The BRAND, The Design and You | In Conversation with Rajesh Thyagarajan

Hello and welcome to the podcast on industrial marketing by Bijoy Pita. Within experience of over 20 years, Bijoy helps engineering and manufacturing companies implement modern marketing programs that deliver meaningful business outcomes through definitive brand strategies, production of media assets, marketing automation and lead generation systems transforming their digital footprint globally. Hope you find the podcast valuable to your business. Do visit bejoypeeta.com to stay connected. Hello everyone. Today I have with me Rajesh Jagarajan. Rajesh is a brand design communication consultant and Rajesh helps brands and businesses energize their visual presence through creative design solutions that enhances experiences, strengths, relationships with the brand and drives profitability. Hi Rajesh. Hi Bijoy, thank you so much. That was such a good introduction. That was a really good introduction. So my first question to you Rajesh, I'll pick it up from your website artistico-dopio.com. I mean the opening line says the voice of one's work is greater than the sound of one's voice. At this point I want to know that because designing is like, I mean it's a very holistic approach and there is no beginning and there is no ending. There is no best design and there is no worst design. So as a designer who is into the business commercially and looking at it from a profitable relation both ways, how do you draw a line between skill and art? Or maybe we can call it a line between passion and skill. That's a brilliant question. See I always look at this way. So I always look at both of them passion and skill can both be integrated with each other. Because the way I always look at it is you can always have skill. I think passion drives it to a whole other level. Correct. So for me I'm very passionate about branding. I've always been passionate about design. It's now going to be nearly 19 years. You started in 2004. I started in 2004 but I started my business in 2004. That's why I was working with you. That's why I did the put out. I mean for decades and also it's like terms of that our dads were best friends. Which we didn't realize much later. It's kind of a DNA. So the way I've always looked at it is like for me I was always passionate about art. I've never got passionate about design. And then over the last couple of years I understood looking back at my 17 years at A I love branding. I love logos. Okay. So what is that in tail? Oh shit that entails everything. Branding is like the concept. Right. So for me I understood that I'm very passionate about building brands. Right. Right. Now what are the skills that I need? Right. To take that to the next level. Right. So for me what I'm understood is passion comes first. Right. Forward by skill. Right. Passion is the fuel for your skill. Right. I mean if I said that right. It's okay. So let me put it this way. Right. When you're passionate about something. Correct. You will figure out what you need. Right. To take that passion for. Correct. So the reason I'm asking you this is because I mean we both been working around with a lot of business owners. Yes. Sometimes when you start a design project. Yeah. I mean it's difficult to put a hard stop to the project. So either it has got to do with like a sense of completion from the artist's side. Or it has got to do with the client probably not knowing what he wants. So at this point I also want to know where should the client also draw a line for the creativity and practicality. So I mean I've seen a lot of business owners. The projects are going on for probably years. Right. There's no logo in place. There's no brand stationary. So what are they doing? Yes. It's completely a conflict between. Probably they don't know where to draw the line. They need to put a hard stop. Yeah. So from an artist's perspective as you rightly said passion, right skill. But from a client's side. I mean what do you think of the client? Where should the client draw the line and call it a hard stop saying that I've got the creativity. That is practical. And this is I'm going to use this design for my this generation of activities. See I think it's a very loaded question because I think it completely depends on what is it goal when I setting out to achieve for the brand. Right. So even if you've got a project that's running in for years. Right. Is it achieving the target that it's been set out? Sorry. Yeah. In the first year, second year, third year for it to take so. Right. So I always approach project in terms of what is the goal that we are setting out to achieve? Right. Which actually is what is the problem that we're trying to solve? Right. Right. Right. So where can I. So when you're talking terms of creativity and practicality, it the way I look at it from the Indian context and overrun from the global context is feasibility. Yeah. Practicality is feasibility. Yeah. And especially since time is the raw material in such an alignment, even for the client as much as it is for the artist. Yeah. I mean, they need to kind of make it tangible. I mean, or rather, how do they see this as a tangible? Traditional businesses are built on brick and mortar. Yeah. And the client cannot be blamed for it. Yes. But that's how it is. So they perceive service also as something related to input and output. Correct. So with respect to that, I want to know, how can clients see an assignment related to design as a tangible part of their business, which they can touch and feel. So how should they see this exercise of designing or branding? I would say it's. I would say nowadays, like my role as a brand design communications consultant is also an educated member. Right. When I'm sitting with clients, because it's also one thing is clients are a lot more aware than they were like when I started out. Yeah. I think in our market, they've all they've just completely the undistain now because of the internet and social media explosion. Good. They are aware in our lot of things. But when it comes in terms to words like all right, like how practical is it? I would always look at it like for clients like all right, for example, if I'm sitting across a client. Right. And client is like all right, this is what I need to do. This I need all these things in place because branding is not really tangible. Exactly. That's the thing. But the returns, I mean, totally affect the way people perceive their brands. That's where they educate them. I've seen people having like a shabby logo. Yes. And there's a notion that oh, I mean the logo is shabby. The website doesn't look good. Alquan negotiate with this guy. Yeah. You start looking negotiable. Yes. Yes. So that's a very good point. That's a very good point. The education that educated the client is very important to see it as a tangible part of their business. Yeah. Right. So you were saying because in terms of when you, you know, there's one thing that you just said. In terms of okay, they have a shabby logo. Yeah. And a change to local. Okay. You know what? I'm going to change the logo and I'm going to get this thing done. That really doesn't solve the problem. Correct. Correct. That's why the reason I said it's more of an educational endeavor also is because the client needs to be aware about first of all why you're doing this. Exactly. When I sit with potential clients or existing clients, my questions is nothing to do with the project that they've called me to discuss. Right. Right. It is all got to do. Can you tell me why did you start this brand brand in the first place or why do you want to start this brand in the first place? Correct. Right. I want to get to understand that the objective. Second. What is your objective? What is your vision? Not now because it's a trend. Right. Five years, 10 years, 15 years. Correct. So for a couple of minutes, they are not expecting that aspect. Yeah. Because they are thinking in terms of, oh, you're a creative person. I have got this. You need to create. Right. Right. Right. So I always talk in terms of let's talk long term. Right. Because the long term once I understand what's your vision in place for this existing brand or a new startup that you have in mind. Right. Once we have that in place, then we back. Correct. And then we look in terms of all right. For this first year. Now that we know that's your plan. For this first year. What can we get done exactly? So that is where the tangible aspect in front of that. Okay. I'm investing so much money because I tell you, oh, 10 year plan. Okay. This is it's going to run in a couple of likes. Right. Right. Right. Right. You'd be like, how or not? What can you show me from a logo? I'm like, no, I'll design a logo for you now. Yeah. I'll design your branding ideology. Right. Now it's not a creative impact now. Yeah. It's shot up. It'll right now. You create your way. Basically because you've got like brick and mortar as you said business as yeah. Online. The logo is your brick and mortar. Exactly. And I think that also I mean it's it's high time. People look at the relation with their designer from an account level. Then from an assignment level. What happens in an assignment level is as you rightly said, you need the business needs to get acclimatized with the idea of, okay, the logo has come in. Now let me digest this fact. Now we have a logo. The second year could be you would be the prime guy's life. Yeah. Sometimes everything is going to be a little bit more. then just put them to the client and then they kind of get overwhelmed by the entire thing and nothing goes ahead. I would say that they would get overwhelmed because we've not done the groundwork of building up their vision first. Correct. Correct. Because when you load up everything to a client in the first log, oh you need us. Okay, this is your, you want to brand start up? Oh great, you need a logo, you need an IDOL, you need a guideline, social media, you need this, you need that, Google, you know when you bombard like that, the dial is like what shit, you just you're going to take money. Yeah. But when I've done that groundwork, yeah, yeah, let's talk 10 years, let's talk five years. Yeah. It's very surprising. Many times when client actually take a step back, they're like, oh shit, I didn't think five years. Correct. I didn't think 10 years. Right. Okay, I'm like, let's think about that first. Yeah. What do you want to, because when you breathe, when you do that groundwork, now when you tell them, oh, you know, so we're building this brand. Yeah. Now we need to do this. This will help you then. Right. So in my experience, clients are very receptive at that time. Though they don't get over with. Yeah. They may get over when it comes to the budget. Correct. Correct. But that's all right. So what I always tell clients is like, so this is a line, I call it like a disclaimer when I speak to clients. I tell them that whatever solutions I am offering you in this initial, what I call the discovery session. Yeah. Is irrelevant whether you choose me or you go with another design. Right. My solution to you will not change even if you choose to go to somebody else. Okay. Because I'm looking at how can I help you build this? Right. That's what I'm looking at. I'm not looking at, oh, you want a lower design? Great. Here's a budget. Let's do that. Right. So for me, many times when I operate that way, right. I see that the clients are a lot more receptive. Right. I may not get the project. Yeah. But I get references that come in. Right. Because the client has understood now long term. He's not looking at because he's not over when, oh, shit, I need to do because you know, a lot of clients are not really, they're aware. Yeah. But they don't know what steps do they need to take? Do we need to go to a big agency? Do we need to take a small time design? What would be, who do we approach? So, I mean, exactly. So, I mean, as you rightly said, asking is actually selling. Telling is not selling. I mean, I'm not putting it from a salesy perspective. Yeah. Yeah. Of course. I mean, in the right perspective. It's what they said. Right. It was listening to one of the podcasts where they said is if you look at the core meaning of selling from the past, I know which I will agree, call that which I'll know. It is to serve. Yes. Yes. So, I do know me. Yes. Yes. I'm not a big fan of sales. Yeah. We are very opposite that. Honestly, no, we also be sold to them. Nobody wants to be cared about. If you serve them, yeah. And they're happy. Yes. They'll willingly open their pockets. So, I mean, as you rightly said, the initial discovery session that you have with the client, you put in questions with sets the objective, the purpose, how this is going to be driven, how it is going to be adopted into the business little by little. On a generic note, yeah. I mean, can you, and the audience we have with this podcast business owners probably, can you give them a starter of your questions that you think they should be ready with before the approach to designer? I would say maybe, I think the first thing that one can do is you definitely need a designer. Right. Right. Right. But I would say one of the first things to do is to let to go off the word designer. Okay. Oh, that's okay. And look at you need a partner. A partner. Right. So, when I walk into rooms, I look at these are potential partners for me on this project. Correct. Because the moment I bring in that I'm a designer first, you're a client. Yeah. It brings a hierarchy into play. Exactly. Where there's no really grow grounds for mutual respect. There's respect. Yeah. Mutual respect. Yes. Yes. Correct. Correct. So, I always approach it. I always would tell business owners first look at it from the point that I'm looking to partner with someone. Right. Right. Right. It is a window. It is a designer. Whatever is a service that you need. Right. But I'm looking for a partner. Why partner is because that's where I differentiate myself from a designer which I used to be earlier. Right. What a designer does. You've okay, I'm sitting for example, like the business owner is like, okay, I need a logo. Yeah. Okay. Write it down. I need a branding, ideology, all of those things in place. What I need I need a designer. Say you give the brief the designer does it. The way I approach it, there's no room for discussion in that space. Right. Right. When I approach as a partner, when you're looking to partner on the first thing that you can look at what problem am I trying to solve. Correct. Because if you're let's say an existing brand in the market. What problem are you trying to solve that differentiates your brand from what's currently in the market. Correct. Because that's your USB. Correct. And today consumers have no time to waste. Right. Right. Right. So what are you? Because that's B2C. Yeah. Yeah. It's highly competitive. Okay. Right. So in highly competitive market, your customer really doesn't have that brain part to say before he gets distracted by his phone. Yeah. I mean, in the entire firefighting exercise, especially since we work with this B2B companies. Most of them, I mean, I think a lot of people, you can say the truth. And the cool yeah, I'm just trying to sound like it's polite. I'm not a lot of people who started businesses 40, 50 years ago. Yes. And probably those were the days they would probably go to Mumbai to get their shop back. Yeah. Yeah. And on the way back, you know, they would sketch something on a paper and add some typical name, which could be a common noun, not even like a proper name. They cannot twist it. So for a designer, for a business owner who makes his own logo and he has a sense of, I mean, it's family. It's family. Like if you ask me, I mean, how does my son look? I say he looks very handsome. But if you ask my neighbors, I don't think so. Yeah. So how do you get a rational to clients when they say that this is my logo and I don't want to change the logo. Or I mean, or in other words, do you think that is a necessary that client should change their logo before they bring in their branding? Or that's why Gukimp first is a chicken or the egg. Yeah. Or as a brand consultant, you see that this logo is good. This logo needs to be taken ahead with obviously some tweaks. I mean, how would you advise business owners there? They come with that sense of a client. Yeah. And there's also coms in my next question that as I said, these guys will start the 30, 40 years ago. Now their children are stepping into the business and they probably want, yeah, they don't want anything out of it. They want everything new. So as a brand consultant, as you said, as a partner to the father and the son, I mean, how would you advise them on handling such a situation? Well, I think I would look at it this way. It's a reason I'm even in the room. Right. When they've called me. Yes. Because they know that there is a problem. Correct. Right? Yeah. Because if you've designed a logo and everything is going fine, I would not be sitting in the room. Correct. Right? So if they're going to call me or any brand design consultant, yeah, right? In the room. They know that there is something like. Correct. Now, obviously, as you said, it's a very touchy subject. It's a very touchy subject. Because the logo is like the family, especially the father, the grandfather, the grand father, I have this experience. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They are not really receptive to the change. If they don't understand, see, that's the past. Right? We're looking right now. We're sitting having this meeting because it's we're looking in the future. Exactly. Right? Yeah. They know there is a problem. Yeah. Which is why we're sitting and having this discussion. Because whether, as you rightly said, you know, whole generation is there, the new generation is now coming. Yeah. The new generation is way more aware. Right. So many times what I do is I let the new generation have their internal discussions with the old generation. Okay. Okay. Because no matter what I say, you know, I have that for group. No, it would be fun to have those. You know, be flying over and watch those conversations. But what I've also seen is it's just in terms of understanding. I think, I think the main thing is also to just that's where I think experience and expertise comes into. Yes. Right? Yes. It's in terms of when I walk in the room, I'm not looking to get the project on this fee. Correct. You know, there is always that the success, mentalities always, I'm walking in, I'm going to get this project. I'm going to walk out. I don't go in like that. I'm like, if I get the project great, yeah, provided we are a mutual fit. Correct. Right? And that should be the adoption you should take as a partner as a genuine consultant. So as a user, what part? It's a chemistry at the end of the case. Yes. Because otherwise at the end of the day, it becomes a torturous project when project stretch for so long, there's no compatibility here. Then the only thing that's a mutual thing here is the money, exactly, which in my experience, we are going to be painful also. Yes. So when it comes towards a, do you need to change your existing branding? I don't think that is always the case. Right. Because of where we are in today. Okay. With social media. Right. Social media is completely obliterated the same right now. Right. Right. It is what we talk in terms of your branding needs to be responsive. Correct. Correct. Your logo is great. Yeah. But how are all the other things associated with it? Your logo is just a face. Yes. How is everything else? How is your brand voice? Now when people hear brand voice, they assume that I'm talking just in terms of the language that is used in your communications. No, I'm also talking one on one interaction. Yeah. From your CEO to this person on the ground level. Yes. Do the communications match in terms of understanding your ideology, communicate in that way. I'm not saying that it's always going to be the case. But is there some assembly. What is a cohesive nature? That's what I'm talking about. When we come in terms of do you need to change the brand logo? Why are we talking about changing the brand logo first? That's my question that I put out. You say that we need to change. If you're not even approaching that topic, I ask other discussions. You've been around for the last 30-40 years. Now that you've called me into the room, what is the thing that you want to solve right now to take this further? Where are your blocks that you're finding, which is why you feel that you can't move further until we do these changes? Correct. When those discussions come in, because typically it's going to be sales, that's why any brand needs to change. It comes down to sales. How much money is coming in? How people perceive how the value, and that's what's going to decide their brand was coming in the market right now, how they eating into your market. Because maybe 30 years ago you were there. Right. But now it's oceanally youngsters are popping up brands like Nuretzbiz. It's getting eaten up. See what's happening at work so the consumer, because now consumers have options. They're not stuck. So everybody else is to pull up their source. So when it comes to that, it's like, alright, this is what our goal is for the next five years or next 10 years. We, who are the other brands that we admire, respect new ones, old ones? We've seen the changes over there. We want to be in that space. We want to grow in that space. We don't want to lose the legacy that we built in 30 years. So in that case, what I look is, then I look at the logo. I see and I don't lose immediately in the first meeting. I say based on that, I do research and then I look, alright, now based on what you've told me, how you want to move ahead. Right. Does your branding work for it? Will your branding support you? Or is it going to be a hindrance? Once I do that, that's when I'm going to come and tell you, hey, you know what, have you considered based on what you've told me? That this is how you want to move in the future. Rotaries. Since you've asked for my expertise, what I professionally feel is that going forward, this particular branding that has worked to the last 30 years, may be a hindrance for you going forward. Okay. And I'll give you a couple of examples of other brands. Actually, I wanted to ask you a few examples also. Yeah, it's like, so there was like, okay, so based in this conversation, I remember there was this brand called Ranjit Swassa. Right. It's a Heritage boutique spa, really. It's one of India's top spa vealies, up, nothing, I'm Ritsar. And I remember when one of the owners approached me and he just found my website. He approached me, he's like, right, we want to change our website, build a whole new website, everything. I was like, great, can I have a look at your branding? I know this was many, many years ago. Okay. I looked at the branding. Now, I already did the homework before, so I already asked him a lot of questions on how to call. We had a lot of discussions, everything. And then I looked at his existing website. Okay. But had to look on everything. Right. It literally looked nowhere close to what he told me. Okay. Okay. It looked for lack of a better word like a one star, two star hotel. But this is a place where the who's who globally would come to this place. Yeah. Right. So when I looked at it, I was not working because the branding does not make sense with what I'm looking at. And if you have to do the website for the branding history, so we had this discussion. So could this be put into a phrase called as pride of association? So when people want to be associated with the brand, they need to take pride. Yes. In fact, even when companies, people who buy a Mercedes, it's the association of Mercedes that brings in the pride. Many times it has nothing to do with actual product. So that when you talk about pride of association, as you rightly said, people need to create something where the end user feels proud to be associated with the brand. But Rajesh has seen, I mean, this is the story from the end consumer to the logo. Now this logo, the environment in which it's designed, in which it's a philosophy is created and it's surrounded the brand guidelines, elements. Somewhere I've seen especially in the B2B sector. Because I've worked very closely with engineering and manufacturing companies. I've seen that B2B business owners, they love the B2C branding. It's very aspirational for them. So they're probably making probably a screw that goes into a bicycle. But then his aspiration is around probably a McDonald's logo. Or maybe a Mercedes logo. So this pride of association, how does somebody trickle it down into the organization where the owner has seen that the vision I have for my business has been catered through. Kated to this design. Now I want to pass it down to my down line. And people tell the person at the shop floor should feel proud about it. So what do you suggest business owners, how can they cultivate this pride of association in the organization? Like probably this particular case study you say. It's a relation from the end user to the guy who's seeing the logo, making a decision I want to go here. This looks like a company non-negotiable luxury brand. But the business owner there probably has this internal challenges. So how does he cultivate that sense of pride of association within his organization? Actually I would like to ask you that. Since you have a few in these seconds. Because of B2B, I'm probably into B2C. Yeah, I love. So now that you've been associated with so many years in B2B. I think frankly there should be nothing else but a carat and stick mechanism. Explain. Carat and stick mechanism is once you put out a guideline. It has to be communicated to everyone in the organization. Probably the HR or an auditor, a brand auditor, maybe the designer or the brand consultant could even do an yearly auditor or a six-monthly auditor. And do surprise checks in terms of probably just ask one of these guys. Can you open the PowerPoint presentation? And you see that it's not complied to. You introduce a stick mechanism. But somebody who's an amazing way. Can you elaborate on the stick? I mean stick mechanism is rather compact. In fact, if you define a carat mechanism, the stick mechanism is about wanting to get there. When somebody is incentivized, probably if you say cops. Now a lot of cops used to be extremely obese. Right. So probably what the top guys did is they incentivized the guys who were fit. But what you of that did not have to put a stick mechanism to the guys who were obese. So that gap or that human default that we have, probably that will solve it. So you put in a model of carat and stick. It's what I think. I think that is one way. I've done something more nasty in my organization. So we have, we have, now things are getting juicy actually. Now let's go. We have a time attendance machine. So when I bought the machine, nobody should do this. It's very cruel. But I'm just a nasty example. We said that people who do not check in at 9 o'clock into the office, we kind of moderate half the salary. But yeah, I mean that's what is done in a lot of companies. So for a proprietary or for a very small organization or a small mindset like mine, the first thing is attendance machine. How many of these are there? After 3, 4, 5 salary, cut out the cost of money. That's why this is a very nasty, but did you have a wooden check? I would have re-friend that one. I wouldn't say that with a small mindset. I think it's just a very smart mindset. Because at the end of the day, even if you are sold proprietor, where you've invested, at the end of the day, you've invested the money to grow your business. You have to get your staff growing as well when you come up on time with Panchwari all of that. Exactly. I mean it just makes sense that you need to recover the money also. Somewhere at the end of the day, it's like a puttumani. Then we started taking this deduction and we started celebrating it. Now what happens when you're celebrating in a January, when you have your. Wait, wait. Celebrating meeting, it's not really shows up late. You're celebrating. Because the salary has been deducted into the HR system. So there is a stick mechanism here. So basically that person who came late is funded the lunch for everybody else. Everybody. And this is probably your way to. I don't know, I think it probably feels so sorry about himself. Look at that. How is the response? See, it does not really work work. But as long as people understand that like if you go to a gym, I think it's a mindset that nobody wants to get disciplined. It's our human tendency of not going disciplined. We are like basically born scavengers. We never were born with an idea of. I think everybody loves discipline. Everybody. If they do it on their own terms. So that basically means no discipline. No, no, no, no, I beg to default. It is like see, I go to the gym. But I go out of my own accord. Right. And that's a discipline. It's a mentality that you. That's because you're lucky to do it. You have a love to gym. Let's be clear. Okay. Whoever's watching. Like I've been giving up in the last three years. But if you met me three years, you'd see me. Yeah, yeah. I was malnourished. Yeah. So I had incidences happen when I asked me to draw a focusing. Yeah. Okay. What do you need to do to grow? So these incidences, which I was speaking about. I mean, how would you put it in terms of. This company adopting. Like I told you the way I see it. Why is this put a strict. Carrot and stick mechanism. The other is. If you had to bring in this belief into the employees. I mean, what would be your. Well, it's long term. It's definitely not a one-eyed. Yeah. So there should be like workshops on brand association. Yes. I definitely know. And this has been communicated to me by a couple of brand owners. While they also have, they are proud of the brand that they own. People who work for them also love to be associated as you said, right of association with this great brand. For example, if I say if somebody walks into the room and they say, "Oh, I work for Google." Or I work for Apple, not just Apple in India, I work for Apple in California. You instantly there is a shift in the person who's heard it. So that kind of a nurturing should be developed in the organization through putting up case studies. And little bit of case studies. Yeah, case studies, but see, I would say, while that is also there, I would say don't just have boring, bland workshops where you call in people and don't do anything. I would say do team building exercises. So do you think that as we said that this has to be an account based relation, the brand consultant should kind of maybe look at it as an initiator to ensure that the new, new collaborator when you say account base, what do you mean? Like we've done the logo now. People have seen the new logo. Yeah. Maybe after a week or two, the entire temperature of, we got something new dies long. So maybe after a quarter, every quarter, there are no workshop where various case studies are highlighted. And how it like if you, if I think if employee or internal stakeholder of the company is well dressed, he maintains the discipline of the brand, he also gets respect in the market. He's less negotiable. So if we are able to percolate that in the form of a workshop or something, we're probably that would, that is one way. The reason I say workshops and team building activities is because I use this word in terms of humanize your brand. Correct. Especially when you're in B2B and when you're speaking about automotive engineering sectors, at least what I've seen is it's technical. Yeah, right. Yeah. In terms of and you've got workers and you've got your staff, your employees, everybody knows what they need to do. And it's very, for me what I've always seen is growth happens when you're also in a space that is more happy, not worried or stressed. So can you humanize your brand? Okay. When I say humanize, you can do it through workshops. Here. You can do it through team building activities. Right. Right. Like engineering, say industries. When I say engineering is just a word for B2B. Do they take staff for team building activities outside that B2C brands do? Yeah. Do they do that? You know, I, I, they don't do that Rajesh because what happens is the, the, the kind of ecosystem in which these B2B businesses are built, they don't work on the concept of MRP. So what happens when there is no MRT? Whatever they are paying for, they are marketing sales branding. It comes as a cost to do that. Unlike if it's a B2C brand with this MRP, you know, a lot of cost accountants, they put in the acquisition numbers into the MRP. So they know that this portion of the budget is dedicated to branding, acquisition, marketing. Can I say something that is a little controversial? Sorry. Can I say something that is a little bit? Yeah. So there was this case that was done in the US. Okay. I don't know if it's B2B, but yeah, it was pretty much like B2B, you could say. Where this guy decided that he's the owner of this company, right? It's called its staff in the US. I forget the name of the name. What he decided to do is he decided to bring his, he was earning a million plus, cut it down to 75 grand. Okay. And he made that 75 across all employees. Okay. So a new entry will get probably 15,000, 30,000 and jumps up. But in the highest, you are going to make 75. Okay. Right. The whole market pretty much put him down. Like, oh, you are just, you're going to go shut down, your business is going to shut down. It's not going to work. That's not how it works. You know, you're employing the boss. Can't be at the same level. He's defied all expectations because productivity increased. So that's how he said, like, when can you take your staff out? So the reason I say, I understand where it's coming from. Yeah. So from an MRP perspective. MRP? But what you need to see. Yeah. But you need to know, you guys, you know, they basically have to work in a reverse pricing model. I understand that. Yeah. But here's the thing. If you're looking at long term, if you're looking your company to be running for long term. Yes. This, consider this as investment. And I think this is probably the world's favorite FM station. It's called WII FM. It's WII FM. It's a work for me. Yes. Exactly. It comes back to five years, then, you know? Yeah. Correct. Do you want to have stuff that comes in happy because when you've got happy stuff, productivity, it's all really, really. Yeah. It is irrespective of your B2C or B2B. It's irrespective. Take personal. Right? Would you work if you're really stressed if you don't like coming to the company? It's work because it's been my business. No, I wouldn't. I wouldn't do that for better. I wouldn't be, I'm not saying the stress completely goes because workforce does bring in stress. Yeah. But if you are happy to come to the company to work with it because you know you're also taken care of it and you're not just a token number on the employee list, your productivity is going to go up. That's my approach. Yeah. When you're doing your work, if you're happy in a happy state of mind, you know that this company cares for me. I'm not like going to be booted out or something or making, no, this company does care. My productivity is going to increase. So that should come out through the brand-dice. Right. And I'm branding. What do you call it? Communication. Communication. Right? The staff. Owners. Owners should probably. You're in first. Here to understand that. Yes. Here to apply. Yes. That first factor. Humanize and approach with empathy. Exactly. That's what a humanized. Absolutely. Here. Empathy. I mean, you've been around for it in 17, 18 years. And you are a very successful designer. Okay. People look forward to working with you. Thank you. So what is your advice? It's a long way to go. Yeah. But what would be your advice to the generation that's coming up who aspire to be a designer like you. I'm in 2022. 2022. I mean, the generation that's probably maybe a graduate who's only gone to college like a work from home college. Maybe you never know. Yeah. So what would be your advice to designers who want to aspire to, who aspire to be successful? I mean, what, what are the do's and do's? Get clear on why you want to get into this field. Yeah. But I'm asking you this because a lot of these designers who come into the market, it goes back to our first question. They've not understood the meaning of passion and a relatable skill. Yeah. They probably are carried away by the glitz of the line or probably, I mean, maybe they have a notion about how things are. So what would be the real advice you'll give them? You see, I think you can see passion. Yes. Nobody needs to tell you about it. It's right. If a person is passionate about design, they know it. They'll do whatever is required to be done. I can also know when a person is not at all passionate about it. Right. Because I get a lot of resumes from interns, people who are working in the field that they want to job. And I can see if they've sent me a CV or they've sent me a portfolio. Oh, correct. That's what I'm going to find. Yeah. I instantly know you're not passionate about what you do. Right. Because I'm a design firm. I really, in the creative field, who sends a CV? Right. Right. I don't have, I've never sent a CV before. Because I'm from here. It's like, do you want to see my CV? Do you want to see the creativity that I can produce? Right. Because creativity is not taught in school. So if you send me a portfolio, now, OK, there is something here. Now based on that portfolio, I'll get to see, OK, where is your passion? What's your skill level? Right. So I think in 2022, which has changed the game for a lot of people since last year, since the pandemic hit. Yes. And it was a few still studying. Right. So there are two sections. One of people, wait, which section are we talking about? Students. Students who have, I mean, I would actually put this, date this question a little more before. Like, as soon as people come to the company, they are 12th. Yes. They have a national value that they get into the creative string. And they pick up a graduation. Then they do a post-graduation. But eventually, either they're not able to make it. Or it's a very graded upgrade. Some of them become self-employed eventually. Yeah. Because of lack of acceptability at a group level. That's what drives self-employed. I'm an example. For real. So when you get self-employed, then your reality kicks in. That's where you always meant to be your own boss. Which you're always like. I think same, you're unemployable. This was also the context of my second question. The line between creativity and practicality. So what would be your advice to these kids? See, I would say with students, if you've come out of 12th. And you choose to get into a design line, a creativity line. First thing in my experience is obstacle is your parents. Yes. Because it's not the field that everybody is like, oh my god, you're going to do so well. Now things are changing. Because with influencer, community, which is going to be better. Parents are big. beginning to understand, not completely still. It's still like, okay, this is really gonna give you the engineering kind of income, the doctor kind of income. That is still prevalent, you know, as much as we try to be very woke and say that's not really there, it is there actually still. So if they choose to get into these places, then I know that their first obstacle is taking care of. That means they are very passionate about it. They've been very creative before. Their parents know that, yeah, this is the line that you wanna get in, the parents are aware about all of these things. If you started your studies, I would say in 2022, or 2021, the reason I keep focusing on that year is because the last 18 months have driven massive growth from social media. You really don't need to get into a college. Nothing bad against college is per se, right? But in terms of education, social media is the go-to place. There are sub communities within Instagram, LinkedIn, which is majorly into education for creators. Okay. So start, your education needs to be not just going to the college and chilling out after that. Have you chill time? But at the same time, can you be part of these communities? Can you get mentorship? I think mentorship is key because there are online so many. And when I say mentorship, it's not necessarily all the time you pay for mentorships. There are accounts that you can follow who are stalwarts in the creative field, whichever field you wanna enter into. Follow these accounts. So I always look at it because social media has got such a bad rep most of the time. There is this like, oh my god, you're just wasting so much time. Not necessarily if you regulate your social media. Mind your social media is heavily regulated, right? In terms of what I train the algorithm to show me what I want along. Okay. So if I'm spending five, 10 minutes on it, is it offering me value? That's how I look at it. So this brings to me, brings me to my last question. This is just a optional question. You just have to pick one option. Is branding a science or is branding a gut feeling? What is your option? If you had to put your finger on only one. That's tough, bitch. Okay. Let's see more more questions. (laughing) That's an oxy-born question. But okay, if push comes to shove, I'll see, branding is a gut feeling. Branding is a gut feeling. So it's a matter of the time. There is a book that I read called Brands' Abduction. Okay. A book of yours. Okay. It blew my mind. Brands' Abduction, Brands' Abduction. Okay. It blew my mind and it was just before when I was doing this particular project, Bazaarna, which is a snack brand that I've. Yes. And it's a very success. Yeah, it is. It is. I have the pride of association. I tell my friends. Oh, thank you. I'm a friend. Yeah, I've got so many responses like that, which has been great because it's been validation in many ways. Right. Because I'm not study design. I think that I've learned something. I'm something I'm passionate about. Because one of the founders of the brand was a brand strategist also. He gave me that book. Okay. And I remember I read it and I was blowing my mind because I was like, what the fuck? Like what? Sorry. Like what time I supposed to be? Because it is gut feeling at the end. Correct. Because your consumer does not have time to sit and analyze the science. Right. Right. But your branding has come through science. Mm-hmm. If you look at strategy, it's a form of science. Correct. If you look at the design aspects, it's a form of science. Correct. It's come from there. But from a designer perspective, I can look at all the research. You know, they'll say green is eco-friendly. Frick all the brands that are eco-friendly will be green. Right. That's bland and boring. Right. Right. It's not necessarily the case. Right. I can go with my gut feeling and design something that has nothing to do with that color, but still gives me the brand feeling. Correct. So when a consumer looks at it, that's eco-friendly. Right. So for me, I would pick gut feeling. Because that's how I approach it as a design. So maybe we put it like that. It's a gut feeling driven by science. That's it. Nice. So thank you, Rajesh. Thank you so much. And I'm very sharing your URL on the podcast. Yes. People can come and discover your work and get in touch with you. Thank you so much, Rajesh. Do visit B-E-J-O-Y-P-E-T-E-R. B-J-O-Y-P-E-T-E-R dot com. Just here connected.