The Case of the Missing Paychecks

The following program contains names, places and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following program is provided for entertainment purposes only and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances. If you or a left one are involved in an abusive relationship, please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233-4-Support. Happy Dating Detectives Monday! Hi Hannah! Hi Mackenzie! We have quite a story today. One of my favorite things about the story is how strong her friendships are throughout and made her like at every turn as hard as it gets. She was like, "I can get through it." Shout out to whichever friend recommended us to her and helped her submit. This is still super fresh, you guys, so this is kind of a, we hear a lot of stories. Yeah, like this month is when it blew up. Yeah, and so we hear a lot of stories of people going through this and then how they've dealt with it and how they've healed and this is still ongoing as far as her deciding how she's going to move on and stuff like that, so any support is obviously great. Yeah. Absolutely. Really fresh. Yeah, so her name is Emmy and she is great. You will love her and be inspired by her and also I'm sure join the Army of People Supporting Her as she processes everything going on right now. Yeah, I was wondering, like as she was telling her story, I'm like, "Well, this is interesting and I knew that obviously she's on our show, so something's going crazy." Something happened. I was like, "She sounded like a delight." Like, I got to tell you, I was a little bit shocked at what he did. I don't know. If Mackenzie shocked, then you know it was out of left film. I didn't expect it, so I really think you guys are going to appreciate this because it just goes to show you that you never freaking know. I would love, we have a comment section. If you listen on Spotify, we also have Patreon. I would love you to, if you write something about the ending, put spoiler first, but tell us what you think he was doing because I had suspicions and they were partially correct, but man, I didn't think everything that happens happened. So, if there's any point where you have a, I like to say a WTF moment or a suspicion, we'd love to get your comments and you can always discuss all the episodes further on our Patreon. It's $5 a month, you get two bonus episodes and you get a whole community of sleuthies who want to gab with you and we post updates sometimes and just like do livestreams sometimes, so it's just a cool, cool community. We really appreciate and love you guys. Thank you for being so supportive of everyone and thank you for being here. Shall we get into it? Let's do it. Hello, Emmy, thanks for being here. Thanks for having me. I'm so excited. Thank you so much. If that's okay, we'd like to give you the floor so you can go ahead and take us away. Okay. So, I'm a mom and a hairdresser by trade. I've been married once before and we weren't married for very long. We were together longer and we had a son and then had a daughter, but before we had the daughter, we got married so we were married in like a November and by March, we were separated. He struggled with addiction and he was just the big time narcissist which I didn't notice but my friends did during that time and when I separated from him, I started learning about what a narcissist is and so I was really hypersensitive to that, you know, like the verbiage and how when you talk to somebody else who dealt with a narcissist, you're like, did they go to the same university or something? Oh yeah. Yeah. Have they learned the same stuff? I don't know. I have no idea. It's wild to think about how a narcissist, they don't know each other but they behave and talk the same way in the same verbiage. So when I separated from him, I was in Colorado and started working in a local salon and just trying to put my life back together with my two little kids and it took about two calendar years to just divorce the man. So it took a lot of my energy, all of my free time, it was exhausting on all levels. He never even showed up to the court hearings. So the judge said, well, he's had plenty of time to dispute anything further so he signed my divorce degree and I left a divorce woman and I had tears but they weren't of sadness. It was like, it was just like a closure thing, it's done and I was relieved, I was so excited and charged. Finally, this chapter is closed but in the town I lived in, super small town, got to know a lot of people and so I had all these friends and they were encouraging me and now the truth was, you need to start dating again. So they kind of nudged me and I was very clear, I was like, I'm not looking for hookups. This was 2019, 2018 and how do you meet people? It's all online. You don't meet people organically anymore and like, I don't go to the bars. I don't go to the clubs. I don't do that. Plus, I was like in my 30s so it's like raising two babies. Yeah, exactly. So I was on the Tinder and I was like, you know, because those people are very specific. They want just hookups, you know? And so a friend of mine had told me, hey, I use this app Bumble and it's very specific. It's very intentional and it kind of filters out some of those people. So I created a profile in the Bumble, but I was very intentional. I was very upfront about what my wants and desires were for the future because on Bumble you can put, have children want more children or have children don't want more children and I had specified I have children and I don't want more children because, you know, I was in my late 30s and a starting over would be like a nightmare, you know, because my kids were also like both approaching to be both in school. So then I meet Noah and we were messaging on the Bumble app and before we even exchanged numbers, we were talking about goals and I told him I loved adventures and we're in Colorado. There's like, you throw a rock in any direction. There's a mountain. There's a hiking trail. There's a biking trail. There's all sorts of outdoor things you can do. And so he was like, I love nature. I love this. I love working out. I worked out all the time and we should run together. I would love to run next to a beautiful lady. That's exciting. Yeah. And I'm like, oh my gosh. And he was, he matched the energy, right? We were connecting on these dots that I was like, okay, this is a check. This is a check. And so we had scheduled our first date and it took us a little time with our schedules because he worked some odd hours. And so we finally got to go on our first date. We went on a hike and it was so much fun. And we both kind of joe populated area because I worry about first date hikes. It wasn't a highly populated area. However, it wasn't so remote and funny that you say that is that because I joked. I was like, can I put my purse in your trunk? And he was like, sure. And I said, is it right next to the duct tape and rope and stuff? And I was like, if you kill me out here, just make my body easy to find. And he had kind of laughed nervously. And later he had told me, I was afraid you were going to murder me in the woods. Like, you know, so we had a little funny moment because also before we met in person, we were talking about our past. He was talking about his abusive marriage and I was talking about my abusive marriage and how we had learned a lot about narcissism and that he had said his ex-wife was physically abusive to him, but also was verbally abusive. And so here we are, these two little traumatized people trying to just put our lives back together, right? Right. And so did he have kids? Yes. He has four children and they were older than mine. When we met, they were all under 18, but they were close approaching to that. And so we had talked about our kids. We had a great time. We had really good banter. We got along. I was totally comfortable. And so about a couple weeks into a dating and doing certain things, fun adventure things. And after two weeks, he wanted to introduce me to his mom. And I was like, okay. And so we go over to his mom and his step-dads house and I met his mom. Beverly. Loved her off the bat. She loved me. And during the time that I met his mom and started to get into know her, the ex-wife crazy thing was legit. The mom backed it up. Yes. It's kind of comforting, I imagine, for you to hear your mom like, right? Right. Right. Because she was like, oh, man, she is, you know, she's wild. She's something. Yeah. She is something. And that's the thing. It's like, it's not that your ex can't be crazy. There's just a way to talk about it in a relationship versus being. And he wasn't like how some people describe like, oh, man, she crazy as hell. And, you know, whatever, he just was saying, you know, she was really abusive to me. She would hit me and I would just let her hit me and I never put my hands on her and it was better. It was me instead of my kids. And so we were kind of learning things together at this time, right? We're dating seriously and we had both come to realization that maybe we were trauma bonding, but I was okay with that because I said who else would better understand each other? Correct. Yeah. So like we were learning things. We were learning more things about narcissism. We were learning more about how to grow. I was being vulnerable with him. I was sharing these things and he was sharing things with me and he was being super vulnerable and super transparent about rebuilding his life and having to start over. And he sounds like he's everything you wish to your ex-husband had been more dependable in terms of child support. Absolutely. And wanting to be involved with his kids, like on the level that I wished that my kids' dad would have been involved with their lives. And I did know I moved in fairly quickly and I didn't have reservations because we had this connection and we had this bond and we were growing this relationship and I would talk to some of my friends and they're like, "Well, when you know you know," you know, kind of thing. Yeah. If it seems right, it's not. Yeah. They thought he was super fun. He was super engaged with them and I just felt happy. I felt like I felt satisfied with where I was at in life and so I had told you he was in law enforcement. And so he was working at some, I don't even know what to describe it as, but it was like for troubled youth. So it wasn't in law enforcement per se, but it was kind of related to that in a way. And it wasn't a good paying job and he had also told me that he had a bachelor's degree in software engineering and I was like, "Oh my gosh, why don't you work in the tech world? You can make so much more money doing that." He was like, "I did. I worked in that world for a couple years, but the people were too nerdy. They didn't get my jokes, they didn't get my humor and I just didn't feel satisfied with that." And I was like, "Okay, fair enough. And I didn't push." I was like, "Whatever makes you happy, that's what I want you to do." And so I had encouraged him to ask him, "What is it that you want to do?" And he said he wanted to try and be in law enforcement again. And so he had applied for some of the local law enforcement there in Colorado and it just didn't work out. But he ended up getting a job for a state juvenile detention center. And so he seemed really happy when he got that job, you know, I was thinking great. So I have a lot of friends. I'm very social. My friends love me, obviously, you know, obviously, but that's my friends. That's my friends against these dogfits. I got out your community. My one friend Hannah, she's the one that was really, I know, I know. She was the one that was encouraging me to do the dating thing again anyway. When I was living my single mom life, my kids and I would go over to her house all the time. And so she invited Noah and I to have dinner over at her house and we were probably like a month in. And we go over there and we're having dinner and she brings up, you guys are done having kids, right? And I was like, hell no, you know, fuck them kids, we're not getting in, you know, we're done. You know, he's he's got four and I've got two and minor about to be in school is plenty of kids, you know, and he was not saying a peep. He was being quiet. And I was kind of like, side eyeing him. You're both said like, because he was so right, well, he was very vocal prior to that instance. He was like, no more kids. That's it. And he had had a vasectomy. So there was no kids on the table. And I was fine with that. And so we get home. I asked him, I was like, hey, um, you were very, very quiet during that conversation about having another kid and what's that all about? And he said, well, maybe I'm changing my mind. And maybe I would like to have a child with someone who's not crazy, you know, and I was like, okay, um, because I'm not into it. Well, I feel like he's using like he's saying, I didn't want kids. But now I love you. Because mine was changing and that's what the discussion was and I was like, okay, mind you. I'm an open-minded person. So I said, we can try. And if it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen. And I said, well, you have a vasectomy and there would be a medical intervention that would require to try for a baby, because I started doing some research on it. And with a reversal, there's no guarantees. And how did it feel when you switched that decision in your mind, like when you would talk about having a baby, what was, what was the feeling in your stomach? Like, were you just so excited? I started to get really excited about it. I was reserved at first, but I backed what I said. I'm open-minded, you know, we can try this, but it was kind of like a pinned conversation, if you will, because we met in summer of 2020 by March of 2021, we were engaged. So the vasectomy reversal conversation had kind of been pinned. And then the month before we were getting married is when he had the reversal. So we were going to try after we had gotten married, right? So we get married in 2021. By early 2022, I did find out I was pregnant. And we were still very much happy. We had come home from my honeymoon. Things were great. He was great with my kids. He was involved. And along the way, too, he was like, I just want to make, I want to make good money, because he was used to making a ton of money in Montana. He had made like six figures he had told me. And I was like, you know, money is not important. Like, I don't, I don't find it important, but it's not like, it's not the most important thing that I revolve my world around. I had told him I want to be financially in a place where we can pay our bills and not have to juggle shit. But he was driven, right? I want to make more money to provide for our family and I want us to do well. And he said that he wanted me to be a stay at home mom. And I said, you know, I would love to not feel the pressure to have to work. That's where I was at. I said, I could probably scale back on my hours. I don't have to work full time. So he was looking out a state to find better paying jobs. So I was probably my seventh month of pregnancy. And we get notification that his oldest daughter had ran away. She had ran away, disappeared. She was 17 at the time. Yeah, that's great. And her name is Sophie. And so Sophie got in touch with Noah. And she said, I, I'm hiding from mom. She was trying to put me in the mental institution and I didn't want to go. But because she was a minor still, the only solution she could come up with was just I got a heart. I'm not running away. Yeah. So she was hiding. So then I'm like, okay, are you, you know, we run speaker phone and I was like, are you safe? And she said, yes. So Beverly butter won my ticket to Colorado. And we both said, come out here. Come live with us. You're going to be an adult soon. You can live with us. So she came to live with us. And it was great because throughout our relationship and now marriage at this point, I wasn't super close to this kids. And I was really. They're older. Yeah. They're older. I'm not trying to mom them. Like, you know, talk to your kids, call them, even if they don't answer. Don't be afraid. Make the effort. And so he was. He was doing that. He was rebuilding the relationship with his kids. And so when, when Sophie came to live with us, he was super excited and super happy. And mind you, we're so happy. We're happily married. We're having a baby like, nothing still, no red flags for me outside of these very big drama things with his ex. But that was like, that was all validated. And so if he was there when I had the baby and Sophie was a great help around the house, we were creating a bond and my kids loved her. They played around and even though there was a big age difference there, she was really kind and really loving to them, you know. And still life was so good. Like, we had all these things happening. He was working at his job. He seemed he had his complaints about that job. There was people he didn't like at the job, but you know, it was a job. So Noah has a bachelor's degree in my mind, he's worked in the tech world before. And as we were approaching the end of my pregnancy, he really was adamant knowing that I wouldn't be able to work for some time. And so he's like, I'm going to get a second job. So he gets this remote online job where he's writing code. So he's working two full time jobs, but we never saw paycheck from the one job. And I kept asking him, where is this check? And he goes, I don't know. I'm supposed to get a check. That I have a check. And he told me he started getting messages from his ex-wife that there's, you have all these medical bills that are coming to my address. And he's like, what medical bills? I don't have any medical bills come to find out. There was this huge bill of medical bills for all four of his kids of going to the hospitals. And she was putting him has the soul, um, financial, responsible person. Yes. Yes. He was putting it to her address. And so it had reached like $150,000 and I was just like, what's going on with these children? Well, she's the type of mom to take her children to the emergency room instead of to a doctor's office because that's why you don't have to pay a co-pay when you go to a hospital. Yep. They just, they just take your information. They don't ask you for any money. So then he had gotten to the bottom of it and he said that every single penny he was making with the second job was being garnished by Montana, that they were taking 100% of his money because now these medical bills had not just been passed due or in collections, they were in judgment zone. So the hospitals are trying to get their money. money back. Yeah. And so now they are making judgments and they're they're taking money. And so we were only getting one check, which was his job at the juvenile detention center. And I was like, there's no way they can take 100%. But then like in all the rational side of me, I'm like, maybe they can because when there's a judgment and it's a medical bill, maybe they can take, you know, I've heard people have these financial situations where they've taken an entire paychecks to pay for some debt. Like if you owe the government or you owe state agencies or whatever, like you they can yeah, they can come after you. And so it wasn't unreasonable. And I'm, you know, like, okay, I'm still being a supportive wife. And so I was like, okay, well, it's not ideal, but we can we can make it work, right? So positive energy. I'm like, okay, we can do this. It's going to be rough, but we can make it through it. And even more reinforcement of like he's this really hardworking dad and husband and like he's really doing his best. And he was working 40 hours at his regular job and 40 hours at this other job. And I was like, it's hard. Yeah. And at the time, my brother Ryan was in the Navy. And he got close to Noah because he was also close in proximity. So he would come and visit us frequently. And then he actually had to have a surgery. And when you're in the military, they put you on convalescent leave or whatever. So when he had that surgery, he came to our house and he was there. So during that time, he was getting close to Noah as well. And Noah was really still adamant. I want to make more money. So my brother was kind of given him some ideas and stuff. And he started looking into higher paying tech jobs. And he had said, I think, I think that's the route I need to go. I don't think law enforcement's for me because it just doesn't pay. It really doesn't pay enough. So he found a major aerospace company went through the whole thing. He had to fly out to Georgia to take a test because they want to test your skill on certain things that the job requires. And so he went out there. They paid for it under my impression. And he had passed all the tests. And they said, we'll pay for your move. We'll reimburse you. So whatever it costs you to move, we'll reimburse you for this move. And you have family in Georgia? I do have family in Georgia. Yeah. And so that was kind of an ideal thing because Ryan, my brother, was saying that he wanted to move back to Georgia once he had finished his time in the service. And so it was like this, this seems to be all falling into place here. And Noah had kind of got his spark back because he was kind of, you know, he was stressed through all this time. And so I was just again, supporting whatever you want to do. If it makes you happy, I'm not in it for the money. But if that's what will make you peace of mind as a husband and a father, I'm back in you 100%. So we had to borrow money from my brother to make the move because it's expensive. We, you know, when you hire a moving company, it's a big, it's a big ordeal. And the company, what was not paying for all of it? They were going to reimburse. So you have to pay for it. Which is how most companies work. So we borrowed money to relocate. And I had seen an employment letter. So I had proof of this job, totally legit. And so we were able to secure a rental place. And we move. And once we get to Georgia, not a single paycheck materialized from this aerospace company. So now we don't have the job that we were getting that income he had at the juvenile detention center. And I forgot to mention that after I had the baby, my friend brother was looking for someone to work from home remote. So I was then employed before we moved to Georgia. But it was remote. And because I had the baby, it was convenient for me to do. And where our financial status was, I was like, I got to work. I got a hustle, you know, to help support. And when you find that, when you moved, yes, because it was completely remote, I could do that job. So I was working. But what I was making was not, I had known, right? Because we were moving to Georgia. But I was also under the impression he's going to make six figures. I'm making mental right. And I was thinking like, my income can just be disposal will income. If we're making six figures, we can have all these adventures. Again, we're dreaming again. We want to do these adventures. We want to do these things. He is saying that it's those debts still. They are taking 100% of his check because of that debt in Montana. And he was completely devastated, overwhelmed by the situation. But they can't garnish reimbursement wages. Yeah, I mean, this is when Spidey senses started going off. And now we have three kids and life is expensive. But I was a mom. I was working. I had a baby, you know, like, nursing. Oh, yeah. You're just trusting him to take care of that side of absolutely 100%. But eventually he tells me I lost this job with the Sarah space company because they have very high standard of efficiency. And so if you don't produce at what they want you to produce that, you lose your job. And it's just most places, if you don't like because they were paying you anyways, or he kind of was like, well, it was no skin off my nose, right? Like you said, hadn't received a paycheck. So when you share that information, was he like upset? Yeah. Or embarrassed. All of it. He was embarrassed. He was upset. He was panicking because here he is, like, I've always been a good provider is what he kept saying consistently through this whole time. Like, I've always been a provider. And now I can't even be like, he felt he was expressing to me that he had been robbed of that feeling because the ex-wife was just wreaking havoc on our lives in a financial way, in a very large way. And so I said, okay, well, let's get you another job. What do you want to do? So then he started revisiting, you know, if he says go back. He was still looking. I told him, no, absolutely not. I'm not. We're in Georgia. We're going to just do what we got. You know, so then he looked into another tech company. They were out of Phoenix. Again, they require testing. So he had to fly out, I believe my brother Ryan had helped him with plain ticket to get out there so that he could do these interviews. Because again, my brother's involved in this cheerleader team here. So then Ryan helped him get out there, Noah stayed with Ryan and then Ryan drove him around and took him to the place. It was like I had a hotel where they facilitate meetings and stuff like that to take these tests. So he takes the test. He stays with my brother. He comes home and he says, well, they didn't hire me. Just like, want, want, you know, and throughout this, we had started doing the Uber and door dashing thing because it's kind of like fast cash and they can't garnish it because it's not an actual paycheck, you know, so like we were, I mean, like when I tell you we were outside of the box, we were outside of the box. I'm straight hustling, right? And then Noah had to go back to Colorado. He had this friend. His name is Luke and I had known about Luke when we were out there in Colorado, but I never actually met him in person. And what I had known about Luke from the get go was that he had cancer and he had survived a different type of cancer, but then he had new cancer and it would come on worse, you know, whatever. And he was still working and he was working at the juvenile detention center as well. And so he was just this warrior person, right? Like, but I had never met him. But I never pushed it because you know, that was one thing that Noah had. He had kept his co-workers separate from me and like his professional life because in his previous marriage, it had made him distrustful because he had told me that after he was divorced, he had found out that his wife had actually messed around with a couple of his co-workers. And so for him, that was like a hard line. And I didn't, I respected that boundary. I had no interest, you know, you're like, I don't care fine. Whatever. I don't care. Right. It's fine. It makes you comfortable. It's not that important. Exactly. And so he was making all these trips back there. Mind you, we have a joint account at this point. So he's not using our money to buy these tickets. He's claiming that Luke is buying these tickets to send him out there because apparently Luke is super loaded. He had come into some inheritance money years ago and he had been really financially responsible. And so like, you know, he was like, he just, his daughter wasn't there. That was why Noah had to go because, you know, he needed someone to help take care of him while she was gone. And so I was like, okay, you know, things are, they're starting to get a little bit more suspicious for me as far as like these jobs aren't panning out. Why? And he's going to visit his friend to make money or just- No, just to be a friend. Because he has cancer. And it wasn't never about monetary gain, but he kept, he would say certain things that was implying that maybe he would have added him into his like will or something. And I'm like, well, you can't expect that because like- And don't just go family. Hoping to get in the will. I'm just not just thinking like our family, like I'm sorry this guy has cancer, but like, hey, we got to take care of our family. Right, right, right. But because he was in between jobs, it was like, well, he needs my help and I need to help my friend. I love a capsule wardrobe. I'm not always good at it, but quince has made it very easy to only have pieces that I always reach for over and over again. Like the sweater that somehow works with everything or the jeans that always fit just right or the bag that I carry literally everywhere. There are permanent spots in your wardrobe and that's exactly what quince does so well. Quince makes elevated everyday essentials using premium materials like Mongolian cashmere organic cotton and washable silk. 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And because I was remote job and know what didn't have a solid job. - This is our solution. - Yes. So we move our belongings into storage, we relocate to our house. - And how far was she? - Not far, a couple hours. And so I'm like, this is gonna be great. Everything's starting to look up. You know, okay, he still doesn't have any money, but the financial pressure has kinda come down. We don't have rent and we can focus on paying off debt and paying off the vehicle. All these things that I have like these goals that I've been very communicative with Nella about. I just, I wanna be financially free. I don't wanna be bogged down with debt and all this stuff. So initially when he came here, he was looking to get on the local Pete, like Sheriff's Department. So he was revisiting that again, as well as tech jobs and stuff. 'Cause I was just like, I don't care, again, maintaining. I don't care what you do. Just find a job. Something. I don't care if it's $10 an hour. Find a job, take a job. I need financial contribution at this point. Because it had been a year and a half since we had left Colorado. That any of his money that he was making was contributing to our household. And so he had applied. He went through the process for this one particular department. And then he said they didn't hire him. Because something he had said to them was not consistent or something. And so they ended up not hiring him for it. I was like, okay, that's weird, but whatever. So then he goes to another one in the local area, another Sheriff's Department. They're like two different counties. And so he does that. And he says he gets hired, okay? He starts the training or the Academy training, yes. And I talked to my brother on a very regular basis. We are thickest thieves at this stage of our lives. And so he's also cheerleader number. I'm cheerleader number one. And he's cheerleader number two. And he's like, hey, Noah, I wanna pin you when you finish your Academy. And Noah was expressing, I want you to pin me. This would be such an honor. But every time we would ask for a date, 'cause my brother's like, I need to take time off work so that I can travel. 'Cause he's not living in Georgia. So, you know, he's out of state. - I don't wanna, I don't want to hear. - And so, and so then he's like, I'll get you the information. I'll get it, I'll get it. I will let you know, I'll let you know. Never produced it, you know? - And he's waking up every day, putting on his clothes for work and going to this training. - Well, he wasn't wearing his uniform. Oh, Hindsight's 2020. - We both know where this is coming and I don't like it. - I know. If I was listening to this story, I'd be like, bitch, please, you know, right? But because he said he had a locker at work and he would, he didn't wanna bring his uniform home. - Sure. - So, he would wear his street clothes, he would take his work boots with him and he would get dressed in his uniform there and he would do the Academy and then he'd come home. So, he was leaving every day. - And you're a mom of a new kid and everybody like, yeah, I think this audience we don't have to worry about. - People know how much is going on in your life. You don't have time to track every single move. Especially if you don't have explicit reason to doubt. - Right, yeah, especially at that time. Yeah. So, then he expresses to me, he's about to turn 40. He's like, I don't know that I wanna be an officer. - Long forcements of young man's game, I don't wanna be out there chasing criminals. I'm getting too old for this. - But beggars can't be choosers at some point. - Exactly. - You do have to pay for things. And I was saying all those things too, you know, just, this is ludicrous, okay. - Let's do it and let's go. - Right, so then the narrative was, I'm experiencing this midlife crisis. - Yeah, no shit. - My spidey senses are starting to like ring a ding, ding, ding. - Right, yeah. - We've not had a consistent job. There's not been a paycheck, like things are starting to add up. - They could have paid for training in the Academy. - Yes, and we had never received a check for that, but remember the narrative is that like, you know, 100% of everything he makes that is attached to his social is going straight to Montana. That is like his thing. And so when I start really pressing him, this is when our interaction starts to change, right? Remember, I told you super laid back, validated all my feelings. Anytime there was like a, we never fought up until this point, there was no fighting. If we had a disagreement, we were going to talk it through, validate each other's feelings, really be proactive and be the healthier versions of ourselves. Because remember, we were learning all of these things and we were healing ourselves of our past traumas. And so there wasn't any drama, but when I started to press him about this employment thing, that's when he started changing how he interacted with me. - Because now he's getting offensive. - Absolutely. And one of my main stressors during this time, finances, right? So I'm having these discussions with him and pressing about the employment. And he's like, all you care about is the money. - What, no, yeah, just shocked my jaw just dropped. And I was like, I'm not asking for luxury. I'm not asking for a million. I don't want to be a millionaire. - I'm not paying the more bills. - Right. I want to relaxingly pay our bills without being stressed about it. - Also, how dare he with that accusation after years of you being not that way. - Correct. - And it was never. - And it was never he was just being defensive. And now it's a matter of why. - Right, right. So it's coming together, right? And I'm a patient person and I'm a patient. - Patient as a state at this point. - And I'm like, we're in debt. We borrowed money to move across the country. We were struggling to buy food and I skipped a lot of meals to make sure that my children would eat. And I was offended because I was like, you are reframing this that my basic financial survival that need to just, like, I was only asking, we're like barely surviving. We're barely shredding water. And it's like, as if I was being greedy. So I kept maintaining life costs money. - Yeah. - You have children. We need food, we need gas for the car. We need to pay insurance on the car. We need to pay the car payment. Like, we have life costs something. - And his defensiveness is his insight. - Right. By this year, like February March, I lost my remote job. So we're living in a rent-free home, but we're barely making ends meet as it is. 'Cause we had gotten behind on some things so we're trying to get caught up. And right as we're getting caught up, I lose my remote job. The company ended up not going under per se, but like, they just didn't have- - But before you anymore, probably. - Yeah, yeah. And so now I'm really panicked. My spidey senses are going off and I'm like, I am panicked. And again, I'm a hairdresser, but I don't have my hair license in Georgia. So when I lost my job, I. then I duck deep, what is Georgia require for me to get my license? 'Cause now I'm like, I gotta get a job. I can't count on this guy. He's fucking weird. Whatever he's up to. And I'm just like, my main priority was my kids. At this point, I'm like, I'm starting to check out. I'm starting to like, mm. You have to shift your focus, and it can't be him right now, 'cause he ain't doing it, so. Right. So we had all of his kids on our phone plan. And made it quite a large bill. And so at some point, you know, you don't pay for a couple of months. They cut you off. So we have no job. And we have no phones. And so if I'm not a Wi-Fi, I'm like, in 1992 on the streets, you know? I can't. Oh my god. Offal, right? 'Cause I'm like, like, there's no people calling me when I'm driving. 'Cause it's like, you legal. You're like, I'm so present. Right. You're so positive. When you're trying to find a job too, like when you're trying to fix your eyes and ears, yeah. Absolutely. And in this time frame, he started becoming really protective of his phone. It was something that was small, but I noticed it. Uh-huh. And if I even got close, like, so let's say he had his phone on the counter. And I was walking into the kitchen to make dinner. He would come, like, sprint over to that phone and grab it so quick. And this is when my intuition is just screaming. Something is wrong. And this was at the beginning of 2026. And he was still playing that I'm doing the Sheriff's Department thing. He was having to go to South Georgia for training, which I thought was weird. And he said, "Well now, I have to go to Boston for the next training." And I said, "Are you. what?" And so. Why is he going to a convention if he hasn't even passed training? That's, I was asking all those questions. I not only was I asking myself those questions, I was asking him. And he just was reassuring me, like, this is just something they do. It's a thing. I know. I'm still no pin-date. Like, he hasn't given you or your brother. Correct. Yeah. A final. And I knew he was going to Boston because he was showing me it in Marys. He was saying that the department was covering everything. And when he came home one of the times, the story changed a bit. He said that he was no longer working for the Sheriff's Office. He had, instead, while he was away in Boston, he had interviewed and accepted a remote job. And so I was like, "Uh, okay." But my suspicion is still growing. I'm still like, "There, why?" You know? But I was upset at that time because now I'm actually getting upset. I'm like, "Why would you make this decision without even talking to me about it?" When I've been, you know. So supportive. Talked to me, so supportive. And then his response was unlike the man I'd known and the man I'd married. And he said that he wanted to be able to make decisions as a man without being questioned by his wife. And I said, "No, he just only wants to do things that you support in a green way. He doesn't want to be held accountable." Right. And I said, "I'm not asking for control over you. We're married. Your employment directly affects our family, whether you have your income or not having it." Yeah, like I got a horse in this race, fella. Yeah, and as a married couple, like it's. You made a commitment. You made a commitment to have a discussion on major decisions. Anytime you ask for basic needs, he turns it on you. Right. And then he would backtrack. When I would challenge him on it, he'd backtrack and be like, "I'm sorry. He'd validate my feelings. You're right. I'm just super stressed." Because he's going through this midlife crisis. And I was really trying to engage in conversation, like, you know, get to the bottom of it. What is going on? Are you depressed? What is wrong? And he's like, I don't know. I feel like I'm going through a midlife crisis. And I don't know that I know who I am anymore. Maybe I made a mistake. And I was like, what do you mean? A mistake. You mean marrying me? Do you mean having a child? And he would be vague and respond, like, I don't know, maybe. I'm sorry, what? And I challenged along the way. Like, you're an adult. You chose to marry me. Not only did you propose, we got married. You wanted to have this baby. That was the decision we made together. No one forced you. And I started telling them, I have started over before. And I can do it again. Like, I am not, I am not, that's not what I want. You're not going to hold me back to this bullshit. Right. But I had also encouraged therapy. Maybe you need to go to therapy. Maybe we need to go to couples therapy. He seemed open to it. And then I started asking him, because I had this really strong feeling that he wasn't telling me something. And I would say, is there something you're not telling me? Like, I feel like you're not being honest with me about something. And he'd say like, what? And I said, well, if I knew, if I knew I was specific, I'd be really, really specific. Why don't you give me a little hint? Right, right. So that was between the midlife crisis and these conversations. Oh, God. Wait, multiple times. I had had that. And I was also reiterating that I'm not going to beg you to say, if this is not what you want, I'm not forcing you here. And I'm not begging you to say. But I am your wife, and I support you, and I, you know, like willing to help walk you through this path. You know, like that we can walk this path together. And you knew it wasn't always going to be like me, right? And I knew, yes, maintained all of that. So he had this most recent job. It's remote. It's in Boston. But he had to go for training. So he'd been a couple of times back and forth. And by this point, we don't have phone service. So I had to be on Wi-Fi. And he had to be on Wi-Fi for us to communicate. And it was on Snapchat, too, because our phones were turned off. And I have an iPhone, but he doesn't. And on iPhones, I can, I message, anyone on Wi-Fi, but I couldn't take him, right? Oh, my God. So June, he's gone for weeks at a time. And every time he'd be gone for a week, I'm like, it's been two weeks since you've been gone. And he'd say, oh, what? So communication is becoming worse. He's not as responsive. He's just attributing it to that he's working. He's trying to come home because I'd say, when are you coming home, when are you coming home? It's summer time. Making money, right? No money's coming from him. Nothing's coming to our account. By this time, by June, I was working in another salon. And I got my Georgia hair license. I start working in the salon. And so he'd be gone. He was still saying, I love yous. And these things, you know, like reassuring, I'm trying to come home and work in on it. They want me to stay another week. I have these projects. The La-La-La-La. And I was expressing how upset I was about, you know, this is a remote job. But-- Yeah, you're gone. Point, you're spending more time away for a remote job than you are at home. And that was really upsetting me. It's not like you're in the military. It's not like you're in-- You're not deployed. Right. You're supposed to be working from home. So the night-- This is not a remote job. Right. And I'm starting to feel ghosted by my husband. Because I'm not hearing from him. And I was also being really honest and saying, my mind's going to dark places. Because now I'm thinking, what are the scenarios? Like, there is something off. Like, is he cheating? What is he doing in Boston? What is happening here? And I kept communicating like, I need reassurance. And I need communication. And it was just becoming harder for me. Because now I'm starting to feel like a single mom again. Even though I'm married, even though he's-- You know, he's telling me he's trying to get home. It's all on me. And when he was here, he was not engaged. He was distracted. He's stressed and all that kind of stuff. And then one of the times he was home, I was like, I had a vivid dream that you cheated on me. 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And I want to be more attentive to him and show him that I'm here for him and doing things like putting down my phone, paying attention to him, being present with him and handling stress with him. That's something that I really want to be better at. And when I talk to my therapist. through BetterHelp, it is a feeling of relief and I feel supported. I feel like my BetterHelp therapist really gets me and I can focus on my emotional well-being, but also he gives me the tools and resources that can help me be a good mom. He helps me build my confidence in how I'm supporting my child and how I can be there for him and it's really amazing when you have that support. I love my current therapist I've been able to talk to several different therapists and then I found one that really really really super above and beyond aligns with me and I feel super super comfortable. So you can change your therapist at any time which is one thing that I really love as far as feeling the most comfortable with your BetterHelp therapist. You can sign up and get 10% off at BetterHelp.com/tDD, that's BetterHELP.com/tDD. And so now with Forsage of July, so the time period he's home, we go to a barbecue, he came with me and he ended up leaving early because he said that he was having a silly action and oh that's an allergy to gluten yeah. Yes okay yeah. From day one he told me I have celiac disease, it makes it hard for eating out and whatnot and whatever. So the following weekend you know I'm working on a salon, he messaged me, there's been a day to breach and I have to go to Boston and there was this sense of urgency and I was like again I'm still on the wipe like I'm hitting Wi-Fi hotspots right? You have to get paid and these folks are telling you to travel and you're just going? Right right right exactly and I'm like I'm you know I'm reaching my limit emotionally and I had asked some questions but because I didn't have service when I got back from my break at work I couldn't check any of my messages until I got home. Well I get home and he's gone and I asked the kids I said no I'll go and they said oh he said he needs to go to the work. I said did he pack a bag? No and I was like okay. The communication was kind of lessening and lessening you know like there wasn't a lot of like I couldn't reach him because he's working and he's working on projects. About two weeks after he'd been gone after that last when he left last I got service back on my phone because I took I'm taking back my finances. Yes of course. I need a phone and I've been telling him I'm like we need to pay this phone bell I need to have a functioning phone this is unacceptable and he's like I know I'll pay for it I'll pay for it and you know because he's doing all these odd jobs and stuff right along the way but nothing was ever produced of it and so at any rate I have service now but he doesn't. So I'm not hounding him by any means but he's not responding when I do get a response he's like you know they have me working on these projects so he's still maintaining that he's working. Yeah so here's when the bombshell goes down okay I want answers. I'm hoping there's some answers here. Oh my gosh so the only thing that I'm communicating with him is when are you coming home and he'd say soon soon soon and I'm like you keep saying that like give me I needed a date I'm you in tenorier I need something like now I'm like I need answers or I'm going on the dating check gives right right so I get I get home from work I see I've missed a couple messages from Sophie that's his daughter his oldest and she's been trying to reach her dad and she had tried to reach out to me like on um she has my phone number but she messaged me like on like social media. This fella better have been abducted and is a trafficking victim because literally freak are you right so my daughter comes in she's on the phone with Sophie because they talk a lot right remember they have a bond they're you know like step sisters but they I love it I love it for both of them so she's like I'm trying to get a hold of my dad have you talked to him I had a situation today and I really need to talk to him and I was like okay you know I said honestly I haven't really heard from him every time I try to call him he doesn't answer and I'm telling her he's not even home he's out of town working and during this conversation she casually mentions a half-brother and I said oh no what's half-brother and without even skipping a beat she goes well you know I'm trying to get a hold of Emma and I'm like who's Emma and she goes well that's his that's Theo's mom wait who's Theo the baby that's why I said the baby this half-brother she immediately stopped she knew that when she said that I didn't know and I was like how old is he and she goes oh I don't know like a year or so now it was like a year old and how long have you been together we've been married almost five years oh my god together for six and we're almost been married for five years and I am like uh what she's like I am so sorry he said you knew but not to bring it up to because it was upsetting for me to talk about and for upsetting for you and I was like um that is so awful did you do your daughter for her what a possession to put her in and so she said well this is why grandma doesn't want to talk to him so I told Sophia's like you know what she was then then she you know I could I could hear it in her voice she felt bad she felt embarrassed she felt like confused I'm sure and confused that she had just dropped this bomb on me and like she thought I knew and I said it's not your fault the truth always comes out and this is not you're doing this is yeah totally your dad I didn't have a clue is what I told her and so I I handed the phone back to my daughter which I had excused my daughter because I didn't want her to hear that part but I think she kind of heard half brother she heard enough and she's she's sharp okay that was a sharp point so she she I think she knew something was up at that point but she had left the conversation I finished my conversation with Sophie and then I gave the phone back and let them finish their conversation and I called up Beverly and she's like hey you know because we then we talked on the phone it was infrequent I you know busy she's always been respectful always love me we've always great great lady and I said I feel a little confused and I hope maybe you can clear some things up for me and I heard her gasp and I said so um Noah has a another child and she said oh my gosh I thought you knew oh my he called me last summer and said I I have this kid I said how old is he and she said I don't know he tells me a different age every time I ask but she's like a year 18 months it's never the same age and so she's filling me in and she's like he called and said I have this kid and I didn't think it was mine but he had to take a paternity test so his actual trip to see his dying friend was to establish paternity with his child and she's horrified she's like I thought you knew he had said that you're just a really private person they talking about it was upsetting but that we were working through it that was what he had maintained to her and she had said that when he was telling her about this child that he wanted her to video call the child to build a relationship with the kid and she had said absolutely not this is wrong you know what about Emmy she was so sick and was really angry about it and she gave him a piece of remind at that time and while I'm talking to her about it I said who else knows and she said the whole family everyone everyone of his siblings oh my god and yep and everyone thought that I knew and everyone believed that no one I were privately working through and this affair and this secret child so I got off the phone with her I felt like physically sick like not only like I felt like a punch in the gut after talking to Sophie and then I just felt ill and like I could just vomit everywhere so then I I start calling my close friends that I was not being vulnerable with and during the times that I probably should have in the last year and my friends are little investigators and my sister and also she started doing some searching too and she found the paperwork for this paternity because she you know when she had established paternity there was a court hearing so remember he had to go out to Colorado urgently might I add because his dying friend was out there dying and his daughter couldn't take care of him how sad so my first piece of paper trail that she was trying to get child support for this child so within the first 24 or 48 hours it's kind of it's a blur right like I'm just shell shocked this is beyond my imagination right like I knew there were shenanigans happening but this was not what I imagined at all like this guy's a space Skidette when he's at home. There's no way. There's no way he's had a double life. And I even had a a neighbor who was like, I bet, what if he has double life? Because she was noticing that he was gone a lot. And she's like, where is he? When is he coming back? And I'm like, I don't know, girl. I don't even know. I'm just, I'm just fighting for my life over here, you know? And so it's funny. Hindsight's 22. But the, the night that I found out, so I had spoken to Sophie and I had spoken to Beverly. And then I call him. And he wasn't answering at first. And I was messaging him. It was on Snapchat. And I said, you need to answer me. We need to talk right now. We need to talk. And so he answers. And it was a video. And I said, so what is this about Sophie telling me you have another child? And he's like, oh, it's just some bullshit. And I said, why? Why would she lie? She clearly thought that I knew this information. There's no reason she would be lying to me. And the whole family knows, like, right now, well, I didn't tell him this, right? And I had tried. She has said much. She defends lie. I said, Beverly, you didn't talk to me. And I didn't talk to you. And she said, understood, not a word. Because now, everything he's ever told me since I find this is a lie. And my immediately, as soon as I found out about this kid, I'm thinking, my everything's been a lie, everything, everything, everything. And so I pressed him. And it was a video call. So I could see his body language. He was clearly uncomfortable. But I was like, you need to tell me. And he goes, well, this is something I wanted to say in person. But then my response immediately was when you've been gone for two months, like you had plans to come back. Right. Do you plan on coming back and telling me this in person? No, you need to tell me right now. He's writing to the kid turned 18. Oh my God. So then he was like, okay, fine, I cheated on you. But it was only once. And I think, okay, I have a really hard time believing that it was one time. So then I start asking, I'm like, well, who is she? She was the nurse at the juvenile detention center. I knew it. And I said, how did it happen? And he goes, well, I was initially there for support for her. Because he was saying he was some sort of support individual at the job. So his explanation was, well, initially, I was just there for support for her. And she was married at the time. And he's still maintaining, we only had sex one time. And I said, well, where did you guys go? And he was like, it was in the car, fine. He was like, like, go ahead and guilt and shame me. I'm like, first of all, if you feel guilt and shame, that is you. And you should. So then I asked him, when was this child born? And he said January of 2023. And I'm 23. So he's three months younger than our child. Oh my God. And he said, yeah. And I'm calm during this call, right? Like, I'm not screaming. I'm not acting like a crazy person. I'm giving him the opportunity to just be honest with me at this point. The jig is up. I have found out. And you need to tell me, wait. So does that mean that he had gotten her pregnant around the time that you were getting planning to get married? And then you got married while she was pregnant. No, no, we got pregnant. I was pregnant. First, she got pregnant after me. Oh, but this is like after we got married. See, I'm confused. Imagine how you were. The point is that your marriage and first baby was happening around the same. This woman and I were pregnant at the same time. Oh, I had our baby. And three months later, she had their baby. But at this point, I'm so shell shocked by the information I've learned thus far and then barely get a confession out of the man. Didn't even apologize. Just so unremorseful. And he ends up ending the call. And I'm still trying to just press him for like, I deserve to know how long has this been going on? Yeah. Have you been visiting this? I asked that. I said, have you seen this child? No. Are you in a relationship with this woman? No. Uh, okay. And he goes, I've been fighting this for the last year and a half. And I said, okay, so you didn't think it was your child? He goes, no, I didn't think it was mine, but it is mine. So he was minimizing everything. I just didn't believe him, right? So then this and these mysterious trips to Colorado were making way more sense to me. I'm like, he wasn't visiting his dead dying coworker. He's fighting paternity or maybe he's in a full-blown relationship with this woman, right? Like, and one of my skills from previous marriage was reading between the lines, which is not like a healthy thing, but like I learned to read between the lines because that was the dynamic, right? And that's how narcissists behave that way because if they don't fully confess to the truth, they're not admitting fault, right? Yeah. Yeah. Right. That, you know, if you can fill in the blanks yourself, they don't have to confess to their sins or they don't have to be 100% honest. Right. So after that phone call where he minimized, you know, he tells me, but it was like that wasn't, like I deserve so much more of an explanation. And he was just kind of like, you need to, like he just had this, he, his, it turned, it was like night and day difference. Last week, he was like, oh, I love you. And then I find this information out. And now he's completely turned on me cold, calculated. So this is when I start telling myself he didn't just have sex with her one time. They, they had an affair. They were sneaking around. She was married. She is now divorced. But after talking to my friends and family out there in Colorado, who do a little investigating, they found her name. They found her address. They found her telephone number. And I called her. Well, they mess it. One of my, one of my dearest friends did mess it her. And she was very pragmatic about it. You know, she's just like, I am writing this. I have no judgment towards you. I have no ill will towards you. Whatever Noah is telling you is not the truth. It is lie. Whatever you have heard about this situation. And then she kind of spelled it out, right? Like, yeah, Emmy is by herself thinking he's out of town working. He has not asked about Lucy. That's our baby's name. And we are just trying to film blanks of information. If you want to reach out to me, you can't let's, this kind of like, there was a lot more. She was really kind and, you know, just, yeah, just non-judgmental, right, you know, woman to woman. And they had found an email address, but it didn't go through. And then she messaged one of the numbers that had come up when they were looking her up. And she had responded with do not contact me. And so, you know, like, all right, well. And then so then this is where I'm like, you know, because I'm trying to piece, you know, now I'm like, now I'm playing detectives. Now I'm like, where are you really? And I had pressed him for his location. And he's still is maintaining. He's in Boston. But then he started sending me emails, like, almost exactly around the time that these messages from my friends were going. Of course, that I'm like, no, he's right there. He's right there. He's reading what she's getting. And he is totally in control of whatever that narrative is. And I just want him to tell me the truth. Because I've already now decided nothing has been real since day one. And I'm trying to get him to tell me, and to just just tell me, you have nothing to lose. Like, if you've already decided, I'm divorcing you, you need to just tell me you have nothing else to lose. Because now I'm replaying everything, every job, every trip, every story, every explanation about his ex-wife, every financial crisis, every red flag that was rationalized. And he kept saying, I don't want to argue about this. It's in the past. Like, this might be the past for you, but this is fresh for me. And I deserve the answers. I deserve respect. I deserve an apology. Because at this point, he still hasn't apologized. There was nothing. No remorse, no nothing. And so the little gears are turning like, has he even had a job since we moved to Georgia? Has it has the right? This is my mind. Has there even been a job? You know, I don't know what was real and what wasn't. When was the last time that you have seen any money or like a paycheck from him? It was in 2024 before we left for Georgia. Oh my god. And that was the last time we filed our taxes. And every time I asked him for W2, I'll get it to you. I'll get it to you. And initially, when I, when I found this information out, I felt a lot of guilt and shame. How did I get here again? Like, how is this my life and my reality again with a man child, right? And I'm comparing notes with his mom. She's like, I don't think that he has silly X disease. He had never mentioned silly X disease until you guys were together. And I was just like, oh my god. You know, so like, now even more unraveling, like, right? Like, I'm like, everything was a lie. Everything from day one was a lie. Because he wanted something to use as an excuse medically to get out of them. I guess. I guess. What about when your brother took him to that test? He dropped him off at the, didn't he drive him to the hotel? Yeah. Oh my god. I have no idea. I mean, maybe he was meeting up. But I don't know. Like that, you know, everything, everything was questioning, you know, like not a clue, not a clue. And my friend Claire, when I tell her this bombshell, she's like, he mirrored you from the beginning. And I said, what? You know, he's empathetic. He's adventurous. He's oriented. he's a dreamer, he's family focused, he's hard working. All the qualities that mattered deeply to me that, you know, you were looking for. What part of Noah was actually Noah? And how much of it was fabricated or specifically for me was the biggest mind-fuck of the whole experience, right? Like an affair is devastating enough. The level of betrayal there. But this was like, is this person even who he says he is? Like, this is fabrication. What you're describing is a different type of dark personality than your first husband. And that we've talked about this with Dr. Romani, Dr. Vasula, I don't know if you've heard of her, but we talked to her on our Patreon. And she's a narcissist expert. And we asked her, why do a lot of people get into second relationships with narcissists? Because that really makes people feel stupid, because they're like, I thought I knew how to defend myself against this. And she was like, there's so many different types. And this guy was so good at giving you what you wanted, meeting your unmet needs. We talked about a lot. And it looked different than before. And it was covert, right? Like he knew what I, like you said, he knew what I went through with my ex-husband. And he knew all these things. And he played a part. And it's just been wild. And so I tell my very closest to your friends, this information. And I'm like, I have to tell my kids. And I said, no, I'm at home. And this isn't the life he wants anymore. And I don't have a lot more information than basically what I said. And immediately my daughter starts to cry. And she's trying to hide it from me. And I'm like, talked to me. And she's like, I am just so mad for you and for Lucy. And I knew this was going to happen. I never trusted him. And I said, what? Mind you, she was five when I met Noah. And she said, I didn't know how to explain to you that I didn't trust him. You were so happy. And I didn't know how to tell you. And I was like, I am so sorry that you had to live with that feeling. And I told them, I want you to talk to me. If you're feeling some strong feelings, I want you to be able to feel like you can come to me and talk to me. And not everything was bad. We had happy years. The first several years, it was happy. And because I'm a positive person, I'm like, you know, let's not everything was bad, right? We did have happy years. We did go on adventures. We did learn things. He may be this imaginary human. He is not who he said he was. But I'm taking that not all things were bad. Because in the end, I was being genuine. And I was learning things. And I was growing. And I told my kids, I didn't want them to erase every positive memory simply because this awful thing was happening. Right, it doesn't have to all be bad. Right. Well, what's your plan? And it's so soon, so if you don't have a full plan-- Well, I have a full plan. I am-- I'm going to file for divorce. But here's the thing that I-- you know, my theory. I think he was hoping that if he disconnected himself, that I'd just say, you know what, dude, don't even come home. And divorce on different terms. But now I have evidence that not only did he have an affair, he had a child as a result of that affair. And I can ask for a hell of a lot more in a divorce with infidelity. And I have a paper troll. I have the paternity paperwork. I don't know how much money he's making, but they will find, you know? So I have the form. I have to fill out the divorce decree. And I already know that I need hours of my time to fill this out because it is treacherous. Yeah, it takes forever. It is time-consuming. And so that's actually my goal for this weekend, you know. Filling that stuff out, I need to fill out-- in the state of Georgia, you can open up a child support case without actually being divorced. So I can open up that case. And maybe they can track him down as far as a job. So curious to hear where his money has been going. I mean, I'm sure we all have guesses. But I'm like, did he have any money? Like, I don't know what he's been doing all this time, other than cheating. Yeah. So that's crazy. Yeah. If he has a separate bank account, because if-- in fact, you know, because if not everything he said was a lie, right? So what the percentage of truth was? Everything he's ever said to me and everything he ever was. There's some truth to some of it, right? But if he's getting a paycheck, which he most likely is getting something, because at this point, I'm like, there's no way they're taking 100% check. Maybe 60%, maybe. But not 100%. He's hiding money from me then. But does he have a job? Is he getting paid? You know, those are the things that I don't have answers for. And-- If you're comfortable updating us, I would be interested, as well as how you and your kids and family are doing. Because what a journey. So in the last two weeks, I've told you Beverly, and I've been really-- we've been talking-- she's checks on me every day, every other day. You have to check on Beverly. I love her. And, you know, my sister-in-law checks in on me. My other sister-in-law, she checked in on me and all of them. They have all turned their backs on him. And before I spoke to, you know, for the intake call, Noah re-added me on Snapchat. Remember, I told you he removed me. Oh, why? And I had just-- I had just said to my friend the day prior, I am already coping ahead and mentally preparing myself for the event that he tries to return and ask for forgiveness. You up and left your child like you're not getting back. Right. And I was just like, does he not know that I am-- I have a PhD in this shit, right? Like, I know how to gray-rock things. I'm in the mode of-- I've done this before, dude, you know? So when I saw that request, I-- because I had just been telling my friend, and she goes, yeah, I can't wait to see you laugh in his face. And I said, oh, I'm going to send a video or like a voice recording, you know, how you can hit the voice and record an audio. I would be like, I'm audibly going to laugh in his face when he is coming back, you know, crawling back. Pleasure, small pleasures. Right. And then I get that request. And I was like, wow, I was shocked. It was that quick. But like, I haven't even accepted it. It's just sitting there. Just sitting there. Well, I vote for keeping that request sitting there because it's your turn to focus on you and your thing. I think no response is worse than like a-- Yeah, for real. That's so loud. Silence is loud. That is where I'm at 1,000% for sure. And my friend immediately emailed you guys about my story. And we both were kind of like, we'll see if anything comes of it, right? Because the biggest part of the betrayal was that he intentionally and calculatedly, he chose this. He knew how much it would hurt me. And he did it anyway. Like, what? And so for me, it's like, I know I'm not alone. I know that I'm not the only person going through this. And I think that it's important for women to-- you know, like, he checked off all the boxes. He was a totally normal dude. His family was a great-- you know, like, his family is great. Like, all these things. But there were small inconsistencies over time. But even though he had an explanation for everything, I think it's important that if you feel like something is off, you don't dismiss them. Dig deeper. Really, like, why do I feel this way? Because, like, McKenzie, were you saying the women tuition? What did you say? Fem tuition never needs evidence. Fem tuition, never needs evidence. And I think that that-- We always want it. Right. We always want to be just-- Because I'm evidence-based. And I wanted evidence before saying anything. But if it can help just even one person to-- if you are noticing small inconsistencies, like, do-- Even if you don't have to take action right away, like, your Fem tuition can give you the beginning of information gathering before you start accusing-- Yeah, like, you have to accuse right away because very rarely are they going to be like, oh, yeah, that's-- you got me. Right. Setting things aside and starting the process of protecting yourself and protecting your heart. Breaks my heart is also that he's just going to do this again. Even if he goes to this other woman-- Yeah, I mean, now he has another child who's about the same age and, like, very confusing, very damaging. And had I not experienced it, I had my first marriage, I don't know that I'd be this calm and resolved. And-- you know. know you will survive. Right, you've done it. And you know, because when I told my brother, his betrayal, you know, he feels just as betrayed, the same level of correct. Yep. And he has said to me, like, if you, if you weren't this calm, I don't know, it's keeping me grounded because he feels just as betrayed. It's just as deep for him, all of the time and money and everything that he invested into Noah, that it's, you know, like he was on to him. He said, I would, I would have considered him a close friend, like my brother in law and my close friend. And now we're question, who is this person? He's never been this person. He's just pretend he's been playing a part. And I was going to get him. Yeah. So talking to, to Claire, she's like, let's get you into therapy. And I was like, yeah, I probably should have started that after my first divorce, because you think that you're healed. You think that you move past and learn things and just also like the faith and humanity of like this seemed like a really solid dude. And well, Emmy, even if you are healed and have learned things, it's not your fault that that happened. And I understand the feeling of like, this is really fresh. Thank you for talking to us so soon. I know I can't believe how you're welcome. No, me neither. I honestly, I think it's good timing because it's easier for me to recount sure all of this information because I feel like this is a very traumatic experience. And I don't know what I might remember in a few months of just the details. Well, because there's so much that you're intaking right now, it's like you're trying to make room for everything. And you have to a little bit as to absorb so that more can come in. And it's a lot right now. So if you're still in limbo, like you have no idea, how do you feel emotionally towards him? Like do you feel heartbroken or mad or what are your feelings now? It has been mad. Yeah. Because when I initially find this out, my first question was, how long was he going to drag me along? How long was he just not going to come home for? You know, like if I hadn't found this out, when how long would he have gone on for? I couldn't wrap my head around it. Because he's been gone for two months now. Like how long, how much longer? If I didn't know this information, how much longer was he going to let me just say here? Yeah, yeah, how long was it just guessing when he's coming? Right, how long was he going to go on? But I've radically accepted I may never know the whole story. But I think he was trying to do both. And he did it horribly. And I don't think he anticipated what has transpired in the last couple of weeks. And well, they have that inflated sense of self. He thought he could get away with anything. Yeah, for sure. And as it turns out, it works to my advantage. And I will fully exploit it. And, you know, I'm probably going to ask for way more than what I would normally ask for as far as like divorce and just for pain and for parents time. Punitive can he says, you only care about the money? Okay. Now I care about the money. Watch. So remember, we've we've borrowed money and the people we've borrowed money from, you know, like, you don't owe me money. He owes me money. And I said, wait till I'm divorced from him. And then you can go after him on a judgment, because that will follow him for 10 years. And you can know it very easily. Please keep us updated. I will heal. And all of our love to the kids and you and your family and not to him. And yes, thank you. And truly, like this will help other people. And it is hopefully healing to put it all out there. Yeah, I definitely, I want to keep you guys updated because my goal is literally this weekend to get that divorce paperwork filled out. And I'm just going to print off my little evidence, because I've got that previous attorney case thing to. Well, that's going to be very telling when you go to court because the court's going to compel him to share his employment history, his employment information. So he'll be compelled to share that and he'll have to. So then we're really going to get answers there. Oh, my God. Okay. This is what I'm saying. I did not expect there would be another child. Like, I need her for sure, maybe another relationship. But I, I don't know why that threw me off. But I think it's because you know how like she, I think that she thought she knew how to spot a narcissist because of her. Yeah, we talked about it a little with her. But yeah, it's almost like, and I'm sure people can relate to this. You come out of a bad relationship. And you're like, I've learned from it. And you, yeah, you have. And yet, there's almost this false sense of security coming out of it because you're still maybe susceptible to a different kind of narcissism or abuse or any kind of mistreatment. And it's like, it's so hard. Because then you feel even worse. I was thinking it would be maybe good to go through the different types of narcissists. Yes, I'm on the Family Institute at Northwestern University's website, Northwestern great school. I trust them. But we've talked about this before, but I just feel like people don't, we throw around the word narcissist all the time. It's very popular in social media. And it's not even like a label we're diagnosing what it really is as a scale. Like I, I'm like, all of us have tendencies that could align with a narcissistic personality. It doesn't mean that we are like diagnosed narcissists. You know, it's like, it's all a scale. So there's different kinds and different levels of impact. And at the end of the day, the label doesn't matter. It's the behavior that is important in the impact that's important. So, but let's just like go through a little bit. So the first is malignant narcissist. This form takes this is from this is a quote, this form takes the grandiose narcissists. It adds a more exploitative antagonistic Machiavellian and at times seemingly psychopathic overlay, malignant narcissists drive people to the edge and leave them feeling betrayed fearful, manipulated, tricked and devastated. So this is often referred to as the dark triad. It's like psychopathy. So psychopath Machiavellianism, which is just like that manipulative like Machiavell, you know, the guy that did the wars and stuff. Yeah, yeah, narcissism. And sometimes sadism. So they get like pleasure out of it. Yeah, lack of they really enjoy it sometimes. These are often very charming people. It's, it's an extreme, it's an extreme, extreme case. These are, yeah, these are great. These are the big, big bad wolves. Yeah, yeah. So that's big bad one. communal narcissists are very engaged in the community. So this is the person that maybe is like posting online about all the ways that they're changing the world. They really need to feel like they're the savior that they're maybe superior to people because they do work for the less fortunate, but in doing that, their brain is positioning them as better than other people, you know, and they need a lot of validation. So, you know, they're not, hey, if you're doing community service, I guess I don't care where you're why you're doing it. It's nice that you're doing it, but you're not doing it for the right reasons. You know, yeah, they're, I see what you're saying. They want that kind of, oh, good on you. And they're like, look at what I do, look at what I do. They want to show off for themselves or something. Yeah. And also this says that they derive a sense of self from the idea of being a giver, but they are also incredibly entitled about it. Like, they don't actually have a lot of empathy. They just are like, you should, you should be thanking me. Why aren't you thanking me? Like I deserve it. They are amazing. Yeah. That makes total sense. So that's an interesting one. Neglectful narcissists don't engage with anyone unless they want something from you. I feel like I've met these people. Oh, so they like, they'll, like, go shoot, go shoot for a while and then all of a sudden they're come back and they're like, oh, hey, girl, like they want to hook up or they need money or something? Literally, it's somebody who doesn't really have genuine connections unless there's something to gain. Yeah. Okay. Yep. Not a fun way to live in my opinion. I agree. I agree. Okay. But nine narcissists often exhibit a lack of empathy entitlement and grandiosity. However, others experience their lack of empathy as being clueless. Their entitlement is being clumsy and their group grandiosity as being childlike. So these people, it's saying like these are the individuals that only talk about themselves. And they make everything about them. And they have a superficial immaturity that kind of like gets a lot of attention. Like they need a lot of attention. But they're not necessarily harmful. Entitled narcissists. I feel like there might have been some of that. I don't know. Entitlement is visible in the behavior of others and is the belief that we deserve special treatment without cause or reason. Okay. Okay. That's just a definition of entitlement. So true. That's that's purely entitled. We get that. So yeah, this is a self-righteous person. It, you know, they have this idea that rules do not apply to them. And their view of the world is always right. That's what they operate with. And then the next one is generational or cultural narcissist. This type of narcissist is one of the most difficult to describe even in the consideration of it being a form of narcissism, narcissism, narcissism. So this is sometimes like if your parent looks or acts narcissistic and you learn it through them, it influences your behaviors. So it's like an intergenerational pattern, which is sad because, you know, that's not your fault necessarily. And some of these narcissistic traits are the same as saying you're trying to ask a zebra to have spots instead of stripes. Like some of them are baked into your personality, which doesn't mean you can't work on it, but it isn't easy to change. But this one I think is very much a learned behavior. Like learned entitlement, learned social status, learned manipulation. It's a reflection of how you grew up. So that's that. - Yeah. - I wanted to ask you, Miss Private Investigator, another thing that came up on the latest podcast episode I just mentioned is talking about how spotting lies, it's important to focus on what is verifiable and what is not. And I felt like a lot of what he shared in his story. It's not really a verifiable lie. - Right. - So you have to choose whether you want to believe it or not because you're not going to get evidence out of that. - Right. - But there were some things that I wanted to ask you if there are ways to verify them, such as the hospital debts. Like if somebody claims that their checks are being garnished to pay off, like I honestly was like getting confused the way he explained it. Like what do you do if someone tells you about that? Is there anything you can do to try to find information about this debt? - You can. So it's a matter. This is where social engineering comes in because you're not allowed to call a hospital. They can't tell you any information. There's some others all this stuff. But if it's gone to a debt collector and you say, "Hey, I want to pay this bill." They're going to give you any information you want to get the bill paid, right? So if you talk to them in the right way, there are ways to what we call pretext or pretend you are something you're not to get information. This is where cops are different than private investigators. Cops are not allowed to get that information that way. That's called illegal, improper illegal obtaining of evidence or whatever. - And we are not legally allowed to either as civilian so we are not encouraging this. - Right. - We're just talking about it. - No, you absolutely, I'm not encouraging it. But there is a way that you can do a little bit of social engineering and say the things that make somebody go, "Oh, you want to pick." Because the people that do the bill collecting, they have their job because they're good at collecting money. So the more they collect money, the better. So if you call the bill collector and you say, "Hey, I have this bill that needs to be paid." But this is, it's this much money. And it's $150,000 or however much he said. And then she's like, "Well, really it's just $11." Or whatever. Then you know this is, "Do you know what I mean?" You'll know if it's right or whatever. And then you'll be like, "Well, he said it was $100 grand, but really it's only $12 then you know he's lying." - Or, what if they like look it up and they're just like, "I don't have record of this." - Yeah, then you, then you know, there's nothing. Like, there's what do you do? You know what I mean? Like, if there's no way, if they're saying no, this is not accurate, then there's nothing there then you know he's lying. - And then what do you do? - I mean, you don't want to live your life being like, "Oh, you're going to visit your friend with cancer? What hospital is he at?" - Yeah. - Like, you don't want to be the person that's asking all those questions, but at the same time, it's like the right person who's not hiding anything isn't going to be mad that you're asking those, I don't think. - There'll be like, you know what, this is like, it's really shitty, but also it's- - Just saying you want to sunflowers. - Yep, yep, that too. That, see that social engineering, that's something that you can pretext. And by the way, whenever we get compelled in a courtroom to tell how we obtain the information, that's called work product, we don't have to provide that. Whereas law enforcement has to provide a chain of evidence, how they came into it, how they, who's hand by hand, you know, we don't have to do that, so that's where it varies. But there are ways to verify, you just have to be really, really savvy, basically. - Man, I feel like now she and her friends are on the case, and as she goes through the next process of divorce and obtaining, you know, retribution, she- - What happens in the dark will come into the light. She'll find out. - And she said, I mean, to the extent that she's comfortable, we are so open to updates. So if we get updates, maybe we'll share them on Patreon. - I just know, they're gonna come up with something because, you know, girls, we don't stop. - No, she's got a good crew. That was really special to hear about. And I felt for so much when she was talking about how she was like, I wasn't as vulnerable with the people in my life as I should have been. Like, I totally get that feeling of not wanting to admit what's going on. - And not wanting to feel like you're a burden. Like, not wanting to feel like, what was me, you guys, what was me? Like, you want to look like you're- - She's like a strong person, and probably wanted me to do that. - Sometimes we don't want to admit that things aren't as great as we put them out to be. - And we feel shame around that. - Well, she's a good mom and should be proud of the way she's navigating this for her kids and for herself. So we're all in her corner, and I think as sucky as it is, I'm glad she's. - But also- - I want to know from our audience who is on Team Emmy or Emma, the other girl. - Oh yeah, the other baby mama? - Yeah, like, did she do, obviously, she has the right to just not say anything, right? But also, should she have said, like, should she have gone- - I'm sorry. - Like, should she have said something? I don't know, I don't know. - I think my thing is always like, your personal safety and your children's safety is first. So if there's some part of the situation that's like she feels- - No, she doesn't want anything to do with this guy or whatever, like, we don't know that. But if not, and she's just being kind of petty and, like, cheated on her husband with this guy, and I don't know, like, yeah, there could definitely be a case of, okay, that's not ideal. You're not being a girl's girl. - Yeah, there's definite- - And there's no law. Like, there's no rule that you have to be a girl's girl, but also don't be a dick. - Yeah. - Oh, come on. - Don't be a dick. - Well, I love me, and we will pass on any support that you sent her. If you know what it feels like to have to, you know, tell your kids what's going on. And that was so hard thing to hear and sending her a lot of love. - And all of you, a lot of love for what I'm going through. - I think the mama part is the hardest because, like, the little one doesn't even know. The little one's just like, what for? This is fine. What's going on? I don't know. And that really sucks because- - How do you walk away from your kid? - How do you walk away from your kid that drives me nuts? - I don't understand. And she said she was like, it's a lot easier for him to do it than for the woman to do it. - And also how shitty for the older daughter, the older daughter. Like, she's the one who spilled the beans. And I think she might have, I think there's something in her heart that wanted it, that wanted to say something. I think she felt it was the right thing to do. But also, like, it's just not fair to her at all. - No, as an 18-year-old, 19-year-old, whatever age she is, like, she's so young and in such a bad position that I'm sad that he- I blame him completely for putting her in that position and lying to everyone. - It is not fair. - Oh, I hope that- Oh, Beverly? Queen. - Oh, grandma. - Grandma. - Love her. - Mom said, "This boy, this boy is ridiculous." - Not the man I raised. I love that. And she's being good to the grandkids, even the ones that are not biologically hurt. - I love that. - I love that. I love that. - Good for her. Family can come in all different sizes and shapes and colors. And it's beautiful that it's chosen because that sometimes it's not that it means more. It's just like, even- it's powerful in a different way that they can choose to stay with each other. - Absolutely. - So there's something to be said for that, you know? You know, text people that you love. Right now, that's your homework. Just check in with the friend that you haven't talked to in a minute and just be like, "Hey, I was thinking of you because you never know who needs to vent or who needs you in their center." - Yep, 100%. - Well, that was a, I mean, not a good story, but a wild story. - Yeah, thank you guys for listening and give her as much support as, you know, as you can. We, she would obviously really appreciate it just considering that it's still so fresh. - And if you have a story, you can email us, investigate at thedatingdetectivespodcast.com, whether it's long or short or a roommate and tick one or a friend or whatever. Sometimes we read stories on Patreon that are not like completely aligned with our premises as a show. We don't care if it's a good story. That's important. We want to talk about it. Send us what's happened. I like our love story. Send me a happy love story. - Yeah, we all need it to always be sad. Thank you. Thank you very much. - I kind of like the good love story and so do I, so you can send them. - Love you and love you, Mackenzie. - I love you. And as always, trust your intuition. [BLANK_AUDIO]