The Caller

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From sales and accounting to inventory and marketing, all-in-one powerful platform. No messy integrations, no bouncing between tabs, and best of all, no spreadsheets. Stop managing software and start managing your business with one unified system. Try for free today at od.com/vox. That's od.o.com/vox. This episode contains recordings of 911 calls and references to suicide. Please use discretion. How did you and Betsy meet? How did we meet? Well, we actually met at a local gas station where she was working. And I was a regular customer there and we just started making friends, I guess, and eventually we're not on a date. What did you like about her? Well, our bubbly personality and she was just so outgoing and friendly with everyone she ever met. We were always chat and kind of floored around and whatnot. Russ Faria met Betsy Meyer in 1995. On top of working at the gas station, Betsy ran a business DJing parties. She called it party starters. Russ helped her out. He was good with computers. In 2000, Russ and Betsy got married. She was just always a positive person even when she felt bad. So other than when we were alone in private, most people wouldn't know. You know, if she was feeling bad or sad at all. When did you find out about her cancer? That was in 2010, early 2010. We didn't know how bad it was or any of the prognosis as far as what needed to be done and how it was going to be treated. She had to have a full mastectomy and chemo and radiation treatment. And that was quite intensive. After about a year of going in for treatments, once a week, sometimes twice, Betsy and Russ planned to go on a cruise. It looked like Betsy's cancer was gone. And they were calling it a celebration of life. They bought the tickets for November of 2011. But in October, they got news. That's when we found out that the cancer had returned and it was actually in her liver. And the doctor kind of told us at that time that she had about if we were lucky maybe three years. They decided to go on the cruise anyway. How was she doing on the cruise and right after? She was doing quite well, actually. She got to do one of her dreams, which was swim with the dolphins. And when we came home, we were looking forward to Christmas. They spent Christmas with Russ's family and Betsy's father. Betsy stated her mother's apartment outside St. Louis the next night. It was closer to the Cancer Center and she had an appointment for chemo on Tuesday, December 27th. So I was at home by myself and got up and started work like any normal day. I worked from home on the computer and we texted back and forth throughout the day because I had a standing appointment with some friends of mine. And we like to get together and play games on Tuesday nights. And I was trying to ascertain whether or not she needed to ride home afterwards. And at some point or another, she let me know that her friend Pam was going to bring her home, which I struck me as kind of odd. But okay, well, if she wants to bring you home, I guess that's fine. And I'll see you there when I get done with my friends. What is your usual Tuesday night with your friends? What do you do? Well, we used to play some role-playing games similar to D&D. However, those type of games, if you have a group of, say, four or five people that play, everybody has to be present. And that particular night, we had one friend that had to work. And so we sat around and watched a couple of movies, actually the second movie was kind of boring and so everybody decided to split. Russ and Betsy had talked on the phone around 5 p.m. Russ got to his friend's house around 6 and left around 9. On the way home, he remembers who was hungry and stopped at Arby's. He says when he got to the house, he called Betsy's name, but didn't hear anything. I came around the corner and that's when I saw her on the floor. What, tell me what you saw? Well, I saw her laying in a pool of blood initially. And when I went down to the floor, I realized that there was a knife in her neck. Russ called 911 and told the dispatcher, "My wife killed herself. She's on the floor." I jumped to conclusions because she had gone through depression before and actually was on medication for depression and whatnot. The 911 dispatcher told Russ someone would be on the way and started asking questions. She wanted to know what kind of medication she had and was directing me to try and find those and read the labels afterwards so she could get a list of those things. What were you thinking about? I mean, do you remember? I think I was in one state or another of mental shock for quite a while. And so I was just kind of on automatic mode trying to follow instructions and help until somebody actually physically showed up. It took police about 10 minutes to arrive. They took me outside and I guess they were performing their initial investigation inside and eventually they came out and asked me if I could come down to the station. Which I did and then they started questioning me about all the events of the day who she was with, who brought her home. If she had any enemies or I guess that lasted overnight questioning and sometime the next day they decided they'd asked me if I could go take a lie detector test. After the test, an officer told him that he'd failed it. What were they saying exactly that you had done to Betsy? They said that I stabbed her over 50 times. And did they say why you had done that? They said that evidently I had found a change of beneficiary on some insurance and so I got angry and emotional and killed her for the money. Four days before she died, Betsy had removed Russ as the beneficiary on her life insurance policy. On January 4th, Russ was charged with first degree murder. He was put in jail and his trial began almost two years later in November 2013. The prosecutor, Leah Cheney, argued that Russ had killed Betsy soon after he got home, then showered, then called 911. Leah Cheney played the recording of Russ's call for the jury. It was the first time he'd heard it. Was it like hearing it plead back? It was quite emotional. I brought back all of the feelings and everything that I was going through at the time. Leah Cheney called the 911 supervisor to testify. And what did the 911 supervisor say in their testimony? She tried to say that it sounded like I was acting it out. She hadn't answered Russ's call, but she listened to the recording. She said that Russ seemed hysterical until he was answering a question, "And then it would go back to hysteria again." Lincoln, county 911. What is the location of your emergency? Okay, ma'am. Hello. Yes, I need to take a couple of deep breaths so I can see what's going on. What is the address where you need to scum? Okay, what is the telephone number? Okay, who am I speaking with? Russell, what's going on there? I just got home from a rental. And am I right? My wife told herself. Okay, Russell, I need you to calm down, honey, okay? I need you to calm down, take a couple of deep breaths. We're going to get somebody on the way there, okay? Russell, how long were you gone today? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I just got back. But she was out of my arms and her boyfriend was bringing her home, so I have no idea. I don't know what time she got home. - Has she been depressed lately? (crying) She got, she got, she got, she got, she got, she got, she got. - She has, but she doesn't have cancer. - Russell, do you think that she's beyond health right now? - Oh, what is it? Is it? Is it? - Okay. Oh. - Russell, I have a couple officers that are out there right now. Can you do me a favor and open your front door? - Oh, yeah, yeah. Okay. - Okay, well they're lucky, honey. I'm going to go ahead and hang up and we're going to try to call your mom, okay? - Okay. - All right. - Okay. - Bye-bye. - One of the first officers to get to Russ and Betsy's house said it seemed like Russ was panicking, having difficulty talking and breathing. But when the officer tried to distract him, talking about where they grew up in the same neighborhood, Russ spoke normally and sometimes laughed. Police noted that when they left Russ alone, his emotions seemed, quote, "over the top." The trial lasted four days and Russ Faria was convicted of first-degree murder and sentenced to life in prison without parole. I'm Phoebe Judge. This is criminal. We'll be right back. To listen without ads, join Criminal Plus. - Running a business shouldn't feel like surviving a software group project, one after accounting, another for inventory, another for sales, and somehow, none of them talk to each other. That's where Oto comes in, an all-in-one business management software that brings every part of your business together, from sales and accounting to inventory and marketing, all-in-one powerful platform, no messy integrations, no bouncing between tabs, and best of all, no spreadsheets. Try for free today at odu.com/box. That's odlo.com/box. - Support for this show comes from Harvey AI. The future of law is a genetic, not just tools that assist, but AI agents that navigate complex matters. That's why Harvey created agents that can do the work from end to end. They build a plan, pull from secure data sources, run sub-agents in parallel, and draft the work product ready for your review. So you delegate the work and on the judgment. Trusted by more than 60% of the AMLA 100 and leading Fortune 500 legal teams, Harvey is the AI operating system designed specifically for legal work. Harvey AI tailored for law. Learn more at Harvey.AI. In June of 2008, the FBI published volume 77 issue number six of their monthly bulletin. - It's sort of this newsletter that sent directly to police departments. I think it has something like a readership of 200,000. - Journalist Brett Murphy. The bulletin featured an article with the title 9-1-1 homicide calls and statement analysis is the caller, the killer. The article said that 9-1-1 calls to report a death contain, quote, "uncontaminated clues." And that specific features of a call can help identify whether a caller is innocent or guilty. - Certain turns of phrase, different omissions, verbal cues, became indicators of guilty, guilty indicators of someone. - Calls 9-1-1 and they say one of these things or they don't say one of these things. Then means that it's more likely that they are guilty of the crime that they are calling to report. - Today Brett is a reporter for ProPublica, but in 2021, he was working for USA Today on a series of stories about whistleblowers in police departments. - I was on the road somewhere outside Shreveport, Louisiana, and I met with a woman who was telling me all about this really upsetting case. - The woman's mother had died. Police said it looked like suicide, but the woman believed it was a murder by her stepfather. - And she kept mentioning this new thing called 9-1-1 call analysis and saying her stepfather had called police and he had failed with this analysis that is called a cop scale. - The 9-1-1 cop scale and abbreviation for considering offender probability in statements appeared on page 27 of the FBI Bulletin. It was the title of a one-page worksheet with a list of checkboxes, organized in two columns, labeled innocent callers and guilty callers. The article was written by an FBI agent named Susan Adams and an Ohio deputy police chief, a man named Tracy Harpster. Susan and Tracy met in 2004 at the FBI Academy in Virginia. Tracy was there for a 10-week training and Susan was there to lecture. She had written a dissertation a few years earlier on studying, quote, "linguistic and structural features" of written statements to predict whether someone was telling the truth. Soon after the training, Tracy Harpster started a master's program in criminal justice. He asked Susan Adams to help with this thesis. - They collected these 9-1-1 calls that included 50 people who were later convicted of some sort of crime and 50 people who were not. - Together they analyzed the 100 calls looking for patterns. In the summary of their findings in the FBI bulletin, they wrote that guilty callers tended to give, quote, "rambling information." Another indicator was insulting or blaming the victim or asking for help for themselves and not the person who died. Did police and prosecutors immediately seem interested in this research? - Oh yeah, people really loved it. It was originally just what researchers call an exploratory analysis, meaning there's a lot more research needed to see if it's valid and sound and should be applied in real-world situations. But this kind of just took off right from that exploratory analysis. - After the bulletin came out, a sheriff's sergeant in Colorado asked Tracy and Susan to help with the case she was working on. She sent a recording of a woman calling 9-1-1 saying her husband had died. They replied with a report. They'd found one indicator of innocence and 12 indicators of guilt. - Things like saying the word blood instead of saying bleeding. - They wrote, quote, "Colors who chose to comment on the presence of blood at the scene rather than on the condition of the victim were more likely to be guilty. The focus appears to be on the bloody scene rather than on her bleeding husband." They also wrote that the woman had, quote, "no sense of urgency and was too patient." - Saying things like, "I'm sorry and thank you. That's what they would call being inappropriately polite. If you interrupt yourself, if your answers are too short, too long, saying somebody, you know, that means there's a lack of commitment." Harpster and Adam said that witnesses to a crime should be able to report their observations clearly. - They wrote that the woman, quote, "hasitated to commit to her narrative." They noted that she said, "God, who would do this?" Which they found to be, quote, "acurious and unexpected question." Investigators kept asking Tracy Harpster for help and he started teaching classes. He kept listening to more calls and wrote a book about it and hit the road, training, police departments, prosecutors, corners, 911 dispatchers on this system that he developed. In 2014, police and husband Colorado were investigating the death of a woman named Nancy Fister. Nancy's friend, Kathy Carpenter, had called 911. She said she hadn't heard from Nancy for a few days and she'd gone looking for her. She told the dispatcher she found Nancy dead in her closet. And the local police asked the Colorado Bureau of Investigation to help find who did it. And then there was an agent at CBI who was one of Harpster's students. He stepped in to help analyze the phone call. 911, what is the address of the emergency? What is the address of the emergency? Is that a health business or apartment? It's a house, it can't be fit into the house. Ma'am, tell me exactly what happened. Ma'am, my bed hadn't. I don't live in the closet. [BLANK_AUDIO] My friend came back for most children of 66 years and he had some people living there and he really pissed him off. And he made threats to them about owing money and I don't know what it is. I couldn't find her, she didn't call any people, but the dog has been in the house and she hasn't been around. So I went up there to get the dog and I was looking for her. I need you to tell me exactly what happened. I can't have my friend in your closet. In your closet. Yes. Okay, stay on the line with me, we're going to send help that way. A Colorado Bureau of Investigation agent wrote a report analyzing Kathy Carpenter's call. He noted that Carpenter had said, "Help me," she repeatedly interrupted herself. She didn't immediately answer when the dispatcher asked for the address. She provided extraneous information about Feister's dog. While the phone was ringing, Kathy repeated, "Oh my god, oh my god," which the agent found suspicious. Writing, "The caller gives repetitive phrases even before the dispatcher answers the call." He wrote, "The caller's very first statement is to request help for herself." And that, "The caller repeated her friend was dead and full of blood." He also wrote, "Innocent callers typically minimize the injury and rarely comment about the amount of blood unless the victim is currently bleeding." In total, the agent found 39 guilty indicators and zero indicators of innocence. Eight days after he sent the report, police arrested Kathy Carpenter. She was in jail for three months before someone else confessed to the murder. It was one of Nancy's tenants, the ones Kathy talked about when she called 911. This totally upended her life. She told me, "She lost her job, lost her home, car was reposed, diagnosed with PTSD, had to move in with her mother across the state, people still call their murderer." And she was just trying to live the rest of her life in solitude. We'll be right back. Support for the show comes from Delta Airlines. Every athlete at the top of her game knows that greatness isn't just a destination. It's a grueling lifelong journey. It's built on early mornings, silent sacrifices, and an unwavering drive to outclimb the achievements of yesterday. That is the journey of a WNBA athlete. And Delta is there every step of the way. Delta is proud to host these competitors, providing charter flights for every WNBA team, to elevate their travel experience and champion equity on every leg of their trip. Keep climbing with Delta Airlines, the official airline of the WNBA. Are you a pet owner? Every six seconds. A pet owner in the US gets hit with a vet bill over a thousand dollars. Always an unwelcome surprise. That's where Fetch comes in. Fetch is the most complete pet insurance for dogs and cats. According to ConsumerAdvocate.org, you get paid back up to 90% of vet bills at any vet in the US and Canada, with claims paid back in as little as two days. Go to fetchpat.com/save right now for your free quotes. That's fetchpat.com/save. The year after police dropped charges against Kathy Carpenter, Russ Furrier was granted a new trial in Missouri. He'd been in prison for two years. After a jury ruled, he murdered his wife Betsy. His lawyer had presented new evidence about another potential suspect, Betsy's friend Pam Hopp, the woman who had given her a ride that day. In the new trial, Russ's lawyer called the 911 operator who answered his call to testify. In her opinion, young, I wasn't play acting at all. A TV station in St. Louis broadcast an interview with the operator Tammy Vaughn. You can't fake that. You can't fake that emotion. In my personal opinion, you can't. Vaughn says 911 operators are expected to get hysterical callers to answer questions. It's a redirection. It's a technique that communicators use to try to redirect, calm them down, ask them the question. And then whenever they have to focus back on the victim or the patient, then they do what's called a re-freak. The prosecutor, Leah Cheney, called the 911 supervisor from the first trial to testify again. This time, the supervisor said that she'd learned to evaluate calls like Russ's from Tracy Harpster's class. And she was saying all the reasons that she thought for real was guilty based on his word choice and demeanor during the 911 call. Brett Murphy. But the judge in the second trial wouldn't let the supervisor's testimony in his evidence. The new verdict was announced on a Friday. I was completely free from not guilty on all accounts and completely exonerated. Leah Cheney didn't charge anyone else with Betsy's murder, but Russ's lawyer asked the US attorney's office to review the case. He wanted someone to look more closely at Pam Hoppe. When Betsy removed Russ as the beneficiary on her life insurance, she had replaced him with Pam. Pam and Betsy had met his co-workers at state farm. Betsy's sister said Pam was instructed to use the life insurance to support Betsy's daughters from a previous relationship, which she had not been doing. What did you think of her? I thought she was a little weird, but there's a lot of people like that in this world and I really certainly didn't suspect her of being somebody that was malicious at all. In 2016, Pam Hoppe was arrested and charged with killing a man named Lewis Gumpenberger. She was sentenced to life in prison without parole. Then, in 2021, she was charged with Betsy's murder. There hasn't been a trial yet. It is suspected and Pam is alleged to have done that. She will be facing trial in January of 2028 for said murder. Since Russ was released, he's opened a motorcycle shop and gotten married. He assessed strange how many people have heard his 911 call. It's been played on date line six times now and I don't know how many times on local news and that's one of the things that people that I meet and that recognize me come up and they're just very emotional about having listened to that call. The reporter Brett Murphy was looking into 911 call analysis. He found emails Leah Cheney and Tracy Harpster had written each other after Russ was exonerated. Harpster was looking for marketing material and a chapter in his upcoming book. He wrote to the prosecutor saying, "Can you give me an endorsement, cite this case where you used it." He says in his email, "We don't have to say it was overturned. Just hook me up and make it sing." As I was working on this story, the months I was working on this, I listened to dozens, if not hundreds of 911 calls. Can you tell any difference from someone who is ultimately guilty as opposed to someone who someone claimed was guilty? No, I can't. To me, it always seemed like when I first heard about it when I was in Louisiana, I thought it seemed far-fetched but I don't know. I wanted to look into it, keep an open mind. I thought I might come away with some ability to predict one way or another but I was never able. I mean, there would be people who have the flattest of affects, other people who seemed absolutely heartbroken and distraught and in shock and trying to divine one way or another was reading teetlies. If I were to call 911, I think the last thing on my mind would be that someone potentially was going to listen to that call and look at me as a suspect. Depending on what words I chose to use. This was another concern of law enforcement and prosecutors, I talked to, there would be a chilling effect, right? People, if they were worried that their word choice might implicate them, that they might not want to call 911. And don't, like, don't get me wrong, the 911 calls are crucially important to a homicide investigator. It's kind of like the first record starts the timeline. You can check what someone said versus facts that come up later. It's a critical piece of evidence for, like, you know, for a number of reasons. But to use it in this way is deeply concerning to the people I spoke with who live and work in this world. There's a one 911 call in Ohio, there was a couple of parents whaling on the phone. They were holding their child who had died, Harpster listened to the call, and he wrote back to the police officer who sent it to him, he said call me, dot, dot, dot, dirty, like the parents were dirty and he didn't like their 911 call. The mother who was on the phone in that case was never charged, right? So there's like these cases keep appearing in my research where it was applied that the 911 call analysis was applied in some way, but it didn't work. The person was acquitted or never charged, and this never seemed to be evidence that maybe there was something wrong with the thing, but on the flip side, anytime 911 call analysis was used and that person was later charged or convicted, that was evidence that it worked. Did you ever get a chance to interview him? Yeah, so I talked to him once on the phone. It was one kind of short conversation I raised, you know, a couple of questions and concerns from some folks I had been talking to at that early stage. I could not get back in touch with him. Brett says he sent him emails and texts for months. He'd asked Tracy Harpster if he could sit in on one of his classes. He said no, it was only for law enforcement. I asked him, I was like, why can't I sit in, but he's very protective of it. He told me that, you know, other people would use it for nefarious ends. People would start gaming their 911 calls. So he interviewed a former student of Tracy's and asked what it was like. There's a projector screen up top is the collar, the killer and bold red font kind of looks like dripping blood and he claims that one in three people who call 911 to report a death are actually murderers. I never found any record to support that figure. We contacted Tracy Harpster for this story, and he sent a response which includes the following. Quote, we are not aware of any individual who's been arrested or prosecuted for murder solely based on a 911 call. The 911 call is but one piece of evidence that should be closely examined, just like any other. I think it's important to say that from what I can tell in his, what he tells students and what people have, who have attended the class told me is that he really believes in this. He really thinks that he is helping these cases and bringing murderers to justice and it's a kind of invaluable instrument for police and prosecutors to kind of help them solve otherwise potentially unsolvable cases. So I never got the sense that he was operating in bad faith in any way or thought he was selling snake oil or anything, sort of his life's work. Brett spoke with an FBI behavioral scientist who had worked with Tracy and Susan on the research. He told me I just don't see that the work we did rises to the level of success by the scientific community. There's no definitive answer as to whether this is useful and everyone that I know of has kind of failed to reproduce most of his findings which has kind of in their minds sort of invalidated the research quite a bit. Researchers at universities and the FBI have tried and failed to find evidence that the 911 cop scale method can reliably identify guilty callers. But in 2022, when Brett was investigating some police and prosecutors still seem to be using it. There's not really like a governing body that's supposed to be vetting science or purported science that's getting adopted in the courtroom and works a lot on precedent. You know if it makes its way into one case then a attorney can cite that case which is sort of the opposite of how science works. Science changes based on new information all the time but conversely the court system works on precedent. So what's supposed to be happening is that there's supposed to be something like a standard applied. It's called the Dobbert standard or the Fry standard in which judges are supposed to evaluate whether it stands up to scrutiny. The Dobbert standard from a 1993 Supreme Court case involving a pharmaceutical company says that judges should look at an expert's methods to determine whether to allow them to testify, not just their credentials. There's all sorts of benchmarks it's supposed to hit as there been other studies that replicate the findings. Pretty much is it sound. Pet reported that in 2016 the Missouri prosecutor, Leah Cheney, wrote an email to Tracy Harpster, quote, "Of course the sign of research is not recognized as a science in our state." She said she was finding ways to use 911 call analysis in court anyway, quote, "getting creative without calling it science." Often prosecutors where they would have a detective or a dispatcher testify, Harpster himself wouldn't. And unless a defense attorney catches that this is, "Hey, that's not lay testimony." That actually sounds like scientific or fact testimony. I want to challenge that for a Dobbert hearing or something like that. If an objection like that isn't raised, then it might slip right through and get right in front of a jury. Pet Murphy says sometimes judges would let 911 call analysis in his evidence because a state training board had certified Tracy Harpster's class. And I would go to those state training boards and they said, "Well, we're not actually vetting the curriculum." In one case in 2014 in Michigan, a 16-year-old named Riley Spitler had called 911 and said that he'd shot his older brother while playing with a gun. The police and prosecutors said he did it on purpose. Spitler always maintained that it was an accident and the difference, of course, is, you know, manslaughter and murder. A detective on the case had taken Tracy Harpster's class. I saw the checklist that he filled out, the detective filled out, and I listened to the call. Spitler seems to me, kind of, to be in shock, he saw being an hysterical, and he told dispatchers that he shot his brother. He said it was an accident, said twice it was an accident. This was extraneous information. By saying the shooting was accidental, his indicator of guilt, quote, "because the call should be about help, not about justifying actions." On another point, Riley says, his life is over, oh my god, my life is over, saying something like my life is over, shows that Riley was too focused on himself and not his brother. That's what the detective said. It was very me focused. And finally, Riley said, I think I killed him. And this is before he starts kind of breaking down, and he says, oh my god, please no. Multiple times in that call, Riley said, he thought his brother was dead. The detective wrote that this is a guilty indicator because he was accepting his brother's death. I mean, I listen to this 911 call also, and I don't understand, I mean, it's confusing to know how you could even look for patterns and anything, because Riley is, he's so upset that you can barely understand what he's saying. Yeah. He was, I mean, just to put into some perspective, Riley was having so much trouble thinking in this moment, he couldn't figure out how to open his own front door to his house from the inside, and he punched his hand through the glass door to open the door. And this is I think sort of at, it's at the heart of this 911 call analysis where there's just not enough known about how people speak during a moment of trauma or shock. A lot of people don't even recognize themselves, they have no memory of saying that thing that they said on a 911 call, they have no memory of doing certain things that they were doing during the 911 call, you know, you are, you are kind of outside of yourself, and it's one thing to have a hunch about someone because you think they, and police do this all the time, right? I think they're, they're acting odd, but to lend the air of science and apply these indicators of guilt, that takes it to this like other level in which it starts becoming something really dangerous. Riley Spitler appealed his case on the basis of police, prosecutor, and judgements conduct, and argued that the statement analysis used against him was, quote, "junkscience." He won. He was resentanced for manslaughter and released from prison in 2020, he was 21. Criminal is created by Lauren Spore and me. Nadia Wilson is our senior producer. Katie Bishop is our supervising producer. Our producers are Susanna Robertson, Jackie Cigico, Lily Clark, and Lena Cilicin. This episode was fact checked by Katie Cedarborg. Our show is mixed and engineered by Veronica Seminetti. You can find a link to Brett Murphy's reporting about 9-on-1 call analysis for ProPublica on our website. This isn't the first time we've had a ProPublica journalist on criminal to talk about their investigative reporting, often their stories stand out to us. And they just started a new podcast last month. The show is called Paper Trail. If you're a fan of criminal, there's a good chance you'll like it. The first episode is a story about generic medications and things going wrong at the factories they come from. And they have other episodes out and coming up about health insurance denials, national security, the courts, and more. You can listen to Paper Trail wherever you get your podcasts. Julian Alexander makes original illustrations for each episode of Criminal. You can see them at ThisIsCriminal.com and you can sign up for a newsletter at ThisIsCriminal.com/newsletter. We hope you'll consider supporting our work by joining our membership program, Criminal Plus. You can listen to Criminal This Is Love and Febary's Mystery without any ads. Plus, you'll get bonus episodes. These are special episodes with me and Criminal Co-Creator Lauren Spore talking about everything from how we make our episodes to the crime stories that caught our attention that week to things we've been enjoying lately. To learn more, go to patreon.com/criminal. We're on Facebook at ThisIsCriminal, an Instagram and TikTok at Criminal_Potcast. We're also on YouTube at youtube.com/criminalpodcast. All is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Discover more great shows at podcast.voxmedia.com. I'm Phoebe Judge. This is Criminal. And for accounting, another for inventory, another for sales, and somehow, none of them talk to each other. That's where Odo comes in. And all in one business management software that brings every part of your business together. From sales and accounting to inventory and marketing, all in one powerful platform. Try for free today at odu.com/vox. [0-0-0.com/vox]