The Cannes Debate: Why sport is becoming marketing’s most powerful platform

Hello and welcome to the CAN debate, a three-part series from us at Leaders on Sports New Place in the Media and Marketing Ecosystem. My name's James Emmett and the Editorial Director at Leaders. My name's Alex Chakum. I head up strategy and consulting at Fuse. Together over the course of this series, Alex and I will be asking, why and how? Sport has taken a central position in brand marketing and communications. What are the evolving trends that should see sport dominate the marketing agenda? And what's the point of CAN for the sports industry? Alex, we're here finally in CAN. Welcome back. Thank you. Set the scene for us. Well, first of all, I'll quickly point to our guests, Dan Clays, the chief executive of Omnicon Media for the EMIA region. You got it right. I got that right first time. Very good. Thank you. Yeah. Alex, set the scene for us. Where are we? I can hear the thump of music. Yes. The Grindr busses in full swing. You can't find it really well. Activation just outside. Before we get in. Yeah. That's how we roll. We're in the Omnicon space, brilliant facility here in CAN first time. I've been here. Yeah. And it's been a brilliant day so far. So the great and the good of Omnicon Media and broader Omnicon are here, alongside a lot of other sort of publishers and entities that have made the trip down to CAN. It's great to have Dan here because we really want your view on where sport sits in the wider sort of media and marketing ecosystem you're outside as view. But Alex, if you will, can you just give us a real bullet point reflection on the first episode that we did with Kenny and Jonathan? Kenny was brilliant. He's obviously here in full force, and I think he might have bumped into him a couple of times since you've been here. But now a really, really great star. He's obviously got a major role to play here at CAN. So gave us that particular point of view in terms of what it's all about, what the prominence of sport that keeps on getting more significant with each year that goes by at CAN. Obviously, it's my first time here, so I'm living and breathing it as we speak. But we talked about loads of other stuff. We talked about sports role and media and marketing. We talked about the importance of considering it alongside your other traditional marketing investments. We talked about rights and benefits. We talked about sport leaning into loads of other verticals, fashion, lifestyle and all of the brilliant rights holders, such as PSG and Liverpool who are capitalising on that. So, yeah, we'll see how that plays out in the next few days. Or sort of sitting in a kind of advertising marketing giant in Omnicom. We'd love to get your view on how you've seen sport move into the mainstream, really, I guess. But tell us a little bit about your sport, sport, sponafide. I've seen you in there in the Omnicom space and now you've had sports content in there. Yes. And you were nodding along. Like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You look like you were into that sport's content. Tell us about you and your sort of sports relationship. Yeah, and it has been a huge day for our approach to sport and the confidence we have around sport and entertainment has only come today with pretty much dedicated big chunk of the sessions today. Through sport, what we're doing, how we're investing into it, both from a talent and a product and capability perspective. So, yeah, there's a huge amount of interest and excitement around what we're doing in the sport. Your question was, your relationship with sport? My relationship with sport and how it fits into what I do or what I've done. Yeah, generally, like, are you a sports fan? Have you worked inside the sports industry have you always been in marketing? Yeah. Okay. All right. We'll jump around a bit. I am a full disclosure. I'm a big Liverpool fan. Yeah. Sorry about that. And it was great to have the guys from Liverpool actually in the Omnicom space had nothing to do with it or the guy. But the guys came in today and it was good to see those folks here. I mean, I love all sport. I mean, I watch a ton of it. I go and see a ton of it. I used to play a lot of rugby growing up since quitting. I sort of then did a lot of running and sort of, you know, the classic five and 10 Ks, which means I've sort of changed shape a bit since my rugby days. But I'd probably even love football even more, you know, growing up. So, yeah, somehow I'll despite growing up in Essex where most of my pals were West Ham fans. I was deciding to loan wolf simply because. Glory hunter. Glory hunter. Yeah. Kenny Dalgley, she and Rush and the works. So good. But once it's in you, it's in you. And then in terms of how it factors into what I do. So, yeah, you're right. I run Omnicom Media for the Amir region. My path to that was I was going to media. It was the first proper job really. And that was in TV planning. And then around 2000, I moved into a digital agency, a specialist digital agency. And I learned all about the digital industry and that that for 10 years. That was really about being entrepreneurial as much as it was about being a kind of a digital kind of expert. It was both, you know, there was a, I think what happened in that sort of first decade of the 2000s. Everybody in that space felt like anything was possible. And I really bought into that. And then after 10 years of doing that, I moved to OMD. One of our agencies at Omnicom Media. I ran that for the UK. Then I ran Omnicom Media Group. And at that point, Fuse, our sports marketing and entertainment specialist, the Fusiliers, as I like to call them, just an amazing group of folks, brilliant talent. We'll talk about them as we go through. Came under my sphere because I was running Omnicom Media for the UK. And it's entirety and I was very, very lucky to work with the likes of Lou and Marlon and Alex and a whole bunch of brilliant, brilliant people. And did that for the UK. And then after doing that for a period of time was fortunate enough to take on that role for the whole region. And I'm really what that's about. My job is how do I make sure that I've got one eye on how clients are growing today, but also tomorrow so that we've got the right people, we've got the right capabilities, we've got the right specialist expertise for our clients to unlock new paths to growth. And so when you think about the trajectory that sports on, that becomes quite a big part of what I do as well as being a kind of across media data and technology person. So my job is across the spectrum of media. But of course, the key vertical within that is sport. And then sure, we'll talk about how sport has become increasingly central to a lot of those things. And so I make sure that our sports capabilities are kicking along very nicely across all of our markets. And it's crazy to think that a mere comprise of over 60 countries, that we've got operations in, 20 that take up a lot of my time. And yeah, I'm very fortunate and get to see some great sports. Don't play it as much. But you've still got a good 10k time, and I'm decent on 10k. I do date this morning on the, I know if the camera can show surprise face right now. Yeah, I couldn't quite get the final two over the line. It was hot. And then I spent an hour essentially coming down and finding a route back to my hotel that I knew that I wouldn't see anyone. I wasn't particularly looking quite at that. But I do like it. I find it mentally, it's a really good thing to get it on the road. Question I guess for both of you for our predominantly sports industry audience for this podcast, give us a sense of the scope and breadth of Omnicon media, the stuff that you're obviously 60 territories in the AMIA. But give us a sense of the breadth of the clients that you work with, the types of organisations that you have within the group. And then Alex, how sport fits into that? Yeah, I mean, we're very proudly convergence records us as the largest media ecosystem in the world now. I think it's in public domain that they have quoted that something like over 70 billion of dollars is through our business with the clients that we're very proud to work with, which comprise of incredible brands like McDonald's, VW, Pepsi, we will talk about a lot of these through the course of the session today. And yeah, we're operational in over 100 markets around the world as I said, we've given you the numbers for Omnicon media. But yeah, it's an incredible business working with truly iconic brands. You know, you're going to work and having a conversation about Apple or Warner. These are just, awesome, awesome businesses. And they cut across all categories, you know, from finance to the grosses, to cart, auto, so whole range of categories that we work with. And then in the region of AMIA, we've got something like 15,000 people across the footprint. Yeah. And Alex, how does Fuse plug into it all and ultimately is Dan responsible for giving you a pay rise or not at the end of the year? Yeah, I think our reason for being came about because I think of a desire for the media agencies, in particular to diversify their client offerings and sports partnerships and sponsorship in their traditional sense, having a really prominent role to play in mainstream media. We're seeing at the moment of the World Cup, right? All the advertising around the programming is very, very sponsor, sponsor focused. And of course, they are paying for that incrementally above and beyond their rights investments. So I think for us, we were born out of a media agency because of the the role that both can play. And actually, I think as we've evolved and grown, we've, I think, been able to demonstrate the power that sport can play in elevating our client advertising, as well as some great research a couple of years ago with System One. And we're able to show that actually when you bring that sports IP and content and assets into advertising, the memories that can be built off the back of that amongst your target audiences are stronger. And we know that there's memories and associations are really important in terms of driving mental availability in particular. So all of that, I think, has really helped us build a much more stronger and prominent offering. And it's something our clients really value as well, because we can offer those services under one roof. It might look easy when you turn on the TV and you see the ads. And it's all very straightforward. But actually, getting that integration, getting that collaboration, that's not just on the agency side, but it's the client side. You've got different people looking after different budgets and different areas of expertise. Once you bring it all together, I think, the actual impact is a heck of a lot stronger, as well. So I think that's the advantage of sports sitting within a media agency in particular. I got a feeling that, Dan, this isn't his first road here at Cannes. I think he's been here before. But Alex, how have you been here for almost a full day? Almost a full day. You give us your red eye this morning. There's a huge storm coming out of London. So actually, a couple of my colleagues got delayed. But straight here, really, I've done about half a mile down the closet, got as far as Spotify. It's quite hot. Lipton had some sort of crazy coffee, infusion, match, a thing. And came back. So I haven't actually seen a lot of it at the moment, but there's some brilliant events happening this evening. Is it overwhelming as a first time? Not yet, actually. I've told to me tomorrow on Thursday, and I think I'm a couple of days in, and then I might change my view, but I'm actually quite excited about tonight. There's an England game going on. There's an England game right here. Dan, what's your can history? Your history is can and can's history with you. Yeah, well, I think. I don't know for sure. I'd be pretty confident my first can was 20 years ago. I know I have a can t-shirt that he's now, so we've got holes in the stuff, and that's. I'm pretty confident that's 2006 can line t-shirt. And. I bet they'd be giving them away. They were selling them. Exactly. They didn't, tote bags didn't exist in those days. It has got the scale of it. It's just vast now. Of course, the impact of global platforms has grown enormously over those two decades, and so the presence of technology has woven itself into the media and the creative industries is now here to stay. I imagine it was global back then, but it certainly is now, in terms of attendees. You look at people's land yards, you're like, "Wow, OK, trying to spot someone just from the UK." It's like, you know, or from Europe. In fact, there's a big US contingent. There's people from all around. It's a very global event. It's very well attended. I think there's a lot of purpose for why people come, genuinely. You know, the pace of change, the level of disruption that marketers are facing, they're truly sort of sectioning time off in the annual calendar now, I think, to come here to make sure they're having some conversations that they don't have in the sort of day-to-day about how they reset for the future. And then last year, I was very lucky. Feels like a bit of a can, named drop, mic drop, but I was the president of a media lines last year, which was a very unique experience. Yeah. And one that I, you know, it sounds slightly cliché, but I was, I treasured it. It was incredible. I want to go into this because I know a few people who have done that role, and obviously, there's a big privilege and they're very proud to talk about it always. But it strikes me that you get asked to do that, and it's a sort of big moment in your career, but you maybe don't think about what actually that means in terms of the work that you have to do. Yeah. You're in a room for hours. I think you, you know, you say yes within a nanosecond. Yeah. Because it's obvious, and you check with your boss, flow my boss in New York, and he was like, that's amazing. Go ahead, go do it. Because it does mean that when you come here, you're not up-frair until the middle of the week, because you've been here from Friday through to the Monday night/ there's a lot of kind of engagements to do as well, Tuesday, Wednesday. So it does take a big chunk of your time. And of course, you are watching, reviewing, scoring, a lot of work in the preceding two months, I think, from memory. And you're thousands of entries, right? There were two and a half-ish, thousand pieces of work entered, and the way that that is distributed to get scored is that each juror will score around 650 pieces of work, which sounds a lot, but it's done in two waves. And you just commit to it, you tell the family and friends that you're doing this thing, and it's genuinely, genuinely, providing that you spread it over time and don't kind of cram it towards the end. You can just take the opportunity to immerse yourself in the work, and that was really, really the big thing for me was to spend so much time understanding what people around the world in marketing roles or agency's thought was like the benchmark of great creativity. And yeah, it was brilliant, brilliant, brilliant, to be able to just immerse yourself in the work. And yeah, I utterly, utterly loved it. You're running sessions in their space here in Onnicom. And I came along to one earlier, Lou Johnson, who runs Fuse, was running an excellent session with folks from Mercedes Formula One, from Pepsi, from a Spanish brand, whose name I've forgotten. And the CMO from Angelic Soca, Radica De Gaulle. During that session, I spotted John Shea, the CEO of Octagon in the room. I spotted Shad Khan, the owner of Fullham and Jacksonville Jaguars, just chilling out at the back of the room. You got a room full of big hitters in there. And I wonder if, you know, what are you hearing, both of you? Like, what are the, what are the conversations you talk about? Cancels are really important time for marketers to come and, and have the conversations that they're not having for the rest of the year. What type of conversations have you been having in that room? I personally would have thought they'd come to hear Louise. Of course I did. I think what's consistent across clients that I'm talking to is, as you might expect, huge amount of disruption in the marketplace, whether that is because of, I can't think it's probably the first time I've mentioned it, AI. Changing patterns in how people are using commerce and retail, pattern shifting, consumer behavior shifting. So huge amount of disruption. Fragmentation, you know, at a high. I'm not sure if it's sort of incrementally increasing your of the year, but it's certainly the level of fragmentation for last couple of years has been huge. So, you know, how do marketers find their path to attention and impact and distinctiveness? And how do they choose the right systems of influence? So the fragmentation piece is big. Saturation of content, I mean, wow, that's just a volume of content now. Is, is, is, do you say hockey sticking? Or do you say, you know, the exponential growth in content? So I think what it does, as I say, opens up new questions. And I think clients recognize that they've got to think about not just their core communications channels and media channels, but how do they capitalize on the new sources of influence for them? And how do they connect them? How do they prioritize them? How do they measure them? How do they measure the kind of the connectivity between, you know, commerce, sport, creators? Because they know that they won't necessarily use them in isolation. But how do you prioritize that? And then it's, you know, it's possibly the sort of most pragmatic part of it. But how do how do clients organize themselves and their agency partners and their rights hold ponds? How do they organize themselves in the future to capitalize on it? Yeah. So it's about, it's about navigating the complexity that is in front of everybody, staying calm, keeping perspective, everyone's in the same boat. But you know, the questions that were being asked, how do we capitalize? How do we organize around it? How do we measure for this new world? How do we have the right type of capability that's going to enable us to take advantage? Yeah, absolutely. I think what we say, well, I'm really interested to see here today is kind of the coming together of different ways of doing things as well. We've got a lot of European presence. We've got a lot of North American presence. I think in particular North America, if you think of the size of that geography, sport is literally one of the things that the entire country watches. Because of just the nature of the kind of broadcast and media landscape there, there's lots of national channels, regional channels, local channels. And I think sport in the US has always been very media focused. We talk about the Super Bowl moment. It's the sort of annual showpiece there. And contrast that to Europe, I think where sport still remains a massive media moment. But actually, I think where we're really pushing it, certainly from our side of things is how else do you use all of those assets that you get with sport? The IP, the content, the talent, the data, and everything in between? How do you infuse your broader marketing with that in a way which isn't necessarily visible on TV, but is still having a massive impact? How do you bring it into your customer ecosystem? How do you bring it into your retail environments? If you'll be to be, how are you using those platforms to deepen relationships with customers, using to get those customers over the line? Such a full spectrum of opportunities. And I think there's a bit of an awakening going on as to what that can be. I saw last year when I was pouring through the work, sport. became the springboard for the campaign. It was at the center of the campaign that then other elements needed to activate around. So the bet was made around that sport as a really important vehicle for the brand to connect with culture, but then it didn't, it had to be more than that as well. So it was like, okay, how do you then tap into what creates and do? How are you gonna connect that with the live broadcast of that show? How are you gonna think about the commerce side of things? For the folks that are listening or watching this conversation, go and check out some of the work that Makai Leighbury have done. There are an online commerce. That was the name I was about earlier. Yeah, they're awesome. And actually Daniel Ara had won the Grand Prix the year before I judge. And so he was invited into the jury. He was the one Markter in the jury who spoke so much sense, but also he spoke about how they have kind of got a bit of a formula for how they, and they do use sport a lot. I think they've done it again this year. I think they won the Grand Prix this year for, I think, implementing a massive barcode, a massive barcode onto a sports, like, I imagine a football field, I think it is, like a televised football field. And obviously that's just gonna attract all sort, people's like, you know, a QR code. A QR code. It's just a brilliant idea. And they did something similar last year around what is the massive, put you on the spot? What's the huge South American football cop out? To Doris? To Doris. Well done. That's right, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. What they did, let me just, I'll indulge myself on this because I just love this piece of work. What they did was they recognised that was going to be that final, they recognised that sports event which is going to be so huge, it was going to develop so much coverage. So they partnered with it, but what they also did was they put a coupon onto the ticker tape, the gold ticker foil that drops down and all the players that they do in South American football games, knowing that that photograph was going to be the most photographed picture on all of the National Press next day, and then they ran the lads saying, if you look closer at this photograph, you will see that there's a code. So they put sport at the heart of it, but then they wrapped around media to kind of make it feel bigger. And I think that for me was a bit of a wake up moment to go, wow, okay, if I think about all the amazing work we've done in sport, it's just moved on so much from just saying, okay, we want to partner with a sports brand or an event and to draw on the association that that provides for us, but actually want to take that a lot further now. Yeah. And I think that's how it's moved on really quickly. Yep. So it went down a little. No, that was good. That was good. You went down a copper libertadora's hold. Sorry, you indulged me. I'm not sure. No, I'm good. Dan, do you think that sports place in Cannes Cannes here corresponds to its place in the wider marketing and media ecosystem? The context behind that is, I think I'm right in saying, and you would know better than me, but that sports role here at Cannes has grown and seems to grow every year. There are a very basic level. There is more content in and around sport on stages across the closet and even in the ballet itself. There are clearly more participants from within the wider sports ecosystem here. It's not just rights holders, it's not just agency folks. It's, you know, the whole is sort of technical supply as the whole breadth of what constitutes a sports ecosystem. Is that it? I'm here. It's, and it's growing in sport beach, sprung up a few years ago, Stagwell, who aren't necessarily known for being very big in sports. Suddenly have a big sports presence. There's a hub. Sport Lion was introduced a few years ago as well. Sports, now a big thing here at Cannes. Is it also a big thing in the media and marketing industry? Yeah, it is. I think I mentioned earlier about this sort of need to find ways to grab and garner attention and cut through and be distinctive and to find ways into the culture of the brands need to find ways into the culture of what their audiences are talking about in a non-invasive way and to feel part of what they want to, you know, part of those communities. And if I think, if you think about sport, is there anything beyond sport that people truly love? Stay loyal to. Never miss when something significant is on in a world where we sort of scroll and, you know, spend hours going down wormholes and, you know, this is like a point of view. I will not miss England Garner tonight is happening. Whatever's happening. It's not a drama that I might park and watch tomorrow night. So it's guaranteeing audience, it's passionate. It's what people love. It creates loyalty in a way that I'm not sure what other properties do that. Music to an extent, but not that. Not that that fierce kind of loyalty around it, not the sort of the support base, the follower base, the community base that comes with it. It's just it's unique in that respect. And so in a world where people are distracted, fragmented, it absolutely provides an anchor for brands to hook onto, if you like. And so therefore, when you think about media marketing comms, it absolutely is key to key to what we do. And I think for us, specifically, I'm interested in how you go from that opportunity to the other capabilities that we provide. So whether that is in data management, identity, commerce, how the opportunity to be spoken be expanded. And it can enable brands to develop, you know, strengthen their data asset or like Pepsi and the amazing work that they've done with views, actually, to capitalize on their investment into sport and taking that into shopper and into retail. So it's not there's no dead ends in that partnership, you know, it's about how you take it from, as I said earlier, the opportunity of tapping into that love, that passion, that loyalty and using other capabilities to stretch it and have even more impact. I want to go into some more examples if you can of kind of the work that the brands that you're working with, the brands that you're seeing and talking to are doing in and around the sports pace. But I want to offer you one potential analogous area to sport that I can see at least in that as American politics. I think we are going through the sportification of a merit, specifically American politics, where it's always a fight. And then you've got to pick a side and this classic red against blue. And there was so many aspects of sort of sports broadcasting process that go on in American politics. And I think, you know, that's just becoming who's sponsoring it. Yeah, where's the brand opportunity? Yeah, yeah, maybe next time it's next time. I mean, I've been in Can with Brexit here for Brexit. Yeah. Now being here for a prime ministerial. Did you see the thing they if they happen around Wimbledon? Is that right? Yeah, the pro all the the last five British prime ministers who have resigned have either resigned during Wimbledon qualifying, Wimbledon or just after Wimbledon. Well, there's probably been more prime ministers than have new Wimbledon champions in that almost certainly. Almost certainly. Almost certainly. Brands themselves then. Yes. And the conversations that you have with CMOs, yeah, who have this increasingly complex picture in front of them, which you both articulated earlier. What are they, what are they sharing with you at the moment? What's other than, oh my God, what do I do? Like, what is keeping them up at night? What are they saying to you and how are you responding to that? I mean, we both have a guy this. I mean, I think they're all CMOs that we work with and have conversations with. Growth is the name of the game. That's what we're here to do. That's what they're here to do in commentsal growth. How can they prove that that investment? The work of their teams is driving incremental growth. How can they increasingly predict and create confidence around the bets that they're making? Well, they shouldn't be bets, you know, because they're, you know, very informed plan decisions. But I think the thing that we should never drift too far away from is we are in the business of designing for growth. And the requirement increasingly is how we can not only use our creativity, our partnerships, our innovation to come up with the ideas that are going to drive demand and inspire audiences and, you know, and generate interest in the brands. But, you know, how are we going to convert that into sales? How are we going to capitalize on the impact that has into the performance of the marketing? And then how do we measure it? And how do we look at crane models that are sustainable and scalable? You know, it's not about doing stuff that is happening in one market or once, once a year, clients are looking at, okay, how do I do have growth? But how do I find a formula that's going to be sustainable, repeatable? And also that they can organize in an efficient way that doesn't require, you know, you know, a cost that is just not manageable. And then the other part that we'll be remiss. to talk about is AI and technology and I think clients, ages, have obviously got access and embedding models into the platforms, into technology they use. I think what we've started to see now though is, okay, not just having access to the technology and how you've integrated it into your workflows, but also the craft of how people are using it and how can they not just create productivity improvements, but actually how's that going to get more effective outcomes, more creative solutions. Last year there were judging the work, there were five or six cases that stood out with AI. I think it would have been hard on the jury this year to work out the ones that didn't include it. It's a big talking point, but I think the focus for me when chatting to CMOs is not just have you got it and it's really about the AI craft, have you helped skilled your people to be able to capitalize on it for us. Yeah, I sometimes zone out when people are discussing AI because there was so much discussion around AI at the moment and a lot of it is technical and so I think it's not wheel zone out. But someone said to me the other day here in Cannes, she was a designer in fact, she was just telling me that she used an AI, a bit of AI software to sign her up to everything that she wanted to go to at Cannes and then she had to spreadsheet with all the QR codes and stuff and I just thought and it took an instant and I thought well that's a real world problem that I've got at the moment. And that was a sort of gateway into a discussion that I didn't zone out on. Do you want to have a go on the CMA? Yeah, I think take that point, it's growth. I mean it looks and feels slightly different relative to Brown, relative to Category Relatives, audience, you know, the Pepsi example every day consumer, what they're trying to achieve is different if you're a car, if you're a B2B, where the buying cycle is four years, five years, a bit longer. What we generally tend to see are two questions. One is how do we grow our market share and second, how do we grow our category? And actually AI examples really, really interesting because we got a couple of clients in the stable. From their perspective, it's very much a category and a category. How do we get people to use this thing if they don't trust it, if they don't know how to use it, if they're not familiar with it. And that's where we're having the conversations around sport. In particular, it's how do you break down those barriers to usage is by injecting something these people care about into their user experience around AI so that they become more trustful, they become more familiar and actually they can see the fruits of their labor a bit more because to echo the example, you just go, "Wow, this thing can actually really help my overall experience." And then from a sort of market share perspective, we see it a lot in, in things like ride hailing or in particular where a lot of, you know, we're all used to using Uber or we're all used to using Bolt or whatever it might be. But actually, a lot of people didn't trust it. There's a lot of people who still prefer Black Cabs, so a lot of people who still work with their local minicale company. So actually the challenge there is kind of the same bit a little bit different as well. So again, what we, the argument is, let's play a role in culture and use that as a barrier to break down these particular barriers in a way which can play against those two different areas. Yeah. Right, the Grindr bus is just up the volume. They have a bit, I think that it's the crescendo on its way. So to end, I thought, let's just have a few little tidbits and I'll give you some time to think about this. I want the most interesting or best thing that you've heard so far, or most surprising, most interesting or unlikely person that you've bumped into. And also, I do want sort of most ridiculous thing that you've heard someone utter. Okay. So I'll just tell you that too. I've got two that just jump in. Oh, you don't want to tackle the ridiculous one. And I'm going to do the ridiculous one at the end if I can think of something. Last night, I was very lucky to go to an evening with Oprah Winfrey. Oh, well. And I, you know, truthfully, didn't know what to expect. I knew it was a big deal. But she was interviewed by the producer. I think it was the producer. She's about to do a whole thing with Amazon, a whole series on Amazon now. I think that's where she's going to be next on. Anyway, just listening to her was incredible. Yeah. Honestly, it's incredible. And to answer your question, the thing, a couple of things that she talked about that resonated with me, one was she does everything with intent. And I think that the danger is we don't sometimes and we go to staff and we actually haven't thought about what's our intention here. But every single thing she does is what's the intent? What am I trying to do? Why am I doing this? What am I looking to get out of this? And I think that really struck a chord with me. And then the second thing she said was making sure that in life you do what you love. And again, stop and check if you're not doing that. Have a word with yourself or, you know, start to plan for a future where you do love everything that you do. The second, what was it was surprising, surprising person. I'm this might not be picked up because we sat down on on jazz, but I'm quite tall. I'm six foot sort of two and a half three. Kevin Durant, NBA. He's tall guy. I mean, I don't know how tall he is, but I was, it was neck ache. I mean, I wouldn't, if I'm sick, he must be seven foot. I mean, I could you not, this guy was so tall and it's not often I take a photo. I mean, I just thought my son, George, the photo of the bottom of someone's child from go for the selfie. I don't know. I don't, I don't. But with my son, George, I just knew that he would love it. And it would give him some kudos. So anyway, so, and there genuinely is me and him, kind of, you know, just hit the part of the guy's, you know, that's surprising. And I'll come back here on the ridiculous. I've only been here for a minute. The surprising thing is I got a hug from a guy I've only met once. I went in for the hand and I got a hug. And it's very sweating, bro. Right, the grind bus is going down, Clarees, Alex Jarkin. Thank you very much indeed. Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Thank you.