The Business of Belonging: Why Membership Clubs Matter More Than Ever with Matt Hobbs

For centuries, clubs and membership organizations have shaped society. They have influenced culture and created spaces where ideas, relationships, and opportunities flourish. Yet in today's world, where connection is increasingly digital and communities often feel fragmented. The desire to belong may be stronger than ever. Today's guest is someone who has spent years studying and advising some of the most compelling membership and club concepts around the world. Matt Hobbs is the founder and CEO of Copper Beach Consultancy, a firm that works at the intersection of membership, luxury, hospitality, and community building. In this conversation, we're exploring the evolution of clubs, the true meaning of exclusivity, why belonging has become one of the most valuable luxury commodities of our time, and where the future of membership is headed. This is his first podcast appearance and I could not be more delighted that this is the space where it happens. [Music] Welcome to the Hale Effect Podcast. I'm Rachel Hale, brand strategist, marketing expert, and founder of the Hale Effect, where soul-meat strategy and business. This is your space for real, unfiltered conversations, and the clarity that brings you back to what you actually stand for. We believe in leading with intuition and ambition, growth that's expansive, not exhausting. So if you're ready to build boldly without losing yourself in the process, you're in the right place. Let's dive in. [Music] Welcome to the Hale Effect Podcast, Matt. Such a pleasure to have you here. It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you. So in the intro, I divulged that this is your first podcast appearance, and I could not be more grateful that this is the stage that you choose to share your message. Thank you. I'm excited to talk to you. Yes. I will also link to a recent CNN article where you've been mentioned. So I feel like this is your moment, and it's an exciting time to be having this conversation. It is. It is. So before we get into your work, I just wanted to start somewhere really simple and very human. Let's say you're at a dinner party. When someone asks you what you do, what do you say? I usually say I help people build membership clubs. And then I often get quite a blank expression. And that usually is, it's kind of complicated for people. And sometimes they're interested in going to it, and sometimes it's just, move on. Have you found that people understand what a membership club is more so now than in previous years? Or are you still getting the same ratio of blank stairs to understanding? Well, it depends who we're speaking to and where they are. So in markets like Asia, and we have a partnership in Vietnam, they really do not understand or have any cultural touchstone towards a membership club. And you know, less so now, but three or four years ago in America, it would be so a house. Everyone is familiar with so House or if they're older, probably the more established clubs in New York and elsewhere. And I think London, you know, everyone has quite a personal relationship to a club. So if you mentioned membership club, they'll sort of talk to where they go to or what they know of. And then some people are genuinely interested. And you have a really, a real opinion on the different clubs and ask you, you know, interesting questions about them. Yeah, that's fascinating how you find different markets responding to the concept. Because clubs are one of the oldest social structures in the world, but people have never really stopped to understand why they existed or what they were even built to do. So with your experience, could you take us back and teach us where the club concept came from and what human need it was originally answering? When asked this question, we always start with coffee, funnily enough. In the mid 17th century in London, coffee became a thing. And coffee shops way before Starbucks were a real social hub. And in fact, in, in and around what was the city of London at the time, prior, you know, the coffee shops created environments where the London Stock Exchange was created, and all these really important sort of parts of British history and British culture. But they got so busy. And this is sort of mid to late 1600s, I guess. They were cursed with what was the sort of the in those days, the spam email, all the pamphleties, this is before newspapers. So people try to do business and coordinate social and commercial networks. They, everyone that wanted a piece of that, wanted to promote something, came to them. And they got sort of overrun and a group of men, as it was exclusively in those days, set up a club with Mr Bianchi, who had a chocolate shop in St James' and called it Whites. And it was, I think, really for privacy and for a bit of discretion, and to bring their crowd and their network together. And partly to do business, also to behave very badly out of the public eye. And there were, you know, lots of famous stories of people losing their estates and gambling and drinking and all sorts of misbehavior. So, you know, the clubs of these days, they'd not do anything new. They're following a long tradition of people getting together. Yeah, there are so many parallels between that time and pamphletiers, like before newspapers, it's hard to fathom that time. But we can really draw a lot of parallels to today's day and age. I mean, we're being bombarded. It used to be banner ads. And now it's push notifications or social media. And like we're just being bombarded with so many messages and influencers. And it's very difficult to understand what's real and what's fake. And so what now we perceive a membership or a club to be very exclusive, it sounds like there was some genesis in protection from all of that noise. Do you find that to be true? Yeah, I totally true. And I'd say that, you know, now there is, you know, entire industries, tech industries, vying for our attention, paying for our attention. And, you know, when you're trying to do things or come to things, having the absence of that kind of distraction is really available, I think, in sort after. And I think clubs have always had this dual purpose. You can do what you want there. Once you're in and you've been accepted as a member of the club, you know, it's then your club, you know, you may have breakfast there. You may go out with your friends and have a few cocktails or you may have a business meeting the afternoon and typically within some boundaries and terms and conditions and bylaws of the club, you could pretty much do whatever you wanted. Right. And so it sounds like there are some through lines that in clubs and memberships that have stayed true through the test of time. What have you seen change or evolve in the club and membership space? I think that for a long time, you know, after whites and the other clubs, it was really, they were formed from networks that were typically either educational or family or like aristocrats. There was a very sort of strong sort of landed gentry in the UK in London for that. Or it was military clubs and it was, you know, regiments and so on. And they were formed through social networks and often from people quite young and when these networks were quite tight. And I think that the biggest change is that has happened in the last probably 40 or 50 years where there is much more emphasis in club landing in certain professional industries, more social networks rather than tied into a specific, you know, social class. And it's become slightly, it's been come very much more open and critically, I suppose, females have been accepted, which wasn't always the case until fairly recently. And I'd say probably when the Groucho club in Dean Street in London opened in 1985, it made a point of having females on the committee. And so it was always, and that was a, that was a big moment and it was sort of within the sort of social economic era of facture and the deregulation of the city of London. And there was this can do energy and yeah, the Groucho, I think was the first people to really not just accept women, but to actively have them as part of the fabric of the club. That's so fascinating because it sounds like this concept of memberships and clubs is much more than amenities. It's about an idea of belonging. You mentioned military clubs or families and belonging. And the idea that an entire gender was excluded from that in the early days is actually laughable now when we look at it in retrospect. But you know, exactly. And it's sort of unfathomable now, but you know, I think clubs usually quite good reflection of the era they were founded in. You know, just how the working places changed and how women have become equal, at least equal. And in some cases much more influential in certain professions and working in social and political life. And that's reflected in clubs. In fact, I still find it astonishing that there's a reluctance from some of the older clubs to admit women. I don't, I'm of a generation. I just don't get it. My mom was first generation women's lib. She had three sons. You know, we were taught to cook and clean and iron. And it was just it's sort of it's one of those weird things that history throws up. But thankfully, it's no longer the case. Well, you know, but the whole idea of a membership is if you don't like it, then don't belong to it. Right? If you don't ascribe to those types of values and that's a good idea. that's not the type of environment you want to be in that single gender, then you just simply don't belong to that club, right? It's nothing is being forced upon you. So I'm curious, what is that belonging actually feel like? And in your space, how do you design to create that? - This is a really zeitgeist question and belonging is, seems to, excuse me, crop up in so many conversations, connectivity, connection, belonging. And it's partly designed, so it's partly strategic in the work we do, but I think more than anything, it's cultural. It's how you set up the club and how you hire people, what you make their priorities, what you value, what you measure as a KPI in some respects. And I think belonging in membership club context, it starts with recognition, so that you're known. If I have a criticism of clubs, I think too many of them don't make the effort that the first thing that happens when you walk through the door is the team know your name. I actually think it's unforgivable. If you think of the process of applying and getting a proposal in a seconder and sending your details often they have to write character references and then they ask you to pay money to join, I think the very least a club can do is know who, who the hell you are in that context. So belonging is about recognition, it's about familiarity, it's about comfort. And I think it's about making sure, as you've just said, it's choosing the right place for you. Good clubs should have their own identity and character. That means that some people like them and some people won't. And that should be what the selection process assesses. - You mentioned a really interesting point of KPI's because memberships, we're talking about it a lot from the design perspective and the user experience, but you're running these clubs. And so if you want to have the right people in the right seats, how do you gauge, like let's see how well you're doing on the belonging scale, how are you judging the workers in these spaces? - You are using very human metrics. Typically the most common is engagement, we call it engagement, it's how frequently members are coming and an increasingly competitive market. You can't lie, if members are coming all the time and using the club, whether that's for a coffee or lunch or dinner, that's good. You have certain mechanics there, you have usually a program of events, that's really important because you have to sort of anticipate what your members are interested in, what you're getting through the door and that can be a whole range of different social, experiential things that you do. And then I think key metric, which is closely guarded by clubs is the retention rates. So what's your nutrition rate, we call it? What percentage of members do you lose every year? And typically the lower that percentage point, the better the club is doing it retaining members. And I think that that's a very honest way of assessing how members are enjoying the club. - Sure, and I'm sure you also factor in what competition looks like in your rates and are you increasing the rates? And what does that threshold look like? I'm sure there's a lot that goes into it from the business perspective as well. - An enormous amount. I mean, we spend an awful lot of time on the landscape and the sector, not just in London, but all over the world. What is, what are we seeing? We're all, what are we seeing less of? Where are places opening up? And indeed, why some places haven't opened a club that should have a club? And that forms a part of our business. So yeah, we would know pretty much every major club at the cost of membership, the joining fee, typically the average spends and so on. And actually, if we have a client or a partner come to us and look to have a club, we won't do anything until we've assessed the market and made sure that from the very outset before, the exciting creative period of building the club and designing the club, it's like, well, who's this for? Because that will inform the design, the use of space, the spatial layout, the price point, the cost of the refurbishment. And we always make sure that we have a very dynamic financial modeling system through the creative process. So something as banal as how big the restaurant should be, really impacts what your staff cost is, what it's gonna cost you in year one, typically you build over one to three years in terms of getting into some sort of maturity in a membership club. And you need to know what investors want to know what their return is and what sort of profit they'll make. So we get really deep into it and really assess what that market is and then that target market, who are your competitors, where else are they going? You know, and clubs in city centers do compete with restaurants because your members go to other restaurants. So if your clubs in a neighborhood with six amazing Italian restaurants, we would probably suggest you don't do Italian in your club, you do something else and something that's more relevant to the membership. Right, so your comp set becomes inherently much larger depending on the location and the amenities you're offering. Right? We have several people working on it full time to make sure that we're up to date and relevant. So you mentioned growth and investors. And obviously they're looking at all of these KPIs, but have you ever seen a case study where there were some investors and someone favored growth over the sense of belonging and the real essence of what the club stood for? Yes, the most obvious example is the wonderful So House. Nick Jones, he founded So House. I think he's possibly the most under celebrated person in the whole industry. He was such a game changer. And he was so, it was such an off the first original So House on Greek Street was an old TV recording studio, I think. And it had a screening room. So he kept the screening room to cater for the film people and the media people and build a club out of that. And it was so tight and so exciting to be there and so full of really interesting people. And I think that as much as I admire it, I mean, from the business point of view, it's a phenomena what he's done. He's changed, he's rewritten the industry. But I think So House with that growth and as they developed and developed, I think that that's probably had a somewhat detrimental effect to the actual original ethos and process. And you know, clubs are, they're very unique and great clubs are usually authored by somebody. And that means they're quite a personal expression of what their idea of a great club is. And when you do grow, often, you know, sometimes it's because your members are traveling somewhere and you realize that they have a need for their club somewhere. For example, Robin Burley with Five Hartford Street in London has opened Maxime's in New York, totally logical, I think a wonderful addition to the club scene in New York. But that growth, you know, the big risk is your team because really great clubs like Robbins, people are used to seeing the same staff, that recognition, that familiarity. And then when you have to take those guys and take them somewhere else to export some culture and some standards in the club, then you do run the risk of interfering with that relationship you have with your members. So scaling clubs is not without risk. It quite often is a really good idea, but it's not without risk. Yeah, it's interesting. I was reading someone's perspective about the event that just took place in Cannes, Cannes Lions. And they had opened that event up to more creators. So think influencers, people who are creating YouTube content. And my understanding is that historically, this was reserved for executives. And they found that some of the content was either deluded or the rooms were too big. And so I could see how that happens. You know, but that also represents change. And so sometimes change, just in its very essence, is difficult for certain people to swallow. Have you seen that? I think that that's not unique to membership clubs. I think it's unique to any businesses that have to move with the times. Social media has transformed publishing in media in general significantly. And I commend people that want to welcome you in. And I really think that people have to be open-minded with that. But again, it's how much your brand, I suppose, your essence is compromised and what the trade-off is. If you're trading off just for money because you want to increase ticket sales or membership subs, that's usually not a good strategy, as typically great club operators, they are essentially the custodians of this environment that they've created. And if you start to compromise it, then it's risky. Yeah, absolutely. And I know that there's a lot of pressure, the word inclusivity and being inclusive and incorporating everyone and caring about everyone's feelings, seems to be the flavor of the day. And while I think we all ascribe to that at a certain aspect, that's how the membership and clubs inherently have a degree of exclusivity. And so when you talk about exclusivity, how do you frame that? I think it's a word that's overused. I think selection is better. I think exclusivity is not something you market or sell. It's something you earn. And I think it comes from a deliberate approach to making sure you're doing something specifically for the values and principles you have in the environment you want to create. I think membership clubs do get criticised for being inclusive because there's a transaction at the beginning anyway. There's a lot of pressure. money changing hands and not everyone can afford that. But I also think it's a modern phenomena and what nobody talks about as well is how difficult it is to book a restaurant. I love it. I started in restaurants and I'm passionate about restaurants but if you try booking a table in a restaurant in London and I suspect New York and other places, at a time you actually want to eat, it's really difficult and clubs do offer, you know, for this membership fee, a degree of flexibility and access that is really welcome, especially for people with busy lives who may need a place to meet, talk, eat. You can just go to your club. I bristle a little bit with the exclusivity but I prefer selection. I love that. I think it's a beautiful reframe and you're saying very much the same thing. The same way that inclusivity sounds great. But you know, like if you have a party at your house, you're not going to invite the whole neighborhood as a concept, it sounds great but it's, it would also be awkward, you know, not everyone shares the same likes or has the same life trajectory or is even at the same life stage. So I get that and that makes me wonder like boundaries are important and so where do you set the boundaries and how do you frame that they're actually a benefit to your members? I think the boundaries give clarity and reassurance and comfort, you know, and you know, some people do that with price. So there's a wonderful club in Palm Beach called Carriage House. I think their joining fee is something now approaching $400,000 and that's a really clear signal, right? You know, and that's a boundary and I would say that in other boundaries, I think in other clubs, their boundaries are maybe more about, you know, their dress code or their opening hours or even their location. You know, if you're opening in Brooklyn or Shoreditch, your your attracting and your audiences is going to be different to Mayfellberg Arabia or the Upper East Side or Midtown in New York. So I think that the boundaries come in various forms, some are financial, some are cultural, some are behavioral, but they are, you know, that going back to the sense of belonging, once you know the boundaries and you know the rules and, you know, expectations, you feel more comfortable there. And some people love that. You know, people of members of golf clubs really want to know exactly how they're supposed to dress, what the etiquette is and so on. I'm not such a fan of rules and regs, but I think boundaries are required. I like the way that you've framed it. It's clarity. If you know that you have to wear all whites to enter the tennis or the pickleball court, you just do it. And sometimes in a lot of these folks' lives, there are so many decisions that they have to make. And so if they just go into their club, they know exactly what to expect, they know exactly what to wear. It takes that decision fatigue away and gives them that clarity and sense of belonging that you reference. So, it's such a great point, Rachel. I mean, that you you frame that perfectly that, you know, nobody talks about decision fatigue. It's a real thing. You know, when you're in when you're on your club and you know the restaurant manager and he says, I've got some really lovely fish tonight. You fish all or pasta and you're all pasta and it's just I don't have to see a menu. And that in itself is a form of luxury, I think, you know, framed another way. We attempt in every club we do to make it as frictionless as possible. So, you know, from the arrival to the comfort of getting sat, the quick service to recognition, the absence of friction is such a wonderful luxury in life because mostly in our life, we're constantly dealing with little minor challenges all day long. And as you said, the decision fatigue is a thing. Is there an unexpected friction removal point that you insert in some of your clubs or that you've witnessed? Things that people don't realize creates friction that you've since removed. We think instant recognition is so powerful because everything is downstream from that. Once your team know from the dormant to the reception to the waiters, the bartenders, once they know who you are. And actually, this is, you know, upstream of that is culture. And hiring the right people and training the right people. So, I think recognition is really important. I turn this around slightly and say, I see constantly people for reasons I can go into adding friction, which is, you know, I understand to an extent, and I give an example would be, if you go to some clubs, Sir House is guilty of this, you're asked for your card when you go in, you sit down in order to drink, you'll ask for your card again. And I always think that it's evidence that, you know, you're in a members club. They've got your details. They probably have your credit card on record. And I think it's, it's, it's a bit clunky. And I think it, I think it creates friction. What I'm hearing you say is there's a lot of personalization. So if someone knows your name, it's all downstream from there, then they know your preferences. They know that you don't like capers. Make sure there's never capers on any, you know, all those little nuances. And I think that, like travel advisors, luxury travel advisors do this really well. And they communicate with, with hotels in that way. And so I'm just curious. Personalization feels very human, very, you know, I have to be involved in every step. But is there an element where technology could assist in that personalization? Like that example you mentioned at SoHo House, once you check in, do now all the bartenders have a picture of this person? And they know that they like a gin martini, this and this and this way. Or do you think that adds more friction? What's your perspective on it? I think that technology is brilliant. And, you know, with the AI revolution, it's wonderful that you can actually rely on technology to have institutional memory. But like all technology, it requires a human being to input there. And so we would typically make sure that there was updates on members' files about certain things. Obviously, if they've got a peanut allergy, obviously, if they only drink white burgundy, or they don't drink alcohol at all. But we would usually have that. And great hospitality. I mean, hotels and restaurants do this as well. But for membership clubs that have details on record of all their members, I think that that's an absolute must to have. And I think technology, you know, in the case of SoHo House, I think that they obviously got so big. And they have so many other houses. They have people that they don't know and they haven't got a relationship with flying in and coming from all over the world. So I understand why they do it. But nothing, nothing compares to somebody knowing who you are at the moment you walk in. And the really good place is know your wife and your business colleagues. And you just feel a million dollars when you walk in. And somebody says, Hey, Matt, hey Rachel, do you want to use your table? Oh, and by the way, we've got that special and you loved last month. Do you want to do it again? How rare is that? And it's really doesn't really cost anything, you know? Does moments feel priceless? They make you feel like you belong. Perfectly said. Perfectly said. And Matt, I don't feel like you wound up doing this work on accident. You mentioned you started your career in restaurants. So what led you to this point to have such a passion and to form such a formidable company in the space? I really, really struggled at school. I think you would probably label me neurodivergent these days, but I didn't get it. I couldn't understand it. I felt very stupid and actually school ended quite abruptly for me at about 15, 16. And at the time I was working as a teenager and sort of washing dishes and a little Italian restaurant in the Scottish borders in place called Galashiels. And I really liked it. I understood it. It was very human. It was very direct. I loved, you know, you do your job, I think I promoted to a waiter and I learned the menu and I did my job really well and people were happy. And there's something really lovely about this direct, immediate feedback loop of working in a service industry. And I was good at it. I was chronically shy and I'm a very introverted person. And it sort of allowed me to play a role in it, help me develop as a person. And the next job I got when I was about 18 was in a hotel restaurant in Edinburgh, which is the nearest big city. And I was very fortunate to meet a guy there called David Ramston, who had worked at LeCopris in London. So as a kid, it was 18, 19 in Edinburgh. He said to me, if you're serious about this business, there's only one restaurant to work in in the world. I said, where's that? And he said, it's the Ivy in London, which was the sister restaurant of LeCopris. This was 1994. I got the overnight bus, turn interview, first time in London, and a brilliant general manager there, Mitchell Everard. He's sadly no longer with us. He said, I'll give you a job as a commuator. And I said, okay, that sounds great in what a commuator was. Turns out I was cleaning toilets and polishing cutlery and running food up and down stairs. But I loved it. And the Ivy was, I'm not sure I've seen anything that comes close to that restaurant in its heyday. It was spectacularly exciting and really frequented by everyone in the world. And London wasn't quite as bustling with restaurants. So there was just this concentration of really cool, interesting people from around the world. And this was the 90s London was fizzing. Everyone was there. Nicole Kidman was in the blue room at the Don Mar. You know, the Blair government was creating this call Britannia. Oasis would play it. You know, it was just, and it felt really like the the place it was all happening was the Ivy and it was and I got completely completely hooked on it and stayed there for seven years until Nick Jones asked me to go and help him in New York for its so-house which I did. Wow, you know we keep coming back to this concept of belonging. It feels like school was not a right fit and then all the sudden you wound up at the Ivy and the way that you describe it London was fizzing, everyone was there, it was having a moment. It feels like things clicked and you felt this is where I belong. Exactly and what what I think is very I have a I have a big criticism of the industry because I still think particularly in some western countries that hospitality restaurants and hotels is some sort of mean your work and I totally disagree with that. The camaraderie and the wonderful relationships and the people you meet and the personal development you go through is amazing not at least the technical skill of how you you know everything from food ingredients wine, cocktails that there's a great great great people in hospitality of a huge in depth knowledge and I I really passionately feel that particularly now you know we know that there's going to be big job job losses with AI. The hospitality and the brilliant industry you can at 25 after a few years you can be a bar manager, restaurant manager you can be earning incredibly good money probably as good as your trainee solicitor or lawyer friend and you know when you go I want to I want to work in Dubai or I'll get a job in America or I'll fancy some Asia and it's one of those industries that you can instantly travel the world and I think it's a phenomenal place to work industry to work in when you're young and you're developing and and it gives you such a worldly insight into so many things. I love that you framed that because where I live I think there's still a confusion between the idea of service and servitude and especially when we're talking about getting into these clubs where the entry price tag is you know $400,000 or something like that you do feel like there would be an inherent us versus them and servitude kind of expectation. How do you influence the operation and running of certain clubs so that the the servers and the staff and the F&B folks still feel like they're doing meaningful work? Well the Mitchell Everard who I mentioned before this very charismatic GM of the IV and on this point you know particularly in the UK because it was there's very much you know servile and service are the same thing and he was baffled by that and he said no what we're trying to do here is we're trying to provide brilliant service and I think that it's not servitude it's not servile you are well faced with in the case of the IV and other great places some of those sophisticated worldly people on the planet that you know are also very spoiled usually and go wherever they want whenever they want and you have to anticipate their needs and deliver a highly complex multi variable experience within two hours in time on point hot food cold drinks or the rest of it and that's a skill a real skill and I think you should I take pride and I instill a culture of taking pride particularly if your ambition is to be the best which copper beach and we do we aspire to be the very best at this whenever you're trying to lead a world market you know it comes with challenges and expectations and you know finishing it a day and you've nailed it and everyone's happy and the people have had fun fun memories that they'll keep with them that's that's what we get out of bed for in the morning yeah and I think that you have such a unique perspective to make those things come to life and that's probably why a lot of your clubs had the staying power you know which which leads me into trends and fads and everyone is so consumed with what's new and what's hip right now and actually what led me to you was a membership of places to stay very luxury resorts and collections around the world so much so that you buy into the ability to then book at one of these places which I think you know 20 years ago people would have rolled their eyes like I have to pay to be able to pay to stay somewhere yes that is what we're talking about right so I'd love to get your take on you know what is new what is trending what's the future versus what just kind of feels like it's a fleeting moment it's a really interesting time to ask that question because a lot of the clubs I've referenced are basically traditional clubs based on food and beverage great food chef good service the real trend I think is that and I think we'll get to this in terms of the the Gen Z is that it's much more about lifestyle and if you are going to pay in some cases several thousand in other cases a lot more money actually what you want out of the club is is not just a good meal you want somewhere you can maybe work somewhere you can work out somewhere you can you know look after your well-being in other areas and I think that the traditional clubs are slowly catching up but they're kind of these traditional clubs as I said they're very much place makers they're or the alter of the operated you know I think you'll see a next generation of clubs come through that are much more focused on wellness even longevity as well as social and we we're working with a brilliant guy in fitness space a guy called Nick Mitchell we're talking about what what is he's one of the great sort of personal trainers he had ultimate performance and we're talking about what is what is great fitness linking with the lifestyle linking with the social and what does that look like because I think that if you take the the standards and the effort and the attention to detail that it comes with great food and drink and you apply it to wellness and gym then you're into a really interesting elevation of that side so I think that the trends will be more full lifestyle you show a bit with co-working post-covid and that's still a thing and you've got people that are obviously now focused entirely on some sort of subscription model for co-working but this integration of hybrid has to be managed really carefully because you want to have a place you want to hang out and have dinner may not be the same place you want to work or work out so design is very important in that and making sure that the flow is correct but ultimately it's you know it's an ecosystem for the members and giving them value right and I've heard of some sober clubs that are really focused around wellness like you referenced and and then I've even seen some offshoots in the states there's something called coffee and chill it's cold plunging and coffee and it happens and like in the morning in their these events that have become viral and they now have pop-ups in multiple cities and so I wonder what are your thoughts on that it's not really a membership it's kind of a following does that have staying power or how what's your perspective on it? I yeah I've heard of I haven't heard of that but I've heard of run clubs and how sometimes these communities and people with a sense of belonging are turning up at 6 a.m. with 300 other people to do a to do a run together my view on this is that you know people use the word connected and connectivity incorrectly I think we're all contactable and we can all contact but connection and actually I think that the digital world that we're working in now and we working constantly throughout the day and are you know all of our lives it's it's good it's good for contacts but it doesn't give you the connection and I think that there's a basic human beings are wired to be social creatures and that's not going to change whether you have Claude, GPT or whatever you do need that that that integration that that's social part of it so the coffee and chills I think I love these things they're great they're good for human beings they're good for your health your well-being so yeah I think that I think they'll be more of them and I think that they'll get more innovative and assuming we'll get more leisure time once a high takes over we will probably get more creative with what else we can do with these sorts of connections and social hubs yeah for sure I said we've got health and wellness and cold plunging I've seen like private race tracks for people who like to go fast in cars like there's all kinds of different offshoots that are coming up but how do you see you mentioned Gen Z earlier Gen Z millennials there are new generations that are infiltrating this space of clubs and memberships and this for lack of a better word exclusivity and craving for connection how do you think that's going to continue to shape this next evolution as we've seen clubs continue to evolve over time I think it's going to change a lot in fact there was an article in the financial times today about the enormous transfer of wealth that's happening in the next decade from the boomers to the millennials and Gen Z and they just want different things they don't and this article was was talking about JP Morgan and Goldman Sachs that have traded for decades on generational relationships and they just can't assume that somebody now is going to continue that relationship have the same appetite for risk or investment they may want to get into crypto not into guilt or T-bills so you know that there's a really really interesting moment where I think there is a societal change generational change and I think the millennials and and Gen Zs are looking for these sympathy people that have grown up with the internet, they've grown up digitally. And it's what they want and what they need. And again, going back to being wired to be social, I think it'll be fascinating to see how they evolve. And I actually think it's a great time to be in membership clubs because whether they're Uber, expensive or not, you know, there were, there's things called the Working Man's Club in the UK, which was, you know, for working men and they're now open to women largely, but, you know, there's a much more humble modest, but same principle, being around like-minded people, kindred spirits, common interests, sharing stories, having a drink, and having a bite to eat. So I think that this will really evolve over the next five to 10 years. You've created this beautiful illustration of the restaurant, the club. Like I can visualize what some of these spaces look like. They really feel like they're made for all of their members. With the new generation coming up, and this is obviously if you have a crystal ball, do you see that these physical spaces become more or less important? I think they're more important. I do. I think that they're a great antidote to the digital world. And I think that how they're designed, the purpose behind them, you know, we, a copper beach, have a heuristic, which is people place and purpose. Usually people, they have a place that's usually building or a location. They have, sometimes they have an idea of the people and we do membership strategies and target audiences, but the question that we, that will determine for us whether we advise them to do a club or not do a club is what's the purpose of the club? And you'd be surprised how often people haven't got that far. Often with quite a lot of investment. And I think that that is a really important part of it, you know, the purpose of the club. So going back to the Gen Z and the millennials and the physical space, the purpose is to bring people together. And the purpose is, you know, whether that's through a social sauna that can hold 60 people or, you know, a space where you can, you can work, but close your laptop and have a margarita at 5pm. You know, those rooms are, I think they're really important. You know, people, people meet people there, people meet their future spouses there, people, you know, meet their future business partners there. And there's this really wonderful rich history of clubs providing the space where there's a trust and that's something else with the club environment that you kind of, you have a higher level of trust because somebody's done the thinking about who else is in the room for you. And I think it's, it really helps to actually build friendships and great clubs, you know, you can sort of talk to anyone and everyone's kind of cool and you're like, this is great sense of belonging. And there's another element of proximity, physical proximity that creates some kind of an energetic connection that I still can't explain. But, you know, you and I were having this great exchange now, but if we're sitting next to each other sharing a coffee, there's something enhanced about that inherently. In real life. Yes. Yeah. It's a thing. It's a thing. They've got an acronym for it. It's a real thing. And, you know, I just don't think that's going away. I don't know and can really predict the future. Right. But I think that there is joyful moments when you connect with somebody and you realize you've met somebody that makes you laugh or, you know, has a common interest that's a bit odd and nobody, you know, how that's wonderful. That's what life is about, frankly, and, you know, I'm all for that. I even think that we're we're using more senses. I think it's obvious, but you're using more senses when you're interacting with someone in person. I can't tell you how many times I've met folks in real life, IRL, and they remark that, oh my god, you're so much shorter than I thought. It's a funny comment, but they're all the sudden building this persona based on a one-dimensional screen. They're hearing my voice, but there's a whole energy, you know, and so even someone's stature, how they hold themselves, what are they, what's their posture like? How do they cross their legs? This is sending us all these signals that we're missing in the virtual world. I couldn't agree more. Digital life is adequate for some things, but is not sufficient for a full relationship. I really believe that. You know, I love doing what I do because, you know, on an occasion where you've got a room full of people that are all getting on or meeting somebody or you, in great clubs, somebody, usually a club manager introduces you. So you guys should meet, and they do, and they become firm friends or they get married. You know, this is, I mean, I find that a real motivator for the work I do. So speaking of the work you do, what are some of the projects that are exciting you most right now? We have really fortunate. We're working on four continents at the moment. So we're working with, we have a partner in Vietnam, which is a very interesting market, which has zero concept of what a club could be, but is also going through this extraordinary evolution as a country and as a economy. So that's really, really interesting to work there. We have got a wonderful project in Dubai, which is a really dynamic, fully-energised market, but is quite short in membership clubs, and that's actually a club that does have wellness. It has paddle courts, has the most amazing terrace. It's really a beautifully designed space, really exciting. We have a project in Geneva, and there is, you know, an interesting type of client we have at the moment, which is several that are known for being in a luxury space that's non-hospitality, but are really interested to translate that into an experiential hospitality club, and that's really fascinating because it's a real privilege you get to learn about them, who are what their values and principles, and then articulate that within a hospitality space. And I think you'll see more, you have seen it, you know, made back a doing a yacht, and there is evidence and owners have got the cafes, and you know, people realise that just as you've just said, when you're with somebody in person, and you know, they've made an effort, they look great, they smell great, they're, they're actually a lot funnier or shorter or taller than you think, but all of those things matter, and people realise that that's becoming a really valuable aspect of life in relationships. And what are people asking you for your advice most on these days? We as a business, we do everything really from, you know, we do the concept with all the information that we've discussed earlier, but we also, you know, we would help select and long list and short list architects and designers and even branding agencies, and we would, you know, sit typically with the client or partner and work through exactly what we're trying to achieve and really own and be accountable for and be faithful to the original vision and concept so that the operation comes through, but we've increasingly been asked to help with fundraising, a capital, which we're very happy to do, that leads into our financial work and our commercial assessments of return models, etc. And we have such in-depth knowledge of how clubs work, what the levers and mechanics of the financial parties, you know, that's quite a specialist skill, and because we have such a broad range across so many different clubs, we're probably much more knowledgeable about this in terms of different club opportunities than clubs that just know how they do it, do it, but we can tailor-make very specific business models for the exact location, the club, the amenities, the target member, etc. It's so interesting that you mentioned that non-hospitality brands are now looking to folks like you with this expertise to get into this kind of hospitality space. And of course, my marketing brain just goes to the customer journey. If you have a financial transaction with someone you've done a good job, ultimately the goal for any transaction is loyalty and retention, you know, a burden the hand. You don't have to spend the money on trying to go get a new client or doing all the marketing and getting to the no-like and trust phase. You've already established all of that. Just have them rinse and repeat and then tell their friends. And so I wonder if that is a component of, you know, engendering that loyalty and having more touch points with your clientele. It just, it sounds genius to me honestly. It's stuck in no brain, right? Like, you know, you can either, you know, send out emails or do marketing campaigns or you can chat to them by them and drink. Right. To someone you already know, you've already interacted with, you've already proven yourself, right? And and that loyalty, you know, as long as you've got the right environment, you've got the right team and you're looking after people correctly, going back to that retention number, you know, great clubs have like single digit, low single digit, you know, attrition rates because people become very fond and affectionate. There's an emotional engagement with the club and the people in the club. That's really valuable. It's precious actually, I think. I would 100% agree. All right, I could talk to you for hours, but I'm going to go into some rapid fire here. Sure. All right. Give me one word that defines great hospitality in your eyes. Pleasure. Oh, okay. Now I need you to say more. Ha ha. Well, great hospitality isn't about technical ability or cost. I think it's about pleasure. And by that, I mean, you can go to, you know, a diner and have a burger and have a really lovely server and it's 12 bucks and it's the best 12 bucks you spent that. day. And equally you can go to a Michelin Star restaurant which you didn't like and actually wasn't very hospitable and you may have spent 10 times the amount of money and great hospitality, hospitality could be a bacon sandwich in a cafe, it could be a great burger, it could be $300,000 holiday to a great resort which you just your whole family will never forget. So the broadest word is pleasure. I love it. What is the most underrated ingredient in community building? A smile. Hmm, that is gold. What is a trend that's overhyped? Must be a food trend I think. I don't know. Yeah, they're all, you know, they all come and go just really good honest well-sourced food. Anything that's trying too hard with food is probably a trend. And what's a trend or maybe not a trend? Something that's underestimated. The demand for wellness and health. Hmm. Integrated into your daily routine, particularly in a club, I think. Very cool. I'm sure we'll see more of that. And what do you think the future of luxury is? I ask a lot of my guests this and luxury is a very broad word. I don't like the word luxury. I think it's so overused, it's become meaningless. And what is luxury? I would say there's a great, there's an anabelle book on anabels, one of the original sort of started in the 60s by a guy called Mark Burley. He was the father of Robin Burley. He's got heart and speed. And in that book, a guy called Cadevid Tang, who was a very famous sort of racon to social hospitality business person. He wrote about anabels in that forward of the book. He said recognition and quick service are irresistible to people. And I think that that's that's really good definition of luxury. Recognition and quick service. That's so succinct. I love that. Yeah, I can't claim it's mine. It's David Tang. But I quote him on that because I think that you walk into place. They know you feel good and then they get you something really quickly. It's like, God, I'm in the right place. Absolutely. But then they don't usher you out very quickly. You can linger if you'd like. Yeah. And you know, this is assuming that it's beautifully designed and it's comfortable. But it's not necessarily about the cotton count on the sheets. You know, these things are important. But I always go to human. You know, anyone can replicate luxury. You can't replicate making something feel great. You can either do that or you can't. I 100% agree. And that brings us back to our central point belonging. What does belonging mean to you? I think belonging is a sense of security and a general warmth and hospitality and friendship. You know, I think we all know those places that maybe our parents took us to and you know, that restaurant or the diner or the gelatirio, whatever it is. And they know you. They know what you like. And there's an nostalgia in belonging as well. And knowing that you can anticipate it. You're looking forward to it. It's a place you look forward to going. That's way too many words for rapid-fire question. But sorry, I'm getting into it now. I love it. I feel like we're just getting warmed up. But I think we're going to wrap it here. Matt, thank you so much. This conversation has been so refreshing and eye-opening. We started with the history of clubs and memberships. And now I have such an insatiable thirst for where this is all going, be it memberships or Gen Z. And it feels like you really have your finger on the pulse. So for anyone who wants to follow Matt and Copper Beaches trajectory, you can find Matt on LinkedIn. He can be found at Copper Beach Consultancy. And he also has a great article that he's quoted in and CNN. I'll put all of these links in the show notes. So thank you again for joining me. I will end this episode as I do each week with my PSA. If you have a furry friend, make sure they are spader-neudered. And if you do not yet, please adopt. Don't shop. Thanks so much for joining another episode of the Hale Effect. See you next week. Bye now. Until next time, stay bold, live with intention, and continue evolving into the most aligned, powerful version of yourself.