The Brendan Sorsby Decision and Sports Gambling, With Jay Bilas

Welcome back to ringer tailgate, the Wednesday edition of the show. I'm your host, Tate Frazier, and we got a jam packed ringer tailgate today. We got a big decision in college football, the Brendan Soresby decision. We're going to talk about all that. An injunction was granted, and now we have a situation where Soresby is right now. Eligible to play in 2026. We'll get into all that. We got a special guest today. Jay Billis is going to join us to help us break down what that means, the ramifications, and beyond. But first and foremost, let's say what's up to our guys, Van Lathen in studio, what's up, Van? What up? What up? What up? I wager that this would be a good show. I'll bet. Yeah. It's going to be a good one. And we also got to say what's up in the Texas Southern shirt. That's right. What's up, man? Good to see you all. Yeah. I'm going to. Yes. You alone too, man. Went there for a pre-K and kindergarten. Yeah. That's right. You told us that. That's right. The lab school. The legends. Lab school pre-K. What was there? What's there, mascot again? We thought we talked about this. They weren't the, like the, the baby. No. I don't even know if they had a mascot. We said they were the kittens, right? I think it was a kid. Maybe it was a kid. That was, that's, the kittens is Southern Latte. Yeah. Oh, that's right. Then you guys had a, yeah. It was a turf war over. That's the mascot again. They're the tigers. Yeah. The tigers. So they're like baby tigers. Yeah. Yeah. Would a baby, would a baby tiger's called? Let me Google that. Kidding. Right? Cause they're cats. Is that a little, little kitten? Yeah. They're going to have a baby tiger's called. They're grown up tigers. No, they're called tigers. Cubs. Yeah. See, Cubs. See, that's cool. You high is. You high is the cubs. And, uh, you know, LSU is the tiger. The motherfucking tiger. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah. The man told us this week, he's a tag war. Um, he combined the jaguar. That's right. Tigers. So I think that's a good place to leave it. Uh, before we get into the show, we talk about this story. Cause we're going to give our thoughts before we get to Jay Billis. I did want to bring up. I had a fan of tailgate reach out to me and point out something with the raise the roof. Now we have been raising the roof throughout the show. Joel Anderson famously invented, raised the roof. Right. And he, uh, let us know that Bob Surah. Uh, if you remember Bobby Surah back from his day in Florida state. Uh, great point to our shooting guard. Remember have a liars. He said that actually Bob Surah was the one who made it popular back in the day, uh, by raising the roof. And he also said that Bob Surah gave credit to Sinbad, the comedian for inventing raised the roof. So now we have a controversy on the show. So Joe, I wanted to get your thoughts on this. Do you, have you ever heard this that Sinbad was somehow the originator of raise the roof. And Bob Surah was the one who made it popular. Not a video, by the way, of Bob Surah back. Uh, I think this is 1996. Look at this. Wait, wait. Down. Wait a year. Let me see it. I can't see the video. 96. That quick. That's after it already caught on. Is a national sensation. Well, he's talking about it. Yeah. I did it in 94. I'm. I did it in 94. So there's, I mean, he joined us at 95 is the 17th pick. But he was in the NBA, uh, obviously the Houston, uh, comments as well, involved in this conversation. But Joel, your reaction to this, you think that he just was following up on your, uh, original. I mean, by that time, raise the roof was starting to take over around the nation. I think the comments had started doing it by then. And you know that it would take it off because the following year is when Luke released the song, raise the roof. Right. So yeah, it took the time. Yeah. Possibly representative Luther Campbell, uh, who also would like to get on the press box, but we were talking about that. So do you consider Bob Surah part of the family of the roof? Like is this? I mean, yeah, he didn't do anything wrong. You're friend. The, uh, your friend. My friend in the tailgate fan. He's a fan. Tailgate fan. Okay. Yeah, man. I, I, I respect that you're a fan of the show, but you, you got your information wrong. I think it's just. I want to, I can make the argument that this guy, uh, is kind of on some whole shit a little bit. Okay. Yeah. He's coming after. It was, it was well established. win Joel and Bennett razor roof right and you come up and talk about some 1996 you're just trying to start a pot. Yeah, man, I'm saying. I think Bob sir or two if Bob sir ever come on the podcast. I don't know why. Like this. Put this out. Bob sir. You ain't on shit. Wow. We should get Bobby Sarah on the show. You know, I covered Bobby sir when he played for the rockets during the team at Yao era. Yeah, that was the lead stage. Those were some rough teams, man, Clarence Weatherspoon, the camping, Matambo, Charlie Ward. I mean, that's right. Charlie Wooden Bob sir played for the rockets at the same time, too, just like they did. That's right. Yeah, man. It was that was some rough basketball, brother. Let me tell you because team act was hurt a lot. And so was Yao. So there was some nice. It just team act was hurt, bro. Yeah, it was hurt. But when they played together, they were pretty frisky team. Yeah, it's a great one if an NBA history like you, Mac and Yao are healthy. I mean, they were really good. I covered, I covered that trade, man. And the thing is I thought that the rockets were giving up on Steve Francis and casino mobility a little early because they had played the Lakers to five games in the first round of the playoffs. But they were, it was a really competitive series. And you can just see, hey, man, they tweak this roster a little bit. If you have the things we can roll with that core, but it's kind of like the similar thing right now, like when we brought in Kevin Durant and kind of moved on with our young court, I'm just like they, they went, they thought they could, you know, immediately supersized the team and get things going and could be a championship content and just didn't work out because they got older, older guys that kind of on the downside of their careers. I do think the rockets have short promises. Yeah, he did. I mean, he was a little bit older. He was a jukego guy. Yeah. One year Maryland. You know, he got injured not long after that. But I really do think he was so heartbroken about leaving Houston. So was good. You know, like they mean they talk about it about how like, how difficult the next few couple of years were for them because they would, they consider themselves a family and they were really close. They mean, you know, it was a, it was a real thing. And I, I sure I can understand, being Steve Francis and early 2000s in Houston, being mad. He was somewhere else. Oh, man, bro, Houston loves Steve Francis, man, I love Steve Francis. I have two. Those are the best jerseys. By the way, they just redid the rocket jerseys. I'm like, why can't you bring back the blood pain stripes with the rockets on it? I mean, they're so good. It's crazy because people hated that one that came in. That was the, those were the uniforms that started using after they won the championships. And so they changed it all to do that little blue thing. And now people love it again. But yeah, it, yeah. Steve Francis, you had a great career though. Yeah, five time all NBA first team three time all defensive first team. Wow, the first thing I didn't know that five time first team. I didn't know that. Yeah, I just made all of that shit up. Yeah, I was good. I mean, I was like, what the three time NBA all five time first three time NBA all star rookie of the year, all rookie first team. And a great points per game average for his career average around 18 points of game scored about 10,000 points. Play it. Play around 89 years. Steve Francis. Great career. He went to high school right up the road for me, man. What gum rebalair. That's right. That's right. Right around here in Montgomery County. Yeah, shout out. Steve Francis is how I first found out about sauce walker. Oh, sauce. Yeah, okay. Yeah, the walker. What the sauce twins back in the day. Yeah, like Steve Francis team's these stories. Yeah, it's man sauce sauce is really it's making me kind of sad. How he's going out right now, man, just sauce walker. Yeah, man, he's got this beef with drag. Why? Man, I think sauce walker's baby mama started messing with Drake. And of course, you know, because that's what Drake does. He likes to fuck with rappers girls and put it in their face. And so he did that. And so like sauce is like, I mean, been mad about it and been talking about it for like the last 15 years. And anyway, I saw them interview this young lady on every big TSU guy. He likes to find. Oh, he does like he does like, I mean this. But wait, what was that guy? He was saying that the baby mama, I think her name is Kylie. She went on no different. No jumper would add on 22. And hearing her talk made me feel bad for both of them. I was like, this is embarrassing, man. Like you guys why what was embarrassing? I mean, she just sounded really shallow and stupid. And I was just okay. Yeah, so I'll give you a the source word for that vapid vapid. That is a good word. Let's see. Good word. So why why that why that makes you feel bad for sauce walker. Because I mean, he's pining for this woman. And he had a baby with her. And I don't know what kind of person sauce walker is, but he presents himself as a cool ass nigga from Houston. That's what I believe him to be. And he's got this girl that he's, you know, apparently stealing over over just Drake shit. And he's kind of trying to call out Drake and she, I mean, she made some allegations about him that he was broke and that he had her ask Drake for money and all this other stuff. It just made him seem sad. And I was like, even if that's not true, even if these are sort of lies, the fact that you have to co parent with this woman is a sad reflection on how things went and the Drake was so interested in this woman that it was that it caused a beef. It just made me a little sad, man, you know. But I mean, Drake's dissing everybody on ice man. So maybe getting dissed on the album is a good thing. I mean, I probably I mean, people did. Obviously Kendrick Lamar. And the Kendrick thing I guess came from Baby Keem's like girl that Drake went after so that was like a I mean Dramat Drake goes after them all and I mean as I think the thing is If I was and I have a home boy he's like Pokemon of rap. He's like I gotta catch them all I have a home boy who's just like if I was Drake I would do it just like that He go out I'm gonna go out to my old legends like JLo remember he he went out to JLo When after Madonna went after Madonna and he's just knocking down you know his favorite porn stars And then that he might mix in he might mix in your girl. He might mix in your girl It's part of some of home boy was like if I was rich, I would be just like that. That's exactly the way I would want to do it So Billy's back by the way, he said Joel was the Drake of Twitter. What do you talk everybody? Okay, Billy You do as a Houston native though You're saying right now that you're disappointed in sauce walker and that you feel like Drake is fucking over sauce walker That's what you're saying. Yeah, I feel I feel I feel bad that this is playing itself out in public because it reveals His baby mama to be a vapid person and that the idea that he might be pining over her or Engaged in a almost 15 years long beef with Drake over this woman is a really depressing state of affairs I wish it was better for Damn tough Maybe the longest beef of Drake's career Long time. It's been going on 15. It's been going on since 2011 salsa versus Drake I don't know if it's been going on that long. Yeah, man. Yeah, man listen to the no jumper clip man because I was Yeah, and I was saying damn this goes back that far But I mean, which suggests to me that kid must be damn near I mean just imagine being in high school, you know And this is the ship that's going on between your father and mom in Drake was making Houston music back Then you know, I mean he got me. He moved he moved to Houston not to like bought a house down in the area outside of Houston People love Houston, man. People do they like to go down there So it's not the same city that I remember. Okay. I mean Houston was just a cool ass city when I was coming up Like, you know, like we just like to ride top-down raise the room the lean thing You know, so I wouldn't end the lean, but it was just about oh we trying to cool up like that's that's our joint You know what I'm saying and now I feel like and I was saying this to somebody and I was like I mean, I'll pitch this story to the ringer, but My wife was like they probably won't write it But I was like I feel like now people go to Houston to embrace their inner negative You know, I see all this like these clips coming out of clothes You think the ring is gonna let that be the lead. Yeah, I don't think that's probably gonna happen She was like maybe you ought to work on that that idea a little bit more before you pitch it But I'm putting it out there just to case somebody's interested Well, if you if you can't write it you can preach it on this show. Yeah, that's right. So this is yeah, this is all for me. He's like He he dropped a song called whack-to-wack back in the day Oh That was in the middle of Drake's meek-mill beef so he was just trying to get involved He's like anytime Drake's making a song. He's like I got to get involved here. I got to get tangled up Man, this song's walk. I fuck with Drake man. Hey man sauce walker had a great song was with Benny the butcher man Is that the one that I'm thinking about Joe who's your joe? Who's your favorite artist in Houston outside of Beyonce? My favorite art. Oh Scarface. No question. Okay. I think Scarface won the best rep as all time man. I mean I'm Drake I'll call you Drake now. Do you count? Do you count UGK as being a Houston group? See I didn't until like the 2000s because there's a real divided. I mean nobody from Houston Now I have homeboys that have family in Port Arthur, but like nobody there considers themselves part of Houston And we definitely don't consider them part of Houston But it wouldn't until people started blowing up or whatever and then it's like and then I you know Bunt B lives in Houston now - so For a long time. Yeah, I mean, I saw I saw him in a Mexican restaurant once done So if you if you could if you if you count Bunt B and UGK then is UGK, but I don't I don't know if you really do you count them as a Houston that's Port Arthur Now I do now I do so if I'm making a Houston mixtape or Houston playlist like I sometimes do on Spotify I'm throwing them on there because they remind me a Houston and I were when they were break You know when they became a big deal like 91 92 I know most of the country didn't hear them until big pimping, but tell me something good played on the radio top 77 Every night for like a year When UGK first came out And she scratched me on my booty Not everybody in the world know that your sister is a nasty little girl. All right, people say thing good Yeah, man, that shit was my heart, don't yeah DJ screw as well Sauce Walker did a song with Conway the machine dangerous darencher that that shit is fire It came out like about a year ago. This is kind of sauce walk his dream right now that we're like giving him his uh Oh, we just I'm glad van brought him up man, cuz yeah, he you know I clearly It's a part of times that they fighting over Kylie Klossen dark knows before we get it Yeah, before we get into the story the week just quickly NBA Finals are happening right now We got a game that is happening later on tonight just uh any finals thoughts any big takeaways anything We've learned from the NBA Finals are you guys locked in are you watching uh Joel? I mean, I'll go to you first. Oh, yeah I mean, I've been watching this is the most basketball I've watched all year your spurs hate was a seething when we talked about it before last week Yeah, I mean also, I think I don't agree with Jacobi, right? But I do wow another show in No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, listen, I don't I don't hate winby because that is a really strong reaction And I respect winby in the kind of like person the kind of dignified Persona that he wants to project the people like being a decent person and an interesting and intellectual person Promoting that as a persona is not bad to me, especially in the time that we live in but I got to say man Doing the shit that he did and against uh, who was it that he hit with the elbow and uh Uh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, the elbow the elbow the thunder series elbow was the mind I even been the thunder that was before the thunder was it before then yeah Yeah, that was the season four. He had some questionable. Yeah, it's some host shit, man. I don't like that. I don't he all need to do that He doesn't need to do that somebody else on his team can be the dirty guy or whatever, but I just think a lot of people are trying to beat him up a little bit So I think it's reacting from that, but yes, that's some shit dark So you kind of are on Jacobi's side. You don't hate him, but you're on his side of the line. Yeah, well he said he hates them I'm not that's you know, I have a much your anti your anti-wimpy your anti-wimpy I'm anti-spers in Accordingly, I'm anti-wimpy certainly right now. Also, I'm just gonna put this out here right now and then van Do you tell us what you think about so you tell us by the way? No, I'm in the symbols. Yeah, in the symbols. Okay Um, oh man, LSU guy by the way Yeah, that's right. That's right. Yeah, uh van any finals takes It's been a fantastic NBA finals not particularly well played in terms of shooting percentages and all of that, but really well competed Um, very dramatic basketball very dramatic one of the best finals in a while. I'm looking forward to the game tonight Yeah, me too I hope the next skin uh, you know get it together. I think they're a little bit I mean, it's a big moment in msg, but it was cool to see msg in that environment We have not seen that for quite some time only once in my lifetime. So it's fun to see you again. Oh, yeah, man I think it's been I thought it was great. It looked like a amazing atmosphere except everyone on the streets man Yeah, you know, I think it just you know, what it could have been Around this arena was you know, stunted because you know the president had to bring his ass there But they're doing the same protocols forget I know it's just without them there it it stinks man But I mean, you know what, you know, you know, on the other hand, I saw videos and beaten up motherfuckers and spurs Yeah, he's jumping them. I hate yeah, I don't I don't like that. So maybe you know, maybe they earned it after that one Yeah, we'll see what happens. Gonna be a fun finals. Let's get to its story of the week. We're gonna do our one big reaction Britain and sores being case you missed a granite in injunction versus the NCAA He is eligible to play in 2026 a Texas Texas court court scheduled um, a trial on February 8th, 2027 And if you're doing the math there that is about two weeks after the CFP national championship game will be played and lost Vegas So that is a very timely date um for you know, the you know, court date to be played out, but again, um van your first reaction when you saw the news Terrible terrible terrible news terrible news Uh but terrible Actually, you know what Really deeply disappointing news, uh, I feel like the outrage behind this is is warranted Uh I'm I'm starting to understand a little bit more where I sit in terms of my opinions on college football college sports You know as they uh as they stand overall Bringing sores be broke to me one of the most sacred rules of sports period And that sounds corny and it sounds stupid and it sounds like something that you you know that's lives in antiquity, but Gambling is one thing people have gambling problems gambling and betting on your own team Is to me Something that should meet the swiftest harshest penalties that one can go through and I just don't understand how we are supposed to maintain a respect for the competitive integrity of any sport, if you can gamble on your own team. If you can gamble on your own team, and we talk about this all the time, like I just saw the President Trump say something that Kowshi numbers go through the roof, and that's because he can look at the action on the Kowshi numbers and say the thing that is on the cow, it's just, to me, all of this stuff is disgusting, but this particular part of it was an opportunity to set some sort of standard about what will be acceptable from these young men, young people, people, period as it relates to gambling, and it just didn't happen. The judge took it upon himself, they missed. Now you have somebody who gambled a bunch of times, gambled on his own team, and basically we'll get a slap on the wrist. Me and Jay Billis was on later on, we'll have a difference about whether or not-- - The spirited debate. - A spirited debate about whether or not the NCAA still has another rounded chamber here, but I don't know, man, I saw this, and honestly, it kind of made me sick. - That was the reaction of pretty much everybody universally. I mean, you saw people that disagree on everything coming together to say that they were upset about this. We had athletic departments and ADs responding. They're, I mean, it's like the scarlet letters of college sports right now with Texas Tech. A lot of people are saying we shouldn't play them. Joe, your reaction when you saw the news. - So yeah, regular listeners of the tailgate might know that last week I came on this show, and I sort of backtracked on my initial belief that the judge should be lenient on SourceB, because I'm a bleeding heart wokes to, who doesn't believe anybody should ever face consequences for anything. I'd open every cell in Attika, you know what I mean? But what I, and so, and I did say last week that there are a few bright lines of sports, and one of them is that you can't be on your own team. Sports leagues have rules about this for a reason. And I had sympathy for Brendan, 'cause I'm like, yo, I hope he could beat his addiction to gambling, and I hope, you know, he can get past this. - Literally $90,000 that he has put down in gambling and bets over the years. - Yeah, and you know, last week, like I said, that's not the NCAA's problem, like they should be able to do it. But so, so then comes the ruling Monday for this visiting judge out of Fort Worth. Because people keep saying this is a love, it does judge and love it. - No, it's a visiting judge who's-- - It was originally. - I think people just didn't realize that they were doing it for themselves. - Yeah, judge for Cruz themselves. So, right. And so people feel like the future of the game has been in peril, no greater threat to the viability of the NCAA and college football than this one judge and one jurisdiction saying, you know, NCAA, you say that athlete welfare is part of your mission and banning a suspending Brendan Soresby would cause him probable imminent or irreparable injury. And he's like, nah. He's like, you guys could do that if you hold him out. But so I've got to order this temporary injunction. And so it all sort of led me back to my initial feelings about the case, which is that everyone will be fine if Brendan Soresby plays this fall. And you know how I know that? There have been so many gambling scandals happening in college sports over the past few years. They have actually implicated the outcomes of games. You have watched games possibly that were the players were conspiring to either lose or manipulate the game in some way. And you all ain't say a shit about what you think the integrity of the game was. You said right down there in March and April and why the NCAA tournament and nobody was like, man, just in January, the federal prosecutor's charge 20 people impacted about 29 games across 17 programs like Abelene Christian, Alabama State, all these schools and that was two months before the big dance that the federal prosecutors came out. And I didn't hear anybody say, man, how can I be sure that these games are on the level? I mean, it literally two months before when Alabama baseball coach in 2003 was found to be betting against his team. - 2023. - Yeah, 2023. - Yeah. - betting against his team. Nobody came back and was like, - He's in pharmaceutical sales now, I believe. - Yeah, that's right. - Yeah, what happened to him? - Yeah. - He got fired. No, but listen, but that doesn't mean, that doesn't, but the thing is, the impact of the game, the games were being manipulated already, the game, I'm sorry, I hate to break it to you all. There have guys on the take right now. There are guys manipulating games right now in college basketball, professional sports. It happens all the time and you still watch the games and believe in the integrity of the game. So I refused to believe that because Brendan Soresby got in trouble and got caught, but the judge said, you know what, I haven't decided on this case, but I'm awake, I'm awake a few months, but I'm gonna allow you to play this season. And you know what I'm thinking? The Michigan sign gate, which actually speaks to the product on the field, right? Like they were unethical about the way they carried themselves out on the field. It actually affects the guys out there playing and nobody was like the integrity of football is in stake here. How can I be sure that Michigan versus Purdue is on the level? So I'm just sorry that I refused to believe that you all believe this, that's college sports is can't come back from this. This is the worst thing to have in a college sports. Get the fuck out of here. Grow up, the games are being manipulated right now. I promise you, there's somebody out there right now they haven't caught. - Like I understand I get Joe's perspective, but I've actually never understood it. I've never understood it because like Joe talked about, he said he'd open up all the sales in Attica. And I know a lot of people who actually are abolitionists, right? And when you listen to them talk about abolition, they talk about all kinds of structures and frameworks under which abolition works, right? Talk about really whether or not they actually believe that you should just open up all the prisons and jails and let people out. And even if you did what that would look like, what it would look with some of the people who, some of the child molesters that Joe would open up Attica for, would they go back into neighborhoods or would those people go into mental health facilities? Would they go to some place, like there's a lot to it. And a lot of times the reason why I bring that up is because sometimes we talk about these issues and we talk about them in drastically and in binaries and like, and he's really desperate terms. Everybody knows that people are cheating in sports. No one, no one, no one has any illusion that people are cheating in sports, okay? - Really? - I feel like people are surprised. - Yeah. - No, no, no, no. - They would frame it as a competitive edge, you know? - No, no, no one, no one who think, I watch Greg Maddox talk about a couple of days ago. This is crazy pitch that Greg Maddox through where the ball breaks, crazier than his normal shit 'cause his normal shit was breaking crazy anyway. But the ball just, voop, voop. And Greg Maddox goes, that was a scuffed ball, right? So that he got a scuffed ball and he took the scuffed ball and he wanted to keep using the ball that was scuffed to make his two-seamer break like that until the umpire saw the ball and took the ball away. Greg Maddox, one of the best pieces of all time, saw an opportunity to influence the game, he took it. I think people understand that that's happening, depending on what you think is cheating. I know that that's happening. Well, we know that that's happening. The guy you're talking about from Alabama, what you're saying right now, I know he was affecting the game. If he was still coaching there, I think a lot of people would have a problem with that. I think if he was still coaching there, I think a lot of people will go, well, how could you have somebody coaching that is betting on games and influencing the games in that way, right? I think if he was doing that for his own personal financial game or like whatever was going on as far as the betting situation is concerned, I think that would be the issue. That would be the outrage. The presence of rules does not mean that they are not going to be broken, right? And the fact that rules are broken doesn't mean that rules aren't valuable. I'm not in a position or at a point in my life where I want to make somebody suffer for a mistake for their entire life. But there are things to be learned from mistakes and there are greater ecosystems and cultural norms to be upheld from people learning from mistakes or having consequence. Not wanting to throw somebody in jail or give them the death penalty is different than living in a world that's completely free of consequence because consequence is important for a social construct to be maintained. And we can have all kinds of different conversations about what is appropriate. We can have all kinds of different conversations about what is draconian. But what happened? What this guy did, what this kid did, what this young man did, is it right? And he should be forced to learn that lesson about what is appropriate and acceptable in the culture that he is choosing to be a part of. Nobody is making Brendan Soares be playful ball. Nobody is making him go out there to do that. He should be responsible and be held to a standard if he wants to participate. We can throw as many straw men out there and we can have as many conversations about who did, what win and why. But right now, this motherfucker bent on his team and he should not be allowed to play in C.A. football. That should be a part of the lesson that he learned. - Yeah. - I mean, he may learn that lesson. I mean, this is still to be determined. And look, man, I agree with you. I'm not saying that I think. and sores we should play. But I also think that the outrage around this is, and I hate to be the outrage police, 'cause I think it just happens to be a very clear, the public sentiment clearly seems to be with Brendan Sores being needs to sit out for you. I think most people, even me, would say, I don't think that's an unfair penalty, but it didn't happen and it might not. But there's no such thing as living in a world free of consequence, because you know what? You can't be a player in guarantee that if you do it, that you're gonna go in, that first of all, that anybody else is gonna want you, is that you're gonna get in front of a judge who's also willing to make a similar ruling, understanding what the national outrage is around right now. So I'm just thinking, I just don't think this sets any sort of precedent. I think the people need to, I understand people being upset about it, but I really, I just can't believe that many people act with they sit down and think about it, are actually concerned about the integrity of the game, because you're watching games all the time, and you just said it, Ben, they know the games are being manipulated. So how seriously are you really concerned about the integrity of the game? If you even watch it knowing, these fans know, hey man, somebody out here might be on the take, but also I had one other thing to say. I wanna make them allow the players to form a collective bargaining agreement, the form of the union and sign a CBA with them. And that is how you prevent this from happening and being an issue going forward. - And that's how the NCAA stays viable. I mean, it's so obvious, they just do it. - The issue's right there in your face. The answer is right there. You can do it. You've never tried to work on it. So I don't think you really care that much. - Absolutely, zero problem with it, zero problem with it. All of these things are separate issues from what it is that we're talking about. If you think that it doesn't matter, cool, fine. If you think that this doesn't matter, cool, fine. I think personally, the people who are outraged over this decision, number one, are adhering to what they believe, like once again, like the argument of everybody is doing it, I never liked that argument. Everybody is cheating on that. Everybody is game in the IRS. Everybody is ripping stocks. Everybody, like 2008 financial crisis. Everybody got a golden parachute to fly around. Everybody's doing so, no, it's fucked up. It's fucked up. And I'm not precious or moral. And I do not try to moralize as I look at me, get one of these windows off this computer right now. Like I'm not moralized or do we need that stuff? That's not what I'm doing. But what I'm saying is right here, four sports, four, what we're talking about, why we come to this, you should not involve in gambling on your team. You should not. You should not be able to do that. It opens up a Pandora's box. And by the way, you know that that pan, you know that that Pandora's box has been opened because we've seen it over time. We've seen it over time, particularly with gambling, with players being involved in gambling scandals, what happened, what organized crime was able to get to players, what happened when gambling exploded and became a big deal. You saw scandal after scandal after scandal after scandal. And in a situation like this, the reason why people react this way is to try to put a cap, even if it's culturally Joe, even if it's intellectually, even if it's rhetorically, even if it's just how we feel and what we accept on this type of behavior. And to say that it's meaningless that you can do something and get away with it with absolutely no penalty, to me is just like it's incredibly glib and weird. - Welcome to the American Justice System, guys. Sometimes judges make judgments that are totally, that seem totally incoherent and crazy. Sometimes juries come back with verdicts that we disagree with. I'm a black man in America, I understand. Welcome to America, guys. Sometimes a judge does it something you don't agree with. - So then why are you advocating for it in this regard? - But you know what? - But you know what? - But that doesn't even make any sense. - No, no, no, no, no, no, no. - If you know, let me say why are you advocating for it in this regard? - I'm not advocating for it, but I'm just saying like, then why are you guys acting so surprised? Like why is people acting like Brendan Soresby has crossed the Rubicon of some shit like that? And I mean, I think, and it doesn't mean, he did, you are a fool. If you think that, oh, Brendan Soresby got away with it, I'm this shit. Let me put a little something on it and I'm a good way with it too. It's just like, I got off for a DUI in Dallas. There's a mean that the person can get off with a DUI in Lubbock. Like it's like, we understand that like sometimes - Not you personally, you're saying as an example. - Yeah, right. And I should, I should need to shout out Jody Balsam at the Brooklyn Law School and my boy Fritz Messenger and he's a sports gambling attorney in New Orleans who helped me with some of this. But like, they were the ones who said, look, this ruling is not binding. Any court is free to agree it. They don't have to agree with it. And they probably won't. And even this case will probably be, there will probably overturn this or whatever. So again, I just think it's a much to do about nothing. Sorry. - Well, this is what I'll say about that. I understand what you're with your friends who are talking about and as far as the legal situation, I'm sure that they're right. I will say this though, that while this particular type of case is not binding, what has become a very prevalent and what has become a trend is judges coming in and local judges coming in and overriding the NCAA based upon what the NCAA thinks are the rules that they have for their athletes. So while your guys are talking about something that they can individualize and say, this might not happen again with gambling. This might not happen again with whatever. It is happening over and over again and there is a trend line there and that trend line has now led to, at first it was, you can't play for 19 years. At first it was, you can't be 47. At first it was, now it is, you can gamble on your own team. So go back to your home. - People are already doing it. - So go back to your homies and tell them that sure, while we might not get, but this trend of local judges coming in saying this organization, however fucked up and terrible it is, cannot maintain what they think is a competitive ecosystem in their sport and that somebody can get brought from somewhere else, sit on a bench and say, no, you can gamble on your squad and then go play. - That is. - Too bad, too bad. - Over and over and over again. - Too bad. - Stop not just sports. If you don't believe me, I'm sorry. - Like I'm gonna live, but the whole, there's a weirdness to this that I don't understand. Yeah, this is a deal, this is a deal. Is it the biggest deal? Is it the end of me watching college football? No, but why in the fuck would we act like, this is okay and this is not a thing? - Nobody's fucking. - This is okay. - Nobody's playing. - It's okay, it's okay. - Like nobody's saying it's okay. So what I'm saying is this is fucked up. What happened is fucked up. Now, Sores B, look, I will say this. When you read this and you look at the way Sores B is being treated, there's also something else here if you want to really get into it. Joe, there's a tremendous amount of privilege. A tremendous amount of privilege. - Yeah, sure. - That Brendan Sores B is operating with in this particular situation. - I understand. - Brendan Sores B, like if you, since we're here, Brendan Sores B is being infant, infantile, I can never say that word, what is it? - Infantileized. - Infantileized. - Infantile, okay. - I'll say this again. - Brendan Sores B is being infantilized. Brendan Sores B, who is a 23 year old man, right? 22 or 23, right? He's being treated like a babe straight out of the womb. No idea what the fuck was going on. It needs all of this help and support and all of this to get over the fact that he fucked up. If this was Jaden Wilson, McSores B, or if this was daring, you would see a different way that people even come to this story. And I know that everybody's gonna get pissed off when I'm saying that, but even this, with the billionaire money that's behind him, with the huge Texas Tech investment that's behind him, with the way that guys like Brendan Sores B are treated when they fucking do crimes. When they do the thing that is the thing that you're not supposed to do. When they do it, the way they're treated after that is another thing that if you wanna get all political with, is indicative of a clear bias in American sports culture. That is also true. So what I'm saying is, for all of this stuff, I don't fucking get it. I don't think it's right from the competition standpoint. I don't think it's right from the standpoint of who Sores B is and what Texas Tech is doing, I think the rules should be the same for everyone. - Yeah, I mean, it comes back to just when I was growing up and my mama would say, son, you can't do what they do. Or when I say to the coaches, you know, they're gonna fire your black ass, I understand the reality of the situation. The Brendan Sores B is able to, No I'm not, no I'm not, no I'm not, no I'm not, no I'm not, no I'm not, no I'm not, no I'm not, no I'm not with the protect protect college sports act and let the kids unionize you'll never have to deal with it again You can make your own rules and then the kids can be like they'll sign up and if they do the shit They'll be out you'll never have to worry about it again You'll never have to be concerned about the integrity of the game because they'll be the power to do something about it Yes, so advocate for that if you really care about it. Yeah, completely completely on completely on your side Well, when I'm saying with with that nothing to do with the fuck what we're talking about right now Has to do with this particular case so yeah, I get I get what you saying right like I wanted to just give an example from the past To kind of talk about just how like normalized we've kind of gotten with that space in general 2003. Let's take us back Rick new Heisel head coach of the Washington football team at the time was in a gambling pool for the NCAA tournament Totally different sport. I remember that and it came out that he was in this pool was like a neighborhood pool, right? And he was asked about it from the administration. He said he's not in the pool Come to find out he was in the pool He was given the ultimate and right to resign and if he stayed he would get a two-year show call So we went from like being in a gambling pool for the NCAA tournament Which most people wouldn't even think of as a gambling 20 bucks in on the NCAA tournament to a two-year show calls to now betting $90,000 on games is a two-game suspension Right, so like that's how normalize just to give an example in 20 years how far we've gone Do you really think the source is gonna play this year? Yeah, he's gonna play But I think I think he's gonna play this year because We're losing where look if the point if the if the if the thing is it was never that big of a deal anyway fine What is a big deal? I'm sick. I'm so sick of having conversations about what is a big deal Like I just I just like it's We are we live in such a varied Uh and multifaceted society that what is a big deal to me? It's probably not going to be a big deal to you. What is a big deal to you? It's probably not going to be a big deal to me. I don't What I do though what I do have an issue with is us getting together And understanding that compliance with commonly held rules That is the way I deal with societal fairness. I don't want anything more than anyone else But if it goes for me then it goes for you And if it goes for you then it goes for me And so it's to get that that's a stupid thing to actually It's not a stupid thing it's not a stupid thing but what but what I will say is that's the best I can fucking do and this is fucked up Okay, is it something about it happening? There's something you can do about it. I got there's a there's a really easy It's it may be logistically challenging in a lot of different ways, but there's a way To get it that into there is an actionable item there is an action item that you can do and you can advocate for So that so you the world you want to see exist can exist Until then if if you really precious about the results of the games you can freeful free not to watch them Or whatever just to accept the reality that's all I'm saying Yeah, well, let's see what Jay bill is saying. We got Jay bill is he's going to join us right now We're going to talk more about this sorcery situation. He's going to give us obviously he's the lawyer He's got some legal insights and he's been one of the people that has talked about some of these issues with the NCAA for quite some time So right after this we're going to have Jay bill is join us and we're going to have another spirited conversation about bringing source All right as promised at the top of the show to give us some expert analysis. We are bringing in ESPN's very own Jay bill is to join us to talk about this Sores be decision and the ramifications of said decision Jay. Thanks so much for joining the show man My pleasure thanks around me. Of course. We got a lot of questions to kind of work through here But first and foremost just your initial reaction when you saw the news come out I know there was kind of a shock and all and we don't get really unified responses in college force But it did seem like a very unified response from you know all different parties everyone kind of came together to show their frustration here. What was your thought when you saw this? I was surprised, but not shocked This kind of thing happens not necessarily in this sort of case. This is a case of first impression As far as I know there haven't been a lot of gambling cases where A player you know sort of accused of operating in the gambling space especially you know on his own sport and on so to my understanding on his own team Would sue the NCAA in a local court local state court Um, but you know the NCAA loses these cases from time to time on a lower court level and they usually When it deals with some of their rules They went on appeal and giving example Charles Betty Ako earlier this year at Alabama The player who had played at Alabama went into the NBA draft and get drafted played in the G league and then came back Well, he won an injunction to be able to play and played like three games and then it got overturned on on appeal by the NCAA And similar to the source because You know, they're they're like I'm not trying to cast a spurtons on anyone when I say this but but you know Everybody's got their hair on fire over this you know like relax the games aren't till august And he's not going to play in the first two of this injunction holds anyway So there's plenty of time for the appeal of this ruling and my sense is once it gets to the three judge panel by understanding It's as an amarylo texas a three judge panel. It'll hear an expedited appeal My sense is it gets overturned But it's just one case and you know with regard to this one player I mean if say just for argument say The the temporary injunction is not overturned. It's upheld on appeal and the kid gets to play He's still got to win a trial and you know that may obviate the need for a trial Maybe he dismisses the case if he plays the season it doesn't go to trial the trial scheduled for February my understanding Um, but it's not like every college players can go okay now I can beat Pete Rose It's not that big of a deal and uh and you know the big 10 saying we're not going to play texas tech in any sport like come on man Like it's so you're going to what you're going to your cross-country runners can't run against texas tech what they do wrong I mean you're everybody need to step back a little bit let the process play out. It's not that big of a deal Am I to understand that you think that there's been an overreaction to this and you don't see this as being a Like a huge thing at all just before I ask my next question Yeah, so so this particular ruling doesn't have value as precedent It's not that other courts and other states Have to go by this ruling and say hey wait a minute but judge in in loving texas Um now the original judge had to recuse himself or chose to recuse himself because I think he went to texas tech And so they had a retired judge that they have procedures there when someone recuses a judge or your accuses himself Um, so it's not like other courts. It's not like a supreme court ruling United States Supreme Court where every book every court now has to follow that precedent Uh under starry texas. They don't have to do that. So it's it's really not that big of a deal And look, I'm not saying it's small and it's not jarring Uh, and I don't agree with it But what what it shows is you know the NCAA is vulnerable now They used to get deference from the courts, but because their rules have been so screwed up for so long And they've had so many missteps and laxively, you know, lack of leadership for so long Um, they're not getting the same treatment in the courts They're just like every every other business right now and they got to they got approved their right And there's no collective bargaining agreement for them to rely upon here Um, so you know, they got beat here and they were going up against Jeffrey Kessler who never loses and never loses to them They should know that by now, but but that all that said Um, and look, I don't know how to predict basketball games let alone predict what a court's going to do But my sense is as this has a very good chance of being overturned on appeal Do you think that it's important that players in any sport be it the NCAA excuse me, NCAA football, basketball, baseball Uh, the professional leagues Do you think it's important to set a red line for uh, an athlete gambling on their own team absolutely I do uh, and I think that's a pretty simple thing and I make the uh Comparison if you will just say in like look alcohol drinking alcohol is legal if you're 21 in the United States But it's not legal to drive while you're intoxicated. That's pretty bright line and it's really not that hard And look if if source B were gambling on you know, US open golf and tennis I don't think people get that worked up over it. I think it's probably a pretty good idea that athletes avoid Uh, gambling on sports period um, I don't think they should do it. I don't think coaches should do it I don't think administrators who work in athletics should do it and I don't think officials should do it Um, but the officials have a you know, usually have agreements that that uh state that Um, and the players have the rules like to me. This is not that not that uh, complicated and uh, and I you know in this instance I support the NCAA. I think they're right And they're judgment to say look you cross this line and I'm sensitive to the you know, gambling addiction argument and the mental health argument I'm sensitive to that and empathetic But that doesn't mean that um That there shouldn't be a sanction for it Uh, I think every player knows what they can and can't do And I don't care how young these players are Whether they're 18 or 22 or 27 Uh, they know they're not supposed to do it and once you cross that line I think it's okay for this particular sanction. I actually support it. But but that and and and that being said, there is a contradiction involved in college and professional sports because all of these entities are in bed with gambling companies, whether it's draft king, you name it, and I'm not casting this version like gambling companies, but holy cow, like it's embedded in our society. And I think I'm okay with it being legal. I don't have any argument about legal gambling. I think it's fine. I would rather have it above board than kind of in the dark where it used to be because now if there's any sort of point shaving activity and I don't think there's much of that stuff, but it does happen, they find out about it right away. They work in tandem with law enforcement agencies. They're the ones that sniff it out. It's not like the FBI is tapping phones and finding all this out. The gambling companies alert them to it. So there's some positives to it as well. - Jay, and I was just for clarity, say, you've been saying that you think there'll be an expedited hearing. Do you think that's gonna happen before week one of the regular season or is that just gonna be an expedited hearing that will happen before the scheduled trial? - No, I think it all happens. I think it will happen before the season. Yeah, I think that's gonna go relatively quickly. It's not, you know, I think the court will look favorably upon the time issue of year and try to decide the appeal of this temporary injunction or preliminary injunction, however you want to term it, because in order to get a preliminary injunction or temporary injunction, you have to show a likelihood of success on the merits of trial. I'm hard pressed to figure out how source he's gonna win a trial, I don't think he would. And you gotta show a reputable harm. I think that's fairly easy to show that, you know, if this goes to trial and he can't play, it turns out he wins, you know, then what difference does it make? His career's over, you know, that he misses a season, that kind of thing, but also there's a component of these injunctions that say, you know, you can't do anything, it's gonna be against public policy. And I can't imagine it's good public policy to, you know, say it's okay to gamble on your sport when your sport expressly prohibits it. To me, that violates public policy, but, you know, reasonable minds may be able to differ on that, I don't know. - And Jay, it is fascinating because you mentioned the NCAA, you're on their side in this case, and you've been one of the people that is, you know, kind of pointed out the hypocrisy with the NCAA, with the rules, and you have been a big proponent of the CBA, and if they did have a CBA in place, at least my understanding is, if they went to court, right, they would have like what could they'll have with the flake gate when they went after him, and they were like based on the CBA, he actually has the right to make this call because of the CBA. So the NCAA did have that with the players, they would actually have more power and more autonomy in this situation. So is this like a rant, like a world where this leads to a conversation where we actually do have a CBA, so we can avoid this in the future, like is that something that could actually lead to some positive change? - It could, but rather than look at it that way, my belief is the NCAA is looking at this by saying, hey, Congress, look at this, this is why we need this most recent, you know, Senate proposed bill in the law, so we can have an anti-trust exception and we can do whatever we want. And to me, that's the exact wrong way to go about this. You know, like to me, Congress giving the NCAA an anti-trust exemption, it's like a bank robber saying, hey, every time I break into the bank, I get arrested and charged, holy cow, like I'm tired of facing all, you know, going into court every time I break into a bank. So going to Congress and saying, hey, give me, you know, give me a law that allows me to do this. And Congress says, you know, good idea, we want to eliminate all this legal action against you. So bank robber, here are the keys to the bank, you don't have to break in anymore. Like, that's what they'd be doing by giving the NCAA an anti-trust exemption. And so your point on the CBA or ACBA, if I'm the NCAA, what I ask Congress for is something reasonable. I say, give us a federal pathway to collective bargaining. Because right now, there are some hurdles to collective bargaining. There are public and private institutions. You got all these different conferences. The players don't really have any one entity that could represent them right now. I mean, there's the National Collegiate Players Association. There are things that could do it. But it's not without hurdles. And Congress could give them that. The other thing Congress could do is Congress could exempt all college athletes and future college athletes from the National Labor Relations Act and from the Fair Labor Standards Act. And then athletes could sign multi-year contracts with schools and schools could pay them directly and they wouldn't be employees. Where they could sign as independent contractors. Because the incidentally, for some reason, is definitely afraid of the players being employees. Where I don't understand the problem. I mean, I went to Duke. Duke's got 30,000 employees. You don't think they could absorb another 500 and figure it out, but they could. And not all the athletes would they want to sign to multi-year contracts. But that's what Congress should be looking at. Not at handing a serial anti-trust violator and anti-trust exception. I'm confused on something now. So you agree that players being on their own teams is a red line. Yet you think there's been an overreaction to how people are, I guess, college football culture is responding to this judge essentially disintegrating that red line. So I guess what would have been an appropriate reaction to a judge essentially saying that you can bet on your own team and serve two games suspension against two teams that aren't going to be competitive with your squad and come back and play the whole rest of the season. That's a great question. So with regard to Soresby himself, I don't know Soresby. I know the circumstances, I know what I've read, and all that. But to me, rather than cast aspersions on a judge who actually listened to argument and made a ruling, I'm not disagree with the ruling, but I'm not calling the judge some crazy person. There's an appeal process that it's standard. It's not that big of a deal. This happens in court proceedings. So rather than lose my mind over that, and again, this has no presidential value that's going to bind other courts if there were another player in another state that took this same action legally that Soresby did. But here's where I think the NCAA should be losing its mind. But you don't hear any of this. Like, I haven't heard Charlie Baker say a word about this. I haven't heard other administrators. Like, why aren't they calling out the president of Texas Tech saying, wait a minute, why are you taking this particular player on your team? Like, why are you doing that? Like, this guy crossed the line, he violated a rule, and it Soresby who brought the action, it's not the school. But clearly, they want him to play. They've got him on the roster. They want him to play. And it's not like they're the ones they're suspending him, and he's suing the school and the NCAA in this. I think that's where some of the energy should go. I get kind of tired, honestly, and it's not that they're not really good people. But I get kind of tired at presidents standing behind podiums, waving their finger at the public, talking about values and integrity, and then they don't show any. What are you going to show some? They may be talking behind this president's back or talking to him privately. But nobody's saying anything publicly that I've seen. And maybe I've missed it, but I haven't seen it. And when I mentioned the overreaction, I felt like I think it was the big 10 that said, we're not going to play. We're talking about not playing Texas Tech in any sport. No big 10 team is going to play Texas Tech. I find that to be an overreaction. Wait for the appeal. Let's see where this goes. I mean, it's not like football season started last week. And he's going to be playing against Texas on Saturday in the Cotton Bowl. It's not that we got time here. Let's be a little less frenzied and just sort of take a step back on it. Any appeal is likely to take place either deep into the season or after the season. This is it. No, it's going to happen relatively soon. Well, I mean, there could be an appeal from the NCAA. From what I understand, for all intents and purposes, this issue is settled. No. The NCAA has already noticed an appeal. So they filed an appeal. And I believe I don't know what the court docket in Amarillo looks like. So I'm not saying it's going to be tomorrow or next week or next month. But I'm pretty confident that an issue like this is going to be heard before sores be plays. I'm confident of that. That doesn't mean anything. But this is not settled. This is not final. And similar to when Charles Betty Acko was playing, and I think-- there was a similar overreaction to that, you know, it made it seem like, okay, now every school is going to be trolling the G league looking for players and you know, somebody signs a player who's somebody has a player on their team who's 26, 27 years old, they make it seem like, you know, LeBron James is going to come back and go to Ohio State. Same with James Najie earlier in the year. Exactly. James Najie averaged like two points a game. What are we worried about? He had never been enrolled in college and plus the NCAA made him eligible. He didn't go to court. The NCAA said he could play and that's sort of the thing, like, like, you know, and look, I'm fine. Like, criticize the rules and all that stuff, but I thought too much came down on the player there and same with Betty Aco. Like, what are these guys really doing? And so does be same thing. Like, I don't mind him, you know, sort of going to court and if he feels like he's been wronged or whatever, like, fight it out in court, that's fine. But, you know, we kind of made Najie and Betty Aco out to be some kind of criminals and they're not. They did. There's young people that want to play college basketball. Just to take it further to shift the conversation forward, just to chat, you know, you're, your ESPN colleague, Nick Saban, who said that this is a system that badly needs fixing, right? And I know the transfer portal and in combination with this, they've talked about the existential threat to college sports. What do you actually think is the biggest existential threat to college sports? If there is one, there isn't one. There isn't one like the, I don't know what Nick is talking about, honestly. I respect him greatly, reasonable minds could differ on these issues. You don't have to, you know, nobody has to like everything. It's going on, but I, maybe I missed it, but I never heard coaches of his, you know, his generation complaining as the money shot up and they were making tens of millions of dollars every year. You know, I didn't hear anybody saying that boy, this is totally out of control. We can't. The existential problem. What about the wrestling team? Nobody said that. And when coaches are breaking contracts to go to other schools and not playing in their bowl games and all that, you know, I didn't hear other coaches excoriating, you know, these fellow coaches, you know, everything, the business is fine when my money goes up. But boy, when the players start making money and make decisions, boy, now it's an existential threat. Because I went when, and look, this has been happening since 1984, last time the NCAA was before the Supreme Court and they could, after that, no, it was called the Board of Regents case. And all the schools could sell their media rights and conferences pulled them together and the money started exploding. And the coaches said, man, we need to back this off. We're making too much money because it's just wrong and what about other sports? What about women's sports? And all of them said that. But now the players are making money and I heard recently and I don't think he was complaining. I think it was Danny Hurley. I hope I got this right. But I think it was Danny Hurley that said, you know, his, his roster was going to cost $10 million next year. And again, I don't think it was a complaint. It was just kind of stating a fact or the state of the game. And you know, my first reaction was the coaching staff makes more than that. Like the coaching staff makes more than that. Oh, and what multi-billion dollar sport does do the players make less than the coaches? And look, these players right now are undervalued. They're not overvalued. And if you want a salary cap, collectively bargain, because you're point earlier about a CBA and rules, you know, like rules in the Sorzby situation, the players would be agreeing to those rules too. And you know, the NCAA president would be able to be the ultimate arbiter of this and maybe arbitration or something. All that would be agreed upon by the players. And that's what this system is in need of. If you want to restrict someone and restrict their earning power, especially in an environment where look what these schools are paying and how much it's going up, they want, they're going to compete for the best players. They're proving that. If the market is proving that, if you want to restrict it, you've got to get the players to agree to the restriction. So if you want a maximum salary or a salary cap, then you've got to start guaranteeing a minimums and work conditions and all these other things. They have to agree to it for it to be fair and worthwhile. Because even this latest bill, I think it was Senator Cruz and Senator Coons and one other. Can't well think. Yeah, well, yeah, you know, in it interesting, there's not one control on coaches salaries in that thing. Not one. Not one control on facility spending. Not one. The only control they have is, is we're going to control the players. And that to me is wrong to the point of being immoral. Back to the source, we think real quick, granted that the NCAA has a chance to appeal. They're very likely will lose the appeal, right? They were very likely to lose the appeal. I think they'll win. I think they'll win. I think they're very likely going to lose the appeal. Let's say that they do lose and let's say that a player that bet on his team while he was a member of the team plays college football next year. To me, that does seem like not necessarily an existential threat, but a very deep cultural threat. Not just to the NCAA, but to any sport, because in any sport with any group of people, any group of players or participants, once something is deemed sort of acceptable, it creeps into people's minds as being okay to do. This is so beyond the pale to me of anything that should be halfway accepted in any sport. Like the competitive integrity of that sport or whatever it is, we could go to quiz show, to games that were on television. The moment it seems like the competitive integrity of that is shot at other their holes in it, you start to lose faith from the audience and from other people and really lands and outs of the sport. I can't think of a worse turn of events than somebody gambling on their team and not suffering any consequences for. I'm Joe is with you on this. I can't explain to me why I'm overreacting, because all of the things I'm about to talk about about. You're not overreacting. You're, you're homely stating a very compelling argument. I, you know, look, we're on different sides of that we think what we think of how the appeal is going to go, but none of us know like nobody knows how the appeal is going to go. But let's say you're right and source be wins and the NCAA loses this, this appeal that they file. That's one player, one court. It has no value beyond that. So it's not like it's a free pass for players in other states or other areas to go do this and think that they're going to, they're going to walk. They can't point to that precedent, right? No. No, it is not going to work. And so I'm not, I'm not overly concerned about that. Now I'll give you an example and I hope this is a good one. A couple of years ago, Terence Shannon at Illinois was accused of committing a crime that he grabbed some girl in a bar in Lawrence, Kansas and Illinois suspended him while the charges were pending. Shannon sued the University of Illinois for an injunction so that he could play because he was claiming that Illinois violated their own policies that he didn't get a hearing before he was suspended and all that. And he was reinstated and played in the NCAA tournament and all that. Now the charges turned out to be bogus on Shannon. They were completely bogus. But Illinois, I mean, and I kind of agreed with Illinois, like you got a, you got a player who's been accused of a crime while that's pending, you know, it seems reasonable that they could, they could hold them out of competition, you know, and not where, you know, the Illinois brand while that those charges are pending. But, you know, Shannon was right in that they violated their own rules and how they handled the adjudication of his matter on campus. Now that was one school. I don't think other people were out there going, well, I can go commit a crime now, it's still playing. You know, I don't think that opened the door for that. And similarly, I feel the same way here. I don't think other people are going, well, now I can go do that. I think most reasonable folks are going, I would want to do that anyway. You know, they know it's, they know it's wrong. And, you know, soresby, to my understanding, he didn't commit a crime. He just violated an NCAA rule and violated kind of a code of ethics that most people, most people internalized naturally. Like, I think most people, if you asked them without even knowing what the incident, I've learned. the AA rule is, they would say, "Do you think it's okay to gamble on your own team?" I think most people, including people of that age would say, "No, I don't think that's okay. I don't think I could do that and get away with it." Goes back to the Black Sox in 1919, it feels like we all know that story, right? Yeah, yeah. But the Black Sox things, they were shaving points. You're right. Yeah. That was a criminal on the field. Right. Yeah. And this, to my understanding, Sorosby did not violate any law here, and maybe I'm wrong in that, but I don't know that he did violate any law. Because if he did, then he'd have criminal issues to deal with. And I think if he did that, you would see law enforcement agencies going after him. And if he weren't any legal jeopardy that way, I doubt you'd see him bringing an action against the NCAA to bring that kind of thing forward where you'd have to testify under oath about it. I've fanboyed out before we went on the air here, but there's this thing that happens on our show where the week after we have an argument on the show, right? And I'll be making a case and everybody is hating on me or whatever. And then the following week, the guest or the expert, will agree with my argument from the week before. And that's some of the surprise that Jermaine do pre-Dating Janet Jackson to tussling in the locker room, which I'm sure you know about from your days at Duke, or the players being more important or valuable than the coaches. So I just want to thank you for helping me keep up my win streak. This belt to ask that I'll be giving them. And because, you know, like they just, I guess they have to hear that of somebody else's mouth, not mine. Well, you should do what I would commend doing what I like to do is when I've proven right, which isn't all the time, but I say, look, I don't like saying, I don't like saying I told you so. I love. Yeah. Well, this is what I'll say to that, Jay, number one, what Joe is doing right now is called dick riding. And like, no, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't, you don't, you don't have to be like that. You don't have to be like that. So I just agree with, I still think that in college football that the stability of a coach is probably more valuable than the players that come in, which is why players coaches are so valuable, specifically in that sport. And I'll also say that even in the example that you just brought up, sure, I'm sure players knew before and they knew after that they couldn't commit crimes and go out and that would be okay. I guess the question that I would wonder is whether or not universities took a hint from that case and said, we can't suspend players while they're under investigation. What I would wonder is how the fact that Illinois in that situation was, that was rebuked or that was rebuked or that was overturned, whether or not other schools said that, hey, we're not going to be able to do that. And if you saw other guys playing while maybe while they were under investigation or stuff like that, which is always sort of controversial when they do that, whether or not that did change something in the ecosystem of college football, which the question I would ask. But more to the point, all of this, and we can volleyball the printed stories we think back and forth, is this is such a fundamental rule, such a fundamental ethical understanding that to me, there's almost no way to look at it and not look at it as sort of a redefining of what we consider to be okay, culturally in the sport, right? Because if you do something and there is no consequence and I am not a law and order guy or anything like that, if you do something and there is no consequence, if you skirt consequence, if you avoid or evade consequence for something, then there is a bat signal that goes out that says, he got away with this. No, I agree with it. It will be treated differently before this was the red line of not NCAA football or baseball or basketball. This was the red line of competition sports. It is simply not that anymore. And there's no really, it's not, he got, he, it's, he got away with it. But you're talking about putting players, you're still talking about one player, and he hasn't gotten away with it yet, going exactly, he hasn't been punished for it yet. He's actually, he has gotten away with it, we're waiting to see if there's a decision that will revoke the fact that he's got away with it. As it stands now, he's gotten away with it. If you were Brendan Soresby, would you think you got away with it right now? Are you going through all this? You really? Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Without a doubt, I would think that I, if I was Brendan Soresby right now, and this is not me wanting to kick Brendan Soresby in his ass or anything like that. But if I was Brendan Soresby right now, I would think that I had gotten away with it. I would think that I had. I think if he's looking at the right way, here's what I think. If he's looking at it the right way, I think what Soresby should be thinking is, I got over the first hurdle to be able to play, but there's still other hurdles. And the appeal being the next one. And so this is not over. And similar to the Betty Acco case, this is the same kind of thing we heard when Betty Acco won his injunction. And then it was overturned for two weeks or whatever it was. They were like, oh my God, we got jelly, jelly now. And what, you know, LeBron's coming back. And Karina's going to go back to UCLA and play freshman year over again. You know, stuff like that. But to your point, also about, you know, the Shannon situation, what did happen after that was every school went back and looked at their policies to make sure that they're, they could do what they wanted to do and know exactly what their procedures were. And make sure that they followed their own procedures. And if they were difficult to follow, they changed them. So to me, that was all a positive. And especially looking back on it, you know, Shannon didn't do anything wrong. And it turned out the charges were bogus. So for him, I think the legal process actually worked the way you would hope that it would. Yeah, he was misidentified, right? Yeah. Right. Which is good. And there was a lasting change from it happening. Right. And there's an argument to be made that if, if, if Illinois had followed their own procedures and still suspended him, the things would have worked the way they were supposed to. And I'm cool with that. But, you know, there's one thing about these rule, like, I think you mentioned that you're not a law and order guy. I think you are actually. And I think all of us are like, I'm a law and order guy, but I want the rules to make sense. You know, you are. So I don't think you should get the death penalty for a rolling stop. You know, the rules should make sense. And too often the NCAA's rules don't make sense. In this case, they do. In my view. In my view. Yeah. And that's how they keep it in up in court. But Jay, we appreciate you coming to the show and breaking this down. Thank you, Jay. Yeah. I'm appreciate you. Yeah, man. Appreciate you. We appreciate you. You know, trying to walk us through this whole situation. And hopefully we can have you back on the show. We can talk about some more fun things. We can talk about GZ at some point. We can talk about, you know, NBA draft potentially. So a lot of better things in our future. And thanks again for coming on the show, man. You tell me when, Joel, don't, don't, don't stop the Ask Kissing. Don't let them talk. Yeah. Oh, yeah. You know, also the Ask Kickin too. I mean, that's not the Ask Kissing Joe. He likes you. I don't know. Thanks, Jay. Thanks, Jay. All right. There you have it. Jay Billis. Great to have him on the show. We have a voice. Very powerful voice in college sports and has been talking about these issues for quite some time. And he gets a lot of pushback for talking about these issues. But obviously they are issues. And it's good to hear his voice on the matter. Is he your favorite Duke guy? Say, who's your, who's your favorite Duke guy? I mean, Jay's definitely up there. We did the Maui invitation together, Jay's, you know, as far as like personally, probably my favorite Duke guy, as far as dealing face to face, well, to be in Ryan Kelly. Very Duke guy. After the 2022 final four, right into Ryan Kelly, give me a nice, a respectful, frisk, frisk, real quick, real quick, Joe, real quick, do it this, do it like this. Oh, okay. Cool. What was it? It's my, it's the wall. It's a wall. It's Joe. No. No, Jay left something. So. Get. Okay. That's emotion. That's emotion. You got him. That's emotion. I mean, I mean, I was trying to learn it all the time. I wasn't. I learned it. And you'd be kissing us all the time talking about who's asking us. People. I can't be a fan of Jay Billis. I will say one person, I can say the best true of. I like, I got a love for Ray Jay that people don't understand. Ray Jay. I'm a great Jay true. I got a love for Ray. I can say that. Okay. So I give you that. I remember you would don't see it in one time. You said Ray Jay was like one of the, I mean, remember what the topic was. You're like, well, I'm not. right now, you finally, because I mean, he did the spirit of prayer thing. Are you done with him now? I got people, Ray Jay, Ray Jay does the somehow hilarious. Yeah, I can't I can't I can't flow back, but that was great though. Yeah, he was great to have Jay on the show. Appreciate him joining and hanging out with us for a little bit. Let's do our top five headlines of the week and then we'll get out of here. Responding and coming off, well, we were talking about with Sorosby. Georgia and Nebraska's athletic departments have instructed sports coaches of all their teams, not the schedule. Texas Tech following the Sorosby's following Sorosby's eligibility ruling. Joe, do you buy the Georgia and Nebraska? Maybe some other schools are going to try to ban playing Texas Tech. I mean, I don't know how far they were on their schedules, but I've been following Texas Tech a long time. The only time they played Nebraska was when they went the same conference as far as I understand. I can not remember a time in my life where they've ever played Georgia and football. So it feels like a moral high girl that's actually not with a good time. You know, and look, and for the big 12, too, if you don't want to plan, do it back out. You should follow your conscience and pay the money back to Fox Sports that you'll lose in your TV deal for not playing Texas Tech. I would love for you guys to live up your belief. So if don't play them, if you're so mad at Texas Tech, you can, you can make a stand and be willing to say there's no amount of money that would make us sacrifice our integrity by playing against Brendan Sorosby. They should absolutely do it. I can't, I can't wait for the big 12 to line up and do that shit. Now, amazing. The public statements they can make about nonsense. Anyway, they plan. They plan. Everybody's going to play. They play each other in the C.F.E. Like if it was George, you know, Texas Tech in the first round of the C.F.E. That'd be great. But I will say this as Billy there, because we just getting more and more evidence that Billy's flex situation raised the most flex situation. So we have in one month a couple of different examples of where Billy's flex situation should work. It could have worked with Texas playing Texas Tech, remember when Texas Tech, and it could work now. People didn't want to play. They could flex the game out and everybody. They might have not even played Sorosby if they realized that the flex was an option because they'd been like, hey, maybe these motherfuckers don't play us if we put Sorosby on the field. Yeah, they haven't yet, but I'm the Billy. I mean, it's hard being a visionary, but it's fine. Have you come around on the idea at least? I think I was wrong about it. I think it is a good idea in retrospect. Now, I think that the likelihood of it happening is very low, but I can see the argument for it now. I mean, players can gamble on their teams in play now. I mean, I mean, Jamark, Jamarkestiles at Illinois State, please don't believe that you could gamble on your team and get away with it because it might not work out the same way for you. I promise you, like it's not everybody's not going to get the brind of Sorosby treatment. Everybody ain't going to be able to afford Jeffrey Kessler for one. That is an attorney that only a few people can send in there. Did you feel bad or good when our guest, Jay Billis signed off by telling you to keep kissing ass? You did flip it, Joel. You said you're kicking ass. Yeah, I just say I was kicking ass. That's true. That's true. I thought that's what he meant, too. But you know, that's not what he said. But they don't they don't ever respect that. That's the problem with kissing ass. It's like, he's like, you kiss ass and then the person's ass that you kissing, they don't ever respect it. I don't know if that's true or not. No, it is true. I learned that would give me chemistry. Definitely true. I don't know how much I love to show. I don't think sometimes ass kissing didn't work out for people. I mean, that's amazing. I think it's all right. Why? I think sometimes I think it works up. Hey, man, Joel, every day, every fucking week, you want to really go deep on that issue. That's a different one. I don't need to go on higher learning for some reason. Yeah. But what I'm saying is, I like, Jamie. What's up? Yeah. What's up? No, the lights on, Jamie here. Yeah, I want to say what's up to, Jamie. I actually think, Jamie, come say what's up to the tailgate. I don't know what the fuck you. What the fuck is happening? The lights off. I thought yo, what's up, man? Yo, what's up, Joe? What's up? How you got to know about gambling in college sports? Get the fuck out of it. This is the second time. This is the second time because he showed up at your house one time on a live stream. Jamie, you like kind of, uh, it's right. You kind of like our floating recurring character. I don't know how the football fans are here. I know Lincoln Riley. I know you're watching your time is up, that dog. Let's put this to the audience. I don't think that ass kissers really respect the people that's kissing they ask. I don't think they do. Joe, you think that they do. I mean, I guess it depends on what you mean. Like, I mean, so there's a difference between whether or not they respect you and whether you will prosper because you kiss ass. You know, and sometimes that's the question you got to ask. I think they never respect you. Well, I don't think ass kissers respect people that kiss. I mean, I got to be honest. I was, I like Jay. I'm a big Jay, uh, viewers fan. But, uh, what do you get out of it though? Cause I'm listening. Listen, listen, listen, listen, listen, listen. What if he doesn't get out of telling Jay billies your favor? If he doesn't, if he doesn't, if he doesn't respect me, if he doesn't respect me, I mean, I can't do none about it, man. I just have to live with it. But he may have respected you without asking. I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm so sorry to Jay. Uh, Billus doesn't respect me. That's the case. It's also a way out. I mean, I've got, you know, I promise you, it wouldn't crack my like top 300 concerns. So, I don't know how to get that J for no reason. - Yeah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah I think he's great and he should be in more things. And I had to tell him that to his face because I I skied at it on blue sky once. Oh my God. Come on. Yeah. I think there's breaking news. You and J Bells. I'm breaking news. What's going on? I didn't hear that. Say it again. Breaking news. You heard it. The chiefs are adding two years to patch of my home's contract contract. 233 500 million dollars. Huh. All right. Sixty-four million dollars a year for patch of my own. Man, he's going to be making just a little bit more than Pat McAfee, man. It's good to be a Pat. Bro, hey, seriously though, if I was McAfee, I still don't know. If I was getting pet, if I was an analyst, getting paid like a ball player, like a ball player, because normally they don't, right? Normally, you throw somebody 20, 25 million. You at the top of the fucking heap, right? Yeah. But now, if you McAfee, you got to look at you like, hey, fucking Josh Allen little nigga. Bro, you got to look at like, like, like, like, like, what you got? Look at the bar, Jackson, like, you know, I'm gonna shit on you a little bit. Like, it's kind of, you normally, you don't work. Doing the sport. Yeah. I mean, there's not, he's, he's got to be in the hot and the 1% of people who get paid in the sports world, right? They can't be that million a year. Yeah, like just Ronaldo make more money, repayment. No, no, no, yeah, he probably getting crazy, but he's over 40. I think Ronaldo right now might be the highest paid athlete ever, like per year. I think he might be the man as far as that's concerned. He makes $300 million. Oh, shit, okay, my bad bill. Yeah. Okay, go. That's okay. Okay, thank you. Yeah, that's a pair. According, according to this, which take this with a grain of salt, right? I didn't, I didn't go to my homeboy. My nigga clawed with this. I went to Google AI overview. I went home, because I'm not. According to this, he Ronaldo makes $300 million a year. He makes $235 million with his contract with the Saudi pro league, so paying him a crazy amount of money. And then off the field, he makes another 65. So he going crazy. So off the field, he still makes around mac a fee money. Yeah, yeah, off the field, he makes more than mac a fee and just more than patching my homes is making now. Yeah, he made $2 billion for his whole career. Hey, man, my mom is locked outside the house. Let me, I got a letter in. All right, just hold on one second. Oh, God. Oh, my God. That's so good. While Joe, while Joe, while Joe is here, we can do just random topics till he gets back, because you only go, what do you take? You look like you're a cat's eye fan. Do you like them? That's like it. I mean, I know they are. Take take. - Uh-huh. Uh-oh. - All right for it. I just thought it was mom. - Y'all's mom got at him a little bit. What is she saying? - Yeah, she wasn't happy. - No, well I mean, she got in the house. She said that I can't get in the house and none of the keys on the ring fit the kitchen in the front door and I said they do use it. And then I was just like, and then she came in and she was in the house. And I was like, she, I mean, she got in the house too. - Yeah, it did work. She didn't try all the keys, man. - Anywhere. - Yeah, it happens. Well, good to have you back. Next headline, college football, future power rankings through 2027 ESPN put these out. I'm gonna read you the top five. - Okay. - Number one, Notre Dame. As far as the future power rankings. Number two, Ohio State number three, Texas number four, Oregon number five, Georgia. Usual suspects there for the most part. But Van, I'm gonna get your thoughts on this. LSU, I'm going down the list. They're number eight on the list. Do you agree with that? - All right. - Okay. - I mean, honestly, honestly, in the heyday of the LSU run, you can look at the team being ranked. What the even fan expectation being ranked from somewhere between, I don't know, like in the top 10. And then every couple of years, five and 10. And then every couple of years, making like a crazy run. That's normally what it was. Sometimes there were those crazy years where we were number two or number three and couldn't get over the hump. But mostly, you're looking at the top 10 program. Top five ish program that every couple of years gets that team that can be fuck with. And I don't have a problem with that. Eight, I think it's more interesting that Notre Dame is number one. That I think that's really fucking interesting. - I mean, is that about where they've got stability at coach? They probably, I mean, I guess they'll probably get CJ Carl for another year. I mean, 'cause I, I could see like, this is forecasting the next decade based on my understanding. - Okay, I thought it was like going out 2027, but also sort of the stability of the program. But either way, so you get, you're probably gonna have CJ Carl for another couple of years. You've got Marcus Freeman who turned down the NFL, a couple of NFL jobs. And he's recruiting very well. Yeah, I would feel really good about it if I was Notre Dame. I am interested in Texas at three, because I understand the Texas package. Like they're gonna get the athletes. They may have archmaning back, you know, for another year and all that stuff. But I just, I'd be interested to know Steve Sarkesian will be there in three years. - You know, if he starts soccer, he'll be in Texas. - Yeah, where would Sark go? - I mean, he'd do the pros, get, maybe get run up out of there. - Oh, fire is black ass. - Fire is black ass and his wife is black wife. - Yeah, man, 'cause he, uh. - Joe, there's a lot of pressure on him this year, what? - There's a lot of pressure on him this year. - There were Texas fans that were upset they weren't at number one. - Yeah, man, if you can't, if you can't win this year and I've done this before, so. - I think Ohio State should be at number one. Just my personal. - What's up, too? - But I get, I wonder if the theory is there is that Ryan Day will probably just wanna go on and do something else at some point. And maybe they'll be a job offer at that in the NFL. - In the NFL. - No job offer in the NFL, they may look good to them. Because look, man, we are two years, we're really literally two years away from them. We're two people one in him five. You know what I mean? Like, going into the playoffs in 2020 and 2024 in another year without playoffs. - Joe, I just didn't get win it at all. - Joe Ryan. - Yeah, I think they were, I think they were five days. - Ryan Day is 47, man. - Ryan Day is 47? - Yeah, man, Ryan Day is supposed to stay there to is the Ryan Day field. - Yeah. - Coaches don't do that no more. - Are you right? But like for him, what, if you are, if you are Ryan Day, you almost have to get fired because there's not anywhere, it's not a program for you to go to in college football. If you go to the pros, there's one thing. - Right. - Honestly though, I'll be real with you. I think that these college coaches are less inclined to go to the NFL than they used to be. You see us all time. You see guys, this, Erson, Jimmy Johnson, even Nick Saban to a degree. These guys all wanting to cut their teeth or what's going on in the NFL. I think that there are a lot of these guys that like the, I guess sort of stability and the continuity of the college game more. I don't know if some of these guys are-- - And you don't have to deal with others. - Well, yeah, I don't know if they see themselves as NFL coaches. - But you got to deal with raising money from your boosters every year. - No. - Like, you know, it's like-- - I think that's going to get stabilized at some point. - It might, but that's, it's actually run off a lot of coaches, right? With it, it's like, I don't like the instability of it. You know, the players have a lot more freedom and some of them don't like that. But yeah, man, I cannot believe I'm older than Ryan Daydark. That's crazy. - T.C. - Coming in at number 31, Joel. - That sounds about right. - Actually, that's not, actually, I'm not, no hatred at all. That's actually, that's actually not bad. And that, I mean, they can, they can improve on that. - I was interested that we were fast, fast behind Houston, 'cause I just, you know, as Houston's a new Big 12 program, they just came up. T.C.U. has had a pretty good head start on them as a national, you know, a team that matters nationally and already we're behind Houston. And so, again, I don't know if that's a sunny dyke thing. I don't know if that's, we don't, we ain't got it thing. So, again, it's a very subjective list. But I find this very fascinating. And it really threw me for a look 'cause I was looking for this program. I said I was going down the list. Florida State, number 50. - Bro, that was crazy. - That is insane. - Florida State at 50, man. Behind you, say, like, behind Wake Forest. - Behind Wake Forest. - Yeah, and what are we talking about? - Duke Vanderbilt, they're behind them. - Northwestern. - If I legitimately, if I was in the Florida State, faithful, if I was part of that culture, that's the type of thing that would make me want him fired. - Yeah. - Seriously. It, to me, I'm not saying that they should or they shouldn't, it's a proof of year for him next year that kind of stuff with the contract a little bit honestly. But for them to be paying our head coach that much money, remember, he leveraged, he leveraged the next statement retirement to get a real bad for him to be paying them, for them to be paying him that much money. To be 50, you're paying for it. Top 50 pro, I mean, if we're taking this fucking list on his face, this means nothing. - Damn, my boy Adam Rittenberg may put a lot of thought in this one. - Shout out to Adam Rittenberg, but I'm saying the list itself, like they'd be actual ranking. Yeah, it's, it's. - Right, right, right, right. But I'm still wow to see that. And also. - You know what, Florida State is broke. I mean, they didn't have the money to get rid of Norval. They probably would have fired Mike Norval if they could have done it. And the bigger pro, I don't know if it's the bigger problem and not given how college football's changing, but recruiting is falling off. Right, they just don't. They're not making the waves in, in Florida, like they used to. And so it's like, what do you really have to look forward to? Like they did not, they don't have a lot of homegrown talent on the team, you know. - They also don't have the alumni base. That's the back money. - They've got Auburn's throw away. Is there starting quite Ashton Daniels this year? And like, I don't think Ashton Daniels is a bad quarterback, but I would have thought Florida State could have done better than that. - So yeah, it's there, they're in trouble, man. - Yeah, it's, it's pretty interesting, though. We're just thinking about the history of what, you know, coach bowed into there and obviously all the great players have had a Florida State. So I find them fascinating at 50. North Carolina at 51, one spot behind Florida State. - Bill, Bill, let's take a Bobby Patrino, man. I got one last ride. - Yeah, we're ready to ride now. - One spot behind Florida State, that's crazy. - Speaking of hot seats, hot seat rankings, we're gonna do our own hot seat once we get closer to the season. But rankings came out and Lincoln Riley, she got up to Joe Meeve just came in here. But Lincoln Riley is on the hot seat rankings. And you agree with that, that Lincoln Riley should be worried. - I mean, we just had an SCPAN in here. - Yeah, I gotta ask him, like he, they're not having it. - So, I guess you can't deny the fact that he is. The question is, is it fair, you know what I mean? - They were number 40 on this list, FYI. - I guess that's the question you asked me, too. But I don't know. Like it seems, if they are judging Lincoln Riley by the standard of the expectations that they had coming in, there's no way to argue that he's lived up to those standards. However, SC has a pretty healthy program. All things being considered, right? Like next year, it should be a year where-- - Good recording. - They're able to kind of, yeah, all of that stuff, it would seem as if you're being rational, which college football fans should never be, to give Lincoln Riley a couple of more seasons to kind of get you to that top five ranking. - Yeah, I mean, I get it. Like you said, you know, I'm a person that's very conservative in that regard. Well, I'm like, I don't know if you want a five coach like Lincoln Riley. - This is Joel back on "Find Bomb." Just end it very conservative. - No. I mean, y'all really amp in this just "Find Bomb" thing. - No, we get it all "Find Bomb." - I don't even think about "Find Bomb," but I do want him to come on to "Find Bomb" at some point. I mean, we think about "Find Bomb." But anyway, listen. So here by your record, 11 and three-- - Yeah. - Nah, man, he got to do better. - They got those on "Find Bomb." They're paying him a lot of money. - So, so yet, nah, they got to do better. They got to do better. When you look at it like this, the record is 11 and 3, 8 and 5, 7 and 6 are 9 and 40. - That's not good enough for what they're doing. And I mean, look, they-- - And what they're paying, damn. - This is their schedule this year. So I think you're probably going to see about three losses, maybe more. They got September. This is a, but it's still a favorable schedule because they get Oregon, they get Washington and Ohio stayed at home, right? The toughest road game. Yeah, the toughest road games are at Penn State at Indiana, okay? So like, and they, I don't, I mean, if I'm a USC fan, I know that these are the last couple of years, but do I really think that Indiana should be a better program to me, like, what I still accept USC going out there and losing to Indiana. And so if he were to lose four games this year or three in a, in an ugly fashion and not content for the playoffs, yeah, man, I could kind of understand why they might think they need to move on. One other, if he loses four, if he loses four, he'll be fired. Yeah, I think so. One other note, I saw Jeremiah Love was on with Aman. Aman, Ross St. Brown and on their podcast. And he was talking about playing USC because obviously Aman went there and he was just, you know, asked him about the game. He was Notre Dame and Jeremiah Love kind of, you know, was just saying like they did. He was like, those guys didn't give a shit, you know, like, you know, and I think when you give that, that sort of inside baseball talk about a game from a player that's going up against them, I just think some of that stuff rubs you the wrong way too when you were a fan. Joe, one more time, what did you say USC's toughest row games were again? At Penn State, at Indiana. Is that right? Yeah, that's what I had. Is there my missing something? I mean, they played at UCLA on November 28th, you didn't. It seems to me that you don't give a fuck about Nico, like, you don't care about, you know, thinking. No, they go. Is that in the Rose Bowl? Is that it? Oh, the Rose ball, which we know now, we should go to the game. We should go to the game. That's what we should go take. Thanks, thanks. We should throw the ball. I don't, I don't want to go that week. That's thanks given week. I'll be here with my family. So you all enjoy yourself. Hey, wait. Y'all said y'all was going to go on the boat ride. Did y'all do the boat ride? No, we didn't. Of course, you didn't. No, we said we don't want to go on the boat ride. Y'all, we told you, Joe, we told you we do the boat ride. Joe, every time you do this, we do the boat ride this week. Like keep, keep doing we doing the boat ride. Okay. They call it and him out on the boat. There's some coke on the button on this show. My amy boat life. Uh, next up, another headline, Dabo Sweeney, he says that Clemson is, quote, ready to get back to the top. And he has no plans to retire to the beach anytime soon. Van, do you believe Dabo? I mean, I'm, yeah, he, yeah, they're ready to get back on top. Yeah, they're ready. You know, just like other people that tell you that they ready to get on top, they don't mean they're going to do it. You know, I'm saying, they might say that. Dabo, they didn't come home work. They tired. They're like, you know, let's put on memory of a killer and you go, I thought you said, you know, anyway, you know, say it. So it's like, yeah, yeah, he's ready. He's ready. Yeah, they're ready. They're ready. But we, I'll tell you what, we got to see the Clemson's fall off has to be said. We have to see what happens with Clemson this year. And a guy chance that we're playing Clemson again this year, LSU's playing Clemson again this year. Like we have to really see what Clemson is made of this season. They, they, they actually, if you look at it, dabble was actually able to stop the team from becoming a complete dumpster fire last year. It could have ended up in the situation where we're talking about like a three win team or something like that. But Clemson at different points last year did show some signs of life, which kind of tells me that the, at least the player still believe in what he's talking about. Yeah, they were the sexy pick to win the national table. I was going to say man, they were the sexy pick. There were a lot of people picked them to definitely make the playoffs and be the ACC favorite, but even play in the national championship. And then they went seven and six. And I'm looking and I'm looking at the schedule. So what do you think at LSU? I think that's a loss. Yeah. I think they'll probably lose. Yeah. Yeah. October 3rd against Miami. You think they'll beat Miami? No, they probably lose. Okay. Those are pretty much the only two. I mean, you know, they played North Carolina, they're at Cal. They're average, you know, at Cal. And it's on a Friday too. But I mean, if dabble doesn't go nine and three, man, I'd be like, what's going on? Look, and here's the thing that I was thinking about. How many coaches actually managed to turn it around? Like once the coach just sort of gone down that spiral, you hardly have a question. Like Joe paterno was one of the few because he had a couple of years where he went like three and nine and four and seven. And he was in his seventies and they're like, well, maybe we should move on from Joe paterno, but he, you know, we don't want to fire him. And then he managed to kind of turn it around. And they had, you know, about three, 11 win seasons before, you know, he had to step out of his role. So maybe, so maybe, so maybe, so maybe, maybe, maybe dabble will do that. Maybe he will have a second act to improve on this. And he would do that. Like a powering he's a second act coaching 10 years, you know, bro, because I'm Scott frost at UCF. Yeah, it's kind of ruminating in my mind, you know, I mean, like he's been able to actually bounce back because it's true. Like once the fans turn on you, it's hard to win him back without some sort of drastic season. And even then they're still skepticism that's behind it. So dabble, we will see what happens. Last story here, NC State is investigating whether LSU improperly persuade Will Wade, head coach to the basketball team to break his contract with the Wolfpack. I was told behind the scenes, even before this became a thing that that was what was happening. There was some tamper. I think they're going to find that in the investigation, but Van LSU, the coach is my goodness. They got a lot going on over there. Yeah. So I will say this will wait. The thing about Will Wade is that he's always been a coach that prioritized straight dealing integrity. He's always done things. Actually, in Ben Rouge, we call him will buy the book way. Okay. We'll buy the book way, but you know how you spell buy B UI by. Yeah. Without a doubt, the thing that I love the most about Will Wade returning to LSU, it was it was just a complete embrace of the total bullshit. It's like a total embrace of the bullshit for LSU to even ask. Honestly, for LSU to even ask, like, didn't care about the way it looked. It's like, hey, when we went and got kicked in, he'd be texting the co-edged like, well, what else can we do? Like, it's like, they didn't care how it looked. They didn't care how it felt. But if you're asking me what this investigation will probably uncover it'll probably uncover shenanigans. And then when it happens, happens. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's just funny to me because on both sides because I'm like, this is a real way, man. Like I'm just like, the best year they lost, they went, they advanced to the sweet 16. But in four of his five years there, he lost 15 games, 10 games, 10 games, 11 games. I'm like, this is all over Will Wade. In C state, 2014, last year, we got to keep Will Wade. I just, it seems undignified that everybody is busing it open for Will Wade. And I have a homie who goes to NC state shot out deck who is like, maybe this is maybe just to play Kate the fan base. But I'm like, even if you win this case, like, did you really wait? I mean, just, I feel like y'all should just move on. Like just, yeah, I know you hurt. Also, they were kind of turning on them anyway at the end of the year. They're like, you did a horrible job with this team. I mean, yeah, I just kind of, yeah, I mean, it's just undignified. Like you got a new coach now. Throw your support in behind him. The money that you're going to spend on any kind of play there at NC state, too, gaining. So I mean, yeah, man, just have you ever, have you guys ever known anybody that didn't even want their X, but was just mad that they was with somebody else? Yeah, it's called a ego. Yeah, like you don't, they're like, bruh, like you all you did was complaining. You're one of them. I tell you to get with that. Yeah, it's true. You haven't said you know, I'm a G. You haven't been in that person before. You haven't been, you haven't been that. Not really, man. Really? Yeah. Not really. Not really. Like once, you know, all the time together. Yeah, exactly. What the best one? Yeah, just move on. I've been nice, like, yeah, go for it. I'm never tripping. I'm like, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm normally non concerned. I'm not a hater, you know what I mean? You know, Chuck Closterman once wrote something. It was something like, you know, you want the, the woman you've been with her, you've cared about at some point. You want her to like you best. And then like, but still find happiness with the second, the guy that she loves the second most of her life. It was something along those lines. So tough. He said it more elegant than that. But it's just like, you don't want some girl to be just moved on and be like, yeah, man, life really got a lot better. I wanted to have a good life, but I don't want to be like, that motherfucker whack and things really turned around when he got out of my life. Well, it depends on why it depends on why her life is better. Like if her life gets better, because she settled, then yeah, that's cool. But if she find somebody that you couldn't have possibly been, then you just have to remind yourself that that guy is out there, which by the way he is. Man, I could tell a story right now. I'm not gonna tell it, but it's not about me, it's about one of my homeboys who thinks a lot of himself and I remember we had a lot of fun with this because his girl met some dude and this dude was not a guy that my boy would have thought could compete with him. And we were all like, no she likes him, no she likes him, I think Amy though, it's hard to tell. It's hard to tell that he's not you. Look at it. I love that. I love that. Yeah. She's looking at the oxy content is going straight to her brain. She liked it. Whenever going on, you say if she was dirty, she liked dirty shoes. She thought she liked clean shoes, as I said, dirty shoes. So what? Yeah, man. I missed it. He's changed. Yeah. That's life. I want everybody to be happy to find love big and like, I just like, of course. Man, I still, I miss Joel. I want them to think that. Deep in the recesses of their mind. I think that's, that's, that's funny, Joel, that you think that one. It cracks me up. Yeah. I mean, I would like that. I don't know if that's true. I got to suspect for a couple though. That probably is the case. But anyway. We'll break that down at a later date. All right. There you have it. Fun show. Thanks again to Jay Bill's for coming to the show. Any parting shots? Anything we missed? Joel, anything that you want to hit? Man, I want to send a shout out, well, not a shout out, R.I.P. to former Oklahoma State Coach Bob Simmons. Yeah. He died Tuesday, the age of 77. He was the first black coach there and he was there from 95 to 2000. He was 97 big 12 coach of the year and just sort of then keeping with the general rule that black coaches very rarely get good jobs. He ended up at Oklahoma State after they had been, they'd lost six straight seasons. They were still dealing with like real probation that like fuck them up. Like they couldn't play a bowl game for three years or a band from TV for two. They lost scholarships. And so he was there and it was tough. And this is, again, before T-Boom picking started showering money all over that program. He took a really difficult job and did really well. Like, I mean, they, you know, went 1338. That's not great now. But for what Oklahoma State used to be, it wasn't bad. He beat OU three seasons, something that they don't do regularly. And he brought a bunch of great players up and still water, man. Like, y'all remember R.W. McQuaters, R.W. McQuaters. I remember R.W. McQuaters, yeah. Yeah, he got R.W. McQuaters, R.W. McQuaters, a cornerback, right? The cornerback. That's right. Yeah. He got, he got Tatum Bell up there. He got the, maybe Tatum Bell was the man. Tatum Bell. He was the dude before Des Bryant up there. They had, he brought him in. They had a lot of great players at Oklahoma State. Kevin Williams, Jamal Williams, he's got the guy that brought them in. And he set the stage for a young offensive coordinator to take over. Do you remember who the offensive coordinator is? Less miles. There you go. There you go. Less miles. There you go. So he was the guy that really set that program on the right path to be what it is. What it used to be before last year. So, yeah, R.P. Coach Simmons, man, a legend in the game. Yeah, rest in peace. I don't like that shout out Van, any other parting shots for the people. Man, I say shout out Jay Billis, man, shout out Cody Campbell. Oh, man, Cody Campbell, we gotta talk about it. We gotta talk about shout out Cody Campbell, we don't, we still went for you to happen to the interview room. I see you all here doing other interviews, Cody Campbell. Watch yourself. Bullshit. That's bullshit. Bullshit. That's bullshit. That's Cody Campbell. I was excited. Yeah. Are we, are we rooting for Texas Tech this year or not? I saw always like him. Now we got printed stories, we got Cody Campbell, we got people that's really not fucking what I was like talking about. Well, no, I don't know. Well, I don't know yet. I think it's open ended right now. We don't have to decide. Yeah. Well, I'm just talking about the room. Yeah. Yeah, we gotta decide. Yeah. Yeah. We'll think about it. We might be fucking over there. We gonna do that. We gonna do our top 10 villain teams of college football before the season starts. Top 10 villain teams. Not gonna do top 10 teams we like because I don't like no teams, but top 10 villain teams of college football. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We got some previews coming up. College football. People asked me if we were going to do a mailbag too. We should do a mail. People got questions for us, man. We should look. We should do a mailbag. Yeah. DM me on Instagram. That's where the Bob Sur thing came from. Is that really? Yeah. I want to reach out. I mean, again, I appreciate you watching the show, but I mean, Doc, you said that you said 1996. Motherfucker, the first thing I see it went first. I see it. This is pitch read. I forgot about the years. I just thought it was very funny that he's like, wait a second. Yeah. Bobbi Sur is the guy. Get out of here. Yeah. Crack me up. Shout out to everybody for listening to Ring of Tailgate. We appreciate you. We're going to close the gate right now. We're going to be back next Wednesday. We will see you all then. Hope everybody has a great week. Must be 21 or older in president select states for Kansas and affiliation with Kansas star casino or 18 and older and president DC can tuck your Wyoming gambling problem call 1 800 gambler or 1 800 by reset call 1 8 8 7 8 9 7 7 7 7 7 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. 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