The Charming Susan Strangler - Demarest, New Jersey

This week, in Demarest, New Jersey, when two women disappear, both found brutally murdered within days of each other, it turns out that both of their names were Susan, and that's not the only thing that connects them to a local troublemaker nicknamed the Charmer. Welcome to Small Town Murder. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Yay! Yeah, indeed, Jimmy. Yeah, indeed. My name is James Petroghalo, I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wisman. Thank you, folks, so much for joining us today, and another really absolutely nutty wild, insane, crazy addition of Small Town Murder. This guy is wild, and they thought he was responsible for a whole lot more of murder. It's a crazy episode. We will get into that, and much more. Before we do that, though, definitely head over to shut up and give me murder.com. Get your tickets for live shows, only two left this year. That's it. Get in there. 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Patreon sports, your stupid opinions, and of course, both Small Town Murder's all ad-free. Holy shit. Ad-free. Give it away. They're taking ad-free. Then, on top of that, you also get a shout out at the end of the show, too, because dammit we care. So we'll work on that. That's that disclaimer time. This is a comedy show, everybody. We're comedians. People are certainly going to die. The show's called Small Town Murder. So we don't want to rip you off there. The thing is, you go, well, how does that, how does that do those things go together? I don't understand. I don't get it. Well, very easily. The way we do it is we never make fun of the victims or the victims' families. Why, James? Because we're assholes, but we're not scumbags. That's it. That's how you do it like that. It's real easy. There's plenty of other stuff to make fun of. We all are from somewhere that deserves to be made fun of. It's fun to make fun of a town. That's good times. Some police force that bumbles around and doesn't do their jobs and lets somebody kill others. That is let people go out and keep killing. That's something they made fun of and we make fun of murderers because fuck them. What else do we have? We have nothing else we can do with that. So do you think that sounds good? You're going to hear a hell of a story. Do you think true crime and comedy should never ever go together? Maybe not. You might not like it, but we think you will and we think you should stick around and find out. But, either way. Fuckin' word. No goddamn complainin' afterward. That's how that works. So I think it's time everybody with that said to sit back. Let me say, clear the lungs. There we go. Arms to the sky. Let's all shout. Shout out back, give me murder. Let's do this everybody. What do you say? Everybody ready? Let's go on a trip. Shall we? Back, Jimmy? Behind your chair. He's good as they're going to be. They're a little hoarse. Jimmy's just got a like a glad bag. It's one of the ones where you pull it tight and everything like that. He's sittin' in this milk crate that I put roller skate wheels on. That's pretty good. Yeah. That's good luggage. And he just ties a string to it. He ties a string from that to his belt loop and he just drags it behind him in the airport. It's real nice. Yeah, good law. It's pretty fun stuff. We're going to Demarest, New Jersey this week, D-E-M-A-R-E-S-T Demarest, which sounds like some sort of product. Yeah. Like if it was Demarest, you'd be like it's some sort of skin thing where you like put it on in your legs as your shoulders type of shampoo. Totally does. Demarest. Yeah. Get your Demarest two for one right now, shop right. This side tingles. It's this side, not so much. I'm feelin' anything. With this side, tingles. Who did? Oh, Selsen Blue is that one. Selsen Blue are one of those. Yeah. I remember that thing. He's the fine middle. The part down the middle. Get shampoo on either side. This side. Tingling over here. That's so much. Well, then that sounds like it's bad for you. I was gonna say, is tingling of the scalp good? Tingling? Not good. It seems bad. This is in Northeastern New Jersey, about 50 minutes to New York City, so you know, it's gonna be expensive because it is within commuter range, very easy commuter range, about two hours to filly the other direction, and about an hour and 10 to our last New Jersey episode, Franklin, New Jersey, episode 702. I remember that one, the bloody pizza murders. Remember that. There was way more to it than that, but they come to the scene and find a corpse and a pizza. They're like, what this is odd? This is in Bergen County, area code 201, a little bit of history here. We'll do a quick little history. John Demarest's wool mill became an optical company, and at one point there was a wool mill, then it became like an eyeglass company, I guess. Jackets to glasses. And then later, a piano factory, this building is like he's got a hobby, and he just changes the hobby every 10 years, like I'm gonna make these. I don't know if those were his, all of his, but I don't know how you'd have to completely retool a factory to be making it from wool to pianos. It's a very different thing. In 1903, the borough of Demarest became a thing after they separated from the township of Harrington. They don't want to be with those fucking bums anymore, so the first mayor was John H.Z. Demarest. Demarest. By this time, there was all sorts of new people coming in. They had a new church congregation, the Methodists were coming. They used to meet in the bowling alley, and then it burned down, so they had to figure out where to go. This is everything burned down back then. The First World War had a lot of military activity around here. They had camp merit, which was being built in Crest Kill and Dumont, and while that was happening, troops were caught in tents on the Demarest race track. They just put them out on the racetrack. Everybody. Like a horse track. A big open area, I guess, for a lot of troops, and that's where the high school is now, apparently. I don't know. Racetrack was, and where the troops were caught. So, a little bit of review time here. Here's some reviews of this town. Here's five stars. Demarest is a really quiet place with very friendly neighbors and community members. Yeah. It's not the same people, huh? No, neighbors and community members are very separate. That's why I read it like a neighbor's and community mode. We got everything here, though it's an extremely small town. It has a gazebo downtown where many concerts and events are hosted free for the public over the summer. That fucking gazebo. We'll find out what there is to do, don't you worry. The downtown area is small, like the town, with few stores, but it's never an issue as a few minute drive to the neighboring towns. You'll get all the stores you need, and you're less than an hour from goddamn Manhattan. You can literally find anything you need within an hour of your house. The schools are also above in education and have many achievements throughout the years. Not the students, the school themselves. The school. Yeah. The school. The building, very impressive, though, wins a lot of awards. Four stars, just very short, the crime isn't very bad in my town. Good. I guess that's good. We'll find out later with some stats about that. Here's three stars. Finally, and this is the lowest review I could find as three stars. It's an all right town. The schools here are decent enough, and there is care put into them. People here are genuinely nice and friendly. It also has a nature center, which is a plus. However, it is known to be, quote, one of the safest towns in New Jersey for a reason. If you're considering moving here, though, please consider for yourself. Is there something such as "too safe"? A quote unquote? Oh, it's so safe that it's not now. Perhaps this place is just as low as you into false sense of security. Yeah. This is what people do. They have kids, and they move out to places. They feel are too safe. Yeah. If you're like starting a band and you're 24, this might not be the best place for you. You might want to find an unused warehouse space where they used to make pianos and eyeglasses, and you could figure that out. A little scarier place for some. Yeah. And then just some food for thought. Oh, it's too nice is their complaint. People in this town, 4,977 crushed souls under the heel of being too nice around here to say more men than women, which is odd for a town of this size. It's only 49% women. So bit of a sausage party here in Demarest. Demarest is a kind of sausage in case you weren't. In case you were wondering. I know it's Might as well. The median age here, 45, which you kind of see that with the burbs people have with their little older family here. This is one of the highest we've ever seen. It is 50/50 is normal for the rest of the country and married. 76% married. These are, yeah, it's a plain, livable family community. You moved here when you thought the city got, when it was too hard to get your baby carriage down three flights of stairs and your walk up. You were like, okay, we're moving to fucking Jersey. Tired of dragging that shit down the stairs in the subway. Too much. 76% married, 2% divorced. So these people have money and they're like, we are not getting divorced. It will not breaking up this fortune. I did have a nightmare the other night that I was still married and they want whoever what I was married to wanted to divorce and I was like, oh no. It wasn't your ex-wife, which you're thrilled about. No, it's just another one. I don't know who it was. They knew they didn't want you. That's all they knew. But now I know I got to give away my house again. Oh man, I don't want to do that. But I just got it how I like it. I just put a garage in. 1.4% single with children. There are no single parents here. That is insane. Race in this town 56.9% white, 0.3% black. That is very low. 32.6% Asian. You didn't expect that stat to fly out of there. It's I don't know what it is. There's a lot of Asian people here. You can have as many as you want. Don't get me wrong. You're loud. You're like, go crazy. 7.9% Hispanic. So pretty diverse, I would say. 65% of the people here are religious. Normally it's 50-50. And no shock with the runaway, the runaway hit of the season isn't as far as religion is in Northeastern New Jersey. 49.6% of the people here are Catholic. Those Asian Catholics, they really, say they even got the Asians being Catholic now. That's wild. That is something 4.3% Jewish. Oh my goodness. Oh yeah. Oh we can sing. That's like two weeks in a row. Let's do it. That's fun. Okay. Unemployment about average median household income well above average rest of the country. Yeah, about 69,000 rest of the country here. $191,346. And they're broke. Yeah. And they're stretching right now. The cost of living here 100 is regular average. Here it's 141. Pretty high. Everything is pretty normal except for housing, which is extreme. The median home cost here is 964,500 bucks. Median is a million dollars. Amazing. Wild. So let's find out what's available if you decided that you also would like to live in a very Catholic suburb of New York City. We have for you the Demarrest New Jersey real estate report. Here is okay a three-bedroom one bath. None of these have square footage on them by the way. I don't know. One bath. One bath maybe one and a half. Yeah. Something but three-bed one bath. No, I don't know what the square footage is. I would say looking at it about 1500. It's a two-story house, not huge vinyl siding. Yeah. The inside needs a shitload of work. It needs some work here. $849,000. That's the cheapest house in the area. Oh my god. That's and that just had a price cut of 26,000. But that is the cheapest house in the area. It's 850,000 and it's a pretty small house that needs a bunch of work. Almost can't live in it. Yep. Here's one three-bedroom two bath. Again, I'm not sure the square footage looks to be about the same, about 1500, two-story little box of a house. Inside's not great, old carpeting, old shit. It even says that older three-bedroom one and a half bath house in need of renovation or build new. Or tear it apart. Or tear it to the ground, build a new one. $1,199,000 for a fucking tear down. Maybe restart with this $1,000,000. Wow. Then I have the big one here. This one, they actually listed the square foot in the listing. So it's in here. Six-bedroom eight bath, tea bowl for each and every bee. Oh, man. A couple of neighbors. 7,829 square feet. Huge. Modern-looking, pretty cool castle. Very nice. $4,500,000. I mean, come on, man. Is that on land? No, this is half an acre, maybe. He got a neighbor right there. Oh, yeah, for sure. In their big giant rich house, looking at you, complaining that you're there, things to do in this town. There we go. Demarest day. Oh, boy. It's happening. It's happening now, it says. Really? It is happening, not right now, but that's what the poster says. It's happening right now. Here is from 1 o'clock to 2.30 p.m. The coveted 1 p.m. spot at a festival here. Music with Marley. Beats me, not Bob. I know that. Not Dan. Not even Ziggy. We can't get anybody in here. 2.30 p.m. is the Tiger Kim Taekwondo. It makes sense because it's a third Asian here. So maybe that's part of the, I don't know, not that you have to be Asian and do Taekwondo, but most of the people that teach it, teach it or Asian. I'm not learning Taekwondo from a white guy. I'll tell you that much right now. I'm not paying a white guy to tell me that. Even if he knows it really well, I'd rather be snowed with some mystical Eastern shit, you know what I mean? I'm paying for it here. What are we doing? Snowed, man. Fucking fool me. Con me. What are we doing? Tell me this is about a god somewhere. Yeah, I don't know. Tell me about this connection with the earth and something. Give me something to go on here. Make it mystical. I don't want some just dude from New Jersey going, Hey, I'm Sal. I'm going to teach you how to kick and punch in shit. Sal with the smoke bomb. Yeah, no thanks. Then after the Tiger Kim Taekwondo squad is the Holy Angels dance team. Holy Angels. The Holy Angels. But they come out, but they still come out like a half like a half time in a basketball game. They're like short shorts and have like a whole whole thing. It's the Holy Angel squad, baby. It is fascinating how we just objectify women in sports like that. Still, it's like. Dallas was the craziest. We're a hockey game. Ice girls. I'm looking out my hotel window at the front where like they have this big thing where the guys are coming in because it was opening night. And there's a whole cheerleading squad. And I'm like, it's freezing in there. What the fuck are these girls going to do? And I went to the games. I'm inside watching these chicks dance and scoop ice at the same time. They're like, it's, they're so happy to be the ones that get to do it. That's the sad part, I think. I think it's that they just do it. Yeah, in Dallas, I think people go, Mommy, I want to grow up to be objectified. I think they tell that they're like, well, that's good. I got middle-aged men drool over my round ass. Let's put some, let's put some real blue eyeshadow on you. There you go, sweetheart. Now they're going to objectify you. They got Miss Texas doing it. Miss Texas was out there. That's unbelievable. So then there's the shoreline anthem. They play, which sounds like quick, but they play for an hour and 15 minutes, followed by the DJ dance party with Roy Carmeli. I want to see it. When he's not teaching Taekwondo, Roy Carmeli has been in the fucking lane where he thinks are the hits. He's working the wheels of steel when he's not fucking when he's not those ones and twos, babe. Unbelievable. Roy Carmel. Hey, come on, everybody. Let's dance, huh? Put down your sausage and peppers for just a minute. Everybody not too long. You know, I don't want to go crazy here, but we're ready to dance. This is at the Alpine Country Club. That takes place. Then there's also the ducky drag race. Yeah, I bet that sounds like you know, I bet it's just the rubber duck. It's rubber ducks. Drag races makes you want to go watch it, I guess. That's it because they're moving fast. They have little cartoon drawings of the ducks and they look really happy and it looks kind of fun. By the way, the way they make the cartoon look, it looks like the ducks are really into it, even though they're made of rubber. Are they moving? Is it like rapids or something? No, there's just like a little, they have a little thing set up and you just drop it in. It's real simple. It's kids. It's all little kids doing it. It's all crime rate in this town. Here, property crime is less than one third of the national average. So over over two thirds, less than the national under the national average, then violent crime, murder, rape, robbery, and of course, assault. The Mount Rushmore of crime is about one quarter of the national average. It's about three quarters beneath the national average and nothing goes on here. This that guy saying, is it too safe, maybe I'm getting bored. Yeah, it might be a little boring. Um, oh, let's find out a time when it was not boring at all. Let's talk about some murder here, okay. Wow, we're going to start out hot with this one. Um, October 14th, 1975, okay. Well, let's think about this, big collars, tight pants, big bushes. It's all happening on everybody too. Men women still got some, still got some pretty good music going on. There's some decent music and there's some, a lot of disco coming in and shit like that. This is 70's very mixed bag time here mid 70's. So on this day, a commuter bus stops at the corner of Country Road and Anderson Avenue in Demarest, New Jersey. This is not a well populated area. This is not like in the, in the, like the downtown of the little town or anything. This is kind of off where there's trees and things like that. Um, now it's somewhere between six oh five and six 10 in the evening. There is sundown sundown, a 22 year old woman on the bus that gets off at this stop named Susan Reeve, our EEVE. She was born in 1953. She's from Englewood, New Jersey. She's the oldest of four children of Arthur and Barbara Reeve. Um, now Arthur, her dad was an attorney and used to be a municipal judge. Wow. And Arthur said, "My family was two girls and two boys. Two girls came first, then the two boys." Okay. And that's when they moved to Demarest when they had four kids because this is Burm's quiet. Yep. Yep. Now her, her father said that she, Susan is always the family caretaker. Oh. She's being one of the older sisters. She's the one you can depend on, which, you know, still, that's not real healthy to parentalize your kids and make them do that, but people do it. She was very creative. She would make her own clothes. She liked to do that. Like it wasn't her dad's an attorney. They can afford clothes, but she'd rather make her own. She didn't even have an Instagram account to pay that shit just now for funsies. Just doing it because she likes it, which when's the last time someone on this earth did something just because they enjoyed it. Not to show everybody. Yeah. Imagine that. Yeah. Just enjoy it. So it is a nightmare that we do this and kind of rely on, depend on word of mouth, social media stuff. Yeah. And I don't want to do that. I have zero interest in that at all. I don't want to be, I don't want to show things that I'm doing. Yeah, but you're showing off a lot of what you do on social media. I show more than I fucking want to. That's for sure. I generally don't, like, I mean, I leave the house almost every day. I'm not fucking talking about it. No. Yeah. I get it. I mean, I agree. My last Instagram post was like a year ago. I just don't. I'm not. Like every six months, I'll post, like, I'm just not, I don't care. I'm not into the whole thing. I don't give a shit. This is enough of being out for me. Yeah. You think that's about the most I can do anymore. This camera is about the only camera I want to have. After this, I don't like cameras anymore. I'm on camera enough. Leave me alone. Yeah. That's my general how I feel. That's just because we're not like either of us are like, hey, look at me. Yeah. Look at this. That's just not how we are. Yeah. So we're more like, we'll be over here, you know, at least I am. There's also people that just fucking crave it, but that's a different story. Yeah. They're missing something and they do crave it. So one person who knew Susan says, Susan was a delightful girl. A very attractive young lady and likable person. Everybody liked her very much. She was Susan sunshine. Oh, that's what we call her. That's what we call her. She went to Holland's college in Virginia, majored in art. One of her professors said, Susan was a good student who loved art and made good use of her time at Holland's and also said she was always smiling and always very pleasant. A creative type. A creative. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So she's usually fun and kind of loose, you know, not loose like, you know, like that, but interesting personality. Yeah. Yeah. Her one of her close friends here from high school said, Sue was joyful, creative, self-assured and just plain fun to be around. Yeah. She ended up working as a receptionist at an advertising agency in Manhattan, which is what most people do after art school because, you know, there's not a lot of jobs in the art industry. And this was the stop that she used every day. She'd get off the commuter bus from Manhattan and stop. Her parents' house is just a short walk up Anderson Avenue. Oh. So it's right there, you know, quarter mile from the house, maybe. So she had graduated in May of '75 from college. So I mean, she just graduated. We were talking about October '75. Right now. Yeah. So she graduated in May and spent a month traveling in Europe and then started her first job as a receptionist at the Gray Advertising Agency in Manhattan. So she's like Madison Avenue doing ad men. She is. They should have life. She's crap. Not bad. She's doing it. And her dad being a judge too and an lawyer probably, he's probably got connections, which also helps, which you have to use everything you can use. But back then to you, if you're a college educated young lady who looks, you know, presentable and everything, you're not, you know, you can contrast to going in office or whatever, you can get hired as a receptionist. It was. Yeah. If you could type, you could get a job as a receptionist back then, which was something that anybody could do. Yeah. Which is also traveling abroad then showed interest in being a go getter and being worldly. So that helps too. Yeah. Helps too. She was engaged to a man named Daniel Olmsted, who was a Columbia graduate student. Dang. Doing well. Well, the fucker. Yeah. One family member said she was looking forward to being married had just become engaged to be married right after college. So I mean, you can't get your life lining up better. Went to college, goes to Europe, gets a job, she's married to a Columbia graduate student. So I mean, you're going to be married to him and that's going to be a thing. So not for 1975, she is, everything's fallen in a place perfect for. For ops. She lived at home with her parents and took the commuter bus every day. One investigator later said it was convenient. The bus stop was just a short walk from her house. Her parents said she was always careful, too. Her dad said she was not the type of girl who would irresponsibly stop off for a drink someplace without telling her parents about it at the very least. She's like 23 years old. Yeah. That's irresponsible. I want to go have a gin because I'm irresponsible and tell nobody. I should tell my parents when I'm 23 before I go out for a drink. Yeah. Does she live at home still? Yeah. She lives at home with her parents. Just letting them know, don't, don't expect me right now. I'm having gin. Yeah. Don't set a place for dinner. I'm drinking my dinner tonight. No. No, suck on some whiskey. Take that. See you around. Doesn't happen though. So she gets off the bus. The driver remembers her getting off the bus. Another passenger remembers her, too. She's an attractive young lady. People tend to remember them and where they, what they do. They don't blend very well, attractive young ladies. A few minutes later. I've left a place and people probably didn't have a bug and clueless either. They don't care. When a guy leaves, unless you're like six, seven, 350 pounds, no one notices when you leave anywhere if you're a guy or as an attractive young woman, every guy's like, Hey, look at her. There she goes. Hey, there she goes. Yeah. There she goes. And they watched her walk away. Yeah. They all say the same. I hate to see you go. That thing. Yeah. That's it. The driver, his usual route at that time saw a young woman matching her description, standing beside a parked vehicle talking with someone. Okay. Vehicle is a station wagon. Something about it looked wrong to him, apparently. He just thought that the exchange looked weird, but too hot for that car. Something. Yeah. He's got some dude in the station wagon. Right. Just wait too hot. Whatever. She said, don't stand next to a truckster. Yeah. It was just the look on her face or something that was an odd exchange. But this guy, you know, number one, what business of it is it of yours, that might be your ex-boyfriend or uncle. You have no idea what the hell the conversation's about. And second, he was late to pick his kid up from school or a school event and after school thing. So he was like, I'm not going to stop and go, Hey, what are you two doing? Why is this weird? Yeah. Just walk up to a random conversation in New Jersey and be like, there's everything all right here. They'd be like, get the fuck away from me. Mind your own fucking business. Strongly you. Yeah. Two of you don't match. Yeah. You don't go. And that's not even what he said. So that's, that's not the, the guy is not like an old man or an old weirdo or it's not like that. It was just they looked to be. Just tense of some sort. Something. Yeah. He came back a few minutes later and she was gone and so was the car. So he was like, I don't know. Whatever. I guess they're fine. Susan never made it home as the problem. She never comes home that night. October the 28th, 1975 is when they find Susan. They find her in a state park across the New York line. It's horrible too. She'd been pretty brutally murdered. She'd been raped and strangled with a pair of pantyhose, which is horrifying, absolutely horrifying. Now when police figure this out, they put their notes together and say, that's weird because right before this Susan disappeared, another woman named Susan disappeared as well. Right before that, from the next town over from Demarest. - Is there ever been a serial killer that only killed women with the same name? - That's the fucking weird part. - Oh boy. - That has to be a coincidence, right? But at the same time, that can't be a coincidence. Like what the fuck, and newspapers started calling them the Susan Strangulations. - Oh, so the Susie slaughterer, but all right. - Yeah, Susan Stridler, more professional, you know. - Yeah, that's fun. - Yeah, that's fun. So now let's talk about a guy here, a young man. A man named Robert Ronald Reldon, R-E-L-D-A-N. - Robert Ronald. - Robert Ronald Reldon. Triple R, goes by Bobby. So Bobby Reldon, now I think remember the name spelling. He's born June 2nd, 1940, he's from Brooklyn. Now Reldon is not his birth name. - Oh. - Reldon is the name he changed it to. - Pretty as early as he could. His actual birth name is Nadler. - N-A-D-L-E-R. - He's turned it around? - He flipped his fucking name and did that. He's Reldon instead of Nadler. - Okay. - That's the strange thing. - Stupid. - Very. His parents are William and Marie Nadler, and he's their first child. They have two children. They have him, and then they have in 1943, a daughter named Susan, okay. Now there's a documentary by the way later on called Born to Kill. I'm just mentioning that now that some quotes came out of. This quote came from there is that his younger sister then contracted polio as a child. - Oh fuck. - Which would happen so often back then. And a lot of the parents' attention go to the sick child obviously, and that's there. There's so many different psychological things where the first thing a shrink will ask you, is did you have a sick sibling or something? Because that's what this does, you know what I mean? There's a bunch of different. This affects people in a certain way. Now William and Marie ran a luncheonette called the Sweet Sue Coffee Shop, which is right by Fifth Avenue in Manhattan. - Early births? - Yeah. - Yeah, a luncheonette place. It's a lunch counter type of joint. And it was busy, it made money. It's in a very good location, so that helps. And both parents work there. They also, they don't think that Bobby had much a parental supervision, because his mother and father worked all hours in this restaurant. These family restaurants like this, basically. The kids either, I remember working for these like when I was a teenager and their kids would come in after school and be doing homework at the unoccupied tables and then they'd be helping out, 'cause it was either that or they're sitting home by themselves. - Right. - No, 'cause I mean, obviously, when does a restaurant make money, be the lunch or dinner or whatever. So, in 1951 when Robert was 11, the family moved to Fort Lee, New Jersey from New York. So, Fort Lee, you can kind of see Manhattan from there. It's right across the Hudson. Within a few years, now Fort Lee now is all big apartment buildings, big higher rises and ship. But it wasn't like that back in 1951. Later, they lived in Closter, a C-L-O-S-T-R, which is a few towns north of there. Now, the big influence in Bobby's life is his aunt Lillian. That's his mother sister. - Lillian? - Lillian, yes. Aunt Lillian, it's his mother sister. Now, she was an aspiring Broadway actress when she was younger. That was what she was trying to do, was break into Broadway. - Sure. - But she needed a day job. So, she waited tables at the sweet zoo. One of their regular customers was quite a much older man named Ferris Booth, known as Colonel Booth. Okay, now, his father was a financier and an early investor in IBM and hot point and he got fucking insanely rich. - Filthy rich. - Filthy rich and Ferris inherited this giant fortune and fell in love with the waitress from the sweet zoo. - Yeah. - Lillian. - Yeah. - So Ferris notices her, they get together. - That was a thing for a while, right? Where you would-- - Fuck yeah. - You'd be a regular and flirt so hard that you might get the girl, get the server. - You might get the server, but it helps if you have millions and millions of dollars. - That does help. - Helps, it's one of those things. - Yeah. - If you're just stopping off in between shifts, you know, at the welding, whatever the fucker, at the mill, you might be harder, but if you come in there every day, talking about, well, just got back from the, from the islands and, oh boy, that was something as beautiful down there as I've been here. - That was exhausted from that long, private flight. - Oh boy, I'll tell you what, my ties really take a toll on you. - Yeah, I had to get up from my seat to go get all of my own mixed drinks. - Didn't care for that much. - There was no flight attendant. It just me and the pilot, very exhausted. My grandfather's dad, that's how he got his wife was, that she was a server and he used to hide, he go in every morning and hide dollars under each piece of shit on the table. And then when he left, she would be busing the table and collecting his love. (laughing) - His monetary love. - That's like both cute and degrading at the same time. - Yeah, it's like, I can't tell what, I wouldn't be able to tell what he was going for. Is he trying to degrade me or is he trying to? - When this flights up, right, there might be something in it for you. - Yeah, or it's like also, hey, poor bitch, go on a scavenger hunt for your money. It's like, or it's like, hey, notice me, I'm different. I do cute things. Like I can't tell what's-- - I'm poor, key and funny. - Yeah, and I hope it's like a lot. I hope it's not just like a couple of quarters here, a couple of quarters there. - Hit a dime under a little jukebox thing in the table - Some of this shit better be in fucking pay for money. - Oh, it hopes so. Oh man, so this is like in the mid-40s. This is just post-war. They're like 46. - Wow. - They get together, they're married, heard him and Lillian and they're happy for about 10 years. And then Lillian gets the luckiest of a fuck, no, the money never runs out. The money just grows and grows and grows. - What? - In 1956, Ferris dies suddenly from a stroke. - And it's hers. - Every fucking dime is hers. - No more watching that. - Fuck, no. She was about 40 years old. She inherited, and this is in 50 million dollars. - That's the richest person in the world, right? - No, no, no, there's much richer people, but she's got very wealthy. I mean, very wealthy, disgusting. - Never, you're not gonna run out of money. - No, that's generational as fuck. - And she's also a very good investor and learned how to do a great partnership. By 2007, she was worth almost 250 million dollars. And this is after giving hundreds of millions of dollars to charities and to fucking everything else. This lady had a fortune, she was low. - Wow. - So that's your aunt. She's gonna be your favorite aunt, I bet. You're gonna get good Christmas presents in her. - I mean, I might do everything all day just to make Lillian smile. Does she, leaves raked anything? Just, I will go over there. - I'm gonna take a break from work, just to help her out. - Tell her about a new joke. Just to do it. - Just try to make her smile. - So she gave away all this money to hospitals, churches, a retirement home for actors, charities, just giving money away. She had no children, no children. - She's amazing. - He's the closest thing to a child she has. She has her nieces and nephews and that's who she lavishes her money and attention on. And by a wide margin of apparently, Bobby is her favorite niece or nephew. Just loves him. That's the favorite, always. She will pay for everything for him all the time. - Really. - In terms of if he needs, if he has to go on a trip, if he needs a lawyer, which he will be plenty of those, every lawyer we talk about, always antlily and paid for it in full. They would visit her estate and as she had never housed she had an estate in Alpine, New Jersey, which is-- - What's the name? - Yeah. Alpine, New Jersey is extremely wealthy. - Yeah. - Even now, that's where Tracy Morgan moved after the Walmart truck hit him. (laughs) And the comedians and cars of coffee goes, "Truck said Walmart on it." That's what he was showing the house, like that's-- - Yeah, what do you say? It's said Walmart, not what he's saying, Radio Shack or something, shit. - I can't remember when that starts to city or something, shit, yeah, I remember. - He has a joke about it that's pretty fucking good. "Truck said Walmart, not Joe's Crab Shack or something, shit." - Yeah, you see the fuck out of that. Alpine's like where Chris Rock lives where very wealthy people live in Alpine. Slater on someone said, "She would wear flashy jewelry, she was ostentatious about her wealth." - She was having fun. - Yeah, she's so wealthy, she's like doing like the old timey, like Shah Jah Gabor. thing with the diamonds and fur wrap and all that kind of shit. That's what she was about. One person said that Bobby himself lived a playboy's life because he's wealthy ant financed horseback riding lessons and skiing trips and just doing it. So yeah, all the things that rich kids got to do, he got to do too. Even though he grew up in a normal environment with a normal family in a normal house, he got to live like a rich person every so often, which is pretty goddamn cool. But also somebody else said that he seemed like he thought he was entitled to more than he was getting. Oh, hey, she's still cheap with me though, even though she sent me to Europe. Orssets. Yeah, sent me to us on a skiing trip in Vales. She's being a little, she could have put me up in the four seasons, not the Ritz. I like the four seasons better. You know, they, I don't know what the four seasons does, but I'm sure they do something specific and fancy. And he's riding horses that are probably well taken care of well manner. I was riding flea bag, bag of bones, scared to death. We had family numbers bucked off these things that were never the same ever again. He's like doing a mate. He's probably got all the equipment helmets and shit. If we were near a horse, my family who said, don't touch that fucking horse. You're going to do something to it. It's going to cost us money. Get away from that fucking horse. It's, I don't we've never went near a horse. It's going to bite you or kick you. We're going to have to go to hospital or you're going to fuck it up and they're going to charge us like, just don't just stay away from the horse. You're going to break it. You're going to break it's leg. Put it down and then it's on me. If I saw a horse, there was a cop on top of it. That was the horses I ever saw. That's what. Now he's a juvenile delinquent also. All right. And I use this term because it's the mid 50s and they love talking about juvenile delinquence back then. There's all sorts of movies about like, you know, teen thugs and dudes with leather jackets and grease with a switchblade. Yeah. Like to picture the thunderbirds from grease, but not the tea birds, but actually, you know, talk. Anything Elvis was trying to portray when he was 30. Some of that. Yeah. One of those there. Well, no, they weren't trying to be black. These kids. They were. No. Yeah. No. Elvis was just stealing from different people. But he was doing like jailhouse rock where he was like, in jail and stripes and he was in there because he's a juvenile delinquent. You're 30, sir. He's a juvenile. Yeah. All the teen girls were swarming around him. So when he's 16 years old, January 11th, 1957, he goes into New York into the city there. grabs a woman by the throat outside her apartment building and steals her purse. For no reason. He's got plenty of loot. Yeah. We're talking base level. This is the most base level of dirty street crime. You can get literally stealing a purse from a woman after grabbing her by the throat is the lowest of the look. Like, there's a lot of street criminals are like, I would never steal a purse from a woman. That's fucking, that's beneath me. And what's in that purse? It's not going to have a lot of money. No. This is just a person who likes to be violent and steal things and seems like. So two months later, he pleads guilty because he gets busted a woman looked right in his face and told on him. He pleads guilty and he's classified as a juvenile delinquent. He is adjudicated, a juvenile delinquent, sir. Smack the cigarettes out of his shirt sleet. It's just pop that out of there. Mess up your duck bill in the front. How do you like that now? Tussled your duct tape, motherfucker. Now what? Yeah. So he's classified. He's put on, quote, indefinite probation. So for a while, we'll see. Maybe till maybe till he's 18 because he's 16 at the time, October, 1957, same year, he commits a series of residential burglaries, break ins. A New Jersey judge again puts him on indefinite probation, which he's already on indefinite probation. So now we're on double secret indefinite probation. But does that have an institution of some sort? Well, he is, there is a mandate here for him to get a psychiatric examination at Menlo Park Hospital as well. So I'm not sure he's okay if he's doing this kind of thing. If he's this much of a delinquent, maybe it's a mental problem. Absolutely. Now the doctors found a narcissistic character disorder and a quote strong, repressed hostility toward women. Wild. I could have told you that by choking and stealing a purse from one. There has to be something there for that. But what the fuck is going on? That's the thing. Yeah. Otherwise, you choose a guy to roll. Yeah. You've got a lady that's a goddamn angel in your corner. That's the thing. Well, and that's the problem too is she paid for that lawyer. She pays for this lawyer. She's paying for all the lawyers. His senior picture in high school. This is because he's still in high school when all this is going on. Right. And his senior picture in high school, his yearbook, Class of 1958, here. There's a picture of him and underneath it says, it says Bob sports that collegiate look. What is that? I don't know. It goes to college. A flat top and a sweater. I'm not sure. In the 50s, what does that mean? The blurb said that he's an amateur pilot who plans a stint in the air force and says that he has a quote acid sense of humor. What's that meant? He's just, you know, he had like a dark kind of a what happens, baby. He graduated 91st out of 128. So not a bottom half, not bad, but I can't I can't snipe at that. Probably. Yeah. Um, then in July 58, right after he graduates, he's arrested for stealing five cars. Not at the same time, obviously. Yeah. Well, that's very collegiate. He needed a one for each day of the week at school there. He was sent to a state hospital for observation where psychiatrists diagnosed him. I said it like a Ricky Ricardo said it. A piece of key interest. That's me. I'm looking for a piece of key interest. Diagnosed sociopathic personality disturbance with anti-social reaction. They are, these are early descriptions of a very dangerous kid. Very dead 18. Yeah. Very dangerous. Antisocial. What was the other one I'm going to go? Anti-social sociopathic personality. Social path. Yeah, that's not good. No, these are all bad things. And it's one thing if he's just stealing cars because so far he's done the one kind of violent act on the woman and the rest of it's been burglary's stealing as the thing. Yeah. On Christmas Eve, 1958, the hospital releases him into his parents' custody. You can't make the poor kid stay for Christmas. He's got no presence to open here. Come on. He's crazy now. Oh, forget about it. The birth of the newborn king. The problems will arise. You don't know. You play Ave Maria. He'll go crazy. We gotta send him up. So 1959, he's convicted of more auto theft. All right. And he gets more probation. All right. Then he was arrested for auto theft in New York. Seems like a pattern here. He likes to steal cars. He's realized that's what he's good at. What's he doing with the cars? That was the other part. Back then it was a car thieving was a totally different thing because parts were worth so much back then. That's what he was doing. He was parting off the car. You can part it. And sometimes they would just because there's no VIN numbers or anything like that. They would repain in a different color. Some sell it. Somebody would register it. That's the way it was back then. They didn't have all the things in place. Because they didn't have VINs till the late 60s. Was it? I don't know. I don't know when they put VINs on cars. I've, I mean, I've got a 58. It's got a VIN. But I don't know if that was, I don't, I'm, I'm unversed in VINs. Original VIN. I know they didn't always have VINs. Yes. Perhaps somebody stapled up. It got one. I got a plate. That may be absolutely. So anyway, he violates his probation as what he's doing. So he finally gets a sentence. You, sir, young man, juvenile delinquent sociopathic anti-social ass hall may fuck off three years at great meadows, which is a reformatory in New York. Sounds terrible too. Doesn't sound nice. Not an adult prison, still under 21. So it's still kept in that whole thing here. Yeah. He is parold in January 62 when he's 21 years old. Oh boy. So they can either pray. I think transfer him to an adult prison or let him go. Give him another chance. Yeah. Now a psychologist later interviewed explained him like this quote, there's no real gain in person matching from a monetary perspective. But there's a lot of psychological gain for a guy like him. Right. So yeah, it's not about the he's not a crackhead who needs $3 in there. So he could that's not what he's after. He's just he likes to steal. He likes it. Causing the the woman or person to feel unsafe first and then she has all this inconvenience of getting all that shit back. Absolutely. And I think also it's some people it's like in goodfells when he said he actually liked to steal about Jimmy Conway. He actually enjoyed it like he liked it. He thought it was fun. So yeah. And by the from the time he's in high school kind of from now on out most of his crimes are going to be directed about toward women essentially. He stole a bunch of cars and shit like that. Probably realize that was easy to get caught from. Maybe switches it up. Now when he gets out of prison as a nice coming home present. Like he's coming home from college or something. His Zant Lilian buys him a brand new Volkswagen convertible. Now you don't have to steal. Now you don't have to steal it. Here's your own car. It's green Volkswagen convertible brand new. So the time is, this is like what, 62, 62. So this is a hot shit little car at the time for a car. It's a Volkswagen, it's probably a bug. That's all they do. Yeah. That was a convertible, I think. Totally. Yeah. Unless it was a carman gear. Could have been a carman gear. Oh my God. That's so spoiled. I'm assuming by his behavior, it's a bug because guys like him drive bugs and see Randall Woodfield, Ted Bundy, more, the bug is John Douglas in the, in the 900 book. Yeah. Did a whole chapter, not a whole chapter, but a whole section talking about the serial killers and Volkswagen bugs and how they for some reason, fucking love the allure of that car is that it's very easy to fix it. If you break it. You're like out doing some danger of shit or doing something you don't want to get caught for. If you have a car that, if it goes, something goes wrong and you can't fix it, then you're fucked. That's, yeah, but that's not, it's not practical. That's not the point. Is the practical, there's something in their psychology, something in psychology attracts people to certain cars. And there's no way that all of them are just like, I can repair this on the fly. None of them knew what the fuck they were running. Randall Woodfield couldn't repair shit. Yeah, that's a good point. Neither could Ted Bundy, neither they didn't know what they were doing. If you take somebody with you, I mean, they are literally on your lap drive car. They can't get away. Yeah. And also, it seems like this, it's like, psychologically wise, at least John Douglas was saying that also it might seem like a kind of a harmless car. Sure. It's very much associated with college students or professors or college type things. It sounds unthreatening too when it drives by. Yes. It blends in. It does sound unthreatened. Yeah, beep the horn on that fucking thing. It's not exactly, hey, get out of my way. It's more like, hey, how's it going? That's the beep there. Hey, how are you? It sounds like it's working so hard just to stay alive. That's it. So at this point, he's clean cut six foot two, very well spoken, has a brand new car. You wouldn't look at this guy and go, I bet he's on parole. Right. So February 25th, 1962, he's been out for a goddamn month, okay? He and an accomplice of his break into a house in Fort Lee, New Jersey at 320 in the morning. The owners were away in Spain, but inside was a 14 year old girl, her older sister, who I believe was watching the children and the and the older sisters, three year old son. So this 14 year old girl, her older sister and her nephew are all in the house. He, Bobby and his accomplice come in with their faces covered. One had a handkerchief over his head. The other, this is the dumbest disguise ever, had a bath towel with a slit cut to see through. That was like tied around his head? Like a ghost. Yeah. Basically like a ghost costume. He put a towel over his head and put a, not great. That was Bobby, by the way, the towel guy. This is how bright he is. They ransacked the house looking for money and jewelry. Then Bobby took the 14 year old up to her bedroom, tied her up and didn't rape her, but started groping her and then started striking her several times in the head with an iron rod. Oh my God. Maybe because she wasn't receptive to his advances as a 14 year old girl. So much so that the accomplice heard what was going on and came in and pulled him off of her and said, what are you doing? Leave her the fuck alone. That's not why we're in here. We're here. We're here to beat up teenage girl up. This is great. Raper. This is crazy. So he's Bobby stopped and they left. Now that accomplice will never be identified, actually, but Bobby will. Then after the Fort Lee break in, he feels like there might be some heat for that, understandably. So he leaves and goes to Florida. Oh, Florida by way of Connecticut and Missouri in Missouri, yeah, in Missouri, he rolls in a small college for a minute. He'd real weird. On his way to Florida, he settled down for a sec. We don't know if he intended to end up in Florida or if it doesn't sound like it, sound like he was looking for a place, his Aunt Lillian pace for his trip pace for him to go to college, pays for all this shit. In November 1962, he shows up in South Florida, that's where he ends up. Now Miami Beach Police in November 30, 1962 arrest him for impersonating a police officer. Why would you do that? Think about that. That's interesting. Yeah. Yeah, but also women. Think about who used to do that. People who would pretend to be cops and pretend to be authority figures like that. And when Bundy was arrested, he had police badges on him, right? There was, that's shit. He would approach the women and say, a lot of times he was a cop. The girl got away in the mall that had the new Camaro. He said, "Someone broke in your car. I'm a police officer. You come over here with me and all that. That's what he did. Right. Yeah. And then he had come from shit too. Yeah. Even the mob did that with guys. They had guys be fake cops and go in. Right. It's a very common thing because people automatically, they're not fighting usually. They're not there. They think, "Oh shit. I better, you know, let this person do what they want." Yeah. It's a, we got blind trust for them. Generally. Yeah. So, yeah. Now. That's a little bit. Yeah. So, now, a records check when he's arrested doesn't show anything because all of his earlier crimes had been in the juvenile system in another state, which isn't going to come up and fly it at all. Right. And 60s. And it's the 60s. It says 1962 for Christ's sake. Now, if they run it through the database, there's no database. You have to call. This is wallpaper. So, and all the other crimes haven't been solved yet. Right. So, to Dade County, he was just a real well-spoken, clean cut first time offender. Yeah. Just who knows? So, he pleads out five days later and gets a 90 day suspended sentence. A month after that, he's back in court in Dade County for breaking and entering. Fuck. And he pleads guilty and gets two years probation. Okay. Now, he's on indefinite probation of one place in two years probation over here. As an adult. As an adult. So, spring of '63 heads back to New Jersey. Back to Jersey. Already fucked out. All fucked out. Yeah. He's already gotten busted there a few times. Yeah. In January, or I'm sorry, July 27, 1963, the cluster police, the town he lives in, as parents live in, arrest him for carrying a concealed handgun in a car. Oh, shit. He's parents post bail. Within a month, though, the North Arlington Police Department arrests him for breaking into a home and assaulting the woman who lived there with the tire iron. He makes bail again. August of '63, they round him up and put him in a lineup for that Fort Lee home invasion where he tried to rape and beat a 14 year old. Apparently. He took the towel off at some point. It kept falling off because it's a towel and it has no way to stay on and he's a moron. So no, he'd move, grab her, it would fall off. He'd try to put it back. That's ridiculous. The guy's a moron. Nice. So, she saw his face and the girl picks him out of a lineup. Wow. As the guy. This is bad. December of '63, he goes to, I call this the towel head robbery trial. He goes to here. It's his first. He had a towel on his fucking head. He's a white guy with a towel on his head. He's crazy. He's got a towel on his fucking head. It's the only time you can actually use that and it's fine. So I'm taking advantage of it. Towel head robbery. Nothing at all. Just a clean cut young man with a towel on his head. Jesus Christ. His, this is his first adult criminal trial. He made it. Everything else has been in the juvenile circumstances. Under 21, he's finally stepping up here. His lawyer, Frank Luciana, was a prominent and very expensive defense attorney. Who do you think paid for that? Very well paid for. Yeah. Yeah. He had no job. He had no money. Antlinian paid for it all. The state puts on three witnesses. The girl, her sister and somebody else who saw her. So, basically, eyewitnesses who saw him break in there. The victims. Yeah. But there is no physical evidence at all of this obviously back then. There's no DNA or bears or anything. The girl admits on cross examination that the police had showed her Bobby's photo before the line up. They tried to be cute. Make sure they got the right guy. This girl is honest and didn't want to purge herself, said that and it ends up a hung jury. Shit. Does not get convicted. No, he's out and about for now. Yeah, that's all. We presented all evidence we have and it's not so we, if we, if we keep trying it, we're just going to keep getting the same shit. Yep. So, January 3rd, 1964, here, he's got some problems. Now between, well, January 3rd, we'll go back a little bit to 63 between June 4th and July 23rd, 1963, New York City detectives were working a pattern of robberies. Okay, one was in the Bronx, five were in apartment buildings on the Upper West side of Manhattan. This is the same neighborhood, by the way, as his grab by the throat perched, per snatching in 1957, which in the late 50s in New York, there was tons of street crime. It was just crazy. So yeah, so that doesn't mean anything. Where there's people. That's the stuff that's going to happen. That's what happens. Exactly. The method here was the same of all of these. It was a neatly dressed, muscular, young man about six feet tall, give or take, who would follow a woman alone into an elevator, which is terrifying. If we're a lot of hotels, if ever there's like just a woman in an elevator and it's like past 10 o'clock at night, like, I'll like, I won't even do it because I don't want to make her uncomfortable. I know she's going to be uncomfortable. I know. And I don't blame her. I'm a big guy and shit, like I come across real nice and everything, but I don't want to make this person feel like, oh, God, I'm going to be attacked in an elevator. Even though there's cameras and it doesn't matter. The lean against the corner of the elevator, look at my phone, lean on the shoulder and just text away. Oh, dude. I don't look at that. I just open apps. I'm not doing shit. I just don't want to pay attention to this person at all. I feel so, I feel very uncomfortable, but if I see that, like, as you can see, like, they're like, oh, God, it's a guy and I'm by myself and all that. So I'll just be like, oh, no, I'm going up or whatever, like, I'll, you know, I feel like they feel better about that. I don't want to be creepy. So even though creepy, just writing an elevator, but still it's, yeah, I get it. I get it. That is got to be uncomfortable. A person that's vulnerable, the scariest, I've seen too many movies where they hit the stop and stand in front of it and hurt people. That's what I mean. That's the opposite corner. All the way over there. The other thing I'll do, like, I'm the one worried about this here. If we're in, like, the hallway, too, where it's empty in these big hotel hallways, I'll be on the far other end, yeah, just looking at my phone and make just a real quick up and down. Like, okay, I see you. I'm not acting weird. Like, I'm going to jump on here. I'm be over here. You can be over there. I don't have any interest. How many, how many shows have we done where the housekeeper is a victim? But by those girls, and I feel like they're judging me, like, they think I'm going to hurt. Absolutely. I try to be real friendly. I'm not creepy. I don't want to feel like I'm trapping them in a room. Yeah. So anyway, this is what they, this is what happened with these elevator robberies. He would let her pick her floor first. Oh, you, please, you go first, obviously. And then he would pick a lower floor than whatever floor they were going to. Once the door is closed, he would grab her by the throat. And he would take her purse and any jewelry he could snatch off her wall. He had her by the throat. At his floor, he stepped out and let the doors close behind him. Then she would down the stairs. Then she would go up to her floor alone. So they were going up. He'd pick a lower one and then let her go up. One of the victims said he had the look of someone who could kill without remorse. Which even if you couldn't, that's what you're trying to portray. If you're trying to rob somebody, if you, yeah, I just do want somebody that wouldn't. You want to get that across. So detectives get a recent booking photo of Bobby from the Bergen County Sheriff's office and put it in a photo array. All five women picked him out. All five. Wow. Yeah. So did the Bronx victim who was a vending machine worker robbed at gunpoint while doing his knights collections. So this was actually for money. That's a lot of money a vending machine. You can get a bunch out of that. So he did this robbed a man at gunpoint. Woman, he grabs by the throw to man. He brings a gun. Right. That's a lot about a psychology there. January 3rd, '64 is when he's arrested and charged with all six robberies. He admits it. He tells police he needed the money. Wow. That's it. Which is weird because his parents and aunt give him money. So it makes no sense. It doesn't need the money. And he pleads. He pleads guilty to one of the elevator robberies and the Bronx robbery and four other elevator cases are dismissed. They're just going to roll them into one. He got two five year terms at great meadows. So five years, fuck off, to run concurrently. So five years. So he's doing five years in a children's home in his 20s. Yeah. It's not there. I'm sure there's a non children's part of it. Sure. Yeah. Now in New Jersey, his lawyer arranged another plea bargain. Bobby would plead guilty to the cluster gun charge and the North Arlington burglary. And the tire iron assault would be dismissed. So the only one left is that Fort Lee home invasion, which was the hung jury. Wow. So this is a lot of serious crimes we're talking about here that he is. But they're cleaning them all up and getting rid of them and. Yep. But he's rolled it all into a five year sentence. All of these robberies, this is what having a very good paid lawyer gets you. And that's what he has. He'll end up serving just over half of that, by the way. Now a New York parole evaluation warned it might be essential to consider this case carefully. In our opinion, he will be a poor risk for parole. He has considerable potential toward criminal acts, particularly assaults. Right. They nailed him. Nailed him. Good. Yeah. In 1964, the plea deal is also really, I mean, think about all the things that were dismissed. Elevator assaults, tire iron, a tall is bad shit gets dismissed. That does not on his record. So when you look at his record, it looks like he had one robbery, one assault, it doesn't look like he's this big pattern, you know, awful person. So it's interesting, but they were trying to basically just clean it up and get this guy figured out every parole board later would look at his convictions and not see all that he did is the problem. They would only see the things that he was convicted for. Yeah. So it's interesting here. Now, I don't do that now, right? So if it gets dismissed because it's all digital and computerized, they know what you've done and what's been dismissed. But can still on future judgment hold you accountable because you're fucking dangerous. Absolutely. Here, I think it was much more sometimes you'd get a whole case or, you know, a whole picture of someone. Sometimes you didn't. Yeah. Because I'm sure that paperwork, if it's dismissed, just out the window of the car gets dismissed. You're dealing with paperwork, you're dealing with, at the time, you know, 90% alcoholism on the police force and all this. There's a bunch of detectives that drink hard and, you know, it's like it's just who knows what the hell people kept for paperwork. And paperwork just based on sheer mass and storage, if you're keeping track of the ones that are dismissed, that's got to be a warehouse of ungodly proportion. That's a huge place. It's crazy. So he's paroled in September of 1966. He moves back in with his parents and gets a job at a clerk at a convenience store. It has been a full life for this man. It's in 1996. Wow. 66. 26 years. 26 years. Yeah. That's amazing. Then he starts hooking up with women. He starts finding girlfriends. This is the first time this has really come up. But within a few months of getting out, he's got three women. He's kind of going in between in his orbit because as you can imagine, he's not real. He's not honest in relationships, either. He doesn't treat women well at all. One is a woman named Beverly Moles, who's 21 years old and is a bank teller and Fort Lee, who lived with her parents and cluster, so near him, near him. She walked into the food store to buy some groceries in October, 66, about a month after his parole and they hit it off right away. The guy who works here just got on parole. He seems wonderful. Yeah. The second woman's a woman named Renee Ross, who was living with her mother in T-neck, New Jersey. She had a young daughter and was in the middle of a divorce. When the third woman he's seeing is a 27 year old woman named Judy Rosenberg. Now he met Judy in late February, 67 when Bobby took, Bobby's parents took him and everyone else in the family to a, to Florida for a family vacation. The trip was approved by his parole officer, so it was all above board. Judy happened to be staying at the same hotel with her then four year old son, Eddie. That's how they met. She later said she fell in love with Bobby almost the moment she saw him by the pool. And he's known as a handsome guy, six, two, which is very tall back then, muscular, strapping young man. She's into him. Problem is she's also married. Yeah. She's married to a guy who's involved in organized crime. Yeah, this is getting way more than you thought, right? Okay. Her husband, her husband, yeah, Alan Rosenberg was back in Chicago. He was under indictment and not allowed to leave Illinois, which is why Judy's in Florida without him. And she didn't mind it because he's an abusive lunatic anyway, so she didn't mind leaving without it. Sure. So they all get home from vacation and Judy ends up calling Bobby and with a pretty crazy story she's got, not just, hey, how's it going? Everything is, hey, my husband has been found dead in the trunk of his car with seven gunshot wounds. What? Yeah. My husband is no more. With this fucking wick where he shouldn't have been or something. Yeah, my husband got him got a mob hit on him, essentially, um, she was terrified because she had, you know, because he had organized crime ties and she didn't know if they were going to kill her, don't dress as one day. Yeah, you never know. So she begged Bobby, please come to Chicago, please come to Chicago. So he went, no, he went to see her, which was not approved by his parole officer. He never asked. He skipped work to go for a few days. And so they fired him at his job, which he has to have for parole. So that's not great. Yeah. April of 1967, he's living on unemployment, um, and, and $50 a month from a worker's compensation claim. Ooh. And Antlillian would give him like $1,000 every Christmas, which is a lot of money back then. And so he would live off of that for a while too. Okay. So he had that. Now every gift from his aunt, by the way, would make him resentful that it wasn't a bigger gift. He wouldn't say, wow, $1,000. That's great. That's really generous. He would say she could afford 10. Why wouldn't she give me 10? She can afford 50. Why would she give me a thousand? That's what he thinks. Oh, yeah. He just, he's a, he's a mindset. That is. Yeah. He's not the only one getting things from her either. She's probably supporting a lot of people. Yeah. I don't know about supporting, but she's definitely helping to get things and doing things for people and whatever. I mean, she can afford it, but also it's her money. So she doesn't have to. Right. Exactly. So April 27th, 1967, Tneck, New Jersey, a housewife named Bernice Kaplan comes home at about 3/10 in the afternoon. She'd been dropping off Passover cookies for her mother in Hackensack. Nice. She put the kettle on for tea and started gathering laundry. A little after three. Now, Bobby, who had left Rene Ross' house a few streets away. That is girlfriend number two, I believe. Yeah. I think that's two. Left her house after that, a few, like we said, right around there. They believe that Bobby's root home crossed Bernice Kaplan's root home. He rings the doorbell. Now, there's a small window. She looks out and she sees of well groomed young man in a light colored windbreaker and checkered pants holding dry cleaning still wrapped in plastic. So he does not look like a threat. Number one, it looks like a guy who's delivering dry cleaning is what he looks like. So to rich people in a nice area. So behind the, she looked behind the curve, looked behind him and there's a new-ish looking green convertible with a white top out there. So he doesn't look like some guy wandered out of the woods or anything. He pulled up in a nice car. So she opened the door crack. And he says, "Bratley?" This is Brantley. And he's holding the things. And she said, "Do you have the wrong house?" And he smiled and he said, "Bratley, it's not Brantley." He thought it was. And he's friendly. So he said, "Oh, man, really? This is the address I have for this. I don't know what to do now because this is what my boss gave me. I'm supposed to drop this off, but I have the wrong house. Do you mind if I can I use your phone real quick to call my boss because I got to get the right address. And if I drive all the way back there, it's going to screw up all my deliveries. And you know, you might get in trouble at work and all that." So she hesitated but then said, "Yeah, I come in, use the phone." Which is how my great-grandmother was murdered. Someone asked to use the phone and she let him in and they tied her up and cut her throat and ransacked her house. So this problem in a blink, didn't it? Yeah, fuck yeah. Absolutely. Now, the phone company later said that a call did go from her den. Don't know to who, but it only lasted a second or two. So he got on and called somebody and then hung up the phone. He comes out of the den where the phone was and he says, "Oh, my boss wasn't there." And he starts walking toward the front door. Everything's normal and fine. She's walking behind her, behind him. Out of nowhere, he spins around and basically gets her in a chokehold with his forearm around her throat and says, "Don't scream, or I'll kill you." Okay. All right. He demanded money. She said, "My purse is in the kitchen." But at that point, he didn't seem very interested in money though, she thought. He then forces her up against a wall and rapes her. The money was just like, it's almost like he tells himself, "I'm doing this for money, but it's not for money." But it makes it okay in his head if it's for money. Might also be a distraction, disarming to make them think of something else. Yeah, totally. Either one. So he's doing this. He keeps his hand on her throat the whole time. At one point, she says, "Why are you doing this?" A good question. He said, "I'm crazy, don't you know?" That was his answer, which is not what you want to hear at all. She said, "Well, my son's going to be home from school soon." He said, "If the boy walks through that door, I'll kill him. I have a gun in my pocket." Okay. And she later told police, his fingers seem to be searching for something in my throat, like he was really enjoying. Avenging for something. Wow. He then sent her into the bathroom. She had to go to the bathroom and told her not to go out the window in there. Stay in there and I'll go out the window. She comes out of the bathroom. He was standing by the front door, staring at her. He was just by the front door, making sure she came out of the bathroom, she came out of the bathroom. And then he left. Went, gotten his car drove away. She ran into the dead and called the police. Obviously. Now, while that was happening, a 14-year-old boy named Kenneth Strickland walked past the house on the way home from school, he liked sports cars and liked Volkswagen's in particular. So he stopped to take a particular note of the car and really look at all the details of it. He noticed the shiny green convertible at the curb and he called it a nice shiny car. And he remembered two distinctive decals that were on the back as well. Far from Nougan or something? Yeah. I don't think they had that yet. Fucking should be called rape-fignugan for all the serial killers that have this. So TNX detectives started calling Volkswagen dealers and checking motor vehicle records for late-model green convertibles. They got one back in the area. There's only one. Just one. It's registered to Robert R. Reldon of Cluster. That's it. That sucks. That is, he's like, fuck this. I got a more common car. God damn it. What a dipshit. He had no idea. Oh, then he's going to blame her for buying him a car that's so fucking so note that. Why did you give me something so noticeable, dammit? She gave me something so unique. So the Cluster police knew exactly who he was. He's a parolee so they can order him to come into the police station. He has to come. If he doesn't come, they go arrest him and take him to fucking prison again. It's a violation. So on April 29, 1967, they called him to headquarters. Didn't say what it was for. They said it was an unspecified police matter. Okay. Just got to come in. Yeah. Bernice Kaplan, the housewife who was raped in her home was brought to the station and looked through a one-way glass and said, that's the guy for sure. Yeah. Absolutely. She then looked at out in the parking lot, saw the car and said, by the way, that's his car, too. That green convertible is his car. And they wrote, that sure is. You nailed that one. Yeah. So thanks, Aunt Lillian, for that gift. Dammit. So June 2nd, 1967. It's his 27th birthday. Happy birthday. You're indicted for rape. Hey, that nice. So they have a rape trial in July of 67. Good Lord. They have her identification. Her identification of both him and the car. They have the boy outside the 14-year-old identifying the car very specifically by the details of where it was and a state police lab technician, too. I don't know if there was fingerprints or something. Oh, that's what it was. The technician testified that semen was found on Kaplan's dress and on a tissue paper in Bobby's windbreaker pocket. He keeps jizz rags in his pockets. That's tissue paper. Oh, like, oh, like, I got it. Yeah, like tissue. Like a toilet paper, clean ex or something. And that hair on the jacket matched hers in color and texture. So on his jacket with the semen with this jizz rag and it also had her hair on it or at least matching characteristics back then. That's all they could do. So the defense called his two local girlfriends as alibi witnesses. Oh, Renee said he left her house at about 310. Her mother said closer to 305. And Beverly Moses said he showed up unexpectedly in the parking lot of her fortly bank at about 330, even though they had no plans. Huh. So the defense is saying he only had 25 minutes. Yeah. 20 minutes, 25. He couldn't have stopped there, roughed her up, raped her, did all that and then got to the bank in time. It's impossible. That's there. He'd have to be incredibly efficient at being a criminal. Yeah. Those folks, Volkswagen's are not that fast. No, they're like lawn mowers. So the jury gets the case at 205 pm. And less than two hours, they come back and say, we're deadlocked, which you've been there two hours. You're not deadlocked, you're this is called. You gotta keep going. Deliberations is what this is called. The judge said get the fuck back in. in there. Um, an hour later, they came out and said, deadlocked. We got nothing. We got nothing. So the judge declared it a mistrial hung jury number two on for him. And it helps to have a good lawyer, doesn't it? Yeah. So September of 67, two months later, they do a retrial. They're not letting them off on this one here. Um, on the first morning of the trial, Bobby asks to fire his lawyer, citing drug, quote, drastic changes in circumstances, but then he would not elaborate. Yeah. Wouldn't elaborate. He wouldn't expand on at all what those changes were. There's just changes, man. Just like I got drastic changes. Just trust me. The judge said, you know, you got your lawyer. We're not to lay in the trial anymore. Um, this time, the prosecutor was first assistant prosecutor was a higher up the ladder. This guy became a judge later. Same evidence. This time, the jury convicts on all counts though. Oh, um, the pre sentence report, as they do a pre sentence report to figure out where to send somebody and, you know, what level of, you know, supervision they need. The pre sentence report quoted his parents. They said that they maintained their son's innocence in regard to the charge of rape. They have arranged for a private treatment facility in Canada. If the court would keep him out of prison, we'll ship him out of you. You won't even be in the country. We'll ship him away. We're going to get him help elsewhere and make him another country's problem. Yeah. This is what rich people would do though. All the time, people will get out of shit all the time because they would make some kind of deal. Well, we'll send him to a facility and, you know, it'll be out of your hair and jurisdiction won't cost the taxpayers anything. If a cop or a police judge is looking at like recidivism and an opportunity, we're going to send him to a different country where they have no word of this. That's so dangerous. We'll pin a note to a sweater, but I mean, we don't know if they'll get it. Look out, rape. Yeah. So it says, what? Be careful, rapist. I don't know. Keep it somewhere where there's no role officers. No. So the according to the report, they quote, cannot picture their son committing this offense as he has many girlfriends. And further, he didn't need the money. So they're like, he has girlfriends and doesn't need the money. Why would he go rob and rape somebody? That's crazy, which so did Ted Bundy again. Same thing. The fact that he did and the witness and the person that happened to us right there and says he did it. The fact that he did is crazy. That's so much worse. Can't be him though. That's what they say. So under the state's sex offender law, the judge sentences him to an indeterminate term at railway prison, not to exceed 30 years. So from zero to 30 somewhere in there is where you got. In prison, he's classified as a quote, special sex offender. You're a real scumbag. I think it's special. Yeah, extra special. He was moved, moved into the treatment unit. The goal was to control what the reports called his repetitive, compulsive pattern of sexual behavior. Now he's a smart guy who knows what to do and knows how to operate in circles, basically. He becomes the main big shot of the program. He's the star pupil, man. He's the shining example of what this program can accomplish. He's smart. He's cooperative. Like a manipulative to turn it around. He's like them. Think I did because I'm good. He is good at this. There's even a guy. There's a skeptical staff members said that they he had the Bobby Reldon fan club while in prison, basically. These these were several doctors who just loved him so much. The number one, two and three guys, William Pendergast. Oh, man. He's the assistant superintendent of the raw way treatment unit. And later it's director. They said that the staff worried that he was actually neglecting the other patients because he's basically acting as Bobby's full-time therapist. Just always up. Bobby's ass loves him. One parole recommendation said, quote, if this is the Pendergast guy, if Redlan is released on parole, I predict that Robert Reldon, I said Redlan before, Reldon, will become the most successful parole Lee in the history of the criminal justice system, which is pure narcissism on this guy's part, too, because he thinks I sat down. I talked to him. I completely got through to him. It worked. I'm such a good doctor that he's fixed now. AI fixed him. Be told you so. Exactly. He even said, I find it hard to believe Bobby could have committed this crime. This is from the book. We'll talk about later called The Charmer. There's a book on this. This is a November 1968 report to the special classification review board regarding Bobby's stated that he had personally given a patient 100. This is Pendergast that he personally gave him 100 hours of general therapy and 70 hours of intensive therapy. Okay. He said that he was required to issue semi annual reports on each inmate in the treatment center. The purpose was to detail the inmates progress and recommend any continued treatment or parole consideration. Then they would make their own periodic evaluation of each individual and forward that to the New Jersey State parole board to review. Pendergast said that all these sessions with Reldon generated quote, terrific improvement and the development of a trusting relationship. After just eight months of treatment, he said, Reldon gained great insight. He said the prognosis for a future positive parole recommendation is considered excellent. His subsequent report six months later was even more positive. If that's possible, he recounted 242 hours of therapy that he had personally conducted with this guy. That's a lot of therapy. I mean, if you're doing it an hour a day, if you, I mean, if you did it eight hours a day, like a job, that would take you long, maybe six weeks, seven weeks. Yeah. For 24, eight weeks, it would take you. But if you're doing it, if you're doing it six weeks, two, three hours a day, six weeks, yeah, take it a long time. Fucking long time. There's a lot of other prisoners there, even fucking eight hours a day. Six weeks is a long time for every single day. That's a lot. So he said that he called Reldon the most intense individual, the Raway facility has ever treated. He said quote, insight flowed from him like water. Yeah. Yeah. He said the young man was able to ventilate his feelings for the first time in his life and to bring to light many repressions, hurts, and rejections that affected his overall social maladjustment. In other words, exactly what a shrink wants to hear. Yeah. You've brought it all out of me. All right. Now it's, it's, he just, he knows what people want. He knows that a calm them. Yeah. It's flowing now. So you turn the tap off at your leisure. It's correct. Well, no, he don't need to. Yeah. He's float out all this stuff. And now that he's knows where all these bad, this bad behavior came from, which I don't even think he did to begin with. Now I can fix it. Now he's fixed it because I'm brilliant. That's essentially what it is. And I told you, yeah. So he, the, he said after Reldon's original admittance to the diagnostic side of the facility, doctors there had concluded that the convicted rapist, quote, showed a repetitive and compulsive pattern of aggressive sexual behavior. Prendergrass was not a psychiatrist, though he held an MA degree in psychology. He supervised the treatment side of the center and now turned the diagnostic finding a little bit different. The Kaplan rape. Prendergrass said, was the result of pure displaced hostility toward Bobby's mother and not sexual and content or purpose. I bet she would disagree. I guarantee she disagrees. Um, I mean, basically he's just saying it's not sexual. It's violence, which is what rape is most of the time anyway. So especially a stranger rape. That's, you know, they said the May 1969 report ends with the chief therapist strongly recommending him for parole, parole was not granted at that time. In November 69, Prendergrass again, issued his third report, um, here, um, in this most effusive. In his most effusive account yet, the therapist cited more than 350 hours of direct treatment he had given, Reldon, noting the, the patient's tremendous, quote, zeal and initiative. No one had shown such insight into his problem since the opening of the railway sex offender treatment facility, according to this doctor, who again recommended parole. He said there was a quote, highly favorable prognosis and respect to, with respect to Reldon's return to society. In, in support of his recommendation, Prendergrass also provided, uh, the board with his own analysis of Rellden's extensive criminal history. history, conceived after he reviewed the man's rap sheets and discussed each entry with Bobby himself. So this is him. He's going to he's going to excuse away all of his crimes as we're going to line by line fix all of this. Wow. The SBI reports can be quite deceiving. These are the rap sheets, as he puts. Without close observation, Reldon's three sheets appear to indicate a rather long and extensive criminal history with almost 25 different offenses. However, when they're analyzed, there are only actually seven prior offenses. In reality, the Kaplan rape is only the second crime that involves any type of violence. Huh? Um, acknowledging that the rap sheets require an experienced eye for correct interpretation and disclosing that he did not seek corroboration from the Bergen County prosecutor or any other law enforcement agency. The this guy embarked on a concerted effort to downplay Robert Reldon's criminal history and win his release on parole, which is wild. This guy disregarded Reldon's first known offense against women. The chokehold assault and robbery and Riverside drive there when he was 16 and a half. He disregarded the five elevator assaults and robberies on the Upper West side that had the same MO. He disregarded the sexual assault of the 14 year old Anna Maria Hernandez. He disregarded the assault with a tire iron on the North Arlington woman during a burglary and of course disregarded the rape of Bernice Kaplan. Well, I mean, besides all those things, yeah, he's, I mean, when you say it like that, he sounds bad. Pretty good guy. If you take out all of his raping and all of his beating of women, he's fine. Even with it, super fixable. He should be fine, yeah. He said that didn't mean Reldon had not committed them or that a therapist should have ignored them. Despite this guy's unwavering intervention on his behalf, in November 1969, they refused in parole again. They did not deter to these chief therapists from taking up the cause. Once again, in his next report, May of 1970, citing more than 440 hours of personally delivered therapy. Undergast showed an even more determined effort to get his release in an unbelievable quote. He said that this is fucking amazing. He said quote, he has done to the core of his problem and has gained all of the insight necessary for a successful adjustment to society. All prior negative attitudes of all types are gone. Parole is again strongly recommended with a very high prognosis for successful community adjustment. It is anticipated that Reldon will probably be one of the most successful people who ever graduated from the raw way treatment unit. Incredible. Okay. One other person from the program said, Reldon would be the poster child for the program because he was so good looking, he said all the right things he could shine in front of the whole world. So they're looking at this as he's handsome and well spoken. Yeah. So he could, if he looked like a crazy street person, then he would be a good spokesman because people are afraid of him. But this guy, he can go in and go, I mean, they've turned me around. Now I'm doing great. I mean, don't you want the guy that's hideous that's turned around? I want that guy. I would want the guy who looks like he, yeah, looks like the most scary and you turn him around. This guy, yeah, looks like a you turn around a rich kid who, whatever, I want a mug shot of a wily haired street arch and that, uh, yeah, that now is all clean. But they want to send this guy out as a representative of the program. So people will think this program works, they'll keep getting money for it and they'll keep their jobs. That's all it is. It's all these prisons are all just keep your job. Another rat boy's rape like crazy. A lot. Another person from the program said, Reldon was very smart, knew the right terms to throw back at the psychologist to show that the treatment was working. Yeah, you can. And then they think, I did it. Look, I fixed them. And they're excited. I told you I could do it. I feel like a mechanic and it turns over and really sounds good. And you're like, I did it. Look at that. You don't know what the fuck is someone just plugged in a spark plug with you. I was like, you have no idea. So, um, another longtime officer at rawway who later wrote a book about the prison said he was such a good con man, which is. He nailed it. He nailed it. October 20th, 1970, paroled. He is paroled. Now March 16th, 1971, William Prendagast, the guy from the prison who wrote all his glowing reports, goes into the hospital for back surgery. Reldon spent much of the day visiting him, sitting by his bedside. And he left mid to late afternoon, now about 31, about 8 pm, a 31 year old woman drove into the garage of her apartment complex in Matuchin, New Jersey, a man opened her driver's door and put a knife to her throat. He demanded money, turned off her headlights and covered her face and throat with his hand. She later said, uh, so that I was completely muscled and choked at the same time. She pushed her purse toward him and he said, quote, that's not what I'm after. I'm not after the money might be the most terrifying thing a person can say to a woman in that situation is that's not what I'm after. Oh Christ, what are you after? She ended up squirming away because she's in the in the driver's side. She crawls over the fucking console into the passenger seat because she only had her by a hand and crawls out the driver's door and runs away. Wow. Or crawls out the passenger door and takes off. He sees, fuck, that's gone now because I want to be chasing a woman who's screaming through the streets because that'll draw attention. So he just walks away the other direction. A patrolman named Charles Moore took the radio call for an attempted rape at the apartment complex. Now, the woman gave a description. Moore sees this man matching the description and said the thing that got, the thing that got me was the eye contact. I immediately knew this is the guy. We looked at each other right in the eyes. Yeah. Everybody else to see is a cop who cares. He looked to see if the cop is looking at him. It's a certain look. It's a it's called eye fucking is what they call it. It's called, I know I do something, but I mean, I don't look at cops when I'm driving. Uh, usually unless I know that I was speeding. That's it. It's it's it's called eye fucking in the cops. They know when I fucking they know when the guy on the street, they know he's up to something. He's eye fucking him. So he said, I immediately, I immediately knew this is the guy. The man Bobby ran into an ice cream store and slapped his hand on the counter and they're like, Hey, I'm here to get some ice cream service, please. Here for this. So the officer tells him the freeze puts his hand on his gun. You better freeze colder than that ice cream, pal, you're gonna get shot and walked him out because the store was full of people buying ice cream. Then Moore went back to the counter and found what had been stashed there, which was a blue handled throwing knife. So he stashed the knife there. They said, we're doing here. And he said, Bobby said, well, I'm in the area visiting a friend in the hospital, a Mr. Prendergast from the prison, the psychologist guy, blah, blah, blah. So Moore, this officer and another officer went to the JFK Medical Center in Edison and asked Prendergast, Prendergast, do you know this guy? And he said, Well, he's my prized pupil. He's the best. So he said, do you, do you mean a teacher? Are you a teacher? And he said, no, no, I run the sex offender unit at raw way and they went, Oh, perfect. This is our guy then. Our prized pupil, he thought like, Oh, are you a community college professor or something? Oh no, that's, he's a rapist. Okay. You're doing terrible. Bad job. So March 23rd, 71 parole revoked back to raw way. By the way, he pleads guilty to the last case that was hanging in there somewhere. All right. Pleads guilty. Oh, that's the one that he just attempted rape on that one. They sentenced him to five to seven years concurrent with the cap on sentence. So it's all part of this one sentence. Back in prison, he worked again, charming, charming, charming, he's on point. One of the inmates or one of the people there said he was entirely different than 99% of the inmates. He just knew what to say. He just knew how to play the game. Wow. He's not a street guy. He's a rich kid. So he knows how to play the fucking game and how to make these adults from the time he's a little bit. He spent exactly another said, quote, all the psychs couldn't figure him out. In fact, he had them all fooled. That's what a prisoner said. Spring of 75, he's still in there and has been in for four years. He appears on a TV program hosted by David Frost, David Frost hosted tons of talk shows in the 70s. But the thing you're thinking of is the big Frost first Nixon that they made a movie out of David Frost. Right. And multi-night interview with Richard Nixon after Nixon, you know, had quit and all that. But yeah. So by the way, it's a fucking great movie, even if you're not interested in it. It's a really good movie. So David Frost is a very well-known guy internationally too. He hosted shit in Australia and England and America all over the place. I don't know about trust. He wasn't a serious guy. No. That's no. That's why they were like, why are you doing a Nixon interview? No. You're a fucking you interview like celebrities and like your own. you're like a party, you know, showbiz guy. You're not a serious journalist. And he was like, I know, weird, right? - It was really bush. - Yeah, if you see the movie, it was him. - Exactly. If you see the movie, it's him trying to figure out. - How do I do this for real? How do I take this? - How do I not be a fucking joke essentially? 'Cause they're like, he's gonna run you over. Dude, you're nobody, you're a loser. You're a fucking, you're Mario Lopez. What do you think of that? - You're not real. - You're Kelly Ripa. Do you think, what are we talking about? - I think it's a stray hand. - So, spring of '75 is when he appears on that. It's a special about rape titled The Unspeakable Crime. Yeah. - The Unspeakable. - I mean, we speak about it all the time. He, in it, Bobby speaks up for sex offenders and asks for more understanding and better treatment. You just don't get it. That's the problem. Oh yeah. One, and people, people were so impressed with his progress. He was chosen by the prison to be the guy to be interviewed. - Oh my God. - Because he sounds and looks the best. So you put him out there. - He's gonna convince us that we gotta have some sympathy for him too. - Yup, and right after that, he's paroled. Right after us. - Wow. - Right after us. You may, you go out there, you make us look good. We'll let you out. I feel like is what it was. Quit pro quo there. So May 30th, '75, he's paroled again. So he's 34th this point. And the, the supervision was ordinary parole supervision. He reported to an officer. He's expected to have a job. He can't leave New Jersey, which is a sentence right there. Later, also, they said there was, when he gets out, he goes back into Bergen County. And one of the cops from the area said there was never anything criminal happening in the area. There were no break-ins going on at the time. I don't remember a concern about safety at your home. It was very quiet. - And then he got out. - And now he's out. So anything that happens, they're gonna look at him first. Is he's the, the guy is fucking disrupting the Apple cart here. So June 17th, 1975. Less than three weeks after he gets out of prison. He is gonna get married. - Oh. - He gets married to Judy Rosenberg. - The lady who's with the mob husband. - Yeah. - The mob husband, he met at the pool in Florida in '67. She waited through him the whole time. They're all this. They moved in to an apartment on Central Avenue in Tenefly, New Jersey, with her then 12-year-old son, Eddie. Hey, come in. I'm gonna move my 12-year-old in with a convicted multi-time rapist. This is a very good decision. - Oh, my. - Her other husband's a gangster. Wonder what her upbringing was like. I'm sure her father was a wonderful, wonderful man, just a great guy. - Great James. - So, yeah, so I mean, I bet her father was a real piece of work. So one person interviewed said this about him. He had girlfriends here. He had girlfriends there. Women loved him. They were all over Robert Reldon telling you. He worked as a house painter at this point. And he also ran a small construction business around this time, just his own little handyman business. One job involved sandblasting. And he had to rent a bunch of sandblasting equipment. Just talk about that. Okay, the car he's driving now is a an Opel station wagon. Opel's a brand, if you don't know, if you're too young. O-P-E-L, Opel. They made little cars. Witnesses described it as a maroon or dark red, some sort, something like that, little station wagon. Now, let's talk about Susan Johnstone Haynes, H-E-Y-N-E-S. She's born July 23rd, 1947 from England, from Gloucester, England. Gloucester, Gloucester, Gloucester, whatever. She is trained as a midwife. That's what she's doing for a living here. Before she came to the United States, she'd worked in South Africa. She still has a bunch of friends there. She met her husband Jonathan Haynes at a party. And he said, we met at a party and we hit it off almost straight away. She was a very happy girl. A hugely warm, always had a smile and very social. Lots and lots of friends, made friends very easily. - He's British to straight away as I said. - Yes, straight away. Absolutely, yeah, he's British. Her engagement ring came from Harrods in London. He said, quote, looking at its sideways, it was shaped as an S and had a unique pattern of small diamonds and a central diamond. Not an overly expensive ring, but a particularly nice design, which we chose. And she never took it off. She loved it. She wanted to get married. She was totally into it. They got married in a warwickshire in England, in a 13th century church. So big deal. In 1975, Jonathan took a job in the United States and they had to figure out where they were going to live. - How they're going to get, yeah. - He said, we had the option of having an apartment in New York or moving out to New Jersey. And we drove around New Jersey and Northern Bergen County was particularly lovely and we picked a house and it was a nice house. - There it is. - There were more into the leafy thing. - Yeah. - The house was in Haworth or Hayworth, H-A-W-O-R-T-H. Susan was looking for work at this time. So October 6, 1975, 8 AM at the house in Haworth or whatever it is, Jonathan Haynes leaves for work. Susan stays home. She had a stack of letters to mail, including, I guess, a birthday present for her mother in England, okay. October 6th, same day, about 1 PM, Jonathan calls home from work. He said, I telephone Sue at about one o'clock and everything was fine and she was quite excited. She had a letter from good friends in Cape Town. One of the great friends was going to have a child. She was excited by that and so we chatted for some length of time about that. I said, I think I'll be home slightly late tonight. - Sure. - So he comes home about 5.50 PM and he said, normally Sue would come to the door and say, hi, but there was no one there. The house was locked, so I had to use my keys to get in. A shouted, Sue, Sue, Sue, you fucking bitch. Where are you? - Come say hello. - Yeah. - He said, no, it was not a thing out of place. He goes through every room. Nothing's disturbed. There's nothing like. There's folded laundry there. There's no like knocked over shit. It doesn't look ransacked. He checks the garage and he said the car was shut but the driver's keys were in the ignition, I believe, and the house keys were on the passenger seat in her car. So he's like, that's weird. So I'll read from the book here and it gives you an idea. I guess they had had people over there on the week, over the weekend, three male friends from England. Jonathan had borrowed an XJ-12 from work the previous week and left his TR-7 for repairs, which is a Jaguar and a triumphant, I believe, right? - It's awesome. - Yeah. So they used the larger vehicle over the weekend to take their English friends to the Grand Prix auto race as at Watkins Glen. - Hell yeah. - He then dropped the English guys off at their hotel on his way to work and they were flying back home later that night. At work, he swapped the borrowed car for his own sports car which had been repaired. Susan must have spent the morning cleaning up because he noticed nothing was out of place. Yesterday's paper was on the kitchen table, open to the jobs section, along with a felt tip pen and a notepad. Job hunting in the '70s was what that looked like. He called to his wife, got no response. He went through the house room by room and their bedroom, he saw a tampon on the dressing table, which he was like, why is there a tampon laying there? That's weird. Susan was very private about personal hygiene. She said it was idiosyncratic with her. She never left something like that out for him to see. Just not something she did. She had never, he said he had never ever ever known where she even kept her supply of them. She just, I don't know where she pulled tampons out. - Is this a new one? - Yes, a new one, yeah. That night, Susan was to go to the Bergenfield adult school to attend a pottery class. - Okay. - What she really had fun with and she did it every week. Johnathan saw her clothing for class neatly laid out on the bed. In the bathroom, he saw piles of folded towels and linens. So he's like, okay, she did the laundry. He went and checked outside and checked the garden. There's nothing there. So he went into the garage and looked in Susan's car. Her keys are on the driver's seat. It seems to be a little bit of a discrepancy over whether they were in the ignition or on the driver's seat. And her house keys on the front passenger seat next to a wrapped parcel address to Susan's mother in England. She had mentioned that morning she was gonna post something home and he said, okay, that looks like what it must have been. So he said maybe she walked down the street to meet him on his way home from work. Maybe she was walking down, she was gonna meet me. She never did that before, but I don't know, maybe. I don't know, I don't know, I don't have any better ideas. So he thought this is very too many unsusin-like things we're going on right now. He got in his car and drove back along his normal route down the road that he thought maybe she walked on and there's no Susan. So he came back home and went around to the Slater residence, which is next door to see if his neighbors had seen Susan. And Dorothy Slater said, yeah, I spoke with her about 3.30 p.m. in the backyard a couple hours ago. Susan was taking in the wash from the clothesline. The two backyards were separated by a low hedge. So they saw each other outside. talking. All right. He said, what did she seem like? Was she okay? She said seem like her normal cheerful self. I don't know. So her husband, Leeland accompanied Jonathan home to help him look through the house and just whatever. He said, maybe Susan fainted. Maybe she's lying out of sight in one of the rooms. Did you look like next? Did you go around the beds to make sure to see the other side of them? And he said, I guess not. Maybe not. So together, Jonathan and the next door neighbor searched the house, found nothing. Mrs. Slater and another neighbor, Mr. Belcher, arrived at the home. All of them looked all around the garden. Then in the basement, they moved everything out of the way to see a person. Maybe she lost consciousness and fallen. They found no trace of her. Nothing, no blood, no anything. It's about about 6.40 pm. It's starting to get dark. And he said, okay, I got to call the police. This is crazy. So he calls. He phoned the police department, gave his name and address, tells the officer that his wife's missing. He asked if there'd been an accident or any other occurrence that might account for her absence. Maybe they asked him or he asked them, has there been any car accidents around here or any kind of anything like that? Anybody hit by a car? And the dispatcher said they're not investigating anything like that. But we'll send an officer to the house as soon as we can. So the investigation starts and immediately narrows in on Jonathan. Immediately. Yeah. They look at him. One of the investigators said, in any case of a missing woman, the first person that a police officer will think of as a possible perpetrator, spouser boyfriend, obviously, or ex-boyfriend, even better. Jonathan, he only figured it out. He didn't realize that's what the cops were doing. He's English. It's different. You know, he doesn't know what the hell is. American information that he's, yeah. Yeah. He said his friend pointed it out. He said, my friend suggested that things might not be as easy as they seem to the police. And then it dawned on me. I might well be a suspect. Like, oh, shit. That's right. Friends. Fuck yeah. They're not trying to help me. So after three days, they asked him, will you take a polygraph? He said, quote, because this is the 70s or not true crime shows on every TV station. He said, I had no idea what a polygraph test was. I wouldn't want to do it again under any sort of circumstances like that. But he took it anyway. Any past with flying colors. Right. Because he didn't do it. So the investigator said there was absolutely no concern that he was involved in this disappearance whatsoever after that. Huh. Because he didn't seem like it. Anyway, it didn't make sense. And his alibi is all wind up and everything like that. But you add that with a polygraph. They go, okay, he's, he's out probably. So now the search goes crazy. Police brought dogs in going everywhere. Hundreds of volunteers are walking fields, arm and arm, doing that whole thing, you know, by points and everything. Right. At one point, they even brought a psychic in because they're out of ideas. Where could she be? We'll bring a psychic in. Jonathan said he wrote along with the cops. He said, I traveled for days in an unmarked police van with police going around New Jersey, trying to find indications of where Susan might have been. He said nobody knew what they were dealing with. She said was this he or he was thinking, what could it be? He goes, she have amnesia. She hit her head and she's wandering somewhere around questioning things. Somewhere using a different accent, not even being English and shit. Who knows? Weird questions. Then he said, was this some kind of political kidnapping? Had she been kidnapped by a professional body? He said, because at that time, the United Kingdom was having trouble in North Ireland. So they thought maybe just any English person they might take. So he said, but there was no ransom call or anything. So that, you don't kidnap someone for no reason. You do it for ransom. For reasons, yeah. Whatever your reason is, but it's not just, I just want to keep you and look at you. That's not what not a political movement would do. A creep would, but not a movement. So July, October 9th and 10th, 1975, the disappearance makes the newspaper in the area. By the next day, the coverage is raising possibilities of a kidnapping. Investigators are reaching out to old contacts in Canada, England, South Africa. Has anyone heard from her? No one's heard from her. It's a crazy deal. So they're like a young married woman disappearing from inside her own locked house in the middle of a weekday afternoon in a safe area. The car keys still in the ignition is on. October 14th, 1975, about 4.45 pm. That was before that. The 14th, that's when Susan Reeve, remember her from the very beginning, leaves her work at gray advertising, catches the commuter bus, 610 steps off the bus, driver saw another passenger saw her. She's up the sidewalk going home. An investigator later on described the route that she would walk and said, Susan Reeve was walking up the sidewalk after she got off the bus on that far corner. She was walking in the direction of her home, which is further up Anderson Avenue, Ben, all of the sudden she was nowhere to be found. Now, a witness said he noticed something was wrong when he saw her standing with a man near a park station wagon. Okay, so he was outside the car about a quarter mile from her house. The station wagon was described as a dark red opal. Oh, shit. Which we know. Now, after she disappeared, about 40 feet from the corner, the only clue they found was an orange canvas mask used for sandblasting. Remember that. He's got a business where he rents equipment for sandblasting all the time to do things. Now, October 14, 1975, Susan Reeve at her house. She doesn't come home. Her parents waited. Her father said as time went on, we began to wonder and called around to her fiance and to other people to see if perhaps she had a date and hadn't neglected to tell us about. Nobody had seen her. Her parents walked down to the bus stop. Her parents called the police. Her father said, I think we I think we thought she might have been kidnapped. So we hoped we would receive a request for ransom. Because on TV, there was way more kidnappings than just, you know, I'm going to kill this woman and rape her type of deals. Please don't isolate that. We beg you. Or I beg you, anyway, Jimmy, I don't care. No, he doesn't care. So no request ever came. He searched, the dad kept searching almost every day. Wow. He said some clue would come about and I would search an area but to no avail. So about that night, this, that was beyond that. But we're still in October 14th, about 730 pm. So this would be an hour and a half after she disappeared. A car pulled up to a toll booth. An Eileen Dalton is the toll booth collector. And she is from the poor authority runs the George Washington bridge. Other accounts, though, place are on the palisades interstate parkway. Either way, toll booth. Now, she said the driver pulled up had his radio up loud in a dark red, dark red station wagon had his radio up loud, real loud, like overly loud to interact with a toll booth operator. She said she heard a woman's voice coming from the back of the car, which is weird. She said, quote, she heard something coming from what she thought was the back of the car. A female voice distinctly crying out, help me. He's crazy. Help me. He's crazy screaming over and over again. Oh my god. Another, also, he's a maniac, she said. Now, this a second attendant also heard this and believed that it was coming from his trunk or the back area of the station wagon type deal. He sped off the driver, which is whole wild. Um, so then October 15th 16th, the next day and the day after that, the police are connecting these two disappearances immediately because they're close by, too. Jonathan Haynes said the police very quickly told me there's another young woman who had gone missing and they very quickly put the two together. I don't think there was any hesitation. So I mean, this is a big deal. Now we're talking to young women disappearing from an area like this. Now there's helicopters overhead door-to-door canvassing. They're not fucking around here. One person who captained an ambulance squad said the whole town was on edge. It was just a chaotic time. Now, investigators had a list. They looked up recently paroled sex offenders, basically, which is what they'd still do now. That's still the first thing they do is look up. If there's a thing, they'll look up in the area around it. Where are the sex offenders? Who are the people that do this kind of thing? Yep. So they pulled out six much mugshots of parolies and showed them to Eileen Dalton, the toll booth woman. She tentatively picked out Robert Reldon as the driver. Now an investigator later explained that quote, they didn't have any firm suspicions about him. It was a routine matter. Record of sexual activity bring him in. So when they brought him in, it was just because he was a sex offender in the area. It wasn't for any other purpose. Then they also have a witness that back on October 6th, when Susan Haynes disappeared, a neighbor said that he saw her at 3.30 pm outside, so did that other next door neighbor. Her car was in the garage. The letters she meant to mail were in the front seat. And she also said, this person also said they had seen a red Opel station wagon in the driveway. is driveway at the time. So they gave extensive testimony explaining why he noticed the car and why it took him so long to understand what he'd seen because he didn't come forward right away. It took him a long time to figure out, oh, that was, oh, shit, that's the same day. Now about October 20th, 1975, so about a week after Susan Reeve disappears off the bus, a man walks into a macy's department store and I didn't know you could do this. I didn't know macy's was like a pawn shop back then. You could sell them jewelry at macy's. Yeah, I think you could do that for quite some time up until fairly recently because it's not worth anything anymore. It's so weird. One particular piece caught the clerk's eye. She said it was a very unique ring. It was an engagement ring, but it was a different kind of ring. It was made specially. It's the same thing. Two days later, the man came back and wanted the ring back. Shit, they're going to be looking for that. Yeah, the store couldn't find it right away and he got pissed. The person at the store said he had raised such a stink made such a scene of not being able to immediately get the ring back. He screamed, causing all kinds of problems. So bad, they bring store security up to calm him down. So he buys the ring back for $100 in cash. I don't know what he sold it to them for. Later on, they will identify this man as Robert Reldon, by the way. The ring was, by the way, identical when given a description of it. This is exactly what the person from macy's described. So he apparently made two other attempts to sell it. A jeweler named John Truncally, who owned a jewelry store, testified later that Bobby tried to sell him a woman's engagement ring very similar to a sketch of the Haynes ring. And another guy said he'd been approached to about the ring. And then another guy said, yeah, he tried to sell me that same ring. We never find the ring, by the way. Really? He did sell it. Yeah. He sold it somewhere. So October, or through it in a river, October 21st and 22nd, police asked Robert to come in for questioning. As a parolee, he is required to come in. So he does. The interview is recorded. One investigator said he was very positive and he said, here's a diary of what I've been doing the last six months. So if you want to know what I've been up to here, Robert did this? Bobby did this. Yeah. He told them he was in a strong financial position. He gave specific accounts of the days around the disappearances except one. October 6th, the day Susan Haynes disappeared from her house was the only day he did not have any entry for no, no account of that day. For October 14th, the day Susan Reeve disappeared, he gave an alibi that investigators later found out was at least partially false. He said he had a drink. He said he stopped at a bar not far from his house and ordered a bitter lemon, which is a non-alcoholic soda. The investigator said so the investigators actually went to that bar and the bartender said they do not stock bitter lemon as a beverage in their bar. So they asked him to take a polygraph. He said I'd like to talk to my lawyer before I take a polygraph and he left and then he never came back for the polygraph. Obviously. October 27th, 1975 Valley College or Valley Cottage, New York. A man is walking his dog. This is Rockland County, by the way, a little bit upstate, not much. A man is walking his dog in a wooded area of Valley Cottage in Clarkstown, Rockland County. Now he's takes his dog for a walk here all the time. It's like, by the way, this is about 15 miles from Susan Haynes' house in New Jersey where she disappeared just across the state line. The man was trying to walk down a pathway to the shore of a reservoir but the dog wouldn't go. The dog kept pulling in another direction. He said the dog kept dragging him off to the right. The dog pulled him toward a more secluded pathway and there he discovered the body of a human being. Bad dog. You bad dog. Now you fucking ruined my day now. But it's a body of a woman who is nude and face down. They describe her as partially hidden beneath some broken off tree branches. Sprinkle some tree branches on her. That's disgusting. Sticks and leaves have been piled on top of her. Just whatever they could find. That's some foliage around. Yeah. Around her neck was a pair of women's pantyhose. A stick had been threaded through it and twisted to tighten. They used it so he didn't have to pull because that can take a while. It's so lazy and true. Lazy. The news obviously gets to Jonathan Haynes and he remembered a friend's coming to him. He said he came quietly to me and said a body has been found and I think at the time we all realized it was most likely to be Susan and dental records confirmed it. He said I don't think many people in this world can imagine how bad that was. It was horrendous and something which is stuck with me forever. He noticed by the way, engagement ring missing off her finger. Gone. The odd tops see they found out the homicide by strangulation. She'd been dead about three weeks, which put her close to around the day she disappeared. The key finding was her throat, the hyoid bone, small u-shaped bone at the top of the neck was fractured. One investigator said the body had been garotted around the neck with the woman's hose a stick tied in it and tightened. So the very next day, October 28th, 1975 at Talman State Park, which is in Peermont, New York. There was employees there. State employees doing a job here. They were checking a pipe to make sure the chlorine level wasn't too high. The park runs along the Hudson with marshland at the river's edge. One of the workers went over there and found something. He said, quote, well, the body was found off the park into the environments and into the environments of the river there. Park employees were checking the pipe to make sure there was not a high chlorine level and a body was found lying on its back in the water with the arm sticking up in the air. Oh, fuck. And one of the investigators said the arm was a big deal. He said, but the body's not right. It could have been situated that way with the arm sticking up in the air. The arm would come down. So the body knew that this body had been placed here. This is very specific. They said she was partially covered with broken off swamp reeds and with a panty hose ligature around her neck as well. So they found evidence she had been raped also as well as Susan Haynes and that her body had been moved after death. This is 12.9 miles from where Susan Haynes was found the day before. So they disappeared from the same little area and ended up in another completely different little area. Both of them. Yeah. So now the press, this is when they put out everything, the Susan strangulations. That's what this is called. So both names Susan. And remember, we don't know if this is psychologically anything to this, but his sister who got all the attention's name with Susan, if we remember, little polio Susan there. So the doctor performs the autopsy. This is the same doctor who performed the other autopsy because it's County coroner. Both women died of exfixiation due to ligature strangulation. Both had fractured hyoid bones. He concluded that in both cases, death was caused by ligature assisted by the hand of the murder. Okay. He estimated Susan had been dead about two weeks, putting her death right about the time she disappeared. He said in his experience, fewer than one percent of strangulations fracture the hyoid cartilage. Really? Fewer than one percent, he said. He said two in one week from the same county with the same pantyhose garot dumped a few miles apart in the same New York County is not a coincidence. Same guy. And he's to tell the police they're both killed by the same person. This is crazy. So by the way, since 1966, no other homicide in Bergen County had involved strangulation with a pantyhose ligature. None. None. Of six unsolved strangulation homicides in the county over 12 years, only these two had involved injuries like this. So it's very specific with it. It's incredible. So Susan Reeve had been dead nearly two weeks. Most of it being in water and marsh. It's not good. You can imagine the condition her bodies in May. And this is October, October, but still in the water. Her father was asked about identifying her and he said, I can't even describe to you. She had been dead for almost a week. Actually two weeks is more accurate. So it would have been very difficult for me to identify her. And it was impossible for her to have a normal funeral. She had to be cremated. Her engagement ring and earrings were recovered from her body, though. Interesting. October 30th, two days later, Relden tries to break into a home in Norwood, New Jersey. Okay. Okay. He had already been questioned about two dead women. And now he's out burglarizing houses. Right. October 31st, Halloween night and cluster, Relden burglarizes a home. Police were alerted. They got an arrest warrant for him and a search warrant for his car. He was arrested for attempted burglary. Bell was set at really high $750,000, which means they talked to the judge and said he is a major suspect in two murders. He's doing it. Yeah. November 2nd, 1975, they announced to the press, though, he's not a suspect in these killings, not a suspect. He's fine. He's fine. Something else. Yeah. Meanwhile, they're putting together the orange canvas sand blasters mask that they found with him because he had rented one for a painting job, a painting job very recently before that. And a court record list, a sand blasters mask among us. He had rented. Yeah. November 13th, 1975, officers searched the apartment that he's living in with Judy. Now Judy Reldon was Judy Rosenberg. They're looking for jewelry taken from the murdered women. They didn't find anything. They do find a California driver's license with Robert's photo and a false name on it. Oh, he's got fake IDs. Again, that's right there. Pearl. Yeah. Fucking, you know, provoked. He had several blank birth certificates and an address book. How do you get those? No, I've heard of the way. There's this one guy. I think ghost in the wires is the name of this guy named Kevin Mittnik. If you look him up, very interesting guy. He was like one of the first big giant hackers. He hacked in the phone systems. Sure. He hacked in all this type of shit. And when he was wanted by the FBI, he went to some little tiny town in South Dakota, pretended to be in a private investigator looking for something. They were super friendly, let him in there. He stole stack. He was looking for deceased babies that he could, that he could put that were around his age, that he could make that. So that's what he was doing. And he had their embossor. So he embossed like 50 fake birth certificates and took them with them and had them at any time he could change his fucking. It's amazing. So anyway, it's a good book. By the way, if you want to listen to it, I got an audible, very good stuff. So anyway, um, he's got an address book as well. In the address book was the name of a woman named Roberta Gimble. She was later interviewed, um, about her relationship with him and they seized his address book. No Vembers 75, they realized that he had access to a vacant house. Where? His aunts, his aunt owns a house that's vacant and cluster. It's not her formal. Lily is going. It's not using. Yeah. Um, so investigators bring in tracking dogs. The dogs detected Susan Reeves sent in two areas of the house. Oh, fuck. In the garage where blood stains, which match her blood type were found and in a second floor bedroom directly above it. What do you think was going on in there? He took her there. This is fucking. He has his own little private rape studio, little rape studio. Yeah. The other ones, a kid could come home. This could happen. No, no, this is his private little fucking place. So January 2nd, 76 investigators report evidence from his station wagon, vacuum sweepings of the interior turned up hair strands, exhibiting the same microscopic characteristics as the head hair of both victims. They both been in his car. Um, also tracking dogs detected Mrs. Haines sent in his car as well. So there's that pretty sure she's been there pretty sure 1976 in June. He has sentenced to two to three years at railway for the burglaries, but he's not charged with murder yet. But they got him in prison and now they can put a case together here. Um, so anyway, there's a woman named Irene Lippert. All right. Let's read from the book here quickly. Um, Irene Lippert, uh, claimed to have survived imprisonment in a Nazi concentration camp in Poland as a young girl. So it was ironic that she herself took a job as a prison guard in 1974. That is a lot. Uh, she rose in rank to become food services supervisor at railway state prison in that capacity. She oversaw day-to-day operations of the officer's dining room, the adjoining VIP room used when dignitaries or other special guests visited the prison, uh, Lippert supervised the staff of inmates assigned to her as cooks, waiters and office clerks. That the choice is assignments basically. Sure. The head clerk and his assistant clerk got perks from the general prison population that the general prison population was to, uh, denied like the same food, the guards ate and even alcoholic beverages from time to time. So if you worked for her, you got hooked up not legally, but on the slide when no one was paying attention and the VIP VIP liquor cabinet could be jimmyed. Then the rules a little bit, a little bit makes them work a little harder. The duties were light, typing menus, inventory reports and internal memos mostly. And Irene Lippert was away from the office for hours at a time, leaving the staff largely unsupervised. Okay. After entering into a plea agreement, uh, for the two burglaries, he committed the previous October, Relden was sentenced in June 1976 to, uh, concurrent two to three year terms at railway. His pleasant, uh, ingratiating manner might very well have landed him in a cushy prison job in the ODR, but he already had an in during the latter part of Relden's previous imprisonment after blanch, his blanch mate conviction. That's the Kaplan one. Um, he and Irene Lippert were at the railway contemporaneously. He has a prisoner, of course, she is a guard and they got to know each other. And as we know, he charms the shit at anybody. It wouldn't have taken long for Lippert to arrange Relden's assignment to her staff. He served briefly in the kitchen until Lippert cleared the way for him to become her head clerk. An inmate familiar with the ODR and food services office later suggested Lippert and Relden had more than just a working relationship. Oh no. Obviously. If true, it may have simply been a friendship. She later admitted I knew was a rule. I didn't know it was a law. Right. That's what I think the it's a rhetorial rent. It's a real deal. Yeah. It's real deal. She later admitted to taking a liking to Relden personally and testified on his behalf at subsequent trials, which is prison guards don't normally do that. So in this early December 76, Relden and his assistant clerk, Albert Barber, were sitting up in front of the prison auditorium waiting for the start of the Saturday night movie. This sounds like a party in here with the fuck. There's been no. There's been nothing mentioned of sitting in a cell for 23 hours a day. No, lots of stuff going on. Food, kick in, fucking. When Barber felt a tap on his shoulder, it was Alison Williams, a man named Alison Williams. Not a lot of men named Alison that I found really. That's again a cowboy name. It's very it's a cowboy Alison. Uh-huh. No, that's not a cowboy name. That's a little girl's name and a skirk. I don't just cowboy. I'm just saying there are a lot of cowboys named Alison and Carol. Carol, I've heard tons of because that's also like an Irish name too. But Alison, I've literally never heard of a man named Alison before my entire fucking life. That's why I look okay. Hey, you learn something new every day. Alison Bar, Alison Williams, an old friend from Atlantic City, real cowboy. Yeah, Atlantic City. I mean the cowboy name is makes no sense. Um, whom Barber hadn't seen in years. The two men smiling broadly jostled each other in a show of playful exuberance. Alison explained that he and his brother Cliff, who was in the back of the room had just been transferred to Rauway to begin serving five to seven year sentences for burglaries they'd done together. Um, Barber gestured for Relden to join him started to walk with Alison to greet Cliff. Uh, he told Bobby Relden, I have two friends I want you to meet. Um, so Barber loved the two brothers who he'd known since he was 12. Um, basically they were, they said it had near celebrity status in the prison culture because they had pulled off some of the biggest ice of jewelry and cash in New Jersey history. Yeah. So yeah, they said they were also known as the dinner time socialite bandits, primarily because of their high end clientele they targeted. I wouldn't call them clientele if you rob them. Um, targets victims. Yeah. They once targeted the wife of an elite Mexican official and also cased the ski ski resort digs of the duke, a duke and Duchess of Windsor for a possible jewelry score, which didn't work out holy shit. These tools. Yeah, these guys are pretty goddamn kind of infamous here. And he, he helps them get a job better jobs and, you know, Relden helps them here. And by December 76, they're hanging out Cliff and, uh, Alison and, uh, Clifford sworn statement said, quote, that, uh, that, uh, Relden said to him, I shouldn't have put them both in the same spot or so near. I shouldn't have put them so near together. We're talking about his face. A little regret. Yeah. Um, the same statement he said that he felt the, by the reason he did bring him up there, was he felt that if he brought him up there, that Bergen County wouldn't have jurisdiction and they wouldn't, it would, it would be a big mess of where a who even would investigate this as a them is at New York. So that's what he said. Um, so Relden also said he said kill a New Jersey dump in New York and confuse who could do the prosecution. So that's what he was trying. to do. That's what he told them. They also talked about his aunt, as we'll talk about. January 20th, 1977, a grand jury returns indictments for murder for both seasons. Fuck. Yes. Four days later, he's transferred to Trenton State present away from the two guys, because they told on him, because they're jewelry thieves. They're not murderers. They won out. They'll tell on a murder to get a year off their sentence. Now, in Demarest, they said that everyone was freaked out. They said one guy said everyone lost their spirit after the murder. And he talked about raising his own daughter. And he said, I didn't want to make her paranoid, but I wanted to protect her. We've got to protect our young people. Yeah, we need them to be aware of their surroundings, but not necessarily. Yeah. Everything is a threat. Yeah, not enjoy your life. That would, that would be ideal. Arthur and Barbara Reeve, Susan's parents moved to Florida, eventually here, because dad, they both said they couldn't keep driving past the place where that was taken from. They know exactly the corner. She was saying they can't keep doing it. It's right on their street. They can't go outside without looking at it. So February, 1977. Okay, Albert Barber, who's a convicted bank robber, who we talked about, his prison buddy with Bobby here, he said, I need some help with the Albert. I need some help from you here. He goes, I need to find a killer on the outside. Okay. Okay. Someone to kill on the outside for me. And they said, well, who was it? And he said, woman named Lillian. And she'd kill my aunt so that I can big, big, big, bequeathed. And she's in her early 60s. She's got a house in Alpine. I need her killed there. The second target was her companion, a guy named Misha Dabbitch, guy she hung out with. So he approached two fellow inmates. Can you get someone to kill her? I'm going to need a big time attorney to represent me. So I need you to kill her. So I get money. At least my inheritance, my part of it. And then I'll be able to hire a good attorney. The inmates said, we'll look into it. Instead of looking into it, they went right to the authorities and told them immediately. So the Williams brothers agreed to testify immediately also. Yeah. One prison official said it came through the grapevine because the grapevine in prison is really a gigantic thing. And he planned to kill her for money because she was, because he was in her will. So this is fucking wild. March 8, 1977, detective Nicholas Gallo of the Bergen County prosecutor's office walked into Trenton state prison, all wired up for up for sound. He introduces himself as Frank Parisi, a hitman who's stuck in prison now. Okay. Reldon meets with him at least twice that month and the conversations are secretly recorded. So he's got to pretend to be an inmate there. Yeah. I'm a hitman. I'm some fucking, he's Donnie Braskoing the situation. According to this, he gave directions to his aunt's house on a wooded street in Alpine. He talked about payment. And this is why he thought he was the real deal, too, because he's not talking about five grand. He's talking about somewhere for a rich person in neighborhood like that somewhere between 100 and 150 grand. This is going to cost in 1977. That's real money. That's a real hitman. And he's like, oh, shit. They said, well, the payout also can be jewelry, too, because you can take a bunch of jewelry from her and whatever you get from that. They said the signal that he wanted to kill her was when he told the investigator, that's what he wanted done with his aunt to slash her across the throat. Now, I have like the full transcripts from the book here of these conversations. We don't have time to read them all, but here's Gallo. All right. Now listen. Oh, no, this is what he tells Gallo. All right. Now listen, you do like, you do this like I tell you, it's one, two, three in and out pop. And as a matter of fact, I can get you right into the house. Your bit is that good morning. I'm an investigator for the law firm of Williams and Connolly, a law firm from DC. We like to ask you some questions. She'll let you right in the door. He's saying, this is how you kill my aunt. Yeah. Now Gallo said, you're going to have to, you're going to have to have this written down for me because I'm not going to be able to, I ain't going to be able to remember all this shit, which is evidence is what he wants him to write down. I need you to not write in your own handwriting if you can. I really need you to put a conspiracy in your own hand writing if possible. Is that all right? Do you sign and date it? So, Reldon tore a few blank pages out of a small notebook and gave them to Gallo to take notes. So I'm not writing it down, but you can write it down. Oh, okay. But he wasn't about to put on anything down on paper himself. Yeah. Reldon then proceeded to lay out the plan. He told him to expect no weapons in the house. And it's only his aunt in her 50s and her companion, a man about 40 who would be there. Oh, she is. She's doing it. She's fucking bagging some younger guy. This is hilarious. She referred to his aunt's companion as a quote stone cold punk and said she'll give you more problems than he will. Really? Yeah. Yeah. He's a little bitch. She's just a boy told me. Yeah. Yeah. He wants to bang a social security age woman for money. Yeah. He's not smooth-chested man trying to get trying to get a retirement out of this. That's it. I mean, there are a lot of trips to nice places. Right. I mean, if it was going to go to a knockdown fight, she'd jump on you before he would. You know what I'm telling you? The woman, the female, is the deadlier of the species. He says, this is a quotes from the thing. All right. Gallow said he is uneasy about carrying a gun on the job. And Bobby said, well, you got to take it. How else are you going to go there? I mean and Gallow said, do I have to use a gun? And Bobby said, it's the best. And Gallow said, well, what if I'm stopped on the way there carrying a gun? And I'm going to get busted for that. That's stupid. So they continue to discuss the what weapon. It's going on and on. They draw detail after detail and need you to do that. I mean, it really, basically, Gallow would elicit. He would like disagree with him at times to get him to explain even more. Getting the road map, the whole thing, not just the way to the place, but the actual event. This is how I want it done. Instead of eventually that Reldon won the argument about using a gun, but only after he became visibly agitated is when the other guy gave it. And he was like, okay, I don't want to I don't want to knock him off the hook here. So Reldon said, yeah, but if you, but if you see, if you get them both, get them both, you know, if they split up on you when you got one going this way and one going that way, you can't start to chase one than the other. Forget that part. Then you can take them down. Even if you don't take them with the first shot, you take them down. They don't get out of the house. They don't get a chance to get to that wire. The phone, you know, what I'm saying. And Gallow says, all right, all right. Then worse, I'll have to dump it. That's all. It's just figuring out what to do with it. It's kind of an inconvenience is all it is. So now that you're talking about specifics of the job. And he said, yeah, now what are we talking about? Gallow S. You know, you show me a lot of figures before. So what are we talking about? Reldon had shown, had written down and showed him during the window visit later earlier. Yeah. You're talking about the ring alone is worth 100,000. Bobby said the ring alone. But she's wearing a hundred thousand dollars. So this guy said she's going to have this. And he said, she wears it all the time. She wears it to bed. She takes it off maybe to watch dishes. You know, the jewelry. She's got a got a star sapphire that's 40 carrots surrounded in diamonds. Rich. What is that? The fucking the one from the Titanic? It's a crazy 40 carrots. She's got, you're talking about another hundred that's probably not 40 carrots. No way. She's got, you're talking about another hundred thousand dollars minimum worth of jewelry. You're talking about a minimum. You're talking about retail $250,000 of jewelry wholesale. So Gallow says, what about the cash in the house? And he said, you might get lucky and find some cash. It'd probably be in her pocketbook. She didn't have any other hiding places that I know of. And Gallow said, sounds strange. She must be a weirdo. And he said, she has, don't worry. So they discuss how he got, how the aunt got her money and all that kind of shit. And Reldon also tells Gallow to contact his wife Judy when he was planning to do the hit just to make sure that both his aunt and her male companion were home since they traveled a lot. So now he's brought his wife into a harder conspiracy as well. Anytime he said, quote, anytime after May 1st, it's your party. Your party. Your party. He said, you might have difficulty moving a 40-karat staff fire given its size. And you know, but here's a name of a fence in Chicago that might be able to handle it through his wife. My wife knows some people. Yeah. Yeah. So Gallow said, you got no qualms about this broad now, like killing her. Yeah. And he said, I would have done it myself. What qualms? And he said, well, you know, what's why I asked if she's a relative? He's like, you know, mine sort of show how cold she is. He said, she's an aunt, but only by marriage, which that's not true. Actually, she's actually related to that. But he saw this Italian guy being like, you want to kill your aunt? That's fucked up. You know, you get that to tell you. No, no, no, by marriage. Don't worry. And she's a real bitch, quote, unquote. He said, you know, she's, she uses that money. She makes my mother's life miserable. See, I don't, I don't depend. pen donner. Yes you do. He said in all these other people, like every year, she gives them a couple thousand dollars for Christmas and does her bit, but she dribs and drabs it out so she can control them. And then if you don't do something she wants, oh, you're not getting your check this month. She told me once I said to her, you know what you can do with that fucking check? Stick it up your ass. I may blow it in a poker game one night. Oh, he's going to be a hard ass about this. You ray. Yeah. Hey, how dare you only give me two grand this month. Fuck you. You scumb, like, wow, Reldon said, that's why I'd say she'd be the first one that they would come to. I'm barely speaking, I'm barely on speaking terms with her. He said that she had previously spent $75,000 for an initial retainer from her lawyers for his lawyers. He said it came from his own funds, which is a complete load of poor money. He didn't have $75,000 fucking dollars. So anyway, it goes on and on and on. Reldon said, there's no way I could have set up an airtight alibi and do this thing the same time. That's why I'm telling you and that's why and that and they would have been dead in my ass. I don't know what that means. Dead on my ass. Dead in my ass. Dead in my up in my ass. Yeah. Gallo said you must have a good rep and he said, yeah, I do. I've had a long run for years and they knew I was doing shit. I was living on top of the world and never done no time and then everything fell at once and I've been doing time for the last fucking 10 years or more. So anyway, that's that's what we're going to talk about. He just completely, you know, whatever he wouldn't talk about the exact details of his murders. That's why he's over and over and over again. He's got another murder to worry about here. Yeah. So yeah, he even talks about I can help you with a lawyer. I can do all this shit. So anyway, this is what's going on. So later on, a jury's going to hear four hours of this shit. Okay. March 15, 16, 1977, Reldon wrote two letters in this week here. One indicated his plans for his aunt were progressing smoothly. The other discussed progress with his lawyers and progress toward his aunt's murders. We don't know the actual text of those letters, but that was the gist of it. 1977, March 18. That's when authorities place a tap on Judy's phone, his wife four days later, Reldon's lawyers visited him at Trenton. Okay. To tell him that they put a wiretap on wife and they got a bunch of information. March 30, 1977, he's arrested while already in prison for conspiring to murder his aunt and her companion. Right. So he's already now he's indicted and there's that April 11, 1977. He's got no lawyer as attorney with true from the case because he's got no money. He's got no money. So he wrote to the prosecutor's office that he would continue without counsel. Three days later, the Williams brothers were transferred to another facility for their own safety. April 21, 1977, they indict him on five counts, two counts of advocating the death of Lillian Booth, two counts of advocating the death of Misha Davic and one count of conspiracy to murder them both. Okay. He said, this is his excuse. It was a hoax. The whole thing was bullshit. I was just trying to needle the prosecutor. I was just fucking with him. Frustrate them by giving him evidence of a conspiracy to commit murder. That's not frustrating. That's handing him a gift. That's just giving him more work. You might as all had a dozen roses delivered to his door. Thanks. Is all a hoax? You give him a slam dunk. Wow. That is all a hoax. That is, um, all right. That's some shit here. Then Lillian came to court. She sat with him in court right behind him. She never removed him from her will and she wrote a sentence and said, quote, I did not believe my nephew would hurt me nor do I today. She thought it was all bullshit, even though she listened to the fucking four hours of tapes. Still didn't buy it. Now investigators believe from the beginning that everything he's done is sexual motives. It's all sexual. Rape of Susan, the pantyhose, the method. Self-granification. He likes to choke women and rape them. That's what he does. Jewelry was taken, but then it wasn't taken off. Susan Reeve and it just doesn't, he can get money. So it doesn't make sense. One guy said he just felt animosity toward women and I think that this hatred caused him to reach out and rape. Reach out and rape someone. That was a bad commercial. They really, AT&T got rid of that one or MCI, whatever it was. They're like, this isn't, this isn't good, right? It's a positive at all. I feel, I mean, they're a small group. It's a really small audience we're playing to here. We run everyone. We use our phone. He really was going to kill her. Yeah, yeah. Then he became the chief suspect. William Prendergast, the railway treatment is director who championed him. They asked him about it and he said, Bob Reldon is a brilliant man. That was his response. Brilliant man. Okay. So trial number one is the ant-lillian plot. Uh-huh. Because that's what they do first. They have a shitload of evidence on tape. It's a stronger case. Yeah. So, um, apparently, uh, Lillian was worth millions. He was facing murder charges and needed big time, a big time attorney killing her would get some money. That's the whole motive here. So all you really have to play is the goddamn tapes tapes and you got pretty much everything here. The jury deliberates for about four hours over two days, which seems like too long and they convicted him on all five counts. Yeah. Uh, Barber, his buddy there was convicted on the single conspiracy count and, uh, Reldon faces a maximum of 63 years for this. The judge sentences him to use may fuck off. Um, 20 to 25 years. Hmm. Barber got two to three years. Yeah. Now that's 20 to 25 years. He's already serving time for burglary and he's got two murder trials now coming up as well. Two murder charges. Lillian, um, went home to Alpine. Didn't change her will a fucking drop left in the name. Yep. So right away, he's tried before the trial, he's trying to say, well, both bodies were found in New York's and New Jersey doesn't have a jurisdiction. Uh, jurisdiction over this and all that kind of thing. But they said that both of them were from New Jersey taken in a car. There is evidence at the Ants house sent evidence that they were there. So there was plenty of evidence to think they were killed in Jersey and dumped there. So it's Jersey's case, basically. Um, then there was severance. He wanted two separate trials, one for each Susan. Oh, because he didn't want one jury hearing about the other murder. Yeah. While they were deciding the court said, no, said no, both victims were in their 20 similar size taken from the same area found nude and isolated spots close together in New York, same murder weapon, same MO fractured high-oid bones. Uh, the judge wrote the manner of these two murders and the disposal of the victims at, in the case, at, at the bar is so unusual and distinctive as to mark the crime as having been committed by a single individual. Okay. So that's that one trial to do a Susan's the two right, the twosons. Uh, first murder trial here begins. Um, it's largely circumstantial. Uh-huh. Um, the ring thing that they never found people's recollections of the ring, the sandblasting mask near the bus stop hairs in a station wagon, a diary with one day missing. Yeah. Not a lot going on here. Um, he has excuses as well. Sure. Um, he's got plenty of excuses. Um, she had reasons that his car would be seen with these people. Yeah, he said that Reldon approached to, to sell the unique engage ring purchased in London. Uh, the defense position was that a ring, it was a ring that looked like hers, not her ring. Okay. Very specific ring that he happened to try to sell right after she disappeared, but it's just a coincidence. Uh, the mask also, they said, there's plenty of masks out there. Okay. They said a rented mask is a common object. Many painters rent them. A mask near a bus stop proves that somebody was near a bus stop. So the prosecution said, well, this particular mask had been rented by the one recently paroled sex offender who had a gap in his diary out from that day. So then they bring in the inmates who he told all about this. They made sworn statements saying that he told us all about these murders. Now the defense absolutely jumps all over them as they're inmates. That's what it is. And they're liars and they're doing this for their own, whatever. So, um, a jury gets in. They cannot decide it is deadlocked. A judge declares a mistrial. God damn it. Apparently it was seven to five favoring conviction. How does this guy keep doing it? Keeps good lawyers. Um, one observer said, quote, he made an impression on many that encountered him. Good-looking young man, well-dressed, well-to-do family, polished, charming, looked like an everyday upper-class gentleman. He had a very commanding presence. It's all this. One said he was judged by many to have been the attorney and his attorney was thought to have been the defendant when they walked in. They thought he was the attorney by the way he carried himself. Wow. That's something. Second murder trial, they fucking redo it, October 79. Sherry Ann Stevens here during this is a supporter he gains during this trial. We'll get back to her, a woman who likes him. So they're trying to figure out, trying to decide whether the jury can hear about basically a signature, saying that signature and a murder is like a fingerprint on it. Same signature. So they were trying to figure that out. Also, during this whole thing, a juror tells the judge that he received a letter in the mail inside was $100 cash, $100 cash, and a promise of $900 more. I guess apparently it was contingent on him being convicted. So if you convict this guy, it'll be another $900 for you. Damn it. So that's interesting. Either way, it was a sealed envelope of cash, so the judge met individually with each juror to find out who had seen or heard about the letter. Another bribery letter was found delivered to a different jurors. In the end, five letters are recovered altogether. Only two had been seen by the jurors and the prosecutor, of course, accused Robert of fucking sending these. He was ever charged with sending them. The judge dismissed some jurors, but denied a mistrial, and then sequestered the rest of the panel and had their unopened mail confiscated by the court before they could see it just in case. October 15th, 1979, this is fucking amazing. I'm telling you, Ted Bundy fucking, these guys should have been ripping around the car together all over the country, like roadtrip, and they would have loved it. Tom and Louise. Oh, totally. Hold on the hands. Reldin was being held in a room off the courtroom dressing for court. They let him go in there. According to a summary here, the guard who was guarding him Joseph Volcolo didn't frisk him after he dressed. Okay. Just didn't do it. Just have it. Whatever. Okay. Reldin pulled out a chemical spray described in different accounts as mace or tear gas and sprayed the officer in the eyes, took him down somehow. He had a key to unlock his handcuffs, smuggled it somehow, got it. You don't know how, but he got his handcuffs off. And one person said, my law clerk came running in, locked the two doors and told me, stay where you are. I don't know what's going on. What's going on is he jumped out of fucking window, just like Ted Bundy, same shit. He leaped about 35 feet from a three story window. Third story. What the fuck? Yeah. But then another person said it was a second story window from the documentary. Someone said he jumped out the second story window broke broke broke, broke both ankles and still ran ran away now, non ankles. The crazy part is they, Jonathan Haynes is there for his wife's murder trial. He said, I ran down the stairs of the main part of the courthouse out into the car park. I was running, trying to find the guy. I was going to get him. Oh, what is that? Oh, fuck that. Yeah. Both my ankles work. Both my normally weak English ankles they work now. They're only made for soccer now for jumping out of things or any other sports. He did not get to him. Did he say it was the third story because isn't that the third story from British and Britain? The second story? Yeah. We figured it's not that. It's just different accounts. I thought it's what I thought at first to him. Maybe he meant that, but no, it's not that. Yeah. We learned that from crime and sports. He get, Reldon gets to a car. He carjacks somebody and takes their goddamn car. Oh, my God. With police chasing him, he crossed into New York state. And finally near Tuxedo, New York, the stolen car goes off the road into a ditch. He tried to get away. He's going to Canada. Who the fuck knows? He was taken into custody, taken to the hospital in Tuxedo. Wow. He was out for about an hour at large. He appeared back in court the next day in a wheelchair. So the verdict comes in. This is two days after his escape, which, by the way, doesn't look great to the jury. Not much. No. Looks kind of bad. We were here. Where were you, Dickhead? You know, thanks a lot, making us feel like we're fucking, we don't matter here. Appreciate it. They find him guilty of first degree murder in the death of Susan Reeve and guilty of second degree murder in the death of Susan Haynes. Oh, sure. How they got to that. But they got to that. The judge said, quote, words are inadequate to describe the abject evil of these depraved acts of murder. He also called him his outrageous record and especially heinous and cruel and depraved manner of the killings. You, sir, may fuck off life sentence for Susan Reeve's murder. And a consecutive 30 year sentence for Susan Haynes' second degree murder. Life plus 30. Eat, Dick's. Get out of that one, shit bag. Then he was indicted for the escape and the assault on the officer with tear gas, the car jacking, the robbery. Yeah. I'll get you a whole bunch. Well, he's convicted for those and sentenced to use, sir, may fuck off 22 years. Again, consecutive to the life and the 30. What is a, oh man, ah, like plus 52, holy shit, and hour gets you 22 years. Wow. Now, 18 months after the window incident, he was taken from Trenton State Prison to the emergency room at St. Francis Hospital in Trenton in the hospital lobby. Police found Sherry Ann Stevens, the chick he made friends with at that fucking trial. She was this a supporter. She had a bag in it were extra clothes and a loaded 20 gauge shotgun. How big is this bag? This bitch was going to break him from the hospital. Yep. They described it as a sought-off shotgun and a shopping bag. Oh, Jesus. The authorities knew about it and she was arrested before she could reach it. They figured it out. So that's pretty crazy. She plead, she pled guilty to conspiracy to commit an escape and possession of a weapon for an unlawful purpose. He got five years with three years of parole in eligibility and he gets another 15 years for that. May 11th, 1982, both murder convictions are thrown out. Why? Reverse. This is fucking insane. Apparently, they did not agree that the 1967 rape and the 1971 knife attack were distinctive enough to count as a signature for him. Told about past crimes that shouldn't have been there as what they said. The court said we cannot view the error as harmless when as here the potential for prejudice in having two women describe defendants brutal rape and assumed rape is so obvious. So the New Jersey Supreme Court declined to review the reversal in 1982. Convictions are gone. He's still in prison. Okay. We're wrong. They're going to try him again, but the court suppresses the results of the vacuum sweep from his car without it. The hair evidence is gone. So they appeal to the Supreme Court who says, fuck that. Hears back in. Let's run it. So they have another murder trial for him. Oh boy. Another murder trial for him. It's fucking crazy. They convict him again. Okay. One degree murder for Susan Haynes, first degree murder for Susan Reeve, exact same thing. Sentencing you, sir, may fuck off life sentence for Reeve consecutive 30 year term for Susan Haynes. Exactly. Sentencing. Oh, fuck yourself. Just waste a bunch of money. Then during appeals, it's affirmed in 1989 Supreme Court denies to review it. In the 1990s, he tries to change his name, the prison administrator until '93 was a man named Howard L. Byer, a petition to change his legal name. He wanted to be Howard B. Jr. and the B stood for buyer. He wanted to be Howard Byer Jr., just a fuck with the guy. Yeah. They said, you can't do that. He said, well, it has nothing to do with the warden. They were like, really? You can name yourself the ward, just has nothing to do with it. The prosecutor said, yeah, it does. So New Jersey normally, you can call yourself whatever you want. And courts deny formal name changes only for fraud. And they said that this could help him hatch another escape plot. So he doesn't get to be Howard Byer. They don't want that. They said, one ACLU representative said, if you wanted to change his name to Mickey Mouse, you might have had an easier time doing it. Well, yeah, because that's even more easy. Well, that's easier to find when you escape. Right. And guy called himself Mickey Mouse. So anyway, he would stay that name. March 27th, 2001. Here, he's 60 years old. He's cited for an attempted or planned escape on this day and given 270 days at administrative segregation. He appeals a bunch more based on a lot of different factors. From 2001 to 2004, he's asking. and for DNA testing of the hairs vacuumed by his car, a vacuum from his car, there's a hearing denying the motion. They said that the evidence of guilt is so overwhelming that even if they found those hairs didn't belong to them, it'd still be guilty. - True, true. - So cares basically. It's just, they said the hairs would not exculpate him, rather at best, might indicate that those particular hairs were not those of both victims. - Yeah, it might tell you that there's another person that we need to look for. - Yeah, no shit, another victim. - November 22nd, 2007, Aunt Lillian's dead at 92. - Yeah. - Her estimated value is about $220 million at this point. She leaves Robert income from a trust worth $8.9 million. - She gives this fucking idiot. - Yep. His mother Marie was already dead, so her share passed to him as well. - Another $8 million. - I think something like that. So he's got all this fucking money, obviously the richest guy in Jersey, present basically. Now her longtime companion though, Misha Dabbitch pursued a claim against the estate and reached his own settlement as well, like I should get something because he got left out. So they said, yeah, you should get something. So 2008, the Reeve family decides, we're gonna fucking sue this guy. - Yeah, he's got money for suing. - Yep, so they sue him. Now the problem is she's been dead for 33 years. New Jersey law passed in 2000 had removed the statute of limitations for murder victims, but only for economic loss claims. Claims for pain and suffering still at a two year deadline. So they went back to the lawmakers who wrote the law, got a sworn statement from the bill's original sponsor, saying they never meant to take to make that distinction. So a new bill to fix it was passed in 2009. Okay, now July 2009, he was cited for refusing a work program assignment and for tattooing himself or self mutilation. - All right. - He also took programs, anti-violence courses, education, over 30 years of counseling with chaplains and other people. September of 2010, the party settled for about $10 million. - Wow. - The Reeve estate would receive 700,000 upfront, plus the income from the $9 million trust for as long as Reldon lives. - Oh, shit. - Yeah, Reldon kept about $200,000 plus $2,000, $80 a year, deposited into his prison account, and $50,000 a year for life if he was ever paroled. - Oh my God. - Yeah, which he's not gonna be paroling. - He's just gonna have all this money sitting there? - It's fucking crazy. And they said that they ended up giving it all to a scholarship, they didn't keep any of this fucking money. They kept it all, they gave it all away. The parole year is here. He became eligible for parole in 2008. He's denied in 2009. Now, they've rated him as a moderate risk, a psychological evaluation. Well, all of his programs have dropped his risk assessment level two, but they keep looking at his shit and they're like, nope. - Not a good man. - Yeah. Nope. And also, over time, he changed it. He started saying he did actually kill those women 'cause he had to admit it, but he described it as spur of the moment. It was on impulse and they were like, no. He got so mad at one point during his hearing. He said, you should have killed me if you wanted to get rid of me. He yelled at the fucking parole people here. 2023, the parole board denied again on a 36 month term. They said actual violent behavior by Reldon has not been demonstrated in four decades. That's what they said, but they also said refusal to consider a more congregate setting which made release hard to support. - He's never shown that he's violent wall in prison. He does it when he gets out. - Exactly. That's the whole point. - So anyway, that we know of, he is pretty fucked. He's 84 years old in 2025 and he's gone for this. He's got hearing loss in a large prostate, arthritis and everything and cataracts and he's not eligible yet for compassionate release, which is for older people. - That's two or three million dollars. - And they're probably right. - Think so. Now here is the main thing I wanted to get to also. When you look this guy up, if you look him up on murder pedia, it says his victim count is six to eight victims and lists all these people. He did not kill these people. That is ridiculous. It's been falsely attributed. They tried to link him to six more killings. They even said one account of him said he liked to pick his victims off in pairs. - Oh, what? - There's all these different things. Mary Ann Pryor and Lorraine Kelly, 17 and a 16 year old, who disappeared from North Bergen in '74, their bodies were found that same year. He was in prison during that. So he definitely, they had just, they put that on his murder pedia. He was in prison. In April, 2021, a guy known as Richard Coddingham, known as the torso of their blood guilty to those murders. We heard about that. Doreen Carlucci, 14 in Joanne Delardo, 15, vanished from a church youth center in December of '74. He was in prison for that too. It's still listed under his shit on murder pedia. Fix your shit, murder pedia. Another convicted killer, Robert Zyrinsky, was long considered the prime suspect and died without being charged. Also Denise Evans and Carol Hedgesbeth, both 15 disappeared from Wilmington, Delaware and were found shot in Salem County, New Jersey. Redland, Redland was free then, but they were shot, not strangled and not raped. So it makes, doesn't seem like that's his thing. So anyway, Susan Hain's body was set home to England where she was buried in the same church where she got married outside there, the 13th century one. Yep. So yep, he said, her husband said, I'm extremely proud of Susan and I know she'll be well remembered. He said, to be confronted with murder, it stays with me for the rest of my life. I'm nearly 70 and it's still there. It's fucked up, yeah. The book is called The Charmer, the true story of Robert Reldon, rapist murder and millionaire and the women who fell victim to his allure. Why don't you just have the whole book be the title? That's too long of a title. It's by Charles Buckley and Richard Moody. This book once upon a time. And they said they never interviewed him. And they said, "Why?" And he said, "Well, I knew if I interviewed him, he'd lie." But that's the point. He'd get the lies and then he'd show what a piece of shit he is. Yeah, also it shows a lot psychologically how he lies and what he lies about. It's interesting, but they didn't do it, but that's fine. The book was very good though, very thorough. And there you go, everybody, though, that is Robert Reldon and Susan Reeve and Susan Hain's and the Susan Strangulations. That's fucking crazy. That's never happened before. 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And on top of that, being add free, you also get a shout out at the end of the show, which is right now. Jimmy hit me with the names of the most wonderful goddamn people in the world who would do nothing that happened this episode, really, never, never hit me with those people right fucking now. So is that going to prove sort of Roy Coots, I'm going to assume? Roy. Yeah. Otherwise it's. Roy. Plural Dirties. Gary Howard is in London. Gary? Oh, I. Oh, Gary. He's got one of those. Happy hours in Midland, Texas. Atlanta Zemmell, Atlanta's, Atlanta Zemmell is in Tokyo. Thomas Woodward is also a trucker. He didn't get to tell me where he is. The fun, Tommy. Shout it out. Truckers. What you got? Addy Murphy is somewhere also. The Curtis is in tree fort. Jenna Coon's daughter Olivia turned 18. Happy birthday Olivia. Happy birthday. Happy birthday. What a great day. Congrats. And also Carolyn Shellhorn, thank you. for everything you're doing. Other producers this week, Liz Vasquez, Peyton Meadows, Janice Hill, a list of try-on, Karen Z, Annie Johnston, Nicholas Renette, Andrea B. Mackenzie Bainbridge. William Tru. One second. I just want to say we wanted to say this to everybody because otherwise it gets staggered on the releases. Oh, yeah. And this will also, same shots are on small tap murder this week for both. Thank you to everyone who came out this week in San Jose in Sacramento. Unbelievable. It's incredible this last week, and thank you guys for really, really excellent, some of the nicest people and great crowds. Great crowds. Just want to really say. Hang on. Every word. Listen to the show. Laughter. Really great. Laughter was needed. Fucking lovely. Pegg, some dudes afterward. It was great. That was, yeah, that's an inside joke if you're at the Sacramento show and, yeah, again, it's a joke. I'm sorry. A lady wore a shirt that she enjoys pegging men. Yeah, that's like that, right? Right in the foot. Good for her. Ah. Got a love deal. William Tru. Jennifer Jane Courtney Carter, Deb Engelberg, Latisha Perez, Latisha, perhaps Ding Dong Ditch. What a fun game. TV, uh, ShowDorf Media, Phil B. Amanda with no last name, Charlotte Beatty, Pamela Catherine, just Josh Belfie, uh, Andrew Dewey, Scarlett D'Arc, uh, Zach Murphy, Beatriz Perez, J.B. Hope that's some move, Connor Stallnecker, uh, Jamie Stanaway. Tim with no last name. Kelsey Taylor, Jennifer Moore, Samantha Simpson, Isaac Barahas, Amish, Mr. H. Forty Three. I don't know. I don't know. Todd Burton, Jordan West, Carolyn Shellhorn. I think I said that. Yeah, Carolyn. Thank you. And with no last name, Megan Shumway, Mary Woodbury, uh, Jacqueline Terry, AJ Nurban, Lucas King, Kayla Howell, uh, Kylie Harvey, uh, Ena, Ena Koei-Visto, uh, Holly Lawson, Chloe, uh, Chloe Ali Sarnock, Heather Cough, Menlinzi Blackshaw, Tyler Reedy, Erica Pratt, Michael Griffith, Amanda with no last name, Allison Cisek, uh, Heather with no last name, Mick Scoops, Gary Locker, Ron Ernest, Landon Sky Photography, Kelly with no last name John Joyce, Josie Joyce Hoffman, uh, Galey Steven Chadborn. That's a tough one. That's a one last name Chad, yeah, what's it? Yeah. All right, Brent. Chad team. Uh, Sean Tay with no last name, Kelly with no last name, David Harris, Haley with no last name, Scott Foltz, Brandon Dostalo, Noah, uh, Noah, Noah, Noah Simone, Noah, Stephanie Russell, Tina with no last name, Steve, the sealant, uh, Paula Mayfield, uh, Tori Staseak, Todd S. 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