The collective wave pool wisdom of Craig Stoddart and Damon Tudor

The Wave Pull Mag podcast is made possible due to support from Wave Pull operators, technology providers, and the growing list of companies doing business in the surf part space. For commercial opportunities, reach out to us at [email protected]. Thank you and stay stoked. Welcome to the Wave Pull Mag podcast. My name is Brian. My guests today are Craig Stoddirk and Damon Tudor, both heavy hitters in the Wave Pull and surf park industry. And I'm really stoked to have you guys on the show. Welcome. Thanks Brian. Good to see it. Great to see you buddy. There's so much collective experience and history within Wave Pools and surf parks between both of you. It's really impressive. So I'd like to start with you, Craig, if you could give us a little bit of history, I know you're instrumental in the wave. And what is your background in Wave Pools and surf parks? So my first involvement with the surf bars was I was relatively early alongside Nick Hancefield, who was the founder of the Wave. He's a long time friend and he'd got the project. He'd sort of identified some land and we have dinner and he told me about this crazy project and I kind of like getting involved in interesting stuff. So we started talking and helping him out a little bit on all of the sort of business and commercial investment side of stuff on how you set a business up. How do you get something going? And put a bit of seed money in and became an investor and an advisor in the early days. And I then finished a sort of turnaround job on a global business I was working on and had a bit of time and I said to Nick, look, I think it's time, I think there's something in this. I was really captured by the, I didn't come from a surfing background although I'd done water sports all my life, all sorts of different sports all my life. But I've always been an incredibly unsupply human being. So surfing was always quite challenging. But I really was inspired by the vision that Nick gave around a place for all ages, all backgrounds, all abilities and that blue health focus and all of the health and well-being opportunity that it brings alongside the economics and the economics for me with the sort of the thing that pushed it over the edge, it's very unusual you come across a opportunity where supply and demand is so mismatched. And the supply of surfable waves in the world is definitely continually outstripped by the suppliers there from natural surf breaks and beaches. And alongside that limited supply you've got this incredible growth in the surfing market, participation rates have been exploding all over the world. And at the same time of this mid-supply and demand mismatch, which is also driven by populations being a long way from the surfing, surfing locations, is you've got a technology that arrives on the scene to fix that problem. And it was that moment that sort of brought that all together of what an opportunity it is. And that was sort of why I got hooked on it. We, I worked very close to Nick, built the business model and the investment model and we pitched it over 250 investors over a couple of years. We were at that stage, we were selling vapor. There was nothing we could point at to explain what it was we were going to do. And we had lots of conversations with investors whereby they were inspired by the sort of the idea and the principle of it, but they couldn't get heads around the technology risk because it just, we couldn't take it, take them anyway to show them. So we had a long journey and then sort of 18 months into that sort of investor pitch and we got a call from Fernando Wavegarden who said, we'd originally, Nick had signed up to the original technology, the Lagoon technology. Yeah, that's right. And I remember in a podcast he went over that at some point, he also had a surf lock in there as well. Exactly. We originally put the investment, investment to the documents on the basis of the surf lock and we'd moved on from the Lagoon technology because we felt there was a, the surfing experience was, was relatively limited for the beginner and intermediate market, which was really going to be the key for a success in the UK with not a huge population of surfers who can surf to me to eye waves. So and the frequency of the wave didn't feel sticky enough to be able to come back and, and surf again and again. And then, you know, the single points of failure of the technology were obvious at that stage. So, yeah. And then alongside the capacity limitation of that technology, it just was not a viable technology to raise money on. And then the new technology came along and you were, yeah, and you were like, okay, I'm all in and it just happened, happened. Yeah. And it just, so we took some investors along to, to, to Spain and, you know, the, the key investor sort of said, I'll watch. We said, no, no, you're getting in. You threw him in. He never surfed before. Third wave he stood up. And the end of the hour, he was surfing the big wave out the back screaming, where do I sign? And that was the moment at the, we had the funding and the, and the technology. And it's, and it's not every business. You can throw someone at a pool and have them turn around and ride a check. Exactly, exactly. And, and Damon, your, your experience in wave pools has been, you know, we, you were, you're on the ground at UrbanServe running that system. The only company that currently has two wave pools and operation. You were instrumental in getting Sydney built enough the ground. I remember those great video clips of you and your giant arm wingspan and the deep end of the pool set against the concrete as, as that project came to life. And despite all the setbacks with the weather during the horribly wet December, you, you, you guys still got it up in, in running to share, share with our listeners. We're back-rounded. And, but that was like, yeah, what a journey. It's been similar to Craig and it's a lot of how we have stayed connected over the years. But yeah, I was still over in Dubai at the time, planning to come home. The kids, we wanted them to have their roots in Australia. So we made the decision to move back. It was about a month before we left in November 2018. I got a call from our then chair, David via the major equity investor in business that, you know, the team that is in help, there was a lot of work to do. There was a desire to get the project open. And for me, it was kind of like, I always use this analogy being given the keys to Willie Wanker's chocolate factory because being a surfer working for a place that was waves on tap sounds pretty good. You know, I could handle that. So came back, you know, met with the team, walked around the site, you know, that a plan actually was very ambitious to open in a few months. But there was a lot of work to do. It was still, you know, there was no, it was basically a big hole in the ground with walls and the wave machine in play. Nothing else there. So, you know, wonderful vision. Great, great ideas of plans. It was just a matter of building the strategy, identifying the risks we had to raise additional funding. And we worked so hard that first year to get Melbourne online, of course. So that was pretty wild, you know, was flying down to Melbourne from Sydney Monday to Friday after being out of the country for 10 years, living in a shared house with the guys, a bit bit of a fat house-esque, you know, and we worked out a warehouse like it was true start-up sort of territory. So, yeah, that was just the wild experience at times and you scratch your head sometimes and you think, "Oh, what have I done?" You know, but I think anyone in a startup environment kind of goes through the same. But we got open in 2019, which was fantastic. We made the decision, of course, sorry, it didn't make the decision of COVID, but COVID came along 11 weeks after that and we had six, seven subsequent closures of the Melbourne Park, which was really interesting. And we decided to push ahead with the capital raise and the Sydney project regardless. I mean, it was obviously a very promising site, challenging site because of the ground conditions. But nonetheless, we kept pushing forward and in 2022 there was definitely a post-Covid hangover in the construction industry in Australia and I think that was felt around the world as well and that drove up prices and materials, shortage of skilled labor, a whole bunch of issues. And not to mention the highest recorded rainfall ever in Sydney's history. So that year was brutal and I doubled down on that and decided to do a house renovation at the same time. So I was living this nightmare construction purely at home and at work. So, yeah, I think that's why the hair turns white to rhyme. But anyway, leave us to say, look, we got through it. Definitely tough. But, you know, the lessons learned from that and the experience of actually getting back up off the canvas and fighting the next day was legendary. And, you know, as a result, you know, building that team after working with people who were in the trenches with us. And, you know, it was really a team effort. You know, we all jumped in. There was plenty of people I relied on for sure, you know, but just to be part of that and coming out the other side, and that was May last year, of course, that we launched City, was just, was just epic, you know, and that was pretty much five and a half years for me. And then, yeah, I figured it was time to take a little break, let someone else take over at that point. We had really, I guess, done our job in terms of the initial sort of goal, which was to, you know, get the Melbourne project open, get the business another park stabilized and, you know, really handed over in a strong position, which was great. So that was incredibly satisfying. And, you know, just being able to provide jobs and seeing smiles on the faces as you do at the surf park was really the reward for that. You know, so, yeah, definitely a pretty wild six years. And here we are. And I'd like to talk about that. Here we are. You're both from opposite sides of the world with your respective surf parks. You're both open within, you know, 12 months of each other. There was a little back and forth as to who opened first between the wave and herb surf bell bearing. We know what we know what the answer to that. Well, said the record straight, Craig me to snow down, out, out. And there were, I, there are some key differences in the way each park is operated. You know, the wave is, is, it feels very more like camper van, neohippy, Brit. And, you know, urban surf Melbourne is like, all right, we're going to practice. We're going to shred. It's, it's more like aggro in, in that sense. But somewhere you two found a common meeting place or a common ground. And would one of you like to share how that, how that came about? Yeah, sure. I mean, it was, I think, you know, Dame, Dame, who's to the war through the whole journey of physics growing in hermense of the, the reality is, you know, we were going through a process of building, building things that had never been done before. And, you know, running that process was incredibly challenging when you had no reference points. So literally the only person I could pick up the phone to, to talk about, you know, if you hadn't experienced of this, what was, what was it like for you? You know, what, what solutions do you become up with? Was Damon? So, that, Damon, I've been talking probably, you know, every month or two for the last six years, nonstop. And so we built up a sort of, you know, long relationship of fighting the same fight of, you know, every, and it is very challenging, particularly when you're building the first one where you, you've, you've, and we were designing as we were building because, you know, Wave Garden was still, you know, they were still very nascent and, you know, it's much better if they've learned so much more now. But he was, it was, it was really challenging that. And we, and no one had all the answers. So, you know, the engineers didn't have all the answers. The ten older providers didn't have all the answers. So we had to sort of wrestle, wrestle with these challenges. And then once, you know, also from the operational side, you're building, you know, at that stage, we were building the largest surf schools in the world. And it never been done before. That all of the health and safety processes that go into, and they're very different from operating on the beach. And how do you build the, you know, your booking systems? How do you get the, the maintenance programs working? All of that sort of stuff was, was new and we were, you know, trying to put acres of common sense and experience from the team. You know, we had, we had both had really good teams around us. But even most of the team didn't have experience in doing exactly this. So it was a great reference point to be able to just touch base for Damon regularly and sort of say that, you know, this is where we're up to and we share, share quite a lot of the issues and challenges. And, and I think, you know, we were dealing with different sort of market bases, you know, Australia is a much more mature surf market in terms of the volume of people who are surfers. We, we had to be definitely much more broad in terms of our reach of, of people. And it was also very much the, the ethos and vision that Nick came up, you know, came up with, which was, you know, it was really, you know, it's fantastic to make that accessibility really heart of what we're doing. But we had to commercially, because we had to bring a wider variety of people and because they simply weren't the, the surfing numbers. So we were, we were in different, different prices and the brands developed accordingly, but the fundamental function and operational and practical elements were very, very similar. Okay. And then to you, but was there a moment where you and Demo, you know, you're, you're sharing beers and a bar and you're like, hey, let's start our own company. Or what, how did that, that part come about? Demo, go on. Yeah. I mean, for me, we'd always kind of talk about the great to work together sometimes because we knew we got along, had very similar sort of values set and how we like to work and what we like to do. You know, there's no question around that. And coming out of the surf, I think I was still running on a dretel enough to six years of just, you know, running so fast and I poured all of that, you know, that sort of energy that had been pent up into finishing off our house renovation for a couple of months and nearly killed myself in the process doing it, but the physical toll was great. You know, so from there, I had to kind of detox from, you know, the rapid startup of environment. And that's from, I got the call from Craig, but make, I'll let you tell that bit. Okay, Craig. So you called him up. You're like, we're going to do this thing or be ready to add it or. Yeah. So I left the wave in Jan 23. So we, yeah, we, and I'll sort of give you a bit of background on that because it sort of gives the context, but we through, effectively, we sold the business to a private energy firm in 2022 with the idea of rolling it out and building the London, et cetera. And the day pretty much the week, the deal signed the crane war hit. And so we ended up having a power cost went up four times, construction cost went up 40%, demand drops. And so off the back of that, everything was sort of held. And so, you know, I'm a doer. I'm a sort of makes, makes it happen. And, and the idea of sort of not being able to do anything. I felt it was probably time for me to move on and step forward and step out. And in 2022, while we were sort of getting through all of that bit, I was approached by some people from Bahrain to help them build one there. And anyway, when I said, I just, simply, I haven't got time. I was in the real thick of it. But then when I finished, they got back in touch and said, "Nenno, we're really serious. We really want you to help us." So I then sort of started on this journey of consultancy, effectively, is helping, helping then do what we're done from concept right through to operations. And it just struck me that there's a great opportunity, that the lessons that we've learned through that journey are enormous. And, you know, having covered every aspect of it. So, you know, developing the business plan right from beginning, negotiating the funding and getting out there and raising the money, running and overseeing the development and the construction, building the team from scratch and developing all the processes. That is, yeah, I wish someone had been there when I was doing it to tell me what to do. So it's a great opportunity, yeah, with the growth in surfbugs and the opportunity that, yeah, there will be a hundred of these in the not too distant future. Then if we can help people on that journey, then that's got to be valuable to them. So, and it was through the journey of starting to do that with Bahrain, that it became clear to me as more and more people got in touch from me saying, would you help? What was your journey? How can we help you? What would be, you know, lots of developers who were sort of stuck in moments of like, what do I do next? And it may again clear to me that one, I wouldn't have the capacity to do it myself. And two, there was only one other person that I felt good to provide that complete breadth of knowledge that is the development and the operations in one and that was demo. So it was very clear to me, I need this man, I call, to be able to put, you know, sort of develop the business. Okay, and then so So now you have what is this entity, this power twins between Craig and Dema, what is it? Yeah, great question, Brian. We call the company Thinking Adrenaline. We're basically looking at how we provide support to surf parks and anything in the adventure at related space. We're involved in a couple of different types of concepts that we're exploring at the moment. Anything that's based on that experiential leisure. So rather than seeing an arolicoste going on a track, which is good fun and awesome and I'll do it with my kids. It's more about, well, how's technology enabled access to experiences, particularly around adventure sport that hasn't been allowed before? Very much like a surf park and we kind of compare it to e-bikes or mountain biking. You spend so much energy riding up the mountain on the way down. You lose your form when you're practicing your jumps and your turns and all the tricks on a mountain bike, right? And I know this because I'm trying to keep up with my son who's 13 mountain biking down the thing. So that's how we kind of saw it. And just that innate desire of, look, we love to help people. There's some wonderful visionary people out there who've got these amazing ideas and have been gone through the journey of being able to crystallize that, build the plan and execute the plan, which is sometimes a big part of the gap and provide some of that horsepower behind it really is what motivated us. So naturally for surfing, it's a bit of a bonus because we've been so deeply involved in the period of time. Everything, as Craig said, everything from presenting to a board and investors through to gosh, I see Nihal is watching that. That lagoon floor pour out the back of the trucks every single day, like that one new show detail. You just had to monitor these things closely and that's kind of the attention that needs right. So parks is new. It's still considered a risky investment, but potentially a very big sector for us. So yeah, that's kind of how I see the overall picture and how we contribute. Okay. And so I think the other bit, Brian, is that there is definitely a gap between the developers and the investment community, where the investors feel a bit uncertain, feel as quite a risk in it and they need support in navigating that. And the same way the developers need confidence that they're taking the right decisions and are going to be investable. So there's a sort of joint button. We speak to investors and we speak to developers that need support in. Okay. So how if I'm an investor, someone's approached me, they wanted to surf park and what do you do? What do you provide? Is like every step of the way from cat-ex to op-ex? Where do you fit in with the ecosystem of opening and running a wave call? So it can cover a whole bunch of angles. So if you look at craigs basically at Easy Acting CEO for Barrain at the moment. So that's the full end to end service where we step in as the team, drive it, we build the team, we'll be the core of getting that project from that concept, although through the development stage support the funding requirements, construction, setting up for launch, building the team and operation, the commercial aspects of the operations again and then running it. So we're involved all the way through the pipe in that way but at the same time, there's a lot of projects out there that may be, for example, pre-seed. So we would be involved just at an advisory level on a small scale because that's when the budget's aside, you're looking for the next dollar to come to the door to support your project, you're tapping everyone for help. So we're not there to provide some big cost-based, we want to help guide people through that and we can scale up as we go. We will support investors and developers and as Craig said, basically, there's communication that helps debunk some of these things but really our goal on being involved is about de-risking those projects, bringing some of that knowledge to it, looking at the studies is it realistic? How do we do this? Identifying some of the forward risk and how we mitigate those, all of those aspects are really important. So it's great that we're in a position where we're not some big entity. We can be very flexible about what a customer needs or a client needs. Okay. And I think one of our core principles is that we're independent. So we're not tied to any technology. We're truly on the side of the developer to make the right choices along the way. And to guide investors about why those choices are the right choices. So that's one element of it. The other element is obviously, they're not only two people and we only have X amount of hours in a day. Is we've got a lot of access to some great people and in Bahrain, we've got someone running the construction side and some running the operational side. So it's not just about us, but it's also other teams that we can bring in. And that could, you know, it's people that we trust and we know will get the right results for the client. And so that's an important aspect of it. We couldn't, you know, I couldn't do what I'm doing with Bahrain at the moment if I was the CEO that I had to be for the wave. We wouldn't be able to do that and be able to support other clients. It's a slightly different structure. But what we are building in Bahrain is we've got a fantastic general manager, Victoria, who is far more experienced than I am in terms of operating leisure. But she hasn't got the experience of a surf park and all of the issues of building and constructing and operating that. So it's a project over sign support and then where the developer needs specific resource or specific experience than we can help in those particular areas. Okay. Great. Now, I'm really curious about Bahrain. So why Bahrain? I know there's a project in Saudi Arabia. I know the Middle East is kind of happening right now. There's Project Saudi Arabia, Suraf Abu Dhabi. There's some other whispers of other projects happening. So tell us about Bahrain. Why there? Bahrain. So first of all, I mean, I'd not been to Bahrain before I got asked to come and help them. And I didn't particularly know the Middle East very well. But wow, I've been completely blown away by Bahrain as a country, incredibly welcoming people, very, very diverse country and society and an island nation who hold the sea very dearly. And in fact Bahrain means two seas. And there is a little bit of surfing there. You get a bit of windswelfl surf every so often and there's a very small but they can surf community. But the vision for Bahrain is about putting Bahrain on the map for the global community. And a great way to do that is to do something that never been done before in the region. And with everything that surf parks is bringing, to be able to bring that to Bahrain and show that as something great to do there, it's it's handily en route between Europe and the waves in Indo and Moldeaves and places like that and Sri Lanka. So great place for a stopover. The development itself is down on the west coast about halfway down Bahrain where they're developing a whole new town along this three mile beach that's there and the surf park is to hook in the anchor for that development. And it's a great, you know, all of the references for surfing are a great sort of thing for that population and for the wider tourism economy there, there's a huge amount of people who travel to Bahrain, particularly from Saudi Arabia because there's a connection through the King Al-Fair callsway but also from the rest of the the Gulf countries. So it's a great location to develop that and there's a real hunger for active leisure and the participation rates in Bahrain but also in the wider Gulf arena around youth participation in sports and wider development in sports is growing credibly quickly. And so more and more they need to develop access to these sort of things and that's very much complex. All right, now I want to turn it over to a demo for you come from Melbourne and Sydney projects where there's a lot of, there's a core surf audience. What special challenges in operating a wave pool and a non-indemic region of the world that's new to surfing? How do you address that? Yeah, it's a great point. And it's funny because the strategy around how I would tackle it over here, isn't that far from how we get a urban surf? I mean, urban surf probably we had a bigger focus in the early days on just making sure that core customer, the core surfer identified with our brand. We're authentic, we're true to the serve, true to the community. All those grassroots types of things that Australian surfers love. We can be a tough audience at times. And if you're going to get it wrong, you can be on the outer. But a massive effort, and that's something that I know Jen's working on hard now, is that broader demographic, talking to people from an array, you know, male, female, however you identify, wherever you come from, whatever your experience in the water. And we spend a lot of time on school routes, understanding how currents behave, water awareness, water safety, all of these sorts of things in Melbourne, and that's happening in Sydney. That was always a very important part of not just the community focus aspect of the project, but the commercial aspects as well, it all makes sense that you're talking to an array of consumers and they feel welcome and invited in this environment. And they see it as an awesome experience that's accessible. We weren't selling surfing, we were selling access to this amazing experience that just happened to be surfing. So if you apply those principles in the Middle East, yeah, you may not have that sort of large core surf audience, but if you're creating communities, if you're creating awareness, if you're inviting people from experience where they feel comfortable for the first time, and it is something that's addictive, right? This is surfing. You know, you're part of a group. If you think about some of the sessions we ran in Australia, which were the six week sort of programs, you were starting the journey with someone who'd never done it before either. So you're both in this awkward position of starting out, feeling a bit embarrassed about getting into wetsuit for the first time, all these things, right? And then you go on this journey of growth together, well, you're naturally bonded to people, right? And you combine that with surfing and that sort of developed into larger communities. I think that's a key part of it here, but there's a big education aspect behind it. I think the water is very much a cherished thing in this part of the world. People love being either at the beach or by the pool or associated with the water somehow, just by the nature of it. And then combining that with a amazing experience in a controlled environment that's safe from a comparison of having a life-guiding educational awareness around all of that. It's a great mix of things that pull together in this part of the world, you know. And I think what we're seeing, as we've already seen in the waypools, is this growth in this audience of people that surfing speaks to that never did before. Now, that's game-changing, right? Now, is that something, do you, both of you, being at ground zero for weepers when they are open? I know in the early days everyone was talking about the core surf market. Is this kind of expanding as an experience, adventure tourism, to that happen and you're like, oh, wait a minute, this other thing will work. Or did you borrow that from some other leisure activity and kind of injected into surf bars? I think it was very much embedded in the original vision of the way, because it was always about accessibility for people from all ages or backgrounds and all abilities, whether they surf before or not. So it was absolutely part of that. And it is a transformational technology because we all know how difficult surfing is to learn. And the learning curve within a surf pool is so much quicker. But it's also wider than that. What we saw was probably, just people coming to have a look at other people surfing was eye opening to them and seeing that people of all shapes and sizes were able to do it was eye opening to people who, from a distance, were very daunted by the thought of it. And so I think what became clear is that almost the biggest sales tool for getting people in the water was trying to invite them into the space, not necessarily to surf. So being able to create that wider experience around the lagoon is as important or even more important than the experience. And how accessible it is, how do you get people who, their initial impression is, I wouldn't work, that's not for me. We've got to get them there, we've got to get them to go, you know, have a look at it to see this may be something for me. And that challenge, particularly in the Middle East and Barraini, is an island nation, 50% of the population can't swim. Wow. So it's a huge challenge. Now the government have stated that they are, they're inshusing swimming into the curriculum. So they are, you know, we're going to be working with the Barrain Life Serving Association to become a location where they can develop that swimming skill as well. So we're going right back to the sort of base level of getting into water. And then learning about currents and learning about way of being in water with waves, right up to developing a pathway towards being surfers. And you know, we're going to be setting up a Barrain surf federation so that we can really go from a complete grassroots, no surfing culture to in the long term, where potentially there's people competing at the highest level. So you, I think you need a few more challenges here, Pragan Zama, a non-endemic surf environment where half the population doesn't swim. It sounds pretty crazy, but I can tell just by talking to both of you, you're really up for the task and you have a lot to bring to this. So it on you. So this is cool running for surfing. I love that description. It's funny, isn't it? I think to work in the industry, and we're having a laugh at someone the other night, we're acknowledging there's probably a little bit of nut space on the approach, but I think you have to be to embark upon this startup journey and some radical new sort of space. And here we are, but there was a time when, you know, I'm sure anyone in the audience in surfers among us will room at that time, you know, Slater's wave dropped. You know, it was like a specific moment where you kind of pause and what the hell is going on here. waypuls, they could be wrong but, you know, the quality of that wave and the ocean going nature of it and how close it was. It was just remarkable, right? So, you know, yeah, a little bit crazy but, um, if a surf park could have been built in the first place and given what we've been through to me, anything's possible, right? And that's really exciting. Right on. And it's, um, I, I wanted to go now you have this, uh, company you're helping out in Bahrain, um, but you're this dynamic duo with so much experience behind you. We have to come up with a colorful name for the, the dynamic duo. That's already been used. So send me some of your ideas. But in that process, you, um, where else are you? Where else are you helping out with projects? I know a lot of it. He can't disclose, but are you, are you working on other developments at the moment? Yeah. So we've got, um, a number of clients across the world. We, first of all, we, we very much view, view ourselves as a global, um, global business supporting projects wherever they are in the world. And, you know, as we know, surf park, surf parks are developing in every country to the continent. Um, so we're working with some, some clients in the US, in Europe, in Asia, in us, you know, as well. So, um, there's across the world and in different stages as well. So some right at the beginning of the journey and some who were, you know, perhaps further along and maybe in the construction stage. Um, and, um, you know, I think it doesn't really matter what stays out. There's always a lot to learn and a lot of experience that we can share with people, uh, to, to help them through the journey. Okay. And, uh, what I want to get to a lot of our listenership is, um, people who are, are just in the process of starting a development, dreaming of a development, working in a peripheral, uh, company that, that does work in the space. What advice would you give someone starting out a project? I know it's a super open, open ended, huge question, but if you could filter everything down to, to maybe one key thing, um, or just pick one, I know they're, they're somewhat equal throughout, but what, what gem of wisdom would you, uh, empower someone before we, we close out this podcast? Yeah, it's a great question. Jesus, you put me on the spot first. I think, yeah, that's all right. Great. Um, but, um, the door, lately, but yeah, well, played mate, well, played that great question, right? And I remember at the surf part conference, we kind of, but asked by one of the audience members who needed our, our, our talk was sort of the top file I've learned using Kragonite kind to look at each other when, whoo, there was a big sigh, sort of between us, you know, and the crowd actually laughed. So we must have been showing a bit of pain on the face, right? You know, so it was pretty funny. But I think that for me, the biggest takeaway, I mean, I've always loved the people aspect of it and the importance of that. And, you know, we were operating in as CIO rolls and CIO rock, they're very lonely place. But, you know, I was really fortunate. Just a wonderful board chair with David and Simon. I had Keith's of a CFO, you know, Sean and Brent James, all the guy, you know, I can refer to all the names. But for me, it was about that you just copy so many hits like one day to the next. There was situations where I was like, I think we're going to make it through this. But for me, it was about the reliance on that team that those people that even they're part of my team, but just people I could rely on to get back up and fight the next day. And I think that's a really important thing. So somebody studying on the journey may not have a team around them. But you've got to look a bit forward and focus on I will have this. Who can I help to sort of bounce a few. What I think might be silly questions off, but they're actually good questions just to help bounce back, you know, so look at so quite a long response. But I think it's the ability to be able to bounce back and then to build the people around you that can even support. And that's a you're going to grow and that's how you're going to take the businesses off the ground from a vision to a reality. That's a fact from my book. Okay. And Craig, would you agree that team is the. I'll see a team is yeah, you're not going to get anywhere if you think you can do on your own that that's for sure. But I think the the journey from vision to reality is I often say that painting the picture is is one thing and it's very, very important that is an exciting vision and everyone really gets around it. The reaction getting these built and delivered is is actually looking at the risks and really focusing on those and going what's going to stop me getting there. First of all, you know, it is your absolute overriding focus because when it comes to raising money, you sell the vision within the first half of an hour and they get that. Their mindset immediately moves to risk. Where is the risk here and often we don't spend enough time looking at where the risks are now that could be land risk. It could be technology risk. It could be commercial risk. It could be management risk. All of those things, but that focus on what's going to stop me getting there and how do I mitigate that is really how you get these really, really challenging projects done. And it's it's often a sort of a mindset change that people, you know, they're getting very excited about what it looks like what it good look like. But you've got to focus on what actually the walls in front of me that got a climate, how do I get around them? OK, great advice, great advice. Craig is mentioning the walls and demos mentioning the team, though they're vital to bringing a project across the finish line there. Do you want more question you two working together? How's that dynamic play out? Is there a good cop bad cop? An area is one of you like we have to shut down this you do a cragg or you do it, demo. How is your chemistry working? Yeah, it will I'm going to we'll see where the demo agrees with me here. But I think it's working really well. I mean, we we haven't spend that much physical time together over the years. We're actually together in Dubai at the moment. So I'm here for a couple of weeks, which is fantastic spends, yeah, much more time together. But there are so many things where we're very similar in nature, but we have some really good complimentary skills as well. And I think it's quite often when we get into a conversation we'll sort of yeah, we'll we'll violently agree on. On a set of principles, which is great. We haven't had any you know any rouse or massive rouse. I think we're generally heading in the right direction, but there has been a sort of natural. Yeah, the demos of background in sales and marketing is is so much stronger than my background in that sort of thing. So, you know, there's areas that he's much stronger than I am and vice versa. And we've sort of just naturally fell into falling into some of that stuff. Yeah, I think this is a bloody nightmare. No, no, no, no, no, no, I couldn't do it too, mate. We could we could have been a fun weather for sure, but no, they look at it's been it's been it's been great. But I think the key thing here is you know you're sharing those values. How you want to support people and help them along the journey. And the fact that we've kind of been in the same trenches fighting the fight, even though it was an opposite sides of the world, that common ground. So when Craig shares the experience, I really absorb it. So just going to go, yeah, I'll totally get it. And I learn more. You know, and that's that's really rewarding to have an a partnership or anyone to work with right in that you can identify and then grow from it. You know, that's pretty cool. And you know, as you get older, you think, you know, you learn less, but it's just continuing to learn, which is fantastic. And I'm really joined that. Right on, right on sounds sounds great. I'm really excited for both of you and the projects that you're helping bring to our world wave pull map on the on the website here. Sounds great. Thank you so much for for taking time out of your day and and dropping in. Well, Brian, thank you. And I think every year, you're doing for the for the industry is fantastic. So bring it to people's. You know, ears along the way is fantastic. And it is a mystery in Sydney. But hopefully we'll get a wave in Munich at some point or in the near future in the least. Yes, yes, definitely. I'll look out for you guys. All right. Thank you. All right. Take care.