298. The Case That Proved Words Can Kill - The Conrad Roy Story

You're listening to an ONO Media podcast. Hey everybody, welcome back to the podcast. This is Murder With My Husband. I'm Peyton Moreland. And I'm Garrett Moreland. And he's the husband. And I'm the husband. Welcome back. Thank you for being here. Another Monday, another episode. Hope everyone has some fun plans for the holidays. Peyton and I will be not doing much. We'll be recording, sticking around, hanging out, talking to you guys, hanging out with Daisy. I think we might see some family, but other than that, we're just chilling. So hopefully you guys have something fun planned, hanging out with family, hanging out alone, hanging out with us, whatever it is. Yeah. Dan is coming to me. Oh, San is. I heard San is going to give me a billion dollars. FYI, that was a joke. We did not win the lottery and Garrett is not getting a billion dollars. I have to clarify. Listen guys, this can be my 10 seconds because I don't want it to be too long. But last time when I said I won the lottery, I still get messages. I thought it was obvious that I was being sarcastic, but I'm not lying when I probably got, I got, okay, I got thousands of messages, thousands of people asking for their 10 or 20 grand or whatever. I mean, how can you blame me? You're the one who said, if you want to-- I understand this, but I feel like it was very obvious that I was kidding. I feel like it was very obvious. It was not because so many-- I'm going to have to grab that clip and post it somewhere because listen. You guys have been listening to this podcast for a while now. I feel like you guys know when I'm being sarcastic. Anyways, I'm not getting a billion dollars. I don't have a billion dollars. Not even close. Not even nothing. I wish I did, but I don't. So yeah, I guess that's my 10 seconds. We've just been working. We might have a cool announcement here in a couple of weeks. So stay tuned. We can't say much about it yet. But we might be able to next episode. Oh, people we ran into are people that came up to us and said hi. I think her name was Kelsey. Okay. I thought there was more, but we've been running around that I can't remember. Oh, I don't know. Maybe not, but Kelsey. I think it was Kelsey. Yes, we were eating. And she came up and said hi. Yes. Anyways, come say hi to us if you see us. We love it. Some people messaged us. I'm like, I saw you, but I don't want to bother you. You're not bothering us. Nothing's bothering us. Even if I'm eating food, you can come say hi. We live the fangirl life. Okay. We're just, we're just people. I love to fangirl. We're all just people hanging out, trying to survive, trying to live, trying to do our best. So on that note, let's get into today's case. ABCnews.co.com, bbc.com, mamamia.com, aetv.com, abc7.com, cosmopolitan.com, cbsnews.com, CNN.com, and Supreme Court.gov. If you've seen the title of this episode, you might know this story. I think it definitely has some infamy. But I know for sure that Garrett doesn't know this story. And I'm honestly intrigued to see how he's going to respond. Let's hear it. Just a reminder for those listening for the first time. I never know. I don't know what case Peyton is about to tell me. I don't know anything about these cases. Every once in a while, I will know a thing or two. But for the most part, I don't know anything. So just an FYI, just a reminder, we can keep going. All of his reactions are raw and unscripted. Just sure I'm not scripted at all, which is kind of scary. Now, before we get into it, this episode includes discussion of suicide and suicidal ideation. So if you are someone you know is struggling, please contact the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline by dialing 988 or text strength to the crisis text line at 741741. You can also go to 988 lifeline.org. And as always, please listen with care. Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me. I can't tell you how many times that was repeated on the playground as a child. And unfortunately, the older I get, the more I start to wonder why adults were telling us this, because words are powerful and they do cut deep, especially in the age of social media, where people can live behind the anonymity of a screen and say whatever they want to complete and total strangers. I have personally had this happen to me. I've had people that have never met me say things. I can only imagine how much worse it feels when you are hearing terrible things over and over again from someone that you care about. Because sticks and stones can be considered weapons, and this case will prove words can be too. And when used in a certain way, you start to blur the line are, can words even be considered a weapon for murder? Now today, I want to introduce you to a 18-year-old young man named Conrad Roy. Now Conrad grew up in Fair Haven, Massachusetts. It's about an hour and a half outside of Boston. It was in the late 90s and early 2000s. He was the oldest kid in the family with two younger sisters named Morgan and Camden. And according to Conrad's parents, he was a happy, sensitive and kind little boy. But right as Conrad was reaching puberty, a big life event kind of turned his world upside down. His parents filed for divorce. Now Conrad tried his best to manage this as a early teenager tried to stay on course academically and athletically. He did maintain a 3.8 GPA. He took honors classes. He did everything from track to baseball. But being on the water actually seemed to be Conrad's favorite. It was his real escape from his life. And he began studying navigation in his free time, taking three months of night classes, and actually eventually got his captain's license. He also worked part-time with his father's family business at a marine salvage company, rescuing disabled and wrecked boats on the water. And on top of that, Conrad had been accepted to Flitchberg State University in Massachusetts. This was about 100 miles away from home and he got a full scholarship. So life really was kind of going on for him after high school. His plan was to study business. But life wasn't all smooth sailing for Conrad Roy. Conrad had been struggling with depression and social anxiety through a lot of his teenage years. He had trouble sleeping and focusing. And while his family sought treatment for him, it really never seemed to do the trick. There was one thing though that Conrad appeared really excited about during his teenage years. And that was a young woman named Michelle Carter. Now in 2012, 16-year-old Michelle and 17-year-old Conrad met while both of them were vacationing in Naples, Florida. Now Conrad was there visiting relatives and Michelle was down there vacationing with her family. And as you know, a vacation love like they meet there and then they're going to leave. But while they're there, they can't help but fall for each other. And apparently Conrad's sisters had actually met Michelle before since she only lived an hour away from them in the town of Plainfield, Massachusetts. And people who knew Michelle for a while, like her softball coach said that Michelle was always kind and supportive. She was the ideal teammate. Someone who always had nice things to say never really got upset. She seemed to be well liked at school. She was voted class clown and most likely to brighten your day. So on paper, she kind of seemed to be exactly what Conrad needed in his life at this time. So was it fate that they had met by chance on this vacation? So after that trip, Michelle and Conrad keep in touch. They would text and call each other all of the time. Again, this is 2012, like texting is at its peak. And that's when Conrad learned Michelle had actually quietly been dealing with her own struggles. Michelle herself said she had battled in eating disorder over the years and despite being more extroverted, she spent a lot of time alone retreating socially. When she did socialize, people said she was very eager to please and worked hard to seek the approval of other kids. But she was struggling with her mental health in other ways. Taking antidepressants and spending time in a psychiatric facility to treat her eating disorder. So in many ways, Conrad and Michelle could relate to each other. It's kind of like they were fighting similar battles around the same age and the same time in life. And they were We found solace in that, but things only got harder for Conrad as time goes on after meeting Michelle. I don't know where this is going yet. So while Michelle offered a supportive and empathetic ear, Conrad's mental health just really didn't seem to be improving. Later in 2012, 17-year-old Conrad attempted an overdose right after leaving a treatment center for depression. Conrad said they saw this as a cry for help rather than Conrad actually really wanting to die. They felt that things could only improve from here, and at some point things were starting to look up. Conrad was going out to parties, he was hanging out with more friends, he did seem to be in better spirits after that attempt, and he was still in touch with Michelle. While they had only met in person, about five times, the two of them spoke by phone and text constantly. And by the summer of 2014, Michelle was kind of looking to label their relationship by asking, "Are we basically dating like I want to be able to say that I'm your girlfriend?" And Conrad replied, "Yes, you are my girlfriend." And while it's good to have someone who knows what you're going through, in this case, it kept them from healing in the ways that they needed. And eventually, Conrad's mental health went back on the decline. At summer, Conrad's social anxiety had gotten so crippling that he decided he didn't want to leave home and go to college. So instead, he put off his studies at Flitchberg State University entirely. And unfortunately, things were never going to get back on track. In June of 2014, Conrad was recording his inner monologue on video. He was speaking about coping with his depression, about not feeling comfortable in his own skin, how he needed to relax. In one clip, he said, "The sooner I like myself, the better I'll be." And it appeared that Conrad was making efforts towards that. On July 12th, Conrad, his mother, Lynn, and his two sisters went to horse and neck beach in West Port, Massachusetts to just hang out. Lynn, his mom, and Conrad walked along the beach that day and ended up having an intimate conversation about his future, what he was going to do about college, a job, all of it. And Lynn reassured him, "Hey, don't worry, everything's going to be okay, everything is going to work out." Okay, I'm just trying to figure out this is going, but you're giving me nothing so far. Now that same afternoon at the beach, Conrad's sisters saw him kind of sitting alone quietly focused on his phone. He was definitely texting someone that day at the beach, and he looked upset. But afterwards, they went to get some ice cream, and then Conrad seemed to be in better spirits. Either way, the family packed up and went home. And around 6 p.m., Conrad says he's going to meet up with a friend. And Lynn asked, "Are you going to be back in time for dinner?" And he said, "Hmm, probably not." And Conrad hopped in his truck and drove away from home. Now around 10.30 p.m. or 11 p.m. that night, Lynn texts Conrad and says, "Hey, are you going to make it home?" But there's no response. And at some point that evening, Conrad's sister Camden also receives a text, and this one is from Michelle Carter, this girl who he's known for a really long time, who he's kind of saying is his girlfriend. And Michelle is texting Conrad's sister and saying, "Hey, have you heard from Conrad?" So with still no word from Conrad, and Michelle saying she's not getting any text from him either, by the middle of the night, Lynn is worried. So she's texting him again and again and still not getting that. Okay, that's not good, yeah. Right. Conrad isn't home by the following morning, Lynn goes by Conrad's best friend, Ariana's house. And when she learns that he's not there either, that's when the panic sets in. In one last ditch effort, the family drops by their dad's house, and there's no sign of Conrad there either. Lynn says it is in this moment that she fills this rush of energy past through her body. She could just sense at this point that something bad had happened. Yeah, especially considering where he's at mentally. Right. And word basically spreads that no one can find Conrad. Now later that day, police do find Conrad's pickup truck. It is parked in a parking lot outside of a cameart. So police go up to the truck trying to find if this is inclusives to where he's at, but they actually discover that inside in the driver's seat is Conrad Roy. He's in his now found truck, and he is no longer breathing. His cell phone is on the seat right next to him in the truck. And his cause of death is later listed as carbon monoxide poisoning. Okay. Conrad did leave a note behind which the family weren't at like that all surprised to find. And in it, he apologized to his family and asked them to quote, live life to the fullest. Now later that day at around 813 PM, Lynn receives a text from Michelle, her son's girlfriend saying, I'm so very sorry, Conrad meant so much to me. I just figured out just figured out what's going on. I'm not going to say it because some of the listeners might not know, but I think I just figured out what's going on. I want to know it's okay. I think it's along the lines. I'll just say this so it doesn't spoil it too much. If I have figured out what's happening, it's it's going to come back to Michelle. Okay. Okay. I'm sure Lynn was flooded with text messages like this one over the next few days and weeks. So Michelle's text likely didn't stand out at all. What seemed strange to a lot of people though was how Michelle showed up and acted at the funeral. Now keep in mind, most people that knew Conrad didn't really know Michelle. Remember they were long distance, he had met her on vacation. They'd never really met up in person. So he was kind of just this, this girl that it was just a long distance relationship. Yeah. It was in his life, but he also hung out with a lot of other girls like he had other friends at his school. And I want to clarify again here, at the point that he passes away, they have only met in person five times. So despite their conversation about being boyfriend and girlfriend recently, it seems like Conrad didn't really share that information with anyone in his life before his death. So despite the fact that he told her, yeah, you're my girlfriend. It's not like he told other people that Michelle was his girlfriend. Even his sisters and mother were really confused to learn that Michelle considered Conrad her boyfriend like when everything happens and Michelle becomes part of this grieving process, they are a little shocked at just how involved she is. And yet Conrad's best friend Arianna said that during the funeral, Michelle kind of rubbed everyone the wrong way because she looked like, quote, a grieving widow. She was sobbing loudly at his funeral, she was making a scene, he been mind this is a girl that almost everyone in this room has not met or really knew about. And of course, everyone grieves differently as you say being devil advocate. Right. She has been texting him. Doesn't mean anything. Yeah. Yeah. Even if they didn't see each other in person all that much, like they did have a close relationship. Yeah. So could she could this be real for sure. So of course, like we just said, everyone grew differently, but to some people at the funeral, this rubbed them the wrong way because it almost seemed like a performance or fake. I feel like one, this happens in almost every case that's where a husband or a wife kill a significant other, everyone's always like they were acting so weird at X and X. I feel like I've heard so many of these that someone's acting weird that if you for some reason ever die, I'm not going to know how to act right because all I'm going to be thinking about now. Everyone's looking at how I'm acting, everyone's looking at how I'm acting because we do this so much. And I think this is even weirder for everyone at Conrad's funeral because they don't even really know who this girl is. Yeah. And so I think at on that level, people are really judging. And this behavior doesn't really end here, okay. On the day after what would have been Conrad's 19th birthday, Michelle held a fundraiser in her town to honor his memory. She posted on Twitter quote, "such a beautiful soul gone too soon. I'll always remember your bright light and smile. You'll forever be in my heart. I love you, Conrad." And her fellow peers in her town were offering her endless sympathy and support. But the police had been investigating Conrad's death as they almost always do with a suicide case, especially a teen suicide case. And one of the first places they obviously checked was Conrad Roy's cell phone and the communications that he had had before he died. Oftentimes parents ask police to look into this because they are trying to pinpoint a trigger or just find answers. They're grieving, they're confused, they want answers. But here's the thing. Police come across something interesting when they look at Conrad's cell phone history. Not only had Michelle and Conrad spoke the night he died by suicide, she had sent him more than 80 text messages after his death. So she continues this communication. Oh, I know where the exactly this is going and this pisses me off. So some of them were apologies for not doing more to help him. Others were just confessions of love. But it was actually the messages that were sent before Conrad died that really set off alarm bells for investigators in this case and made them realize this is not a open and shut suicide investigation. So let me back up a little bit. We're gonna back up to shortly after Conrad and Michelle first met in 2012 and take a closer look on this relationship that developed before his death. Now, as I mentioned, the two were long distance. So texting was their primary form of communication and both of them were battling with mental health issues at the time. Now at first, Michelle really seemed to be encouraging Conrad to seek treatment. And when Conrad spoke about suicide in October of 2012, Michelle seemingly tried to talk him out of it in their communication. She sent him messages like you have so much to live for and Michelle kept suggesting ways for Conrad to get help. Apparently when she was about to go to a treatment center for her eating disorder, she told Conrad, hey, you should come with me. That way they could support each other if they were in the same place. It wouldn't be as scary. But Conrad supposedly rejected this offer. In one message, Michelle said to Conrad, quote, I'm trying my best to dig you out. To which Conrad replied, I don't want to be dug out, I want to die. So she's trying to dig him out of this hole, this dark hole he's in. Now from there, Conrad continued sending Michelle different ways he could potentially die by suicide. So from this point, it's safe to say that Michelle and Conrad's relationship is very open. Like they are confiding in each other. And Conrad is being very open with the darkness. He is battling. From this point, Conrad continued sending Michelle different ways that he could potentially die by suicide. And over time, according to these messages, it seems like the energy starts to shift with Michelle. Instead of trying to talk him out of this, help him out, dig him out of this hole, she slowly starts to encourage him. And by the summer of 2014, it started with things like, quote, if this is the only way that you think you're going to be happy, heaven will welcome you with open arms. But in the weeks leading up to Conrad's death, the two had exchanged more than 1,000 texts. And it's no longer like if you want to do this, it'll be OK. It's more like encouraging Conrad to go through with suicide. Do you have an example? Yeah, OK, OK. She's saying things like there's a point that comes where there isn't anything anyone can do to save you, not even yourself, and you've hit that point. And then another one where she's angry with him, she's fighting with him over the fact that he hasn't done it yet. She sends him in all caps. You keep pushing it off. You just said you were going to do it tonight. And now you're saying eventually, there's no way. Yes. This next exchange is a little long. But the text messages between these two is a major, major part of this case. And so I want to include a lot of them for context. That's insane. So like the first one you had to read, like the heaven will welcome you with open arms. Little weird, yeah, weird. Would I have like convicted someone off of that? No. Right. But now this is getting insane. Right. So one of the exchanges, here we go. Michelle says, quote, I think that your parents know you're in a really bad place. And I'm not saying they want you to do it. But I honestly feel like they can accept it. They know there is nothing they can do for you. They've tried helping. I mean, everyone's tried. But there's a point that comes where there isn't anything anyone can do to save you, not even yourself. And you've hit that point. And I think your parents know you've hit that point. You said, you said your mom saw a suicide thing on your computer and she didn't even say anything. I think she knows it's on your mind and she's preparing for it. Everyone will be sad for a while, but they'll get over it and move on. They won't be in depression. I won't let that happen. They know how sad you are and they know that you are doing this to be happy. And I think they will understand that and accept it. They will always carry you in their hearts. That is utterly heartbreaking for Conrad. And I wanna say-- Horrible, horrible, horrible. She's in mind as we are reading these. She is adding on to someone who was without Michelle in the picture, already struggling, battling these. He was already thinking, this was already on his mind. Yes. This is wild. And I wanna, his response to that huge long message is so telling about how often and how normal this type of conversation had become between them because he responds, "Ah, thank you, Michelle." Like, "Oh, that's nice of you for easing my mind that no one will really care if I do this." Oh my gosh, this makes me so sad. And when police dig further into the messages, they discover that Michelle eventually even helped him plan his suicide. They spoke in depth about methods. They eventually landed on carbon monoxide poisoning. Michelle even helped him with step-by-step instructions in the days before he died. And she helped him locate a generator. This is mind blowing, absolutely mind blowing. I mean, I knew it was coming to this. Like, I knew this is where it was going. I just didn't realize it was-- So obvious and horrible. Yeah, obvious. I thought maybe you would be a little more cryptic or no, she straight up is saying, yeah, you should go do it. And again, strangers tell people to do this and they do it because it's that hurtful. Words have that much impact. Now imagine someone that you have been texting that knows all of your secrets that is your best friend, your confidant, telling you to do this and helping you plan it and urging you and getting mad at you that you're not doing it when you said you would. I know, that's a horrible person. So horrible. She helped him locate the generator and a text from her to him said, quote, yeah, it will work. If you admit 3,200 ppm of it for five or 10 minutes, you will die within a half hour. You will lose consciousness with no pain. You just fall asleep and die. Okay. She's being his Google. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. They even spoke about a timeline in the hours before Conrad died. Around 3,45 on July 12th, Michelle told Conrad he had to do it when he got home from the beach that day. Remember his sister saw him looking a little sad on the beach texting someone pretty intently. She texts him during this time, quote, no more thinking. You need to just do it. Some of their final text messages to one another were before Conrad even left his house that night. Michelle told him to tell his mom that he was just gonna run out to the store and he told her when he was leaving the house and when he was almost at the Kmart parking lot. This isn't the last time they speak. When Conrad gets to the parking lot where this is going to happen, he calls Michelle around 7,12 pm. The two are on the phone together as he starts to follow her plan and fill the car with lethal use. And you guys, like, this is heartbreaking. It's horrible. Also, just to remind her again, I know Peyton mentioned it at the beginning, but for those who are struggling in any way, it's a reminder that this is a trigger warning and you don't need to finish this. there's no reason to keep listening to the case. - Just a reminder, because this one can be. I'm sure triggering for those who are struggling with the pressure. Obviously, we know that this case is going to turn into a trial or else I wouldn't be covering it, which is why it's in the true crime category and it brought up the question of how far is too far, can you hold someone responsible, which is why we're covering it, but yes, this is really intense stuff. This is heartbreaking. She's on the phone with him. He is actively dying, but at one point, during this conversation, Conrad gets out of the car. So he's in the car. He's on the phone with her and he has decided that he's changed his mind. He gets out of the car. No way. He's like telling her this is a mistake. I don't want to do this. And Michelle says get back in the car. This is a detail that was only discovered a long time later when Michelle actually texted other people saying, yeah, I was on the phone with him. He got out, but I told him to get back in because this is what he wanted. She explained to a friend that she heard him die. Oh my gosh. Life in like, life in prison. No, and it's her butts. She told another friend she could have stopped it because she was quote, on the phone with him and he got out of the car because it was working and he got scared. And I effing told him to just get back in is what she brags to another friend. So confused why? So again, this is all the aftermath. No one knows any of this. Everyone knows he was struggling. And if police hadn't looked into this, if they hadn't investigated, this probably would have gone unknown. So Michelle's behavior gets even more disturbing from what police learn after he dies in the car. Their call together ended at 7.58 pm. But if instead of hanging up dialing 911, she texted a friend at 802 pm. She hangs up with him at 758. At 802 pm, she texts one of her friends and says Conrad died by suicide. And after that, she doesn't call Conrad's mom or sisters. She plays dumb. She texts Conrad's sister saying, Hey, have you heard from him? I haven't heard from him. She calls Conrad's phone dozens of times. Like, oh, I'm trying to figure out where he is. He's not responding to me. This is to me, an obvious admission of guilt, because she's immediately trying to cover up what had happened. Oh, she knows. She 100%. Again, the following day, she's texting his family being like, have you heard from him? Have you found him? She also sends Conrad a bunch of desperate sounding texts the next day to make it seem like she's clueless. Like, either she'd had him delete their history of text, not thinking police could pull it up. And so the only ones on his phone would be these ones. That's exactly what happened. She probably didn't realize that they could get the deleted. They can look at history. She probably had no idea. So she texts him the next day, like saying things like, quote, did you do something? Conrad, I love you so much. Please tell me this is a joke. Meanwhile, she knows exactly where Conrad is. And she knows this is not a joke. She's the one that told him to get back into the car. Then, in February of 2015, after police have learned all of this, the courts made a pretty unprecedented move that turned this case into a true crime case. They indicted and had Michelle arrested on charges of involuntary manslaughter. Now, which is interesting because I feel like, and I know we're going to get to it, it's almost more under a first degree murder because she helped him plan it. I think you know what I'm saying? Yes. Right between, yeah. It seems more responsible, but I think what they're thinking is it's very similar to driving under the influence and taking someone's life. You made a reckless wrong choice, but you didn't have like you didn't pull the trigger. It's just hard because she was like, yeah, if you do cover like she was planning a murder. I mean, she was planning someone's death. Thinking like a hitman case. Yeah. Even the person who hired them serves hefty, yes, hefty charges. Right. Yeah. They usually don't get involuntary manslaughter. Right. Yeah. So again, though, this is the first of its kind. Like, when this hit the news, people were like, can you even do that? Yeah, is that possible? Like, is this even a thing? Like, is someone else responsible for someone else's suicide? Like, is that, can you charge that? This is a case unlike any other. There's no fingerprints. There's no DNA. The accused person was not even at the crime. The only evidence and murder weapon was the words that she had used against Honrad Roy. Like, that was it. It was her words, which means the path to prosecuting Michelle Carter was going to be an uncharted one and was going to draw a lot of public opinion. Primarily, because the state of Massachusetts where this crime took place had no laws against encouraged or assisted suicide. Like, they weren't written. There was nothing in the rulebook. Okay. I was going to ask about assisted suicide. So, okay, that's good to know. Interesting. But even though there's no paper work for this, the Supreme Court of Massachusetts obviously learns about the case and feels like they have a case worth pursuing. So in the summer of 2016, they stood by the charges and said that Michelle had a quote, virtual presence that night in the pickup truck, which is how they can charge her. Meaning her case for involuntary manslaughter was going to move forward. And Michelle's attorneys were worried about how they would come off to a jury full of people. So instead, they opted for a bench trial, which means only a judge would be hearing the case and then deciding her fate. Which is interesting because I do agree with her attorneys. I think if I don't know, I mean, what the, what she got yet, but if that day go to a trial, I am pretty certain that every single juror would be like, no, like you're a horrible person. Yeah. And I think it's like easier to think level headed as we're just like sitting here dissecting this case. But I mean, I've heard of plenty of stories where people have been bullied or you know, there's been horrible behavior against them and then they take their life. And I'm angry for them. Yeah. I'm angry. Like there's a part of me that wants justice. Like you, you had a hand in this almost even though they didn't. If that makes sense. And so I think like Garrett's saying, if you left it up to a jury, there is a high probability that they would also feel this way in this case. So Michelle's trial began on June 5th, 2017. And the prosecution painted the then 20 year old Michelle as someone who was desperate for sympathy and attention. And this becomes a big like a main focus points at the trial is that Michelle did this for attention. Like it was almost like Munchausans. She was like, if he dies, I benefit. People are going to feel bad for me. I'm going to, like people are going to, like I'm going to be able to be the star of this in a way. They claim she was motivated to push her boyfriend to suicide because she wanted to look like the grieving girlfriend who tries she might just couldn't stop her boyfriend from dying by suicide and everyone should feel bad for her. So again, the theory from the prosecution was like a case of Munchausans by proxy that in order for Michelle to gain sympathy and attention, she created a situation worthy of sympathy and attention. And they pointed to one big detail as evidence. And again, Michelle's life is like completely put on display at this trial every text she's ever sent any journal she's ever like anything because they have to really get inside her head. Michelle had kind of done a sort of quote dry run a few days before Conrad died. So what I mean by this is two days before Conrad actually died by suicide on July 10th. Michelle sent texts to two of her hometown friends saying Conrad was missing. Nothing had happened yet. Oh my gosh. But she is already wanting this attention. And this is what the prosecution is saying. Like if this wasn't the motive, what, like what is this? So she sends these these friends a text saying Conrad's missing and she's like, wait, she makes it this huge deal. We haven't heard from him. His family's looking for him. Even though she, while doing this to her friends is also actively communicating and texting with Conrad. So she knows he's not missing. She's she's just blatantly lying like crazy behavior. This is what I'm trying to say though. This was planned and thought through so thoroughly that I mean, I'm sure she's still going to get a lot of time in prison. But like it's kind of crazy to me that it's not first degree murder. You know what I'm saying. So when Conrad was still alive two days later, having a good day with his family, as his mom spoke to on the stand, Michelle, against a panic because the prosecution believes that she had thought at this point that he would have already done it because they were talking about it. And she thought that he would have already gone through with his plan. So now that two days have gone by and he still hasn't, she's starting to be like, I already told my friends he did this. So now I'm going to be like, they're going to think I'm a liar. So she doesn't want to come off as a liar. She wants to make sure Conrad follows through with his plan. So the, my friends don't know she's lying. Okay. So after that, she began putting together this virtual alibi by texting Conrad as well as his family to ask if they'd seen or heard from him. At least this is the story the prosecution tells the judge, but the defense approach is all of this very differently for starters. They say that the prosecution cherry picked the texts that they wanted to present in court and that they felt to include the ones that showed Michelle being a supportive friend that she was encouraging him to get help. They said that eventually though Michelle began to get worn down by Conrad that there is a perfectly psychological explanation to her behavior that she felt after years of hearing him talk like this. There was nothing more she could do to help him or stop him from following through with it. They said Michelle felt like she was on a never ending hamster will. And that if she stopped him one day, he would just try to get in the next, which was why it just eventually didn't matter to Michelle. They claimed her words were not what pushed Conrad over the edge because he'd been wanting to do this for years and it was his own decision. The defense also said there was nothing to substantiate what Michelle said on the phone to Conrad that night. They're like, yeah. So she told her friends he got out of the car and she told him to get back in. But there's no proof of that. And even if she told her friends and text messages this, she could have encouraged Conrad to get out of the car. Huh. That's funny. I mean, I get where the defense is coming from, but it's just kind of a bunch of BS. I mean, I don't think it matters if you cherry pick the text like you said what you said. Like how much. Yeah. Like, come on. Who cares? And also, sorry. There's a perfect psychological reason why, I don't know, in all the cases we cover, someone kills one because they are having an affair. Like there's reasons for everything, wait, it doesn't mean you kill people. It's not an excuse. Exactly. Yeah. There's honestly reasons for most murders 100% whether that's a motive or just someone psychologically being on well, you're still a murderer and you're going to go to prison. Yeah. You have to, you know, yeah. This is what the defense also brings up. And as you guys know, I don't normally go into a trial, but this is all this case has because there was like no who done it. I mean, this trial was unprecedented. They also argued that Conrad had spent a lot of time on his own away from Michelle researching suicide methods. And I think this is what's most devastating for me about this case is that not only did Conrad's entire family have to learn that someone was heavily encouraging him to take his own life and getting angry at him that he hadn't done it yet. They also then have to sit through a trial where his own demons are being used against him. Like the fact that he was struggling in, you know, with his mental health outside of Michelle is now exploited. Like, well, you can't hold a responsible because he struggled with his mental health. It's like, well, who doesn't like this happens all of the time. It doesn't mean that you can talk to someone like that. They also are like, listen, he hadn't even seen her in person for almost a year at this point. Conrad had free will and that when he stepped out of the truck, he could have hung up with Michelle. He could have dial 911. He could have just drove home. The defense says he made the decision to get back in the truck. And this was a decision that was ultimately his and his alone. And the thing that's hard to wrap my head around is that any point Michelle could have walked away. She could have stopped speaking to Conrad if she was really exhausted from supporting him. Or she could have told his family like, hey, this has been going on for a long time. I don't have any more support to give him, but I didn't want to like leave him hanging. But instead she plays into it. She feeds into it. She becomes his number one suicide advocate. And that's what's so disturbing about this case. Of course, when you have behavior like that, it is worth calling in a psychiatrist, which is what the defense did, hoping to justify some of her actions. What the psychiatrist says is Michelle had been on an anti-depressing called selexa. And that it had made her quote psychotic delusional and involuntarily intoxicated. And then another doctor named Dr. Harold, Dr. Harold, this happens so much in cases. I know. Copluwitz says, no, that's absurd. This drug is a category of drugs called SSRIs. They're safe. They don't cause any of the symptoms that Michelle's psychiatrist was claiming they did in court. Again, Garrett has a really big heat, he has an issue with this where he doesn't like experts testifying. No, because they all just the defense expert thinks for the defense team, the other side thinks for the other side. And he just like their two experts are just colliding. And I think that's just so ironic. And then it's up to the jury to trust what exactly which we believe, which doctor do we believe? Like, come on, guys. Yeah. This part of the defense didn't really compute, especially because as the prosecution argued, she was thinking clearly enough to then lie manipulate and try to cover her tracks when she knew Conrad had actually done it and was dead in the car for the next 20 hours. She begins trying to build an alibi. So she knows what she did was wrong. Here's what the defense does have a link to stand on though. And this is obviously what makes this trial so complicated. We have the right to freedom of speech. We have the first amendment. They say that while Michelle's words may have been vile, they may have been hurtful. The defense argues at court that her words are protected under the constitution of the United States. Hmm. Interesting. Okay. So on June 16, 11 days after her trial began, the judge had a verdict ready for Michelle. They decided that she was guilty of involuntary manslaughter primarily due to her failure to act. So basically, they said, it's not really what Michelle said. It wasn't really the text encouraging him to do it. That's what she did. It's what she didn't say that is getting her in trouble that she had a duty to alleviate risk like she should have told someone she should have texted his family. And then even when he was in the car, she couldn't call 911. The judge says this is what caused the death of Conrad Roy was you not stepping into help. Michelle was sentenced to two and a half years at the women's center at the Bristol County House of Corrections. Wait, what's up? Though her sentence was later reduced to 15 months. What is she's out of she's out. She's free. Yeah. But a lot of people in the criminal justice world found this verdict to be harsh. So as and this is what is so this is what is so controversial about this case is Garrett is sitting here going, no, she should be put away for like you can't speak to someone that way. Like you, you just can't like you had a hand in this. Whereas other people that work in the justice system are like, whoa, whoa, whoa, freedom of speech, first amendment, like you have essentially paved the way for future cases saying words are a weapon, a huge, a huge out of a gift for freedom of speech. I totally understand that. But we didn't have to which back then we didn't have Instagram back then, right? So things are just a little more personal and also your words can just carry different. Okay. Actually, it's not even that because it's what the judge said. Yeah. I think I agree with that because right, being on, I mean, do I think it's right. I mean, everyone can have their own opinion, right with when you're playing video games or you're on social media, people are telling other people to kill themselves, people are saying horrible things about other people. Do I think those people should go to prison? No. Do I think those people are losers and horrible people? Yeah. But should they go to prison? Should there be like any repercussions from it? No. So I agree with that. I agree with the amendment. I agree with what the judge said. But I just, I just, I guess I think it's different. I think if you're on the phone with someone as they're actually. Yes. Correct. And I guess it's because maybe they couldn't prove it, but I even think that if her message that, like, why aren't you doing this yet? You said you did it yesterday. Yeah. I just think that's when lines are crossed and maybe there's a line there. And maybe that's still just protected under the first amendment. And so I guess I understand that part. But I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. That's hard. That's extremely difficult. Yeah. So other lawyers are like, whoa, don't do this. Exactly why, though, they didn't want it to go to trial because I promise you every single person would have been more like me. And they would have said, it would have been great. Sorry. Have fun in prison. Yeah. speak like that to people and we'll see you in 20 years. - It's hard not to be angry. - Oh, this case pissed me off. That's crazy. - So there are people that are like you paved the way for us to essentially now use words as a weapon. Mary Ann Franks, a professor at the University of Miami School of Law agrees with this. She believed that Michelle should have been charged with domestic abuse or harassment and not manslaughter. - And I see, I really do see both sides, I think, like trying to understand the law and where things are coming from. I see both sides, but I still, it's not fair to Conrad's family. It's not fair to Conrad. It's not okay. Not okay. - Do you get out of the car? - Don't know. - Did he say I don't wanna do this? - I think so. Why would she lie about that? - And then did she pick up the gun and hand it back to him? - I don't know. - You know what I'm saying? - Yeah. - And I also don't want people who are like, no, no, no, but the justice system. I don't want you to attack, get it or the people's beliefs in this that are like this is horrible, this is awful because that is empathy. That is human emotion. When you hear about someone who treats someone this way and then the repercussions are as heavy as a life, it's frustrating. It's like be a decent human being. Like do we not have a responsibility to care about other people, to be good to other people? - Art, it's a very difficult case. - Yeah. So obviously Michelle's attorneys agree with this. In February 2019, they tried to appeal her sentence. They told the Massachusetts Supreme Court that by rejecting it quote, Massachusetts would be the only state to uphold an involuntary manslaughter conviction where an absent defendant with words alone encouraged another person to commit suicide. Now, it didn't seem like the Supreme Court really cared. They denied Michelle's appeal. They were like, no, we think she had a hand in it. She's gonna serve her sentence. She though did not serve all those 15 months behind bars on January 23rd, 2020. She was released early for good behavior. - Oh, give me, okay. - Since then, Michelle has kept a low profile after returning back to plaintiff. - Yeah, I would keep a low profile too, Michelle. - She has no social media presence. - Oh, how ironic, right? Like how ironic you bully someone and to-- - She doesn't want people telling her to kill herself. - Yeah, you don't want people telling exactly how ironic is that? You know I'm pissed. This is ridiculous. - This case is hard for me. - Why? Because I think Michelle was struggling psychologically. She had-- - Empathy level for me right here. - I'm not saying-- - Negative zero. - I'm not saying this is an excuse. I'm saying I can see the pipeline of where she got to that point. Like it almost-- - Yeah, but I can see-- - I can see the pipeline of any of our cases. - True. - But do I think they're murder, do they still deserve time in prison? Yes, sorry. Like if she has, you know, these issues with being loved or chosen or attention or spotlight and then after years of talking to him realizes she could achieve it, I don't know though, like, okay. Anyways, I don't want to keep talking about it because I'm confused. - Yeah, it's confusing. I feel you. - Now 29 years old, Michelle is no longer on probation, which means the conditions that she couldn't profit off of her story have now been lifted. And while she hasn't spoken out publicly as of this recording, there have been documentaries and a Hulu series about her case, which she did not participate in. But I personally think it will only be a matter of time before we hear her side of the story because wasn't her entire motive behind this attention. - Yeah, well, I mean, that's what they say. - Unless that is like somehow something she's worked through and healed, at some point is she gonna come forward and be the victim? I don't know. I don't know. I'm just saying, I'm just saying. Now, in the meantime, Conrad's mother has begun working with Massachusetts lawmakers to make suicide coercion in illegal crime. So she's like, no, we're gonna name this. We're gonna make it a law. - I like that. - Like suicide coercion is illegal. If you do this, it's illegal even though it's just words. - Okay, I agree with that, yeah. - And it would be a crime that would be punishable up to five years in prison. - Okay, I like that. I think that's a great idea. They're calling it Conrad's law and Massachusetts won't be the first state to implement something like this. In fact, at this point in time, it would now be the 43rd state to have some sort of protection of suicide bullying coercion in place. Which, personally, for me, I agree with Garrett. This is what we need. Suicide is an epidemic that needs as many sources as it can get, especially because the suicidal age is dropping lower and lower. According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, every year around 5,000 people between the ages of 14 and 24 die by suicide. And around 600,000 people end up in the emergency room each year from attempts. - Obviously that is an extremely scary number. But if you are listening to this, I just want you to know that you matter and you deserve to stay here and Conrad deserves to stay here. And if you are struggling at all, you guys, please contact the 988 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline by dialing 988 or text strength to the crisis text line at 741-741 or go to 988-Lifeline.com org, I know that it can be exhausting and tiring, but you deserve the help and there are resources out there to help you, please, please do it and choose to stay 'cause you matter so, so much. And that was the unprecedented, somewhat controversial true crime case about Conrad, Roy. Thank you guys so much for listening to this episode. Please let us know your thoughts because, like I said, this was definitely an eye opener for many people around this time and if you haven't heard of it or you haven't sure it was for you as well. Let us know your thoughts and we will see you next time for another episode. I love it. - And I hate it. - Goodbye.