The BYU Bandit: Part 1

The following program contains names, places, and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following program is provided for entertainment purposes only, and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances. If you or a loved one are involved in an abusive relationship, please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233 for support. Happy Dating Detectives Monday! It's actually Monday this time. Yes, last week we had a snafu, and now we're back. And thank you for understanding, and we love all of you and all of our guests, and we have quite a story this week and next week, because guess what? It's a story. It's a story. It's a story. It's a two-parter. It's a two-parter, baby. I'm really impressed with our audience. You guys know how grateful we are for you, and we just appreciate all of your support for the show and our Patreoners and everybody who comes to the live shows. That's amazing. But also the way you support it, you showed support to the guest who decided not to share her story. I just want to say thank you for that, because sometimes it puts a kink in our plans, and then things don't go the way it's supposed to. But just to support her, knowing that maybe she just wasn't ready. And I just wanted to say thank you. All of you guys sent a lot of really nice messages supporting her. So thank you. Yes. And obviously, this is a show, but the goal for everybody, Mackenzie and me and Molly and everyone behind the scenes, is always just to amplify your voices. So that's what it's about. And I also want to thank you for spreading the word, because our guest today, Courtney, posted about her story, and people in the comments said, you got to go on The Dating Detective. So thank you for doing that, because this is definitely an important story. It's a queer story, definite trigger warnings. There's religious trauma and some talk of suicide and physical abuse, but it's also a queer story and talks a lot about queerness in the way that it works into her early relationships. And I, unfortunately, think it will resonate with a lot of people. Yeah. And I am very interested to hear what people think, especially if they've grown up in the church or in any kind of religion that has really, you know, kept them small. I think so many people are going to relate to this for sure. Yeah. And we also, like, disclaimer, love everybody. If you don't hurt people, we don't, we're not mad about it. So if you're religious and it's not hurting anybody, we're not here to just, like, blanket statement, criticize the Mormon church, but it's her experience. We're not trying to villainize an entire group of people. Everybody's different, but a lot of people have this experience, and it's important we talk about it. Absolutely. Should we get into it? Let's meet our guest. Yeah. Let's get into it. Courtney, thank you so much for being here. We're so glad that you're here and that you're allowing us to be an ear and a platform for you. Will you please share your story with us? Yes, of course. Thank you for having me. Oh my gosh, of course. So I, I'll start with me. I grew up very, very, very religious. I grew up in the Mormon church, which seems to be a pretty popular topic these days. There are a lot of people who are very religious. There are a lot of people, especially women with stories about the church. I'm 31 now. So in the 2010s, when I was a teenager, the church was still very unknown. A lot of kids in my school would call me Amish because they didn't know the difference. So a lot of people just didn't know about it in the way that they do now. So I was, I was seen as a little more of an outsider, but I grew up in North Carolina where the church is not super big and I'm also an only child. So the church was my only way of socializing with people. And every summer I was doing girls camp and all of that. So that was my entire community. That was a part of my entire life. So I ended up going on a mission for the church and I went to Argentina for 18 months. So whenever I came back, I had already done a year in school in North Carolina. And so I just went back to the same school and I started a job at Chipotle and I met a girl and it was almost instantaneous that I knew. I knew that I liked her in more than a friend way. Like I was very attracted to her. How did that feel for your little Mormon inner child? Oh, it really threw a wrench in my Mormon plans. I was like, oh no, this is not like, it's good, but it's not good. I knew I was in for, for something. So it was very easy in the beginning. We just started, this is someone different, by the way. This is just my very first girlfriend that I had. We just started seeing each other every single day. We were working together and we fell very easily into, into each other's lives. But I started to panic because of the way that I grew up. And I felt like I was going to have to choose between God or loving this girl. And that was really hard. So naturally I didn't communicate with her at all. And I just decided let's move across the country and go to BYU, Idaho. Brigham Young University. Yes. It's like a very Mormon university. And you can go there for cheap. Because tithing from the church members provides a subsidized education for you. So it was only about five grand a semester and I got a lot of Pell grants. So it was basically free. If you're a member. Nice. Okay. And these are, this is legit accredited colleges. Yeah. Yes. And no. Yeah. I mean, they are like, they're definitely are, but I know that there's a lot of very conservative rules about like drinking. And I guess a lot of colleges have like. campuses but I feel like it's more than that right it's like very baked into the culture well and like we'll get into later there is an honor code there as well so people can turn you in for breaking any of the school's rules which are based around being Mormon so drinking smoking premarital sex any of that your roommate could turn you in or just someone who sees something can turn you in it's very surveillance statey you know like teaching you to like tell on your neighbor kind of thing yeah and that feels like telling oh man my college roommate they know everything yeah well that's a scary thing at your age too at 18 I feel like you just really are like living in this eggshell fear kind of environment yeah I also I was 21 at the time actually because you can go on a mission when you're 19 so whenever I had gotten back it was pretty quick like it was a quick turnaround of me starting to date this girl and then getting accepted to BYU Idaho and I was just panicking so I was like I need to get in there as soon as I can so you did date this girl you weren't like besties okay so you guys know we were like fully in a relationship and whatnot okay yes I had only come out to a few people in my life at that point but I was like I don't know how far we can ride this you know so I moved to school it makes me sad too thinking back to it but it was all part of my journey and I see now that everything worked out the way it needed to I guess fun fact when I was in college uh four score and seven years ago I thought credit cards were magical money and then I would just like swipe swipe swipe because we didn't have tap back then but anyways I would swipe and then I'd get the bill and be like uh whoopsie and then I'd be like I can't pay it what am I gonna do and then it just went to my credit and my credit was shot for the longest time now there are more things available to us that help us rewrite the story of our finances just like monarch 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feel like I've just had friends who are you know they're bodies are fluctuating or they have big boobs and they can't find bras that fit them well and that are comfortable or the ones that they're made for them are just like grandma styles and this has such a wide range of styles it's comfortable for every size and it has a wide color range and it's just like like really comfortable like all of the clothes too i'm going on a flight later and i will be wearing my like like it's called the what is it cotton jersey straight leg pant oh comfy i love those shop skims cotton and all our favorite pieces at skims.com after you place your order be sure to let them know that we sent you just select podcast in the survey and select our show in the drop down menu that follows once i moved to byu idaho i was attending this college and my plan at the time was i'm gonna find a man some man that i can deal with that's mormon and i can just continue on my path and not have to worry about any of this friction that i'm going to have to deal with and i can just continue on my path and not have to worry about experiencing and i went through the whole repentance process with my bishop at church and he told me that yeah it's basically just psychological torture and shame yeah will you tell i'm i was raised jewish so tell me what that entails if you don't mind yeah absolutely there's so much mormonism is so complex the repentance process you go to your bishop who would be like a preacher or the leader of the congregation in your church and it's always a man and you tell them your sins it's kind of like catholic confessional except for they give you a prescription basically after of like a spiritual prescription of things to do to get back into good graces with god and usually with sexual sins so homosexuality is categorized under a sexual sin regardless of if there is sexual contact so there's a sacrament that goes around every sunday with the bread and water and it's supposed to be a sacrament to represent the body and blood of christ you can't take that for a while so some bishops will tell you that for a whole year you can't take the sacrament so everybody in the congregation's nosy like everybody sees what's going on and when you pass it people are like oh like she did something bad you know what i mean it's kind of like a public shame oh my gosh so that's one of them and then there's a temple that you go to so there's like regular everyday church and then there's a temple those are like the big beautiful buildings that there's a ton of them in utah they've got them sprinkled throughout the states but that's where you go to do like i guess more complex work within the mormon church so i got my what's called your endowment before you go on your mission and that's when you get a special underwear people call it and you go through all the ceremonies but you can't go in there for a whole year as well so you get a card this sounds so wild you get a card that has a barcode on the back of your membership card and you scan it when you go into the temple and if your bishop has decided that you're not worthy to go to the temple they can deactivate it so you can't get in they design it so that you are so you're kind of like a self-driving car by the time that you're 21 is how i view it in my head because the shame and guilt is already built in up here and like the god that they teach you about heavenly father is already up here judging you all the time so by the time you're 21 you're like oh my god i'm gonna be like oh my god i'm gonna be like oh my god i'm gonna be like oh my god i'm gonna be like oh my god i'm gonna be like oh my god i'm gonna be i went to college it was like yes i was meeting with my bishop and we were going through this repentance process but the voice in my head was the one causing contention for me it was like you can't be with this woman because you're giving up god and your family and your friends and now my school because you have to be well you don't have to be an active member to go to byu idaho but you still have to follow all the rules and your housing is you have to be in byu approved or you have to get a special exception to live with a family member that's the only time that you don't have to live in byu housing when you go to school there and they do that so that if you break the honor code and you get kicked out this happened to one of my friends you lose your housing and then you don't get a refund at all for your semester so a lot is riding on you being worthy to go there so this is where we're at you know i'm kind of back and forth with this girl i'm going through the repentance process i'm feeling very torn okay we're torn between god and dating a woman classic so another thing byu does is they pair your apartment if you well you're going to live with all women if you go to byu so they pair your female apartment with a male apartment in the same complex and you guys are supposed to meet up once a week to do an activity together and this is to encourage you to date people and we were paired with an entirely gay apartment all gay men like flame what really i hate to laugh it's not funny because it's like really messed up but it's no but it was funny we joked that god put us together so god loves the gay yeah you were meant to find each other yeah because i mean i'm already doing this thing with this girl i'm like struggling with my sexuality struggling with same-sex attraction is what they call it and then my roommates i had talked to them at the time they were all also questioning their sexuality and we all just kind of had big conversations about it so whenever we got paired with the gay apartment with the guys we were like okay let's make something happen here and so when they came over for our activity at our apartment it was around june and i just went so do you guys have any plans for for pride next month or just to kind of like fish and were they all just like oh my god they were like are we safe here looking at each other yeah well you have to play that game at byu because you never know where your ops are and so one of them was like yeah we're going to salt lake city pride what are you guys doing and so that opened the door for all of us to be like okay you guys are cool we're cool let's hang out let's be friends and then they tell me about a queer group at byu idaho but it's not affiliated with the school it's just a group of queer students and they're like oh my god we're students and non-students who get together every week so i'm like there are more of you here this is crazy lead me to your people like take me there you know so i start going to a couple of meetings with my roommates and the president of this club is the one that is well i don't want to call her the star of the show but no she's the villain yes so she's president at the time that i joined this club and she is also president of underground queer byu club which is like badass yeah unfortunately it was at the time that was the poll though you know it's somebody that has some power some influence and they're kind of ruffling some feathers a little bit so you're like okay i'm a little inspired by that um but you said engaged she was engaged to someone yes so as i enter this club with my roommates we started hanging out with one of the members from this queer group who told me about the president and me and the president had not spoken directly yet so my roommates and i had gone to a couple of these meetings and the format would be we'd meet up at i think it was like some kind of shelter maybe there was some building in town that we would meet up in it was like a that let us meet their after hours and we would have an informative queer night so we would do queer trivia it was really really fun and then the next week we would do alternating weeks the next week somebody would be in charge of an activity so it was kind of mormon coded still yeah it was still very wholesome i kind of assumed you guys were just partying no that was after hours okay it's still very like communal educational that's sweet yes and the president also hosted parties about sex sexual awareness too and had somebody come talk about like condoms and toys and they did hiv testing one time so it was very you know helpful like it seemed really cool so yes whenever i started joining this group there was one person that i was talking to they were telling me about the president like what the deal was with everyone and i was on a hike with this person and they told me that the president had said she was she was worried i was coming to take her through the throne that was a direct quote i had not had a conversation with this girl yet but i was like take your throne like are we in middle school on the playground what is what does that mean is this game of thrones are you the queen of england apparently so like i mean thank you yeah she really thought you had it in you i guess so i think something was like threatened by me maybe i genuinely do not know we had never really chatted and so that was my first introduction to her and my first impression of her was that she seemed like she had her shit together you know she's the leader of this group like i said she was hosting these parties and these weekly events were really fun and that she was engaged uh so i was like okay she's an adult like you know she's doing her thing so i had actually reached out to her first i had gotten her number from that person that I went on the hike with because I had heard some other things and I was like Like, hey, I've been involved in some drama before. I don't want us to miscommunicate with each other. Let's just hang out because I'd really love to talk to you and get to know you. I don't want any bad feelings, basically, was the idea. Nice. That was the beginning of a very long journey. That was the beginning of bad feelings. That's what I get for communicating. No good deed. No good deed. Mackenzie, you and I have talked about getting into strength training more recently. Oh, yeah. Do you feel confident and comfortable in the gym? I want to go to the gym and work out, but I think the reason I don't is because my ADHD brain is like, what exercise do I do next? I have no idea where to go, and I'm like, how many do I do? Is this the right form? And then I question myself, and then I'm exhausted. I don't know what to do, so then I don't feel confident about my workout. But that's why I'm grateful for ladder. I'm so with you. 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Will you tell us a little more, or maybe it comes up in a little bit, like, what did she look like? What was your first impression when you first saw her? So she was very mask-presenting, which I found very attractive. So she was very masculine-presenting, meaning she had shorter hair. She dressed in kind of a skater boy kind of style, like the Vans and oversized T-shirts. She was giving, like, cool gay girl who was very sure of herself. And that really appealed to me because I was still figuring my sexuality out. And I wanted to be that sure. So I was like, maybe I could, you know, learn something from her or siphon some of that confidence. So I text her and I meet up with her at her apartment. And we just kind of were getting to know each other. And I had told her about the girl that I was going back and forth with because she seemed like somebody I could talk to about that and maybe had some good advice for me on how to survive in that town with a girlfriend that was long distance and figuring out my relationship with God. So I opened up to her about that. And she revealed to me that her and her fiance were very off and on and kind of toxic. Yeah. Oh, kind of hard to be off and on when you're engaged. Yeah. Right? I was just, I was like, aren't they? Yeah. That feels pretty on. Yeah. I think they were engaged three separate times. They broke it off officially that many times. It's been a while, but I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty sure three is the number. It was significant. It was more than one. And they would have these big fights because both of them. So the president's name is Riley. And then Taylor is the fiance. I was like, we need to give her a name because you can't just keep being like, so the president and I. The president. I was like, who is this? Okay, great. Riley. And their fiance is who? Taylor. Taylor. So Riley and Taylor were quite toxic together. And from what I knew about Taylor, Taylor was, they both, played into each other's toxicity. I'll say that they were both very kind of toxic in the same direction at this time. They would pick fights with each other and they would make them kind of public. So we're all hanging out with this gay group and they would be going through something and you could tell. And then Taylor wouldn't come to a lot of the meetings. So her and Riley were together when I met them, but then Riley revealed to me that they were not super secure in the way that I had, originally assumed. And at that point we had done a capture the flag game activity. And I think they were still technically engaged at this point, but I do remember being put in jail in the game and Riley almost intentionally got put in jail so that they would be with me in there. And the fiance is just kind of running around like side eyeing us the whole time. So, I feel like I kind of got forced into a situation where I was like, I'm still talking to a girl back home and still figuring my stuff out. I don't want to be put in the middle of your relationship. No. So I might be like used to like stir up some jealousy. Exactly. Yes. So that was kind of the vibe I was getting. And then of course, after we had hung out, I was on an off period with my girlfriend at the time. She was like, we have to promise not to get back together with our exes. Cause I guess that was also an off period for her. And I was like, I won't, if you won't, you know, just as a little joke. So we're kind of both off and on and this little in between place in our relationships, we weren't super close friends. It got. Bromantic. Like it moved up from platonic fairly quickly with her because right after that meeting and the capture the flag moment, Taylor got a job outside of town. So she was about an hour and a half out of town. And Riley and I started hanging out a lot and feelings developed very quickly as they did with the first girl. But I almost felt more into the connection with Riley than I did the first girl. And it felt like something clicked for me. And I was like, Oh, this is how it's supposed to feel. Like maybe I'm feeling this a little more strongly. Like, yeah. Like something will happen. And you'd be like, Oh, this is how it's supposed to feel. This is how, like I thought I was in love. Yeah. But you didn't realize, no, you weren't. No, I very much was not. So, I mean, I, we could definitely call it cheating on my end because I was not very honest and forthcoming about hanging out with this new person and feelings developing so quickly. So I will totally own that. And it was just a really messy time because again, I'm still going to school and still figuring out my relationship with God and the contact between me and Taylor, the fiance was very, very minimal. So we were not friends. We didn't really talk again. She didn't really come to the, the queer events that we had every week. So all I knew about her was what I was being told from Riley. And that's very important. So one thing that Riley really loved to do is take girls on drives at night. And she would take me for drives around the outskirts of Rexburg because it's just desert. Desert everywhere. And there was one night like being with her felt really chaotic, but in a very fun way, she seemed like someone who crazy things just happened to all the time. And she was always on the ride of her life and you wanted to be a part of it. Like she made it seem like, I don't know what every day is going to be. That's so fun. Yes. And now that would terrify, like I would run the other way immediately red flag. Yeah. But at the time I'm like, Excitement, you know, this is all new to me. I want to lean into being gay. I think I'm going to leave the church. So I'm slowly leaning toward making some big changes in my life. When you say she liked to take girls on drives, did you know that at the time that it was plural girls? No. Or was it like a, okay, got it. I did not know that. That is something that will come later, but she definitely had a playbook. So there was one night actually where we went on a drive and we spun off the road a little bit. I guess it was wet and we got stuck in some farmer's crops in the middle of a field. And I had to call my very Mormon friends because they were the only ones with a truck to come get us out. And I remember she turned to me, she was so dramatic. She turned to me and she was like, are you ready for everyone to know about us? And I was like, what does that mean? Wait, had you guys like, you know, had you done anything yet? We had kissed already. So I guess the first time that we kissed, we were just hanging out around people in the group and she pulled me around a corner and kissed me. So it was very private, a very quick moment. And that's when I was like, okay, I need to cut things off with that person back home that I was seeing. I need to cut things off with her. And clearly this girl is ready to move forward with me. So maybe let's see what's there. And so that's why we were going on the drives together and spending so much time. And things really blew up with the girl back home because she had become kind of friends with my roommate. And she was texting all of them because she could sense something was up. So I was feeling pressure from not communicating with her and the guilt. So that kind of made me lean in way more to things with Riley because I'm like, well, if I'm going to act this way, it better be for something, you know? That makes 100% sense. I think everybody just collectively nodded their heads and got it. It seems kind of college canon event. Yes, I fear. It was all just a part of the journey, unfortunately. So yes, we're hanging out. We're going on drives late at night. I'm feeling like we're getting way closer. Within the first six days, she tells me that she loves me. Oh, okay. And in that moment, I remember feeling like I did not feel the same because it had been less than a week. But I did say it back just because, you know, people pleasing and maybe I did. It's so awkward if you don't say it. Yeah, exactly. So I did say it back. I didn't really mean it at the time, but it is what it is. So yeah, I knew that it was moving very, very quickly. But again, I felt like all of these things that were happening, it would make it worth it because we'd be together. You know, I'm hopeful. Sue me. I have a hopeful big heart that wants to love people, you know? Totally. That's most of us. I get that. And also, it feels good when someone tells you they love you, even if it's love bombing. You're like, oh my God, she's obsessed with me. Like, she couldn't even keep it in. Absolutely. Yeah, I'm like, of course you would love me after six days. Like, yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. You have good taste. Exactly. Yes. So the chaos really comes in when Riley gets evicted from her apartment this summer. So all of this is happening over a summer. I want to say it was end of June. July, beginning of August, when all of this is going on, the drives, the kissing, the I love you, it's progressing very quickly. And Riley had a habit of making very snap decisions that were not financially sound as well. So she just adopted two more dogs. She already had a dog. So she has three dogs in an apartment. And it is no exaggeration to say that there was shit and piss everywhere, all over the place. The floor of this apartment. It was cruel, honestly. And it was hard to watch. But I had just met this girl. I'm not her girlfriend. So am I supposed to step in and do wifey things? But you just want to help, you know? So I did help clean her apartment a few times. And I didn't know this until later, but Taylor was also coming back into town and doing laundry for her and cleaning the apartment. And she wasn't telling me, obviously, because we're not together, technically. But there's a lot of flip-flopping throughout this story. And Taylor is still living. Outside of town. But she's coming back every single weekend because she still has friends in town that go to school. And she's using that time to also hang out with Riley. So they're pretty much hanging out every weekend as well while she's starting this new relationship with me. And I'm thinking they've broken things off for good. And they're on good enough terms that this is cool with everyone. Because we were around each other a few times and nothing happened. Like the three of us. We're around each other with the other people from the queer group. And it was chill. So I just assumed, you know. So she gets evicted from her apartment because she fell behind on rent and because she trashed the place. She used to throw knives into the wall, too. Like it was a game she made. She would hand someone a butcher knife when they came into her apartment and they would throw it like above her hallway and try to stick it into the wall. That's not dangerous at all. Yeah. Renting. Capital R renting. There goes your security deposit. That's so funny. But that's just some of the reckless stuff that she would do. And she'd encourage other people to do it. She was crazy. She was fun. She was living really free, you know. And she's not still in school. She's older or she's still in school. So that is actually really important. I'm glad you asked me that. She got expelled from BYU for being gay. That, yeah. I mean, she's pretty obviously gay. It seems like she's not hiding it. Yeah. It's blowing my mind. Yeah. Okay. So by that point, she's evicted and no school. And she didn't have her job by that point. And Taylor had moved out. Taylor did have a job. So no more apartment for her. And during this summer, she tells me that she's staying in a tent at the local park. She has a car as well. Yeah. She tells me she's staying in a tent. Like that's where she's living. And I should also mention with the two other dogs, all of her dogs ended up going to one of our friends. She had to give them away because she obviously couldn't take care of them. Right. So all three of them were given to three separate people in our group because we were like, somebody needs to take these dogs and take care of them. And they're living happy, healthy lives now. Very convenient timing that when her fiance, ex-fiance moved out, all of a sudden she didn't pay rent anymore. Right. Exactly. Seems to be a trend in her life. But I digress. I digress. So she tells me she's living in a tent and also tells me that she's going back and forth between Taylor's new place and Rexburg. I realize now in retrospect that she probably was just staying with Taylor the whole time because I wasn't checking up on anything. I wasn't fact checking because I had no reason in my mind to not trust her at that point. And I was thinking, you know, this girl loves me again, has told me. She loves me. And she's texting me, telling me she loves me. And she's also saying, I'm over at Taylor's, but it's not because I want to be. So something she continues to do throughout our relationship is says that she's manipulated into being with Taylor by Taylor. And she's painting this picture that Taylor is saying some magic words to keep her coming back, even though she really wants to be with me. That's what she's giving me. She's a victim. Yeah. Yeah. Allegedly. If you need new bedding, you have to look at Koyuchi. 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So you can feel good about what you're getting, and you can also feel good when you're going to sleep because they're truly so, so comfortable. So if you need new sheets, visit koyuchi.com slash detectives for 15% off your first purchase of the most comfortable bedding you'll ever own. That's C-O-Y-U-C-H-I dot com slash detectives. Some exclusions apply. She makes it clear that she's actually going to choose Taylor. And this turnaround is within a couple of weeks, mind you. This is not even that much time has passed, still the summer. And she tells me she's going to pick Taylor, but she doesn't want to. And I'm like, don't say that. If you're going to choose her, just choose her. Go on with your life. We'll just call this what it was. Right. And at that point, I was like, okay, you do your thing. You be with Taylor. I don't need to see you in town anymore. You guys can just be together. And then. Riley comes back and Riley has a problem with boundaries so I had like I said already told her if you're gonna choose this other girl stick with it and we were not talking but then she started texting me Riley did and said I'm in your room where are you at because in Rexburg nobody locked their doors because it was a relatively safe town not when she was there though and she would just walk in to my house and sit on my bed oh I think I was in the the complexes gym at the time and I was like you're in my room what do you mean and I go down to my apartment and sure enough she was in my apartment and she tells me that she has COPD this girl is maybe 22 or 23 at the time oh and she has a year to live wait what's the I'm just gonna let you it's like a lung disease yeah it's like a if you think of like people that smoke a lot and they have the it's the what is it called chronic chronic obstructive pulmonary disease like cigarette smoke and air pollution is basically those are like the main causes doctor so if you think over here okay so a year to live and the first thing I said to her I should have just trusted my gut everybody says that but my first initial reaction was why don't you talk to me talk to your girlfriend about that because that's who you're with is it not yeah yeah why are you sitting on my bed I was like you chose to not be with me why you know I'm sorry that you you only have a year to live but also I'm not your girlfriend so did you believe her like that she actually was that sick you did okay I did and when I told my friends about it why would someone lie about that right like and again I have no reason to not trust you at this point you haven't blatantly done anything to break my trust that I know of I just thought it was maybe a messy little summer that we were having and then she comes back with this and I'm like okay so I tell my friends that she has COPD and they give me the biggest side eyes ever they're like girl there's no way that she's lying and I would rather err on the side of believing someone when they're telling me that than to be someone that's like you're not actually dying and then be wrong you know what I'm saying what kind of asshole are you right and again that's manipulation I was about to say that's a manipulation tactic because they know how are you supposed you you're an asshole if you just say no exactly so I was kind of backed into a corner with that one and I was just trying to be supportive because again I just want to be there for people this world has enough evil in it I just want to be kind when I can so this was around Thanksgiving of that year so this summer was kind of like she flip-flopped she went back to the ex with Taylor whatever we reconnected around Thanksgiving break so she still had one dog at this point in time and she I realize now that she just needed somebody to take care of him when she went back home to Colorado but she kind of left him with me and all of my friends hated this dog it was a pug I don't know how you guys feel about pugs but my friends hated this dog pugs it's and they're really loud about it no I mean I don't hate them but I am like dang you guys can't breathe yeah it's very unfortunate like I'm like are you guys okay yes it's scary I've I've been a I've dog sat a pug before and I was like I can't look away exactly for babies okay so you're watching this this little smushy dog yes so I'm taking I'm carting this pug around she kind of puts this dog on me while she goes home and I'm like I can't breathe I can't breathe I can't breathe and she she kind of presents it as like I'm done with Taylor I really actually love you and I really need somebody to watch this dog so we're like oh my gosh and I also want to say you guys already know this but like when you look back at some decisions that you made you don't even understand how somebody talked you into it sometimes you're like me now would have said hell no yeah but for me back then clearly was feeling something different and you have to honor that so much easier said than done also when someone's coming to you and says I'm sick and I was evicted and I'm in a toxic relationship and my poor baby I don't want to take them on the plane because they can't you know what you're not like Mackenzie you said what are you going to be the asshole you could you're you almost volunteer to help yeah so yeah Thanksgiving is when we reconnect the dog thing happens and I was getting text messages still that were like I'm so in love with you like she really kicked it into high gear after Thanksgiving because she had me on the hook at that point and we became official December of that year so that next month maybe a couple weeks later we became official and everyone in our community knew her and I were together we were very public and it was great it was great we dated from December to March so this is December of 2019 to March of 2020. Significant for many reasons before we get into March of 2020 where are you in terms of school and being out and comfort around religion at this point oh that's a great question so by that point I had already decided that I was leaving the church there was actually a moment that I had where I was kind of testing God in a way which they definitely tell you not to do for a reason and I had drank with some of my friends the night before which was a big no no it was a Saturday night and the next day at church I was like you know if I feel really guilty if the spirit tells me that that was a bad thing to do then I will repent and I will lean into this I'll like really be a member again and I go to church and I felt absolutely no guilt at all I felt perfectly fine and it was a really good moment for me because it wasn't super significant in the way that I felt anything big but I was just like okay this is my answer and I'm going to move forward with that and it gave me a lot of peace actually so that was really awesome and that was kind of where I was at with my spiritual journey at that time I had made up my mind I was going to leave and with the BYU schools it's really hard to transfer out of them before you've gotten some kind of degree associates or bachelors because a lot of the classes they have are not recognized by other universities yes oh no and that really sucks so the best way for anybody listening as well the best way if you are stuck in that situation to get out is to get your associates and then transfer with your associates somewhere else because another university will accept the associates and then you can just pick up and go from there so hot tip so that was my plan but during that time with our relationship I was fully focused on this relationship with Riley and as far as I knew Taylor was also from California so when Taylor was not living an hour or so away from Rexburg she was back home in California and I would not hear anything about her or from her so we never were in contact during any of these moments I will also say this is a little messy because that's just the nature of things sometimes when Riley and Taylor were first together Taylor did cheat on her on Riley with another person from the queer group that person comes back into the story as my roommate hey because we all met from the queer group so the next semester we're like you guys are cool let's live together so I'm dating Riley and my roommate has like kissed Taylor who is the ex-fiancee of your girlfriend got it yes I mean it's a friend group a young queer friend group it's common yes overlap so there was definitely drama there and Riley didn't really want me to be friends with that roommate but we really clicked and I still love them down but we were together from December to March and things were so perfect like we went to go visit her family pretty early on I think it was in December she actually took me home and something that she said to me was that it was that you really wanted or needed in a relationship and she would give it to the next person and not to you so for example with Taylor she never took Taylor to meet her family and they were together for quite some time and we're engaged off and on mind you and she immediately took me home to her family and I know now that she probably did that as a way to like rub it in her face you know so she would do things like that intentionally was her family Mormon yes okay how oh okay and she also I was really blonde at the time and she would tell me that her sisters were going to make fun of me her sisters are like I think there are maybe like five six years older than us and she was like they might make fun of you because you're blonde and I was like what does that mean like why so I'm over here preparing to like confront these sisters and be made fun of by them and I was like what does that mean like why so I'm over here preparing to and it ended up being really chill everybody was very nice very sweet very welcoming they were with her being gay and we're sitting at the table and Riley had gotten up to do something and I turned and I was like you know I was really nervous to meet you guys because Riley told me that you guys didn't like blonde girls and her sister was like Riley why would you say that that's a lie that's not even true and so that moment was really odd because I was like why would you go out of your way to make me nervous to meet your family yeah oh yeah well that's what it was she was trying to make you everything had to have like a touch of drama with it you know you couldn't just do anything normal with her everything had to be something a little bit more dramatic yes exactly around that time too she was living with me and my roommates and my roommates hated it because of how back and forth she had been with me over the summer and because of how messy it had gotten they were like we don't feel good about her living with us and I was such I was such an asshole about it I was like well she's gonna live with us because she needs help right now and she doesn't have a place and doesn't have a job you know like I was really sticking up for her and my friends did not want that to happen but I digress she was living with us during that time so it's like March 2020 at this point the relationship has been going great March 2020 is really when the excitement comes in because there was in the honor code they changed the way that we were feeling and they changed the way that we were feeling and they changed the language around homosexuality and what happened is at all the BYU schools they changed it to say something like you can be queer and you can act on it within these boundaries but having sex is still a no-no and so a lot of students took that as oh I can have a girlfriend and I can kiss my girlfriend and we can hold hands and we can have hold hands but we just have to be chased that was kind of the vibe that everybody got from it and people started posting yeah and it was a really big deal people started posting pictures of them kissing in front of the Brigham Young statue in Provo and people were posting their relationships that they had been hiding because they were scared they were going to get kicked out of school and it was a really big thing and BYU Idaho is much smaller than BYU Provo like we didn't even have a sports team we didn't even have a sports team we didn't even have a sports team at all like nothing very very very tiny but people there were also like okay I guess I can be gay now you know and the church I want to say it was within the week sent everyone an email and was like hey by the way you still can't be gay you can't kiss you can't act on it at all so they completely backtracked and it really upset a lot of people and it started this protest at all BYU schools where the students were like why would you make it sneaky like that because now we've just exposed ourselves and now we don't know if we're going to get kicked out of school because you guys have screenshots I wonder if that's was the intention do you think that would have been like something they wanted people to come out so they could then it would not surprise me in the slightest or they didn't realize maybe they didn't realize how many people were gay or paid attention to the honor code in that way like maybe they just thought we weren't paying attention enough but when you're when you're in that position like you're kind of a minority at the school and you're trying to stay undercover that's something you're going to pay attention to you know of course and just to kind of reiterate the the situation with being gay and the honor code they would come after you for anything that you do so me and Riley also had to be very careful with posting our relationship we would post things together but we had to be like sneaky about it like something that could leave something open to the imagination kind of yeah and not like outright saying this is my girlfriend yes and that also makes it so easy to cheat because if you don't post them on social media that's a way to be private about it but she has such a good excuse to be like obviously I can't post you uh-huh just just a just a thought yeah no you're right on track all right keep going yes so they changed the rules and we're like okay we're going to language in the honor code and we start these protests so her being the president of this queer club I was vice president too and so me and Riley had coordinated protests and it started out with maybe eight or nine of us standing in front of campus with our little signs and then we started spreading the word on twitter and people started retweeting it like crazy well I say like crazy but back then it was a lot it was really an amazing thing to be a part of truly like I still feel so lucky and blessed to be a part of it it ended up being I think 300 plus people that joined us because there's a really big it sounds like an oxymoron a bit but a progressive mormon community in Utah like a lot of mothers of queer students or kids are like this is not right I still want to follow God but I think that God also loves his gay children so we need to yeah we have listeners that and I know we'll say it in the intro and whatnot but we're not obviously making blanket statements about every single mormon or every single religious person so it's nice that you're like yeah part of your story is the group of people in the church yeah like no this can change yes and they were crucial because they really build the bridge between the church and anyone who feels victimized by the church they are the last line of defense and I think they're really important although the church is not a part of my life anymore actively I do still really honor and appreciate the work that they do and did for us because we really couldn't have done it without them so yeah that was really amazing and special so we had big speakers and we were playing you need to calm down by Taylor Swift and we were all putting together playlists and we were dancing in the streets and we didn't really expect anything to change per se but we just wanted the campus to know that we were there and that there were so many of us that still wanted to be a part of the church or the school and or the community in some way and you're going to recognize us and you're going to see that we are here and we're not going away so that was basically the idea behind it because we figured the church was never going to change its stance on gay people and that was a big misconception about the protest people were like why would you even go to BYU if you're gay why would you even be here because it's cheap because it's easy or god forbid someone would go to BYU if you're gay because it's cheap because it's easy someone wants to try to be a part of the church but can't deny themselves for the rest of their lives like me so there's definitely a lot of nuance there but yes around March of 2020 is when the protests happened and Riley was also trying to spearhead a lot of this so Riley had a habit of taking charge which I really appreciated because she had been in a position of power in the queer group and had been around in town longer than I have and knew more people than I did so I just kind of let her take the reins on that and she had connections with people like these mothers of queer kids she was connected with all those little groups and that was really crucial to getting more people at the protests and later starting a GoFundMe because we wanted to open a queer resource center in Rexburg so it was not going to be affiliated with BYU-Idaho for obvious reasons but we wanted to have our queer meetings there and we wanted to have our queer meetings there every week we wanted to have a gender affirming closet and we wanted to provide therapy for people and we really needed the funds and we needed people in the community to come together for us yeah so we announced that we were gonna open this center I came up with the name I called it Marsha's Place for Marsha P. Johnson because I thought that was very special and cute things were really looking up at that point you know we started the GoFundMe and pretty quickly we got about seven thousand dollars within the first year and we were like oh my god we're gonna week or so. And we had to keep raising our goal on there because we were collecting money so fast. Like people really, really wanted to be a part of this. The tragic thing is that the lockdown happened the day after our third protest, our biggest one. So we still wanted to move forward with the plans for the center because that was still a really big goal of ours. So we kind of had to go underground a little during that time. And something that was happening is Riley was getting a lot of recognition and Riley was being really cagey about me or the other president meeting with people and having interviews. And she was setting up interviews with the local newspaper and was talking to reporters and photographers and videographers, but was not including the rest of us in that plan. And we had kind of created a little council, again, very Mormon, but we had created a little council of, of gay people who really wanted to make something happen. And I can't remember what I was in charge of, but everybody had their job, but she very much was not filling us in on a lot of that. And then, like I said, Riley is still living with me at this time, but things are really starting to go to her head after these protests, because she gained a lot of followers on Twitter. A lot of followers on Instagram, and she was kind of posturing herself as the BYU-Idaho person, like the BYU-Idaho queer person. because she had also spearheaded protests in the past against the honor code before she got expelled. So she had already kind of made a name for herself, whatever. During that time, Taylor comes back from California and comes back into town. And Riley is living with me. I'm getting ready to graduate with my associates. March, lockdown, Taylor moves back into town. Just reiterating because it's about to get confusing again. Okay. Okay. I got my notepad out. Taylor starts dating my roommate. The one that she had hooked up with when she was engaged to Riley. Okay. And Riley and I are dating. So as I'm roommates with this girl, we are both dating exes. And like I said, Riley's living with me. So there's, you know, they're crossing paths in our apartment. So we're playing with fire, all of us. Like, you know, this is not a clean cut situation by any means. And she's gaining recognition. So she's getting cocky too. And they start posting TikToks together. So Taylor. Riley? Yes. The exes. Okay. While, while we're both in very clear relationships with these people, like the people in our community know that we are official, both of these couples. Taylor. Taylor gained a following later on because she is a dancer. Um, and she's really good at dancing. And I think she got like 20,000 followers or something. But before that, I think she was only at 10 K at this point, either way, she's got a bit of clout online and Riley loves that. So they start posting videos together and making jokes about how coronavirus tore them apart and then brought them back together. And then Riley's telling me that again, if somebody came to me and acted like this in a relationship now, I'd be like, pack your bags, you're gone. But at the time she was telling me, well, I'm being manipulated into this relationship again. And she wants us to get back together. And I'm only, it's only a joke. Like the videos are just a joke. I just want you to know I'm still with you. I still love you. By the time that her birthday, that Riley's birthday comes around in early April, they are together. So what do you mean? What's it like? Yeah. My roommate comes to me one day and shows me a TikTok that they had made together and was like, have you seen this? And it was so guys, it was so cringy. It was so bad. I can't even believe I let that hurt my feelings for a second thinking about it now, but it was Taylor pushing Riley against a wall by her neck or something. And then like getting really close together. It was so gross. Wait, is your roommate like, what the heck is going on? Like what? Yeah. My roommate was completely blindsided by it, but Riley had already told me that they were going to make some TikToks together. I just had not seen them yet. But my roommate comes to me and is like, have you seen this? And I said, no, that's a little weird. Why are they doing that? And then they both, Riley and Taylor revealed to me and my roommate that they are in fact going to get together again. So they, did they like sit you down and were like, Hey, we have something to tell you. Not together together, but they definitely discussed it with each other. Definitely after cheating as well. They discussed it with each other and then had separate conversations with us. So where's Riley going to live now? Keep going. Sorry. I have a lot. No, that's a, that's a great question. So Taylor has now moved back for another semester of school. So that is where Riley goes. Also around her birthday, she still was being a little unclear with me about her and Taylor being official. And she was telling me in private. So her birthday is April 5th. So this is very, very early in April. She tells me that I'm not allowed to post anything publicly for her birthday or acknowledge her in any way on her birthday. And I, I know now it's because she didn't want Taylor to see anything and, and see that we were still in contact or still flirty with each other. So by her birthday, she's very clear that her and Taylor are together. But right before that, she's like, you can't post anything with me. I don't even think I'm going to spend my birthday with you. She spent her birthday with Taylor and this other best friend that she had, who also had feelings for her. And she had said to me, I know she has feelings for me, but it's like kind of sad. Like she would talk down on this girl who really wanted to be her friend and was also discovering her sexuality. So she would catch people when they're like vulnerable and figuring things out about themselves. Cause she was this cool person who was so comfortable in her sexuality. So you were drawn to it in a way. And I've also noticed she really loves to have three people at all times. She likes to have a girlfriend, someone on the side, and then a friend that she's kind of flirty with. She knows she could have, she needed. So yeah, that was kind of the deal. Like she was hanging out with the ex and this friend for her birthday instead of me. And I remember I had posted something on Twitter that was like, happy birthday. Like I did it anyway. And she retweeted everyone but me. And then when I brought it up, cause I went through, I was like, I'm going to see if I'm the only person. And I was, and when I confronted her about it, she made me feel so dumb and silly. And I felt dumb and silly because I'm a 20 year old woman over here. Like, why do you not retweet me? You know, like she puts you in this position where you kind of are having to beg. And that wasn't very, not cool. And then she talked to another friend of ours and said that I didn't do anything for her birthday and was complaining about how bad of a person I was. Yeah. At the same time. So I was like, okay, cool, cool, cool. And I told her, I was like, I would love to do something for your birthday, but you're not hanging out with me right now. So I, I spent her birthday feeling really guilty and it was just not a fun time. And she was out with her girl, with her ex-girlfriend. And she told you she was getting back with her ex-girlfriend and you were guilty. Like she really knew how to. She really had a way. Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, all of those pieces are, are in place now. So Riley and Taylor are back together again. I move into my own apartment because I have graduated. I have my associates. I have a full-time job in town. And when I was moving into my apartment, somehow, somehow Riley convinced me to let her stay on my because she needed a place to live. I don't remember right now where Taylor was at the moment. I think she had a place, but I think she had roommates that would tell on her for being gay. So, so Riley was like, I can stay with you. Right. And she had a way of making me say yes. So the reason she can't stay with her girlfriend is because some people in the apartment are going to be homophobic about it. That's going to make you feel like, oh, I feel bad for you. Exactly. And I'm thinking, you know, things are platonic between us again. Like, obviously you really burned me and hurt my feelings, but I'm still a kind person and I don't want to leave you out in the cold. So yes, you can stay on my couch, but there have to be boundaries. You know, that was kind of the premise of it. While this is happening too. So this is leading into summer of 2020. Marsha's place, we're still collecting money for it. And we got to $10,000. We reached our goal of that. Wow. We were really getting a lot of momentum. We were getting everything together. It was really exciting. It's so cool. Yeah, it was really, it was really cool to be a part of. We had gotten the $10,000 and Riley signed the lease for Marsha's and we were going to launch it in January of 2021. That was supposed to be the opening date. And it's right now, summer of 2020. So we've got some months before we're supposed to open that. You're like, racing yourself. So yeah, we, we got the money pretty quickly. The money actually would go to my account first because she did not have a card of her own and she would use my debit card. And then once she got her own debit card, I just transferred all of the money. As soon as it would hit my account, I'd send it straight to her. And then we eventually got it to go straight to her without me involved at all. So in theory, $10,000 has been sent her way to sign the lease, pay the rent, keep the water on, like all of that for, for Marsha's place. Oh my gosh. Literally. Can you, $10,000? First of all, that's a lot of money. I don't trust where that's going. Does everybody have their pens and paper out? Because I've had to take notes in and next week it gets even more jumbly and that's the way it goes with some of these. Some of these just get so frustrating and you start to wonder, like from the beginning of the story, I'm going, okay, is this financial? Is this just someone who's, yeah. Is it financial? Is it cheating? What is it? And a lot of times, as soon as they say something like, oh, I sent the money for this or we had a lease and I'm like, oh no, but we'll hear the rest of it next week. But man, yes, we will do a thorough dogfish debrief at the end of part two. So if you have thoughts, questions, comments, things you want us to discuss, you can comment them on socials. We are everywhere at Dating Detectives Podcast, or some of the platforms like Spotify has a comment section. So you can leave questions, comments there, or our favorite place to discuss, Patreon, of course. Yes. And also, if you leave comments on the Spotify or anywhere, like wherever you can give us a five-star review, we would greatly appreciate that. Yeah, right. Your comments and those stars really help us to grow as a platform and as a show. So we really appreciate when you guys do that. It means a lot to us. And if you want to join the Patreon, we'll put the link in the show notes. It's just $5 a month for bonus episodes. And then the $9 is the girlfriend experience. All you can listen, no ads. No ads. Yeah. So join us there. And if you have a story you want to submit to us, please email us, investigate at thedatingdetectivespodcast.com. Courtney is a great guest and this is a wild story. So come back on Monday because we need to process this together. And as always, trust your intuition. We'll see you next time.