone gambling and have more real gambling. That's my take. Yeah. Right? No more phone. Phone gambling, bad. Really bad. Real gambling, let me out. David loves it. Do you actually. Are you a fan? Yes. Yeah. But it's very good that I don't get to do it much. Yeah, I only. At the casino, I really only play blackjack, and it's just over really fast. Not to brag, I had an incredible night. I made like $600. Way to go, man. I'm going to say something on mic that I really just knowing we, you know, record this podcast a bit in advance. I hope these are not famous last words. I am so relieved that my father has not gotten into the prediction markets. Oh, boy. My father, a former gambling addict who has saved. I was about to say, on the good side of that. I was about to say, right. It's a long time. It's in the rear view, his gambling days. And like growing up, we would go to a fucking, you know, a Super Bowl party or an Oscar party where you could like fill out a form, and I didn't see it break him. He didn't start sweating and going like, oh, fuck, I'm remembering. But I just feel like the low bar for entry on the phone shit, beyond just the prediction markets, even just how easy sports betting is. What they call, you know, frictionless gambling. Which sports betting was this whole fucking thing. Yeah. That's right. The other thing is I love gambling. I don't care about sports gambling. It never does much for me. I love like the absolute coke rush of, I put chips on numbers, and maybe I won. Yes. Like, I'm just like, what? You know, like, I just, it does something for me that drinking, I don't know, one of the other, you know, drugs, these things I've never done. You know, Ben. You've seen me. I have. You just get very serious. You really go into a different mode. Yeah. We should have someone on who, it was, I basically was like, it was, because my wife was like, just do your bachelor party. I turned 40. Yeah. She was like, just do your bachelor party. Like, you were going to do it with your friends, Alex and Eric. Like, just fucking go, go gamble for a night. Like, you never got to do your bachelor party. Most incredible pod things I've ever, podcasting moments I've ever witnessed in person was when we would go to Caesars in Vegas for NBA Summer League, which is where the NBA teams go and let their newly drafted players play in like exhibition tournament, basically. It's also just an opportunity for everybody to gamble. So, I watched. Right, but you're all chatting to sources and all that shit. Bill Simmons, his longtime podcast co-host on Sunday Nights, Cousin Sal. The great Cousin Sal. Super Chef Dave Chang and Bill Simmons' buddy, Joe House. The great Joe House. On the back end, like the fumes of what was like basically an all-night gambling run, all-night blackjack run, where House and Chang had only left the blackjack table to go get off-strip gumbo in Vegas. And then came back at like. Is that strip gumbo? It's not authentic. 10 or 11 a.m. to do like a long, long podcast about the layers of gambling that they participated in last night that involved like Chang winning a bone-white chip that needed like his social security number to cash out. Bone-white. And they're all betting. An alabaster. Not only on their cards. I bet it was actually made of bone. But they're betting on other guys at the table where they're like I'm doing like layered bets on. I'm essentially staking this guy's next thing out. Yes. Even though he's not asking for it. Right, right, right, right. But he's hot. So, yes. I like when you can do that in craps. Like I like when you start making bets for the, you know, the groupiers, pit bosses, whatever. You know, like that's fun. No, I play every. Blackjack craps, really. Like those are. Yeah. You like it fast. You do not like long poker nights. No, I enjoy poker, but right now. You're impatient. Is that fair to say? I guess so. I think I also have a good metronome. That's at least what everyone was who was watching me that night was saying of like, I'm pretty good at being like I think I'm done. And like, you know. You're an incredible flake. Yeah. That's me. Yeah, I'm the flaky one. All right, let's close out. Yes. Talk a really rude thing to throw at Ben backhandedly. I'm joking. How dare you imply that Ben is flaky and late to records and fills the office with too many toys. I just think this is rude. No one fills the office with too many toys. Ben, by the way, has built a Star Destroyer sized cabinet behind him. Sound insulation! Wait, is that part of the argument? This is Griffin's new argument for bringing a bunch of, like, random crap into the offices that is helping to insulate. The Funko Pops absorb the sound. I need to once again remind you, we have very few Funko Pops in this office. It is not. I know. I love saying Funko Pops because I know it gets your goat. I just think they're low quality. Sure. In every sense. I've never owned one. The plastic tolerance is terrible. The designs are uninspired. Right, right. They kind of pump those out. But if someone made a Funko Pop of you, you would want it. Well, maybe that's why I dislike them because it feels sometimes like they have notably made an effort to not make one of me. I feel like we could get some podcaster Funko Pops made. Really? I don't. Because I mean. No. Okay. You're forgetting that at the peak of the tick, I was on, like, fucking phone calls with, like, Sony, like, licensing department. Where's the pop? And they were making bullshit excuses to me. All right. Okay. We gotta wrap this up. So, the end of this movie is. It's interesting because, like, it's what you were saying about Slapshot. It's like, there is. The triumph is. Um. It's fake. Yeah. Eddie beats Vince. But Vince was basically throwing it because he was laying bets against himself. Comes to the hotel room afterwards. It's like, here's your cut. Like, I dumped that game. Like, but I'm gonna win a bunch. You know, I'm gonna win a bunch of money later. Eddie forfeits the game. Like, the next game. Because it just fucks with his confidence again. Right. Like, and gives Vince the money back and is like, you know, let's do. It's like Rocky vs. Apollo Creed in private. Like, let's just face off for real. It's beautiful. I'm back. It's the best. Yeah. I mean, like, everyone's walking out happy, right? I think everybody's walking out happy, but I think a lot of people are walking out being like, what just happened? Sure. You think, like, maybe the movie needs the triumph and final game or something? Or I think that it's part of it becoming a little bit of a solo album in the back half of the movie and less about, like, his-- like, there's-- so much potential in his relationships to Vince and Carmen and even with Janelle and even with these other background characters that you're I think in another kind of movie you'd probably want if not resolution like development or deepening with that I think you're right that it is it is an excellent ending taken on its own but it undercuts the movie a little bit in that it does start to make you feel like all of that was just a distraction and it's not like I only want this to be a mentor mentee movie but it does sort of deflate that having been so much of the engine up until that point yeah and it's where you know you can watch this and you kind of walk out of it and you have maybe like a thousand different interpretations of what it means but because it is a little bit of a like I can do this with a look or I can do this with two words there isn't like a feeling of and then Eddie Filson went on to win 10 championships or like became the the most respected liquor salesman on the eastern sea board you know I there is no there there is there is there is a kind of it's a vibe not a resolution yeah and in a way I respect I like that the ending the ending is a little bit haunted and that it's like is it good that this guy's playing pool again where does this go it feels about as good as it's gonna get for him yeah and the original title for this movie was as good as it gets as good as it gets for him I mean like look when you compare the ending of this movie to the hustler yes you're like hey this is a bouncy ending like this is great but the ending of the hustler is the absolute um it is them making good on the promise of the setup right the entire movie is this existential journey of this guy trying to figure himself out and he doesn't like the answer he finds but the movie is an answer to the question that it poses well it's also like there's this a weird like it's not a one last job movie it's a I'm getting back into bank robbing movie and none of them in this movie are saying what I'd love to do is get the hell out of pool halls they're all like I have found my preferred environment that's why I like it and it's not a hectoring movie about like this is a bad life I'm like I know it's a bad life I don't care I mean in your parlance David this is this is an imperfect movie but it is like drugs it is unbelievable to watch yes yeah I think that's Marty like I think a different filmmaker would insert a more moral slant to it or insist on a more maybe like conventional yeah to it or I think that that that's a nice like button at the end for Newman I mean it's like such an easy like and give this guy the Oscar moment but the the last 30 minutes of the movie is if the first hour of it feels like coke it's the last 30 minutes are kind of a comedown and the last 30 minutes are a little jittery and you don't know who to trust and you don't know if life's gonna work out and it's kind of it's kind of like a it's more of a feeling than it is like a statement but I like the feeling a lot yeah yeah I agree with that now here's you're coming down and the screenplay for scum apprentice doesn't feel like it's necessarily it's not right going in the right direction yeah yeah um here's the question for you guys to run through this exercise this is kind of one of the most famous gold watch Oscar wins right they give it to him the year after they give him the lifetime achievement award he doesn't show up to the ceremony there's a lot of sliding doors of like obviously they should have given it to him for verdict when they don't do that it feels like they give him the lifetime because they know they kind of fucked up uh even though Gandhi was undeniable um and then this feels like it served to them on a platter it is fascinating to look at the fact that I think he won the national board of review for best actor and zero other precursors he doesn't win the golden globe this year obviously there were less things in 86 huh who won the golden globe I believe it was did Hoskins I think he did kind of ran the table yeah because Hoskins is certainly right the critical favorite that year yes for Mona Lisa uh yeah he won the golden globe that's what's fascinating is he always talked about like I love now had Newman maybe like already won golden globes I can look that up like you know it's possible the globes didn't care but it does when you look at it feel like it must have been a little surprising on Oscar night right because the momentum was not clearly behind him even though he's Hollywood royalty and this thing was a hit I know I would need to read more about it of like what was the press drumbeat at that point of kind of like guys Newman's up again you're not gonna fucking do this again are you you know like he showed up to the ceremony for the lifetime achievement year when that was still part of the main broadcast and I think there was a fulfillment moment there even if it's like this is embarrassing that we've never given this guy a competitive totally Hoskins and Mona Lisa is the better performance right uh taking on an incredibly good performance so sure but I do love this performance I do too who beats him the nobody's fool year oh that's a good question this is my question so like imagine we wait that long okay so because it's also less embarrassing that it's but then it becomes dire if it's if you're waiting till nobody's fool you're like it doesn't matter if Daniel Day-Lewis uh Tom Hanks beat him for Farscombe but that's his the second I don't think but there's a reason Tom Hanks won no universe in which he wasn't gonna win I mean like I think that would have been better but I think that would have been better because he's good and nobody's fool but that's not a movie where you're like well that's one of Newman's best either I mean he's good I love that performance yeah yeah he's good yeah I mean like he's incredible in Road to Perdition which is his last nom and that's Chris Cooper beating him sure but that would have been the true gold watch of like you old guy like you know you you did 15 great minutes in a supporting role like here's your Oscar I mean like I don't know I mean like he should have won earlier uh like I said he lost like you know he's he loses for the hustler to Maximilian Schell for Judgment at Nuremberg it's a pretty good movie and Schell's amazing in it obviously Paul Newman back then is young like he he his first nom is for Canada Hot Tin Roof he loses to David Niven for Separate Tables I'm not gonna litigate that right now like I don't know like I'd be like not right now I can't do that we're at three hours I also think his brick is interesting but maybe not entirely successful is that a wild that movie stinks yeah that movie is like a neutered you know version of the movie like I mean he's good yeah of the place you know and then like yeah he loses to Poitier he loses to Steiger those are pretty you know and then he loses for Absence of Malice the year like a few years before this to Henry Fonda for on Golden Pond but like was he not nominated for Luke I know he's not made for Luke he loses to uh Steiger that's the Steiger okay yeah was he nominated for HUD or no nominated for HUD lost to Sidney Poitier and he's not nominated for Butch Cassidy or Sting Redford gets the Sting nomination gets the Sting nomination Redford's only acting nom which is wild and like you know I mean obviously Newman's great in those movies but they're not like demanding in the same I don't know whatever they're not Oscar-y performances I guess yeah I don't know I mean he's one of the best so he should have an Oscar he got an Oscar for a good movie it's funny because then Scorsese wins an Oscar for The Departed and also that has the gold watch sort of asterisk put on it even though The Departed's incredible and it kind of kicks off like a whole new late period for him right but like that that is a narrative around Scorsese a lot I mean and like doesn't he direct Ellen Burstyn to a win right after The Exorcist yeah right which is another one where it's kind of like damn does she rock like did we fuck up not giving it to her for the I don't know yeah yeah what are you looking I feel like you're trying to find something no no I was just like I said the Redford thing and I was like did I just say something that's false but it's true it isn't saying that Redford's only acting nomination is for The Sting when you consider that like out of Africa won best picture and they didn't even nominate him that like neither of them got nominated for a few good men or not a few good men uh all the president's men did he get nominated for candidate no no it is that's a wild one best actor in a leading role that is it his first nomination is 1974 for The Sting and then it's two best directors for The Sting and then it's two best director nominations best picture nomination for quiz show and honorary award in 2000 okay right yeah yeah yeah I mean look I he didn't attend so there's no speech so yeah I have no like right there's no big uh I forget was he filming something or did he probably was he like I went last year I don't need to go again uh yeah uh and he's you know continues to make good movies Robert Wise right Robert Wise accepts on his behalf and then I think it's like Betty Davis is also on the stage this was Marie was sending us the clip yesterday where you said like god we really did used to let people just be so fucking old Robert Wise looks ancient but I looked it up and Betty Davis was 79 in that clip and then I texted everyone a photo of Susan Sarandon today and they're the same age yeah yeah um it's just like old people used to be very different Cruz as old now as Newman was when he did Color of Money has to be older right yeah yeah uh I can wow the Oscars have transcripts of every speech Robert Wise saying like Paul wanted everyone to know that after coming here for seven other occasions like this and then Betty Davis goes Robert for two minutes let me say something about you then starts talking about Robert Wise's career and she's like Robert Wise is the winner of two Oscars himself for the Sound of Music and West and she says that's right and the speech is over they do not mention Paul Newman Would they play people off? I mean, yeah, they would. And I think also they think the producers probably like this is not going to go in a good direction. Tom Cruise is, in fact, older today than Paul Newman was when they filmed The Color of Money by like a year or two. Pretty cool. Yeah. I mean, it's one of my favorite moments in television history is when they had Mickey Rooney present Best Supporting Actress at the SAG Awards. And he got up there and treated it as if he was receiving a Lifetime Achievement Award. He like made his seventh wife stand up in the crowd and made everyone applaud her. He like went through like it's it's a 15 minute. And the nominees are Judy Dench and Chocolat. Let's play the box office game. Yeah. October 17th, 1986. This movie's opening number two. Okay. 6.3 million dollars. It makes 52 domestic, which is pretty good. Scorsese doesn't have a movie hit 100 million domestic until The Aviator. Aviator. Yeah. But this is certainly the most straightforward conventional hit he has had since Taxi Driver. It gets four Oscar noms. Supporting actress for Mary Elizabeth Mastromatroni, who is very good. She loses to Diane Weiss for Handing Her Sisters. It's a pretty deserving win. Great win. Adapted screenplay, art direction, which is kind of a cool nom because it's such a trash And I also fully agree with. Yeah. It's like, yeah, there's there's just like they get like the tile floors, right? Like, it's perfect. It gets pretty good reviews. Ebert was kind of soft on it. He gave it two and a half stars. I mean, I think a lot of people were basically like, you know, Marty, you can do better. You know, I was interested in going back and reading how tepid people were. I was kind of like, you guys know what Pauline Kael got all over it. But Pauline Kael was bested by the lady. I mean, this feels it feels very akin to The Untouchables to me where you read those reviews and you're like, it's more summer popcorn fluff. And I'm like, this thing is directed by Brian De Palma. It has costumes by like Armani. It has a woman. It's a Morricone score. I recently found out. It's got David Mamet dialogue. We didn't know how fucking good we had it. I recently found out that my dad, I don't know. I don't think it was when it was released. I think it was in a video guide. And this is a opinion that he never shared with me or I blocked out. It's like Godfather 2 cash grab. This is the thing. I'm like, even even something like Untouchables, which I'm not arguing, is one of the great American movies. You're like, if this is what popcorn movies were, we'd be living in a perpetual golden age. No one could complain about anything. We would not be gambling on sports on our phones. Right. I would guess that part of the energy of the reviews at the time were, is this now the turning point in Scorsese's career? Does Scorsese become just a studio system hired gone? Is he movie stars just want him to lend a little credibility to their passion projects? And so once he follows this up with like two of his most personal movies, he's like, I'm going to be a movie star. I'm going to be a movie star. that's that no brooks no no blake edwards so yeah yeah it's jack lemon and julie andrews made independently by edwards using his own money uh have you guys ever done blank check blake edwards uh so we had him on a bracket once and we discouraged listeners from voting for him he's made like 35 movies and the last 15 are rough yeah we basically we had one year the great i had the conceptual idea what if we did a march madness bracket where one side is all oscar winners for best director and one side is all razzy winners for worst director because you got like costner in there prince there's weird razzy winners right there were interesting people in there and but to fill it out we had blake edwards it truly we could not fill out the bracket unless blake edwards was in there and so we basically messaged to people by technicality we had to put him in here don't vote for don't break the game it will end the show yeah we'll reject this yes yeah for a movie called sunset uh the uh the bruce willis james garner movie is what he won his razzy for like it's just insane that blake edwards directed fully three pink panther movies after sellers died yes people forget that he took three stabs at that that's like species quattro right you're like pink panther movie was son of the pink panther with roberto benigni one yeah but then like there's the clip show ones where they're like he uh cluso he's around the corner there's a clip show one and then there's a ted wasp one like ted wasp from soap was you revealed to also be a son of cluso at the end i think is that curse i think yeah yeah and trail is the clip show trail is the clip show one trail is like he's here somewhere and they open a door and they show you outtakes from one of the earlier movies you know people used to suck down it's like we're precious by the eye but like that's totally fine yeah that shit was great so dead i mean i like it's true like we're like god shit used to be so much better we used to make tv and then you like would watch tv shows where they're like ah i'm having memories of my and they would just do a clip show like there's there's the star trek where reicher has like memory syndrome right and like it's just like they're cutting to like we have to operate on him and then he just remembers a mission they did also like bruce lee died and they would just like pick some guy and be like your name is now bruce lee too yeah we've taken too much of chris's we have to operate on him and then he just remembers a mission they did have chris thank you for this thank you for having me thank you for everything went so long i'm so excited that i got to do this with you guys in person open range it felt like we were a great movie but we like i was reaching across the void on zoom so i'm really glad i've done it in person they're just not the same hopefully we can we drafted together last year on stage hopefully we'll draft together on the big picture sometime at the watch the watch people should listen to watch yeah uh anything else you want to plug uh no i think the watch the big picture the rewatchables appearances on Wait a Second where I discuss the news. Is that Jason's show? Yeah. Yeah. Enjoying that. We gotta get Jason on again. Yeah, we should. It's been too long. Yeah. He left the basketball text thread I'm in in fury because I had too many Pistons fans. Did it really? I thought you left that thread or did you just mute it? I take breaks from it. I take mental health breaks from it. There's too many people in it. But Jason, you know, he was just like, too many fucking Pistons fans. Yeah. We're not even playing the Pistons yet. Yeah. But thank you, CR. Thank you for having me. Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review, and subscribe. Next week is The Last Temptation of Christ. Assuming new releases don't move into those slots. Correct. Yes. Guest Jamel Bowie. Also, we should mention today over on our Patreon, releasing an episode where we're pairing New York stories and amazing stories. Oh, so yeah, as teed up in this. Yes. The stories, bud. Yes. Are you guys going to do bad? We're definitely going to do a music video episode. There's so much kind of ancillary, of course, stuff that's actually worth talking about that we're still strategizing how to do it, but I think yes. But we have a special guest that maybe we shouldn't announce because it isn't locked in, but pretty exciting. Yeah, and if it is locked in, then we'll drop the name in here. Barack Obama. Perfect. Wow. Can't believe that worked out. So yeah, tune in next week for that. And as always, I feel like I didn't hit it. Guys, that was awesome. Blank Check with Griffin and David is hosted by Griffin Newman and David Sims. Our executive producer is me, Ben Hossley. Our creative producer is Marie Barty Salinas. And our associate producer is A.J. McKeon. This show is mixed and edited by A.J. McKeon and Alan Smithy. Research by J.J. Birch. Our theme song is by Lane Montgomery and the Great American Novel, with additional music by Alex Mitchell. Artwork by Joe Bowen, Olly Moss, and Pat Reynolds. Our production assistant is Minik. Special thanks to David Cho, Jordan Fish, and Nate Patterson for their production help. Head over to BlankCheckPod.com for links to all of the real nerdy shit. Join our Patreon, Blank Check Special Features, for exclusive franchise commentaries and bonus episodes. Follow us on social at Blank Check Pod. Subscribe to our weekly newsletter, Checkbook, on Substack. This podcast is created and produced by Blank Check Productions.